NASCAR & the Big 3

[SportscarBruce]

Has any motor racing journalist taken an honest assessment of this topic based on the following points;

How much money in total has Detroit poured into NASCAR racing over the past 10 years at the team, track promotion, and sanctioning body levels (I would love to see this number)?

What has Detroit received in return far as tangible sales results, car development, and stature?

In this era of Detroit auto manufacturing on its deathbead while depending upon federal bailout and loan assistance, what exactly legitimizes the continued expenditure of marketing funds to the tune of millions of dollars into NASCAR by the Big 3?

Has any reporter in the employ of a major media organization dared to take this sacred cow by the horns?

[wbcobrar]

First of all , Ford has not recieved the string attached bail out money. As such they should be above this stupid game that power hungry socialists love to play . That game is "I gave you money ,therefore I get to decide how you spend it ". That "sacred cow" you refer to is called private buisness spending money how they see fit . The only ones Ford needs to answer to is their board , and their shareholders . As for Chevy an Dodge , I personally believe they are in the same boat , but they invited the vampire(the government) into their house , and as such are in the grey area where every idiot who lives in this country gets to pretend to know how to be the CEO of a major corperation . If you feel the need to look for millstones around the necks of the big 3 , look first at the bloated union contracts .

[SportscarBruce]

*kneejerk* ^

You talk about socialist agendas, OTOH when I see propaganda guised as reporting the news and issues that confront us that irks me.
This isn't about unions. Try answering the questions.

[Alexamateo]

Factories have been supporting racing ever since Henry Ford hired Barney Oldfield to pilot the "999". How much have the recieved back as far as tangible sales results, car development, and stature? I don't know, They must recieve some sort of ROI, otherwise there wouldn't be a more than 100 year history of their support.

Companies have to advertise and market, even companies in the midst of a bankruptcy, or in this case recieving government assistance, and yes we now have the right to question their participation, since they (at least GM and Chrysler) are now essentially in receivership.

As far as what was spent in the past 10 years, that is irrelevant. They weren't receiving assistance at that time. If there have been any articles written pertaining to this issue, I am unaware of it.

[SportscarBruce]

Factories have been supporting racing ever since Henry Ford hired Barney Oldfield to pilot the "999". How much have the recieved back as far as tangible sales results, car development, and stature? I don't know, They must recieve some sort of ROI, otherwise there wouldn't be a more than 100 year history of their support.

You are lumping in NASCAR's recent history with the entire history of the sport. As a student of racing history I find that comparison laughable. Advocating an absolute, across the board withdrawl of spending marketing dollars on racing is not what this inquiry is about. In fact, in the event (however unlikely) that NASCAR's common template/misnamed Car of Tommorow philosophy was replaced by another, one that paid homage to that history you eluded to, one with tangible connections to the maker's product, then the questions would not be asked.
http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/e-news/uploads/1/image41877_a.jpg

Truth of the matter is the identically bodied, gasoline fueled, analog ignitioned, carbureted, old-tech suspensioned COT has no connection to anything the Big 3 has to offer. This is 1960's technology the Big 3 are spending on in pursuit of public recognition and showroom sales. In addition, the sameness that the sanctioning body is so eager to utilize in order to keep the racing close absolutely ruins the brand to brand differentiation which is a vital element in motorsport-driven marketing.

At this point the entire arguement for continuing the Big 3's relationship with NASCAR strikes me as an effort to protect an industry that neither gives back to the Big 3 nor appreciates its decades-long investment history. At its core this is a leach on the back of the auto industry that it no longer can, or should, support.


Companies have to advertise and market, even companies in the midst of a bankruptcy, or in this case recieving government assistance, and yes we now have the right to question their participation, since they (at least GM and Chrysler) are now essentially in receivership.

Not only as a racing fan, but as a taxpayer, I absolutely have the right.

[SportscarBruce]

For review, stock cars as effective marketing vehicles for manufacturers
1972
http://www.mopardealer.com/_borders/marty_robbins_1972.jpg
2008
http://www.sporttours.com.au/images/bathurst4.jpg

Ineffective;
http://phoenix.fanster.com/victorylane/files/2008/11/nascar.jpg

[wbcobrar]

I completly agree that the questions we ask , and the questions we dont want asked are the *kneejerk* responses that shine a light on our perspective. There are those among us who believe large corperations (the big 3,for example) are causing all the problems in the world today. The thrust of this thread seems to imply that the automakers have waisted large sums of money in NASCAR , and other forms of motorsport and must be maid to account for why they think this is justafied . Leaving Ford out of this(since as I noted earlyer , they have not recieved " bail out $" )the remaining big 2 could show the huge advertising plus . A quick Google search showed that the first 13 races averaged over 6 million viewers per race , with a high of 10.2 mill watching Datona , and a low of 3.74 mill for the All star race . Thats a lot of people seeing a representative of the product compete at high level . Don't you think that some of those millions may be motavated to bye based in part by fan devotion and brand loyalty, I know a few that do ! As far as technical innovations , I'm not an expert but I'd guess there is some informaton gleened in racing that flows back to the company,probably more so in sports car racing , but I'd be willing to bet NASCAR does some of that to. I've answered that asked question , but I still assert that they don't need to . Do we ask people who recieve food stamps to not dare spend money on beer ,or cigarettes,or big screen TV's? Obviously not . Maby there are some who think we should attach these strings to our "generosity". In fact there is a word for those people . SOCIALIST. Now as for the unions . Why is it that a car produced in america by Toyota costs $2000 less to make than a car made in america by the big 3? .... Must be NASCAR's fault,or greedy exeutives.

[RaceFanStan]

....... There are those among us who believe large corporations (the big 3,for example)
are causing all the problems in the world today .......
There are also "those among us" who believe the oil companies started the economic snowball rolling downhill ...
while others believe the banking giants ripped us off creating the stock market crash ...
let's not forget Bush's war against Sadam which strapped our country's economy ...
plus don't forget Bush's greedy friends ripping-off the taxpayers in the "reconstruction" of Iraq ...
many factors contributed to the economic woes we are suffering now ...
it boils down to greedy men seeking quick wealth & to hell with the USA economy. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

I think the US automakers are caught-up in the economic downturn but they did NOT create it ! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[SportscarBruce]

There are those among us who believe large corperations (the big 3,for example) are causing all the problems in the world today.

There are those who believe when a bank reaches a certain scale it becomes "too big to fail". Does that line of thinking exist among the formerly independent turned subservent racing media when it comes to NASCAR Inc? I believe so. In fact, in the realm of objectivity and fairness in reporting its the least objective of all media subjects.


A quick Google search showed that the first 13 races averaged over 6 million viewers per race , with a high of 10.2 mill watching Datona , and a low of 3.74 mill for the All star race . Thats a lot of people seeing a representative of the product compete at high level . Don't you think that some of those millions may be motavated to bye based in part by fan devotion and brand loyalty

And what percentage of these actually take from what they saw on the track Sunday and apply that to their vehicle purchasing decisions Monday? Brand loyalty went it comes to the grocery shelf is one thing, a big ticket item like a car is quite another.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I have always thought NASCAR's benefits to advertisers were a little exagerrated but on Dave Moody's show on Sirius 128 today he pointed out that the one race deal Tony Stewart had in the Nationwide race for Hendrick had an interesting effect. Tony was promoting Rick Hendrick's used car website for offlease and used cars and this ONE appearence (albeit a win) in the car caused traffic on that site to jump 5000%. Now that maybe isn't translating into car sales, the numbers are not in for that but there is an effect.

As for the Big 3, Ford isn't on the bail out so they are out of the conversation. Should the US taxpayer be questioning GM and Chrysler? Yes.....but the last thing you as taxpayers should want is some pinhead that hasn't paid his taxes ( isn't that the story on half the guys Obama has tried to give cabinet positions to?) who doesn't know his lug nut from his fuel injector tell the car makers how to build cars and run their business? If you think the people running GM and Chrysler are idiots, you just WAIT until your US government starts mucking around in Detroit.

If I am a US taxpayer I am against the bailout all together. Nothing good will come of this. At some point, even the big 3 have to be prepared to succeed or fail. This bailout is bad news for how people in Detroit will be building cars. By the time the politicians get done, not only will NASCAR be losing two car makes, but neither GM nor Chrysler will be building anything anyone will want to buy....

[Mark in Oshawa]

PS, My father is a GM retiree. He is likely going to see some of his benefits effected and his pension possibly as well. I have some skin in the game so I have no desire to see GM go down, but at some point, they either will or find a new investment and production strategy. Based on what I have seen and learned in my time going to a GM facility, I can tell you the mismanagement on the floor of your average big 3 plant equals the screwups by the unions but neither will compare to a government run apointtee telling carmakers how to build cars.....

[SportscarBruce]

If you think the people running GM and Chrysler are idiots, you just WAIT until your US government starts mucking around in Detroit.

I was a big proponent of getting Roger Penske involved in the government as Car Czar, that would place someone at the top who understands the auto industry, turning around businesses, motorsport, the value of technonogy, and he's someone with political capital. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

[wbcobrar]

I'm a big proponent of getting government out of the problem solving buisness . I realise some of your tax money went into the pocket of 2 detroit automakers,and now your all exited about picking someone to tell them what to do , but please realise the corperate tax rate in this country is staggering. If anything in my opinion the owes the big three $$$$$.

[SportscarBruce]

I'm a proponent of getting successful businessmen involved in the government who earned their place through hard work, leadership, and vision. Old-school captains of industry, people like Perot and Penske, as opposed to the current crop of sellouts, crooks, and trust fund babies.

[muggle not]

If I am a US taxpayer I am against the bailout all together. Nothing good will come of this. At some point, even the big 3 have to be prepared to succeed or fail. This bailout is bad news for how people in Detroit will be building cars. By the time the politicians get done, not only will NASCAR be losing two car makes, but neither GM nor Chrysler will be building anything anyone will want to buy....
But you're not a U.S. citizen and most U.S. citizens are for keeping GM solvent. Not keeping them solvent is not an option. Make no mistake, the U.S. auto industry will be back and profitable and the U.S. will lead the world out of the global recession.


I was a big proponent of getting Roger Penske involved in the government as Car Czar, that would place someone at the top who understands the auto industry, turning around businesses, motorsport, the value of technonogy, and he's someone with political capital. Unfortunately that didn't happen.
Penske can't run a good Nasacar team. He is the last person I would want involved in the big 3 industry.


I'm a proponent of getting successful businessmen involved in the government who earned their place through hard work, leadership, and vision. Old-school captains of industry, people like Perot and Penske, as opposed to the current crop of sellouts, crooks, and trust fund babies.
Bush brought in businessmen and they were the biggest crooks of all. Remember good ole boy "Lay" and Enron.

[wbcobrar]

I'm a big proponent of government getting smaller not larger . Those who think that if we just appoint the"right"people to office and give them lots of power to "change" things the world will be a better place are fooling themselfs . The old saw power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutly . A wise man once said government is'nt the soloution to our problems , it IS the problem . I agree with mark , if your mad about the bail out $ call your congressman , senator , and president and ask them what the **** are you doing with my money . If they are honest (Ha Ha !!!)they'll tell you that their using your money to get more power . If for some insane reason you could convince me that another layer of burocracy in the form of a "car czar" was a good thing , I may agree that Roger Penske or someone in his vein was a fair selection . But the stooge they had tabbed was some former union goon. If hard work ,leadership ,and vision are traits you admire start a business and emulate those traits. If your successful hire employees who share those traits , who knows , if things go well enough for you the government can start stealing from you too ....

[muggle not]

Some people say that they are in favor of a small government, but then, they have little idea of what a small government is. They also say that they are against government regulating Companies, yeah right, look where it got us in the Financial industry.

[wbcobrar]

I am in favor of smaller government , there has never been a time in history of the galixy that government has been bigger or growing faster. The financial wreck ,especially in housing ,can be layed at the feet of our "dooin' good got no end" government!!! In an effort to increase their voting base these morons forsed lending institutions ,with the backing of Fanny May and Freddy Mac to give loans to anyone with a pulse and the ability to scrach a x into a piece of paper. And now that those chickens have come home to roost , we get more Do goodin' in the form of bail outs and hoof and tail pork packed omnabus spending packages . All this political hoohain' because some dood is hacked off that $3.87 of his taxes found there way into the pockets of Chevy and Dodge , and they support a form of motorsports that features 4000 lb. cars with 900 horse power carb motors that can only , apparently , turn left ! Well some of us like NASCAR , warts and all . And ,yes , it would seem more apprieate if , since his $3.87 in tax dollars were at stake , that a government burocrat should be appointed to make them spend his $3.87 on a form of racing he likes better.

[call_me_andrew]

Maby there are some who think we should attach these strings to our "generosity". In fact there is a word for those people . SOCIALIST.

How is attaching strings socialist? Nationalist maybe, but socialism would come with no strings attached.

If these companies did go into chapter 11 restructuring, they would quickly be forced into chapter 7 liquidation. A bankrupt company doesn't have to honor warranties. No one would buy a car without a warranty. The whole point of the bailout was letting these companies go through restructuring without calling it bankruptcy.

[wbcobrar]

Fans of socialism always see themself as helping ,but they are really just about manipulating behavior . As for Chevy and Christler no one is buying their cars now anyway . The biggest flaw in their buesness model is labor costs , bankruptcy is their only way of changing that . How many trillions are you willing to give them to continue to operate at a loss ? And why wont you adress the union issue ?

[Jag_Warrior]

Has any motor racing journalist taken an honest assessment of this topic based on the following points;

How much money in total has Detroit poured into NASCAR racing over the past 10 years at the team, track promotion, and sanctioning body levels (I would love to see this number)?

What has Detroit received in return far as tangible sales results, car development, and stature?

In this era of Detroit auto manufacturing on its deathbead while depending upon federal bailout and loan assistance, what exactly legitimizes the continued expenditure of marketing funds to the tune of millions of dollars into NASCAR by the Big 3?

Has any reporter in the employ of a major media organization dared to take this sacred cow by the horns?

Good questions. I've read a number of articles over the years that tracked or estimated the spending of automakers in motorsports. Here's a fairly recent article which estimates GM's NASCAR spending to be at $85 million, down from $125 million.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/14/AR2009021401520_pf.html

I'm sure there are other articles which speak to the aggregate motorsports spending of the Big 3. Honda is surely the hands down winner (at over a billion dollars "served" in F1 alone), but I don't recall seeing numbers on the Big 3 and/or NASCAR over a ten year time horizon.

As far as what Detroit (and now, Toyota) has received in return, I believe that's MUCH harder to quantify... in fact, I think it's impossible to quantify an actual ROI, if it's based on tangible, incremental sales at the margin. Everyone seems to fall back on the old "sponsor exposure value". Does that reflect reality? I don't know. Does it have any real value? I don't know. Can it be reflected on an income statement or balance sheet? Not really.

Car development? In ALMS, we could talk. But on the NASCAR side, I'm not aware that the automotive OEM's have gained anything of note in the past decade or so. Some automotive suppliers have gained cyclical data relating to components and fluids. But because NASCAR puts so many limits on electronic data collection, F1 and ALMS remain better test beds, even in those areas, IMO. Maybe Goodyear has gained some sort of data from its participation, but I'm personally not aware of anything there either.

I can't answer your question about what legitimizes these expenditures. They certainly must continue to market their brands, if not particular vehicles. But in light of their dependence on the U.S. taxpayers for survival, what amount is too much? I don't know.

[Jag_Warrior]

The biggest flaw in their buesness model is labor costs , bankruptcy is their only way of changing that . How many trillions are you willing to give them to continue to operate at a loss ? And why wont you adress the union issue ?

It's not so much (current) labor costs as the legacy costs, specifically those costs related to retiree healthcare. And yes, that does have to change... one way or another.

Chapter 11 is one way of addressing the current dilemma. But as I've explained on other boards, unless there is DIP financing available, Chapter 11 (reorganization) may become Chapter 7 (liquidation) rather quickly. As the availibilty of DIP financing has fallen by 70% or more (especially on large amounts) over the past 12 months, that option probably isn't there for GM, or even Chrysler right now. IMO, the best option would be a sort of pre-packaged Chapter 11 with the DIP financing guaranteed by the U.S. Treasury.

The reason that I believe this would be the best option is, if done right, it would not necessarly require direct financing from the Treasury, but would allow GM (and Chrysler) to restructure its fixed obligations, while not disrupting the supply base... which if that collapses, most of the major OEM's in the world will be affected to some degree. GM and Chrysler in Chapter 7 (or a messy Chapter 11) will collapse the supply base, which will drag down Ford (first) and cripple Toyota, Nissan, Honda and any others that build in the U.S., Canada and Mexico. People tend not to realize that you cannot ship or sell a car if it is missing so much as a single chassis bolt or a lug nut. Even the most basic tool transfer (to a different supplier) takes 3-4 months. And with hundreds of suppliers knocking on death's door right now, it wouldn't take much to bump more than a few into the grave... so there would be few places to transfer those tools to. So there would likely be massive supply chain disruptions across what was left of the industry.

There are around 6.5 million Americans receiving unemployment benefits right now. With a collapse of the auto industry in North America, add at least another 2 million to that number. That in itself would be expensive. To say nothing of the ripple effect through the rest of the economy. So my hope (with some selfish motivation) is that the industry can and will be restructured in the most efficient and cost effective manner.

I've seldom been on the same side of any issue with the UAW. And while I believe that organization has a major role in where the Big 3 find themselves, no one at the UAW had anything to do with designing the vehicle or engineering the manufacturing process for the Pontiac Aztec (among other duds over the past 10 or 15 years), or making the product mix decisions that caused Chrysler to be almost totally reliant on pickup trucks and SUV's. There is almost no way to get around my experience that when you have a "bad company", you likely have "bad management". There might be a number of other contributors as well, but you most definitley should be looking at the decisions made by management.

[muggle not]

Turn your sound up.

http://thefiftiesandsixties.com/CarsWeDrove.htm

[Mark in Oshawa]

But you're not a U.S. citizen and most U.S. citizens are for keeping GM solvent. Not keeping them solvent is not an option. Make no mistake, the U.S. auto industry will be back and profitable and the U.S. will lead the world out of the global recession..

I am for keeping them solvent but I think GM needs to go Chapter 11 if for no other reason to put the fear of god into the UAW and some the morons in management there that have turned this bloated carcass into such a well of red ink. AS for me being NON-American, it is first my opinion, and understand I am saying this even tho my father worked for GM for 13 years and gets a partial pension from them. I wouldn't want to see anything happen to that but I have lived in this GM town most of my life and have been in those plants. GM needs more than government money my friend....


Penske can't run a good Nasacar team. He is the last person I would want involved in the big 3 industry..

Penske has won everywhere BUT NASCAR, and has always made money on all his business ventures. Not being able to recognize racing talent doesn't mean Roger doesn't know efficiencies and business models.


Bush brought in businessmen and they were the biggest crooks of all. Remember good ole boy "Lay" and Enron.

Yes..and it was Bush's justice department that brought them to justice for crimes committed in the late 90's when Clinton was in office. Where was Janet Reno and her staff? Having a Nap?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm sure there are other articles which speak to the aggregate motorsports spending of the Big 3. Honda is surely the hands down winner (at over a billion dollars "served" in F1 alone), but I don't recall seeing numbers on the Big 3 and/or NASCAR over a ten year time horizon. .

Honda has gone nuts. I have never really figured out why f1 budgets EVER made sense to anyone in a boardroom. I would suspect the Big 3 are spending 50 to 75 million on NASCAR. The teams need their big sponsors besides the car makers so you have to think most of the big teams are averaging about 3 to 5 million per car in support from the big 3.


As far as what Detroit (and now, Toyota) has received in return, I believe that's MUCH harder to quantify... in fact, I think it's impossible to quantify an actual ROI, if it's based on tangible, incremental sales at the margin. Everyone seems to fall back on the old "sponsor exposure value". Does that reflect reality? I don't know. Does it have any real value? I don't know. Can it be reflected on an income statement or balance sheet? Not really. .

I agree with you there but someone in Detroit and in Tokyo believes it so there must be some empircal data somewhere that says it works.


Car development? In ALMS, we could talk. But on the NASCAR side, I'm not aware that the automotive OEM's have gained anything of note in the past decade or so. Some automotive suppliers have gained cyclical data relating to components and fluids. But because NASCAR puts so many limits on electronic data collection, F1 and ALMS remain better test beds, even in those areas, IMO. Maybe Goodyear has gained some sort of data from its participation, but I'm personally not aware of anything there either..

NASCAR may not allow electronics on the cars on race weekends, but on test days they were wiring the cars up from one end to the other. Also realize there is nothing even with the current testing band that stops the teams from testing at manufacturing test facilities such as the GM proving grounds in Milford Michigan or Chrysler's oval in Chelsea. Also know that the technology gained from all of this and shock dyno work may be helping in suspension and shock research.


I can't answer your question about what legitimizes these expenditures. They certainly must continue to market their brands, if not particular vehicles. But in light of their dependence on the U.S. taxpayers for survival, what amount is too much? I don't know.

Marketing is keeping your name in the forfront. I think it was a false front the last two years but to have pulled out of NASCAR two years would have caused the buying public to think the company was about to go out of business. So it is putting on a brave face....

[wbcobrar]

to be honest "justafying" a racing budget in any series , at any time , is something of a fools erend. If one looks at anything in life ,and makes decisions in purely logical terms ,in my opinion , what a brutally boaring ,worthless existance they would have . This countary was founded on principalls that placed lifes decisions in the hands of its citicens , rather than its leaders . We are the land of the free and the home of the brave, danmit. Every law thats written , every burocrat put in place , every decision made to interfear in our lives , no matter how well intended ,erodes this self evadent truth . I'm not an anarchist by any strech of the imagination but enough is enough .

[muggle not]

to be honest "justafying" a racing budget in any series , at any time , is something of a fools erend. If one looks at anything in life ,and makes decisions in purely logical terms ,in my opinion , what a brutally boaring ,worthless existance they would have . This countary was founded on principalls that placed lifes decisions in the hands of its citicens , rather than its leaders . We are the land of the free and the home of the brave, danmit. Every law thats written , every burocrat put in place , every decision made to interfear in our lives , no matter how well intended ,erodes this self evadent truth . I'm not an anarchist by any strech of the imagination but enough is enough .
Yeah, lets do away with laws and regulations. Every person should have a six shooter on their hip and the fastest draw wins. We should be free to do what we want.

[Jag_Warrior]

NASCAR may not allow electronics on the cars on race weekends, but on test days they were wiring the cars up from one end to the other. Also realize there is nothing even with the current testing band that stops the teams from testing at manufacturing test facilities such as the GM proving grounds in Milford Michigan or Chrysler's oval in Chelsea. Also know that the technology gained from all of this and shock dyno work may be helping in suspension and shock research.

That's possible. I just don't know. Within the areas that are still open (not clamped down by the laws of "spec racing" that's all the rage now), there may be some track/street crossover. Maybe brakes, maybe shocks, maybe wheel bearings... I'm not sure. I'm aware of the exchange of technology from race track to street within the Corvette (and Cadillac XLR) program. I know that Subaru, Peugeot and Mitsubishi brought much of what they learned in WRC to the street. Maybe some of the suppliers are learning from their NASCAR involvement and improving their offerings? The OEM's I'm not so sure about. I'm pretty well removed from that circle of information now, so I don't know. If Hoop98 sees this, he may know of some devlopments.

[SportscarBruce]

to be honest "justafying" a racing budget in any series , at any time , is something of a fools erend.

No, it is not always a "fools erend".

A video is worth a thousand words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfS32l92MFs





If one looks at anything in life ,and makes decisions in purely logical terms ,in my opinion , what a brutally boaring ,worthless existance they would have . This countary was founded on principalls that placed lifes decisions in the hands of its citicens , rather than its leaders . We are the land of the free and the home of the brave, danmit. Every law thats written , every burocrat put in place , every decision made to interfear in our lives , no matter how well intended ,erodes this self evadent truth . I'm not an anarchist by any strech of the imagination but enough is enough .

I read that three times and still can't make sense of it. Expecting a struggling business to continue pouring millions of dollars into a motosport marketing black hole that has zero technical relevence and not even the slightest sales impact....why again, because this is America dammit?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am of the opinion that with all the doom and gloom of last year some people are seeing the full fields for Cup races and thinking this is not going to be so bad but I think by the end of the year Chevrolet and Dodge may be FORCED out of any promotional spending in NASCAR (read team support) by the US gov't if they are as tough with dictating terms of bailout money as they seem to be with the wastrels that run AIG.

[muggle not]

Full fields of "real" teams will be a thing of the past after the next few races.

Watch the field fillers.

[wbcobrar]

No, it is not always a "fools erend"
I agree with this ,however I was willing to conceed this point to focus on (,apparently poorly,) what I coincider to be the larger issue ,which is the erotion of freedom for business and individuals in this country .





I read that three times and still can't make sense of it. Expecting a struggling business to continue pouring millions of dollars into a motosport marketing black hole that has zero technical relevence and not even the slightest sales impact....why again, because this is America dammit?
So you apparently view the GM and Chrystler business model to be broken ,on this we agree . What we dissagree on is what the problem is , whos problem it is and what to do about it . Where you seem to think the money spent on NASCAR is the biggest black hole , I think Among the numerious other management issues ,the current labor agreement is the largest stone to overturn . Where you think government intervention is the only way out of this mess , I think the government can only make a bigger mess . I guess you think billions after billions of our money and an army of "really smart government burocrats " can fix the problem . The current government accountents are beginning to realize that bankruptcy may be the only way to return (at least GM) to solvency , to which I say thank you can we have our billions which apparently only averted the innevitable for a few months back ? And the lessons learned will be forgotten and the next boogy man will be met the same way .

[slorydn1]

Yeah, lets do away with laws and regulations. Every person should have a six shooter on their hip and the fastest draw wins. We should be free to do what we want.


Go ahead.....Make My day!!!! :p

Just remember, I'm an awfully good shot, and Slo2 is even better :D

[SportscarBruce]

Where you think government intervention is the only way out of this mess.
Where did I say that? In the event the government is going to do this I believe someone with knowledge of the industry and a record of success should run things.

In all, that is merely a sub-topic (at best) to the main issue of discussion, justifying wasted millions of taxpayer dollars to prop up a motorsport that does ZILCH for the manufacturer's bottom line or product line.

Nice try at topic diversion though.

[slorydn1]

I gotta admit, I'm more of a free-marketer myself. I'm all for letting a business do what it's gotta do to survive or go under. If they would have built better cars to start with, then we wouldn't be in this mess now.

But, like someone said before, to let the whole industry go under, I just can't see that. The ripple effect will be much deeper than a few hundred billion dollars here or there. I think there needs to be more strings attached to the money they get, like throwing the bums out that let the companies get down as bad as they did. As for using Nascar as a marketing tool, I say go ahead and let them continue that. Its all about the eyeballs. Yes, I agree whole heartedly that "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is and has been dead for years. As all of you who know me know well, I have only pulled for two drivers the whole time I followed nascar. And they both drove the "GM-Goodwrench Chevrolet" and as such I only pull for Chevy drivers. You know whats ironic about that? The two vehicles I drive now are a 2004 Ford F-150 and a 2001 Mercury Grand Marquis
I haven driven a Chevy since I sold my 1994 Chevy S-10 to my parents in 2005, which they subsequently traded in for a Toyota Tundra. Yet, still in all of that, If I could afford to buy a Corvette, I would, but alas, I can't.
And until my personal economy gets better, then I won't be able to do my part. But, if the companies can still advertise too people who can, maybe they will buy, and help get us out of this mess....Sponsering nascar is probably more effective than a whole bunch of newspaper ads we use to line bird cages with (if we even look at them at all before tossing them)...
Just my opinion, anyway...

[SportscarBruce]

. As for using Nascar as a marketing tool, I say go ahead and let them continue that. Its all about the eyeballs. Yes, I agree whole heartedly that "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is and has been dead for years. As all of you who know me know well, I have only pulled for two drivers the whole time I followed nascar. And they both drove the "GM-Goodwrench Chevrolet" and as such I only pull for Chevy drivers. You know whats ironic about that? The two vehicles I drive now are a 2004 Ford F-150 and a 2001 Mercury Grand Marquis

But the eyeballs don't translate into car sales, and THAT is the bottom line. When NASCAR turned its back on 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday' in order to shift focus from product engineering towards driver marketing they boxed themselves into a corner. Cheering for a driver comes first, the brand he drives is merely sentimental issue, as your example illustrates. Thus, the actual return on marketing dollars is minimal at best, zero at worst. I believe the truth is closer to zero.

[muggle not]

I don't believe that anyone on this forum has the slightest idea of whether there is a return to the manufacturers from the Nascar association and it is all speculation. I have seen absolutely no evidence from any member to back up any claim made........show me statistics.

On the other hand I have seen statistics that show Motorsports including Nascar generates sales for the Manufacturers and is a better form of marketing than other means of advertising.

[SportscarBruce]

I don't believe that anyone on this forum has the slightest idea of whether there is a return to the manufacturers from the Nascar association and it is all speculation. I have seen absolutely no evidence from any member to back up any claim made........show me statistics.

.

If the statistics were favorable you'ld see them.


On the other hand I have seen statistics that show Motorsports including Nascar generates sales for the Manufacturers and is a better form of marketing than other means of advertising

Link

[muggle not]

If the statistics were favorable you'ld see them.



LinkYou can purchase the statistics that show detail on the different types of Motorsports and the return on Sponsorship, etc. This information is not inexpensive to buy and is highly regarded. Nascar also has a complete analysis of Sponsorship and Marketing info for the teams use. This info is available to team owners. I happen to have a copy somewhere in one of my boxes from days past and am not about to post the confidential info on a forum.

Do your research in depth and subscribe to one of the in depth marketing reports. You aren't going to get info on a forum that is meaningful on this subject. Assuming that all people that run the Big 3 Auto Companies are stupid is a wrong assumption.

[SportscarBruce]

Cut and paste the survey data, and please include who commissioned it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bruce...you really think the guys at Toyota are so dumb they would join the Big 3 running off a cliff by joining NASCAR if they didn't see some value in sales? The marketing surveys you want likely are commissioned by the Big 3 and unlikely to ever be made public....

[slorydn1]

Cut and paste the survey data, and please include who commissioned it.

Although I too would like to see it, you know good and well that he can't do that. If it was a paid survey like that he can't just post into an open forum without facing possible legal jeopardy. The purveyors of those reports would probably like to be able to sell a few more. Anyway, even if he did, Stan or Mark would delete it faster than a Ryan Newman Bristol qualifying lap

Further more, Muggles is one of the few on this board that that has proven time and again that he has the kind of integrity that if he says he has in his posession (or has seen) those kind of reports, you can take it to the the bank. He and I have had our disagreements over the years, but I always knew where he was coming from. He is one of the few on this board who truly is a racer.

[RaceFanStan]

Cut and paste the survey data, and please include who commissioned it.


..... Muggles is one of the few on this board that that has proven time and again that he has the kind of integrity that if he says he has in his possession (or has seen) those kind of reports, you can take it to the the bank .....
I concur, muggle not's comments are always based in fact & his points valid.
It is best to accept muggle not's wisdom & realize he does know of what he speaks. :D

I am sure that if ANY auto manufacturer felt it wasn't to their advantage
to put their brand names on the stockcars they would have pulled-out long ago. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[muggle not]

I concur, muggle not's comments are always based in fact & his points valid.
It is best to accept muggle not's wisdom & realize he does know of what he speaks. :D

I am sure that if ANY auto manufacturer felt it wasn't to their advantage
to put their brand names on the stockcars they would have pulled-out long ago. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif
You guys stop blowing smoke. :D :D

[SportscarBruce]

Although I too would like to see it, you know good and well that he can't do that. If it was a paid survey like that he can't just post into an open forum without facing possible legal jeopardy. The purveyors of those reports would probably like to be able to sell a few more. Anyway, even if he did, Stan or Mark would delete it faster than a Ryan Newman Bristol qualifying lap

Further more, Muggles is one of the few on this board that that has proven time and again that he has the kind of integrity that if he says he has in his posession (or has seen) those kind of reports, you can take it to the the bank. He and I have had our disagreements over the years, but I always knew where he was coming from. He is one of the few on this board who truly is a racer.

If you can't use it, don't include it in the rebuttal.

[Sparky1329]

If you can't use it, don't include it in the rebuttal.

Oh baloney. What is this - a court of law? I've know muggle not a long time. If he takes the time to post information it's gold as far as I'm concerned.

Carry on. :D

[SportscarBruce]

Oh baloney. What is this - a court of law? I've know muggle not a long time. If he takes the time to post information it's gold as far as I'm concerned.

Carry on. :D

Baloney. Anyone who subscribes to marketing data is not the everyday fan, not even an everyday regional racer. Two, the value of keeping such data secret disappears the longer time goes on.

Try carrying on a real debate with a "well, my information says otherwise but I can't show it to you" retort. Credibility disappears instantly.

And one more thing. I've personally supported production-based racing on the showroom floor to the tune of thousands of dollars. The year was 1988, the car was the Ford Thunderbird. One of the last real stock cars, a record breaking revolutionary aero design. Won on Sunday, sold on Monday.

[muggle not]

Baloney. Anyone who subscribes to marketing data is not the everyday fan, not even an everyday regional racer. Two, the value of keeping such data secret disappears the longer time goes on.

Try carrying on a real debate with a "well, my information says otherwise but I can't show it to you" retort. Credibility disappears instantly.

And one more thing. I've personally supported production-based racing on the showroom floor to the tune of thousands of dollars. The year was 1988, the car was the Ford Thunderbird. One of the last real stock cars, a record breaking revolutionary aero design. Won on Sunday, sold on Monday.
1. What is your point?

2. LOL, I've spent $50,000 for an engine for a race car, but that is immaterial also.

[SportscarBruce]

1. What is your point?

2. LOL, I've spent $50,000 for an engine for a race car, but that is immaterial

In relation to the topic it definitely is.


also

No.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sorry Bruce. People will take Muggle's word on this one, not just based on his past performance but you are telling us that all the car makers currently spending millions in NASCAR are idiots pouring money in a black hole.

Again, think about it. The smartest car marketing and sales machine in the auto industry today is arguably Toyota. They entered NASCAR about 5 years ago with the purpose of going to the top in NASCAR. Why? Why did they pull out of sportscar racing? Why are they involved in F1 where they spend a LOT more than any of the big 3 and Toyota will spend combined on NASCAR? They are doing this because it promotes brand image and THAT leads to sales. Win on Sunday Sell on Monday isn't just about the actual car being raced, it is in having a corporate image out there infront of the sporting public EVERYDAY. It is advertising. What GM or Ford spends on NASCAR could be rerouted into commercials and buying time buy programming on TV and likely wouldn't be as effective and they wouldn't be attaching themselves to celebrity in the same manner.

Racing sponsorship for the car makes works. Despite all the stupidity on the engineering and management side of the big 3, their marketing and sales people know their damned jobs well enough to know if they spend the money in NASCAR it will help them in their jobs. It isn't written down in one survey, it is being done all over the world by successful car companies; Toyota being one.....in NASCAR.

[SportscarBruce]

Thanks to the first American seated on Toyota's Board of Directors the company bit on his business plan to NASCAR-ize Toyota's brand while out-trucking and SUVing the Big 3.

During the gas crunch of last summer Toyota's total sales plummeted 21%, with the Tundra falling 50%.

Toyota USA did just what they set out to do, they became an Americanized auto company, and like their counterparts sales are in freefall. The only reason Toyota is in better shape than their NASCAR shipmates due to a larger warchest funded by pre-existing hybrid and luxury sedan lineups offered internationally.

If NASCAR racing sold any vehicles over the past decade it was trucks first for the country/bass boat crowd, SUVs second. The time for that is over, as is the time for the Big 3 doing business as usual in every regard, motorsport included.

[SportscarBruce]

their marketing and sales people know their damned jobs well enough to know if they spend the money in NASCAR it will help them in their jobs.

Job protection. Thanks Mark! You've nailed it. :)

[muggle not]

Thanks to the first American seated on Toyota's Board of Directors the company bit on his business plan to NASCAR-ize Toyota's brand while out-trucking and SUVing the Big 3.

During the gas crunch of last summer Toyota's total sales plummeted 21%, with the Tundra falling 50%.

Toyota USA did just what they set out to do, they became an Americanized auto company, and like their counterparts sales are in freefall. The only reason Toyota is in better shape than their NASCAR shipmates due to a larger warchest funded by pre-existing hybrid and luxury sedan lineups offered internationally.

If NASCAR racing sold any vehicles over the past decade it was trucks first for the country/bass boat crowd, SUVs second. The time for that is over, as is the time for the Big 3 doing business as usual in every regard, motorsport included.
Surely you don't really believe that is the reason for the sales decline in the Auto industry throughout the world. Have you 'heard" the word recession, which btw, is pretty bad at this point in time. Perhaps the reason the banks are failing is also due to the Big 3 auto companies.

I think this discussion is over.

[SportscarBruce]

Surely you don't really believe that is the reason for the sales decline in the Auto industry throughout the world. Have you 'heard" the word recession, which btw, is pretty bad at this point in time. Perhaps the reason the banks are failing is also due to the Big 3 auto companies.

I think this discussion is over.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself. And the truth.

I'll stop now because the truth always wins out, even when silenced.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There is nothing to fear but fear itself. And the truth.

I'll stop now because the truth always wins out, even when silenced.

You were not silenced. You have given up because you cant prove your accusations.

As for Toyota going in the toilet because of the big trucks and SUV's did it ever once occur to you that Toyota were building those to take market away from the big 3? Did you ever hear the business theory of building what people want? It is why car companies build everything from 40mpg econoboxs to gas sucking SUV's. To cater to every consumer in the marketplace. Where the car companies have taken in the head is that the market changed far faster than the 3 years needed to bring new product to market will allow. We went from seeing the big 3 make money on SUV's and pickups two years ago ( the majority of their profits) to getting killed now.

Toyota will be fine because they were already taking away most of the market in small and midsize cars. They entered NASCAR around the time all of this was happening. This isn't abou job security, this is about selling a brand and image. Selling a Japanese brand to middle America and building the vehicles they wanted. They were doing a damn fine job of it to until 4 bucks plus a gallon gas came along and the market changed. Toyota still has no problems selling Yaris, Prius and Camry's......

[kelvin88]

Has any motor racing journalist taken an honest assessment of this topic based on the following points;

How much money in total has Detroit poured into NASCAR racing over the past 10 years at the team, track promotion, and sanctioning body levels (I would love to see this number)?


Has any reporter in the employ of a major media organization dared to take this sacred cow by the horns?


Autosport covered it on the 26th of February, rather than copy the article, i will just highlight some of the figures quoted.

NASCAR makes $300 million-per-annum profit.

Ford, Toyota, Dodge and Chevrolet contribute $50,million in ad revenue between them per year. That really is not alot of money in the big scheme of things and the couldn't even buy the exposure they get for that, let alone all the other perks that come with NASCAR. Dale jnr and Jeff Gordon earn more than that between them a year. You gotta remember that the $20, million it cost to put a car in NASCAR is rarely footed by the manufacturer of the car.

If all the Manufactures went bust tomorrow, I think NASCAR would just carry on!

[slorydn1]

No, I've given up posting on this topic in order to avoid placing the management into the same position as repeated in various other forums, one in which they're pressured into acting as censor by PR people hiding under various screennames who represent an influential, valued client.

If assurances are offered that this will not happen I'll be happy to counterpoint the half-truths, mistruths, and blatant attempts at either ending the discussion or muddying the waters with off-topic politics.

Nope, Nascar a'int running this board....at least I don't think so :rolleyes:

They havent banned me yet, anyway :p

[SportscarBruce]

Bruce...you really think the guys at Toyota are so dumb they would join the Big 3 running off a cliff by joining NASCAR if they didn't see some value in sales? The marketing surveys you want likely are commissioned by the Big 3 and unlikely to ever be made public....

Comparing Honda to Toyota, yeah. Attempting to dominate and already saturated and soon to pop pickup truck bubble along with a NASCAR culture image makeover was dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Losses for the 1st Qtr of 2009 exceeds GM's number, which is ironic considering that last year Toyota was thumping their chest about surpassing GM's US market share

TOKYO - Toyota Motor Corp. lost $7.7 billion (765.8 billion yen) in the January-March quarter — a bigger loss than General Motors reported — resulting in its worst fiscal year since the Japanese automaker was founded in 1937.

To send a message of change, Toyota has turned to its founding family roots, tapping Akio Toyoda, the founder’s grandson, who at 53 is relatively young for leading a major conservative Japanese company.

Watanabe, whom Toyoda is succeeding in June, promised Friday more cost reduction and a focus on hybrids and compact vehicles to boost profitability. Toyota will work on ecological technology such as hybrids and plug-in vehicles toward long-term recovery, Watanabe said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30637861

[muggle not]

Comparing Honda to Toyota, yeah. Attempting to dominate and already saturated and soon to pop pickup truck bubble along with a NASCAR culture image makeover was dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Losses for the 1st Qtr of 2009 exceeds GM's number, which is ironic considering that last year Toyota was thumping their chest about surpassing GM's US market share

TOKYO - Toyota Motor Corp. lost $7.7 billion (765.8 billion yen) in the January-March quarter — a bigger loss than General Motors reported — resulting in its worst fiscal year since the Japanese automaker was founded in 1937.

To send a message of change, Toyota has turned to its founding family roots, tapping Akio Toyoda, the founder’s grandson, who at 53 is relatively young for leading a major conservative Japanese company.

Watanabe, whom Toyoda is succeeding in June, promised Friday more cost reduction and a focus on hybrids and compact vehicles to boost profitability. Toyota will work on ecological technology such as hybrids and plug-in vehicles toward long-term recovery, Watanabe said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30637861
Geez Bruce, any fool knows that the downturn in sales by Toyota, GM, Ford, etc was caused by Nascar. If not for their Nascar involvement their sales would be setting records. :rolleyes:

[SportscarBruce]

Geez Bruce, any fool knows that the downturn in sales by Toyota, GM, Ford, etc was caused by Nascar. If not for their Nascar involvement their sales would be setting records. :rolleyes:

Any fool knows the downward slope began before the credit crisis, it started in the spring of 2008 as fuel prices surpassed $3/gal. Toyota had sales lots full of Tundras and Sequoias and a waiting list for hybrids.

[e2mtt]

Any fool knows the downward slope began before the credit crisis, it started in the spring of 2008 as fuel prices surpassed $3/gal. Toyota had sales lots full of Tundras and Sequoias and a waiting list for hybrids.

A fool is someone who calls another a fool, while claiming to be able to predict the future. (Or rather claiming to, in hindsight, have predicted the present.)

There isn't any more waiting list for hybrids. Truck & large vehicle sales will return, after the current surplus of new & used vehicles is depleted, and credit & job situations have normalized. Toyota saw a market they didn't have covered, and moved into it. Much has been made of the poor timing, but I don't think they will stop producing the Tundra & Sequoia. Many people do need trucks and will continue to buy them, regardless of how much you personally dislike them.

Supporting racing is good business. Supporting sports in general has a good return on the advertising dollar. Although you may not think that anyone actually buys on Monday what they see win on Sunday, it does have an effect. Call it the "halo" effect, call it PR, or whatever, but having winning race teams is good advertising. For an automobile company, the dollars invested in racing are among the most effectively spent part of the advertising budget. (Although only one part of a complete advertising campaign.) I have also read studies that showed that NASCAR fans were the most loyal to sponsors of fans of any sport.

The unions and the US government are the two primary reasons why the big 3 automakers are facing bankruptcy. Managment is a distant 3rd, primarly because it is very difficult to attract good management to work somewhere with such poor potential for real success. More government involvement in GM & Chrysler is absolutely guaranteed to be bad for their business, and the longer and more deeply the goverment is involved, the less likely it is that they will ever be solvent & viable again. R.I.P. GM & Chrysler.

The idea that congress & the government will teach the US automakers how to be profitable is absurd to the point of hilarity.

[e2mtt]

...

...Watanabe, whom Toyoda is succeeding in June, promised Friday more cost reduction and a focus on hybrids and compact vehicles to boost profitability. Toyota will work on ecological technology such as hybrids and plug-in vehicles toward long-term recovery, Watanabe said.

...

This quote is either a calculated political statement designed to endear Toyota to the Obama administration (which does have the power to make Toyota's existance miserable & unprofitable), or an actual announcement of the begining of Toyota's failure.

More efficient & cleaner cars are a good thing for the planet. However, unless enough people want to buy efficient cars, and Toyota can make these cars profitable enough, this will be bad for the company. All good words & nice sentiments aside, you stay in business by giving the consumer what they want. If the consumer wants big or fast cars, you could succeed by give them more efficient big or fast cars. Refusing to sell big or fast cars will not bring success or profitability.

If the goverment steps in to make difficult or exorbantly expensive to buy big or fast cars, used vehicles will thrive, and the manufacturers will still suffer.