R.I.P Saab?

[Woodeye]

So it seems that G.M managed to kill Saab. Well done. :mad:

Swedish government won't grant any loans to keep Saab alive, so it seems that the brand will die.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/17/news/companies/auto_plans/index.htm?cnn=yes

I really hope that Obama won't give any more money to G.M. I wouldn't be sad at all if that american crap would disappear from markets. After all, company led so bad for the last 20 years shouldn't be supported by the government.

[Cooper_S]

To loose Saab would be a sad day indeed... but someone even in this climate would buy Saab.

[vauxhall corsa]

It will be sad to see saab go.

[driveace]

It will be very sad to see the demise os Saab .When you think of Saab you think of Eric Carlsson,Stig Blomquist,Per Eklund and all the success of that famous marque

[Drew]

If I had a family I would buy a Saab 9-3 estate, if that's any concilation to them :p :

[Woodeye]

If I'd had the money I would buy the 9-3 as well. But it's too expensive.

And that's exactly what GM did wrong. They bought the brand, but didn't put any stakes behind it. No new models, no "prices from" -models, nothing basically. They just kept the 9-5 (9000) and 9-3 (900) in the portfolio with quite a big engines. They would've needed at least few models more with cheaper prices to survive.

I hate to see the other from the 2 nordic car brands to die away. If that happens I promise to buy Volvo as my next car.

That's if Ford don't ruin it before I have the money. :(

[A.F.F.]

Sabism is sickness. I'm glad it dies away. Volvo is almost as bad. :down:

[BDunnell]

It will be very sad to see the demise os Saab .When you think of Saab you think of Eric Carlsson,Stig Blomquist,Per Eklund and all the success of that famous marque

All things that happened over 30 years ago.

[Rollo]

We knew this two months ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/business/03auto.html?_r=2&em

G.M. said it planned to focus on four core brands — Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC — and sell, eliminate or consolidate the Saturn, Saab, Hummer and Pontiac brands.

Even Mr Woodeye said something strangely prophetic:

And thanks a bunch for killing Saab. :( (yes, I know it's not dead yet, but for sure it will be in the near future.)

Related, a similar story is happening in Australia:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25072760-5005961,00.html

The GM plan put to the US treasury department said the company might need up to $US30 billion ($47.02 billion) in Government loans as it implemented a survival strategy that included cutting 47,000 jobs, including 26,000 from outside the US.

Basically, any GM brand outside of North America need to cut itself loose somehow or else face oblivion.

Thanks a bunch GM. Just hurry up and die already.

[Valve Bounce]

Sabism is sickness. I'm glad it dies away. Volvo is almost as bad. :down:
There's nothing wrong with my Cross Country. :up:

[Jag_Warrior]

Was the Saab 9-2x ever available in Europe? If so, how did it do?

It was basically a slightly restyled Subaru WRX, with somewhat better options.

[Cooper_S]

I believe the 9-2x was a north American market only... as the Subaru it is based upon is sold here it would make no sense as they would steal sales from each other

[Rollo]

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=13882#article

I guess that the proposed Saab 9-1 will now never happen at all. Admittedly the rumor was that it was going to based off of the Astra but thanks to GM's ineptness that plan is I fear, no more.

[Jag_Warrior]

I believe the 9-2x was a north American market only... as the Subaru it is based upon is sold here it would make no sense as they would steal sales from each other

I think we've had the Impreza since the 90's and the WRX since 2002. We got the STI (sedan only) in 2004. I think the Saabaru series came to us as MY05 models.

But it sounds like N.A. was the only market where the Saabaru 9-2x was sold?

[Woodeye]

But it sounds like N.A. was the only market where the Saabaru 9-2x was sold?

Yes it was. I think there was a plan to bring it to Europe as well, but not anymore I guess.


Sabism is sickness. I'm glad it dies away. Volvo is almost as bad.

You're just being Swede...ofobic. :)

[Daniel]

Errrr didn't Saab die the moment GM took them over and went from producing the Saabish 900i to the GMish 900s?

Goodbye and good riddance to a brand that had been dead on its feet for almost 20 years.

[Camelopard]

Do SAAB still make planes? I guess GM only bought the car side of it.

What about Scania, does that still exist, again I guess it's a separate entity to SAAB cars.

[wedge]

Errrr didn't Saab die the moment GM took them over and went from producing the Saabish 900i to the GMish 900s?

Goodbye and good riddance to a brand that had been dead on its feet for almost 20 years.

They used to be a brand to aspire to and living off past glories like the 900 Turbo.

GM have been unsure how Saab could carve a niche for itself.

[Woodeye]

Do SAAB still make planes? I guess GM only bought the car side of it.

What about Scania, does that still exist, again I guess it's a separate entity to SAAB cars.

Scania does still exist and as far as I know they are owned by Swedish investors. I'm not saying that Scania is going strong, but hey, at least still alive. Saab still makes planes and other defence related stuff I guess.

GM bought the cars. But I never undestood why since they didn't invest anything to the brand. Suprise it died for Petes sake. :mad:

The 9-5 with a Diesel engine is one of the most comfortable cars I've ever been in.

[driveace]

Scania still exist and make probably the 2nd most popular modern truck,the old models used to be called SCANIA-VABIS

[Malbec]

GM bought the cars. But I never undestood why since they didn't invest anything to the brand. Suprise it died for Petes sake. :mad:

GM bought SAAB because SAAB buyers tend to be fanatical. When GM bought the company about 70% of SAAB buyers bought another SAAB as their replacement, a figure no other car company came close to matching. IMO GM failed with SAAB because they didn't understand why people kept buying SAABs even when they were out of date compared to their rivals.

I agree with you, GM never tried to give SAAB a chance to develop a proper car, just rebodied Opels that never stood a chance. Given what Ford did with Volvo the difference is obvious. It would be a crying shame if SAAB went to the wall now.

[Daniel]

GM bought SAAB because SAAB buyers tend to be fanatical. When GM bought the company about 70% of SAAB buyers bought another SAAB as their replacement, a figure no other car company came close to matching. IMO GM failed with SAAB because they didn't understand why people kept buying SAABs even when they were out of date compared to their rivals.

I agree with you, GM never tried to give SAAB a chance to develop a proper car, just rebodied Opels that never stood a chance. Given what Ford did with Volvo the difference is obvious. It would be a crying shame if SAAB went to the wall now.
I think what Ford did with Volvo isn't really all that better. I wouldn't say modern Volvos are anything like Volvos of old.

[Daniel]

They used to be a brand to aspire to and living off past glories like the 900 Turbo.

GM have been unsure how Saab could carve a niche for itself.

Very true.

Saab owners love their cars.

My parents have an old school 900 and have spent loads of money fixing it over the years and Caroline's sister has a convertible 900 and she's spent loads of money sorting it and even though she's not a car person she actually came out and said that she didn't want a later one because there was too much GM influence on them and they weren't Saab's anymore. My dad is a car nut and he feels the same. Likes the badge but doesn't like the fact that they're not Saabs anymore. My dad is a nut though. Just him and my mum and they've got the folllowing

Saab 900
Toyota Hiace van
Volvo 940
Peugeot 504
and a 60's Fiat 500

[Woodeye]

I think what Ford did with Volvo isn't really all that better. I wouldn't say modern Volvos are anything like Volvos of old.

Not completely true. Partly yes, but not completely.

XC90 is totally big, ugly as h*ll and totally useless in every way possible = must be from U.S. And then V40 and V50, even though those are fine cars they are just Ford Focuses with different batches.

But then we have the V70, my personal favourite. The most recent one is just awesome but still has the old Volvo -feeling. Never drove one, but I've been sitting at the backseat about million times, in taxis here in Helsinki and in Stockholm as well. :)

[GridGirl]

Saab won't be the first and the wont be the last. I'm currently working at a Subaru, Isuzu and Fiat dealership that has only managed to sell one new car this year. A friend quite high up in Vauxhall also told me how many they'd sold this year on a national level and thats shocking low.

My step dad's dream car is a Saab...sadly he's just stuck with his Scania! :)

[Malbec]

I think what Ford did with Volvo isn't really all that better. I wouldn't say modern Volvos are anything like Volvos of old.

Depends on what you mean by old. Ford didn't want their Volvos to look like 240s or 740s so they went further back to the Amazon for styling cues, I don't think thats a bad thing.

More importantly Volvo went from being a two model range to having the full set up. SAAB went from having two quirky but charismatic models to having two mainstream and boring ones. Ford did better which is why Volvo is profitable these days.

[Rollo]

So it seems that G.M managed to kill Saab. Well done. :mad:

I really hope that Obama won't give any more money to G.M. I wouldn't be sad at all if that american crap would disappear from markets. After all, company led so bad for the last 20 years shouldn't be supported by the government.

It would appear as though GM wants to take taxpayers money from more governments than just Sweden and the USA:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/4691657/GM-seeks-partner-for-ailing-Vauxhall.html
GM claims it needs about $6bn in support from the governments of Canada, Germany, Britain, Sweden and Thailand to strengthen operations in those countries. However, the plea has been heavily criticised in Europe.

Maud Olofsson, the Swedish industry minister said: "They have in practice removed their hand from Saab. Instead they are handing over responsibility to Swedish taxpayers."

How far do we want to see this go? The removal of Opel & Vauxhall as well? Why should governments be liable for the mistakes of a foreign company? Bankruptcy and penal time are the only sensible course of action left.

[Daniel]

Depends on what you mean by old. Ford didn't want their Volvos to look like 240s or 740s so they went further back to the Amazon for styling cues, I don't think thats a bad thing.

More importantly Volvo went from being a two model range to having the full set up. SAAB went from having two quirky but charismatic models to having two mainstream and boring ones. Ford did better which is why Volvo is profitable these days.

How do the current cars look like Amazons?

I won't disagree that Ford did "better" but that's like saying a punch in the face is better than having your head blown off with a shotgun. I'd rather have neither and I'd rather have not seen the big 2 buy these two great carmakers and stop them making their great cars.

Just like a Vectra with a Saabeque body isn't a Saab a Mondeo or Focus with a Volvoeque body isn't a Volvo. If you look at the brand values which made Volvos and Saabs what they were in the 70's and 80's and with Volvo still into the 90's you see that platform marketing just doesn't quite work if you want to keep their identities in place.

[Easy Drifter]

GM and Chrysler are both asking for Billions from Canada and Ont. Our manufacturing is so interwoven with the US that Canada and Ont. are providing money. Ont. is the only province with huge car and truck plants of all the US companies plus Toyota and Honda.
Both the Feds and Ont. are willing to provide money but want to be given a business plan to ensure the Companies' survival and eventual payback. The Cdn. Autoworkers Union is also expected to make concessions. With benifits the Cdn. auto workers at the US big three make more than their US counterparts.
GM's Cobalt uses a SAAB engine but the Cobalt is going to be dropped in a year or so. It is one of GM's biggest sellers but is a little long in the tooth, so they will drop it rather than make improvements. Go figure. Oh and I drive a Cobalt. It is a pretty good car.
GM has had plants in Canada since GM's inception.

[driveace]

Latest news on Sky is that SAAB are trying to become an independant company again ,which could be a good move if they are allowed or it comes off.BUT these are difficult times as we all know!

[Malbec]

How do the current cars look like Amazons?

I won't disagree that Ford did "better" but that's like saying a punch in the face is better than having your head blown off with a shotgun. I'd rather have neither and I'd rather have not seen the big 2 buy these two great carmakers and stop them making their great cars.

Just like a Vectra with a Saabeque body isn't a Saab a Mondeo or Focus with a Volvoeque body isn't a Volvo. If you look at the brand values which made Volvos and Saabs what they were in the 70's and 80's and with Volvo still into the 90's you see that platform marketing just doesn't quite work if you want to keep their identities in place.

Volvos have a strong waistline running along their body now, thats from the Amazon, they are curvier and more stylish, again more like the Amazon than the 240 and 740.

I guess it depends what you're comparing Ford/GM to. I thought SAAB and Volvo were looking for buyers as they weren't big enough or profitable enough to carry on on their own, so they'd have had to find someone else to buy them if not the Yanks. I don't think anyone else would have done things substantially differently to Ford. Platform sharing hasn't diluted Volvo's safety image, its just that they are better looking and have newer platforms so safety isn't their only strong point any more.

[Daniel]

Volvos have a strong waistline running along their body now, thats from the Amazon, they are curvier and more stylish, again more like the Amazon than the 240 and 740.

I'm sorry but the curves are simply something that came with time. You need only look at the original S40 to see that Volvos weren't always blocky. Sure it's more like the Amazon but a lot of cars have stronger waistlines and are curvier these days.

[Malbec]

I'm sorry but the curves are simply something that came with time. You need only look at the original S40 to see that Volvos weren't always blocky. Sure it's more like the Amazon but a lot of cars have stronger waistlines and are curvier these days.

I can't remember his name but I read several articles on Ford's new guy at Volvo who was heading the renaissance there. He specifically stated many times that he was looking at the Amazon and the coupe, (can't remember the name but it was in 'the Saint') for cues rather than the 240 and 740. You're right that other companies were doing the same thing at the same time but when the designer talks about his influences I tend to believe him.

BTW the S40 design was strongly influenced by the fact that Mitsubishi didn't want a cube for a saloon...

[Daniel]

I can't remember his name but I read several articles on Ford's new guy at Volvo who was heading the renaissance there. He specifically stated many times that he was looking at the Amazon and the coupe, (can't remember the name but it was in 'the Saint') for cues rather than the 240 and 740. You're right that other companies were doing the same thing at the same time but when the designer talks about his influences I tend to believe him.

BTW the S40 design was strongly influenced by the fact that Mitsubishi didn't want a cube for a saloon...

That would be the P1800 and I can see even less of the P1800 in modern Volvos tbh!

http://volvo1800pictures.com/a_E_71_104/Volvo_1800E_71_104_1934_80.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Volvo_P1800.jpg


Tbh I think marketing BS like this is hilarious :)

One could say that modern Volvos draw influences from 105 series Alfa Romeos ....

http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/1972_Alfa_Romeo_GT_Junior_BOBCOR_Front_1.jpg

....and so many other cars which have a high waistline and curves :)

[Cooper_S]

Forget that Saab.... the Alfa is just beautiful... but I'd rather have a BMW 2002Tii

[Malbec]

Perhaps you're right Daniel, but the fact remains that Ford managed to make Volvos look more attractive while remaining recognizably Volvos by harking back to their heritage. That isn't a failure in my book.

You still haven't told me who else you'd have wanted to take Volvo over, or how Volvo would have raised the capital to develop new models without being taken over though ;) .

[Daniel]

Latest news on Sky is that SAAB are trying to become an independant company again ,which could be a good move if they are allowed or it comes off.BUT these are difficult times as we all know!
That would be great. I wonder if that's what the Swedish government is aiming to do, why bail out a foreign company when you can get ownership back in Sweden and then at least the bailout money stays in the country.

[Jag_Warrior]

Saab files for bankruptcy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/20/automotive-generalmotors

[BDunnell]

It is sad, but, rather like Rover, it's hardly unexpected.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Why would anyone buy a Saab over a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus etc? They were a bit anonymous in the market.

[Cooper_S]

Individuality?.... the only car I know where you insert the ignition key between the front seats...

No company has a right to survive if they are not profitable, but it is still a real sad end...

[Woodeye]

That would be great. I wonder if that's what the Swedish government is aiming to do, why bail out a foreign company when you can get ownership back in Sweden and then at least the bailout money stays in the country.

Getting the ownership back by paiyng billions of euros for a company that wasn't done profit in the last 10 years would be a bit silly, right? As hard it must be, I think that the government is doing the right thing now, Swedish taxpayers shouldn't be the ones that should pay the mistakes done by GM.


It is sad, but, rather like Rover, it's hardly unexpected.

I think it's not same at all. Rover was hardly sold nowhere else than in U.K. Saab has sold well (in 90's) for example in U.S.


Why would anyone buy a Saab over a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus etc? They were a bit anonymous in the market. Me for example. If I'd had the money to buy any of these I would've picked Saab. Why? Because it's legendary Nordic car brand, made in Finland once and known for it's great quality. I would never buy a Lexus for example. Luxury Toyota, that's all that is. Yack.

Latest news related to GM tell that Opel is also in the verge of bankcrupty. So it's not only 1, it might be 2 european car brands that will die because of GM. U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!! :mad:

[Daniel]

Individuality?.... the only car I know where you insert the ignition key between the front seats...

No company has a right to survive if they are not profitable, but it is still a real sad end...

I agree. But Saab could be profitable for sure as they have product which people liked and their buyers were loyal and are still loyal even with the current products. Their product was great and people loved it. Most people won't know but the whole key between the front seats thing was to help in accidents. Think of what the key in the steering column does in the event of an accident and which part of your body needed for walking it will mangle the crap out of.


Getting the ownership back by paiyng billions of euros for a company that wasn't done profit in the last 10 years would be a bit silly, right? As hard it must be, I think that the government is doing the right thing now, Swedish taxpayers shouldn't be the ones that should pay the mistakes done by GM.



I think it's not same at all. Rover was hardly sold nowhere else than in U.K. Saab has sold well (in 90's) for example in U.S.

Me for example. If I'd had the money to buy any of these I would've picked Saab. Why? Because it's legendary Nordic car brand, made in Finland once and known for it's great quality. I would never buy a Lexus for example. Luxury Toyota, that's all that is. Yack.

Latest news related to GM tell that Opel is also in the verge of bankcrupty. So it's not only 1, it might be 2 european car brands that will die because of GM. U.S.A! U.S.A! U.S.A!! :mad:

Well there is talk of Vauxhall, Opel and Saab getting together because of this so it's not all bad.

At least someone appreciates Saab's :up:

My mum has a 1990 Saab 900i and it's a freaking great car :) Comfortable as anything to drive and even though winters in Perth are pretty damn mild your arse still thanked you for the heated front seats. The interior is great for the age and the car is just lovely and my mum will probably murder my dad if he tries to sell it and get her to drive the Volvo 940 he bought last year.

[Woodeye]

Well there is talk of Vauxhall, Opel and Saab getting together because of this so it's not all bad.

What's the difference between Open and Vauxhall? I thought that Vauxhall's are just Opels with different batches?

[Daniel]

What's the difference between Open and Vauxhall? I thought that Vauxhall's are just Opels with different batches?
I know :) I just mean as companies they could possibly become one.

[Cooper_S]

What's the difference between Open and Vauxhall? I thought that Vauxhall's are just Opels with different batches?

That is for the most part true, but not a popular thought when expressed in the UK... They assembly most Vauxhalls in the UK but even in Ireand which is a RHD market we drive Opels not Vauxhalls... all product design is from Opel and even some sport models sold in the UK are re-badged Holdens from Australia



The BBC is reporting that the union is saying one manufacturing plant in the UK is 'days' from closing down permanently... my moey is on that plant being Vauxhall.

[wedge]

I would never buy a Lexus for example. Luxury Toyota, that's all that is. Yack.

You could say the same thing about the 9-3 - supposedly a luxurious, sportier than its sister Vectra.

[Cooper_S]

The roots of the Lexus brand is indeed Toyota's, which in itself is no bad thing... and early on it is true that the same cars wore both badges depending on the market.

However, Toyota separated the brands a few years back and Lexus is as independent as is possible within an umbrella organisation.

I'd much rather pay the premium and have the superior Lexus

[Thor]

It will be sad to see saab go.

Why I always drive Mercedes Benz ,and you never know where you shall put the switch key in SAAB

[Woodeye]

That is for the most part true, but not a popular thought when expressed in the UK... They assembly most Vauxhalls in the UK but even in Ireand which is a RHD market we drive Opels not Vauxhalls... all product design is from Opel and even some sport models sold in the UK are re-badged Holdens from Australia.

But I mean what's the point really? Everyone in UK must know also that Vauxhall is nothing but Opel. So why all this theatre taken place in the past? Vauxhall is old British brand, but it hasn't produced any own models in ages, right?

[Cooper_S]

Right... and me being Irish I have no affection for the Vauxhall brand... for purely economic reasons the name should have been dropped ages ago...


However you would need the views of a Briton to ask why they resisted the switch

[Daniel]

Right... and me being Irish I have no affection for the Vauxhall brand... for purely economic reasons the name should have been dropped ages ago...


However you would need the views of a Briton to ask why they resisted the switch

Vauxhall is just a badge design. One could argue that if it were just Opel or GM then the operations would still cost the same amount minus the amount it costs to manufacture 2 different kinds of badges.

If you ask an Australian why GM cars there are called Holdens you'll see why Vauxhall still exists and the cars aren't sold as Opels or GM cars.

[Rollo]

However you would need the views of a Briton to ask why they resisted the switch

Resisted?

Do you know something that I don't? Has it ever been mooted to drop the name Vauxhall? If so, can you provide the evidence?


for purely economic reasons the name should have been dropped ages ago...

Do you honestly think that there's an "economic advantage" in changing the decor and fit out of the 606 dealerships in the UK? Is there some sort of advertising economy to be gained?
If this were to happen, GM would have to vacate the use of a brand which has been in place for 106 years.


me being Irish I have no affection for the Vauxhall brand

Of course you don't. Ireland has been fighting against the UK since 1603. It's perfectly natural for the Irish to rag on anything perceived as British.

[Daniel]

Do you honestly think that there's an "economic advantage" in changing the decor and fit out of the 606 dealerships in the UK? Is there some sort of advertising economy to be gained?
If this were to happen, GM would have to vacate the use of a brand which has been in place for 106 years.

Rather. I would hazard a guess that if Vauxhall was dropped and Opels were sold here that sales would drop instantly because there is brand loyalty for Vauxhall because it's British just like there is brand loyalty for Opel in Ireland because it's not British :)

[Cooper_S]

Sorry Rollo, my comments where in no way said in malice, nor meant to be seen as an attack of Britain...

I was replying to comments by another poster... I clearly said that not being British I have no affection for the brand, that is a statement of fact, I don't... but I did say that you would need the views of a Briton to answer why it has remained...

Congratulations... you answered my call... and gave us a Britons viewpoint... and in turn shed a little light on the subject for which I say Thank You.

Your last comment however was I'm afraid well wide of the mark, and all I can say is I was born in the 1960's not the 1660's so I base my opinion of Britain on my own experiences and not because of some stereotypical view...

Not that it should be any of your business as this is just a web forum and you do not need to know me, but can I say that you are very wrong to say that because I am Irish I would "rag on anything perceived as British"

I have lived in the UK now since June 1988, My wife of 15 years (and counting) is English, and my two daughters where both born in the borough of Havering... to rag on Britain would be to rag on my family my friends and my adopted home... I may not sing God save the Queen (maybe hum it a little) but I like this Country, maybe more than some who were born here)

I may have no 'affection' to Vauxhall, but that has absolutely nothing to do with it being British... I love old MG's, Mini's and Jaguars and I love modern Astons with a passion... I'm even hoping to get a Cooper S soon

[Cooper_S]

The BBC is reporting that the union is saying one manufacturing plant in the UK is 'days' from closing down permanently... my money is on that plant being Vauxhall.

Looks like I was right...
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle5780613.ece

[Rollo]

How does being Irish cause you to have a rancor towards Vauxhall then?

[Cooper_S]

Apology accepted... ;)

The only link to my having no 'affection' for Vauxhall (I have no rancor towards the marque) and me being Irish is that it was not Marque I knew growing up.

I have little affection to Ford or Opel for that matter as they where the common everyday cars and in my youth I hankered after the more exotic... I remember clearly been blown away when a neighbour had a Lincoln Continental... most probably the only one in Ireland, and a cousin had a simple BMW 316 (E21) but it might have been an M5 for the impact it had on me as I have been a lifelong BMW fan ever since...

and now I think back, my father had a Vauxhall Firenza (sic) coupe which was a bit special and if I had to pick on Vauxhall I'd love to have owned I'd say the Lotus Carlton.

Anyway sorry for rambling on a bit, hope I answered your query :)