Quattro Group S

[cut the b.s.]

An interesting thread had been running on this before the forum was revamped, it was mentioned about Motorsport magazine running a feature on this car last year, does anyone know what issue it was in, I'd like to try and get my hands on it
thanks

[BDunnell]

It was the May 2005 issue, which is worth getting for another reason - it includes a full reprint of the original story about, and other features on, Stirling Moss and Denis Jenkinson's Mille Miglia win.

The Audi feature is really interesting, but left me confused as to when the Group S Prototype project, as opposed to the mid-engined Quattro Sport, was canned.

[cut the b.s.]

thanks, now to track it down, hopefully they still have back issues, used to subscribe to Motorsport, has some great articles

[c4]

Just thought I'd drag up this old thread again, was any more info discovered about the project or was this about it. Also does anyone recall the article in Motorsport magazine.

Audi announced that they were planning a Group S car called the 002 Quattro.

Audi had seen the success of the mid engine group B cars and knew the limits of the Front engine layout they had been using since the early 80s. Audi planned to create a mid engined Quattro to replace the wild S1. Walter Rohrl had tested a mid-engined version of the short wheelbase Sport Quattro at Audi's test facility in Desna, Czechoslovakia. That project as well as the 002 were official Audi Sport projects - although in the case of the 'Group S prototype' it was conducted in so much secrecy that not even Ferdinand Piech knew much about it! The car would have made around 300hp if it was to be used for Group S. the reason i belive they would need a 6 cylinder engine to make this power, was so they could develope it . This car is currently on display in the Audi Museum in Ingolstadt, Germany. According to writer John McIlroy it only has 12 km on the clock and was likely never even tested.

Source: SUPERCARS.NET

[dimviii]

at previous Martin Holmes-Pirelli annual edition is a thread about this car,also with photos from the test in Desna.

[MrJan]

I wasn't aware of a Group S Quattro, is there on;y the one prototype around?

On another note I met Jenks when I was a nipper at Weston Super Mare sprint. He's my old man's hero and they were talking for a while. Great bloke :up:

Is that Group S Quittro got such a fame? But anyway now only i came to know of this group. let's wait and see

[noel157]

It was the May 2005 issue, which is worth getting for another reason - it includes a full reprint of the original story about, and other features on, Stirling Moss and Denis Jenkinson's Mille Miglia win.

The Audi feature is really interesting, but left me confused as to when the Group S Prototype project, as opposed to the mid-engined Quattro Sport, was canned.

Remember that article about the MM, especially Jenkinsons notes on the little roller / scrolling device.

[Mirek]

Some photos from tests in Dešná, near Zlín. In fact for several years one Barum rally stage was held through the testing polygon. Now it is devastated as area owner has no interest in rallying. But it was great area! Both narrow tarmac and gravel, in a sharp hill, a big natural jump etc.

That photos are connected with very interesting story of the man who took them, but that is too long for me to rewrite :) That all is very interesting as Audi tested their cars in Czechoslowakia behind the iron curtain. They tested quite often, not only gr.S prototypes but previous gr.B cars as well. As far as I know, they tested also on Šumava. Some Czech technicians were co-drivers for Walter Rohl during tests as well.

http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b_dca6ce380ca733ec61bbd1217fd3bd95.jpg
http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b_98bd8351463cec12e02de8f84492ceb2.jpg

[Mirek]

Dešná testing area in fact wasn't Audi's but JZD Slušovice property. JZD means agricultural co-op :) In fact it was something a little bit out of the socialistic conception. The company was doing genetic-plants development, computer development, they had their own rally team with their own car (evidently inspirated by Audi, see lower). They had their own airfield, horseracing track (where there Barum SS Slušovice is held and where this year shakedown service will be). After the velvet revolution in 1989 JZD Slušovice was nocked down by new "democratic" political forces, especialy people around our former president Václav Havel.

Škoda 160 MTX gr. B, never homologated as it wasn't Škoda factory project
http://web.skodateam.cz/gfx_photos/articles/p8731.jpg
http://web.skodateam.cz/gfx_photos/articles/p8732.jpg

In these days Dešná area looks this way:
http://rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/150-45a53bc8de696.jpg

More photos here:
http://rally-mania.cz/med.php?g=150&au=0

[c4]

Mirek thanx very much, was vaugely aware of the JZD Skoda project but never saw images. Cheers again for the mid engine Quattro images as haven't seen them for a while and also the backround info on Dešná.


BTW loved some of Jenks' detailed descriptions on his loo roll notes for Mille Miglia, like, watch for large dog on left, brake at small Catholic Cross before apex and ignore slow sign at all railway crossings. How pacenotes have become sanitised since their inception LOL.

[c4]

Just one further question about Audi prototypes, was a twin engined Quattro tested, have some vague recollection about one.

[cut the b.s.]

Just one further question about Audi prototypes, was a twin engined Quattro tested, have some vague recollection about one.

A twin engined Golf ran at Pikes Peak in the early 80s, also a husband and wife team ran a twin engined Scirocco on Uk national rounds in the early 80s, but I have no recollection of any twin engined Audis

[Sulland]

Toyota and Opel/Vauxhall also had cars based on Gr S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_B#Group_S

[m.lowe]

Another Group S project
http://www.audi.com/etc/medialib/cms4imp/audi2/company/history/motorsport-highlights.Par.0102.Image.jpg

[Mirek]

What You posted, is Auri RS 002 ;)

[HaCo]

Interesting thread, here is a bigger image of the same car:
http://file037a.bebo.com/12/large/2007/10/24/19/2388693509a5915969920l.jpg

And the explenation next to the car:
http://file037a.bebo.com/12/large/2007/10/24/19/2388693509a5915969833l.jpg

I found these images on this site: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=2221891332

From another forum:
http://www.audisport-iberica.com/foro/uploads/post-14-1108046677.jpg
http://www.audisport-iberica.com/foro/index.php?showtopic=31705&st=30


And A LOT more images here: http://www.autogaleria.pl/forum/showpost.php?p=131356&postcount=5


Hmmm, I'm a bit confused now, is this the Gr S, or is this tge mid-engined Gr B? :S

[cannyboy]

Audi management did not want a mid engined quattro, as they wanted to keep it front engined like the road car - I read that that mid engined car was tested in secret, but what management found out it was canned.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Toyota and Opel/Vauxhall also had cars based on Gr S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_B#Group_S

Well, Wikipédia forgot some Gr.B cars. More manufacters have cars for Gr.B, late 80's!

Here's some from my personal collection:

Lada Samara EVA Gr.B (not homologated, and some people say that was a Gr.S car)
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7811/ladasamaraevagrbprottipte1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
FSO Polonez 2000 Gr.B (I think it was never homologated, but I don't no nothing about it too)
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6361/fsopolonezgrupobprottipqz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Opel Astra 4S (In Portugal the car was named after kadett, and I really thought that was a Gr.B car, not an S)
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6176/opelkadettrallye4wdgrbak9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

(continue)

[TheFlyingTuga]

For Gr.S some pics as well

The Toyota MR2 (I don't know what version it was, because three were built, Gr.S, Gr.B and a hybrid version... a test driver died testing the Gr.S, and the Gr.B version was destroyed in a crash as well... only remaining the Hybrid)
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/7117/toyotamr2grsprottipoqc2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
The Lancias(ECV1 was really a test car, in 1992, in think it was in Geneve, Lancia presented the EVC2, but just to show the lines of the new delta)
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3550/lanciadeltaecvgrsprottixv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3703/lanciadeltaecviigrsprotef9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[TheFlyingTuga]

An then, some curiosities

I read somewhere that Renault have built a Renault 5 GT Turbo gr.S... never seen a photo of it...
From what I read as well, Alfa Romeo was planing to build a Gr.B car too... the model choose, Sprint Veloce... I found a pic over the net, but I think this is not the car... maybe the one the guy from the 306 cosworth had
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/495/alfaromeosprintveloceli0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I found on a Spanish forum, that Seat was planing to built a Gr.B or S! The model was the Ibiza, and the prototype was named after "MARATHON" afer the Gr.B died, but never raced anyway
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4137/seatibizamarathonprottiwe6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

For last... this... thing! Where I found the pic, said that the car was built in 1986 for rallying following Gr.B regulamentations... well... here you got it!
The Australian Gr.B -> Giocatollo Gr.B
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/9721/giocattologroupbrb3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And just for fan...somebody talked about the Golf MkII Twin Turbo of Pikes Peak 86... heres a low res pic
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4417/volkswagengolfiipikespeaf2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[TheFlyingTuga]

Of the 305 V6 gr.B prototype I only found this one :(
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/3427/305v6qm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Sorry for the big script... and for the offtopic :S

Cheers mates

[cut the b.s.]

Sorry for the big script... and for the offtopic :S

Cheers mates

Dont apologise, very interesting post, I knew of the toyota but most others new to me

ps. Alfa is Andy Burton as you thought, he still has this car and I understand it may be resurrected some time :-)

[urabus-denoS2000]

TheFlyingTuga,thats is a REALLY big amount of information for one day!!!
I didnt know for almost any of those cars!!!
Thank you very much

PS:The Lada Samara looks great

[BDunnell]

I would love to find out more about that Peugeot 305!

[TheFlyingTuga]

Well, I made some research of my own about the 305!
There's only two pictures... this I post here, and one from the motor! The car is believed to be in Peugeot's Museum at Sochaux!

If someone got more pictures, please send me!

Thanks

[c4]

Turning into a fascinating thread

Another 305 pic

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8203/88351548smallcp8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

[MrJan]

The Alfa was a home built project with a Ferrari engine in it and as you say he now has a 306 Cosworth.

Video of the Alfa-Ferrari here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2rROTHn5y0

[Mirek]

Does anyone know how was it with Peugeot 405 T16 well known from Pikes Peak or Dakar rally. Was it originaly ment as a gr.S rally car?

[c4]

Some info on 305 and 405 from Rallye-Info.com

The 504 team was called Peugeot Competitions and based at Peugeot's home factory Sochaux.

All in all the Sochaux 504 team has a fantastic heritage, therefore in the whole picture we have to be very grateful indeed to Gérald Allégret. But, while the cars were fantastic, things were not always run efficiently and when Allégret's team set out to develop a RWD 305 V6 for a 1983 launch, that was the final stroke to decide for a completely new start with Peugeot Talbot Sport. To have a RWD V6 for a 1983 launch group B car sounds intriguing enough, but marketing considerations must have put even more question marks over the efficiency of the same team that failed to find a decent program for the so promising 104: 1983 was the sales start of the Peugeot 205 while the Peugeot 305 production was nearing its end.

And the RWD 305 V6 idea was not quite as silly and dull as it sounds. The 305 V6 was smaller and lighter than the 504 Coupé V6 and the 505, plus thanks to group B it had bulky, Quattro style wheel arches, a wider track and improved suspension travel. Remember that throughout group B the African and marathon events were basically never won by a 4x4 car (Bandama 84 being the one and only exception at WRC level and even Hong Kong-Bejing 85 it was a matter of seconds that denied the 240RS of Lars-Erik Torph victory over Mikkola's Quattro). Instead on that type of events the pace was made by all RWD cars like Opel Ascona 400 and Nissan Silvia 240RS with 2.4 4-cylinder engines and Toyota Celica TCT with a 2.1 turbo, and in the comparison the 305 with a 2.7 V6 could have worked very well. At the same time the super-efficient Talbot team had a RWD but mid-engined(!) Horizon Lotus ready (yes, ready, even registered: RAC 777W) and where working to even turbo charge the Lotus engine. It seems clear, had the presence of the Audi Quattro not forced a complete re-think, 305 V6 & Horizon Lotus were the next logical step for Peugeot Talbot Sport to carry on with their usual trick of "Peugeot for African/marathon rallies, Talbot for sprint rallies".

And if it wasn’t for the banning of group B and group S with it (to which the 405 T16 project was aimed), Peugeot would have stayed and kept on winning.

[c4]

Here's a pic I'm sure most are familiar with but anyway,


Group B Talbot Horizon
http://www.groupbrally.com/images/talbot/horizongroupb_02.jpg

Regarding a previous post about the twin engined Quattro prototype. Was aware of the Golf and Scirocco but still think Audi tested a twin engined Quattro. Think it was tested by Rohrl, who was even more blown away by it than the mid engined one.

[c4]

Bit more on the Horizon from Rootes-Chrysler.co.uk

However, the Sunbeam was not planned to remain in production after 1981, and following the introduction of the mid-engined Renault 5 Turbo, Talbot knew it needed to work on a similarly spectacular car.
Lotus began work on a "silhouette" Horizon, identifying that the development of a similar concept to the Renault's was the way forward. Using the same Lotus slant-four engine, sited behind the front seats, the Horizon Group B was the result, and it has to be said, an exciting looking proposition it looked. However, only two prototypes were built before PSA canned it. In 1981, Audi exploded onto the rally scene with its Quattro, and immediately, all competing rally teams realised that they would need four wheel drive in order to remain competitive in the future.

http://www.groupbrally.com/images/talbot/horizongroupb_01.jpg

[BDunnell]

How fascinating. I never knew any of that. Many thanks indeed!

This thread is certainly adding much to my store of knowledge about stillborn Group B and Group S cars.

[TheFlyingTuga]

C4, many thanks for the picture of the 305 V6 Prototype!

Well, what a fascinating turn back for a topic that seems... that is gonna be "closed" soon!

I never had seen a photo of the Talbot Horizon Gr.B... I just known of it!

I find a new site in google... and well... I think it explains everything!

http://www.groupbrally.com/

Hope you guys enjoy it as much as I do!

Cheers

[c4]

Here is an in depth article on the Lancia ECV by Keith Oswin for Autosport 1986
http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/lancia_gp_s.htm

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/images/lancia_gp_s_34view.jpg

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/photos/ecv.jpg

[TheFlyingTuga]

Well, I see now that they miss the Gr.B FSO Polonez, and they not have a picture of the 924 Turbo Gr.B that W. Rohl used. They miss too that Skoda that only was homologated by Czech Skoda, like they did with the Octavia Gr.N and the Fabia RS Kit-Car.

[Mirek]

Maybe I should say that my photos of JZD Slušovice gr. B Škoda 160 MTX prototype wasn't proper group B car. Maybe I could confuse someone :) It was group B, but only 1600 ccm (B5 I think), like for example Lada VFTS from which it had original engine.

Maybe someone is interested in these little group B cars which were fighting in the shadow of those big monsters :) It was RWD, rear engine car with cca 170 Hp at 8000 rpm and cca 180 Nm at 6200 rpm. There were 3 prototypes, 2 with Lada engine, one with Škoda 130 RS Turbo engine (not realized because of missing turbocharger licence). One of those prototypes was in Lány museum but it is not in the online list recently. So at least photos from museum some time a go...
http://garde.plivnik.cz/prototyps/pics/160rs01.jpg
http://garde.plivnik.cz/prototyps/pics/160rs02.jpg
160 MTX prototype made several rallys in 1984 (Blahna was leading in its premiere on rally Valašská zima by 4 minutes from factory prototype Škoda 130LR (driven by Křeček or Kvaizar) when he got stucked off road for 11 minutes). It only made one or two more starts (and some hillclimbs) when the project was cancelled (probably because of factory Škoda 130 LR B9). Although 130 LR was good car having only 1300 ccm engine (Kvaizar was 6th overal on Rally Sanremo 1986!), 160 MTX was definitely better looking, stronger and faster...

[BDunnell]

I certainly remember John Haugland getting the 130 LR up into second place overall in the snow at the start of the 1986 National Breakdown Rally, the first round of that year's British Open Championship. He was mixing it for times with Mikael Sundstrom's Peugeot 205 T16 and Hannu Mikkola's Audi Quattro Sport!

[TheFlyingTuga]

Well, I finished to watch the football... and Portugal won, so I'm in a good mood :P

Here's some missing pieces

Porsche 924 Carrera Turbo Gr.B (know nothing about it)
http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5733/porsche924carreragtrraldn8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mitsubishi Starion RWD (right after the Lancer Turbo...no nothing more about it)
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7562/mitsubishistarionturbost2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Subaru RX Turbo (don't no if it is a Gr.B, more likely a Gr.A car, but from the same era)
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3153/subarurxturbofw1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Found one more from the Talbot
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3759/horizongroupb01rm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Cheers

[c4]

Great to have a colour shot of the Horizon with the official reg.


Some info on the Mitsubishi Starion 4WD which competed in the prototype class on the RAC circa 1984.

Article by Martin Holmes
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iden.asriel//photos/starion/4wd/rallrmag1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iden.asriel//photos/starion/4wd/rallrmag2.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iden.asriel/photos/starion/4wd/fwd5.jpg

Based on the rear wheel drive Mitsubishi flagship, the Starion, the Starion 4WD set out with the goal of winning in group B. It was a 4WD, 350 horsepower version of the Mitsubishi Starion, being developed for group B international competition by Andrew Cowan's British-based Ralliart Team. The team included Alan Wilkinson — an engineer whose rallying credentials are second to none. He came to Team Ralliart via Ford's competition department, Toyota Team Europe and Audi Sport UK, where he was responsible for their very successful Quattro. The mechanical specification of the Starion 4WD Rally were very much a large part of Alan Wilkinson's job, to develop a competition configuration for the car that can then be used for the 20 evolutionary models the company needed to build to gain Group B homologation. With permanent four-wheel-drive and a 2-litre turbocharged engine, the Starion Rally is a very far cry from the old Lancers. Official Group B homologation of the Starion Rally would have come in time for the team to make its debut in world championship rallying with a two car entry on the 1986 Lombard RAC Rally in November. Homologation never occured after it was announced that the 1986 season would be the last for Group B.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/iden.asriel/photos/starion/4wd/fwd4.jpg

[BDunnell]

I think the Starion shown above the Group B car is a Group A one.

[Mirek]

I think so, that RWD one.

[c4]

Yes, the Starion and Subaru RX in the FlyingTuga's post were Group A while the Porsche 924 Turbo was Group 4.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Oh dammmm... I got it all wrong :S

[c4]

A rather poignant reminder of Ove's Group S project, the MR2.
http://www.mr2supercharger.com/GroupBRacing.html
http://www.mr2garage.com/the-rally-aw11.html


Only two of the vehicles exist, one at TTE and the other, a white one, resides in Japan

http://www.mr2supercharger.com/GroupBRacing_files/groupB11.jpg

[sal]

Anyone else got the French language book Groupe B Les Voitures Interdites? Lots of interesting Citroens including a twin engined 4wd Visa!

[bennizw]

I must say, if they had got that Opel Kadett 4WD out on the stages, I am pretty sure that would have been one hell of a rallycar! Still like the looks of it ;) Wonder why nobody has tried to convert one to 4WD in later years for national championships?

[sal]

The Astra 4S has been rebuilt by Vuaxhall in the UK and occassionaly sees the light of day. Andrew Wood gave it is only UK run on the Audi Sport and it went ok but the most obvious version was John Welch's firebreathing rallycross car which I saw in action on a number of occassions.

[BDunnell]

If I remember correctly, Russell Brookes was still expecting to drive the Astra/Kadett 4S on British Open Championship rounds later in the 1986 season when that year's campaign began. In the end, he had to stick with the Manta 400 (and nearly won the title in it, but that's another story).

[MrJan]

Loving this thread as it's throwing up a lot of cars that I was unaware of. The MR2 and the red martini Grp S Lancia I knew about, plus the usual Group B suspects but many of the stranger cars (Lada's,Skoda's etc) I've never seen before.

Such a shame that the MSA in the UK is trying to get rid of these sort of interesting cars (including Burton's 306 and 6r4s) but that is a whole different debate.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Anyone else got the French language book Groupe B Les Voitures Interdites? Lots of interesting Citroens including a twin engined 4wd Visa!

You got that book sal? Could you post some pics of the interdite ones? Or at least say what cars are?Pleaseeeeeeee :P

[Mirek]

BDunnell: Little offtopic but if You want to see Johny Haugland in action again, come to rally Bohemia. He will be driving Škoda 130 RS there as a part of so called historic show ( provisional list of historics here, a lot of them from Germany: http://www.rallybohemia.cz/www/Prihlasene_posadky_RB_2008_historic.pdf ).

[rx-guru]

In 1983 Norwegian Martin "Mister Rallycross" Schanche wanted a 4WD Ford Escort Mk3 to become European Rallycross Champion again, after claiming the title already in 1978, 1979 and 1981. From 1982 the sport of Rallycross was re-opened (!) for four-wheel drive cars and Austrian Franz Wurz (father of Alexander Wurz) claimed the 1982 title with an ex-Mikkola factory Audi quattro while the 1983 title went to Swede Olle Arnesson with a "homebrew" Audi quattro. In the by then for Hewland working British engineer Mike Endean that man Schanche found somebody capable to realise his own idea, a 4WD that could be changed by hand while competing from 28:72 (front:rear) drive stepless to 50:50 by a hydraulic system. The resulting 4WD was called Xtrac (not X-Trac nor X-trac as often seen) system. The car was ready for the British Rallycross Grand Prix at Brands Hatch in December 1983, where Martin used it with an 1860cc 560bhp Zakspeed turbo engine. Mike Endean was there as well as Erich Zakowski (Mister Zakspeed) and Peter Ashcroft of Ford to witness the Norwegian. In 1984 Schanche won "his" title back and all other cars were looking like wheelbarrows against the XR3 that we used to call "Thor’s Hammer". (The Swedish mag 'Teknikens Värld' conducted a car test in 1984 to find out that the XR3 did the 0 to 100km/h [or 0 to about 61mph] sprint in 2.5 seconds.) BTW, that first Xtrac XR3 was later used for Rallycross by the Britons John Smith and Barry Squibb and is nowadays owned by Mike Endean himself. It is rebuilt to Brands Hatch 1983 specs and was used by Endean, who lives as pensioner on one of the Channel Islands, for many a year in hill-climbs.

Schanche and Endean in 1984 were trying to sell their brainchild to Ford (working on the stillborn Escort RS1700T RWD by then) or other manufacturers. While being at the Zakspeed workshops one day Schanche was visited by Rauno Aaltonen who did a test drive with the Xtrac Escort on a car park. Aaltonen was very impressed and told Opel about Schanche’s beast. Opel’s Karl-Heinz Goldstein encouraged Endean soon to work for the German factory team, while Schanche found himself somewhat out-booted. However, Endean left Hewland to set up his own company Xtrac and started to work with Opel on their Group S project, the Opel Kadett 4x4 (not a Group B car and not a Vauxhall Astra 4S or whatever). When the car was ready the drivetrain was the same as in the Schanche XR3 and when it was presented to the press the bonnet was safely locked. Why? Because there was a FORD engine underneath it, a 1860cc Zakspeed turbo mill, and it was all but in the interest of the Opel factory team that the World or even their own GM bosses should know anything about that fact.

However, when the Group S was aborted by the FIA Opel had two 4x4 Kadetts ready, equipped them with normally aspirated 2.4 litre Opel engines of the Ascona 400 and used them for Paris–Dakar, where they went into utter chaos, as Opel was not able to carry enough shock absorbers to Africa to replace the broken ones. Both these cars later went to Endean’s buddy-buddy Briton John Welch who used them in the British and European Rallycross Championships. One of these cars was later bought by Swede Tommy Kristoffersson, as an Xtrac system donor for his own Rallycross Audi Coupé S2. If the other one is now property of Vauxhall in the UK – I do not know.

[RallyCat909]

Man this thread rules, I hope more pics crawl out of the gravel. :)

[Leon]

Thanks to all for this excellent thread.

I´ m in the process of buying the Group B book by Davenport and Klein. Anyone having this book? s it worth the cost?

[jiipee64]

>>I´ m in the process of buying the Group B book by Davenport and Klein.
>>Anyone having this book? s it worth the cost?

Bought it a few months ago. Exellent book. Lot's of politics behind the scenes that time (Like there isn't today)

[Leon]

>>I´ m in the process of buying the Group B book by Davenport and Klein.
>>Anyone having this book? s it worth the cost?

Bought it a few months ago. Exellent book. Lot's of politics behind the scenes that time (Like there isn't today)

Thanks

[Viking]

In 1983 Norwegian Martin "Mister Rallycross" Schanche wanted a 4WD Ford Escort Mk3 to become European Rallycross Champion again, after claiming the title already in 1978, 1979 and 1981. From 1982 the sport of Rallycross was re-opened (!) for four-wheel drive cars and Austrian Franz Wurz (father of Alexander Wurz) claimed the 1982 title with an ex-Mikkola factory Audi quattro while the 1983 title went to Swede Olle Arnesson with a "homebrew" Audi quattro. In the by then for Hewland working British engineer Mike Endean that man Schanche found somebody capable to realise his own idea, a 4WD that could be changed by hand while competing from 28:72 (front:rear) drive stepless to 50:50 by a hydraulic system. The resulting 4WD was called Xtrac (not X-Trac nor X-trac as often seen) system. The car was ready for the British Rallycross Grand Prix at Brands Hatch in December 1983, where Martin used it with an 1860cc 560bhp Zakspeed turbo engine. Mike Endean was there as well as Erich Zakowski (Mister Zakspeed) and Peter Ashcroft of Ford to witness the Norwegian. In 1984 Schanche won "his" title back and all other cars were looking like wheelbarrows against the XR3 that we used to call "Thor’s Hammer". (The Swedish mag 'Teknikens Värld' conducted a car test in 1984 to find out that the XR3 did the 0 to 100km/h [or 0 to about 61mph] sprint in 2.5 seconds.) BTW, that first Xtrac XR3 was later used for Rallycross by the Britons John Smith and Barry Squibb and is nowadays owned by Mike Endean himself. It is rebuilt to Brands Hatch 1983 specs and was used by Endean, who lives as pensioner on one of the Channel Islands, for many a year in hill-climbs.


Video here from what should have been Fords Gr.B car. Wow it was fast! Also Schanche just being himself, furious on strange rules, organisers and so on :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3YKzKtam-0&feature=related

[rx-guru]

Video here from what should have been Fords Gr.B car. Wow it was fast! Also Schanche just being himself, furious on strange rules, organisers and so on :D

Yeah, the "villmannen fra Tana" (the wild man from the Tana region) again… But can one imagine that "Mister Ford Motorsport" himself, the late Peter Ashcroft, after that weekend kept on to belief that RWD (for the Ford RS1700T, that was later aborted and replaced by the Ford RS200) was still the way to go in rallying and also that Ford Boreham, as the motorsport branch of the World concern, should not cooperate with a lunatic from Norway and a handicrafter in England. This by then "Hewland gofer" Mike Endean and his Xtrac Ltd. went on to become the transmission BIG SHOT for the World Rally Championship as well as for Formula One…

[rx-guru]

A twin engined Golf ran at Pikes Peak in the early 80s, also a husband and wife team ran a twin engined Scirocco on Uk national rounds in the early 80s, but I have no recollection of any twin engined Audis

I have never heart about any twin engined Audis either but there were a total of at least five twin engined VWs, all built by Kurt Bergmann from Vienna, the Austrian Formula V wizzard (Kaimann). In 1981 he produced "das doppelte Jettchen" [nicknamed after the famous German childrens book "Das doppelte Lottchen" by Erich Kästner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottie_and_Lisa ], a Jetta with two Golf GTI engines (2x 110bhp = 220bhp). In 1982 there was his "Twin-Scirocco" with 360bhp. For 1985 (390bhp) and 1986 (500bhp) he had build two VW Golf, driven by German rally ace Jochi Kleint for VW Motorsport at the 'Pikes Peak International Hill Climb'. And at the 1987 'Race To The Clouds' Jochi Kleint drove the "BiMotor-Golf" that produced 652bhp (two Golf GTI 16V engines with KKK turbocharger) – to retire due to suspension damage (front, right) just a stone throw away from the Pikes Peak summit. All five were prototypes and had nothing to do with neither Group B nor Group S.

[urabus-denoS2000]

This is a great thread,the best since I joined the forums!!!
Keep up the good work!!!
That www.groupbrally.com (http://www.groupbrally.com) is awesome!!!

[rx-guru]

This is a great thread,the best since I joined the forums!!!
Keep up the good work!!!
That www.groupbrally.com (http://www.groupbrally.com) is awesome!!!

I was somewhat surprised/impressed to see the quite correct information about the Opel Kadett 4x4 on that website. As a matter of fact, when Opel presentet the car to the press my rally counterparts did not know much about its drivetrain and especially nothing about its Ford/Zakspeed engine, as the bonnet was always kept safely locked for them. I did not see the car by then but have known a lot about its components, coz I was well informed by Martin Schanche about what was going on. Therefore, in January 1985 I did a story named "Opel mit neuen Tricks! – Wir lüften das Geheimnis des neuen Kadett 4x4" for my Swiss newspaper MOTORSPORT aktuell (MSa editor Peter Wyss credited it with a funny alias for myself) and we were the only publication to reveal the secrets of the Group S Kadett prototype.

[igi]

Test of Lancia Delta ECV (german) :)

http://www.fiat-klub.si/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10361

[Mirek]

It requires login...

[igi]

Sorry, didn't know that... anyway, here are direct links, hope it works now...

http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/py6-Pic.jpg
http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/qfq-Pic-00.jpg
http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/ots-Pic-00.jpg
http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/31r-Pic-00.jpg
http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/h6v-Pic-00.jpg
http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/ort-Pic-00.jpg
http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0529/nhf-Pic-00.jpg

[A.F.F.]

Any info or pics about Fiat Uno 4wd. I saw some live footage of it and it ended up with a front wheel damage. I guess it was from Acropolis. I would love to know some specs about it.

[Mirek]

igi: Thank You!

[m.lowe]

Rallycross Kadett Xtrac here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az8hcXg8-iY&feature=related

[BDunnell]

I can only agree again that this is a superb thread!


Endean left Hewland to set up his own company Xtrac and started to work with Opel on their Group S project, the Opel Kadett 4x4 (not a Group B car and not a Vauxhall Astra 4S or whatever).

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that the Group S Kadett was the same car as the Astra 4S?

[rx-guru]

I can only agree again that this is a superb thread!



Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that the Group S Kadett was the same car as the Astra 4S?

Coz Opel built and developed the two Kadetts 4x4 they remain Opel Kadetts, even if they were later just baptized Vauxhall Astra 4S by the Britons. See, it does not matter if somebody starts to call a horse a cow, it will remain a horse, nevertheless. ;)

[FAL]

Some info on the Mitsubishi Starion 4WD which competed in the prototype class on the RAC circa 1984.


Just to clarify for history, the only time the RAC Rally had a class for "prototypes" (then Gp6) was the cancelled 1967 event. It had a separate rally for Gp5/6 cars running ahead in 1968 over the whole route and in later years a separate national event runing behind, usually over the last leg of the route only.

[c4]

Just to clarify for history, the only time the RAC Rally had a class for "prototypes" (then Gp6) was the cancelled 1967 event. It had a separate rally for Gp5/6 cars running ahead in 1968 over the whole route and in later years a separate national event runing behind, usually over the last leg of the route only.

You're right, it was a separate national event behind the main event that two prototype Starion 4WD's ran in the national section of the 1984 RAC.

[sal]

http://www.rallyfoto.be/albums/826/images/IMG_1192.JPG

Some great photos on Juha Boss's site from the Eiffel rally at the weekend here showing the MR2's in all their glory! Is this the first time they've been seen officialy in public?

[TheFlyingTuga]

Hy guys!

I and a friend are searching for info to his site, of rally cars that never compete oficialy! This topic helped a lot, but now we want more info (we're trying to do something like the F1 rejeted but in Portuguese).

Anyone have, or know how can I bought the book, Groupe B: Les voitures interdites?

I really want to know more about the projects that are show there.

Cheers

[rx-guru]

Video here from what should have been Fords Gr.B car. Wow it was fast! Also Schanche just being himself, furious on strange rules, organisers and so on :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3YKzKtam-0&feature=related

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/SchancheZakowskiXtracGBRXGP1983.jpg

© Eddi Laumanns (aka rx-guru)

December 10 1983 – Day One of "Mjølner" aka "Mjöllnir" or "Thor’s Hammer":
Norwegian Rallycross ace Martin Schanche and his German 560bhp Zakspeed engine supplier Erich Zakowski pictured with Schanche’s brand new Ford Escort XR3 T16 4x4 (aka "the first ever Xtrac") during the 1983 British Rallycross Grand Prix at the Brands Hatch Circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3YKzKtam-0&feature=related

[Zico]

Saw this interesting article recently which reminded me of this excellent thread, and deemed it worthy its resurection.



After a second fatal incident during the 1986 rally World Championship regulators pulled the plug once and for all on Group B cars, in a stroke sweeping aside the hive of exciting and technically interesting Group S cars that were gestating behind the scenes.
Before this happened though, some of the secret manufacturer supercar projects were well underway and a skeleton regulation structure was already in place. ‘After many meetings with the manufacturers we arrived at the conclusion that we've got to stick to around 300bhp. Ten cars will be the minimum, but it's not impossible that the manufacturers will build 20 or 30, all strictly identical, which must be homologated and cannot change during that year.
‘There will be no evolution during that year, but it will be no problem for the following year - just produce 10 cars at the beginning of each year. That puts each manufacturer on the same footing at the beginning of the year.' That was FISA technical commission president Gabriel Cadringher speaking in the mid-'80s of the planned Group S regulations. These were never definitive, but Cadringher's ideas were to mandate side, front and vertical impact tests, obligatory steel rollcages and a minimum weight of 1000kg. In its attempt to regulate a maximum 300bhp, FISA's Group S rules were expected to allow 2.4-litre normally aspirated engines and 1.2-litre forced induction units. Group S cars would have been allowed to run in 1987 WRC rallies, but not for points, with the intention of contesting the complete 1988 World Rally Championship.
But just one month later FISA decided to stop the rally supercars short. Group B cars were outlawed from the beginning of the 1987 season, and FISA's proposed revision of the supercar rules was stillborn, leaving Group A the top level of contemporary rallying.


In response, all non-Lancia works drivers signed a four-point statement that was issued to FISA. It read as follows: ‘The drivers totally support FISA's efforts to control both spectator and driver safety, but we feel that the current proposals will not achieve the desired results and would request that consideration be given to the following points:

1 The drivers are very concerned about the use of turbochargers from both the safety point of view and that of control of power in rallying.
2 The drivers are very concerned about the use of plastic and inflammable materials in current rally cars.
3 The drivers agree with FISA's objective of a maximum power in rally cars of 300bhp but wish to point out that current Group B cars have developed many safety features by way of suspension, steering, brakes etc, which will not be available in Group A cars.
4 We recommend that the use of slick tyres be completely banned in rallies.
Given all the previous points, we believe that a total change to Group A for World Championship rallying is not a solution to all the problems that currently exist. Many manufacturers without suitable Group A cars will be forced out of the sport and, as a result, we would respectfully request that FISA gives consideration to a Group S formula with the following major characteristics:
A Normally aspirated engines, maximum power 300bhp.
B No plastics or inflammable materials.
C Limitation on aerodynamic devices.
D A crash test for all rally cars.
E Minimum production qualification that will allow as many manufacturers to contest World Championship rallies as possible.
‘With the introduction of the measures listed above, the drivers believe that safety in rallies will be greatly improved without destroying the stability of our sport.'
Unsurprisingly, the drivers didn't get their way, but many agreed with them and, given the lead time in production, prototype Group S cars were already cropping up in likely places.

LANCIA
Fiat's Experimental Composite Vehicle (ECV) was Lancia's answer. Its S4 Group B car had a tubular steel frame, which was replaced in the ECV by a load bearing carbon fibre and Kevlar tub. In the show car even the wheel rims were carbon fabric with aluminium honeycomb centres. There was now a composite propshaft, and the ECV retained the S4's Hewland gearbox, together with its linked turbocharger/supercharger induction arrangement.

(The last part re- supercharger is inacurate btw.. the ECV engine had 2 sequential turbos.)


PEUGEOT
As for Peugeot, PTS chassis engineer Jean-Claude Vaucard explained their position at the time of the ban: ‘There was a lot of scope left in the 205T16, particularly with new technology for the transmission. We were at the beginning of four-wheel drive, and if we were to stay at that level [in 1986] it would have been archaic.'
When Group S was mooted, the Peugeot team reasoned that because the front wheels prescribe greater radii than the rears in a corner, the locking characteristics of the viscous couplings used at the time were the reason for the understeer generated on corner entry.
Consequently, adjustable mechanical slip limiters were being developed for the centre and axle diffs of PTS' Group S transmission - until the ban came - but the car's concept was not in dispute: ‘We were always going to have a rear-mounted, mid-engine layout,' explained Vaucard, ‘but the exact definition of the concept depended on the final engine regulation. With the forced induction equivalence ratio that FISA had decided for Group S we were going to use a 1200cc turbo. But we didn't think that was a good solution because it was expensive, runs at very high speeds and will break often.'
Like Lancia, PTS had also started to build the basic bones of its Group S car and, amongst other technological advances, twin dampers at each wheel were proposed, but there was scepticism over active suspension: ‘If you can change the car's level very quickly it can be an advantage from one stage to another, but when you change the level of the car you change the camber too, and therefore any advantages inherent in the tyres are finished. What you gain by having an optimised ride height you lose out by at least three times by not having good camber.'
Testing a 205T16 with an automatic clutch showed it was 0.5 seconds quicker from rest to 400m than a conventional car, but Vaucard discounted any possibility of using a twin-clutch gearbox. This was considered too heavy and not beefy enough to during this period, John Wheeler, also considered having a front engine behind the front axle the way to go for good weight distribution in a rally car that is to be used off road. But in the end with the company's RS200 rally car this was outweighed by the disadvantages of excessive heat in the footwell, packaging of the steering and exhaust, catering for left and right-hand drive and front driveshaft lengths. In the end, the team achieved a similar effect with the engine mounted at the rear and the transmission as far forward as possible.
It's likely then that a Ford Group S concept would have needed little variation from the basic RS200 philosophy to be competitive, though Wheeler concedes ‘it does look as if Audi were further down the line to Group S, but Lancia and ourselves were in rather different positions - we both had cars which were a step further toward Group S.'

TOYOTA
Most teams designing a Group S car favoured the rear-mid-engined format. Toyota was one, with its transverse in-line four or longitudinal V6 (or four cylinder) sitting behind the occupants and driving all four wheels. Lotus was rumoured to have been involved in this Group S development, and in 1985 a prototype was tested in Eskdalemuir forest by team boss Ove Anderson and driver Bjôrn Waldegärd. It also tested at the Bagshot military proving ground in England, before disappearing off the radar.



Then, out of the blue, the four-cylinder prototype appeared in public at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in June 2006. Both the four-wheel drive Toyotas were designed before it had been decided to restrict forced induction Group S engines to 1.2-litre, so the turbocharged in-line twin cam four of 2.1-litres seen in the Goodwood car had a maximum output of... 750bhp.


The transverse car then seen at Goodwood the following year was the actual one that was tested in 1985. It is clad, as is its sister, in lightweight carbon/Kevlar bodywork resembling that of a Mk1 MR2, covering a tubular ‘birdcage' chassis/roll over frame. The weight of the transverse car totalled about... 750kg.
The then President of TTE, Ove Andersson, did most of the early testing of this car before the programme was cancelled. A very experienced and successful rally driver in his own right, Andersson has driven the gamut of rally cars, including rear-engined Alpine A110 Berlinettes and the Lancia Stratos - a short wheelbase, rear transverse engined, two-wheel drive car, yet he stresses that it is an understatement to say that driving the Toyota Group S car was unpredictable: ‘You never knew what it was going to do. With such a short wheelbase and such power in such a light car it could swap ends at any time, and without any warning.'
While discussing the various Group S designs that were around in 1986, and the potential performances and stage speeds of these extreme machines, Andersson, the experienced rallyman turned racer, reflected on the ‘86 FISA ban: ‘I think we were lucky, you know!'




If anyones interested I'll try and hunt down the actual article link, it had some good pics of the Grp S MR2

[OldF]

Thank you Zico for bringing this thread up again. It was my attention to take my time and read this thread but there is coming new threads all the time and when it disappeared from the first page I forgot about it. Lot of interesting reading and pics.



In 1983 Norwegian Martin "Mister Rallycross" Schanche wanted a 4WD Ford Escort Mk3 to become European Rallycross Champion again, after claiming the title already in 1978, 1979 and 1981. From 1982 the sport of Rallycross was re-opened (!) for four-wheel drive cars and Austrian Franz Wurz (father of Alexander Wurz) claimed the 1982 title with an ex-Mikkola factory Audi quattro while the 1983 title went to Swede Olle Arnesson with a "homebrew" Audi quattro. In the by then for Hewland working British engineer Mike Endean that man Schanche found somebody capable to realise his own idea, a 4WD that could be changed by hand while competing from 28:72 (front:rear) drive stepless to 50:50 by a hydraulic system. The resulting 4WD was called Xtrac (not X-Trac nor X-trac as often seen) system. The car was ready for the British Rallycross Grand Prix at Brands Hatch in December 1983, where Martin used it with an 1860cc 560bhp Zakspeed turbo engine. Mike Endean was there as well as Erich Zakowski (Mister Zakspeed) and Peter Ashcroft of Ford to witness the Norwegian. In 1984 Schanche won "his" title back and all other cars were looking like wheelbarrows against the XR3 that we used to call "Thor’s Hammer". (The Swedish mag 'Teknikens Värld' conducted a car test in 1984 to find out that the XR3 did the 0 to 100km/h [or 0 to about 61mph] sprint in 2.5 seconds.) BTW, that first Xtrac XR3 was later used for Rallycross by the Britons John Smith and Barry Squibb and is nowadays owned by Mike Endean himself. It is rebuilt to Brands Hatch 1983 specs and was used by Endean, who lives as pensioner on one of the Channel Islands, for many a year in hill-climbs.

Schanche and Endean in 1984 were trying to sell their brainchild to Ford (working on the stillborn Escort RS1700T RWD by then) or other manufacturers. While being at the Zakspeed workshops one day Schanche was visited by Rauno Aaltonen who did a test drive with the Xtrac Escort on a car park. Aaltonen was very impressed and told Opel about Schanche’s beast. Opel’s Karl-Heinz Goldstein encouraged Endean soon to work for the German factory team, while Schanche found himself somewhat out-booted. However, Endean left Hewland to set up his own company Xtrac and started to work with Opel on their Group S project, the Opel Kadett 4x4 (not a Group B car and not a Vauxhall Astra 4S or whatever). When the car was ready the drivetrain was the same as in the Schanche XR3 and when it was presented to the press the bonnet was safely locked. Why? Because there was a FORD engine underneath it, a 1860cc Zakspeed turbo mill, and it was all but in the interest of the Opel factory team that the World or even their own GM bosses should know anything about that fact.

However, when the Group S was aborted by the FIA Opel had two 4x4 Kadetts ready, equipped them with normally aspirated 2.4 litre Opel engines of the Ascona 400 and used them for Paris–Dakar, where they went into utter chaos, as Opel was not able to carry enough shock absorbers to Africa to replace the broken ones. Both these cars later went to Endean’s buddy-buddy Briton John Welch who used them in the British and European Rallycross Championships. One of these cars was later bought by Swede Tommy Kristoffersson, as an Xtrac system donor for his own Rallycross Audi Coupé S2. If the other one is now property of Vauxhall in the UK – I do not know.

Do you (or someone else) know if the centre differential was a planetary differential? By the front/rear split from 28:72 to 50:50 it seem to be a planetary differential with a clutch locking front and rear axels together.

[rx-guru]

Thank you Zico for bringing this thread up again. It was my attention to take my time and read this thread but there is coming new threads all the time and when it disappeared from the first page I forgot about it. Lot of interesting reading and pics.




Do you (or someone else) know if the centre differential was a planetary differential? By the front/rear split from 28:72 to 50:50 it seem to be a planetary differential with a clutch locking front and rear axels together.

For all remaining questions you could check with "Mister Rallycross" himself. He is most of the times an approachable guy. ;) See: http://www.schanche.com/

[rx-guru]

Thank you Zico for bringing this thread up again. It was my attention to take my time and read this thread but there is coming new threads all the time and when it disappeared from the first page I forgot about it. Lot of interesting reading and pics.




Do you (or someone else) know if the centre differential was a planetary differential? By the front/rear split from 28:72 to 50:50 it seem to be a planetary differential with a clutch locking front and rear axels together.

Apropos: Before I forget. Is Jorma "Jokke" Hannula still hanging out in your own country? He was Martin’s mechanic with the Xtrac for a couple of years. He must know almost everything about the car. He used to work for Matti Alamäki, went to Martin Schanche in Norway, then worked for Seppo Niittymäki (with Seppo’s own Xtrac as well as the Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 E2 that saved him the 1987 European RX title), before "going back home" to Matti Alamäki again.

[ant0ny]

Does anyone know what the engine Zakspeed build for the Kadett 4x4 was?

I have seen a picture of the engine and the cutaway drawing that Opel used with the media release showing the turbo down low in front of the engine. The only other reference is that it's a "Ford 1860cc Zakspeed Turbo" engine and I never seen any mention what the block was and head etc.

Here it in the Opel Kadett 4x4

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/turbokev/zakspeed1.jpg

And here is another Zakspeed engine same or similar but by the turbo position from another application.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l110/turbokev/zakspeed.jpg

Antony

[schanche]

Hi folks
Vauxhall Opel Astra Kaddet
Just thought i would post this link for you from my Tube site maybe of interest to you ?
]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7wSXx6CsSE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7wSXx6CsSE[/color)

I have some other Post's on there of the awesome Astra at cadwell and at Brands Hatch some Incar action footage!

[moose_it666]

another Group B prototype :
Alfasud sprint 6V

http://alfasud.alfisti.net/as6ve.html

[Langdale Forest]

The front of that looks sort of like an S4, only more uglier at the rear.

[RICARDO75]

My favorite: 1986 Toyota MR2 222D

http://www.groupbrally.com/images/toyota/groupB12.jpghttp://direita3.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/29.jpghttp://direita3.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/37.jpg?w=450&h=289http://direita3.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/66.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNSVmIU6h9o&feature=player_embedded#