Security Issues on Sub Continent

[Valve Bounce]

Following the terrorist attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore, I just wonder what security there is on the Sub Continent. This attack was preceded by the attack in Mumbai where 179 people were killed. There is a marked similarity to the attacks by very well trained and well armed terrorists. One wonders who in Pakistan are involved - I suspect there must be some very highly positioned people with access to intelligence, arms and bullet proof vests, as well as organisational skills.

This is an attack on the economy through the tourist industry. One wonders who will be willing to even visit Pakistan as tourists, let alone sporting teams. Then there are the Commonwealth Games coming up in India next year - what will be the security issues there? and the Cricket World Cup supposedly in the combined sub continent?

Unless Pakistan get their security/intelligence agencies sorted, this will possibly result in a regime change through another assassination; just like Benazir Bhutto's assassination just before she was returned to power. Unfortunately, this lack of security/intelligence in Pakistan is affecting its neighboring countries.

For those who want more information of these attacks, please refer to Al Jazeera, BBC, or news organisations in Australia.

[Easy Drifter]

I wouldn't be too sure that factions within the security/ intelligence/military are not involved up to their necks in this.
Pakistan resembles a powder keg and a good part of the 'economy' if you can call it that is susidized by the US in one form or another. Many Pakistanis are totally against this and to some extent support radical Islam and even the Taliban over US (and Western) influence.
A very complex and dicy situation.
No, I do not have an answer.
The whole country could explode into civil war and they do have nuclear weapons. Not only would such a situation put the Afgan operations in jeporady but India would likely be tempted to intervene at least to some extent.
Could be another huge headache for Obama and the rest of the world.
Hopefully it does not happen and should it do so I hope China and Russia keep out of it.

[harsha]

i'd agree that US helped to make Pakistan the threat to the world that it now is..

[Valve Bounce]

i'd agree that US helped to make Pakistan the threat to the world that it now is..

I am sure you will be happy to enlarge on this statement so that we can further discuss it. I'll kick it off by suggesting that Pakistan, with the aid of the CIA created the Taliban who have now turned on both.

Furthermore, there does not appear to be any rule of law in the regions of Pakistan which border Afghanistan.

[Malbec]

Mumbai is a separate case to the recent attacks in Pakistan, after all it lies in India. The attack there was so devastating partly because India has long underinvested in its police and security services which are further hobbled by corruption. Having armed police equipped with bolt action rifles whilst any self respecting terrorist turns up to the party with a minimum of an AK47 is asking for trouble.

As for Pakistan, the majority of the people there do NOT support Islamic rule, after all thats why groups like the Taliban are utterly unable to use the democratic process to their advantage. However the violence there was until recently restricted to the NW and was slowly spreading to neighbouring districts like Swat. What is frightening about this recent attack was that it was in Lahore in previously peaceful Punjab. That represents an escalation.

An attack on cricket is an attack on all Pakistanis, there are few countries except perhaps India that are as fanatical in their support for one sport as Pakistan is for cricket. Yet the choice of the Sri Lankans acts to isolate Pakistan internationally further especially when sport was one of the few arenas where Pakistan stood proud on the world stage.

This attack takes things into a new area, its difficult to see who was behind this, what they wanted and what this represents for the future.

[harsha]

I am sure you will be happy to enlarge on this statement so that we can further discuss it. I'll kick it off by suggesting that Pakistan, with the aid of the CIA created the Taliban who have now turned on both.

Furthermore, there does not appear to be any rule of law in the regions of Pakistan which border Afghanistan.

ironical that Pakistan(and militancy in Pakistan,Afghanistan) was supported by the US / China through most of their existence from independance as a means of destabilizing India(Russia in Afghanistan's case)

China is a sort of nation which wants to extend it's dominance throughout Asia and if it means destabilizing India,then so be it..that's their motto

China and India are doing well in trade but talking to some of my Chinese Principals who i interact with from time to time,they do not know what happens across their country...there is a militancy problem with Islam dominated parts of China,it's not as documented

Us on the other hand just wanted to penalize India for being close to the USSR(erstwhile)

now the US even if they know they are in the wrong are not going to admit to their mistake.China had a big hand in supplying the nuclear power to Pakistan........

[Drew]

Is anything remotely involving muslims commiting crimes always a terrorist attack?

[harsha]

i didn't say that... :mark:

[Drew]

Sorry Harsha, I wasn't directing it towards you. It's just that the word terrorist is just chucked around too much, to give more strength to a story...

[harsha]

in Pakistan's case..i think the government should be in control of what the "mullahs" preach if it was determined to nip the problem of terrorism..

too often,the Anti - India / Kashmir rhetoric is used to gain votes,Well Kashmir isn't the issue now if you look at the manifesto of the Terrorist organizations.Any attempt by Pakistan to downplay LeT and JuD as a group only restricted to Kashmir are ridiculous

what pisses me most off about the pakistani leadership is the double speak...on the one hand,one pakistani minister acknowledges that the sea route was used and their country was used to plan the attacks and on the other hand,you've got an navy general denying any responsibility

I'm not taking anything away from India's low level of security in the Mumbai attacks,but surely such double speak by the Pakistani ppl is not gonna help the matters much

[Valve Bounce]

Sorry Harsha, I wasn't directing it towards you. It's just that the word terrorist is just chucked around too much, to give more strength to a story...

Would you consider that this attack was NOT a terrorist attack, or that Muslims were NOT involved?

[Valve Bounce]

Getting back to the security issue, a lot more is being revealed now that the umpires have returned to Australia. It seems that there was no back-up whatsoever, and the alleged terrorists were wandering around shooting at will and just sauntering away after the driver drove the bus away afterward. It is also interesting that, for some reason, the Pakistani cricketers' bus was delayed 7 minutes. Here is the account : http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25146607-601,00.html
It is very interesting that after the shooting started, no police/security reinforcements were dispatched to the scene.

After reading the above account, there is certainly enough contrary claims for suspicions of either conspiracy or at the very least, an ineptness at a very high level.

[harsha]

India has been at the recieving end of pakistan supported terrorism for years now....The world has only just started taking note of it now...

the US still continues to speak of Pakistan as a ally on the war of terror.Any intelligent Americans ??? Can u people explain your country's foriegn policy???

if i'm not wrong,India is of more use to the US than Pakistan,Then why does America still support Pakistan???

[Mark in Oshawa]

India has been at the recieving end of pakistan supported terrorism for years now....The world has only just started taking note of it now...

the US still continues to speak of Pakistan as a ally on the war of terror.Any intelligent Americans ??? Can u people explain your country's foriegn policy???

if i'm not wrong,India is of more use to the US than Pakistan,Then why does America still support Pakistan???


Harsha, it is the goal of the US to stop Islamic fundamentalist terrorists by propping up the Pakistani government. India's flirting with the USSR in the Indira Ghandi years sort of forced the US to pick sides. They picked a poor ally I agree and Pakistan is not in many ways worthy of support BUT the goal the Americans have almost always had was to be a moderating influence and try to use that power and influence to help support US foreign policy goals such as hunting the terrorists and Bin Laden while trying to push the Pakistani government into a position where they are NOT a destablizing force and creating issues for India.

The Americans are poor at this sort of thing because many resent their influence, hence the Islamic rebellion within Pakistan as a result. It is a mess.

That said, I have never believed the US wants any sort of war down here and they sure as heck are not going to be against India and its foreign policy in the area if India wants peace.

The thing is, too many nations of have other agenda's in this reason, from the Indian support of the Tamils in Sri Lanka, to the Pakistani Islamic factions supporting terrorism in India, the Chinese sticking their noses in everywhere and the US bankrolling whoever is running the shop in Islamabad. It wouldn't be as nearly as scary if not for the fact that the nuclear threat is high if the wrong people get control of the nuclear weapons.

I think of the opinion that the fight against Islamic terrorism that the US has started has complicated things but the goal was logical. It just has spun off so many issues that the goal has been lost and the wrong allies have been rewarded.

[Drew]

Would you consider that this attack was NOT a terrorist attack, or that Muslims were NOT involved?

I don't consider it a terrorist attack , no group such as Al Qaeda has admitted doing it and even just minutes after the attack it was labelled a terrorist attack without even knowing whether it was. Just the whole naming it a terrorist attack when it could have just been mindless xenophobic thugs instead just to create a bigger news story annoys me.

[Malbec]

in Pakistan's case..i think the government should be in control of what the "mullahs" preach if it was determined to nip the problem of terrorism..

too often,the Anti - India / Kashmir rhetoric is used to gain votes,Well Kashmir isn't the issue now if you look at the manifesto of the Terrorist organizations.Any attempt by Pakistan to downplay LeT and JuD as a group only restricted to Kashmir are ridiculous

what pisses me most off about the pakistani leadership is the double speak...on the one hand,one pakistani minister acknowledges that the sea route was used and their country was used to plan the attacks and on the other hand,you've got an navy general denying any responsibility


The problem with Pakistan is that it only has one unifying identity, religion. The three main social groups, the Pashtun to the NW, Punjabis to the NE and the coastally based and mainly Indian origin Urdu speakers who also form the political elite (yet have the shortest history of all in Pakistan) don't identify much historically with each other, allowing the country to become easily fragmented.

Add to that endemic corruption and enemies (or potential ones) on all borders and you have a recipe for disaster.

However there is double speak on India's side too. Despite all the rhetoric about India being a free and equal society aimed at the west it is not a good country to be a Muslim in. What happened to the police chiefs who stood by and did nothing in the Gujurat riots that resulted in thousands of Muslims being killed and more raped and mutilated? Promotion is a rather bizarre form of punishment isn't it. What happens at the other end of society in free-wheeling Mumbai where rich Muslims find that their names bars them from membership or from buying property in nice developments? What about the persecution of Christians and the rise of Hindu extremist groups (Shiv sena?).

Kashmir won't be resolved because the conflict is useful for both sides. Pakistan gets a perpetual war against India to keep the attention of its own people diverted from the extensive corruption at the top and lack of development of the country's infrastructure while India gets to rail against the nasty Muslims to let the millions of poverty stricken Indians forget that they are locked out of their country's drive to wealth.

Lets not blame Pakistan for everything, most countries in that subcontinent have a lot wrong with them.

[harsha]

The thing is, too many nations of have other agenda's in this reason, from the Indian support of the Tamils in Sri Lanka, to the Pakistani Islamic factions supporting terrorism in India, the Chinese sticking their noses in everywhere and the US bankrolling whoever is running the shop in Islamabad. It wouldn't be as nearly as scary if not for the fact that the nuclear threat is high if the wrong people get control of the nuclear weapons.



the Indians do not support LTTE..sure some individuals might support the LTTE but not the government..The Indian Peacekeeping Force was sent not to support the LTTE and the Indians will not consider supporting the LTTE after the assasination of Rajiv Gandhi

[harsha]

However there is double speak on India's side too. Despite all the rhetoric about India being a free and equal society aimed at the west it is not a good country to be a Muslim in. What happened to the police chiefs who stood by and did nothing in the Gujurat riots that resulted in thousands of Muslims being killed and more raped and mutilated? Promotion is a rather bizarre form of punishment isn't it. What happens at the other end of society in free-wheeling Mumbai where rich Muslims find that their names bars them from membership or from buying property in nice developments? What about the persecution of Christians and the rise of Hindu extremist groups (Shiv sena?).



I do not deny that, a lot of Indians agree that there's a whole bunch wrong with our country.But i would definetly suggest that the Muslims in India have a whole lot more freedom and expression than in any other country in Asia.

Which other country would give a percentage of jobs to a community :(

i'm not painting the Indians as angels,far from it,but it's not as bad as it's being made out to be.

[harsha]

Kashmir won't be resolved because the conflict is useful for both sides. Pakistan gets a perpetual war against India to keep the attention of its own people diverted from the extensive corruption at the top and lack of development of the country's infrastructure while India gets to rail against the nasty Muslims to let the millions of poverty stricken Indians forget that they are locked out of their country's drive to wealth.

Lets not blame Pakistan for everything, most countries in that subcontinent have a lot wrong with them.

Listen whenever India has given a chance for peace for Pakistan,you've had the Kargil War and the Mumbai Terror Attacks.

As i'm saying , the war between India and Pakistan is not a war between Muslims and Hindu's, it's not about a religion no matter how much Pakistan tries to paint it as such.

I agree that Muslims in India are being victimised but considering that most (only most) of the terrorist attacks are Islamic Influenced in nature,would you blame rest of the people of India for being suspicious of the Muslims.

I live in the city where there's a 50% Muslim population and it's the safest place in the world to be.There's been no communal tension between the two communities(no major one atleast)...The attacks that have been happening here are sorely because of the terrorists in Bangladesh and Pakistan(i wouldnt deny that some Indian Muslims are among them) but almost certainly,the brainwashing is done in Pakistan..

[markabilly]

It is if was done by persons not of a recognized government 1) for political or religious reasons and 2) directed at civilian targets (as opposed to the civilians being incidental targets).

The other side would be it being done by a government group (war); or doing it for monetary gain (banditry); or toward a government group (insurrection).


I suppose if this comment made sense, it might be worth saying :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

I don't consider it a terrorist attack , no group such as Al Qaeda has admitted doing it and even just minutes after the attack it was labelled a terrorist attack without even knowing whether it was. Just the whole naming it a terrorist attack when it could have just been mindless xenophobic thugs instead just to create a bigger news story annoys me.

I'd love some of the stuff that you are smoking. :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

I do not deny that, a lot of Indians agree that there's a whole bunch wrong with our country.But i would definetly suggest that the Muslims in India have a whole lot more freedom and expression than in any other country in Asia.

Which other country would give a percentage of jobs to a community :(

i'm not painting the Indians as angels,far from it,but it's not as bad as it's being made out to be.

Are you sure that is the case in Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, and perhaps even in Borneo and The Phillipines.

The laughable thing about India is that their police force is armed with either sticks (canes I suppose) or .303 Rifles that were relegated to be used by High School Cadets back in the fifties. Their ineptness is only exceeded by that of the Pakistan police, who have the ability of turning invisible on demand.

[harsha]

hey the Indian government gives them freedom,whether their religion allows them that freedom is completely a different matter