Nascar Combined National Touring Series Win Totals

[slorydn1]

I started this as just a project a couple of years ago to get Harvick's stats because I was changing my signature line. At first, I was only checking his, then during the run up to the Daytona 500 I got an itch to see how that compared to other drivers. I did have a short list of just wins from a couple of years ago, but in updating that, I put together a whole bunch of stats. I'm not going to bore you with those, but will pass it on to those who ask about their favorite driver. So far I only have the drivers of the top 46 cars based on the 2008 Sprint Cup Series owners points, adjusted to the mergers (etc) for 2009.

But, I am posting the top 10 win totals here and some of them may surprise you. They did surprise me.

Listed by Rank, Name, Total wins (Cup,NNS,Truck) through the California Nationwide Race....

1) Mark Martin, 90 (35,48,7)
2) Jeff Gordon, 86 (81,5,0)
3t) Jeff Burton, 48 (21,27,0)
3t) Greg Biffle, 48 (14,18,16)
5) Kevin Harvick, 46 (11,32,3)
6) Bill Elliot, 45 (44,1,0)
7) Kyle Busch, 44 (12,22,10) :eek: Already!?!?!?
8) Tony Stewart, 43 (33,8,2)
9) Carl Edwards, 42 (16,20,6)
10t) Jimmie Johnson, 41 (40,1,0)
10t) Matt Kenseth, 41 (17,24,0)

I'm sure many will note the absence of the fan favorite from this list; June Bug just missed, barely, with
40 wins (18,22,0).....

As more and more drivers make multiple weekly starts, I think the mainstream media will start looking at combined stats as just opposed to by the series. That was evidenced last year when Michael Waltrip made his 1000th career start it actually got some press coverage, when most of us were like 1000, he's only up to like 700 or so...... And the press (rightly so) have made a big deal of Kyle's 21 wins last year, and Harvicks 14 wins in 2006. Did you know tommorrows cup race will be Kyle Busch's 348th career start already?!?!?

[e2mtt]

...As more and more drivers make multiple weekly starts, I think the mainstream media will start looking at combined stats as just opposed to by the series. That was evidenced last year when Michael Waltrip made his 1000th career start it actually got some press coverage, when most of us were like 1000, he's only up to like 700 or so...... And the press (rightly so) have made a big deal of Kyle's 21 wins last year, and Harvicks 14 wins in 2006. Did you know tommorrows cup race will be Kyle Busch's 348th career start already?!?!?

I think combined stats are a terrible thing to look at. Yes, Kyle Busch & Edwards are tearing up the Nationwide & Truck stats, but against weak competition & with better funding. There isn't any glory in beating the minor leagues once you make the majors, and some would say it is hurting the sport. Notice the Hendricks drivers rarely ever run underclass. If Jeff, JJ, & Jr. wanted to bring Hendricks equipment & funding to run on Fridays & Saturdays, I'm sure they could be very successful, pad their combined win totals, and take a few away from Busch & Edwards.

[slorydn1]

I think combined stats are a terrible thing to look at. Yes, Kyle Busch & Edwards are tearing up the Nationwide & Truck stats, but against weak competition & with better funding. There isn't any glory in beating the minor leagues once you make the majors, and some would say it is hurting the sport. Notice the Hendricks drivers rarely ever run underclass. If Jeff, JJ, & Jr. wanted to bring Hendricks equipment & funding to run on Fridays & Saturdays, I'm sure they could be very successful, pad their combined win totals, and take a few away from Busch & Edwards.

I disagree. Most of Edwards truck wins came before he was a cup driver, and all of Busch's Truck wins came with a realitively unknown team, and all of Harvick's truck wins came in his own equipment. As for the Nationwide series, did you see the finishing order of the last two races? Its not weak competition, there are a ton of cup drivers in the field, and most of the teams involved are either direct spinoffs of their Cup shops, or, in the case of KHI and Jr Motorsports, closely affiliated with Cup programs, which many have complained about being there, but no one can say the competition is weak. Its the same people!

[tstran17_88]

I wanna say all of Edwards CTS wins came before he went full time in the Cup series, albeit...he was full time in the Cup series the last 13 races in 2004 when he took over the #99 when Jeff Burton left.

http://www.racing-reference.info/driver?id=edwarca01

Half of Matt Kenseth's Busch victories were while he was still driving for the late John Reiser, with minimal help from Roush since they were running a Chevy.

http://www.racing-reference.info/driver?id=kensema01

[BobbyC]

Good points. Matt was driving for the independent Reiser team that was looking for a driver after snowmobile champion Tim Bender suffered a bad injury. He was just fortunate to find the ride, and get his break.

Dale Earnhardt Jr hasn't won in the NNS since he took over Hendrick's NNS team; Hendrick has offered some support after he joined HMS, but the #88 NNS team has always been Junior's own operation, complete with his uncles and mother at the core of the team -- brothers Jimmy and Robert Gee Jnr and sister Brenda Jackson (Dale's mother).

[tstran17_88]

Actually, Willracefan needs to take a look at Burton's stats. On his thread complaining about RCR, he mentioned he didn't think Burton was an elite driver.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think the combined totals are interesting, but the quality of competition in Truck and the Nationwide has fluctuated over the years and I would also argue that some guys go down and use their own stuff or race for underfunded teams in one off's. Kyle Busch has made a great amount of noise by racing Billy Belew's trucks and winning, but note that he never takes a dime for driving them so that money is plowed back in, making the lesser sponsor levels less punishing. That truck is better than it would be if a driver was taking a regular cut of the action. That said...the boy can drive.

I think what I don't like about these stats is the obvious level of quality of the Roush and Gibb's operations in the lesser series. A Cup driver should be cleaning up when they drop down to the lower levels. If he didn't, he wouldn't be justifying his Cup ride, and you know no one racing for Gibb's or Roush would be there long if they were not very good.

[slorydn1]

Actually when I started this, it was just about the wins. But when I started digging in deeper I really started looking at Starts, Lead lap finishes, total laps run, and DNF's to really give me a feel what a driver is all about, where their experience levels are. In my mind a start is a start, no matter which of the top 3 series it is. The rules are pretty much the same (the stupid pit rules in the truck series notwithstanding) so even though the actual vehicle may be somewhat different, getting laps at actual Nascar tracks are valuable experience. I was floored when I saw how many starts some people actually had. Mark Martin will make his 1000th start this year!!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Slory....Mark Martin probably has more racing miles under his belt than any other racing driver alive. He is one of the few NASCAR stars that always run 2 or 3 of the main series either full time or almost full time for YEARS. He is one of the original "Buschwackers" who ran more than just a few runoffs.

[slorydn1]

Slory....Mark Martin probably has more racing miles under his belt than any other racing driver alive. He is one of the few NASCAR stars that always run 2 or 3 of the main series either full time or almost full time for YEARS. He is one of the original "Buschwackers" who ran more than just a few runoffs.

Best as I can tell from the group of drivers I have in my "study" the top 5 in laps completed would be:

01 Terry Labonte: 270,224
02 Mark Martin: 250,450
03 Michael Waltrip: 249,547
04 Bill Elliot: 238,325
05 Jeff Burton: 196,032

I did not total up miles completed on my spread sheet because I had enough columns already. I do get your point about the "crossing over". You are making my point for me. My point is about experience.

Guys like Kevin Harvick and Matt Kenseth, who have only been racing in Nascar since the mid to late 90's have already gotten 140,305 (Harvick) and 136,839 (Kenseth) laps respectively. Even Kyle Busch is up over 75,000 laps already. All valuable experience that can help them (and has) in their Cup racing. Things like, "When do I make my move?" "Should I just fall in line now?" "Man, the entrance to pit road here at "track x" is real hard to get to!"

How can you explain that the driver who is arguably the greatest of our time screwed up getting on to pit road at Las Vegas (Jeff Gordon), yet Harvick didn't, not once during the Cup race? The Nationwide race the day before. Heck, even Logano is getting many more laps of experience by racing multiple series than he would have if he only went Cup racing in his less than a year old Nascar career.

So, yes, Mark Martin's 90 wins and 9.2% win pct may be somewhat inflated by his Nationwide and Truck racing, but one cant argue that the extra 40,355 laps run in the lower series weren't valuable experience.

Oh, and while I am at it, Mark only averaged 11.5 Nationwide starts per season over 20 seasons, and only 5.75 truck starts per season for 4 seasons, so I'm not real sure where you came up with "full time or almost full time for years" statement. He ran 1 full Nationwide season (1987-27 of 27 races), since then ran 17 races in 1989, then never more than 15 in any one season after that. His total number of Nationwide starts stands at 230. He did run 14 of the 25 Truck races in 2006, the largest chunk of his astronomical total of 23 truck starts. :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

Best as I can tell from the group of drivers I have in my "study" the top 5 in laps completed would be:

01 Terry Labonte: 270,224
02 Mark Martin: 250,450
03 Michael Waltrip: 249,547
04 Bill Elliot: 238,325
05 Jeff Burton: 196,032

ISo, yes, Mark Martin's 90 wins and 9.2% win pct may be somewhat inflated by his Nationwide and Truck racing, but one cant argue that the extra 40,355 laps run in the lower series weren't valuable experience.

Oh, and while I am at it, Mark only averaged 11.5 Nationwide starts per season over 20 seasons, and only 5.75 truck starts per season for 4 seasons, so I'm not real sure where you came up with "full time or almost full time for years" statement. He ran 1 full Nationwide season (1987-27 of 27 races), since then ran 17 races in 1989, then never more than 15 in any one season after that. His total number of Nationwide starts stands at 230. He did run 14 of the 25 Truck races in 2006, the largest chunk of his astronomical total of 23 truck starts. :p :

I never said the experience wasnt valuable. I commend you on your reseach. As for Mark averaging 11.5 starts per season over 20 seasons ignores he was running that average when most of the other guys were not running even half that much. He won all those Nationwide races when most of the Buschwackers did one or two races a year. IT is just in the last 5 years that most of the Buschwackers have started running NEARLY full time scheds.

Mark Martin is second to Labonte in miles raced but in results in wins he likely is ahead of Terry. Both are still great drivers and Labonte has those two championship seasons.....

[slorydn1]

I do see where you are coming from, Mark. It was common place for Cup drivers to run 8-10 Nationwide races a year (more often than not the plate races and road courses for extra practice then a smattering of the south-east tracks close to the Charlotte area, like Darlington, Rockingham, Bristol, North Wilkesboro, maybe even Richmond and Martinsville). Actually the trend towards Cup drivers attempting the majority of the season in a lesser series was really Kevin Harvick's and RCR's "fault", tho not by design. We all know the circumstances behind Kevin's 2001 Cup season. Kevin was actually scheduled for just 7 Cup starts in the 30 AOL car to preserve his rookie status for 2002. He wasn't set to make his Cup debut until Bristol if I remember correctly. Feb 18th 2001 changed all of that. All eyes were on Kevin to see how he would handle running both seasons full time. I firmly belived if he had tanked it and sucked in one or both series (in his case more probably the Nationwide series) then we wouldn't have seen the large influx of Cup drivers doing double duty all season long. But since he won the Nationwide Championship and finished 9th in Cup points (after missing Daytona) it was on after that. He seemed to struggle in 2002 in the Cup series when he only ran 4 Nationwide and 5 truck races. I'm not sure about the other heavy hitters, but I know that Kevin's 4 best years in Cup were 2001, 2003, 2006, and 2007 and those were the years that he was running for a championship in the Nationwide series (owner's only in 2003 and 2007). The other drivers, saw this and decided it was a great way to collect trophies, get their sponser TV time, etc. and decided to jump on the bandwagon.

I wasn't arguing with you to belittle you or anything like that. I just get so frustrated when people talk out of both sides of their mouth (and I'm not saying you were doing that specificly, but others have been). The biggest complaint that I see coming from fans the last several years is that the large influx of Cup drivers running in Nationwide or Truck races is that its killing the Nationwide only teams, that the little guy can't get it done because the big bad Cup boys are stealing all of their money and trophies...alot of these same people are the ones screaming that the races the cup guys win in the lower series don't count because of the "lesser" competition. Look at the top 10 finishing order of any Nationwide race in the last 8 or 9 years and it is a who's-who of good Cup drivers with good equipment, so I really don't see the competition as being watered down.

[slorydn1]

I finally put together the top-25 driver list in total combined wins, the only stipulations were that they had to have at least 1 cup series win (so sorry, no Hornaday or Skinner on this list) and were currently attempting races in 2009 in the Cup Series. This has been updated and is accurate as of now:

01) Mark Martin 90 (35,48,7)
02) Jeff Gordon 86 (81,5,0)
03) Greg Biffle 49 (14,19,16)
T4) Jeff Burton 48 (21,27,0)
T4) Kevin Harvick 48 (11,33,4)
06) Kyle Busch 47 (13,22,11)
07) Bill Elliot 45 (44,1,0)
08) Tony Stewart 43 (33,8,2)
T9) Jimmie Johnson 42 (41,1,0)
T9) Matt Kenseth 42 (18,24,0)
T9) Carl Edwards 42 (16,20,6)
12) Dale Earnhardt, Jr 40 (18,22,0)
13) Terry Labonte 34 (22,11,1)
14) Bobby Labonte 32 (21,10,1)
15) Kurt Busch 25 (19,2,4)
16) Ryan Newman 21 (13,7,1)
17) Joe Nemechek 20 (4,16,0)
18) Kasey Kahne 18 (9,7,2)
19) Michael Waltrip 15 (4,11,0)
20) Martin Truex 14 (1,15,0)
21) Denny Hamlin 13 (4,9,0)
22) Sterling Marlin 12 (10,2,0)
23) Jamie McMurray 10 (2,7,1)
24) Clint Bowyer 9 (2,6,1)
25) Elliot Sadler 8 (3,5,0)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Excellent work Slo...

Here is my feeling on the big guys dropping down. Running full seasons in RCR or Gibbs or Roush equipment is just shooting fish in a barrel. Sorry, it just is. If Carl Edwards runs a full season in a Roush Car, Shrubbie runs a Gibbs car for a full season and Clint Bowyer does a full season in the RCR car, and they are the ONLY Cup regulars running full Nationwide seasons, then the field isn't as deep as a Cup field and their results SHOULD reflect the lack of top drawer competition. Brad Keselowski running Jr's 88 isn't going to up to the standard now is he? We wont even go into the chances of Mike Annett or a Scott Speed running for Eddie Sharp or some similar team if they ran a full season.

The top guys have every right to run in the Nationwide or Truck series, and can run full seasons, but in the last 5 a few have done so and usually either won or been in the top 5. It is easy pickings. They SHOULD win if they have that top team.

That is where I respect the Shrub at least in his truck runs with Billy Ballew. Not a top team and he cherry picks his spots and takes no salary. THAT is more sporting to me and lets the regulars have their day as well.

I don't want to see the Nationwide series with a bunch of nobodies, and the series has generated the top guys of the Cup series; but I will never see Nationwide championships by full time Cup drivers as an achievement that should be crowed about either. In Cup, you have 20 cars that could win any race. In Nationwide, you might have 5 to 6 most races.....