Looks like Volkswagon is serious

[MDS]

It appears from a number of sources that the IRL is looking at turbo charged four cylinder engine block for 2011, apparently in large part to suit the desires of Audi/Volkswagon.

According to the Indy Business Journal VW is talking with teams and could make an announcement in April. One of my friends whose involved with Long Beach said there's some talk of a possibly accomodating a "Major announcement" during the pre-race festivities Sunday, when it would be televised live on Verses.

I think VW is agreat fit for the IRL's demos, their price points line up with where most IRL fans are financially.

Check out the story here.
http://thescore.ibj.com/blogshell.asp?p=750

[anthonyvop]

It appears from a number of sources that the IRL is looking at turbo charged four cylinder engine block for 2011, apparently in large part to suit the desires of Audi/Volkswagon.

According to the Indy Business Journal VW is talking with teams and could make an announcement in April. One of my friends whose involved with Long Beach said there's some talk of a possibly accomodating a "Major announcement" during the pre-race festivities Sunday, when it would be televised live on Verses.
Told you that months ago.

I think VW is agreat fit for the IRL's demos, their price points line up with where most IRL fans are financially.

Don't tell that to those who think the future of Indycars is with front engined, pushrod V8 Roadsters.

[MDS]

Told you that months ago.

What is it with "I told you so on this board?" It's like there's a bunch of reporters posting all arguing over who got the scoop first. No one cares.

For the record I don't know where you've been posting VW to announce at Long Beach, but I didn't read it.


Don't tell that to those who think the future of Indycars is with front engined, pushrod V8 Roadsters.

Do we have to talk about stuff that will never happen?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Two manufacturers is only one more than one, but it's a whole different world. Now let's just hope Honda stays... :)

[Chamoo]

Two manufacturers is only one more than one, but it's a whole different world. Now let's just hope Honda stays... :)

I doubt Honda will go anywhere, they are the ones clamoring for the competition in AOWR.

[speeddurango]

Thank you for that piece of news, heard the rumors before, but with this news I get to know it is becoming more and more possible, thank you!

[El Libertador]

Turbos and (a little) competition. Sounds pretty good to me. Now we just need more than one chassis. But something's better than nothing so I see it as a positive step. Slightly OT, but does anyone know any details on Dallara's exclusivity deal? Is it just for 2011 or for many many years?

[Chamoo]

Turbos and (a little) competition. Sounds pretty good to me. Now we just need more than one chassis. But something's better than nothing so I see it as a positive step. Slightly OT, but does anyone know any details on Dallara's exclusivity deal? Is it just for 2011 or for many many years?

You would think it is for the next equipment cycle. The last one was supposed to last 3 years.

[dataman1]

Audi & VW both have 4 cylider TDI. Who knows?

[anthonyvop]

What is it with "I told you so on this board?" It's like there's a bunch of reporters posting all arguing over who got the scoop first. No one cares.

It seems like you do.

I doubt Honda will go anywhere, they are the ones clamoring for the competition in AOWR.

Dunno....they had competition in F1 and they left.

[Chamoo]

Dunno....they had competition in F1 and they left.

F1 also cost about $300 million more.

[nigelred5]

Audi & VW both have 4 cylider TDI. Who knows?

It's the same engine if you are refering to the 2.0 or hte earlier 1.9, but they only bring it here in VW's. VW is also talking about backing away from diesels.

I currently own both brands. I'd prefer to see the VW brand over Audi for a variety of reasons, but it would more or less maintain their basic racing history of open wheel VW's and Audi sportscars in N.A. I'm not aware of the Audi brand ever powering an open wheel car in North America and basically only the Palmer Audis in europe. Despite VW's attempts at moving the brand WAY too far up market from it's roots, it's still a mass market brand. Audi is marketed too far upscale for Indy IMHO, even though the image is definitely sporting oriented.

[vintage]

Audi is powering the new F2 cars.

[nigelred5]

Which is run by Jonathan Palmer :)

They are shooting around 500 Hp out of the 1.8T, they need another 200 or so from it for indycars.

Dunno....they had competition in F1 and they left.


F1 also cost about $300 million more.

Yes, but a lot of that is due to competition.

Does anybody seriously think that two manufacturers competing against each other doesn't result in rising costs?

Whichever branch of motorsport it is, when there are more than one engine supplier there is always a very high likelihood that the ones who start losing stop spending and leave.

Honda, Subaru, Suzuki, Kawasaki are recent examples.

[garyshell]

Does anybody seriously think that two manufacturers competing against each other doesn't result in rising costs?

Unfortunately, there are some under this misguided perception.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Two engine choices instead of one is better in the long run, whether people think it costs more or not. At some point, if the IRL is to be a serious player in the world of motorsports they have to have someone to play in the sandbox with Honda.

Two engine choices instead of one is better in the long run, whether people think it costs more or not. At some point, if the IRL is to be a serious player in the world of motorsports they have to have someone to play in the sandbox with Honda.

Yes, Mark, I agree....but realistically is there much of a chance of Honda actually being willing or able to justify competition-levels of expenditure at the moment?

Given the current economic downturn, I'd give it one season of competition with Volkswagen before Honda quit. Then it's back to square one, since no other manufacturers are going to green-light a project either.

[Jag_Warrior]

Given the current economic downturn, I'd give it one season of competition with Volkswagen before Honda quit. Then it's back to square one, since no other manufacturers are going to green-light a project either.

What does the current economic environment have to do with business decisions being speculated on for 2012? By 2012, given economic history, we will most likely be in the next economic cycle.

If Honda projects that the global automotive market is going to be no better by 2011 or 2012 than it is now, it would just cancel this project before it gets started. Why in the world would it invest upwards of $40 million to launch a project that would have a life of one year???

What does the current economic environment have to do with business decisions being speculated on for 2012? By 2012, given economic history, we will most likely be in the next economic cycle.

If Honda projects that the global automotive market is going to be no better by 2011 or 2012 than it is now, it would just cancel this project before it gets started. Why in the world would it invest upwards of $40 million to launch a project that would have a life of one year???

Honda cancelled it's F1 project at the drop of a hat. Having invested $370million annually for 3 years plus. It had already invested heavily in its 2009 challenge before it pulled out.

That shows that manufacturers will pull the plug despite having already invested.

Subaru invested in the new WRC Impreza which ran for less than one year.

When there is competition, then 90% of the time, even if only between two manufacturers, one manufacturer loses out. One manufacturer can no longer justify spending money just to be beaten.

That's why having manufacturers competing against each other is a double-edged sword.

Look at F1, look at WRC.

[Jag_Warrior]

Honda cancelled it's F1 project at the drop of a hat. Having invested $370million annually for 3 years plus. It had already invested heavily in its 2009 challenge before it pulled out.

That shows that manufacturers will pull the plug despite having already invested.


That shows that when companies are suffering an extreme downturn in revenue and sales, they will cut whatever expenditures they deem expendable. Honda simply cut its losses on what had become a rather mature and unsuccessful F1 adventure... at a time when the automotive market had gone into severe decline. Nothing more. Nothing less. Honda, Subaru, Porsche and Audi all play by the same economic rules. Toyota suspended construction of an assembly plant in Mississippi... and it was 90% complete. Would the company have invested such a sum of capital into a project if it had been known that there was a distinct possibility that the global market was going to tank, and they'd be stuck with an empty building with no tooling within? Of course not. But these are not normal business conditions for Toyota... or any other company. What we are seeing now are the exceptions... not indications that companies are willing to make needless R&D and marketing investments only to cut them short of the projected life - especially one year in.



When there is competition, then 90% of the time, even if only between two manufacturers, one manufacturer loses out. One manufacturer can no longer justify spending money just to be beaten.

Any company employing more than five people, which has successfully been in business for five years plus would perform a risk analysis and that would certainly be taken into account. Again, no sane executive committee would greenlight a major expenditure TODAY, if leaving one year into the project would seem a distinct possibility.




That's why having manufacturers competing against each other is a double-edged sword.

Yes, it is. That has always been the case.

Yes, it is. That has always been the case.

Which is my point entirely. It was great for F1 when all the manufacturers joined. It's not such a rosy future now.

For those wishing to see a return to the halycon days of CART, with Ford, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota etc all competing....just be careful of what you wish for.

Or, as my fellow English wordsmith once wrote, all that glitters is not gold.

[DBell]

Which is my point entirely. It was great for F1 when all the manufacturers joined. It's not such a rosy future now.

For those wishing to see a return to the halycon days of CART, with Ford, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota etc all competing....just be careful of what you wish for.

Or, as my fellow English wordsmith once wrote, all that glitters is not gold.

So are you saying a spec series is better off? I would still rather have the problems of keeping manufacturers in the sport as F1 has now than trying to entice new ones to join like the IRL. A spec series may manage to survive, but they don't seem to be able thrive. A return to what CART had may bring on different problems, but my interest in AOW would certainly ramp up where as now my interest is hanging by thread.

[spiritone]

The question is not which how many engines there will be for the 2011 season, the question is how many teams will there be left that will be able to afford to buy, not only a new engine but a new chassis. For the champ car teams that are left (if there are any) this will be the third new chassis in 4 years. In this economy not a very bright picture.

The split has reduced this once proud series to a regional series on a 3rd rate tv station. TG won the battle but what has he won.

So are you saying a spec series is better off?

No, just that there is no certainty that a manufacturer battle will not result in a spec series by default, as has aleady happened.

[nigelred5]

The question is not which how many engines there will be for the 2011 season, the question is how many teams will there be left that will be able to afford to buy, not only a new engine but a new chassis. For the champ car teams that are left (if there are any) this will be the third new chassis in 4 years. In this economy not a very bright picture.

The split has reduced this once proud series to a regional series on a 3rd rate tv station. TG won the battle but what has he won.

I question is how many of the champcar teams actually bought the Dp01's vs. leasing them under the leasing option. From the bankruptcy it looked like KK and Champcar owned a whole lot of cars. Last year they got free engine leases, this year it's full fare $2M.

So glad to see that deal panned out to a full field of 28 cars. Now we see that Indycar was in little better shape than champcar. I guess we'll at least have some sort of a 2009 season.

[Chamoo]

Let's just see this as a positive. Hopefully things will work out, and maybe we will get surprised by Alfa coming on as well. Maybe TG has some tricks up his sleeve.

[chuck34]

I still say they need to go back to the "old" IRL engine rules. You buy parts from an approved list, then it was Chevy and Infinity, now it'll be VW and Honda. Then you build your own engine. Sure Penske, Ganassi, et al will dominate, but they do already so what will change? The little guy can build his own engine for about half of what he can lease one for. And everybody always thinks they have a better way of doing things so they'll try like heck to beat those big names. And sometimes they'll succeed. Isn't that what we all want to see?

[Jag_Warrior]

I still say they need to go back to the "old" IRL engine rules. You buy parts from an approved list, then it was Chevy and Infinity, now it'll be VW and Honda. Then you build your own engine. Sure Penske, Ganassi, et al will dominate, but they do already so what will change? The little guy can build his own engine for about half of what he can lease one for. And everybody always thinks they have a better way of doing things so they'll try like heck to beat those big names. And sometimes they'll succeed. Isn't that what we all want to see?

That puts it closer to the NASCAR or Grand Am DP model. And while people can shoot all the darts they want at Grand Am for ugly cars in the prototype category, or this & that, personally I like their approach to engines and managing manufacturers. While the IRL and CCWS continually stumbled and struggled in this regard, Grand Am has made this area of the series work very well.

How many manufacturers are giving some level of support to Grand Am in DP now? Ford, Porsche, BMW, Lexus/Toyota, Pontiac/Chevy... not bad, IMO.

Whether anyone has an interest in that model for the IRL I have no idea.

[garyshell]

An "update" from the Associated Press:


Feb 3, 1:16 PM (ET)

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -Indy Racing League officials say five engine manufacturers are still in competition to provide new engines for the IRL.

The companies still in discussions with the league are Honda, Audi, Fiat, Porsche and Volkswagen. Honda has been the sole supplier of Indy V8 engines since 2006. New specifications are not expected to be finalized for several months and would not be used in IndyCars until at least 2011.

The most significant change could be the addition of turbochargers to normally aspirated engines, which has become the IRL's norm over the past decade. Series officials have held three round-table meetings over the past six months with chassis, tire and other manufacturers.

[MDS]

Here's the officiall press release. Supposedly five companies, but at most its technically four since Audi and VW are the same corporation. Again, I hear the reason it's a four cylinder is because of VW and the rest are kinda along for the ride.


Indy Racing League officials and representatives from Honda Performance Development, Audi, Fiat Powertrain Technologies, Porsche and Volkswagen have been guided by the "Three Es" - efficient, environmentally responsible and economics - as they continue to participate in the IndyCar Series Automotive Manufacturers Roundtables.
Through this collective process, the IndyCar Series will continue to work with the manufacturers and six specialty race engine design companies in refining these engine specifications for implementation as early as the 2011 season:
● 4-stroke engines with reciprocating pistons
● Engine capacity not to exceed 2.0 liters
● Dual-overhead cam shaft with 4 valves per cylinder
● Single turbo charger systems will be permitted
● Direct injection systems will be permitted
● Continue the league's leadership position with the use of alternative fuels
● Engine life between rebuilds of 3,750 miles
● Five-year sealed engine homologation process that will define areas with possible annual updates
● Cost containment engine lease ceiling that is applicable to all participants
The series' new engine architecture aligns with the direction being taken by automotive manufacturers around the world as they strive for more efficient and environmentally-responsible smaller displacement engines. It also will allow cost-effective team participation while allowing engine manufacturers flexibility in up-tuning and/or down-tuning the engine for possible use in other forms of motorsports.
Specifications are expected to be finalized in the next several months.
Three manufacturer roundtable meetings, attended by senior executives from some of the world's most prestigious automotive brands, have been held since June 2008. The format was groundbreaking -- designed to solicit open discussion among attendees as to what the manufacturers' goals and desires were for motorsports involvement. Honda Indy V-8s have been the series' sole powerplant since 2006.
"This process was designed to showcase the league's position as an innovator and bring relevance to the forefront for the manufacturers," said Terry Angstadt, president of the commercial division for the Indy Racing League. "What we have found in the ensuing months during the economic downturn is that the IndyCar Series has really hit on the relevance point with the manufacturers and quite possibly helped the motorsports industry usher in a new era of responsible cost containment,performance standard and engine development."
The meetings also have included input from Firestone, the exclusive tire supplier to the IndyCar Series, and chassis supplier Dallara. In addition to the engine specifications, the IndyCar Series has been investigating innovative ways to partner its teams with the manufacturers.
"IndyCar has done an extremely thorough job at examining all the future technical considerations that automotive brands are faced with," said Paolo Martinelli, vice president of Fiat Powertrain Technologies. "Working in concert with my peers to help define the next generation of IndyCars has been an enlightening and productive process that will likely have positive connections to other global motorsports."

[Jag_Warrior]

Interesting claim by the IRL. I read a month or two ago that Porsche saw nothing on the table for them to enter the IRL. Possibly something has changed? Or the term "discussions" is being used rather broadly.

But anyway, does anyone remember the last time that a parent company entered two nameplates or divisions in one series? GM had both Chevy and Pontiac in NASCAR for a time. And back in the 70's, I believe Chrysler ran both the Dodge and Plymouth brands. In Trans Am, did FoMoCo run both Ford and Mercury? I can't recall. I know Grand Am allows multiple branding of the same engine: Toyota/Lexus, Chevy/Pontiac/Cadillac, etc.

But I question, in today's climate, whether it's realistic to think that Audi and Volkswagen (and Porsche, for that matter) would seriously be in these discussions as different entities - except possibly to take three design proposals to get to one engine.

Time will tell...

[ykiki]

Interesting claim by the IRL. I read a month or two ago that Porsche saw nothing on the table for them to enter the IRL. Possibly something has changed? Or the term "discussions" is being used rather broadly.

But anyway, does anyone remember the last time that a parent company entered two nameplates or divisions in one series? GM had both Chevy and Pontiac in NASCAR for a time. And back in the 70's, I believe Chrysler ran both the Dodge and Plymouth brands. In Trans Am, did FoMoCo run both Ford and Mercury? I can't recall. I know Grand Am allows multiple branding of the same engine: Toyota/Lexus, Chevy/Pontiac/Cadillac, etc.

But I question, in today's climate, whether it's realistic to think that Audi and Volkswagen (and Porsche, for that matter) would seriously be in these discussions as different entities - except possibly to take three design proposals to get to one engine.

Time will tell...

In the 90s, wouldn't we see Chevy & Buick in the I500?

[DBell]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-next-generation-engine-summit-held-in-indy/indycar-next-generation-engine-summit-held-in-indy

Still some hope for manufacturers joining it looks like. Even Porsche apperently despite being quoted in Autoweek saying they were out. I could see either them or Volkswagon joining, but not both as they are essentially part of the same company.

[Bob Riebe]

In the glory days of TransAm it was Ford and Mercury; Plymouth and Dodge; Chevy and Pontiac.
Back in those days, especially GM, the makes were totally separate entities in racing.
They shared only what they were forced to share.
It was not badge racing as it is now.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If they can make an engine formula policed similar to Grand Am's then I am all for it. Jag is right. The engines in Grand AM are different in layout (Flat 6's vs three versions of v-8's) and yet most engines can win if the chassis is tuned right. Add in a couple of chassis layouts in the IRL and I think you have the formula....

[FormerFF]

In the April issue of "Excellence", there is an interview with Wolfgang Duerheimer, head of R & D at Porsche. Here's his answer to the question, "What are your thoughts about Indy?"

"Indycar is a very important series for the U. S. market. Roger [Penske] has been competing for a long time and we are very good friends with Roger, so we are also of course interested in Indycar. But we have clearly defined our motorsports pyramid. The ALMS, with prototypes, is better suited to meet the demands of our customers.

What we are evaluating now is a world motorsports racing engine concept since many rules at present are going to be rewritten. We think it would be successful to have one engine in several major series. It would make it far easier to go into different series because we wouldn't have to develop everything from scratch and teams would have a base engine. If you had only turbocharged, 2.X-liter four-cylinders, I think it would be a big opportunity for us. This is the way we are working, so we are involved in some round-table discussions."

[nigelred5]

But anyway, does anyone remember the last time that a parent company entered two nameplates or divisions in one series? GM had both Chevy and Pontiac in NASCAR for a time.
dTime will tell...

GM actually had 2 corporate divisions and actual 4 brands in NASCAR at one time and two in Indycars. Chevrolet, Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac in NASCAR and Chevy and Buick in Indycars, all in the mid 80's. They also had all 4 in NHRA, and 2 of the 4 in IMSA (Chevy and Oldsmobile).

[nigelred5]

If they can make an engine formula policed similar to Grand Am's then I am all for it. Jag is right. The engines in Grand AM are different in layout (Flat 6's vs three versions of v-8's) and yet most engines can win if the chassis is tuned right. Add in a couple of chassis layouts in the IRL and I think you have the formula....

I totally agree. That's been an area where sportscars have long had a better arrngement in my mind.

[Chamoo]

I totally agree. That's been an area where sportscars have long had a better arrngement in my mind.

Multiple Engines, multiple chassis manufacturers, and multiple tires (optional addition) are needed to make this series gain interest.

[philipbain]

I saw on Autosport that "5 manufacturers in talks with IRL" but when you look its actually 3, as Audi, VW and Porsche are all under the same umbrella now since Porsche screwed every hedge fund out of billions by aquiring VW-Audi Group when they didnt see it coming, its just that they havnt decided which brand they will use should they enter the IRL, or interestingly they could produce the same engine under 2 different brands though i'm doubtful as to what this would achieve.

[nigelred5]

I can hardly say no one saw it coming. It's been in the works for well over a year and IIRC, it's virtually required they take control under German law. Porsche timed it well.

I still maintain if it happens, it will be VW, not Audi, but the actual formula chosen may impact that decision. There has been a lot of lobbying for common engine use in a variety of formulae which makes way too much sense. Grand Am and ALMS welcome just about all comers. If you can fit it in a legal chassis, they will equalize it. Indy should do the same.
As far as the brand , their racing history in North America has pretty much always been VW-open wheel, Porsche/Audi- sportscars. I have owned both brands for years and in my opinion, Indycar needs more mass appeal. I guess it depends on what the image of a VW is in people's mind. A 67 Beetle or cars like the R32, Scirocco IROC or a V10 turbodiesel monster of a SUV. If they ever want to rejuvenate the INDYCAR fanbase, I think they need to appeal to the the "Das Auto" crowd

[wedge]

I can definitely see VW in Indycars. VAG likes to to compete cost effective and promote relevant(ish) turbo (TSI/twin) charging technology.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I totally agree. That's been an area where sportscars have long had a better arrngement in my mind.

Yet people knock Grand AM...I don't get it. Any time you can allow different manufacturers to present their products and somehow give some form of parity and a chance to them all, it is the ideal.