The snitch

[Gluaistean]

I recall the snitch drinking orange juice at Indy. Should have known he'd betray his own country man and fellow racer.

[DBell]

If the rumor is true, that Helio screwed Emmo over when he made a deal with Penske and if Helio has been dodging his taxes, then I think it's a "reap what you sow" type situation. If Helio is proven guilty of tax fraud I have no sympathy for him. Zero.

[nigelred5]

Emmo was simply promoting his own orange business when he did that, it wasn't an intentional slight to indy.


Helio was under contract with Emmo to represent him as his agent. Helio negotiated and signed with Penske directly to deliberately cut Emmo out of his share. Helio likes his money. I want to see where that smile is on Helio's face when they hand him the Orange coveralls.

[DirtDevil5]

Emmo was simply promoting his own orange business when he did that, it wasn't an intentional slight to indy.


Helio was under contract with Emmo to represent him as his agent. Helio negotiated and signed with Penske directly to deliberately cut Emmo out of his share. Helio likes his money. I want to see where that smile is on Helio's face when they hand him the Orange coveralls.

true,, as I remember Emmo also drank milk at Indy after the OJ
no harm no foul
further, I also remember Emmo as being a gentlman racer with a
lot of class. Helio's not the naive racer with no business
sence he pretends to be, and will have his day in court.

[Jag_Warrior]

If Castroneves hadn't (allegedly) tried to cheat the American taxpayers, he wouldn't be in trouble now, would he?

Castroneves isn't half the driver that Fittipaldi was over the course of a legendary career, and it appears that he's also a crook. I'm not shedding any tears for him.

[Gluaistean]

Tradition, which is big in the US has always been that milk is drank after the driver exists the car. Not frigging orange juice, which I have a memory of him being a spokesperson.
On top of that, Helio is still innocent and for a guy like this "gentelman racer" he sure is not displaying it out of the car if the story is true.

When Casrto-Neves joined Penske he and the snitch were no longer doing business. The ties were severed after Hogans death.

[coogmaster]

Castroneves isn't half the driver that Fittipaldi was over the course of a legendary career, and it appears that he's also a crook. I'm not shedding any tears for him.

On top of that, "the snitch" never was accused of a federal crime in his career...

Emmo could still drive circles around Helio Castro-Nervous today, I bet.

[ShiftingGears]

Tradition, which is big in the US has always been that milk is drank after the driver exists the car. Not frigging orange juice, which I have a memory of him being a spokesperson.
On top of that, Helio is still innocent and for a guy like this "gentelman racer" he sure is not displaying it out of the car if the story is true.

When Casrto-Neves joined Penske he and the snitch were no longer doing business. The ties were severed after Hogans death.

So let me get this straight.

You actually think drinking orange juice is worse than being a tax fraud? Or are you just being sarcastic?

[beachbum]

Based on the filing, the "snitch" may have been Penske. As Helios employer, they have a legal responsibility to report any payments. The filing indicated that Penske's lawyers advised Helio that they could no longer pay him offshore, and that they "cooperated" with the IRS investigation. The Penske organization is too big to project anyone other than themselves, and there were more than a few hints they reported the activity to the IRS. Anyone watching this case can see the Penske organization is listed as a witness, not a defendent.

The "snitch" may also have been Helios tax filings themselves. The IRS always has a number of actions that will red flag an account to be looked at. Offshore tax shelters almost always get examined. In one report, even Helios lawyer, Miller, advised him that any such activity would almost assuredly be examined very closely by the IRS.

The courts will decide if Helio broke the law and must pay for a crime. In today's economic climate, anyone cheating on taxes is probably not going to find much leniency in the system.

[Gluaistean]

So let me get this straight.

You actually think drinking orange juice is worse than being a tax fraud? Or are you just being sarcastic?


Who said drinking orange juice was worse than a tax fraud? By the way, has there been a conviction or just an angry old timer that was once a good racer getting all upset because he could not add more to his million dollar bank account so he SNITCHED on his former client.

As the old adage goes, throw enough ***** and some of it will stick.

Oh, and by the way, as I said, tradition is pretty important, kinda like the Maori doing their dance before every rugby game or the Australians with their boomerangs

[994ever]

Who said drinking orange juice was worse than a tax fraud? By the way, has there been a conviction or just an angry old timer that was once a good racer getting all upset because he could not add more to his million dollar bank account so he SNITCHED on his former client.



I'm sure you are simply neglecting to mention that there is absolutely nothing but conjecture and rumour to your bizarrely angry assertion that Emmo had anything to do with this. After all, you are beating the "innocent until proven guilty" drum for Helio so loudly...

[markabilly]

So does this mean Helio will not be racing at Indy, this year?

Or did Helio "retire" after penske decided to drop him?

[markabilly]

If Castroneves

Castroneves isn't half the driver that Fittipaldi was over the course of a legendary career, .


But he is a far better dancer and appears to be a far bigger crook, so THERE
and most importantly, looks better in a swim suit and sequins

[ShiftingGears]

Who said drinking orange juice was worse than a tax fraud? By the way, has there been a conviction or just an angry old timer that was once a good racer getting all upset because he could not add more to his million dollar bank account so he SNITCHED on his former client.

WTF? What does Fittipaldi have to do with any of this?


Australians with their boomerangs

Yeah, we use them all the time.

[Gluaistean]

WTF? What does Fittipaldi have to do with any of this?

He is the person quoted as being the SNITCH. Comprende?


Yeah, we use them all the time.

I'm glad you do....that's why I mentioned them.

[Chris R]

The courts will eventually have the final say in this matter.... If Helio really did something wrong than nobody is "snitching" - if he didn't than whoever "turned him in" (I am not convinced that any one person caused this investigation to start or progress) is certainly worthy of harsh criticism/ universal disdain.......

As far as driving talent - Helio is good - but Emmo is/was great - there is no comparison and that is in no way a criticism of Castroneves.....

[PA Rick]

I recall the snitch drinking orange juice at Indy. Should have known he'd betray his own country man and fellow racer.

Emmo had a huge investment in the Brazilian Orange industry. I don't blame him for drinking the OJ. The main reason there is the milk drinking tradition is because the Dairy industry pays Indy money.
I think Tony did way more to kill traditions than this petty incident.
It is honest and patriotic to pay taxes. It is dishonest to not pay your taxes. It is honorable to report someone who is not paying their taxes.

[Civic]

From what I remember, Helio was signed or intended to sign with Hogan or Walker (if Walker kept Honda engines). It wasn't until Greg Moore's passing that Helio went to Penske.

Anyways, it would've been a joy to see Moore with Penske. I always wonder if he would've gelled with the team and win many races and championships, or if he would've not find rhythm in the team and end up a disappointment like when Kenny Brack went to Ganassi.

[nigelred5]

Who says they even had to like each other in the first place just because both are Brazilian. Massa and Barichello certainly don't appear to like each other one bit.

[Mad_Hatter]

I thought Massa and Barrichello got along just fine, Massa invited RB to his charity kart race.

[ShiftingGears]

.

Now I have the Fittipaldi issue sorted out, what did he do wrong?

If Helio is in the wrong according to the courts, Fittipaldi did the right thing.

[peasant]

Tax evasion to the US government who blow trillions on bogus wars is that big a deal? You people like paying your taxes that much? You'd think it was equivalent to murder, rape, GBH or such like the way a lot of you purist internet Dweebs carry on. Seriously do you really GAF that much about Tax evasion?

[DBell]

Sorry, but that's a pretty ignorant statement. When someone with a very large income evades paying their taxes, that means that the ordinary people, 98% of the population, who don't have a choice about paying their taxes get stuck with picking up the tab. Sure, government could be one heck of a lot more efficient, but it does render some valuable services.

Your attitude reminds me of those who don't see any problem with shoplifting because the store "makes so much profit they'll never miss it". Well the store doesn't miss it because they jack up the price to cover the expected loss and all of the rest of the customers pay for the theft. All the rest of the US citizens pay for it when someone doesn't pay their taxes and that's stealing from me and you.

Very well said. Bravo!

[nigelred5]

If you want to work and live in this country and benefit from our society, you pay your taxes just like everyone else. No one LIKES taxes, but If I have to pay them, so should he. I'm honest, I don't look for every questionable loophole. I pay my taxes I'm supposed to pay, and If I don't pay my taxes, I will end up in a Federal Penitentiary. If he blatantly evaded paying taxes, So should he. He has certainly benefitted tremendously from living and working in this country.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tax evasion to the US government who blow trillions on bogus wars is that big a deal? You people like paying your taxes that much? You'd think it was equivalent to murder, rape, GBH or such like the way a lot of you purist internet Dweebs carry on. Seriously do you really GAF that much about Tax evasion?


Once again, the average citizen makes judgement about something without 3 seconds of thought. You know how stupid that sounds?

Paying taxes is a necessity of life in a civilized society. People who evade paying them are criminals. People in politics who WASTE them are silly, stupid and vain, but since the people elected them, they are getting the government they deserve. Of course...that still doesn't justify not paying one's taxes. If I withheld taxes from governments in my country I didn't agree with, I would have spent a lot of time in jail my friend.....

[edv]

Tax Evasion = Crime
Minimising Tax = Noble Pursuit

[Jag_Warrior]

So is Harry Markopolos a "snitch" for giving the SEC info on Bernie Madoff about a decade ago? :rolleyes:

What I find interesting is that generally honest, law abiding people don't have a problem with "snitching". Criminals, crooks and gang banging thugs... they seem to be the people who have a major problem with "snitching".

[Gluaistean]

So is Harry Markopolos a "snitch" for giving the SEC info on Bernie Madoff about a decade ago? :rolleyes:

What I find interesting is that generally honest, law abiding people don't have a problem with "snitching". Criminals, crooks and gang banging thugs... they seem to be the people who have a major problem with "snitching".

Exposing wrongdoing because of it's inherent immorality is one thing. Pointing a finger and making an accusation (snitching) because of spite is an entirely different moral equivalency.

Most law abiding people do not have a problem with exposing wrongs committed by others. Don't you have an inclination as to why there is a separate word such as "snitch" and "rat" as distinct from whistleblower?

[Gluaistean]

Sorry, but that's a pretty ignorant statement. When someone with a very large income evades paying their taxes, that means that the ordinary people, 98% of the population, who don't have a choice about paying their taxes get stuck with picking up the tab. Sure, government could be one heck of a lot more efficient, but it does render some valuable services.

Your attitude reminds me of those who don't see any problem with shoplifting because the store "makes so much profit they'll never miss it". Well the store doesn't miss it because they jack up the price to cover the expected loss and all of the rest of the customers pay for the theft. All the rest of the US citizens pay for it when someone doesn't pay their taxes and that's stealing from me and you.


In "your" opinion it is an "ignorant" statement. For you as a moderator, to lambaste the opinion of another poster is out of line considering your position on the forum.

As a moderator you should keep your opinions about the impact of a post to yourself unless you offer an alternate point of view without being personal.

[DanicaFan]

Peasant probably doesnt live in the USA, so I wouldnt even give a second thought on what he says about the country. :D

[anthonyvop]

Does anyone have any proof that Emerson reported Helio to the IRS?

I don't think so.

What we do know is that the lawsuit went all the way to the Florida Supreme court and that Helio's finances were public record because of that.

You don't think that the US Attorney doesn't have people looking into big lawsuits for just this sort of thing?

It was Helio himself who caused his own downfall. If he had settled with Emerson instead of going to court he would have been in Homestead preparing for the upcoming season.

[beachbum]

Peasant probably doesnt live in the USA, so I wouldnt even give a second thought on what he says about the country. :D Gee that's pretty brutal. Actually, the post was so "out there" that it wasn't worth commenting on, regardless of the source.

However, along those lines, I find it odd that some people think that Helio deserves special treatment just because of who he is, or because they don't like the tax laws or whatever. The law is what it is. It says what you can and can not do. It doesn't have rules for everyday people and special rules for celebrities.

My spouse works for a CPA who specializes in tax law and has a lot of high end clients. They know almost nothing about Helios specific case, but did point out that foreign tax shelters have very strict and very well defined rules and are high risk. There are typically under the IRS microscope. Forget to dot the i or cross the T, and you stand a very good chance of being prosecuted. Nearly all prosecutions are successful and nearly all result in Club Fed time. In the case of foreign nationals (like Helio and his sister), deportation is almost automatic after their "vacation". His latest claim that he and his sister are not the owners of the investment seems like a very high risk defense, as the government filing indicated they had documentary proof. Lost that limited argument and lose the case.

I like Helio. Regardless of how he got into this mess, and how it started, he had to know the risks involved. I just don't see how he can "dance" his way out of this one.

[Gluaistean]

I'm so glad that you've been able to explain my duties as Moderator after all these years. The Mods are free to post anytime we wish, we are board members too. Most of us do post.

As for your post just above this one, the only people who use the term "snitch" and similar ones are usually criminals. We'll see after Helio's trial whether the person who reported him was a "snitch" or a "whistleblower". By your terms it could go either way, right? It's your rush to judgement because 1) you don't know if he's guilty or not and 2) you have made an unsubstantiated assumption as to who may have reported him. I'd suggest you clean up your own act before you accuse anyone else of improper behavoir.


Excuse me!!! Clean up my act???!!! Who or whom do you think you are speaking to with your condescending attitude. If you post on a regular basis you should do so as a forum member not as a moderator. That in itself should be the criteria used by whomever it is that grants you the exalted powers of the chosen few.

You are taking poetic license by your implication that the said term is used by "criminals" in the majority. Is this based upon fact proven by a study or just something you decided upon, hence, the poetic license.

As regards the "assumption". If you read what you claim to have done this whole thread is based upon an assumption.

Now as a moderator you can close the thread if you wish thereby proving the fact that you should post as a forum member and not as a adjudicator...or not.

[garyshell]

Excuse me!!! Clean up my act???!!! Who or whom do you think you are speaking to with your condescending attitude. If you post on a regular basis you should do so as a forum member not as a moderator. That in itself should be the criteria used by whomever it is that grants you the exalted powers of the chosen few.

He does post here on a regular basis as a forum member and also in the thankless role of moderator.

So what's with the holier than thou attitude that presumes YOU get to decide if Starter is allowed to voice his OWN opinion or not. He does a damn fine job here.

Gary

[beachbum]

He does post here on a regular basis as a forum member and also in the thankless role of moderator.

So what's with the holier than thou attitude that presumes YOU get to decide if Starter is allowed to voice his OWN opinion or not. He does a damn fine job here.

GaryAgreed. Stater is one of the few moderators on any forum who is both active on the forum and still manages to be very fair. I can think of at least one forum where any criticism of a moderator will get you banned.

[Jag_Warrior]

Exposing wrongdoing because of it's inherent immorality is one thing. Pointing a finger and making an accusation (snitching) because of spite is an entirely different moral equivalency.

Most law abiding people do not have a problem with exposing wrongs committed by others. Don't you have an inclination as to why there is a separate word such as "snitch" and "rat" as distinct from whistleblower?

I'd say you're playing a game of semantics. First, you have no evidence (that I've seen here) that anyone did anything to Helio Castroneves based on spite. And even if they did, so what? Was a crime committed or not? That's all that matters to me. The motivation for providing information might be based on a need for justice, spite/revenge or financial gain (a reward). Second, the U.S Attorney won't file charges, and the U.S. Marshals won't slap shackles on your ankles, if there isn't sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed and a great likelihood that a conviction can be secured. Now, that doesn't mean that the suspect will be found guilty. But it does mean that there was greater evidence than just the word of a "snitch", or a "whistleblower" or whatever, that caused Mr. Castroneves to have to do the old perp walk into the Federal courthouse some months ago.

If someone wants to be an apologist for Castroneves and those of his apparent ilk, that's fine. But the fact remains that he was charged with multiple felony counts of tax evasion and conspiracy. If there is evidence that he was set up, that's another matter. But I have no problem at all with providing information to the authorities on a person believed to be committing a Federal crime.

[peasant]

Tax Evasion = Crime
Minimising Tax = Noble Pursuit

Exactly.

My main point was actually in regards to the excessive moralisation against some dumb greedy brazilian motor racer. Naughty boy - big deal. How many Haliburton execs are going to be investigated for forms of war profiteering that costs the lives of soldiers? Get it in perspective - Large corporations avoid paying Tax on a massive level - but Helio is terrible Because he didn't do it the right way?? Perhaps B4 dismissing a point some of you should try to understand it first.

[peasant]

Peasant probably doesnt live in the USA, so I wouldn't even give a second thought on what he says about the country. :D


It's insular thinking like that which helps give your country such a bad reputation internationally

Try to consider two points

1. The US isn't the only country with Taxes

2. The aggressions of the US under the Bush administration had/has a major impact on the international environment. You give a public performance - you can expect public reaction/opinion/comment.

[Gluaistean]

He does post here on a regular basis as a forum member and also in the thankless role of moderator.

So what's with the holier than thou attitude that presumes YOU get to decide if Starter is allowed to voice his OWN opinion or not. He does a damn fine job here.

Gary

Damn, do you read???!!!! What was suggested was he post as a member on a topic where he calls another contributor by disparaging names, not as a moderator. That was the message like it or not, which, you and others have chosen to ignore.

Reminds me of why Seveth Gear ended up closing down. Selective thinking.

Nothing whatsoever mentioned about what he should post about. Read the post in it's entirety and if something is not plain enough for you I'll explain. At least I'll try since you seem to have ignored me so far.

[garyshell]

Damn, do you read???!!!! What was suggested was he post as a member on a topic where he calls another contributor by disparaging names, not as a moderator. That was the message like it or not, which, you and others have chosen to ignore.

I don't. Personally, I think its a GREAT idea that it is obvious that one of our own is doing the moderation, not some uninterested bystander. It insures that moderation is done with an UNDERSTANDING of the personalities and topics being moderated. If the moderation were done under another user name, we'd have no idea if that moderator was "one of us".


At least I'll try since you seem to have ignored me so far.

And with that attitude, will continue to.

Gary

[Gluaistean]

I don't. Personally, I think its a GREAT idea that it is obvious that one of our own is doing the moderation, not some uninterested bystander. It insures that moderation is done with an UNDERSTANDING of the personalities and topics being moderated. If the moderation were done under another user name, we'd have no idea if that moderator was "one of us".



And with that attitude, will continue to.

Gary


It breaks my heart that you will ignore me by posting a response so carefully, yet once again ignoring the point. Either, you are unable to comprehend or worse you don't want to.

[garyshell]

If you post on a regular basis you should do so as a forum member not as a moderator.


He does post here on a regular basis as a forum member and also in the thankless role of moderator.


Personally, I think its a GREAT idea that it is obvious that one of our own is doing the moderation, not some uninterested bystander. It insures that moderation is done with an UNDERSTANDING of the personalities and topics being moderated. If the moderation were done under another user name, we'd have no idea if that moderator was "one of us".



It breaks my heart that you will ignore me by posting a response so carefully, yet once again ignoring the point. Either, you are unable to comprehend or worse you don't want to.

One final attempt. Just what point was I ignoring? I commented on your insistance that Starter must separate his roles as a member and a moderator. I think it is a good idea that he does NOT separate those roles. And indicated why I felt that way. So now tell me exactly, what point was I ignoring?

Gary

[beachbum]

It breaks my heart that you will ignore me by posting a response so carefully, yet once again ignoring the point. Either, you are unable to comprehend or worse you don't want to.Whatever point you were trying to make was lost in the back and forth bickering. Time to move on. IMHO no one cares what the point is / was.

If you don't like the way this forum is being moderated, or the opinions of those posting, try another forum. This isn't the only racing forum.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's insular thinking like that which helps give your country such a bad reputation internationally

Try to consider two points

1. The US isn't the only country with Taxes

2. The aggressions of the US under the Bush administration had/has a major impact on the international environment. You give a public performance - you can expect public reaction/opinion/comment.

Peasent, You make it sound like evading taxes if it is someone you like is ok, but if a corporation who makes a profit ( horrors, imagine that, making money!) who tries to find ways to not pay tax is wrong. Well pal, it is the way of every nation.

The issue is Helio is being charged with criminal actions that cause him to avoid paying taxes to the IRS and US Government. They are criminal because they were outside the law. Now he isn't proven guilty of this but he is charged and it was probably a combination of a lot of things that allowed the charges to be filed. A snitch ( a term used usually by criminals as it was pointed out ) was likely not involved. The IRS is very adept at finding their own targets for prosecution. Just like Revenue Canada is in my country. They are one of the few departments of government that IS efficient at their job.

Now you want to use all of this to take shots at the US and Gluaistean wants to rip Starter for having an opinion. I now know why posters are not posting at the same rate they used to. They get tired of being side tracked on stupid arguments.

Starter has done an outstanding job on this forum of separating his moderating role from his race fan role. Out of all the Moddy's he is the most at home here and his opinion is valued.....

[Gluaistean]

Whatever point you were trying to make was lost in the back and forth bickering. Time to move on. IMHO no one cares what the point is / was.

If you don't like the way this forum is being moderated, or the opinions of those posting, try another forum. This isn't the only racing forum.

I'll move when I wish to. If you're lost then try to find your way. Was it me that created the tangent?

[peasant]

Peasent, You make it sound like evading taxes if it is someone you like is ok, but if a corporation who makes a profit ( horrors, imagine that, making money!) who tries to find ways to not pay tax is wrong. Well pal, it is the way of every nation.

The issue is Helio is being charged with criminal actions that cause him to avoid paying taxes to the IRS and US Government. They are criminal because they were outside the law. Now he isn't proven guilty of this but he is charged and it was probably a combination of a lot of things that allowed the charges to be filed. A snitch ( a term used usually by criminals as it was pointed out ) was likely not involved. The IRS is very adept at finding their own targets for prosecution. Just like Revenue Canada is in my country. They are one of the few departments of government that IS efficient at their job.

Now you want to use all of this to take shots at the US and Gluaistean wants to rip Starter for having an opinion. I now know why posters are not posting at the same rate they used to. They get tired of being side tracked on stupid arguments.

Starter has done an outstanding job on this forum of separating his moderating role from his race fan role. Out of all the Moddy's he is the most at home here and his opinion is valued.....

A. Helio annoys me a lot
B. I'm saying that put in perspective helio's 'crime' is actually pretty tame, and far worse things are going on that aren't technically crimes - but far more morally repugnant.
C. I don't GAF what starter calls me, and have no issue with his posts, so please quote the relevant person in a separate post - because it seems like your lumping me in with that.

D. What's so bad about thread derailment anyway?? :LOL:

[DanicaFan]

Well, the jury selection was made today. It consists of 7 women and 5 men. They will hear opening statements from both the prosecutor and defense attorneys tomorrow.