Fiat looking at a partnership with Chrysler

[Jag_Warrior]

There have been anonymous Italians floating around the Auburn Hills headquarters for the better part of the past year. But it sounds like this may be more than just discussions about a one-off project or two.


Jan. 19 (Bloomberg) --
Fiat SpA is in talks with Chrysler LLC on a partnership that may include the Italian manufacturer taking a stake in the U.S. automaker, Automotive News Europe reported, citing unidentified people familiar with the matter.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0y0htkEVej4&refer=home

[steve_spackman]

There have been anonymous Italians floating around the Auburn Hills headquarters for the better part of the past year. But it sounds like this may be more than just discussions about a one-off project or two.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0y0htkEVej4&refer=home

am i right that Fiat have sold their cars in the US before?

[donKey jote]

Italians in Auburn Hills? :eek:
Too many Irish in Chicago now? :p

[anthonyvop]

am i right that Fiat have sold their cars in the US before?
Yes.
They left in the late 70's

[schmenke]

There have been anonymous Italians floating around the Auburn Hills headquarters for the better part of the past year. But it sounds like this may be more than just discussions about a one-off project or two.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0y0htkEVej4&refer=home

Didn't Ford try something similar about 60 years ago? :p :

[Azumanga Davo]

Italians in Auburn Hills? :eek:
Too many Irish in Chicago now? :p

Probably just Chrysler paying it's protection money... ;) Car companies break easy, matey boy! :D

[Daniel]

This site seems to sum it up quite well :)

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2009/cars/industry/01/chrysler/1901.html

Looks like it could actually be a good deal for Chrysler and Fiat.

[Hondo]

In the 70's, I had a red Fiat 850 Spider. It was a fun little car and great mini-skirt lure. However, parts were almost impossible to get and you had to stay on top of rust problems, especially on the underside. If you didn't mind making your own parts, like a piano wire throttle cable, it was ok for the $150 I paid for mine, used.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Fiat_850_Spider_(16.06.2007).jpg

[Daniel]

Well looks like the deal has been done :)

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2009/cars/industry/01/chrysler/2001_statement.html

I'm not sure what Fiat can do that Daimler couldn't.

I presume that a 35% stake in a company that is worth feck all cost feck all?

But if it cost nowt, then presumably Fiat won't lose anything?

[Hondo]

I'm not sure what Fiat can do that Daimler couldn't.

I presume that a 35% stake in a company that is worth feck all cost feck all?

But if it cost nowt, then presumably Fiat won't lose anything?

Fiat was popular in this country before. If they are past their reliability and rust problems, they could gain a large market here. Lot of people would like the idea of owning a cousin of Ferrari.

[Daniel]

I'm not sure what Fiat can do that Daimler couldn't.

I presume that a 35% stake in a company that is worth feck all cost feck all?

But if it cost nowt, then presumably Fiat won't lose anything?

Yep Fiat have paid nothing. All they will be giving Chrysler is platforms and powertrains which is where the advantage comes in for Chrysler. In the next 18 months or so Fiat has ultra efficient direct injection camless engines and efficient DDCT gearboxes coming online. Fiat also have some mild hybrids coming online in the near future as well.

Chrysler gets platforms to make viable cars on for people from the US who have realised that SUV's aren't really the way forward when the economy is forked, petrol prices will inevitably go back up. I think this is going to be a great deal if it works out.

[Daniel]

Fiat was popular in this country before. If they are past their reliability and rust problems, they could gain a large market here. Lot of people would like the idea of owning a cousin of Ferrari.

Fiat make some very good reliable cars here in Europe and they're also cheap as well which given the way things are in the US with regards to money and the cost of fuel I can only see smaller cars becoming more popular in the US. Given that Chrysler don't need to pay at all for these platforms this seems a pretty good deal for them.

[Roamy]

I would really welcome this! I did a turbo project on a Lancia Scorpion (euro version was montecarlo) WOW it was quite a ride. I owned several fiat 124's which were quite exciting to drive.

Mercedes made a good impact on Chrysler. I actually thing the cherokee limited is a better ride than the mercedes suv. the merc seems to have gotten too much detroit while the jeep got just the right amount of germany in it.

I sure Fiat could help the viper out!!

[Roamy]

Yep Fiat have paid nothing. All they will be giving Chrysler is platforms and powertrains which is where the advantage comes in for Chrysler. In the next 18 months or so Fiat has ultra efficient direct injection camless engines and efficient DDCT gearboxes coming online. Fiat also have some mild hybrids coming online in the near future as well.

Chrysler gets platforms to make viable cars on for people from the US who have realised that SUV's aren't really the way forward when the economy is forked, petrol prices will inevitably go back up. I think this is going to be a great deal if it works out.

Gee Daniel
A good informative post - new leaf for you?????

[Daniel]

Gee Daniel
A good informative post - new leaf for you?????

What can I say? I was up late last night watching Bill O'Reilly and I had an epiphany and I'm going to make this forum my "no spin" zone and teach these pinheads the truth about the Fiat group that the liberal media doesn't tell them ;) :p

This may interest you as well.
http://www.italiaspeed.com/2008/cars/others/fiat_powertrain/12/altavilla_interview/0412.html

[Dave B]

Fiat was popular in this country before. If they are past their reliability and rust problems, they could gain a large market here. Lot of people would like the idea of owning a cousin of Ferrari.
They do have an unfortunate image problem, not wholly unustified, but it's fair to say that their more recent cars have been well-designed and manufactured to a high standard.

[Hondo]

I'd probably try them again.

[Hondo]

I'd love to have a Triumph 1500 Spitfire with a modern engine and drivetrain.

http://triumphspitfire.nl/brochurepics/80spit04b.jpg

[steve_spackman]

What can I say? I was up late last night watching Bill O'Reilly and I had an epiphany and I'm going to make this forum my "no spin" zone and teach these pinheads the truth about the Fiat group that the liberal media doesn't tell them ;) :p

This may interest you as well.
http://www.italiaspeed.com/2008/cars/others/fiat_powertrain/12/altavilla_interview/0412.html

so could we see the likes of Citroen and co looking into the US market??

[tsarcasm]

delusions...but perhaps this will allow Fiat to use Chrysler's many closed factories to produce the wonderful Abarth 500 stateside also using the dealerships to distribute. And the next Viper will have more than one camshaft, DSG & TC, via Magneti-Marelli. right.....

[Jag_Warrior]

During the Senate confirmation hearings for Geithner, a Senator mentioned the Fiat/Chrysler alliance. The part that he didn't seem to be happy about had to do with the deal being conditioned on Chrysler receiving the next $3 billion in government funds. He also said something about Fiat being able to buy another 20% for $25 million by way of an option - where he got the $25 million figure from, I don't know..

This is a longer term deal. Very few details are out yet, but Chrysler is going to need a LOT more than a few platforms and $3 billion between now and 2012.


Joint products are unlikely to emerge before 2012 and “this could be an eternity to Chrysler, given its current financial state,” said Jonas, who rates Fiat “underweight.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFFqT2qToq00&refer=home

[Daniel]

During the Senate confirmation hearings for Geithner, a Senator mentioned the Fiat/Chrysler alliance. The part that he didn't seem to be happy about had to do with the deal being conditioned on Chrysler receiving the next $3 billion in government funds. He also said something about Fiat being able to buy another 20% for $25 million by way of an option - where he got the $25 million figure from, I don't know..

This is a longer term deal. Very few details are out yet, but Chrysler is going to need a LOT more than a few platforms and $3 billion between now and 2012.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFFqT2qToq00&refer=home

IMHO the timing bloomberg is giving is a joke. How long does it take to tool up a factory for production? Certainly not 3 years! I think 2010/2011 is certainly a better timeline to be working on.

I don't see Chrysler actually making it's own cars based on Fiat platforms at least until Fiat's next group of platforms come out. I see it more likely that Chrysler will get the Grande Punto and Bravo and brand them as Chryslers to get decent cars which will be attractive to buyers coming out the door ASAP.


Grande Punto
http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiat/Punto/fiat_grande_punto_101.jpg
Bravo
http://www.vospers.com/upload/vospers/images/new%20car/fiat-bravo-main.jpg

The cars are already developed, tested and have been in production for some time. Chrysler just need to retool, stick their badges on and send them out the door. I of course don't know how long it takes to retool, do quality control and so on but it can't be 3 years :mark:

Obligatory link to legendary Fiat advert :cool:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ccHB4HvaCyM&feature=related

[anthonyvop]

I would really welcome this! I did a turbo project on a Lancia Scorpion (euro version was montecarlo) WOW it was quite a ride. I owned several fiat 124's which were quite exciting to drive.

Mercedes made a good impact on Chrysler. I actually thing the cherokee limited is a better ride than the mercedes suv. the merc seems to have gotten too much detroit while the jeep got just the right amount of germany in it.

I sure Fiat could help the viper out!!
Turbo Scorpion!!!!!
I have a scorp in storage that I want to slap a turbo on.

[anthonyvop]

The cars are already developed, tested and have been in production for some time. Chrysler just need to retool, stick their badges on and send them out the door. I of course don't know how long it takes to retool, do quality control and so on but it can't be 3 years :mark:

Not that easy.
Any fiat would have to be re-engineered to meet US emission and Safety regs which, believe it or not, are tougher than Europe's.

[Daniel]

Not that easy.
Any fiat would have to be re-engineered to meet US emission and Safety regs which, believe it or not, are tougher than Europe's.

Sorry I'm posting on two different forums at the moment about the same thing. In the other one I mentioned adding federal impact bumpers and conforming to safety reds.

What are your emissions regs based on? I ask only as Fiat has some of the best CO2 ratings of any manufacturer around plus a lot of their engines are already Euro5 compliant.

[Roamy]

Tony
Most cars now are manufactured on a world wide acceptance. I know this from the old grey car days when we had dot shop and emissions labs.
very easy to pass if you are a manufacturer and very difficult to pass if you are an individual.

[steve_spackman]

Not that easy.
Any fiat would have to be re-engineered to meet US emission and Safety regs which, believe it or not, are tougher than Europe's.

doesnt mean they are safer..

[Daniel]

doesnt mean they are safer..

Maybe, maybe not but the regulations are what they are and any cars Chrysler sells in the US will have to comply.

[steve_spackman]

Maybe, maybe not but the regulations are what they are and any cars Chrysler sells in the US will have to comply.

same as what Saturn did with the astra

[Jag_Warrior]

IMHO the timing bloomberg is giving is a joke. How long does it take to tool up a factory for production? Certainly not 3 years! I think 2010/2011 is certainly a better timeline to be working on.

I don't see Chrysler actually making it's own cars based on Fiat platforms at least until Fiat's next group of platforms come out. I see it more likely that Chrysler will get the Grande Punto and Bravo and brand them as Chryslers to get decent cars which will be attractive to buyers coming out the door ASAP.
The cars are already developed, tested and have been in production for some time. Chrysler just need to retool, stick their badges on and send them out the door. I of course don't know how long it takes to retool, do quality control and so on but it can't be 3 years :mark:


A lot of it depends on what they're seeking to do: import and modify existing cars, refurb an idled plant and retool it to produce cars here or build a greenfield/new facility and tool it to the specific needs of the joint venture.

The quickest and easiest method would probably be to import and modify the cars that would most easily meet U.S. DOT requirements - and that would meet the highest level of U.S. demand. But that might also be costly, because of the exchange rate, shipping and the labor needed to do any needed modifications. I've never been involved in that sort of thing. But if all of the basics were in place, I would think this could be accomplished in 12-18 months.

The most basic of tool transfers takes 3-6 months to accomplish. I'm talking one component, not everything needed for an entire vehicle. I mention this because it's the supply chain that takes the most time to establish, whether it's a greenfield factory or a retooled factory. Shipping every component from Europe would be neither time nor cost effective. So longer term, a U.S. based supply chain would need to be established to get production somewhat close to a Just In Time model. So rather than tool transfers, these suppliers would also need to either be greenfield factories or retooled/refurbed facilities. The projects I work on tend to be 18-24 months in the future. So that would probably be true in this case as well. Our European division works with Fiat already, but I see none of what they do.

If the Fiat/Chrysler alliance goes the greenfield route, one could look at the new Volkswagen facility in Tennessee. They announced the site location around the middle of last year. I believe they have already broken ground. And their target date for producing cars is 2011.

Fiat was targeting 2011 as the date for re-entering the U.S. market anyway. So unless Fiat is worried about what it might find hiding in Chrysler's books, that it might not be able to devote resources to Chrysler amidst its own issues or that it might have a hard time securing (nonbankrupt) U.S. suppliers, I would think 2011 to be a realistic date for a joint project. But they could/should be working on importing Fiat models sooner than that.

Chrysler is virtually a corpse right now. Bob Nardelli is a killer of companies, not a builder. Under his leadership, as well as the other nickel sniffers at Cerberus, they'll be lucky to still be standing by this time next year. People are already leaving like rats abandoning a sinking ship. By 2012, there will be nothing left but a few janitors and some empty buildings, IMO.

[steve_spackman]

A lot of it depends on what they're seeking to do: import and modify existing cars, refurb an idled plant and retool it to produce cars here or build a greenfield/new facility and tool it to the specific needs of the joint venture.

The quickest and easiest method would probably be to import and modify the cars that would most easily meet U.S. DOT requirements - and that would meet the highest level of U.S. demand. But that might also be costly, because of the exchange rate, shipping and the labor needed to do any needed modifications. I've never been involved in that sort of thing. But if all of the basics were in place, I would think this could be accomplished in 12-18 months.

The most basic of tool transfers takes 3-6 months to accomplish. I'm talking one component, not everything needed for an entire vehicle. I mention this because it's the supply chain that takes the most time to establish, whether it's a greenfield factory or a retooled factory. Shipping every component from Europe would be neither time nor cost effective. So longer term, a U.S. based supply chain would need to be established to get production somewhat close to a Just In Time model. So rather than tool transfers, these suppliers would also need to either be greenfield factories or retooled/refurbed facilities. The projects I work on tend to be 18-24 months in the future. So that would probably be true in this case as well. Our European division works with Fiat already, but I see none of what they do.

If the Fiat/Chrysler alliance goes the greenfield route, one could look at the new Volkswagen facility in Tennessee. They announced the site location around the middle of last year. I believe they have already broken ground. And their target date for producing cars is 2011.

Fiat was targeting 2011 as the date for re-entering the U.S. market anyway. So unless Fiat is worried about what it might find hiding in Chrysler's books, that it might not be able to devote resources to Chrysler amidst its own issues or that it might have a hard time securing (nonbankrupt) U.S. suppliers, I would think 2011 to be a realistic date for a joint project. But they could/should be working on importing Fiat models sooner than that.

Chrysler is virtually a corpse right now. Bob Nardelli is a killer of companies, not a builder. Under his leadership, as well as the other nickel sniffers at Cerberus, they'll be lucky to still be standing by this time next year. People are already leaving like rats abandoning a sinking ship. By 2012, there will be nothing left but a few janitors and some empty buildings, IMO.

Saturn had their Astra built in belgium i believe.

[anthonyvop]

same as what Saturn did with the astra
The Astra is built by Opel. Opel is owned by GM. GM owns Saturn. The Astra was designed with the US market also in mind.

Every Fiat car was built without the US Market regs in mind except the Sedici which was a joint venture with Suzuki.

[Jag_Warrior]

Crazy times...




Trading in Fiat shares was suspended in Milan today following a slump in profits and reports that the Italian carmaker was seeking a merger with Peugeot-Citroën, its French counterpart.
With analysts holding out the prospect of a wide-ranging shake-up of the European car industry amid the crisis, Italian newspapers said that the group was considering a €2 billion capital increase ahead of a move for Peugeot.
Fiat denied the claims, saying there were no plans for a tie-up.
But with the Agnellis, Fiat's founding family, also reported to be looking at a €5 billion loan to finance partnerships, the rumours continued to swirl around Paris and Milan.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article5567409.ece

[Daniel]

Crazy times...




http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article5567409.ece

A marriage with Peugeot would be a seriously dumb move :mark: I don't think it will actually happen tbh but if it does then I think they're screwed.

[steve_spackman]

Maybe, maybe not but the regulations are what they are and any cars Chrysler sells in the US will have to comply.

One small snag is that Fiat also shares the 500’s platform with Ford Motor Company, who used it to produce the latest Ford Ka . U.S. sales have been rumoured for the Ka, although nothing has been finalised. Should the little Ford reach our shores, though, you can bet the Blue Oval would raise a stink in an attempt to keep a Chrysler-fied 500 from reaching market.

[steve_spackman]

This site seems to sum it up quite well :)

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2009/cars/industry/01/chrysler/1901.html

Looks like it could actually be a good deal for Chrysler and Fiat.


One small snag is that Fiat also shares the 500’s platform with Ford Motor Company, who used it to produce the latest Ford Ka . U.S. sales have been rumoured for the Ka, although nothing has been finalised. Should the little Ford reach our shores, though, you can bet the Blue Oval would raise a stink in an attempt to keep a Chrysler-fied 500 from reaching market.

[anthonyvop]

One small snag is that Fiat also shares the 500’s platform with Ford Motor Company, who used it to produce the latest Ford Ka . U.S. sales have been rumoured for the Ka, although nothing has been finalised. Should the little Ford reach our shores, though, you can bet the Blue Oval would raise a stink in an attempt to keep a Chrysler-fied 500 from reaching market.
Ford can't do a dang thing.
Fiat owns the 500. They can sell it where they want unless Ford and Fiat has an agreement banning it's sale in the US.

[steve_spackman]

Ford can't do a dang thing.
Fiat owns the 500. They can sell it where they want unless Ford and Fiat has an agreement banning it's sale in the US.

thats why i said you can bet the Blue Oval would raise a stink in an attempt to keep a Chrysler-fied 500 from reaching market.

[Daniel]

One small snag is that Fiat also shares the 500’s platform with Ford Motor Company, who used it to produce the latest Ford Ka . U.S. sales have been rumoured for the Ka, although nothing has been finalised. Should the little Ford reach our shores, though, you can bet the Blue Oval would raise a stink in an attempt to keep a Chrysler-fied 500 from reaching market.


Firstly it's the Panda platform :p

The thing is Fiat 500 is made by Fiat in a Fiat factory and uses Fiat engines. So Ford would have to retool as well to produce it and I somehow doubt Fiat will allow Ford to do that although we don't know the details of their contract. Far better if they wanted to build the Ka in the US to do a jv with Chrysler or Fiat and share the costs. Win win situation there for all three sides. One funny thing to come out of all of this is that Fiat is in bed with all of the big 3. GM with the Grande Punto/Corsa, Ford with the Panda/500/Ka and now Chrysler and it's doing well out of it all. Joint ventures are the best way for manufacturers to survive in these harsh times.

[Jag_Warrior]

More noise came out of Congress earlier today over the Fiat deal. Since Fiat is putting in zero dollars, there's increasing doubt that Chrysler can survive for as long as 2-3 model years. And if Chrysler can't get the next $3 billion in loan funds, that kills the Fiat deal.

USA Today:

Even as Fiat, the biggest car company in Italy, began to stagger financially, its plan to acquire 35% of Chrysler for no cash began to stick in congressional craws. The government has lent the automaker $4 billion and is expected to lend an additional $3 billion soon, on top of $1.5 billion to Chrysler Financial.

"U.S. taxpayers will have loaned $8.5 billion to Chrysler, and (the company) is ending up in the hands of Fiat. It's just a way to entice Fiat to take them," Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., said in an interview. "It leaves me and some people in this country scratching their heads."

Still, he wonders about the alternative: "I think there's no chance that Chrysler can pay the money back to taxpayers as a stand-alone. None. I want taxpayers to get their money back. The stronger the company is, the better the chance."


Sen. Robert Menendez, D- N.J., also on the banking panel, said in a letter to President Obama that if Fiat takes control of Chrysler, Obama should require Chrysler to repay the loans immediately.