What if the IRL folds?

[coogmaster]

I would like to illustrate a purely hypothetical situation (which, unfortunately has a possibility of occurring):

Supposedly, Tony George has been quoted as saying that, if the IRL IndyCar Series fails to show profits by 2013, that there will not BE a 2013 and the IRL will fold. (This is according to several posts I've seen on this forum).

In your best prediction, what will happen to the 500?

My guess: Tony will sell the track, and an investor will purchase it and attempt to re-badge the place with his likeness, much like Rickenbacker did back in the day. He would bring a whole new formula to the thing, and now the 500 is a completely independent race without a main series. Whoever wants to purchase this equipment and run the race can. It could be a spec-car built for cost effectiveness, or just a set of simple rules that any manufacturer/entrepreneur/owner/driver(anyone who wants to build a car and start a team) must stay within. All kinds of new faces will appear, from different forms of motorsports. Kind of like what happened in the 30s when the "junk formula" was utilized - and ownership of the speedway changes hands, but the track lives on.

So, in this scenario, the IRL dies, but the Indy 500 lives on, no matter what.

This is just me thinking out of my butt on a boring day at work. What do you folks think?

[Shifter]

My head hurts thinking about it. I will say this; the IRL takes care of current fans pretty well. I say this because they probably moved off ESPN because of constantly being bumped by the LPGA of all things.

However, as a business student, I think the IRL hasn't done enough to attract new fans. The sport finally reunited, and I figured they could make a huge push in terms of promotion, but so far I just don't see it.

[Rex Monaco]

In your best prediction, what will happen to the 500?

It'll be celebrated 50 years from now, as part of the glorious past of open wheeled racing much like the Mille Miglia or La Carrera Panamericana are celebrated today.

But the track will become a shopping mall with the strip of bricks kept as a memorial.

Or maybe not.

[Easy Drifter]

If, and that is a big if, USAC will be in like a dirty shirt.
How successful is a big question but it will be back to the future with the front engined 'Gold Crown' cars.
There, that guess is as good as any.

If you do not know what USAC is and what the proposed Gold Crown cars are you do not follow open wheel racing that closely.

[beachbum]

I would like to illustrate a purely hypothetical situation (which, unfortunately has a possibility of occurring):

Supposedly, Tony George has been quoted as saying that, if the IRL IndyCar Series fails to show profits by 2013, that there will not BE a 2013 and the IRL will fold. (This is according to several posts I've seen on this forum).

In your best prediction, what will happen to the 500?

Ever hear of NASCAR?

While the IRL folding is a possibility, so is F1 folding from escalating costs. The only question is the probability, which is likely very low in each case, but not impossible.

[MDS]

If the IRL Folds there will be two NASCAR races at Indy instead of one.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If the IRL folds (highly unlikely) then some other investors will jump in and try to make it work in a fashion similar to what we have seen. What is more, it is BAD for racing as a whole if the IRL folds and THAT my friends would likely keep NASCAR interested in helping out someone trying to buy the Speedway and keep Indycars alive. If the IRL goes away, the NASCAR juggernaut starts to smell like a monopoly and THAT in today's business climate isn't really that good an idea.

[indycool]

I think too much has been made of TG's throwaway statement.

[Wilf]

I think too much has been made of TG's throwaway statement.

I don't think it was a throwaway or something else would have been said by now. But it wasn't a line drawn in the sand either. Sooner or later it has to turn into a profitable business and he wants everyone, current and future partners, to know where he intends to be in four years. I believe he made the comment before the meltdown was known and that might call for an adjustment.

The way Washington is throwing money around maybe it could be the US IRL. $40 mil would get TG to 2014 easy. It certainly has as much merit and Dirty Harry's railroad to Vegas.

[downtowndeco]

I'm just throwing numbers out there but If he loses 15 million a year on the IRL but makes 50 million each year on the Indy 500 he'll keep the IRL running forever.


I don't think it was a throwaway or something else would have been said by now. But it wasn't a line drawn in the sand either. Sooner or later it has to turn into a profitable business and he wants everyone, current and future partners, to know where he intends to be in four years. I believe he made the comment before the meltdown was known and that might call for an adjustment.

The way Washington is throwing money around maybe it could be the US IRL. $40 mil would get TG to 2014 easy. It certainly has as much merit and Dirty Harry's railroad to Vegas.

[SarahFan]

I'm just throwing numbers out there but If he loses 15 million a year on the IRL but makes 50 million each year on the Indy 500 he'll keep the IRL running forever.


of coarse that is only your opinion... and flies in directly in the face of what Tony himself said......

but don't let reality get in the way

[indycool]

Regardless of the naysayers, there seems to be little doubt that the IRL isn't going to continue to happen.

[SarahFan]

Regardless of the naysayers, there seems to be little doubt that the IRL isn't going to continue to happen.

has nothing to do with being a supporter or naysayer.....and everything to do with a direct quote from Tony...

if you choose to dismiss it as a a throwaway feel free

[SarahFan]

IMO

the IRL isn't going to close up shop and completely cease to exist leaving no AOWR series to run the 500...

but at some point in a losing venture, even one supported by a 'parent' company (IMS), things need to change

the IRL was headed in the direction of change before the recession....

I expect sometime in the next 5 years the IRL will take on a similar structure to the CART owner/franchise system

and the cycle will have come full circle...

again.... just my opinion

[The instant classic]

What if the IRL folds?
beside the lost of the indy 500,, witch wolud be weird, i do think it wolud just fall between the cracks like champcar did, and i really hate to say that,

[indycool]

I suppose we'll hear four years of "Tony said it" from you here.

[SarahFan]

I suppose we'll hear four years of "Tony said it" from you here.

and you will pretend he didn't mean it

[anthonyvop]

If you do not know what USAC is and what the proposed Gold Crown cars are you do not follow open wheel racing that closely.

I know what USAC is and the proposed Gold Crown cars are but really don't care.

I am not an "Open Wheel" racing fan.

I follow formula car racing passionately!!!!

[speeddurango]

There will be an Indy 500 even if TG's company goes bankcrupt, then the buyer will form a new series with possibly some of the current team bosses, and some years later they will split again.

[Wilf]

IMO

the IRL isn't going to close up shop and completely cease to exist leaving no AOWR series to run the 500...

but at some point in a losing venture, even one supported by a 'parent' company (IMS), things need to change

the IRL was headed in the direction of change before the recession....

I expect sometime in the next 5 years the IRL will take on a similar structure to the CART owner/franchise system

and the cycle will have come full circle...

again.... just my opinion

I'm not sure if Dan Gurney would admit it, but the results of the white paper didn't work for him or any of the other team owners. I can't see how a series can succeed for the long haul when the owners make and administer the rules. It takes a dictator.

[nigelred5]

I see it continung as more of an invitational race with a broader standard of eligibility. It's not like LeMans ever really has much of a series suporting it and it has managed for quite a long time. The 500 will survive.

[Rex Monaco]

I see it continung as more of an invitational race with a broader standard of eligibility.

If they'd only do that now, it would also breathe life into the series.

[coogmaster]

Just like during the Great Depression, the 500 had to figure out how to survive, and it did. As long as butts are in those seats each May, there will be a demand for the 500. Without a series to support it, it will be more difficult but the demand will still be there. History tends to repeat itself.

[DBell]

It's not like LeMans ever really has much of a series suporting it and it has managed for quite a long time. The 500 will survive.


I would argue that Indy doesn't have much of a series supporting it, not in the context of TV ratings and average attendance of races outside of Indy and sponsors willing to spend money. So one could say that surviving is what the 500 is doing right now.

[SarahFan]

I'm not sure if Dan Gurney would admit it, but the results of the white paper didn't work for him or any of the other team owners. I can't see how a series can succeed for the long haul when the owners make and administer the rules. It takes a dictator.

hmmm..

who owns the NFL?

and what about the USGA?

[call_me_andrew]

I see six distinct posible outcomes to the IRL folding. Frankly, I'd hope for either 3 or 4.

1. The Indy 500 becomes a "run what you brung" event not affiliated with any series.
2. The 500 is taken over by NASCAR and becomes a Sprint Cup Series race.
3. The 500 is taken over by the FIA and becomes a Formula One race (again).
4. The 500 is taken over by USAC and becomes a Gold Crown Series race.
5. The 500 is taken over by HERF and Peter M. De Lorenzo is hailed as a genius.
6. The 500 becomes a thing of the past and in 100 years, only a handful of historians are aware it existed.

[coogmaster]

I see six distinct posible outcomes to the IRL folding. Frankly, I'd hope for either 3 or 4.

1. The Indy 500 becomes a "run what you brung" event not affiliated with any series.
2. The 500 is taken over by NASCAR and becomes a Sprint Cup Series race.
3. The 500 is taken over by the FIA and becomes a Formula One race (again).
4. The 500 is taken over by USAC and becomes a Gold Crown Series race.
5. The 500 is taken over by HERF and Peter M. De Lorenzo is hailed as a genius.
6. The 500 becomes a thing of the past and in 100 years, only a handful of historians are aware it existed.

1 has the possibility of being great, if managed properly.

Lord hopes that 2 and 3 won't happen.

I wouldn't mind 4... a true digression to the roots of IndyCar racing.

I lay in my bed and pray 6 won't happen

[V12]

1 would be great - with the possibility of a new series growing around the same concept when economic conditions allow.

[indycool]

The grapes are pretty sour on this thread.

[mike15]

Who would notice besides speed TV and Dave Dispain?

Oh I forgot those I500 fans would want to know if they still should hold on to their tickets

[downtowndeco]

The grapes are pretty sour on this thread.

Well you know, certain "fans" have a lot invested in seeing the IRL fold. They backed the wrong horse. They told everyone that would listen that CC had a far superior product, deeper pockets, a much better management team, many, many more fans than the IRL and that, oh yeah, TG is an idiot.

To admit they were wrong on all or most points is to admit they have wasted many years of their lives to no end. They were wrong. They need the IRL to fail so they can feel vindicated. Damn AOW. They need to be right no matter what the cost.

[Claus Hansen]

What is this about folding... I personally never like the IRL, am an CC fan, and followed the series, because the cars where great, and i liked many of the drivers ! We got and merger now, i still dont like IRL, but i stil keep and eye out for some of drivers ! Do i like to see the IRL fold, NEVER, so if you dont like what you see, go somewhere else, please !

[Easy Drifter]

I was a CART/CC fan and certainly did not like TG.
However that is now past history and what we have is the best we are going to have so let us support it.
I can also understand why IRL are sticking with the current car and rules right now. Same with not replacing lost races, although I sure would have liked to see Mtl.
It is called a terrible economy! The expense of new cars or major rule changes is not needed. Most teams are probably happy with a couple of less races in this climate.
The TV contract is questionable but we will get TSN in Canada which is better than Score.
Just to put Motor Racing in perspective here, last Sunday TSN broke away from coverage of NASCAR Sprint Cup with just a few laps to go cover the final of the Tournament of Hearts Womens Curling! It was still early in the curling match. NASCAR is very popular in Canada. TSN told people to switch to Fox!
Where I feel IRL is really dropping the ball is in PR work and lack of press releases. They are leaving it mostly up to the teams or the promoters.
If by any chance IRL folds, which I doubt, I expect USAC would jump in or NASCAR would start an open wheel series. I have given the latter idea some thought and I can see the logic in NASCAR stepping in. They then could be the main player and keep open wheel very subordinate to their main series. Let's face it they own Grand Am and would love to put ALMS out of business.
Continuing hatred of TG and IRL is just silly when it is all we have.

[vintage]

"Do i like to see the IRL fold, NEVER, so if you dont like what you see, go somewhere else, please !"

:up:

+1 - I was also a Champ Car fan, but the combined series is more challenging, better diversity, and once they add Cleveland back, an excellent variety of tracks. And while I'm not a great fan of the Dallara, it actually looks pretty good in road course trim.

[SarahFan]

The grapes are pretty sour on this thread.



Really?.....could you be specific

sure the topic is touchy for you sure

but posts have bben resonable

can you point outa specific 'sour grapes' post

[garyshell]

Well you know, certain "fans" have a lot invested in seeing the IRL fold. They backed the wrong horse. They told everyone that would listen that CC had a far superior product, deeper pockets, a much better management team, many, many more fans than the IRL and that, oh yeah, TG is an idiot.

To admit they were wrong on all or most points is to admit they have wasted many years of their lives to no end. They were wrong. They need the IRL to fail so they can feel vindicated. Damn AOW. They need to be right no matter what the cost.


Really?.....could you be specific

sure the topic is touchy for you sure

but posts have bben resonable

can you point outa specific 'sour grapes' post

I'd say the one above pretty much depicts that.

Gary

[Cart750hp]

If the IRL folds (highly unlikely) then some other investors will jump in and try to make it work in a fashion similar to what we have seen.

I totally agree. Someone will still try to revive the series or at least start from scratch. Yeah, more of three amigos but this time, most likely only two amigos.


What is more, it is BAD for racing as a whole if the IRL folds and THAT my friends would likely keep NASCAR interested in helping out someone trying to buy the Speedway and keep Indycars alive. If the IRL goes away, the NASCAR juggernaut starts to smell like a monopoly and THAT in today's business climate isn't really that good an idea.

Whatever happens, if NASCAR comes to Fontana every year, people on the west side of the 57 fwy still not interested. I live in SouthBay and don't know anyone who's gone to AutoClub 500 for the past 5 years I've lived here. Sad but, who cares.

[SarahFan]

I'd say the one above pretty much depicts that.

Gary

not so sure about sour grapes' .... But totally irrelevant to the subject and subsequent discussion for certain

[Rex Monaco]

The Atlantics thread gave me a thought. If the IRL folds, then IMSA would likely be in the running to pick it up.

[Bob Riebe]

IF the IRL goes belly-up, which would not be a bad thing; the Indianapolis 500 would survive by what ever means necessary but it would continue.

[downtowndeco]

IF the IRL goes belly-up, which would not be a bad thing

Thanks for the support. BTW. Why do you post here? : )

[methanolHuffer]

Something like a run 'what you brung' was mentioned, and I'd be interested in something like a BOSS series regulated and not a CAN-AM free for all.

Probably would have a mixture of Marty Roths and hire guns by people that can still afford to blow money.

I know one thing, IMS will be covered in weeds before it leaves the family ownership. Just don't let CIB get involved under any circumstance.

[Bob Riebe]

Thanks for the support. BTW. Why do you post here? : )
For the same reason you do.

[downtowndeco]

Really? You are a fan of the IRL yet you'd like to see them fold? : ). OK. Whatever you say.


For the same reason you do.

[wbcobrar]

I think IRL's future , though bleak , should survive . If the economy is still in the gutter in 2013 motorsports will be the least of even the rabid fans who contribute to and read this forum's concerns . The thrust of this thread , however , has me pondering the worst , and IRL's demise may accually be a ok sanerio . Open wheel racing has an ace up its sleeve , and that is the Indy 500 . Should the series proper die , this race will survive, and become the phoenix from which a new and possibly more vibrent series would arrise . I love the "run what ya' brung " idea . Through this maddness the possibilty of an american (or new international ) open wheel series that rivals , or even surpasses F1 in terms of popularity and technical innovation could begin . Some one dissed the Can-Am series , which I totally don't understand . These cars set a standard for performance with dinasaur technology that in many respects parralels modern LeMans standards .( I encourage any of you to attend a vintage race that features these glorious machines they are simply fantastic .) Immagine a return to the days when new and fantastic cars pushed the onvelope of what is possible . Spec cars and parrity can lend itself to great racing , but kady-bar-the-door performance levels creates a freak show that echos through the ages .

[Rex Monaco]

Really? You are a fan of the IRL yet you'd like to see them fold? : ). OK. Whatever you say.

Why can't someone be a real racing fan without being an IRL fanboy like you?

[Bob Riebe]

Really? You are a fan of the IRL yet you'd like to see them fold? : ). OK. Whatever you say.
I am a fan of the Indianapolis 500, the only track left I care about, and the only one it would bother me if the race stopped running.

[markabilly]

IF the IRL goes belly-up, which would not be a bad thing; the Indianapolis 500 would survive by what ever means necessary but it would continue.


Yeah, they could always run midgets or go-karts.....or midgets in go-Karts

Or Danica nude in a go Kart sans helmet (not to worry, a head injury might damage the face a litttle, but nothing else), but it would quarantee that the greatest spectalcalee in racing is still the greatest spectalcalee in racing



:vader:

[SarahFan]

reality is the split has created a scenerio where one can be a fan of the drivers, teams and the racing.... yet understand that the leadership is woefully inept and incapable of leading the sport

[Rex Monaco]

reality is the split has created a scenerio where one can be a fan of the drivers, teams and the racing.... yet understand that the leadership is woefully inept and incapable of leading the sport

Yep, it's very easy to be an OW fan without being a TG fanboy.

[markabilly]

reality is the split has created a scenerio where one can be a fan of the drivers, teams and the racing.... yet understand that the leadership is woefully inept and incapable of leading the sport
reality is that there is not real reason to be a fan of these drivers, teams and racing------especially the racing

When the IRL folds , dragging INdy with it, it will hardly be missed

[indycool]

Well, here in Indy, teams are testing and working and getting ready for a season, including Indy. YMMV in your interest, varying degrees of hatred toward TG and location.

[garyshell]

reality is that there is not real reason to be a fan of these drivers, teams and racing------especially the racing

When the IRL folds , dragging INdy with it, it will hardly be missed


Then why on earth are you here? If you hate Indy, the drivers, the teams, the owners and the IRL so much, what purpose are you serving here other than to pee in other folks wheaties?

There are several other folks here that dislike one or more of the above, but remain because there is at least ONE of those elements they like. And you???

Gary

[SarahFan]

Well, here in Indy, teams are testing and working and getting ready for a season, including Indy. YMMV in your interest, varying degrees of hatred toward TG and location.



Are you suggesting that questioning the direction of the sport and the leaders charged with its success or failureis unwarranted?

Or should be off limits?

[Rex Monaco]

Are you suggesting that questioning the direction of the sport and the leaders charged with its success or failureis unwarranted?

Or should be off limits?

Ken, you mean you are not a TG fanboy? ;)

[SarahFan]

Ken, you mean you are not a TG fanboy? ;)

for all i know tony is probably a nice enough guy....

ttp://www.visionracing.com/

but look no further than vision racing....St pete is less than a month away and they are still hoping 2008 is going to be a great season...

racing is about winning and he put 2 drivers in the car with absolutly no chance at a championship..... and with his resources that sends a clear cut message IMO...

he isn't even serios about racing.... much less an entire series

[Rex Monaco]

but look no further than vision racing....St pete is less than a month away and they are still hoping 2008 is going to be a great season...

Sure their front page hasn't been updated in over a year, but they added Twitter and Facebook last month! Doesn't that show something more than "I saw these on CNN and we should look into doing this since they are free"?

[downtowndeco]

This seems to have petered out into two guys who don't like TG agreeing with each other.

[SarahFan]

This seems to have petered out into two guys who don't like TG agreeing with each other.

more acurately two guys who don't think he is doing a good job heading the direction of the IRL...both of which have given valid reasons to support thier claim(s)....

[F1boat]

But there is no alternative. The alternative met a bitter end. Now there is only the IRL in that style of open wheel racing. So it is better to be positive.

[Rex Monaco]

But there is no alternative. The alternative met a bitter end. Now there is only the IRL in that style of open wheel racing. So it is better to be positive.

I'd never blindly follow anyone and I'm positive about that.

[Rex Monaco]

This seems to have petered out into two guys who don't like TG agreeing with each other.

I guess the ***** are now embarrassed to express their undying devotion to him in public. I can't blame them. It's near impossible to blame anyone else for the current state of the sport.

[Wilf]

I guess the ***** are now embarrassed to express their undying devotion to him in public. I can't blame them. It's near impossible to blame anyone else for the current state of the sport.

These ugly personal attacks are ridiculous. I would like to suggest that you and Ken each create a list of the 10, 20, 50, etc. things that TG has done wrong. I'm sure the moderators would let you put them in as stickies and then, when you disagree with someone's post you could just post a number and we would know how you think it applies.

[Rex Monaco]

These ugly personal attacks are ridiculous.

I didn't attack anyone personally. I left it to each person to decide for themselves if they are a ***** or not. I'm not.

[indycool]

Oh.

[Bob Riebe]

But there is no alternative. The alternative met a bitter end. Now there is only the IRL in that style of open wheel racing. So it is better to be positive.
OH yes, the attitude that politicians thrive on-- sorry folks, we are out of chocolate fudge, all we have left is butt fudge, you will like, or learn to.

[Rex Monaco]

I guess the ***** are now embarrassed to express their undying devotion to him in public. I can't blame them. It's near impossible to blame anyone else for the current state of the sport.

I really have to laugh at the ******s who reported me for using this word and subsequently getting it banned from this forum.

While the word might be gone, you've only helped to reinforce the idea behind the word. And ideas cannot be banned.

[Rex Monaco]

I would like to suggest that you and Ken each create a list of the 10, 20, 50, etc. things that TG has done wrong.

And it'd be easier if you wrote the 2 things that he did right and placed it in your signature.

[vintage]

Let me take a shot at it - here are 3

1 - He outlasted all the brilliant people who ran Champ Car

2 - He gave the CC teams an incentive to continue to compete in the "unified" series in 2008, therefore making it so this is the second year for the ex champ car teams, as most of them probably couldn't have answered the bell without the free chassis and support money.

3 - He has accepted that a combination of road/street/oval races was acceptable and better for all

[Rex Monaco]

Let me take a shot at it - here are 3

1 - He outlasted all the brilliant people who ran Champ Car

2 - He gave the CC teams an incentive to continue to compete in the "unified" series in 2008, therefore making it so this is the second year for the ex champ car teams, as most of them probably couldn't have answered the bell without the free chassis and support money.

3 - He has accepted that a combination of road/street/oval races was acceptable and better for all

In that vain:

4. He listened to Honda's threats and made unification a priority, when it had never been one before.

[Bob Riebe]

Let me take a shot at it - here are 3

1 - He outlasted all the brilliant people who ran Champ Car--Not hard he owned the Brick Yard

2 - He gave the CC teams an incentive to continue to compete in the "unified" series in 2008, therefore making it so this is the second year for the ex champ car teams, as most of them probably couldn't have answered the bell without the free chassis and support money--Where else would they go. If they were that weak let them go; a series is only as good ad the weakest link.

3 - He has accepted that a combination of road/street/oval races was acceptable and better for all--He never was against road races; when he first started he said they might be in, in the future.

``
Only the last one shows any true competence from the start.

[SarahFan]

Oh.


I'd appreciate it if you went back and answered my question from post #33...

[downtowndeco]

Very nicely put Wilf. I don't think some of these guy realize how incredibly redundant and boring some of their posts in these threads are. It's basically the same thing over and over and over again. "TG bad/CC good". "The IRL will fail" "TG is an idiot" "For the 50th time let me rehash the mistake TG made 13 years ago" Etc etc etc.

OK. we get it. When the IRL folds I'll be the first to say "You were right!" For now though give it a rest already. : )


These ugly personal attacks are ridiculous. I would like to suggest that you and Ken each create a list of the 10, 20, 50, etc. things that TG has done wrong. I'm sure the moderators would let you put them in as stickies and then, when you disagree with someone's post you could just post a number and we would know how you think it applies.

[SarahFan]

These ugly personal attacks are ridiculous. I would like to suggest that you and Ken each create a list of the 10, 20, 50, etc. things that TG has done wrong. I'm sure the moderators would let you put them in as stickies and then, when you disagree with someone's post you could just post a number and we would know how you think it applies.

about 5 or 6 years ago I got in a huge argument with a friend of a friend over our then current Mayor...

I made the statement that I wasn't a big a fan of our mayor becuase in the end i felt he gave a lot of lip service to hot button topics... but in the end he hadn't done anything at all, good or bad, to change the landscape of our city...

she demanded i support my claim.....

i said.... my claim is exactly what i said... he hasn't done anything, good or bad, to change the landscape of our city

she simply couldn't understand... her whole argument was i needed to prove my statement....

it was all pretty simple... all she had to do was list all things he had done/accomplished/changed.......she couldn't



I feel the same way about Tony....

[SarahFan]

Very nicely put Wilf. I don't think some of these guy realize how incredibly redundant and boring some of their posts in these threads are. It's basically the same thing over and over and over again. "TG bad/CC good". "The IRL will fail" "TG is an idiot" "For the 50th time let me rehash the mistake TG made 13 years ago" Etc etc etc.

OK. we get it. When the IRL folds I'll be the first to say "You were right!" For now though give it a rest already. : )

problem is none of us... certainly not I have said any such thing....

[downtowndeco]

Every once in a while I need to update my ignore list. It's nothing personal. It's just that I feel like I'm beating my head on the wall with some of you people. : ). I'm sure many feel the same way with me as well. : )

"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list."

[SarahFan]

Every once in a while I need to update my ignore list. It's nothing personal. It's just that I feel like I'm beating my head on the wall with some of you people. : ). I'm sure many feel the same way with me as well. : )

"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list."



like any of believe for a second you have us on ignore

[garyshell]

I really have to laugh at the ******s who reported me for using this word and subsequently getting it banned from this forum.

While the word might be gone, you've only helped to reinforce the idea behind the word. And ideas cannot be banned.


WHAT???!!!??? The word *****is being banned, here. I am sorry that is just a tad bit too PC, for me. I wish to formally protest this decison in the strongest possible terms. That is just plain ridiculous.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

WHAT???!!!??? The word ***** is being banned, here. I am sorry that is just a tad bit too PC, for me. I wish to formally protest this decison in the strongest possible terms. That is just plain ridiculous.

Gary

Incredible, isn't it? Evidently some of the TG ******s object to being known as someone who is "devoted to TG in an emotional or fanatical manner".

And yet their posts show this to be a completely appropriate term that defines their undying, unquestioning devotion.

But who can blame them for not liking it. I'd be embarrassed to be known as a TG ****** too. Personally, I'd rather be called a Danica ****** before you called me a TG ******.

But they can ban words. Because it's their own words that show them to be emotional TG fanantics, not mine.

[Rex Monaco]

It's just that I feel like I'm beating my head on the wall with some of you people.

If you actually posted responses, this statement would have more credibility.

But replying "me too" in response to someone elses post that you argee with is not very hard to do. If that tires you out, then it is best that you not try to engage people directly and you should keep them on ignore.

[Rex Monaco]

problem is none of us... certainly not I have said any such thing....

A similar persecution complex can also be found in many cults. Not that TG is a cult leader or these devoted followers are cult members. There is just some similarities in their behaviour, that's all.

[F1boat]

Why don't you go to CCF to mourn your dead series and leave IRL fans alone?

[indycool]

Starter, go ahead and close it. There isn't anything here we haven't heard before. To some, enjoying a race at Indy or Iowa or Kansas is being a TG loyalist, not a race fan....heard it all many times before.

[Rex Monaco]

The grapes are pretty sour on this thread.

This is when the discussion turned.

And on second thought, this was the first commentary about the people posting in this thread.

[downtowndeco]

The reason I don't spend much energy posting on threads like these is because the very question, the thread title, is loaded from the get go. It's like asking someone "If you had to hit your wife would you hit her in the head or in the stomach?" There's no way a sane person can answer such a question. That's the way I feel about threads like these. There is nothing a rational poster can add to a thread like this that is going to lead to any sort of intelligent dialog. It's a baited question.

Like someone said, just start a thread that lists all of TG/The IRL's faults and sins and put a sticky on it. Visit it when ever you feel the need to reassure yourself that TG is an idiot. In the meantime please don't expect IRL fans on an IRL board to be terribly enthusiastic about these types of threads.




If you actually posted responses, this statement would have more credibility.

But replying "me too" in response to someone elses post that you argee with is not very hard to do. If that tires you out, then it is best that you not try to engage people directly and you should keep them on ignore.

[Rex Monaco]

Well you know, certain "fans" have a lot invested in seeing the IRL fold. They backed the wrong horse. They told everyone that would listen that CC had a far superior product, deeper pockets, a much better management team, many, many more fans than the IRL and that, oh yeah, TG is an idiot.

To admit they were wrong on all or most points is to admit they have wasted many years of their lives to no end. They were wrong. They need the IRL to fail so they can feel vindicated. Damn AOW. They need to be right no matter what the cost.

And this is when fans started being called out, instead of discussing the topic.

[Rex Monaco]

In the meantime please don't expect IRL fans on an IRL board to be terribly enthusiastic about these types of threads.

If you cannot find the energy to enthusiastically tell people why the IRL will not fail in a thread like this, then stay out of it and stop using it as an excuse to call people names. You don't need an ignore button to ignore threads. It's called self control.

And you can always post a thread on how TG saved AOWR racing and list all the really wonderful and brilliant things that he did.

[Rex Monaco]

Starter, go ahead and close it. There isn't anything here we haven't heard before. To some, enjoying a race at Indy or Iowa or Kansas is being a TG loyalist, not a race fan....heard it all many times before.

This sounds like sour grapes to me.

[SarahFan]

Once again, if some of you can't start talking about the racing series, good or bad, and stop talking about other posters, this thread will be closed.

Have the common courtesy to respect that others may have opinions that differ from yours. No one here is in a position to say with authority who is right - or even if anyone is.


perhaps you could be more specific..... because it's clear a few posters don't want the subject broached....

let's not forget....heres the exchange

Tony George at the SportsBusiness Daily/SportsBusiness Journal Motorsports Marketing Forum at the Westin at Times Square on Dec. 3, 2008

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.

no one is making anything up here.... it happened, it WAS said...



it's too bad a few posters want to diminish legitimate discussion...


seems simple.... if your not interested in a discussion don't click on the thread more than once...

[SarahFan]

Why don't you go to CCF to mourn your dead series and leave IRL fans alone?


what does this have to do with CC?

why even bring it up?

[Rex Monaco]

Once again, if some of you can't start talking about the racing series, good or bad, and stop talking about other posters, this thread will be closed.

Have the common courtesy to respect that others may have opinions that differ from yours. No one here is in a position to say with authority who is right - or even if anyone is.

Thank you. Everyone should live by these rules and not just single out a few of us. That would be hypocritical. And we wouldn't want anyone here to think that some people are hypocrits.

[Rex Monaco]

Tony George at the SportsBusiness Daily/SportsBusiness Journal Motorsports Marketing Forum at the Westin at Times Square on Dec. 3, 2008

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.

And it's this type of comment, that leaves little faith in me that TG i equiped to lead this series.

Let's say I'm a company thinking about a 5 year contract to be the title sponsor for the IRL. And just as I'm about to make that phone call, TG says there is 4 years left before he decides to pull the plug. Do I take that risk during this economy on something that might go out of business?

And if I don't, who is to blame for this?

[Rex Monaco]

In that vain:

4. He listened to Honda's threats and made unification a priority, when it had never been one before.

Really? 4 is all we have? Honestly, I thought the fans of TG would be able to find more.

[downtowndeco]

You're right. I've been wasting my time trying to reason with you. My fault, excuse me. Just so I don't make that mistake again I've updated my "ignore" list. Cheers!


If you cannot find the energy to enthusiastically tell people why the IRL will not fail in a thread like this, then stay out of it and stop using it as an excuse to call people names. You don't need an ignore button to ignore threads. It's called self control.

And you can always post a thread on how TG saved AOWR racing and list all the really wonderful and brilliant things that he did.

[SarahFan]

Starter, go ahead and close it. There isn't anything here we haven't heard before. To some, enjoying a race at Indy or Iowa or Kansas is being a TG loyalist, not a race fan....heard it all many times before.

for 8 years you primarily discussed the politics and biz surrounding CC.... and now that's it's gone you spend the mojority of your posts not discussing the racing at indy and Iowa.... but putting a kabosh on identical discussion of the IRL...


so to the subject........what do think about Tony's comments regarding the future of the IRL?

do you expect the IRL to be profitable by 2013?

[Rex Monaco]

You're right. I've been wasting my time trying to reason with you. My fault, excuse me. Just so I don't make that mistake again I've updated my "ignore" list. Cheers!

If I gave a dollar to TG every time you've placed me on your ignore list, the IRL would be funded for the next decade. Let's just hope for your sake that TG doesn't fold as easily as you.

[indycool]

I expect Tony's comments to be a throwaway answer to a throwaway question that's being bored in on by naysayers. What's going to happen to your restaurants in 2013, pro or con? How could anyone know?

Judging by today's economy, I have no idea what will be profitable by 2013.

[SarahFan]

I expect Tony's comments to be a throwaway answer to a throwaway question that's being bored in on by naysayers. What's going to happen to your restaurants in 2013, pro or con? How could anyone know?

Judging by today's economy, I have no idea what will be profitable by 2013.

I know exactly what I'm going to do as the economy ebbs and flows.....that's part of being an effective owner.... it's one of the reasons both my restaurants remain profitable....


this is a specific question to a specific quote...

what do you expect Tony will be doing differently over the next 4 years to make the IRL profitable?

[SarahFan]

I expect Tony's comments to be a throwaway answer to a throwaway question .

can you expand on that.... exactly what, besides the fact it sits better with you and/or you desperately want/need it to be, makes it throwaway?

seemed/sounded direct and too the point IMO

[Rex Monaco]

I expect Tony's comments to be a throwaway answer to a throwaway question that's being bored in on by naysayers. What's going to happen to your restaurants in 2013, pro or con? How could anyone know?

Judging by today's economy, I have no idea what will be profitable by 2013.

If I had a restaraunt that needed investors in order for it to stay afloat, you can be assured that my public comments would be positive in nature.

A top of the ladder business leader would have said something like, "Everybody is experiencing difficulties right now. But we are fully prepared to weather this economic storm and we expect to be profitable before 2013 even without a title sponsor."

Unfortunately, the only thing this 'throw away' comment likely accomplished was to 'throw away' market confidence during the search for a needed title sponsor.

Only a yeasayer would think this was not bad for the series.

[Rex Monaco]

However, for the person who is the leader, decision maker and public face of an organization to make that kind of statement to the press - even in jest - is very poor judgement at best and gross incompetetence at worst. Not what you want from your leader.

And certainly not when so many people already expect him to stumble.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think what this thread should be titled is: Do you believe that the IRL will be around in 4 years and if so, who will be leading it? You could also ask the question do you have faith in the current leadership of the IRL? This thread right now reads almost like a trial of Tony George. The arguements pro and con have all had merit and I can honestly say that I would have a lot more faith and good will towards the IRL and its future if the leadership wasn't so quiet and uncertain. The only real feeling or vibe I am getting right now is that the IRL has the dough to survive, will be back in Toronto this summer, has a few name drivers................and where is the promotion? Where is the excitement? Where is the hype and pushing of all that is Indy car racing? The media is ignoring this series because there is no press releases of serious announcments. There just seems to be a malaise around this series and it is bothering me.

I have no doubt the IRL will survive in some form, but I am not a big fan of this passive riding out the economic storm that Tony seems to be on. Again, one of the most legitimate criticisms many rational people have (not ones with a Champ Car axe to grind ) is that Tony seemed to care more for IMS and the 500 than the rest of the series. THAT is I think the crux of the backlash against this guy still. Until I see him on screen on SPEED, on ESPN on TSN here in Canada promoting the hell out of his series, I wont feel comfortable about his message because I am never sure what it is.

You want to see what kind of promotion he should be doing? Look no further than the UFC and how their president is on every form of media pushing the MMA that is branded as UFC. THAT is how you promote....and the IRL needs something leadership like what Dana White is doing for the UFC. I think it is a boring and crude sport, but I cannot deny that I know more about what is going on with that sport because they are pushing their way through the media and making sure people pay attention to their promotions. I could have a nap waiting for the IRL.....

[Rex Monaco]

I could have a nap waiting for the IRL.....

Rumpelstiltskin could have a nap waiting for the IRL! :D

[call_me_andrew]

Let's take this thread in a slightly lower profile direction.

If the IRL folds, what becomes of the Long Beach Grand Prix?

A. F1
B. NASCAR
C. USAC
D. ALMS
E. Obscurity

[Bob Riebe]

If the IRL folds, what becomes of the Long Beach Grand Prix?

A. F1-- Only if Obama sends bailout money there for it.

B. NASCAR-- It would be an embarassment to anyone involved.

C. USAC-- I would love to see Silver Crown or Sprint Cars run there. Heck sprint cars ran at Riverside fifty years ago.

D. ALMS-- NO

E. Obscurity-- Probably

[SarahFan]

Doesn't the ALMS alreadyu co-headline Long beach?

[Bob Riebe]

Doesn't the ALMS alreadyu co-headline Long beach?
It is there, co-headline does not exist. (although I think the sports cars pull more people than the open wheel cars where they run together.)
I doubt that the IMSA can afford to go it alone.
With twenty car fields predicted in the IMSA at most races after Sebring, it would be a rather boring parade.

[Rex Monaco]

Why is oval racing relegated to NASCAR and Indycar? Why isn't there a 'sportscar' formula racing on ovals?

In the April 2009 issue of Car and Driver, there is a Peter Brock design for a modern Can-Am car that essentially is an open cockpit car with an open wheeled type car in front with a beefier wing and a fully enclosed rear (rear wheels are hidden) and a small wing.

I'd think a design similar to this would be more suited for oval racing. The front wing could double as a bumper of sorts and the rear wheels are protected to prevent cars from being launched into the air when front and rears touch.

Imagine if a car like this were also eligble for ALMS and thus Le Mans. Then you'd attract auto makers looking to be the first to win Sebring, Le Mans and Indy in the same year.

Just a thought, in case IMSA is the sole survivor should the IRL continue it's failure to lead.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why is oval racing relegated to NASCAR and Indycar? Why isn't there a 'sportscar' formula racing on ovals?

In the April 2009 issue of Car and Driver, there is a Peter Brock design for a modern Can-Am car that essentially is an open cockpit car with an open wheeled type car in front with a beefier wing and a fully enclosed rear (rear wheels are hidden) and a small wing.

I'd think a design similar to this would be more suited for oval racing. The front wing could double as a bumper of sorts and the rear wheels are protected to prevent cars from being launched into the air when front and rears touch.

Imagine if a car like this were also eligble for ALMS and thus Le Mans. Then you'd attract auto makers looking to be the first to win Sebring, Le Mans and Indy in the same year.

Just a thought, in case IMSA is the sole survivor should the IRL continue it's failure to lead.

Rex, that sort of car was running in a Dodge sportscar series that was around a few years ago. They didn't do ovals but the design of the car sounds identical to Peter Brock's brainchild.

IMSA would try to take over Long Beach if the IRL failed but if the IRL fails, I suspect it means racing has really gone for a dumper in this wacky economy.

AS dumb as some people see the IRL and the management of it, some form of OW racing will exist in the USA. I will say this. If Tony George cant keep the IRL afloat and KILLS the series just leaving his race as a stand alone, I swear to god I will cheer for the first person that punches his lights out. My god after the last 15 years of fighting to get control of Indycars the least he can do is actually turn it into something again. He owes his race and us fans that courtesy....