Formula One almost lost Williams

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Hard times caught up with Frank Williams F-1 team and the board said...

"we had reached the point where futher borrowing is not acceptable to the board of this company".

Adam Parr, William's chief executive, said the scale of the team's borrowings in the past two years had reached the limit and that it would not have been able to borrow any more.

Williams is said to have gotten 14.5 million pounds from Ecclestone, money which it is said... had been set aside as an incentive for the team to sign the new Concorde agreement.


From todays article @ Fanatic.Com.Uk listing a variety of sources.

Shouldn't that be "Will lose Williams"?...........

"Sir Frank said: “We need to make a profit. To be successful and to be certain of staying in business, we need to be successful financially too. So, we need to make a profit every year. We’ve lost in the last two years, or three, I think, but we have the reserves and resource to manage that.”

Williams, whose team cost about £100m last season, a threefold increase in 10 years, made a £21.4m loss in 2007, on top of a £27.7m loss the previous year, and its net debt for 2007 tripled to £24.7m."

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/01/24/williams-gets-145m-from-ecclestone/

[ArrowsFA1]

Sometimes - and this is a view based on seeing various comments about Williams - I wonder if people want Williams to disappear.

Despite the comments from the team themselves - the latest being "we have the reserves and resource to manage that" - the rumours seem intent on dragging the team down.

Yes, as Autosport report (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72981), the team "were considered particularly vulnerable", but that's better than are.

[BDunnell]

Sometimes - and this is a view based on seeing various comments about Williams - I wonder if people want Williams to disappear.

Despite the comments from the team themselves - the latest being "we have the reserves and resource to manage that" - the rumours seem intent on dragging the team down.

Yes, as Autosport report (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72981), the team "were considered particularly vulnerable", but that's better than are.

I am very confused about the tenses in this thread. I also would have thought that Williams is precisely the sort of team the much-vaunted cost-cutting measures would be able to assist. This could be a useful acid test.

[wmcot]

I for one am pulling for Williams to make it and be successful again (and I am a Ferrari fan.) Williams is precisely what F1 is all about - hard work leading to success and then hanging in there when times get tough.

Let's hope their cycle turns around and they begin to get great results (perhaps they will be the team to get KERS right or they will have the best aero design for the new rules!)

[ArrowsFA1]

I am very confused about the tenses in this thread. I also would have thought that Williams is precisely the sort of team the much-vaunted cost-cutting measures would be able to assist.
Which is what Williams have said they have done.

I for one am pulling for Williams to make it and be successful again (and I am a Ferrari fan.) Williams is precisely what F1 is all about - hard work leading to success and then hanging in there when times get tough.
:up:

[Dave B]

Ironically, Williams' unwillingness to sell out to a manufacturer could be the one thing that saves them if there's a mass exodus of carmakers over the next few years.

There's still a hell of a lot of talent at the team, and they know how to win races and championships, so there's no reason to think they can't be successfull again in the future.

[Marshall]

I think the testing ban might work in their favor...they always seem to have a solid car at the start of the season but fell behind teams with larger testing budgets as the season progressed.

Either way, if they ever leave F1, it will be tragic.

[wedge]

I think the testing ban might work in their favor...they always seem to have a solid car at the start of the season but fell behind teams with larger testing budgets as the season progressed.

Either way, if they ever leave F1, it will be tragic.

It's their aero department that needs looking at. The mechanical grip of the car has been traditionally good - their performances at Monaco is a good indication.

[RJL25]

I wonder how much longer Williams will put up with Sam Michael as technical director... they appeared to lose their edge when he took over, and the team appears to have been on the slide ever since. Surely some talent will fall out of the Honda collapse (its gone, i highly doubt there will be a sale) so maybe Sir Frank needs to look there

[Nikki Katz]

While I think that they'll probably survive I'm not convinced that they're out of the woods yet. They don't appear to have any sponsorship at all for next year. I very much doubt that RBS will be back, at least not as a title sponsor; I'm a little surprised that they even still exist.

[fredman]

I hope you folks don't think that ONLY Williams has this problem - they ALL do - except for MAYBE Scuderia Ferrari, but at some point they must be, too.

I would not be shocked to lose ANY team except Ferrari, folks have to realize, at some point, enough is enough.

This is not your daddy's F1 motorsport anymore, it's not a sport anymore, it's a pure business, has been for 15 years, if not closer to 25-30.

When you have to RELY on outside money, it ceases to become a sport - no matter what 'sport' it is - and it becomes a business. This happened in F1 in the late-70's.

[Hawkmoon]

Williams have been dead men walking since BMW left. There are too many parallels between the current Williams team and teams like Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell. Once successful teams that fell on hard times and never recovered.

I will take no pleasure in Williams eventual demise and fervently hope that it never happens. But how long can they continue to roll around at the back? How long can their past glories continue to entice sponsors? The further they are removed from their last championship (and it's already 11 years), or even their last win (4 years), the less they are seen as a team worthy of big sponsor dollars.

The costing cutting will obviously have helped as they don't need those sponsor dollars to be as big but it won't help them get back to the front. Ferrari and McLaren have a sponsor pulling power that makes budgets almost irrelevant. They will continue to spend whatever it takes and Williams won't be able to match it.

A healthy F1 needs a healthy Williams so let's hope that the 2009 shakeup of the regs has allowed them to get lucky and get back in the winners circle.

[fredman]

I will take no pleasure in Williams eventual demise and fervently hope that it never happens. But how long can they continue to roll around at the back? How long can their past glories continue to entice sponsors? The further they are removed from their last championship (and it's already 11 years), or even their last win (4 years), the less they are seen as a team worthy of big sponsor dollars.

The costing cutting will obviously have helped as they don't need those sponsor dollars to be as big but it won't help them get back to the front. Ferrari and McLaren have a sponsor pulling power that makes budgets almost irrelevant. They will continue to spend whatever it takes and Williams won't be able to match it.



But then by this theory, ALL teams in F1 should fold except for Ferrari, McLaren and Renault.

[woody2goody]

Williams have been dead men walking since BMW left. There are too many parallels between the current Williams team and teams like Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell. Once successful teams that fell on hard times and never recovered.

I will take no pleasure in Williams eventual demise and fervently hope that it never happens. But how long can they continue to roll around at the back? How long can their past glories continue to entice sponsors? The further they are removed from their last championship (and it's already 11 years), or even their last win (4 years), the less they are seen as a team worthy of big sponsor dollars.

The costing cutting will obviously have helped as they don't need those sponsor dollars to be as big but it won't help them get back to the front. Ferrari and McLaren have a sponsor pulling power that makes budgets almost irrelevant. They will continue to spend whatever it takes and Williams won't be able to match it.

A healthy F1 needs a healthy Williams so let's hope that the 2009 shakeup of the regs has allowed them to get lucky and get back in the winners circle.

I think they've done very well in 06, 07 and 08 since the pull out of BMW. They've punched above their weight, got a fastest lap, some laps in the lead, a few podiums, yeah it's not much but considering '06, when we had a strong Renault, Ferrari, Honda and McLaren, and a big midfield excluding Midland and Super Aguri, it was a good effort, and you never know, maybe Webber could have won in Monaco...

It wasn't easy for them to fight even as well as they did in those years. Even with good drivers, Webber, Wurz, Rosberg, Nakajima, they have struggled, like someone said, due to the aero. If it was a street circuit championship Williams would have come second, third or fourth last year.

With any luck the new rules have saved them, and if anything made them stronger.

[RJL25]

they really need a new manufacturer to come on board with them to continue to be viable in the long term.

Only problem is, if your a new manufacturer looking in at the independant teams... you'd probably be more interested in going with Red Bull then Williams just at the minute

[wedge]

I wonder how much longer Williams will put up with Sam Michael as technical director... they appeared to lose their edge when he took over, and the team appears to have been on the slide ever since. Surely some talent will fall out of the Honda collapse (its gone, i highly doubt there will be a sale) so maybe Sir Frank needs to look there

That's partly why they hired Alan Permaine from Renault for 2007 onwards.

The factory personnel has grown so much that Technical Director role is almost far too much for one man. Another case in point is at RBR with Willis and Newey who are two very competent managers.

I think Sam Michaels is competent at what he does else he wouldn't have been promoted and given the time.


Williams have been dead men walking since BMW left. There are too many parallels between the current Williams team and teams like Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell. Once successful teams that fell on hard times and never recovered.

I will take no pleasure in Williams eventual demise and fervently hope that it never happens. But how long can they continue to roll around at the back? How long can their past glories continue to entice sponsors? The further they are removed from their last championship (and it's already 11 years), or even their last win (4 years), the less they are seen as a team worthy of big sponsor dollars.

The costing cutting will obviously have helped as they don't need those sponsor dollars to be as big but it won't help them get back to the front. Ferrari and McLaren have a sponsor pulling power that makes budgets almost irrelevant. They will continue to spend whatever it takes and Williams won't be able to match it.

A healthy F1 needs a healthy Williams so let's hope that the 2009 shakeup of the regs has allowed them to get lucky and get back in the winners circle.

I disagree entirely.

Williams have never fallen into the same descent as Jordan did who went backwards and ultimately lost sponsors, whereas Williams have have been consistantly been in the midfield but inconsistantly up and down the grid.

All it takes is good ingenuity. Just look what happened with Renault (2003, 2005), Benneton (1994) and McLaren (2005, 2007) after sudden rule changes. Sudden rule changes mean everyone starts on a clean slate so who knows Williams might top the midfield pack this year.

[Daniel]

Heh. F1 almost loses a manufacturer - meanwhile elsewhere in the last 5 years the WRC loses Peugeot, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Hyundai, Suzuki and Subaru and nothing (of note) gets done :D Nice to see where the FIA's priorities lie :) A

[ArrowsFA1]

It's worth remembering that Williams are building the car for the new Formula 2 (http://www.formulatwo.com/news/patrick-head-relishes-the-challenge.aspx) series, so their focus is not entirely on F1.

[RJL25]

Ferrari designed and built the new A1GP car AND engine last year. Didn’t seem to distract them.

In fact I would say that this is entirely necessary for Williams as it will mean more revenue coming in

[Hawkmoon]

I disagree entirely.

Williams have never fallen into the same descent as Jordan did who went backwards and ultimately lost sponsors, whereas Williams have have been consistantly been in the midfield but inconsistantly up and down the grid.

All it takes is good ingenuity. Just look what happened with Renault (2003, 2005), Benneton (1994) and McLaren (2005, 2007) after sudden rule changes. Sudden rule changes mean everyone starts on a clean slate so who knows Williams might top the midfield pack this year.

Those teams you mentioned were already heading in the right direction when the rules changed and weren't that far off the front to begin with. Williams haven't looked like winning a race in 4 years. The same guys who couldn't get it right before are designing the next car. Why are they any more likely to get it right now?

Give me one reason why Williams today are any different from Tyrrell in the mid 90's? There are none. Tyrrell faded away over the years. Sure they had the odd high point (Alesi, Phoenix '90 for example) but they never looked like getting back to the glory days.

Williams are starting from a higher point than Tyrrell were but I see very little difference in their situations. The 2009 regs aren't going to radically shake up the grid. The Ferrari and McLaren will still be at the front and Force India will still be at the back. Anybody hoping for Williams or Red Bull or even Toyota coming up with a championship winner whilst McLaren come up with a complete dud is deluding themselves.

[woody2goody]

Heh. F1 almost loses a manufacturer - meanwhile elsewhere in the last 5 years the WRC loses Peugeot, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Hyundai, Suzuki and Subaru and nothing (of note) gets done :D Nice to see where the FIA's priorities lie :) A

And Citroen for a couple of years let's not forget. I've lost a lot of interest in the WRC basically because of the manufacturer pull-outs.

It's affecting touring cars in a very similar way, although at least there's better competition in the BTCC and WTCC despite this.

[wedge]

Williams haven't looked like winning a race in 4 years. The same guys who couldn't get it right before are designing the next car. Why are they any more likely to get it right now?

Peaks and troughs.

Ferrari and McLaren made some bad cars by their standards in the mid 1990s. Look where they are now.

Williams had their ups and downs throughout the 80s and 90s. This decade also.


The 2009 regs aren't going to radically shake up the grid.

What happened to Ferrari after a radical shake up in 2005?

[jens]

I played with the idea of economic crisis helping Williams higher up the rankings back in December. Obviously it's a bit difficult to predict the future at the moment, but their potential fightback will depend on how many manufacturers will leave, which we don't know yet. From the other side - Team Willy needs to perform to convince sponsors to stay during these difficult times. Some influential companies still seem to have belief in Williams to invest money into them, but one might ask, for how long will it last.

So 2009 can be viewed as an important and crucial year for Williams. Rule changes, which emphasize their strengths + testing ban and cost cutting measures have created a brilliant chance to make an impression. Surely a championship challenge is not expected, but why not general impressive decent performances? - however anyone interprets them! The first tests at Algarve seemed to have a positive outcome, so we'll see. Although in 2008 Williams impressed during winter tests too only to fade away during the season...

Yes, there may seem to be some similarities between Williams and Lotus, Brabham and Tyrrell... but the future events may not take place in a linear way, F1 is pretty much at the crossroads and Williams can't be written off - at least not yet.

[K-Pu]

Heh. F1 almost loses a manufacturer - meanwhile elsewhere in the last 5 years the WRC loses Peugeot, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Hyundai, Suzuki and Subaru and nothing (of note) gets done :D Nice to see where the FIA's priorities lie :) A

Where´s the big money?

F1

How much money do they get with WRC?

Less than they get with F1

Outcome:

Rally fans all over the world lose part of the WRC, the FIA loses... maybe something (who knows?) and everything keeps on running.

[Daniel]

Where´s the big money?

F1

How much money do they get with WRC?

Less than they get with F1

Outcome:

Rally fans all over the world lose part of the WRC, the FIA loses... maybe something (who knows?) and everything keeps on running.

Nice to know rallying can count on you for understanding :mark:

It's not about money really. The FIA wouldn't have lost anything in not mismanaging the WRC........

[Hawkmoon]

Peaks and troughs.

Ferrari and McLaren made some bad cars by their standards in the mid 1990s. Look where they are now.

Williams had their ups and downs throughout the 80s and 90s. This decade also.



What happened to Ferrari after a radical shake up in 2005?

The difference between Ferrari/McLaren and Williams is that Ferrari and McLaren always had manufacturer backing and Williams don't. Ferrari also nabbed Schumacher and McLaren got Alonso and Hamilton. Who have Williams got? Rosberg and Nakajima. Big difference there.

The other problem is that when Ferrari and McLaren were struggling the cost of racing was much less than it is now. Ferrari were also the only manufacturer owned team. It's the exact opposite these days. Today you need manufacturer support beyond just an engine deal and you need a lot more money, even with the cost cutting for 2009.

As for 2005, Ferrari went from 1st to 3rd. That's not a big change. It appeared bigger because Ferrari were so dominant in 2004. 2009 could very well see a change in the pecking order but there's nothing to suggest that the 7th or 8th placed team is going to jump to the front and last years champions are going to struggle for points.

[Knock-on]

Nice to know rallying can count on you for understanding :mark:

It's not about money really. The FIA wouldn't have lost anything in not mismanaging the WRC........

I think most race fans can understand and sympathise with the issues in Rallying at the moment but the grim reality is that WRC does not have the "pull" of F1.

[Daniel]

I think most race fans can understand and sympathise with the issues in Rallying at the moment but the grim reality is that WRC does not have the "pull" of F1.

It used to before it got ****ed up by the FIA :)