Is this Senna story true?

[Civic]

I don't know if I saw this story here back in 2004 when everyone was talking about Senna's 10th anniversary of his death.



As we approach the 10th anniversary of the death of Ayrton Senna, I thought I would share a moment that still causes me to shake my head to this day.

In 1990 I was in Montreal for the GP, working with a team in one of the supporting events. Our race was scheduled for Saturday afternoon immediately after F1 Qualifying. I rode a 4-wheeler on the access road that runs along the Olympic Rowing Basin beside the track on the way to pit lane, and decided to stop at the final chicane and take in the final minutes of F1 Qualifying.

In those days the final chicane was much more open than today and was extremely fast. I stood up on the handlebars of the four wheeler so I could just barely peek over the top of the catch fencing right at the turn-in point for the chicane. There aren't many places in the F1 world where you can get that close to cars running at top speed.

It's the final few minutes of qualifying, and here come the greatest drivers in the world - Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Senna - and everyone is braking and changing down one gear from top gear right under my nose.

In the final minute, Senna approaches the corner and I hear a slight lift, maybe a bit of left foot braking, but no downchange. He smokes through the chicane and I hear the announcer say he's taken pole by a half second over Prost. After he passes, the checkered flag comes out and he's the last car on the track. Here he comes again, but this time there's no change in engine note at all as he absolutely flies through the chicane completely flat out, taking pole by over a second.

Here are the greatest drivers in the world, and all but one are changing down a gear for the corner. And that one driver manages to streak through that chicane not only without a downshift, but with his amazing foot flat to the floor at something close to 200mph.

Needless to say I was stunned, but totally unprepared for what was to come next. A few minutes later I was walking on the sidewalk behind the F1 pits on the way to the support race grid, and out of the Goodyear tent pops Senna, headed straight for me on the narrow sidewalk.

As we passed, I managed to stammer out a "great lap" comment. Senna stopped, grunted "thanks", then looked at me for a moment as if trying to remember me. A wry smile came over his face and he said the words I will never forget -

"You're the guy looking over the fence."

He grinned, knowing he had just blown my mind, turned and walked off.



I'm wondering if this story is true or some kind of urban legend. If it is true, does anyone know who the story teller is? A young family friend is doing a report on Senna and would like to use this story but can't without a proper source.

[blito]

Great story, but sadly not true.
The final chicane has always been fairly tight, requiring several downshifts to negotiate it succesfully.

[harsha]

i won't comment on whether the story is true or not

but it's a great story nevertheless

[ArrowsFA1]

Not so sure about 'flat out through the chicane' but the part about Senna's awareness of his surroundings rings true. I remember comments about the level of detail with which he could describe each and every lap to his engineers; not just general observations about the car's behaviour but a corner by corner analysis.

I don't think Senna is alone in this. The very best drivers seem to have some extra capacity to take in everything they observe and do, everything the car is doing, analyse it, and react to it, all in split seconds, then recall it in detail.

[PolePosition_1]

I don't think that chicane has changed that much since then, so just can't see how he'd have gone flat out at the end of a 180+mph straight.

Whilst you obviously cannot deny Senna's talent, I do feel that his presence within F1 has been viewed in a totally one sided version, and understandably I guess, he was one of the best of all time, and died doing what he loved and was so great at, it automatically blanks out the 'not so good'.

And this story is a classic viewpoint, in that it gives out the impression the man was a saint, better than the best by a mile.

[Bruce D]

I think that last chichane is tighter than it used to be in say the mid 80's before they moved the pits - I think they made it slightly tighter when the pits moved to there, but still it was a little quicker than today due to the kerbs being positioned differently, the corner is slower now but I doubt he took it flat.

As for his ability to notice and recall things, thats legend definately. I remember a story with, I think, Frank Dernie sharing a flight with Senna at the beginning of '94 and Frank was remembering Senna's first F1 test in a Williams in '84 and Senna could remember all the settings of the car and lap times!

[K-Pu]

Sounds like an urban legend, maintly becuase of the way it is told.

[D-Type]

It may not have happened at that particular location, but the essence of the story is probably true. Certainly all the top drivers seem to have this ability to be uncanilly aware of their surroundings. Denis Jenkinson told a similar story of being in a spectator area at Spa with a driver during practice and another driver who had seen them as he flashed by asking him what they had been chatting about.

To a lesser extent we mere mortals can occasionally experience a similar phenomenon to a lesser degree when we cash a flash of something when driving and rememberthe details: a fox's head, a pretty girl's outfit, etc.

I think your young friend could use the story as there is unlikely to be a copyright issue. If he took out the references to a particular circuit and identifying details there shouldn't be a problem.

[ChrisS]

The facts of the story seem wrong,

If I found my info correctly Saturday qualifying was wet and pretty much irrelevant for pole as much faster times were set on the Friday qualifying session.

Also McLarens were 1-2 at the grid with Senna leading Berger by just 0.066 not over 1 sec

[chuck34]

As many have said, the details of the story may not be right. But the essence is probably there.

I have heard a similar story about AJ Foyt at the Indy Fairgrounds dirt track. I guess there was some reporter down in the infield watching. Foyt recognized him as someone who he didn't particularly like and flipped him the bird. All this while sliding sideways, on dirt, at over 100mph.

I'm sure all the "greats" have some story that goes along the same lines.

[Shifter]

Who was it that later talked to the pretty girl he noticed while negotiating the Monza banking? I tried to google it but no luck.

[shazbot]

I guess it could have been much earlier (mid 80's) when the first corners where a super fast series of bends? I don't think Senna had pole at this circuit when in this configuration. I think he was second on the grid in '85 or '86 to DeAngelis?

[Malbec]

There could be some truth to it. I remember hearing that Senna used to carry on pumping the throttle while downshifting to keep the engine revs up so he wouldn't suffer from turbo lag on exitting the corner. To the casual observer it may have sounded like he was taking the corner flat out.

[Griffon]

Who was it that later talked to the pretty girl he noticed while negotiating the Monza banking? I tried to google it but no luck.

Sterling Moss said in an interview I saw many years ago that he would pick out comely young ladies from the crowd while on the track and later ask them to dinner and other activities.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't know if I saw this story here back in 2004 when everyone was talking about Senna's 10th anniversary of his death.



As we approach the 10th anniversary of the death of Ayrton Senna, I thought I would share a moment that still causes me to shake my head to this day.

In 1990 I was in Montreal for the GP, working with a team in one of the supporting events. Our race was scheduled for Saturday afternoon immediately after F1 Qualifying. I rode a 4-wheeler on the access road that runs along the Olympic Rowing Basin beside the track on the way to pit lane, and decided to stop at the final chicane and take in the final minutes of F1 Qualifying.

In those days the final chicane was much more open than today and was extremely fast. I stood up on the handlebars of the four wheeler so I could just barely peek over the top of the catch fencing right at the turn-in point for the chicane. There aren't many places in the F1 world where you can get that close to cars running at top speed.

It's the final few minutes of qualifying, and here come the greatest drivers in the world - Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Senna - and everyone is braking and changing down one gear from top gear right under my nose.

In the final minute, Senna approaches the corner and I hear a slight lift, maybe a bit of left foot braking, but no downchange. He smokes through the chicane and I hear the announcer say he's taken pole by a half second over Prost. After he passes, the checkered flag comes out and he's the last car on the track. Here he comes again, but this time there's no change in engine note at all as he absolutely flies through the chicane completely flat out, taking pole by over a second.

Here are the greatest drivers in the world, and all but one are changing down a gear for the corner. And that one driver manages to streak through that chicane not only without a downshift, but with his amazing foot flat to the floor at something close to 200mph.

Needless to say I was stunned, but totally unprepared for what was to come next. A few minutes later I was walking on the sidewalk behind the F1 pits on the way to the support race grid, and out of the Goodyear tent pops Senna, headed straight for me on the narrow sidewalk.

As we passed, I managed to stammer out a "great lap" comment. Senna stopped, grunted "thanks", then looked at me for a moment as if trying to remember me. A wry smile came over his face and he said the words I will never forget -

"You're the guy looking over the fence."

He grinned, knowing he had just blown my mind, turned and walked off.



I'm wondering if this story is true or some kind of urban legend. If it is true, does anyone know who the story teller is? A young family friend is doing a report on Senna and would like to use this story but can't without a proper source.

Well, it wasn't me, I swear to that. Maybe it was ioan; yeah!! I reckon it was ioan.

[blito]

Sterling Moss said in an interview I saw many years ago that he would pick out comely young ladies from the crowd while on the track and later ask them to dinner and other activities.

yes, but it simply isnt possble! all things trackside are pretty blurry at high speeds!
what IS possible however is for a driver to SAY these things to out-psyche his opponants!

[Rollo]

If I found my info correctly Saturday qualifying was wet and pretty much irrelevant for pole as much faster times were set on the Friday qualifying session.

Give yourself a goldfish.

I have several problems with the story:

1. The Saturday session was a light drizzle and the race on Sunday was on a damp track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diaDj_u2SpI

2. If Senna was the fourth car in the gravy train behind Prost, Mansell & Piquet, then he would have been following in the spray produced by not one but three cars ahead of him. Under those circumstances, his concentration would have been on entry and exit points to the chicane, not the walls.

3. If it is indeed the "final few minutes of qualifying" then cars were most definitely not going at top speed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Canadian_Grand_Prix
1. Ayrton Senna -McLaren-Honda Q1: 1:20.399 Q2: 1:30.514
The second session was a full ten seconds slower than the first.

4. "but with his amazing foot flat to the floor at something close to 200mph."
Hardly.
Even in 1990 the entry to the chicane at turns 14 & 15 was blind. Nobody and I don't care how brave you are is/was/will ever charge through there at 200mph and especially without changing gears.
Circuit Giles Villeneuve is one of those circuits that has very little play in its layout. Short of tweaking the odd corners, you can't fiddle with it that much.

I call shenanigans on this story.

Shenanigans! :D Shenanigans! :D Shenanigans! :D

[Colin]

Well... unless Senna said, "the guy looking over the fence in turn 11" His statement would have had a 99% chance of being right, as all spectators are 'looking' over some fence.

[markabilly]

Give yourself a goldfish.

I have several problems with the story:

1. The Saturday session was a light drizzle and the race on Sunday was on a damp track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diaDj_u2SpI

2. If Senna was the fourth car in the gravy train behind Prost, Mansell & Piquet, then he would have been following in the spray produced by not one but three cars ahead of him. Under those circumstances, his concentration would have been on entry and exit points to the chicane, not the walls.

3. If it is indeed the "final few minutes of qualifying" then cars were most definitely not going at top speed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Canadian_Grand_Prix
1. Ayrton Senna -McLaren-Honda Q1: 1:20.399 Q2: 1:30.514
The second session was a full ten seconds slower than the first.

4. "but with his amazing foot flat to the floor at something close to 200mph."
Hardly.
Even in 1990 the entry to the chicane at turns 14 & 15 was blind. Nobody and I don't care how brave you are is/was/will ever charge through there at 200mph and especially without changing gears.
Circuit Giles Villeneuve is one of those circuits that has very little play in its layout. Short of tweaking the odd corners, you can't fiddle with it that much.

I call shenanigans on this story.

Shenanigans! :D Shenanigans! :D Shenanigans! :D


okay all ready, please...I am sorry, I got the year wrong and it was only 194 mph!!
Okay you can quote me on the rest, seen with one of my eyes, right after a big shot of kool aide

HAPPY NOW?!?!?!?!?

[ChrisS]

I call shenanigans on this story.

Shenanigans! :D Shenanigans! :D Shenanigans! :D

OK, I better go get my broom

[Civic]

You know, I think I just got the angle on how this story can be used in a school report.

Use Senna as an example of a legend and how stories seem to get better as time goes by, which only adds to a legend's mystique.

Then use verifiable info such as some posted in this thread with regards to track layout, qualifying conditions, etc. to debunk the myth, thereby proving how a person becomes legendary through stories that get embellished and padded with each re-telling. After all, isn't that what a legend is made of?

[Dank Bank]

OK, I better go get my broom

Beaten by a mere two posts....

"Ok people, you heard him! Go home and get your brooms!"

[Rodriguez 917]

I have heard this story before. Maybe it's been contorted over the years and some details added but what I do know is the final chicane at Montreal did used to be very quick (just look at Warwick's crash there in 1988), perhaps the year of 1990 wasn't correct but I do think this did happen. Maybe Senna didn't go through flat but I'm sure he could see people in the crowd. As the Senna myth develops these stories will also develop!

[Rollo]

Maybe Senna didn't go through flat but I'm sure he could see people in the crowd.

People maybe, not individual faces.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czz5quuvkaU&feature=related
Cars aren't travelling significantly faster today than in 1990, even though we might talk about seconds or so.

A car travelling at 100 km/h is doing 27.7777m/s. If you assume that someone has a particularly fat head that is 20cm wide, it means that you have about 0.0072 of a second to find and identify any given person on the side of the track.

Is it possible to make a positive identification of someone you've never seen before and recognise them later based on only a 0.0072s exposure? Considering that incorrect identifications are commonplace in criminal cases, I'd say that you'd probably have a more reliable chance of spontaneously changing into a model of the Kremlin made of baked beans.

[shazbot]

A car travelling at 100 km/h is doing 27.7777m/s. If you assume that someone has a particularly fat head that is 20cm wide, it means that you have about 0.0072 of a second to find and identify any given person on the side of the track.

You could be traveling at 200mph towards the person behind the fence and have plenty of time to recognise them. I've been on track in fairly quick open wheel cars and can confirm that even with my modest ability I've noticed people at the side of the track.

[markabilly]

Cars aren't travelling significantly faster today than in 1990, even though we might talk about seconds or so.

.

You mean the only difference between a car going 100mph in 1990 and going 100mph in 2009 is only about a few seconds or so?

Seems like that is a lot of money to only go a few seconds faster at a 100 mph..... :D

[Easy Drifter]

Speaking from my experience in racing it is surprising to the average person what you can see and recognize at high speed once you are used to high speed. Race drivers also look far further ahead than the average person does and seem to have sharper vision at distances than most.
As an example a friend and I were in the back seat of a car and he was pointing out where his parents' farm was. He said 'Of course you can't see anything but the barn from here.' I promptly described all the buildings to him.
To me they were clear but he couldn't make out anything.

[markabilly]

Speaking from my experience in racing it is surprising to the average person what you can see and recognize at high speed once you are used to high speed. Race drivers also look far further ahead than the average person does and seem to have sharper vision at distances than most.
As an example a friend and I were in the back seat of a car and he was pointing out where his parents' farm was. He said 'Of course you can't see anything but the barn from here.' I promptly described all the buildings to him.
To me they were clear but he couldn't make out anything.


"the zone". When I was in it, everything slowed down, saw all sorts of stuff as though it were slow motion. I knew I was going fast, when I felt i was going slow, saw all sorts of details, such as pavement cracks, people on the side--even to the point of being able to see their eyes and whether they were watching me or someone else--- but when I checked my times, they were faster, very much faster. OTOH, when everything was appearing to be going very fast, no time to catch details, just hanging on......then a check of the times always told me I was going slow, usually real slow....

A number of years ago, I remember a study about taking regular drivers and race drivers and running them through a test where, depending on the signal, they had to stop, go straight or turn into a certain lane. There was little difference in reaction times up to about 60 mph. But when the speeds went up to only 125 mph, the racers did much better.

Why?
The reaction times for the racers did not change that much, and they were successful in responding. But for the regular drivers, they were messing up all over the place and those reaction times skyrocketed as in three times what they were at 60mph.

And they were saying they were trying as hard and fast as possible, but it was impossible to do the manuevers.....when the fact was, if they kept their reaction times the same as at 60 mph, (as did the racers), they would have had no problems........

I watched a motorsport doco this evening and there was a bit about intense focus when drivers get into the so called optimal zone, Dale Earnhardt said he would notice some really interesting things like a coin laying on the racetrack even when driving at 185mph.

[Easy Drifter]

Markabilly's response got me to thinking.
The attitude of the spectators gave me an indication on occasions of trouble on a blind turn. Sure there would be flags but I also would see, without specifically looking at them what the spectators were doing. If they were just looking at something around the corner no big deal. But if people were heading that way, especially running, I subconsiously knew it was a big one.

[markabilly]

I watched a motorsport doco this evening and there was a bit about intense focus when drivers get into the so called optimal zone, Dale Earnhardt said he would notice some really interesting things like a coin laying on the racetrack even when driving at 185mph.
there were times esp on a motorbike, when i would know which side of the coin was face up......problem was that I could not just switich it on and off, and there were times I could never get close to it.
The worst was that it always took several laps before it to really come into play. Not a real problem during practice, but when do you need it most?

At the start of a race--everyone all very close and so forth.

Always thought that is why I would never be in F1......but then I watch the current group start a race for the last few years and think, well i if I were just 19 years old............................

[EuroTroll]

Now, to answer the original quaestion, this Senna story is obviously true.

Although... wasn't it about a race meeting in Australia? Adelaide, it must have been.

Yes...

Of course, Senna could walk on water, couldn't he? And turn water into wine. And turn blind men into seeers.

Well, now.

He wasn't God, was he, but he was a damned good racer. ;)

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I think it's probably a Chinese whisper, it's not improbable to pick someone out of the crown at say Monaco. It probably relates to soemthing like & has been embellished.

[ioan]

Well, it wasn't me, I swear to that. Maybe it was ioan; yeah!! I reckon it was ioan.

Come on man, what are you talking about?!
I would never make up such a poorly documented overly fantasist story.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Senna didn't take the last chicane in Montreal flat even in his dreams. The wall of champions would have gotten him for sure.

As for his eyesight and ability to pick out a face? THAT part I would believe. Dale Earnhardt used to spot all sorts of stuff in testing. It is legendary how once at a track he was testing by himself he pulled over after a few laps, got out, collected a snake and brought it back to the pits to throw at Buddy Baker ( who has a snake phobia ). Now how Earnhardt could see a snake laying in the grass off the back stretch, even at a short track is mind boggling. And this story is true at least to be told by Buddy Baker, who has recounted that story a few times.

Moss used to spot women close to the track in Monaco. Gilles Villeneuve used to also, as well as identify all sorts of things at speed. I think to be a racing driver of extraordinary eyesight and I think the ability to notice many things at speed is a sign of this ability. Many of us can learn this, but I think the truly great racers have it to a degree that would astonish just about anyone....

[woody2goody]

Maybe the fella in the story got his corners mixed up. As I recall from seeing footage of that year, and from playing very old F1 games, there used to be very fast chicanes where the back straight is now. There's a chance he could have been flat out through those even in the wet if he was brave and got lucky.

As far as I remember, as others are saying, the final chicane has always been like it is now.

[V12]

Markabilly's response got me to thinking.
The attitude of the spectators gave me an indication on occasions of trouble on a blind turn. Sure there would be flags but I also would see, without specifically looking at them what the spectators were doing. If they were just looking at something around the corner no big deal. But if people were heading that way, especially running, I subconsiously knew it was a big one.

Wasn't that how Fangio avoided the pile-up that took out practically half the field at Monaco in 1950?

[wedge]

Moss used to spot women close to the track in Monaco. Gilles Villeneuve used to also, as well as identify all sorts of things at speed. I think to be a racing driver of extraordinary eyesight and I think the ability to notice many things at speed is a sign of this ability. Many of us can learn this, but I think the truly great racers have it to a degree that would astonish just about anyone....

I would agree. It's been said many a time that one of the things that separate the great from the good is their extra thinking capacity - because of their natural talent they can drive at 9/10 of their ability without breaking a sweat whereas the good require more concentration on driving close to the limit. So by that logic the top-end drivers can spot something from peripheral vision and not worry about making a mistake.