Is Auto Racing really a "sport"?

[drewdawg727]

I know it seems like a lame question, but my roommate and I had a big argument about this last night, and I would like to see what a group full of racing junkies like ourselves have to say about it...

My roommate claims that racing is not a "sport" because it does not, in his mind, have a combination of physical and mental abilities. Traditional sports such as baseball, basketball, football, and even cheerleading to him are "sports", but not racing.
He says that racing does take a lot of mental ability, because you need to know what line to take and you need to think about how to get ahead of that person in front of you. But the part we argued about is that it's not "physical".

He does not agree that it takes a lot of physical ability to steer a race car for 2 hours (give or take), and the funniest accusation he had was that racers get to "sit down", which sort of denies any physical abilities right there.
I immediately shot him down by saying that race cars do not have power steering, and it is not simple to just turn a steering wheel and sit back and relax.
"The car does all the work", contrary to bicycling where the person propels himself down the road, was another comeback.
And "there is no full body exertion" was the other big argument that he had.

Not only did he claim that auto racing was not a sport, but he made me out to be a fool that I thought it was one. His way is right, and that's just all there is to it.

What are yall's opinions?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Screw arguments. Take him to half an hour of karting.

[Rex Monaco]

What are yall's opinions?

List of sports:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports

[Rollo]

My roommate claims that racing is not a "sport" because it does not, in his mind, have a combination of physical and mental abilities. Traditional sports such as baseball, basketball, football, and even cheerleading to him are "sports", but not racing.

The Oxford English Dictionary says thus:
sport (noun) - 1. a competitive activity, game or passtime
Is Motor Racing competitive? I very much think so, and therefore satisfies the very definition of a "sport", however I somehow doubt whether you do cheerleading competitively.

or if you don't like that, the Merriam-Webster says:
sport (noun) - 1. 1 a source of diversion
I suppose that it could be argued that it is a diversion of sorts and thus upholds the definition.



Not only did he claim that auto racing was not a sport, but he made me out to be a fool that I thought it was one. His way is right, and that's just all there is to it.

Does he speak English? For it seems that he is a poor student of it. Furthermore I because in his ignorance he branded you a fool, I hold him out as a bigot under the very definition of that word; moreover a cad, a pratt, a git and all sorts of other very proper terms which through his insolence and deliberate ignorance he would also not know the meaning of.

[Alexamateo]

<H1 style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px">“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” Ernest Hemingway


</H1>
"Papa" Hemingway says if there's no chance you might be killed, it's only a game.

[Lousada]

In my opinion Autoracing is not a sport but an entertainment. This is because the regulations are made and enforced in such a way that it becomes most entertaining for the viewers.

[Lousada]

[B]</H1>
"Papa" Hemingway says if there's no chance you might be killed, it's only a game.

That was then. Today you can hardly say motorracing is very dangerous compared to a lot of other 'freestyle' sports.

[Alexamateo]

<H1 style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px">“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”

</H1>
Ernest Hemingway said this alluding to the fact if there wasn't a chance you might be killed doing it, it was just a child's game.

[Alexamateo]

That was then. Today you can hardly say motorracing is very dangerous compared to a lot of other 'freestyle' sports.

I deleted the original post because the quote was all messed up. I hope this one works.

"
There are only three true sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; the rest are merely games."

There are some who would say that racing today has lost some of it's panache because of it's hyperfocus on safety today. I am trying to be delicate, I am not saying we should return to the late 60's, but to a point I understand what they mean.

[garyshell]

He does not agree that it takes a lot of physical ability to steer a race car for 2 hours (give or take), and the funniest accusation he had was that racers get to "sit down", which sort of denies any physical abilities right there.
I immediately shot him down by saying that race cars do not have power steering, and it is not simple to just turn a steering wheel and sit back and relax.
"The car does all the work", contrary to bicycling where the person propels himself down the road, was another comeback.
And "there is no full body exertion" was the other big argument that he had.

You can easily settle this for $99. Haul his ass down to the nearest track that runs one of the Richard Petty "ride along" programs. After the five laps he will be exhausted and understand the physical exertion required just to ride along in the car, let alone drive the damn thing.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

Most motor racing has become safer compared to the earlier days.
I know, I an an ol' f--t and raced in the 60's. I 'lost' too many friends and people I raced against.
However it is still dangerous and both Drag racing and Sprint/ Midgets, especially non winged are still very dangerous.
Unlike I am now, when I raced I was in good physical condition and ran every day. This was long before physical fitness was the norm. I still lost 12 lbs. once in a 100 mile race on an extremely hot day.
There now have been several studies done on atheletes and their condition by various Universities (McGill being one) and professional race drivers ranked ahead of almost all other atheletes, usually up there with marathon runners as the most physically fit.
I played football, hockey, basketball and baseball the latter at semi pro level.
With todays' G forces, mental strain and heat drivers have to be fit. None of the traditional sports require such constant on the go pressure, not even soccer.

[dataman1]

Tell your room mate to go soak his head so that some common sense can penitrate his skull.

When does a race car driver go sit on the bench or in a dugout while his team mates finish an inning or the game? Anybody want a chew of tobacco while resting?

I helped with monitored studies on CART drivers in the 90's along with Dr. Steve Olvey and Dr. Terry Trammell. If your buddy wants an educated opinion he should talk to one of them. Heart rates, respiratory rates, calories burned, etc.. for a 500 mile oval rivaled that of running a marathon.

I agree with the post above. Show him by taking him to a competitive karting center and let him run for 30 - 45 minutes.

[Lousada]

A lot of stuff that is physically demanding is not a sport, I do not think that is a good argument.

[Lousada]

There are some who would say that racing today has lost some of it's panache because of it's hyperfocus on safety today. I am trying to be delicate, I am not saying we should return to the late 60's, but to a point I understand what they mean.

I understand you. It sort of relates to the point I made before. Racing, especially in Europe, has dropped all errors. When a driver makes a mistake it embarks on a journey through a large tarmac parking space before it rejoins as nothing happens. It reduces racing to nothing more than an exercise in my opinion.

[anthonyvop]

baseball, basketball, football are games not sports.

Not all autoracing are sports. NASCAR, Drag racing and IRL Oval racing are not sports.

F-1, Rally, Road-Course racing are sports. As is yacht racing, golf, Big Game hunting, Fly-Fishing among others.

Hemingway was wrong....Mountain Climbing is not a sport.

[Rollo]

A lot of stuff that is physically demanding is not a sport, I do not think that is a good argument.

A lot of sports are not physically demanding either. Curling, Cricket, Lawn Bowls, yet these have world championships. I do not think that is a good argument, either.

[CCWS77]

Racing could be a sport and in a pure form it would be. That is the racing I would like to see. The problem is that all the race series and sanctions choose to not organize racing like a sport at all. Athleticism, fortitude, and competitive skill of participants, are most definitely not the focus of professional racing. The sport has devolved into politicking about the rules, pandering for sponsorship and attracting factory backing are the most important skills.

The argument by the friend of the OP is perfectly natural given what the top level of racing actually is and how it works. You guys just want a free pass to pretend racing functions like a sport when it doesn't. Here is an idea: as fans, demand the series you watch functions like one. I don't see that happening. Fans are all to happy to eat up the soap opera drama that spews forth from F1, NASCAR and all the rest.

[SarahFan]

yes

[Civic]

In my opinion Autoracing/football/baseball/basketball/mixed martial arts/etc. is not a sport but an entertainment. This is because the regulations are made and enforced in such a way that it becomes most entertaining for the viewers.

Fixed it...

[Rollo]

What does athleticism, physical extertion, and or skill have anything to do with the definition of "sport"? Neither the OED nor the Merriam-Webster, include these thing in their prime definition.

It would be like trying to tell me that coffee is a bean, when in actual fact it isn't (they're actually cherries).

[garyshell]

baseball, basketball, football are games not sports.

Not all autoracing are sports. NASCAR, Drag racing and IRL Oval racing are not sports.

F-1, Rally, Road-Course racing are sports. As is yacht racing, golf, Big Game hunting, Fly-Fishing among others.

Hemingway was wrong....Mountain Climbing is not a sport.

So just exactly defines a sport if, from your example, basketball is not yet golf is? Or is this like the Supreme Court definition of pornography that one knows it when they see it?

Gary

[V12]

It all comes down to personal definitions at the end of the day, and it's hard to say who is right or wrong.

Me personally, I will class as a sport any activity which is carried out competitively between two or more individuals or teams, whereby the said contest can be measured by some unambiguous method.

So any form of racing or time-trialling, be it on foot, bike or motorised vehicle (time), the various team field sports like football, rugby, American football, hockey etc. (goals/points), cricket and baseball (runs), even true non-physical contests such as snooker, pool and darts - I class all of the above as sports, among many others of course.

What I do NOT class as sports are things such as synchronised swimming, diving, ice skating, gymnastics, skateboarding, etc. which are all subjective to judges opinion. Things like mountaineering are more activities rather than sports, unless there is some sort of competitive element (like first to the top or whatever).

Boxing I class as a borderline case, obviously in the event of a knockout, technical or otherwise, there is a clear cut winner, but when you get down to things like judges scorecards it gets tricky, although AFAIK they do have to mark according to clear cut strikes and what-have-you so a misinterpretation from a judge could be analogous to a dubious penalty/goal/corner/offside decision in football by the referee.

Of course my definition isn't perfect - for example I wouldn't class a timed crossword competition as a sport even though it meets my criteria, but I always give it as a rough guide whenever this question pops up in conversation (i.e. a lot!)


As for the question of whether modern-day, ultra-packaged, ultra-homogenised, ultra-marketed, ultra-commercial motorsport, with its spec series mentality, competition cautions, soap-opera-style drivers, reverse grids, success ballast etc. is a true sport...well that's a whole other issue :P

[Andrewmcm]

I always thought of a "sport" as being an event that the participants undertook with the knowledge that they might not get out the other side of the event in one piece (or at all). In an analogous manner to how shooting game is a "gun sport".

Perhaps that's a rather blood-thirsty way of looking at it, and perhaps it isn't such a relevant definition of "athletic or professional game-playing" events in the modern day. I suppose if we applied my definition of sport to modern times, the only sports left would be boxing and motor-racing.

[CCWS77]

Of course my definition isn't perfect

I think your definition is great. My point is that auto racing most definitely has become like synchronised swimming, diving, ice skating... The only difference is officials are judging the merits on the front end of competition instead of the backend. I don't know why fans fall for that and have the illusion it is still a pure competition. Bernie admitting Ferarri gets more money and is the favored team for example, I hear that, it is exactly the same as the judges in figure skating telling us how some imperceptable leg movement cost half a point. This is stardard operating procedure in racing to manipulate the rules of the game ahead of time and then pretend everyone had an equal shot. This it totally and completely not a sport and everything I hate about racing including the IRL

[cosmicpanda]

I always thought of a "sport" as being an event that the participants undertook with the knowledge that they might not get out the other side of the event in one piece (or at all). In an analogous manner to how shooting game is a "gun sport".

Perhaps that's a rather blood-thirsty way of looking at it, and perhaps it isn't such a relevant definition of "athletic or professional game-playing" events in the modern day. I suppose if we applied my definition of sport to modern times, the only sports left would be boxing and motor-racing.

And rugby. :D

[EagleEye]

Screw arguments. Take him to half an hour of karting.

Real karts like they use at Jim Hall Karting out in Oxnard, CA.

The certainly does not fully understand just how physical it really is.

Better yet, get him in a dirt sprint car...he would not last more than five laps!

[The instant classic]

Thats hard to say? cuz i always look at racing as drama,
and i always look at wrestling as a sport, but now its "sports entertainment"
i could say Nascar is "sports entertainment" cuz all the preshows the fights etc.. but on the other hand i cant call Nascar "sports entertainment" cuz when it comes down to it, calling Nascar "sports entertainment" that wolud mean i have to call IRL and F1 "sports entertainment" cuz they are all in the same sport, so is racing a real "sport"? i wolud say, drivers have fans, fan clubs, tracks have grandstands, we pay money to see them race, for myself i cant say,. i can give out ideas what do you guys think?

[Sonic]

Sport. Plain and simple.

I train hard and am still worn out after getting out the car. Mentally, physically, sometimes emotionally. Everything a sport should be IMO.

[Jag_Warrior]

The Oxford English Dictionary says thus:
sport (noun) - 1. a competitive activity, game or passtime
Is Motor Racing competitive? I very much think so, and therefore satisfies the very definition of a "sport", however I somehow doubt whether you do cheerleading competitively.

or if you don't like that, the Merriam-Webster says:
sport (noun) - 1. 1 a source of diversion
I suppose that it could be argued that it is a diversion of sorts and thus upholds the definition.

+1^

If the definition is met, then it is what it is. The definition is met, so...

Hopefully Drewdawg's roomate is learning a vocation that will allow him to work with his hands rather than his head.

[markabilly]

????

Racing is NOT a sport; it is a passion for those with the brains, the 'touch' and the burning desire and guts to do it right while living on the edge......if one needs it explained to them, they will never know

sport is pro wrestling, golf football and reality tv shows

[harvick#1]

its not a sport, its a way of life :D

[Rex Monaco]

Hopefully Drewdawg's roomate is learning a vocation that will allow him to work with his hands rather than his head.

That's funny! :D

[peasant]

A lot of sports are not physically demanding either. Curling, Cricket, Lawn Bowls, yet these have world championships. I do not think that is a good argument, either.

You can't lump cricket with curling and lawn bowls. Go and bowl fast for 10 overs, or run 4 2's in a row and tell me it's non physical. Hope I'm not the bowler when you you ignore a chance at a diving catch, or fail to chase down a shot that goes for 4 because you define it as non physical....

[Mark]

To my mind to be a proper 'sport' then whatever you are trying to achieve has to be able to be measured objectively and usually, electrionically (even if electronic means are often not used or needed).

So included in that would be motorsport, football etc. Not included would be ice-skating, gymnastics. etc.

[nigelred5]

Screw arguments. Take him to half an hour of karting.

It wouldn't even take an hour to change that opinion.

[nigelred5]

baseball, basketball, football are games not sports.

Not all autoracing are sports. NASCAR, Drag racing and IRL Oval racing are not sports.

F-1, Rally, Road-Course racing are sports. As is yacht racing, golf, Big Game hunting, Fly-Fishing among others.

Hemingway was wrong....Mountain Climbing is not a sport.


I fail to see how you make a distinction between sport and non-sport with the different types of racing.

[Wade91]

baseball, basketball, football are games not sports.

Not all autoracing are sports. NASCAR, Drag racing and IRL Oval racing are not sports.

F-1, Rally, Road-Course racing are sports. As is yacht racing, golf, Big Game hunting, Fly-Fishing among others.

Hemingway was wrong....Mountain Climbing is not a sport.
that doesn't really make any sence, how in the world did you come to those conclusens of, "sport" and "non sport" :confused:

[garyshell]

I fail to see how you make a distinction between sport and non-sport with the different types of racing.


Oh, I can see how HE would make such a distinction.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

To those who say drivers are not athletes and it isn't a sport, The Karting trip is all one needs to make that argument. For the more thorny question of whether the car is doing the "work" ( a good driver cannot make a bad car win ) one should also then question a jockey on the back of a horse? They are out for no ordinary ride and they can make or break the horse and in the end, win or lose, but I suspect the guy making the argument about race drivers wouldn't be dumb enough to say jockey's are not athletes and it isn't a sport.

Sport is any competition with physical stamina and skill requiring mental strategy and timing. That is racing along with a lot of other sports. If the guy wont accept any of the great arguments seen on this thread, get a new friend. Even my wife who really doesn't like racing much wouldn't NEVER say something so idiotic as saying Racing isn't a sport.

[nigelred5]

Oh, I can see how HE would make such a distinction.

Gary


Seriously, I want to know what kind of bizarre logic led him to his conclusions.

Fly Fishing???? jeezus. :rolleyes:

[jso1985]

its not a sport, its a way of life :D

You couldn't be more wrong... it's not a way of life, it's life! :D

The argument that it does not take mental or physical ability is weak.

As there's no definition anywhere that sports must be done "just for fun" and not get paid for it, then motorsport and all other big sports still qualify as sports.

[DexDexter]

I fail to see how you make a distinction between sport and non-sport with the different types of racing.

People (at least) in the old world tend to think that in sports the athletes or the sportsmen should look like sportsmen as well. Maybe the poster was referring to that. If you look at some Nascar drivers for example, they are clearly overweight, so it's hard for me and perhaps for many other people to see that type of racing as a sport, when you can be competitive without being in good shape. Having said that, sports are not always about physical stamina as stated above, but that's the impression many people have.

[nigelred5]

People (at least) in the old world tend to think that in sports the athletes or the sportsmen should look like sportsmen as well. Maybe the poster was referring to that. If you look at some Nascar drivers for example, they are clearly overweight, so it's hard for me and perhaps for many other people to see that type of racing as a sport, when you can be competitive without being in good shape. Having said that, sports are not always about physical stamina as stated above, but that's the impression many people have.

So participants 1.5m and 55 kilos dressed in an ascot and shooting jacket is the standard of what constitutes a sport? so what was the excuse for Indycars? I think you'll find just as many, if not more of the NASCAR and Indycar drivers are in just as good physical shape as the average F1 driver. 500 mile, 5 hour races inside of a 140 degree cockpit pulling 2-3 sustained g's every 6-8 seconds. naah, doesnt' require a bit of stamina or endurance. Most F1 drivers I've ever heard comment on driving on ovals sound like little girls. What, they drive 500 miles at 230 miles per hour with no run-off room? No kitty litter, only concrete walls and fences?? Oh no, that's far too dangerous. :rolleyes:

[DexDexter]

So participants 1.5m and 55 kilos dressed in an ascot and shooting jacket is the standard of what constitutes a sport? so what was the excuse for Indycars? I think you'll find just as many, if not more of the NASCAR and Indycar drivers are in just as good physical shape as the average F1 driver. 500 mile, 5 hour races inside of a 140 degree cockpit pulling 2-3 sustained g's every 6-8 seconds. naah, doesnt' require a bit of stamina or endurance. Most F1 drivers I've ever heard comment on driving on ovals sound like little girls. What, they drive 500 miles at 230 miles per hour with no run-off room? No kitty litter, only concrete walls and fences?? Oh no, that's far too dangerous. :rolleyes:

Oh you guys are just so sensitive, I'll give up.

[Garry Walker]

So participants 1.5m and 55 kilos dressed in an ascot and shooting jacket is the standard of what constitutes a sport? so what was the excuse for Indycars? I think you'll find just as many, if not more of the NASCAR and Indycar drivers are in just as good physical shape as the average F1 driver. 500 mile, 5 hour races inside of a 140 degree cockpit pulling 2-3 sustained g's every 6-8 seconds. naah, doesnt' require a bit of stamina or endurance. Most F1 drivers I've ever heard comment on driving on ovals sound like little girls. What, they drive 500 miles at 230 miles per hour with no run-off room? No kitty litter, only concrete walls and fences?? Oh no, that's far too dangerous. :rolleyes:
Yeah, I am sure nascar drivers are in as good a shape as F1 drivers, that is why 50 year old guys and guys who are 250 pounds heavy can still win in Nascar. Sure.

[Rex Monaco]

Yeah, I am sure nascar drivers are in as good a shape as F1 drivers, that is why 50 year old guys and guys who are 250 pounds heavy can still win in Nascar. Sure.

There are 300lb guys playing football. Are they out of shape too?

But out of curiousity what NASCAR driver is 250lbs? Usually TV adds weight, and I don't recall seeing anyone who's this heavy on TV or in person.

[Rex Monaco]

Yeah, I am sure nascar drivers are in as good a shape as F1 drivers, that is why 50 year old guys and guys who are 250 pounds heavy can still win in Nascar. Sure.

No NASCAR drivers are listed here at 250lbs.
http://www.automotive.com/auto-racing/nascar-sprint-cup/driver-profiles/index.html

But compared to the majority of short F1 drivers, these NASCAR guys are giants!
http://www.automotive.com/auto-racing/formula-one/driver-profiles/index.html

[garyshell]

People (at least) in the old world tend to think that in sports the athletes or the sportsmen should look like sportsmen as well. Maybe the poster was referring to that. If you look at some Nascar drivers for example, they are clearly overweight, so it's hard for me and perhaps for many other people to see that type of racing as a sport, when you can be competitive without being in good shape. Having said that, sports are not always about physical stamina as stated above, but that's the impression many people have.


Try arm wrestling with one of these "clearly overweight" drivers. Hope your heath insurance is paid up. Their upper body strength and stamina to prolonged exposure to high heat is crucial.

Gary

[DexDexter]

Try arm wrestling with one of these "clearly overweight" drivers. Hope your heath insurance is paid up. Their upper body strength and stamina to prolonged exposure to high heat is crucial.

Gary

Whatever you say Sir, Nascar drivers are all like Arnold in 1975. Happy?

[garyshell]

Whatever you say Sir, Nascar drivers are all like Arnold in 1975.

Only from the waist up. Because that is all that is REALLY necesary for them to compete.

Gary

[Garry Walker]

There are 300lb guys playing football. Are they out of shape too?

I guess those guys are not 6 foot 3 either and do not take part in a completely different sport. That said, I am sure the F1 guys are fitter than 300 pound football players.


No NASCAR drivers are listed here at 250lbs.
http://www.automotive.com/auto-racing/nascar-sprint-cup/driver-profiles/index.html

But compared to the majority of short F1 drivers, these NASCAR guys are giants!
http://www.automotive.com/auto-racing/formula-one/driver-profiles/index.html

If Tony Stewart is under 250 pounds, then I am Elvis and John Lennon in one person.


Try arm wrestling with one of these "clearly overweight" drivers. Hope your heath insurance is paid up.
GaryI have no doubt I could take on any of them and beat them without too much problems.

[garyshell]

I have no doubt I could take on any of them and beat them without too much problems.


Would that apply after you sat in a 120 degree car for three hours, going through banked turns at higher than normal G forces, wearing a nomex suit?

Gary

[Garry Walker]

Would that apply after you sat in a 120 degree car for three hours, going through banked turns at higher than normal G forces, wearing a nomex suit?

Gary

Yes.

[Rex Monaco]

If Tony Stewart is under 250 pounds, then I am Elvis and John Lennon in one person.

Tony Stewart is 5'9", have you ever seen a man 5'9" that weighs 250lbs?

Tony Stewart might not be 170LBs as the stats claim. But he's definitely not 250 either. He's somewhere between 195 and 210.

[Rex Monaco]

If Tony Stewart is under 250 pounds, then I am Elvis and John Lennon in one person.

They were on drugs, so that could explain it.

[Garry Walker]

Tony Stewart is 5'9", have you ever seen a man 5'9" that weighs 250lbs?
Yes.
Have you ever showered?



Tony Stewart might not be 170LBs as the stats claim. But he's definitely not 250 either. He's somewhere between 195 and 210.

Even if he was only 200 pounds (but I do not believe that for a moment), it would still mean he is quite fat.


They were on drugs, so that could explain it.

Tony Stewart ate Elvis :D

[garyshell]

Would that apply after you sat in a 120 degree car for three hours, going through banked turns at higher than normal G forces, wearing a nomex suit?

Gary


Yes.


If Tony Stewart is under 250 pounds, then I am Elvis and John Lennon in one person.


They were on drugs, so that could explain it.

Steroids maybe? ;)

Gary

[nigelred5]

Yeah, I am sure nascar drivers are in as good a shape as F1 drivers, that is why 50 year old guys and guys who are 250 pounds heavy can still win in Nascar. Sure.

Apparently you've never met any of them. Stewart is NO WHERE NEAR 250 lbs. Who's over 50 that competes regularly in NASCAR? Bill Elliott? TS may look that big, he's not. Mark Martin is one hell of an athlete.

Being a rex just to fit into a F1 cockpit isn't exactly my idea of "in shape". most of the F1 drivers are quite honestly emaciated just to be competetive with the scales.

[nigelred5]

I guess those guys are not 6 foot 3 either and do not take part in a completely different sport. That said, I am sure the F1 guys are fitter than 300 pound football players.



If Tony Stewart is under 250 pounds, then I am Elvis and John Lennon in one person.

I have no doubt I could take on any of them and beat them without too much problems.

Ladies and gentlemen...

ELVIS is IN THE BUILDING!!!!!! :)

[SportscarBruce]

Per ESPN2 racing is not a sport. Poker, billards, and strongest man competitions, those are sport.

In fact the quest for SPEED isn't even the principle facet of racing. the activity and vehicles of racing are mere props for advertising ad campaigns and on-track gambling shows.

It's enough to make your head explode...

[Mark in Oshawa]

It makes me laugh. Everyone points to Tony Stewart and says he isn't an athlete and he is out of shape. Tony is more "normal" than most of the NASCAR guys. Carl Edwards rides 100 miles in the Missouri summer just for fun and I can guarntee Mark Martin at 50 will be in better shape than all but a few people anywhere. That said, Tony is the target. Ok, so Tony is built like a tank. So was his hero, AJ Foyt. AJ won in every race car he ever sat in and was with Dan Gurney when they laid a beat down on the best f1 and sportscar drivers at LeMans in 67. AJ didn't look like the kind of guy you would want to mess with but he hardly was a little wee F1 pilot of today. The point is f1 drivers are like jockeys. Very small but very fit. They are tough. THEY are athletes, and I think racing is a sport as well. NASCAR drivers are bigger guys for the most part. Not all of them, but a lot of them. That doesn't diminish their athletic status when you consider you dont' have to be 5'5" and 130 lbs to sit in the car. Considering the g loads, heat stress and the length of races, the smaller man in NASCAR is almost having to bulk up so his weight loss during the race doesn't weaken him.

If anyone thinks NASCAR guys are not in shape, or you can do it into old age, to really win now in NASCAR you are pretty much done by your early 40's. Mark Martin is an exception but most over 50 drivers are NOT even close to competitive. There is a physical angle to it and the only reason some of the NASCAR stars are competitive into their early 40's is purely on their guile and experience. NASCAR is as much about acquired experience on the tracks and how to adapt the car as it is about stamina and strength. That said, the number of drivers winning past the age of 40 says that old age and trechery only get you so far.

[SportscarBruce]

Sitting in a sauna makes a fat man sweat, but sweat alone does not indicate exertion....

If someone organized an intra-motorsport triathlon which included a 2 mile run, obstacle course, and swim, it doesn't take a leap of logic to guess which series would come in last.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No Bruce it doesn't. but hanging onto a 850hp car with skinny tires at 190mph on a hot day for 5 hours is tiring. Bruce, go to a Richard Petty Driving Experience and run 8 laps and then tell me you don't have to have some form of physical training to run NASCAR ok? If you aren't feeling the effects you are lying or a bloody triathlete with no nervous system....

[SportscarBruce]

hanging onto a 850hp car with skinny tires at 190mph on a hot day for 5 hours is tiring.

Low G-loading with high pressure power steering to boot, nevermind the banking assist at every corner. Yes its tiring, but not nearly to the level experienced in other formats such as rallying, road racing (sport bikes especially so, I can attest), or even open wheel on ovals.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bruce...go do the Richard Petty Experience and then tell me how not tired you are. I wont disagree other forms of racing are pretty streneous, I wont even argue the power steering but I can also tell you that that power assist isn't much of an assist and there is no braking assist. The G loads are 2 to 3 g at Daytona and no other form of racing save rallying would you expect to see a guy sawing at the wheel for as long as they often do in NASCAR. The COT has forced these guys to drive the car loose and on the edge for hours on end. Also...if you are going to use these arguements, harken back to the 60's when the cars were heavy tanks and the drivers were blistered and worn out after a 500 mile race in the Southern sun. You only had to take a look at the likes of a David Pearson, Richard Petty and Cale Yarborough to understand these guys were pretty tough birds, even if they had no physical trait in common save their tolerance to heat, and their iron like grip.

Bruce, you obviously speak of NASCAR knowing not much about it....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sitting in a sauna makes a fat man sweat, but sweat alone does not indicate exertion....

If someone organized an intra-motorsport triathlon which included a 2 mile run, obstacle course, and swim, it doesn't take a leap of logic to guess which series would come in last.

I would put Carl Edwards in this race and he would more than give any of your athletes a run for their money. That just is besides the point though. If being in supreme shape was the first priority of a race driver search, a few people would be left off the list, and not all of them in NASCAR.

I point out that JPM was a heck of a f1 driver, and is a fine physical specimen but if being in shape made him the best driver in NASCAR, his results fail to show it. That said, he isn't out of shape by his old standards and he has said more than once that he was shocked at how much of a workout he still gets driving on ovals.

[Easy Drifter]

I know I have posted this before but I will do it again.
McGill University has conducted tests on hundreds of atheletes from a variety of sports over the course of years. Included are baseball players, football, hockey, soccer, tri atheletes, marathon runners and race drivers. Tests include endurance, heart rate, stress and general physical fitness. Race drivers generally came out on top. Two things stood out. Their heart rate was high for longer periods than normal in any other sport but reacted less to extreme stress than others tested. Generally they were also in the best overall condition of all atheletes along with the tri atheletes and the marathon runners.
These results have been backed by other studies that are less extensive by other universities.
When I raced back in the dark ages I ran all the time and this was long before physical fitness was a fad. I had participated in football, hockey (up to Jr. B level) and semi pro baseball. Racing was the toughest mentally and physically. A two hour stint in a car in an endurance race would leave me drained. Even a 100 mile race was extremely demanding. You never really relax, even on the straights. You are checking gauges, trying to figure out where you can get by someone or keep a faster car behind you. Where can you pick up a fraction of a second? I didn't have the G forces to deal with they do today either.
Racing is not duplicated on the street! You might take a corner or two really fast or go fast in a straight line but there is no way you can duplicate what happens on the track. Until you have driven in competition you do not really understand it and the stress and physical strain.
Wait until you hit an unexpected patch of oil at 140 mph in a corner where you have no room for error because of guardrails or walls. Once, and if, you sort that one out you shove your heart back down where it belongs but the one thing you do not do is back off to catch your breath or you will get passed.
That said there is nothing like the rush you get when you get a fast corner really really right. It doesn't happen all that often. You can take a corner hundreds of times and know you are just about there but once in while you will get it perfect. You might then will repeat it a few times but not every lap by any means.
I held lap records but I never got complete lap perfect. I cannot ever recall even getting two corners absolutely perfect on any one lap. The difference between really really fast and perfect is tiny but it is there.

[leopard]

I think auto racing is a sport, whether motorsport or autosport you are familiar with is a matter of name...

[raybak]

It's interesting how race and rally drivers come out in all the fitness tests.

I was lucky enough to participate in some tests at the Australian Institute of Sport(AIS) a few years back. Now most people who know me, know that I don't have an athlete's figure, but when it came to things like reflex and stamina I was in the top 5% of athletes who had done the tests.

I have found that when I am at the peak of fitness, the stage times come easier. You seem to think clearer and aren't as tired at the end of a stage.

So definetely racing and rallying are sports, especially when you have superb athletes such as Loeb at the top of the sport, also guys like Chris Atkinson who is extremely fit. Would be interesting to do a pinch test on the top competitors in the top racing and rallying categories.

Ray

[SportscarBruce]

Do they include MotoGP and WSB riders in those test? On a bike you spend very little time actually sitting on the seat. Either you're swinging your body from one side to the other, hanging off, pushing handlebars, going bolt upright, crouching down, shifting,...and this while doing all the mental exercises car road racers do.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bruce, I would say they are most excellent examples but that doesn't mean the guys in the cars are less as athletes. One only has to google some of the press clippings that Ricky Carmicheal has talked about his difficulty adjusting to the mental strain of driving a stock car. Ricky or "GOAT" (Greatest of all time) in Motocross was the best of the best, and in just top drawer physical fitness. Yet he isn't mopping the floor in NASCAR. Driving these cars is physical and mental.

[Chaparral66]

Bruce, I would say they are most excellent examples but that doesn't mean the guys in the cars are less as athletes. One only has to google some of the press clippings that Ricky Carmicheal has talked about his difficulty adjusting to the mental strain of driving a stock car. Ricky or "GOAT" (Greatest of all time) in Motocross was the best of the best, and in just top drawer physical fitness. Yet he isn't mopping the floor in NASCAR. Driving these cars is physical and mental.

This is a good point because not only does it confirm how much of a sport racing is it also acknowledges how different one aspect of the sport is different from the other. Michael Schumacher maybe one of the greatest racers of all time but if he went to compete in NASCAR, he'd get his butt handed to him until he made the adjustment to the new style of driving. He'd be better at the roadcourses, but not at the level he'd need to be, at least immediately. Schuey would be on a learning curve for a while, just like Juan Pablo Montoya was. JPM seems to be showing major progress this year on the ovals, and of course, he is now an absolute threat on roadcourses. Stock cars are much heavier than F1 cars, and it took him a while to get used to that.

IMHO, a sport is defined by its level of competition. On that basis, even golf has to considered as much (although I will never admit that to my friend Michael). As other people have said, whoever question racing as a viable sport, needs to go to a karting track and see what their arms feel like after 15-20 laps. Also, have them tell you what it feels like to get passed by someone twice your age or twice as young and see if their competitive juices don't start to flow.

[CharlieB24]

Before I even post my opinion, I thought it would be only right to introduce myself....I am the roommate who initially had the argument to begin this post. Although I am not a fan of auto racing, I found some of these arguments as very interesting, even challenging me to rethink my opinion. However some of the other posts are just outright ridiculous. I have really been enjoying some of these posts to a point where I thought I would join the thread myself and share what I thought. I feel that to my own opinion a sport would be defined as follows: "any competition that requires the combination of physical and mental ability to outdo one's (or a team's) competitor." Although not found in any dictionary, it is one that my friends and I have come up with upon constantly debating the true definition.

Although some of the posters have wasted no time to be critical, in defense I would have to say that some of you really have good arguments. I read them and I now can say that I am on the fence to whether or not I consider auto racing a sport. There were some previous aspects that I did not consider and some of you have brought up, and to that I must say good job in forming some good arguments. Now on to some of the more ignorant posts:


The Oxford English Dictionary says thus:

Does he speak English? For it seems that he is a poor student of it. Furthermore I because in his ignorance he branded you a fool, I hold him out as a bigot under the very definition of that word; moreover a cad, a pratt, a git and all sorts of other very proper terms which through his insolence and deliberate ignorance he would also not know the meaning of.

To this, I must say that I really enjoying the semicolon and the italics and bold font, very nice touch. But before slamming someone on there mastery of the English language, lets do a little something called proof reading (I tried to use some nice font touches for you). Lets review the sentence from "Furthermore I because in his..." I've read this a few times and it frankly does not make sense. My suggestion "Mr. Rollo," there are a few hundred languages out there, you might want to try another one.


baseball, basketball, football are games not sports.

Not all autoracing are sports. NASCAR, Drag racing and IRL Oval racing are not sports.

F-1, Rally, Road-Course racing are sports. As is yacht racing, golf, Big Game hunting, Fly-Fishing among others.

Hemingway was wrong....Mountain Climbing is not a sport.

Again, very interesting argument. Really it is just crazy to a point where I cannot even begin to argue with this guy. To me, this is a guy who watches way too much Blue Collar Comedy and not enough ESPN. I suggest maybe putting down the Cabela's magazine and go to the batting cage and tell me how it goes for you. If you consider a sport hiding out in a tree and shooting an animal, then maybe you need to come on out of those woods and watch some real sports.

I would love to address some of these other posts but unfortunately I do not have the time. I hope some of you keep posting your good arguments, they are a joy to read. And even some of the other ones (i.e. the ones quoted above) keep posting too, they are equally as fun to read, even reminding me how happy I am to have a rational head on my shoulders.

[Chaparral66]

Before I even post my opinion, I thought it would be only right to introduce myself....I am the roommate who initially had the argument to begin this post. Although I am not a fan of auto racing, I found some of these arguments as very interesting, even challenging me to rethink my opinion. However some of the other posts are just outright ridiculous. I have really been enjoying some of these posts to a point where I thought I would join the thread myself and share what I thought. I feel that to my own opinion a sport would be defined as follows: "any competition that requires the combination of physical and mental ability to outdo one's (or a team's) competitor." Although not found in any dictionary, it is one that my friends and I have come up with upon constantly debating the true definition.

Although some of the posters have wasted no time to be critical, in defense I would have to say that some of you really have good arguments. I read them and I now can say that I am on the fence to whether or not I consider auto racing a sport. There were some previous aspects that I did not consider and some of you have brought up, and to that I must say good job in forming some good arguments. Now on to some of the more ignorant posts:



To this, I must say that I really enjoying the semicolon and the italics and bold font, very nice touch. But before slamming someone on there mastery of the English language, lets do a little something called proof reading (I tried to use some nice font touches for you). Lets review the sentence from "Furthermore I because in his..." I've read this a few times and it frankly does not make sense. My suggestion "Mr. Rollo," there are a few hundred languages out there, you might want to try another one.



Again, very interesting argument. Really it is just crazy to a point where I cannot even begin to argue with this guy. To me, this is a guy who watches way too much Blue Collar Comedy and not enough ESPN. I suggest maybe putting down the Cabela's magazine and go to the batting cage and tell me how it goes for you. If you consider a sport hiding out in a tree and shooting an animal, then maybe you need to come on out of those woods and watch some real sports.

I would love to address some of these other posts but unfortunately I do not have the time. I hope some of you keep posting your good arguments, they are a joy to read. And even some of the other ones (i.e. the ones quoted above) keep posting too, they are equally as fun to read, even reminding me how happy I am to have a rational head on my shoulders.

Welcome to the Motorsport.com Forum, CharlieB24. I think you should get major props on coming in here and facing up to a group of people who are for the most part very passionate and partisan about motorsports. not too many people would have the cajones to do that. Cheers to you.

Let me just first say that forums like this aren't defacto english classes (or in any language for that matter), here the substance of an arguement is thoughtfully considered, not nit-picking over typing errors. Anybody reading your post will know how confidently you make use of the language.

Secondly, it's obvious from all the opinions enetered here that not only do people have differing views on whether racing is a sport, they may also have very differing views on what constitutes a sport in general. There is no right or wrong answer to that, there will never be absolute agreement. That is highly unlikely.

But for the purposes of talking about this on either a nationwide, or even world perspective, I think it is safe to at least acknowledge that if whatever "sport" we are discussing -- from football (soccer) to marathons, from baseball to skiing, and from tennis to hockey -- that has an abundantly large group of very passionate fans -- NASCAR in the USA alone has 75 million fans -- qualifies as a sport. As long as there is competition which makes for rivalries and partisan fans who choose sides, that makes it a sport. On that level, even chess qualifies.

This is just me, but I think anyone who is so harshly judgemental about another sport they have no interest or knowledge in makes suspect the person who makes that kind of a challenge. Me, I make no judgements about anyone's passion. Whether I like it or not, it is still a part of them, and I can respect, if not have nearly the same level of enjoyment, of what it is they find so much in.

CharlieB24, your challenge to our sport was initially through your roommate, so ordinarily would have much to say about what is a private debate. But you did come in here and address us all, so now your debate with your roommate has now become OUR debate. You have now seen how passionate we are about racing, as passionate as any soccer fan, as any Tour de France fan, as any college basketball fan. We would not insult you by insisting you like the sport at all, let alone as much as we do. But we would at least ask you to consider respecting it, since just about all of the people who partake in it have dedicated their lives to it, and have sacrificed much in doing so. In that light, motorsports is no different from any other sport you can think of.

Even golf. :)

[SportscarBruce]

Sport involves more than brawn, it demands brains. Athletics of and by itself is merely a person performing a difficult physical task, such as gymnastics or weightlifting. Sport combines physical exertion with complex cerebral thought processes such as formulating and executing a strategy, devising a path to victory no one else has thought of, ect. In motor racing finding that path involves much more than drawing up plays on the dry erase board, it involves pit strategy, teammate strategy, and the most advanced engineering this side of NASA.. Then factor in the mental courage element, the consequences for making the wrong decision. In the case of football that might mean a dropped pass or interception. In racing it can lead to immediate physical harm or death. Taken as a whole there is no greater, or more demanding, sport than motor racing.

[SportscarBruce]

Refer to this documentary on the sport (three videos will play in sequence);

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyJhKrHoQNc&feature=PlayList&p=E9D63C969BDDF0AA&index=0&playnext=1

[555-04Q2]

"Auto Racing" isnt a sport, its a passion!!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Auto racing? :confused:

Motorsport is a sport

[Chaparral66]

Sport involves more than brawn, it demands brains. Athletics of and by itself is merely a person performing a difficult physical task, such as gymnastics or weightlifting. Sport combines physical exertion with complex cerebral thought processes such as formulating and executing a strategy, devising a path to victory no one else has thought of, ect. In motor racing finding that path involves much more than drawing up plays on the dry erase board, it involves pit strategy, teammate strategy, and the most advanced engineering this side of NASA.. Then factor in the mental courage element, the consequences for making the wrong decision. In the case of football that might mean a dropped pass or interception. In racing it can lead to immediate physical harm or death. Taken as a whole there is no greater, or more demanding, sport than motor racing.

I would agree for the most part certainly, but it's not all that complicated. The one common denominator in all sport, from chess to cricket to racing, is competition. No two sports involve the same level of physical and mental ability, but virtually all have some combination of both. I don't think it's fair to judge a sport based solely on how much exertion you get from it. You can get exhausted from a very competitive round of chess, because you're so cuaght up in it. And you can have a fairly quiet day playing goal in soccer, if you're not tested very much throughout the game. But if you're there to compete and win, no matter what it is, then it's a sport.

[garyshell]

Before I even post my opinion, I thought it would be only right to introduce myself....I am the roommate who initially had the argument to begin this post. Although I am not a fan of auto racing, I found some of these arguments as very interesting, even challenging me to rethink my opinion.

Well done CharlieB24!!! It took real guts to show up here. I am very impressed! As you have probably already gathered some here are more, shall we say, "civil" than others. Take all that with a grain of salt. You conversation with your roommate and his subsequent post about it here have brought on a vigorous discussion. One that has gone on long before your conversation and one that will go on long after.

I've always known that race drivers were athletes, in the sense that racing requires a lot of upper body strength. I knew this because as a young boy, (I'm now 57) I had an uncle who drove in NASCAR. Nelson's arms were like rocks as were the arms of the two other drivers I met at Nelson's house. But the point was driven home to me a few years ago when I was at Daytona Speedway Museum to see if there was any thing there about my uncle. (Sadly no...) But as we were leaving, my wife and I heard the sounds of cars out on the track. We decided to take the tram tour offered and it wound up taking us to the pits where the Richard Petty "ride-along" program was under way. My wife, bless her, INSISTED that I had to partake. All I can say is WOW. The effort it took just to sit there in the car was amazing. I did just five laps in street clothes and was worn out. I can't imagine the stamina required to do 200 hundred laps in a hot layered Nomex suit. Add to that the "chess" match and absolute total concentration for those 200 laps and, in my eyes, these guys are every bit the athlete that any major league baseball player who spends more time on his butt than in actual full exertion mode. Don't get me wrong, that is NOT meant as a slight to those guys. I admire them for what they do (I coach Knothole baseball) and hold them in high regard as true athletes. I just am attempting to draw a comparison.

Welcome aboard!

Gary

[Cart750hp]

This is just my opinion about this issue:

Auto racing is a sport; but the drivers are not an athlete. Just like the poker boys who's good at Poker tournaments, or just like chess. Sure they sweat and going 180 miles for hours....same as those poker guys, they sit for hours and sweat too. Race car drivers has to be the brain of the car, but the car has an engine where power dependent from. Unlike riding a bicycle for consecutive days riding a minimum of 60 miles a day and the cyclists will have to ride, think and do the pedaling to race. Race car drivers are race car drivers....not an athlete.

[Chaparral66]

This is just my opinion about this issue:

Auto racing is a sport; but the drivers are not an athlete. Just like the poker boys who's good at Poker tournaments, or just like chess. Sure they sweat and going 180 miles for hours....same as those poker guys, they sit for hours and sweat too. Race car drivers has to be the brain of the car, but the car has an engine where power dependent from. Unlike riding a bicycle for consecutive days riding a minimum of 60 miles a day and the cyclists will have to ride, think and do the pedaling to race. Race car drivers are race car drivers....not an athlete.

I hate to disagree, but I do. As garyshell noted above, race drivers who compete regularly are very conditioned to do what they do. The conditioning to drive a race car is very different from what is need to be competitive in a sport like skiing, just as the conditioning needed for American Football is very different from basketball. Please correct me if I'm wrong, garyshell, but I am sure in your uncle's day, they didn't have power steering as they do now. You literally had to wrestle the car around, especially on short tracks like Martinsville and Bristol. No wonder his arms were like rocks, they needed to be. People like AJ Foyt, Cale Yarbrough, Buddy Baker, were all stocky guys who were used to manhandling race cars. Particulaly Foyt, who drove just about every kind of race there was in his day.

Today, people like Michael Schumacher and Carl Edwards have shown what an edge they can get by rigorously working out. Now, jusy about all the drivers are involved in some sort of workout routine, and just about all of the pit crews are too. Just by kart racing, I improved my upper body strength to the point of having good muscle memory even when I haven't been in the kart for a while.

To say drivers are not athletes today is just not accurate anymore, given the edge they are always on the lookout for.

[garyshell]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, garyshell, but I am sure in your uncle's day, they didn't have power steering as they do now. You literally had to wrestle the car around, especially on short tracks like Martinsville and Bristol. No wonder his arms were like rocks, they needed to be.

You are absolutely correct. This was back int the days when a "stock car" was actually based on a stock car.

Gary

[garyshell]

This is just my opinion about this issue:

Auto racing is a sport; but the drivers are not an athlete. Just like the poker boys who's good at Poker tournaments, or just like chess. Sure they sweat and going 180 miles for hours....same as those poker guys, they sit for hours and sweat too. Race car drivers has to be the brain of the car, but the car has an engine where power dependent from. Unlike riding a bicycle for consecutive days riding a minimum of 60 miles a day and the cyclists will have to ride, think and do the pedaling to race. Race car drivers are race car drivers....not an athlete.


Do you consider pro baseball players athletes? What about competitive skiers?

Gary

[Cart750hp]

I hate to disagree, but I do. As garyshell noted above, race drivers who compete regularly are very conditioned to do what they do. The conditioning to drive a race car is very different from what is need to be competitive in a sport like skiing, just as the conditioning needed for American Football is very different from basketball. Please correct me if I'm wrong, garyshell, but I am sure in your uncle's day, they didn't have power steering as they do now. You literally had to wrestle the car around, especially on short tracks like Martinsville and Bristol. No wonder his arms were like rocks, they needed to be. People like AJ Foyt, Cale Yarbrough, Buddy Baker, were all stocky guys who were used to manhandling race cars. Particulaly Foyt, who drove just about every kind of race there was in his day.

Today, people like Michael Schumacher and Carl Edwards have shown what an edge they can get by rigorously working out. Now, jusy about all the drivers are involved in some sort of workout routine, and just about all of the pit crews are too. Just by kart racing, I improved my upper body strength to the point of having good muscle memory even when I haven't been in the kart for a while.

To say drivers are not athletes today is just not accurate anymore, given the edge they are always on the lookout for.

For the sake of argument, let's randomly pick any race car driver (could be F1, NASCAR to Sprint or Atlantics), most of them works out outside of work, and some of them may like to sit around waiting for the next race. But for say basketball or football or baseball, they pretty much go to the gym outside of their work, and again working out harder when they are on their game. Is that the same for the race cars drivers? Maybe not. The race car drivers don't need a skill to push the pedal and grab the steering wheel. If they would be pedaling the car, that would've been a different story. Look at how old majority of the NBA, NFL and MLB players when they retire compare to race car drivers. How about the cyclists? Athlete's retire early because their body couldn't handle anymore physical work although mentally they still have the will. But on the race drivers....ask Mark Martin alone. Just my 2c of course.

[Shifter]

Although I am not a fan of auto racing, I found some of these arguments as very interesting, even challenging me to rethink my opinion... I feel that to my own opinion a sport would be defined as follows: "any competition that requires the combination of physical and mental ability to outdo one's (or a team's) competitor." Although not found in any dictionary, it is one that my friends and I have come up with upon constantly debating the true definition.

If you have a few minutes check out this from the world of Formula 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-eiKYyVr2A

thanks, this is very interesting!

[SportscarBruce]

The fact that in 2007 Darren Manning had to park his Indycar while racing on a road course because his arms could no longer turn the wheel means racing is an athletic activity.

[Easy Drifter]

CART750: Read my earlier post. In scientific studies race drivers are in better shape and more athletic and withstand stress better than almost any other athelete. Away ahead of baseball and football (NA style) players.
Endurance was tops. Comparisons were mostly open wheel and rally professionals against professionals in other sports and also Olympic atheletes.
I know you are a real fan but have you ever driven a car in competition?

[beachbum]

CART750: Read my earlier post. In scientific studies race drivers are in better shape and more athletic and withstand stress better than almost any other athelete. Away ahead of baseball and football (NA style) players.
Endurance was tops. Comparisons were mostly open wheel and rally professionals against professionals in other sports and also Olympic atheletes.
I know you are a real fan but have you ever driven a car in competition?Any racer who intends to move into a profession arena works out. Even drag racers like John Force. Drag racer Melanie Troxel is running mini-marathons. Even if they don't work out, driving a race car or racing a motorcycle is very hard work and more of a total workout than any gym. I know from personal experience that many hours in the gym will get you in good shape, but racing moves that to a higher level.

I once watched a female motorcycle racer workout in a gym where they spent hours each week. They were tall and thin and working out on nautilus equipment. A local body builder was following them through the equipment. When the body builder hit the leg press machine, they couldn't even move it off the blocks with the weight the racer was using. To say they were shocked was an understatement.

Racers today must endure sustained G loads that approach the stresses experienced by a fighter pilot, and they don't have G-suits. It is very hot, the concentration level is extreme - one tiny mistake may be your last, and there are lots of other physical stresses like vibration and heavy steering, etc. With all that you have to perform better that the other racers who have spent time in the gym. Not a place for wimps.

[Tazio]

I deleted the original post because the quote was all messed up. I hope this one works.


"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering;There are some who would say that racing today has lost some of its panache because of its hyperfocus on safety today. I am trying to be delicate, I am not saying we should return to the late 60's, but to a point I understand what they mean.Hemingway was an arrogant @ssh0le, an over-rated "Man of Letters". His opinion on this subject means exactly squat to me. This is an argument of semantics. Every sport has its own areas of special skill, and is therefore a sport. The traditional ones generally take more natural ability.

BTW Fishing is not a sport it is a recreation, and shouldn't be a competition (my opinion)
Most surfers feel the same way about their passion!
Advertising has convinced the lame-o's that these, and many others should be competition.
The reason?? $$$$$$$

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hemingway was an arrogant @ssh0le, an over-rated "Man of Letters". His opinion on this subject means exactly squat to me. This is an argument of semantics. Every sport has its own areas of special skill, and is therefore a sport. The traditional ones generally take more natural ability.

BTW Fishing is not a sport it is a recreation, and shouldn't be a competition (my opinion)
Most surfers feel the same way about their passion!
Advertising has convinced the lame-o's that these, and many others should be competition.
The reason?? $$$$$$$

Hemingway was entertaining every now and then...

As for Fishing is not a sport. If you can do it drunk, it isn't a sport...lol

[Tazio]

Hemingway was entertaining every now and then...

As for Fishing is not a sport. If you can do it drunk, it isn't a sport...lol
Thank you.
I have other more philosophical reasons why fishing should not be,
and is not a competitive sport, but I like yours just fine :up:

[methanolHuffer]

Motor racing is a sport to me. And so much more.

It's like art+mathematics+ballet+football(both kinds)+space travel+lovemaking+hockey+chemistry+music+child birth+physics+?, all combined into one sensation.

ok, childbirth is a bit of a stretch (unless you ask octomom - ).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thank you.
I have other more philosophical reasons why fishing should not be,
and is not a competitive sport, but I like yours just fine :up:

Tazio...thank the late George Carlin for that definition.....in his what are sports sketch. HE was being comical but on fishing...dead on the money...

[Chaparral66]

To CART750:
I would echo Easy Drifter's comments. I would also add that the competitor in a certain sport will tune his workout routine to the sport he competes in. It's not neccessary for a race driver to benchpress 500 pounds to be competitive, as it would be for a football player. But he can design his workout to build his stamina, which is absolutely neccessary. Mark Martin works out with weights daily, and was quoted earlier this year as bing in the best shape of his life, which bodes well for his return to full time driving for Hendricks Racing this year. But he uses weights to keep toned, lean, and maintain stamina, as opposed to building bulk. Michael Schumacher is a competitive soccer player who still plays, and he still kart races too.

[Tazio]

Tazio...thank the late George Carlin for that definition.....in his what are sports sketch. HE was being comical but on fishing...dead on the money...I've enjoyed George Carlin's humor immensely but his example is based on a faulty hypothesis. Catching fish successfully generally means that you understand something about nature that a less contemplative individual would. The optimum fishing experience IMO is being alone on a pond or lake in solitary communion with nature at what have been referred to as "The Alters of Byron" When I deduce where the fish are, rather than reach for the lure that I believe is going to catch the most, the fastest I prefer to pick the one that I would prefer to present, and derive the most pleasure from by convincing the fish to "grab it" whether to examine or eat it.. It is the closest thing I have ever had to a religious experience, and probably ever will. Oh yes, never go fishing with the absolute knowledge that you are going to release all the fish you catch. That is Hubris, and an admission that you enjoy the sole experience of torturing fish!

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've enjoyed George Carlin's humor immensely but his example is based on a faulty hypothesis. Catching fish successfully generally means that you understand something about nature that a less contemplative individual would. The optimum fishing experience IMO is being alone on a pond or lake in solitary communion with nature at what have been referred to as "The Alters of Byron" When I deduce where the fish are, rather than reach for the lure that I believe is going to catch the most, the fastest I prefer to pick the one that I would prefer to present, and derive the most pleasure from by convincing the fish to "grab it" whether to examine or eat it.. It is the closest thing I have ever had to a religious experience, and probably ever will. Oh yes, never go fishing with the absolute knowledge that you are going to release all the fish you catch. That is Hubris, and an admission that you enjoy the sole experience of torturing fish!

Tazio, I looked at fishing similar to you in a sense when I was a kid. I loved catching them and I loved having a pickerel (Walleye to you guys in the States) pan fried for breakfast. Catch and release wasn't really in my lexicon as a kid or anyone's really in Southern Ontario when I was a kid. It is a more recent thing as fishing populations dwindled a little in the 80's. I just got out of fishing. I think to an extent, I found other things to do. Still have to say I have nothing against fishing...but a sport, naah. It is recreation. I say this even tho have I have seen a bass tournment weigh in....

[Tazio]

Tazio, I looked at fishing similar to you in a sense when I was a kid. I loved catching them and I loved having a pickerel (Walleye to you guys in the States) pan fried for breakfast. Catch and release wasn't really in my lexicon as a kid or anyone's really in Southern Ontario when I was a kid. It is a more recent thing as fishing populations dwindled a little in the 80's. I just got out of fishing. I think to an extent, I found other things to do. Still have to say I have nothing against fishing...but a sport, naah. It is recreation. I say this even tho have I have seen a bass tournment weigh in....
Fair play to you. And, I must admit that I too was a lot more passionate about this relationship with fishing when I was younger :up:

[Easy Drifter]

When I was a kid my folks had a cottage (later their home) on Bass Lake near Orillia. We spent the summers there (and most weekends) but dad had to work in Toronto except for his holidays and that was just 2 weeks in those days.
Fri. morning, unless it was a thunderstorm or really high winds, my mother and I would be out on the lake fishing. Fri. night dinner was almost always fresh caught smallmouth bass. We also often gave fish to our friends. Both mom and I were pretty good and we knew the Lake and where the fish were.
Things like lining up a boathouse peak with a barn one way and a certain pine tree with hydro tower the other way. We had about 4 honey holes all cross referenced and they always worked year after year.
Years later MNR screwed up the fishing by introducing Largemouth bass into a Smallmouth lake. Neither thrived and fishing today is mediocre. Before MNR it had a good self sustaining population but after they got involved the lake requires stocking.

[Mark in Oshawa]

When I was a kid my folks had a cottage (later their home) on Bass Lake near Orillia. We spent the summers there (and most weekends) but dad had to work in Toronto except for his holidays and that was just 2 weeks in those days.
Fri. morning, unless it was a thunderstorm or really high winds, my mother and I would be out on the lake fishing. Fri. night dinner was almost always fresh caught smallmouth bass. We also often gave fish to our friends. Both mom and I were pretty good and we knew the Lake and where the fish were.
Things like lining up a boathouse peak with a barn one way and a certain pine tree with hydro tower the other way. We had about 4 honey holes all cross referenced and they always worked year after year.
Years later MNR screwed up the fishing by introducing Largemouth bass into a Smallmouth lake. Neither thrived and fishing today is mediocre. Before MNR it had a good self sustaining population but after they got involved the lake requires stocking.

ED....you gotta know the MNR has messed up a lot of lakes.....

I guess the racers are athletes argument has been beat to death. Stick a fork in this one, it is DONE.

[Tazio]

When I was a kid my folks had a cottage (later their home) on Bass Lake near Orillia. We spent the summers there (and most weekends) but dad had to work in Toronto except for his holidays and that was just 2 weeks in those days.
Fri. morning, unless it was a thunderstorm or really high winds, my mother and I would be out on the lake fishing. Fri. night dinner was almost always fresh caught smallmouth bass. We also often gave fish to our friends. Both mom and I were pretty good and we knew the Lake and where the fish were.
Things like lining up a boathouse peak with a barn one way and a certain pine tree with hydro tower the other way. We had about 4 honey holes all cross referenced and they always worked year after year.
Years later MNR screwed up the fishing by introducing Largemouth bass into a Smallmouth lake. Neither thrived and fishing today is mediocre. Before MNR it had a good self sustaining population but after they got involved the lake requires stocking.Great stuff Drifty. I love it (at least the first part). Yes it's amazing the way fish relate to structure, and there is no better recipe for fishing success than knowing the lake. Neither one of my parents had the least interest in fishing, I taught myself.
One other thing, it’s been my experience that women tend to take to angling, when correctly motivated faster than men, and acquire a more sincere appreciation of it.

BTW what's MNR?

[tmx]

Sorry I only read the original post, but not combination of "physical and mental abilities." You have got to be kidding me. Lots of endurance racing: LeMans/Dakar/Rallying are involved combination of clear thinking and concerntration while under exhaustion. Try motorcross as well. I remember the 5days motorcycle trial thing they held in Spain and other countries.

It's his lost, pointless to argue if he isn't open minded.

[Tazio]

combination of clear thinking and concerntration while under exhaustion. So does teaching first grade :p :
Playing a little devil’s advocate here. Things are relative. For instance 99.99 percent of distance runners could not even come close to making it in (let me pick a sport) Ok Baseball No matter how highly motivated they were. A rough approximation IMO
of Baseball players succeeding in distance running if properly motivated I would hazard a guess is/of about 10 to 20 percent. The disparity would be even higher if you were to substitute Football(soccer) This is why people struggle with the admission of what is and what is not actually sport and to what degree they are athletes.

On a side note: I remember talking to Juan Eichelberger, who I played base ball with. He made the big leagues, I didn't. He was coaching in the minor league Michael Jordan was playing in when He decided he was a Baseball Player. He told me verbatim "Michael could not even recognize a curve ball, let alone hit one" :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ability and instincts for the game separate people who try sports from those who can make a living at it. Iam sure I can drive a race car around a race track, but whether it is an OW car or a NASCAR, I am sure I wont get close to the times of someone who knows their business and I am not in the physical shape to even approach that threshold. It is a mix of the physical and mental combined with instinct. They are athletes and this is a sport....

[cynisca]

I know it seems like a lame question, but my roommate and I had a big argument about this last night, and I would like to see what a group full of racing junkies like ourselves have to say about it...

My roommate claims that racing is not a "sport" because it does not, in his mind, have a combination of physical and mental abilities. Traditional sports such as baseball, basketball, football, and even cheerleading to him are "sports", but not racing.
He says that racing does take a lot of mental ability, because you need to know what line to take and you need to think about how to get ahead of that person in front of you. But the part we argued about is that it's not "physical".

He does not agree that it takes a lot of physical ability to steer a race car for 2 hours (give or take), and the funniest accusation he had was that racers get to "sit down", which sort of denies any physical abilities right there.
I immediately shot him down by saying that race cars do not have power steering, and it is not simple to just turn a steering wheel and sit back and relax.
"The car does all the work", contrary to bicycling where the person propels himself down the road, was another comeback.
And "there is no full body exertion" was the other big argument that he had.

Not only did he claim that auto racing was not a sport, but he made me out to be a fool that I thought it was one. His way is right, and that's just all there is to it.

What are yall's opinions?

Motorsports is sport, of course. You have the same physical work like in baseball, football or basketball. If not, even more. The FIA and the FIM are recognized organisations by the IOC.

Chess, wrestling and billard are also sports anyway. :p