For those sceptical of drifting

[Captain VXR]

watch this video of awesomeness and then your opinion is guaranteed to change (I cannot guarantee this and I coud be lieing through my teeth here)
http://www.vimeo.com/3045114
I can count three manufacturer backed cars - Red Bull Pontiac Solstice, Falken Mustang and Mopar Viper
Is drifting a motorsport in your opinions?

[steve_spackman]

Is drifting a motorsport in your opinions?

that would be a negative

[Glen 320]

I saw some drifting at rockingham a couple of years back as part of the old thunder sunday promotions (ah those were the days!) Yes it was quite impressive but after you'd seen a couple of runs it got boring pretty quick.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is cool...but a distraction, nothing I would pay good money to see....

[MrJan]

I'm still not sure it's a sport, it's like ice dancing for cars and we all know that ice dancing isn't a real sport.

Though I do think it's absolutely amazing and wouldn't mind seeing some, just don't expect me to invest the same money/time/effort as I would going to watch rallying or certain circuit races.

[El Libertador]

Sprint car racing on dirt. That's how real men drift. Just my not-so-humble opinion, of course. Drifting reminds me of monster trucks, it involves cars but it's not really motorsport, it's some form of entertainment. And if you enjoy it, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Rollo]

Is drifting a motorsport in your opinions?

Drifting is the Diet Coke of rallying, is the 20/20 of rallying, the tip and giggle for the uneducated masses. Find me a single drifter who would have the testicular fortitude to do this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604540639943123451

[Daniel]

Drifting is the Diet Coke of rallying, is the 20/20 of rallying, the tip and giggle for the uneducated masses. Find me a single drifter who would have the testicular fortitude to do this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604540639943123451
How did I know you were going to post a Climbdance video? What annoys me is when someone sees a video of proper rallying and comments on the drifting.

Drifting is even less of a motorsport than drag racing.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Daniel...it takes real gonads to hang onto 8000 hp of nitro methane powered fun running up to 300 plus mph in less than 5 seconds. Drag racing is the ultimate game of reaction time and hanging onto a LOT of power. While it isn't your cup of tea, it is motorsport and one hell of a spectacle. I wouldn't put it down there with drifting. Drifting is alright but you notice the people who are really good at it are rally drivers who probably laugh at how slow they are going....

[Jag_Warrior]

Sprint car racing on dirt. That's how real men drift. Just my not-so-humble opinion, of course. Drifting reminds me of monster trucks, it involves cars but it's not really motorsport, it's some form of entertainment. And if you enjoy it, there's nothing wrong with that.

:up:

The first drifting "race" I saw at a NOPI event was sort of interesting. But I quickly found myself saying, "Why???"

For those that like drifting, that's cool. But I just can't get into it...

[schmenke]

I thought the point of rubber-on-tarmac was to eliminate lateral acceleration :dozey:
If you want to drift, like El Lib says, do it on dirt :mark:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Schmenke....you know that, I know that...but the kids think it is COOL!!!

[Easy Drifter]

Pa. Posse vs the Outlaws. Whooeee!

[ShiftingGears]

No, I don't think it's a real sport.

[Azumanga Davo]

How did I know you were going to post a Climbdance video? What annoys me is when someone sees a video of proper rallying and comments on the drifting.

Drifting is even less of a motorsport than drag racing.....

Erm, cheers, I think? :p :

http://www.jigzawe.com/sunday/IMG_05444.jpg

[leopard]

cool.

[ChrisS]

I do think is a motorsport, like autocross and autotesting are also motorsports but they all test precision driving skills

Neither drifting nor autotesting appeals to me though

[Mark]

It's not a sport unless you can measure it electronically!

[Daniel]

Daniel...it takes real gonads to hang onto 8000 hp of nitro methane powered fun running up to 300 plus mph in less than 5 seconds. Drag racing is the ultimate game of reaction time and hanging onto a LOT of power. While it isn't your cup of tea, it is motorsport and one hell of a spectacle. I wouldn't put it down there with drifting. Drifting is alright but you notice the people who are really good at it are rally drivers who probably laugh at how slow they are going....

Sure it takes balls to do that but it takes balls to walk up to a heavily built 7ft tall dude in a bar/pub and say you fancy his mum. Doesn't make it a sport. I've been dragged to a few drag racing meets in my time and it just seems to me that all it takes is reaction time and good gearchange skills which is just a minute part of sports such as rallying or racing. Just like drifting requires the skill to get the car sideways and keep it there but it's only a small part of the skill rallying requires so it's not really proper motorsport.

[MrJan]

Sure it takes balls to do that but it takes balls to walk up to a heavily built 7ft tall dude in a bar/pub and say you fancy his mum. Doesn't make it a sport. I've been dragged to a few drag racing meets in my time and it just seems to me that all it takes is reaction time and good gearchange skills which is just a minute part of sports such as rallying or racing. Just like drifting requires the skill to get the car sideways and keep it there but it's only a small part of the skill rallying requires so it's not really proper motorsport.

I think that drifting requires more skill than you give it credit for. I reckon most rally drivers would struggle in drifting because they aren't used to balancing the car on it's very edge for such long periods. I still think that rally drivers are more skillful but also think that you are being overly harsh.

Oh and drag racing kicks ass too.

Drifting is for chavs with too many Halfords vouchers.

Now, Autograss, that is proper sideways stuff.

[Azumanga Davo]

Sure it takes balls to do that but it takes balls to walk up to a heavily built 7ft tall dude in a bar/pub and say you fancy his mum. Doesn't make it a sport. I've been dragged to a few drag racing meets in my time and it just seems to me that all it takes is reaction time and good gearchange skills which is just a minute part of sports such as rallying or racing. Just like drifting requires the skill to get the car sideways and keep it there but it's only a small part of the skill rallying requires so it's not really proper motorsport.

Well, excuuuuuuse us for not being anything like rallying. All the better for it, I say...

[Captain VXR]

Drifting is the Diet Coke of rallying, is the 20/20 of rallying, the tip and giggle for the uneducated masses. Find me a single drifter who would have the testicular fortitude to do this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604540639943123451

Kris Meeke?
Rhys Millen (Rod Millen's sun)?
Would you have the balls to drift down this?
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/albums/edc22008/ESC_0302_copy.sized.jpg
Or to do this in two highly prepared rwd converted Imprezas?
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/albums/edc-team/DSC_7365_copy.sized.jpg

[Captain VXR]

Drifting is for chavs with too many Halfords vouchers.

Now, Autograss, that is proper sideways stuff.

F1 is a glorified procession for toff and bankers. Stop generalising.
Find me an autograss car prepped as highly as this:
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/drift-car-projects-builds/29908-driftworks-s15-2jzgte.html

[Captain VXR]

It's not a sport unless you can measure it electronically!

You can:
http://www.driftbox.com/

F1 is a glorified procession for toff and bankers. Stop generalising.
Find me an autograss car prepped as highly as this:
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/drift-car-projects-builds/29908-driftworks-s15-2jzgte.html

Easy......

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/18/british-mags-set-indoor-speed-records/

[Captain VXR]

Daniel...it takes real gonads to hang onto 8000 hp of nitro methane powered fun running up to 300 plus mph in less than 5 seconds. Drag racing is the ultimate game of reaction time and hanging onto a LOT of power. While it isn't your cup of tea, it is motorsport and one hell of a spectacle. I wouldn't put it down there with drifting. Drifting is alright but you notice the people who are really good at it are rally drivers who probably laugh at how slow they are going....

So sliding at 100+mph between concrete walls on a narrow track takes no balls?
Name one rally driver who has won a pro level drift championship
I can't name any apart from Rhys Millen who incidentally competed his drift car in Pikes Peak and came 2nd in class
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doIU_SHUvys

[Daniel]

F1 is a glorified procession for toff and bankers. Stop generalising.
Find me an autograss car prepped as highly as this:
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/drift-car-projects-builds/29908-driftworks-s15-2jzgte.html
Nice way to wreck a car that could have actually been driven at speed :mark:

[Daniel]

So sliding at 100+mph between concrete walls on a narrow track takes no balls?
Name one rally driver who has won a pro level drift championship
I can't name any apart from Rhys Millen who incidentally competed his drift car in Pikes Peak and came 2nd in class
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doIU_SHUvys
That's not drifting. Yes it's a drift but that's not drifting......

[steve_spackman]

So sliding at 100+mph between concrete walls on a narrow track takes no balls?
Name one rally driver who has won a pro level drift championship
I can't name any apart from Rhys Millen who incidentally competed his drift car in Pikes Peak and came 2nd in class
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doIU_SHUvys

this is not a sport..its like ice skating..just for fun.

[steve_spackman]

Kris Meeke?
Rhys Millen (Rod Millen's sun)?
Would you have the balls to drift down this?
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/albums/edc22008/ESC_0302_copy.sized.jpg
Or to do this in two highly prepared rwd converted Imprezas?
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/albums/edc-team/DSC_7365_copy.sized.jpg

BORING :s nore:

Much more exciting....just like a real motorsport....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e-OJ3dtpeVQ

[Captain VXR]

Easy......

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/18/british-mags-set-indoor-speed-records/

ooooooooooooooooooh 82 miles per hour!
On a lot of corners the drift cars are entering at 100+MPH

[Captain VXR]

That's not drifting. Yes it's a drift but that's not drifting......

You can see the car drifting in the video I posted in the first page where he WON the drift event

[Captain VXR]

Much more exciting....just like a real motorsport....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e-OJ3dtpeVQ
That video is exciting :)
Have you seen a professional drift event - its even better live than BTCC
Did you even read the thread I sent you earlier?
Edit - about the Halfords thing:
BTCC car:
http://www.stillphotography.co.uk/gallery/d/16241-3/BTCC_Thrux_1_5_05_039.jpg
As you can see a bodykit, bright colours and a big spoiler
Drift car:
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hdrp_0602_team_falken_1969_chevy_camaro_drift/index.html
Nice classic muscle car used as it should be
Before anyone gets offended about the BTCC thing I support it alot and am only trying to broaden a very narrow mind

[Captain VXR]

BORING :s nore:

Do I spy a keyboard warrior?
I take it in good humour

[Captain VXR]

Nice way to wreck a car that could have actually been driven at speed :mark:

It is used at speed:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vPwHLit8cj4
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dY7nYPWxOU8
I don't see how it is wrecked, unless a highly tuned Supra engine is somehow slow :rolleyes:

[Captain VXR]

Sorry for posting so much but I just found a perfect way to show how fast and skillfull drifting is:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DngTGAEYdg4
Edit - I'm not trying to make people like drifting, just to apreciate the skill involved at the top level :)

[schmenke]

...rwd converted Imprezas...


Terrible waste of an Impreza... :p :

[Captain VXR]

Terrible waste of an Impreza... :p :

I think these guys used to be sponsored by Subaru at some point :p
Anyway drifting would be boring if it was just 200(240)sxs

ooooooooooooooooooh 82 miles per hour!
On a lot of corners the drift cars are entering at 100+MPH

Are they indoors when they're doing it?

[Captain VXR]

Are they indoors when they're doing it?

They can be:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FLd8K9EZT9I
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iHsZwSDqXO8&feature=related

[steve_spackman]

Do I spy a keyboard warrior?
I take it in good humour

sorry no 'keyboard warrior' here mate ha ha

[urabus-denoS2000]

Kris Meeke?
Rhys Millen (Rod Millen's sun)?
Would you have the balls to drift down this?
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/albums/edc22008/ESC_0302_copy.sized.jpg
Or to do this in two highly prepared rwd converted Imprezas?
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/albums/edc-team/DSC_7365_copy.sized.jpg


I think it is motorsport,because it involves a car and a driver :)

I saw it for the first (and so far the only) time on a rally last year at the super-special stage as a part of some promo runs.I was delighted (although I was a lot more impressed with some auto-slalom Yugo 16000 cc beasts :cool: ) ,it was something different and interesting.But it became boring.

But about these pics.....

What does it mean to have guts to do that....
What if you make a mistake?You end in the grass and go for another try....
This takes guts,the greatest drift in all kinds of motorsport...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewxrNSOKFow
Gigi Galli

I just dont think it is professional enough....
I still see it as a part of the 90s street racing move,became popular after a few movies, and I just cant take it seriously

But if it continues to evolve like this,it will surely become motorsport (maybe it already is)

And you like it,enjoy it.... :cool:

[urabus-denoS2000]

Hey,just remembered that this is MOTORSPORTFORUMS.COM and drifting doesnt have a forum :D

[Rollo]

Would you have the balls to drift down this?
Or to do this in two highly prepared rwd converted Imprezas?


That would be a breeze.

Would I like to do it? No. I believe that there's already a highly accurate measuring device for drifting though:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2334/2136703337_f303dd017e.jpg

Let's see said people take their motors for a drift on this:
http://www.virginmedia.com/microsites/sport/slideshow/mcrae-career/img_5.jpg
Then we might be impressed.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rollo....THAT is how I have always seen it. Rallying was drifting with no room for error..

Nice tag line by the way....I think Cherry is the toughest old bird going....mind you Chuck would be blinded in a fight since Cherry wears suits so bright the colour blind would have issues...

[Easy Drifter]

I will admit to having only watched a little of so called 'Drifting'.
I am an old f--t and to me all I have seen is power sliding not drifting.
There is a difference.
When I raced, in the distant past, there was no greater feeling than achieving a real high speed drift.
Harewood Acres had a turn called Big Drift.
Real drifts could be done at 2, 4 (the Chute) maybe 3 and 8 at Mosport.
The Chute was my favourite. At 130 mph+ it was a rush. This was in the 60's.
That is where my posting name comes from.

[leopard]

I think it is motorsport,because it involves a car and a driver :)


If not motorsport, it must be autosport, musn't it? :)

[Daniel]

You can see the car drifting in the video I posted in the first page where he WON the drift event

Good for him. Still doesn't make it a proper motorsport......

[leopard]

Well, this might or might not need answer ...

The term of motorsport seems to be universal use for racing. I think a clever choice to name a domain, who created it? ... :)

[wedge]

Don't worry Captain VXR, I find drifting a guilty pleasure.

Nice to read the usual snobbery, no different to the road racers looking down on oval racers.

It's OK to watch Top Gear et al and see those RWD drifting, its OK to look for empty roundabouts in your BMWs, MX-5s but the minute you see a modded car go sideways in a drifting series and most will look down on them.

Not surprised to find drifting the lowest of the low because unfortunately it started in Japan where their car modding scene is often inspired by JGTC/Super GT.

Ever heard of Keichi Tsuchiya? Raced in Japan and Le Mans, runs Honda team in SGT; the Tiff Needell, Jason Plato of Japan and is also a TV presenter, and regarded as drifting legend. Search youtube for how to drift in the classic Toyota AE6.

[MrJan]

Don't worry Captain VXR, I find drifting a guilty pleasure.

Nice to read the usual snobbery, no different to the road racers looking down on oval racers.

It's OK to watch Top Gear et al and see those RWD drifting, its OK to look for empty roundabouts in your BMWs, MX-5s but the minute you see a modded car go sideways in a drifting series and most will look down on them.

Not surprised to find drifting the lowest of the low because unfortunately it started in Japan where their car modding scene is often inspired by JGTC/Super GT.

Ever heard of Keichi Tsuchiya? Raced in Japan and Le Mans, runs Honda team in SGT; the Tiff Needell, Jason Plato of Japan and is also a TV presenter, and regarded as drifting legend. Search youtube for how to drift in the classic Toyota AE6.

I've seen some Keichi stuff and agree that drifting is a skill, it's just not a motorsport though because I only rate it as playing about. I don't care how they measure it either because for the most part it's done on big wide tracks (at least it is whenever I see it) with big old turbos making it much easier.

That said I thought that Initial D was a class film and if this guy knew how to drift then perhaps he wouldn't look like such a dick :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8-rrAjZz2fI

[wedge]

it's just not a motorsport though because I only rate it as playing about.

Fair enough but nobody here has fully explained those reasons, though someone quite rightly said drifting in motorsports is what figure skating and snowboarding/halfpipe, gymnastics are to the olympics.

You have (motor)racing and (motor)sport. The former is more dependent on the stopwatch yet the essence of sport is to compete and out do the other which is what drifting involves.

So is drifting an argument over what is and isn't sport or plain old snobbery attitudes?

[MrJan]

So poker is a sport? Comparing the size of your [insert object here] ;) is a sport?

I honestly don't know why I don't rate it as sport. I think that it's an amazing contest but I just don't feel that it's a sport. (Although weirdly I think that skateboarding is). I don't think it's snobbery at all though, I've watched all sorts of things in my time and, as I've already said, would be happy to watch some drifting.

[Captain VXR]

I've seen some Keichi stuff and agree that drifting is a skill, it's just not a motorsport though because I only rate it as playing about. I don't care how they measure it either because for the most part it's done on big wide tracks (at least it is whenever I see it) with big old turbos making it much easier.

That said I thought that Initial D was a class film and if this guy knew how to drift then perhaps he wouldn't look like such a dick :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8-rrAjZz2fI
Turbos make it easier to spin with lag and all that, however N/A cars need more manfoot to be able to keep up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kHqVLvxDtM
Narrow tree lined road for drifting :)

[Firstgear]

Captain VXR, to qualify as motorsport it has to have grid girls.

That's why:

F1 = Motorsport
Monster Jam = Family Entertainment

So until you post some pic's...we can't really decide.

[urabus-denoS2000]

Turbos make it easier to spin with lag and all that, however N/A cars need more manfoot to be able to keep up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kHqVLvxDtM
Narrow tree lined road for drifting :)


Ahmmmmm,you call that narrow?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:


This is more my style....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCWz2UQaGN8

[urabus-denoS2000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIOGlllGDw&feature=related

The best drifting,not even 4WD but FWD....Jean Ragnotti

[Captain VXR]

Captain VXR, to qualify as motorsport it has to have grid girls.

That's why:

F1 = Motorsport
Monster Jam = Family Entertainment

So until you post some pic's...we can't really decide.
http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/edc22008/ESC_0013
The (ex)official girl of the European Drift Championship
She now models for Toyota F1

[Captain VXR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCIOGlllGDw&feature=related

The best drifting,not even 4WD but FWD....Jean Ragnotti
Only rwds can drift. Fwds and 4wds can powerslide :)

[urabus-denoS2000]

Captain VXR,thanks ;)

Didnt see the difference

I have a few questions:

What is the most professional drift series (possibly not D1)

What are the best drifters and are they payed?

[Rollo]

Only rwds can drift.

Bollocks.

A drift is when the rear wheels slip at a faster rate at a greater angle than the front wheels, more commonly referred to as oversteer. Drifting as "sport" is the deliberate induction of this for technique.

Moreover the Scandinavian Flick which probably legitimised drifting as a technique almost certainly was developed if not perfected when rallying went professional. One of the earliest exponents of drifting was Timo Mäkinen whom I should point our drove the Mini and the Escort, neither of which were RWD.

Tiff explains how to drift a FWD car here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbr1K3uuOPk

[MrJan]

Just out of interest is the drift scene in this country regulated at all? Just that most stuff falls under the banner of the MSA and so has to comply with a whole lot of rules, was wondering if the same sort of rules are used in drifting?

Also whats the sort of entry level? If I wanted to go drifting this year how much could I get a cheap motor for that would be capable?

[BDunnell]

One of the earliest exponents of drifting was Timo Mäkinen whom I should point our drove the Mini and the Escort, neither of which were RWD.

The Escort was most certainly RWD when Makinen drove them.

[Rollo]

At international level he used the Escort RS1600 which was a BDA but at national level he won the Finnish National Championship not with a BDA but a 105 FVA, which most certainly was front wheel drive.

Aside: The chap also won the '69 Round Britain Powerboat Trophy.

[BDunnell]

I was under the distinct impression that no Escorts were front-wheel-drive before the MkIII.

[Rollo]

The 1.1 and the 1.3 were both FWD. The engines carried over from the Anglia which was going to be the name for the MkI but the boffins at Dagenham wanted a break from the outgoing model.

[schmenke]

...A drift is when the rear wheels slip at a faster rate at a greater angle than the front wheels, more commonly referred to as oversteer. Drifting as "sport" is the deliberate induction of this for technique.
...

In the depths of our snowy winters I, at times, like to induce "drift" in my FWD POS using the hand brake :D

[Daniel]

http://doristars.com/v-web/gallery/edc22008/ESC_0013
The (ex)official girl of the European Drift Championship
She now models for Toyota F1

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth :burp:

It just isn't motorsport. You posted a video of a cars going down a "narrow" road which in real terms is bloody wife. Why don't these jokers taken themselves the hell down to Monaco and try to drift their way round some narrow roads on the Col de Turini when the road is icy and then we'll see who's got big balls.

If you like oversteer and lets be honest who doesn't then go onto Youtube and search for "Group F Rally" and enjoy some quality motorsport which is far more spectacular than a bunch of sk8ter boi motorsport wannabees going slower than the need to around corners. Rallycross is also great to watch too.

As others have said drifting is kind of OK to watch for a few minutes but then you start to think, hmmmm I reckon a 200bhp touring car could be faster than the 500bhp+ monsters they're driving and I reckon if they weren't sliding around needlessly they'd be faster and so on till you realise that this is more of an artform than a sport like synchronised swimming, diving, figure skating and so on and so forth than a sport like speed skating, ski jumping, rallying or racing.

[wedge]

Tiff explains how to drift a FWD car here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbr1K3uuOPk

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Tiff was describing lift-off oversteer which is not drifting.

Drifting - you control the slide and keep the rear hanging loose with the throttle and steering hence its other name powersliding because you keep the slide with the throttle.

In a FWD car when the rear slides, you correct the car with the throttle and steering but it will still naturally understeer back into line. If you've paid attention to FWD Touring Cars you'll know that when the rear steps out at an acute angle they slam the throttle (front tyres usually spinning and smoking) and the rear will instantly back into line.

[Easy Drifter]

Excuse the old f--t here but drifting in the true sense, not power sliding, has been around a long time. There are pictures of it in the 30's. There is a famous picture, by Kemalanski (spelling?) of Fangio in a 250F Maserati at Rheims or Rouen (I forget which) in a perfect 4 wheel drift at 150 MPH. No smoke but you just have to look at the angle of the car and wheels to the verge. All 4 wheels are pointed in the same direction.
I used to 4 wheel drift at both Mosport and Harewood in the 60's at up to 135 mph. I could do it at other tracks but not as well.
Anybody ever watch sprint cars on dirt? Especially non winged ones.
1200 lbs, front engine, rwd, 850hp on 1/4 to 5/8 mile ovals with 20 plus other cars around you. Now that is power sliding, drifting and steering with your throttle (and everything else). Speeds up to 130 mph on dirt.

[wedge]

It just isn't motorsport. You posted a video of a cars going down a "narrow" road which in real terms is bloody wife. Why don't these jokers taken themselves the hell down to Monaco and try to drift their way round some narrow roads on the Col de Turini when the road is icy and then we'll see who's got big balls.

If you like oversteer and lets be honest who doesn't then go onto Youtube and search for "Group F Rally" and enjoy some quality motorsport which is far more spectacular than a bunch of sk8ter boi motorsport wannabees going slower than the need to around corners. Rallycross is also great to watch too.

As others have said drifting is kind of OK to watch for a few minutes but then you start to think, hmmmm I reckon a 200bhp touring car could be faster than the 500bhp+ monsters they're driving and I reckon if they weren't sliding around needlessly they'd be faster and so on till you realise that this is more of an artform than a sport like synchronised swimming, diving, figure skating and so on and so forth than a sport like speed skating, ski jumping, rallying or racing.

Drifting started off on the mountain passes in Japan and turned into a spectator sport from illegal street racing hence they run on legitimate race tracks.

Same with drag racing. Started off from illegal street racing Hot Rods into a legitimate sport.

Rallying started off as test of endurance and slowly turned into a spectator sport. Thank you Max Mosley!

Also in rallying - ditto, you generally see cars sliding round the tight corners on a dry asphalt track. Your primary goal is time and sliding round a medium speed curve doesn't help things whereas in drifting you have stay ahead/keep up with you opponent and perform slides.

And yes, touring cars will beat drift cars on a conventional race track because a lot of drift cars are modified deliberately for drifting - in the same way that a heavy NASCAR sucks on a road course because its designed to race round ovals and safely crash into concrete walls.

[wedge]

Excuse the old f--t here but drifting in the true sense, not power sliding, has been around a long time. There are pictures of it in the 30's. There is a famous picture, by Kemalanski (spelling?) of Fangio in a 250F Maserati at Rheims or Rouen (I forget which) in a perfect 4 wheel drift at 150 MPH. No smoke but you just have to look at the angle of the car and wheels to the verge. All 4 wheels are pointed in the same direction.
I used to 4 wheel drift at both Mosport and Harewood in the 60's at up to 135 mph.

That was when car technology was inferior and the way to be quick was to 4 wheel drift.

Wings/aero, chassis, tyres - technology for better handling and therefore grip.

Martin Brundle recently replied at Autosport International that although we love to see race cars slide round today you can't undo what the engineers have learnt.


Anybody ever watch sprint cars on dirt? Especially non winged ones.
1200 lbs, front engine, rwd, 850hp on 1/4 to 5/8 mile ovals with 20 plus other cars around you. Now that is power sliding, drifting and steering with your throttle (and everything else). Speeds up to 130 mph on dirt.

.....and they roughly have the same power/weight ratio as F1 cars.

Oh yes! One of my favourite memories of being a teen in a family being stuck on a guided tour of America, at a random Holiday Inn in the middle of West Virgina in the middle of nowhere and staying up to watch the Pontiac 400 Richmond night race followed by tape delay sprintcars night racing. I thought I died on gone to heaven!

[Easy Drifter]

I concur Wedge. I was just pointing out true drifting has been around a long time and that it is not something new.
I am not knocking what is called 'drifting' and it takes skill but I am still going to call it power sliding!

[Rollo]

Sorry, but you're wrong.
Tiff was describing lift-off oversteer which is not drifting.


Please provide the source for your supposition. As the FIA don't have a sanctioned competition, and as D1GP do not actually provide a definition within their official rule book, then if you are going to prove me wrong then I should like to know what your authority is - or else, your theory is baseless.
http://www.d1gp.com/v2/docs/2009_D1USA_Rulebook.pdf

Regulation 33 is the nearest thing that D1GP gets to a definition where they say how it's to be judged but not what a drift actually is - and if the regulators themselves don't even have a regulation then that's pretty poxy.

[Captain VXR]

Just out of interest is the drift scene in this country regulated at all? Just that most stuff falls under the banner of the MSA and so has to comply with a whole lot of rules, was wondering if the same sort of rules are used in drifting?

Also whats the sort of entry level? If I wanted to go drifting this year how much could I get a cheap motor for that would be capable?

They have to run full roll cages, fia buckets + harnesses, wear fireproof clothing etc
Try http://www.driftworks.com/forum for cheap rwd cars and lots of drift advice etc (there's lots if you search on there) :)

[Captain VXR]

Please provide the source for your supposition. As the FIA don't have a sanctioned competition, and as D1GP do not actually provide a definition within their official rule book, then if you are going to prove me wrong then I should like to know what your authority is - or else, your theory is baseless.
http://www.d1gp.com/v2/docs/2009_D1USA_Rulebook.pdf

Regulation 33 is the nearest thing that D1GP gets to a definition where they say how it's to be judged but not what a drift actually is - and if the regulators themselves don't even have a regulation then that's pretty poxy.
http://www.europeandriftchampionship.eu/Drifting%20FAQ.html

[MrJan]

They have to run full roll cages, fia buckets + harnesses, wear fireproof clothing etc
Try http://www.driftworks.com/forum for cheap rwd cars and lots of drift advice etc (there's lots if you search on there) :)

But drifting isn't governed by the MSA? I mean surely that's a test of whether it's a motorsport or not, if the Motor Sport Association doesn't accept it then we aren't quite there yet (not saying that it won't be accepted by the MSA in the future though).

Reletively cheap stuff for sale though, seems fairly accesible on a 'budget' (from my experience nothing involving cars is ever truly cheap though)

[wedge]

Please provide the source for your supposition. As the FIA don't have a sanctioned competition, and as D1GP do not actually provide a definition within their official rule book, then if you are going to prove me wrong then I should like to know what your authority is - or else, your theory is baseless.
http://www.d1gp.com/v2/docs/2009_D1USA_Rulebook.pdf

Regulation 33 is the nearest thing that D1GP gets to a definition where they say how it's to be judged but not what a drift actually is - and if the regulators themselves don't even have a regulation then that's pretty poxy.

Don't need to.

You're judged on well you perform a slide. Powersliding in a RWD (bias) is far more effective than lift-off oversteer because you can keep the car sliding longer than you would in FWD. That's why drifting events are predominantly RWD.

[MrJan]

Don't need to.

You're judged on well you perform a slide. Powersliding in a RWD (bias) is far more effective than lift-off oversteer because you can keep the car sliding longer than you would in FWD. That's why drifting events are predominantly RWD.

Which is a bit out of order really. There should be classes as there are plenty of people who can put a FWD car into a slide and control it. Actually thinking about it FWD cars should be judged alongside RWD, just given extra points for complexity.

[Daniel]

Which is a bit out of order really. There should be classes as there are plenty of people who can put a FWD car into a slide and control it. Actually thinking about it FWD cars should be judged alongside RWD, just given extra points for complexity.

Yeah but then it would require real skill and the guys who can just mash the loud pedal and give a bit of opposite lock would be outclassed :) RWD is comparitively easy to drive compared to FWD.

[Dave B]

In the brief time I was a Sierra owner I learned how to drift quite effortlessly, but I grew out of it when I was about 19.

[wedge]

Which is a bit out of order really. There should be classes as there are plenty of people who can put a FWD car into a slide and control it. Actually thinking about it FWD cars should be judged alongside RWD, just given extra points for complexity.

Not really.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that RWD is far more rewarding than FWD.

FWD you flick it to oversteer, press the throttle and it will understeer back into line.

RWD you flick it but you want to keep the rears sliding, rear wheels spinning and smoking and at an acute angle as possible.

Drifting is a spectacle. Same as TV. What would you rather see on Top Gear? Honda Type Rs oversteer-understeer or V8 muscle cars powersliding? Which is more entertaining?

[MrJan]

Not really.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that RWD is far more rewarding than FWD.

FWD you flick it to oversteer, press the throttle and it will understeer back into line.

RWD you flick it but you want to keep the rears sliding, rear wheels spinning and smoking and at an acute angle as possible.

Drifting is a spectacle. Same as TV. What would you rather see on Top Gear? Honda Type Rs oversteer-understeer or V8 muscle cars powersliding? Which is more entertaining?

I know what is more entertaining but if drifting is a sport then it should reward difficulty. FWD can be drifted by controlling the throttle, it's just very difficult to do. A RWD can be shot out of a drift too, it just involves taking your foot off the pedal and letting it snap back.

[Glen 320]

Correct me if i'am wrong rollo but I have never seen a front wheel drive mark 1 escort!

[ChrisS]

I know what is more entertaining but if drifting is a sport then it should reward difficulty.

What motorsport rewards a driver for driving a car with a disadvantage? a lot have rules in place to make sure all cars entering are of similar configuration

[MrJan]

What motorsport rewards a driver for driving a car with a disadvantage? a lot have rules in place to make sure all cars entering are of similar configuration

A lot of different races use a handicap system though which is effectively what this would do.

[wedge]

I know what is more entertaining but if drifting is a sport then it should reward difficulty. FWD can be drifted by controlling the throttle, it's just very difficult to do.

I'm not that into the drifting scene but I wouldn't be surprised if there's snobbery within the scene - purists who think RWD powerslides and smoking rear tyres is far better than glorified handbrake turns in FWD.

[Rollo]

Don't need to.

You're judged on well you perform a slide.

Without a standard or even a regulation, then it comes purely down to the opinions of a judging panel. What you have in effect done is prove that Drifting as a "sport" is in the same category as Strictly Come Dancing or the Eurovision Song Contest. This very thread entitled is "For those sceptical of drifting" and if anything has justified my scepticism.



What would you rather see on Top Gear? Honda Type Rs oversteer-understeer or V8 muscle cars powersliding? Which is more entertaining?

A Fiesta oversteer-understeering is more entertaining than a V8 muscle car powersliding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNcBtdNAPv4&feature=related

Obviously Honda Type Rs oversteer-understeering - Duh. I might actually want one of those.

[MrJan]

Without a standard or even a regulation, then it comes purely down to the opinions of a judging panel. What you have in effect done is prove that Drifting as a "sport" is in the same category as Strictly Come Dancing or the Eurovision Song Contest. This very thread entitled is "For those sceptical of drifting" and if anything has justified my scepticism.

Which is the point I made earlier but with Ice Dancing as the example. I'm open to drifting but the question was posed as 'do you think it's a sport?' and after giving an answer people have attempted to tell me that I'm wrong :S

[wedge]

Without a standard or even a regulation, then it comes purely down to the opinions of a judging panel. What you have in effect done is prove that Drifting as a "sport" is in the same category as Strictly Come Dancing or the Eurovision Song Contest.

What about boxing? Is that no longer a sport after no-one is knocked down after 12 rounds?

Sadly I had to resort to Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_(motorsport)


Drifting competitions are judged based on line, angle, speed, and show factor. Line involves taking the correct line, which is usually announced beforehand by judges. The show factor is based on multiple things, such as the amount of smoke, how close the car is to the wall, and the crowd's reaction. Angle is the angle of a car in a drift, Speed is the speed entering a turn, the speed through a turn, and the speed exiting the turn; faster is better.

The judging takes place on just a small part of the circuit, a few linking corners that provide good viewing, and opportunities for drifting. The rest of the circuit is irrelevant, except as it pertains to controlling the temperature of the tires and setting the car up for the first judged corner. In the tandem passes, the lead driver often feints his or her entry to the first corner to upset the chase driver.

There are typically two sessions, a qualifying/practice session, and a final session. In the qualifying sessions, referred as Tansou (speed run), drifters get individual passes in front of judges (who may or may not be the final judges) to try and make the final 16. This is often on the day preceding the final.

The finals are tandem passes, referred as Tsuiso (chase attack). Drivers are paired off, and each heat comprises two passes, with each driver taking a turn to lead. The best of the 8 heats go to the next 4, to the next 2, to the final. The passes are judged as explained above, however there are some provisos such as:

* Overtaking the lead car under drift conditions almost always wins that pass.
* Overtaking the lead car under grip conditions automatically forfeits that pass.
* Spinning forfeits that pass, unless the other driver also spins.
* Increasing the lead under drift conditions helps to win that pass.
* Maintaining a close gap while chasing under drift conditions helps to win that pass.

Points are awarded for each pass, and usually one driver prevails. Sometimes the judges cannot agree, or cannot decide, or a crowd vocally disagrees with the judge's decision. In such cases more passes may be run until a winner is produced. Sometimes mechanical failure determines the battle's outcome, either during or preceding a heat. If a car cannot enter a tandem battle, the remaining entrant (who automatically advances) will give a solo demonstration pass. In the event of apparently close or tied runs, crowds often demonstrate their desire for another run with chants of 'one more time'.[4]

There is some regional variation, for example in Australia, the chase car is judged on how accurately it mimics the drift of the lead car, as opposed to being judged on its own merit. Other variations of the tansou/tsuiso and the tansou only method is the multi car group judging, seen in the Drift Tengoku videos where the four car team is judged in groups.

[Captain VXR]

Which is a bit out of order really. There should be classes as there are plenty of people who can put a FWD car into a slide and control it. Actually thinking about it FWD cars should be judged alongside RWD, just given extra points for complexity.

You wouldn't get the nice tyre smoke or noise - one is precision driving (rwd) and the other iss simply riding the hand brake (fwd)
Examples:
rwd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liDnyVRRcxc
fwd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQMQkMvRG3I
Also, if they allowed fwds in UK drifting, Dave and the 'Nova Krooz Krew' would want to join in
There's no reason why a fwd cannot be rwd converted eg:
http://www.passionford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200185

[leopard]

Also, if they allowed fwds in UK drifting, Dave and the 'Nova Krooz Krew' would want to join in
There's no reason why a fwd cannot be rwd converted eg:
http://www.passionford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200185
Nice, unluckily ladies room is locked. ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drifting. In Canada we call it driving in WINTER. My old Rx7 had me sideways on every corner if the snow was right. Nothing like looking out the side windows to navigate eh?

[MrJan]

You wouldn't get the nice tyre smoke or noise - one is precision driving (rwd) and the other iss simply riding the hand brake (fwd)
Examples:
rwd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liDnyVRRcxc
fwd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQMQkMvRG3I
Also, if they allowed fwds in UK drifting, Dave and the 'Nova Krooz Krew' would want to join in
There's no reason why a fwd cannot be rwd converted eg:
http://www.passionford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200185

You can put a FWD car sideways well enough without the handbrake.

And I'm fairly sure that I was reading through a website the other day and it said that you aren't allowed to convert a FWD car to RWD for the purpose of drifting, although it might have been that you can't convert 4WD.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I used to race a Fwd Honda Civic in ice racing and we kicked the tail out with leftfoot braking but THAT really wasn't a drift. I don't think Fwd cars really "drift".

[vauxhall corsa]

i have seen drifting championships on tele and i think it's good to watch

[Captain VXR]

You can put a FWD car sideways well enough without the handbrake.

And I'm fairly sure that I was reading through a website the other day and it said that you aren't allowed to convert a FWD car to RWD for the purpose of drifting, although it might have been that you can't convert 4WD.

Yeah, its because its hard to regulate rwd convertions from a fwd. I personally think they should allow that but I don't make the rules.
They allow 4wd-rwd conversions as that's simply disconnecting the front driveshafts :)

[leopard]

Would it be economically applicable and have enough reliability to convert fwd to rwd, there are a lot of rwd in the market, just pick one of them.

[MrJan]

Would it be economically applicable and have enough reliability to convert fwd to rwd, there are a lot of rwd in the market, just pick one of them.

Lots of people do it in rallying. It's so you can have a small car like a Peugeot 205 or Ford Fiesta but with rear drive as there aren't that many RWD cars which are small.

[Captain VXR]

Lots of people do it in rallying. It's so you can have a small car like a Peugeot 205 or Ford Fiesta but with rear drive as there aren't that many RWD cars which are small.

How about a KP61 Toyota Starlet:
http://www.club4ag.com/pictures/contributions/12-2002/RUSSEL%20KP17764.jpg

[Captain VXR]

Without a standard or even a regulation, then it comes purely down to the opinions of a judging panel. What you have in effect done is prove that Drifting as a "sport" is in the same category as Strictly Come Dancing or the Eurovision Song Contest. This very thread entitled is "For those sceptical of drifting" and if anything has justified my scepticism.


http://www.driftbox.com/
It can be measured, and tyre smoke is something anyone can see for themselves :)
The cars also have to use the 'clipping points' such as the strategically placed cone in the video below to get the maximum points available :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86CwySLH9Q8

[MrJan]

How about a KP61 Toyota Starlet:
http://www.club4ag.com/pictures/contributions/12-2002/RUSSEL%20KP17764.jpg

I knew that there was a RWD Starlet which is why I said 'not many', can't actually think of any more beyond that one without going back a fairly long way.

[tannat]

I was curious about drifting-watched a few competitions on the SPEED channel and read the Wikipedia bit about it.

For certain the drivers have skill. To do what they do in the narrow confines of a drift track seems quite a challenge.

It’s really tough for me to call it a ‘sport’. The scoring seems a bit subjective.

Would a drift be scored the same over and over again regardless of the judge involved? I think not.


I believe Tanner Foust (drifter?) took Travis Pastrana’s (rallyer) at the Race of Champions. How did he do?

The interesting thing to do would be to see if one involved in drifting, where going over the limit is the rule, could perform well in a motorsport where being on the limit is the rule.

All the above being said I find the skills involved in drifting very impressive :up:

[Captain VXR]

I was curious about drifting-watched a few competitions on the SPEED channel and read the Wikipedia bit about it.

For certain the drivers have skill. To do what they do in the narrow confines of a drift track seems quite a challenge.

It’s really tough for me to call it a ‘sport’. The scoring seems a bit subjective.

Would a drift be scored the same over and over again regardless of the judge involved? I think not.


I believe Tanner Foust (drifter?) took Travis Pastrana’s (rallyer) at the Race of Champions. How did he do?

The interesting thing to do would be to see if one involved in drifting, where going over the limit is the rule, could perform well in a motorsport where being on the limit is the rule.

All the above being said I find the skills involved in drifting very impressive :up:
I think Pastrana beat either Jensen Button or David Coultard :up:

[Daniel]

I knew that there was a RWD Starlet which is why I said 'not many', can't actually think of any more beyond that one without going back a fairly long way.
There are also these Starlets which are rallied a lot in Finland.

http://www.rengaskanava.fi/mikakiracing/galleria_uurainen2006a.jpg