Has Ferrari already crossed the line?

[Tazio]

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/11221/900/

"Jan.19 (GMM) Ferrari's newly launched 2009 single seater, the F60, has been declared "illegal" by a specialist German motoring publication. Auto Motor und Sport said the car, revealed last week at the Mugello circuit in Italy, features rear exhaust outlets that contravene the sweeping new technical regulations.

The magazine said some of the Italian team's rivals have noted that because of the new rules cracking down on bodywork appendages like aerodynamic winglets, exposing the exhausts in the way the F60 is designed is not allowed."

Discuss!

[PolePosition_1]

It was known at the time of the launch that the model revealed at launch would not comply with the regulations.

[ioan]

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/11221/900/

"Jan.19 (GMM) Ferrari's newly launched 2009 single seater, the F60, has been declared "illegal" by a specialist German motoring publication. Auto Motor und Sport said the car, revealed last week at the Mugello circuit in Italy, features rear exhaust outlets that contravene the sweeping new technical regulations.

The magazine said some of the Italian team's rivals have noted that because of the new rules cracking down on bodywork appendages like aerodynamic winglets, exposing the exhausts in the way the F60 is designed is not allowed."

Discuss!

There is nothing to discuss s long as they do not use it during the season.

[Tazio]

There is nothing to discuss s long as they do not use it during the season.OK
I guess I was the only one they forgot to inform that they knew it wasn't in compliance! ;)

The article also included this little tidbit:

"Officially, Ferrari decamped to Mugello because of adverse weather forecasts for this week, but the magazine said the F60 also showed a significant problem with its front wing when tested last week.

It is suggested that, in light of these challenges, Ferrari concluded that it should be conducting the car's first major test as close as possible to its Maranello base."

I guess when you have their money, and facilities you can do such things!
It sounds like BS though! :dozey:

[Knock-on]

I'll be interested in seeing whether their winglets (mirrors) survive to the first race ;)

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Ferrari invented the concept...

It ain't Cheating unless you get caught !!!

That's been adopted by NA$CAR'S crew chief's for many years.

:rolleyes: Now the question is:

With such oblivious infactions... what has Ferrari hidden/hoping it will be "overlooked" ?

[ioan]

The season didn't even start and the same losers are already accusing Ferrari of cheating! :rolleyes:

[trumperZ06]

:rolleyes: Reputable news organizations have already caught Ferrari "Cheating"... and it's only January !!!

:dozey: Looks like Ioan's whining even earlier this year !!!

;) Gotta LUV the ethics being displayed !!!

[Tazio]

:dozey: Ferrari invented the concept...

It ain't Cheating unless you get caught !!!

That's been adopted by NA$CAR'S crew chief's for many years.

:rolleyes: Now the question is:

With such oblivious infactions... what has Ferrari hidden/hoping it will be "overlooked" ?
Yes I see a mess in the making!
The teams (including Ferrari) are going to wait untill someone has a competative advantage, and then protest.
Some things in F1 never change! :p :

[ioan]

:rolleyes: Reputable news organizations have already caught Ferrari "Cheating"... and it's only January !!!

:dozey: Looks like Ioan's whining even earlier this year !!!

;) Gotta LUV the ethics being displayed !!!

I guess you just invented the cheating during the launch of a new car and during pre-season testing! :rotflmao:

Ioan does not tolerate stupidity at any point of the year! :laugh:

[ioan]

Yes I see a mess in the making!

Well you started it, I hope you are happy now.

[PSfan]

:rolleyes: Now the question is:

With such oblivious infactions... what has Ferrari hidden/hoping it will be "overlooked" ?


Um maybe we should call up MacLeran and they can tell us what Ferrari are hiding...

[henners88]

The season didn't even start and the same losers are already accusing Ferrari of cheating! :rolleyes:


Yeah thats not fair its common knowledge on here that its only acceptable to accuse Mclaren of cheating.... :D

[Knock-on]

Ioan does not tolerate stupidity at any point of the year! :laugh:

ioan. On a serious point, you have to learn to tolerate yourself. Love yourself a bit mate for Gods sake.

:D

[ioan]

Um maybe we should call up MacLeran and they can tell us what Ferrari are hiding...

:up: :rotflmao:

[ioan]

ioan. On a serious point, you have to learn to tolerate yourself. Love yourself a bit mate for Gods sake.

:D

I get along perfectly with myself, I wouldn't want to be in your place though! :laugh:

[trumperZ06]

Um maybe we should call up MacLeran and they can tell us what Ferrari are hiding...

:dozey: Hhmmm... having something visible that obliviously is a "Rule infaction"...

has been used to cleverly hide another/more important modification that's outside the rules.

;) Remember... inspectors are paid to find errors and many will keep "looking" until they discover something to write-up.

Smokey Yunick found that "life was simplier"... if you leave something out in the open for the inspectors/stewards to find.

[jens]

I see that the discussion in this topic is going to quite nowhere. :D Anyway, again - before making more serious conclusions we have to wait to get some more evidence. As long as a team doesn't race with an illegal car, there shouldn't be a problem (testing an illegal car isn't something unusual, in the past less funded teams may have used that to attract more sponsors). Another question is whether Ferrari may have a problem/misjudgement and may be disadvantaged already in such an early phase of the year.

[trumperZ06]

:rotflmao:

Ioan does tolerate stupidity at any point of the year! :laugh:

GOTTA LUV... True Confessions !!! :)














Sorry... that was just too easy !!! ;)

[trumperZ06]

I see that the discussion in this topic is going to quite nowhere. :D Anyway, again - before making more serious conclusions we have to wait to get some more evidence. As long as a team doesn't race with an illegal car, there shouldn't be a problem (testing an illegal car isn't something unusual, in the past less funded teams may have used that to attract more sponsors). Another question is whether Ferrari may have a problem/misjudgement and may be disadvantaged already in such an early phase of the year.

:D Hey... it is pre-season and everyone's a little "bored"

waiting for the first race.

;) Nice of Ferrari to give us something to discuss !!!

[Bagwan]

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/11221/900/

"Jan.19 (GMM) Ferrari's newly launched 2009 single seater, the F60, has been declared "illegal" by a specialist German motoring publication. Auto Motor und Sport said the car, revealed last week at the Mugello circuit in Italy, features rear exhaust outlets that contravene the sweeping new technical regulations.

The magazine said some of the Italian team's rivals have noted that because of the new rules cracking down on bodywork appendages like aerodynamic winglets, exposing the exhausts in the way the F60 is designed is not allowed."

Discuss!

Seems to me there must be some room for interpretation , and the rest of them at the test went another direction .
Ferrari retreated to Mugello , perhaps not because of the weather .
Was it because the outlets needed re-design , or was it that they want to develope this divergent design farther ?

I think perhaps there's a loophole that the reds have found , and the others will be behind .
Is this a case of the exhaust being designed for both a function for itself and to cause a co-incidental aero gain ?

It's kinda like the wheel discs being cooling ducts , when they seem clearly to be more about the aerodynamics of the wheel , itself .

Is this the start of the "flip-up" exhaust ?

[BDunnell]

I wasn't aware that a German motoring magazine could declare an F1 car illegal, unless the FIA's role has changed more dramatically than anyone thought.

[yodasarmpit]

It aint cheating unless they use it in a race, and only then if it's declared illegal by the FIA.

[CNR]

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/woodlines/pictures/Counseling/stopthink1.jpg
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8688/


A team of specially appointed scrutineers has the power to check cars at any point during a Grand Prix weekend to ensure that they fully comply with technical and safety regulations.

Every car is initially examined on the Thursday of a race meeting (Wednesday at Monaco) and a car cannot take part in the event until it has passed scrutineering. A car must be re-examined by scrutineers if any significant changes are made to it by the team or if it is involved in an accident.

[anthonyvop]

Well McLaren was running their 2009 cars with a 2008 wing. So are they cheering also?

[mstillhere]

:dozey: Ferrari invented the concept...

It ain't Cheating unless you get caught !!!

That's been adopted by NA$CAR'S crew chief's for many years.

:rolleyes: Now the question is:

With such oblivious infactions... what has Ferrari hidden/hoping it will be "overlooked" ?

If you are implying, for some reason, that Ferrari is triyng to cheat I would like to remind you that McLaren was BUSTED not too long ago.

Furthermore, the part in question is soooooo obvious that even a blind person could see it. Ferrari are smarter than that. You know that!

[mstillhere]

Yeah thats not fair its common knowledge on here that its only acceptable to accuse Mclaren of cheating.... :D

well that is very well documented

[Roamy]

It was Schumacher's idea to put the pipes like that to try and create downforce!!

[wmcot]

Nothing to see here - move along people...

[ArrowsFA1]

I wasn't aware that a German motoring magazine could declare an F1 car illegal, unless the FIA's role has changed more dramatically than anyone thought.
:up:

[Daniel]

I wasn't aware that a German motoring magazine could declare an F1 car illegal, unless the FIA's role has changed more dramatically than anyone thought.

You're obviously not a blind McLaren fan with an axe to grind :p

Personally I'll wait till someone in authority rules that it breaks the regs rather than listen to some idiot rambling and making assumptions.

[Dave B]

If Ferrari turn up at Melbourne with an illegal car then more fool them.

Until then it's (a) speculation from a magazine, and (b) only testing.

[Dave B]

If Ferrari turn up at Melbourne with an illegal car then more fool them.

Hang on: didn't they do that in 2007? :p

:dozey: Ferrari invented the concept...

It ain't Cheating unless you get caught !!!

They didn't invent it. They may have perfected it, but anyone with a knowledge of F1 would know that they didn't invent it.

[ShiftingGears]

They didn't invent it. They may have perfected it, but anyone with a knowledge of F1 would know that they didn't invent it.

Yep.

[Ranger]

They didn't invent it. They may have perfected it, but anyone with a knowledge of F1 would know that they didn't invent it.

I've read stories of Tazio Nuvolari secretly sabotaging opponent's cars between qualifying and the race of several grands prix... in 1935! :s hock:

[philipbain]

"Officially, Ferrari decamped to Mugello because of adverse weather forecasts for this week, but the magazine said the F60 also showed a significant problem with its front wing when tested last week.

It is quite ironic that the official (complete BS reason) for them testing at Mugello was weather and the poor weather at Mugello has meant that thier testing this week has been very unproductive!

PS. Of all the cars launched so far the Ferrari not only contravenes the rules in it's current guise, but in my own view is the weird combination of being more conventional whilst being more ugly, those front of pod fences and the extended section on the top of the sidepod inlet are plain hideous.

[mstillhere]

It is quite ironic that the official (complete BS reason) for them testing at Mugello was weather and the poor weather at Mugello has meant that thier testing this week has been very unproductive!

PS. Of all the cars launched so far the Ferrari not only contravenes the rules in it's current guise, but in my own view is the weird combination of being more conventional whilst being more ugly, those front of pod fences and the extended section on the top of the sidepod inlet are plain hideous.

Many of you are nothing but a lynching mob. So far you are going by what ONE newspaper has published. No other major media has reported any wrong doing. They are only reporting what the Gerrman magazine reported. But yet, showing an eagerness to start trouble that I find very insulting and mean spirited, you are already declaring Ferrari cheating. You should all be banned. Including "philipbain" saying the Ferrari "contravenes the rules". You should use the Conditional buddy for hyphothetical, not the Present Tense describing it as a fact. Facts like, you know, McLaren cheating and stealing, and lying, and hiding, etc.etc.etc.

[Tazio]

Many of you are nothing but a lynching mob. So far you are going by what ONE newspaper has published... No other major media has reported any wrong doing. They are only reporting what the Gerrman magazine reported. But yet, showing an eagerness to start trouble that I find very insulting and mean spirited, you are already declaring Ferrari cheating. You should all be banned. Including "philipbain" saying the Ferrari "contravenes the rules". You should use the Conditional buddy for hyphothetical, not the Present Tense describing it as a fact. Facts like, you know, McLaren cheating and stealing, and lying, and hiding, etc.etc.etc.
I started this thread to see if there was a consensus on whether the exhaust configuration was legal or illegal.
Someone pointed out that this is something that is already being "considered", and "questioned" by other teams!
Why the F**k does every discussion have to turn into "us against them"!!
So sad :down:

[trumperZ06]

Many of you are nothing but a lynching mob. So far you are going by what ONE newspaper has published. No other major media has reported any wrong doing. They are only reporting what the Gerrman magazine reported. But yet, showing an eagerness to start trouble that I find very insulting and mean spirited, you are already declaring Ferrari cheating. You should all be banned. Including "philipbain" saying the Ferrari "contravenes the rules". You should use the Conditional buddy for hyphothetical, not the Present Tense describing it as a fact. Facts like, you know, McLaren cheating and stealing, and lying, and hiding, etc.etc.etc.

:rolleyes: Why so bitter.... people are commenting about CURRENT... multiple press reports.

:dozey: Hhmmm today... Norbert Haig is quoted by the German News Agency SID as saying he believes the Italian team "Will Change" the offending feature before the first race...

Walter Riedl also said he assumes that the launch specification of the Ferrari was merely "Provisional".

These are the Formula One Chiefs of Mercedes/McLaren and BMW respectfully.

;) Cya @ the track,

Trumper

[BTCC2]

Well McLaren was running their 2009 cars with a 2008 wing. So are they cheering also?

Answer his question chaps. Or is it different now it's McLaren? It seems the Ferrari bashing has started even earlier than normal this season, any excuse ey.

[mstillhere]

:rolleyes: Why so bitter.... people are commenting about CURRENT... multiple press reports.

:dozey: Hhmmm today... Norbert Haig is quoted by the German News Agency SID as saying he believes the Italian team "Will Change" the offending feature before the first race...

Walter Riedl also said he assumes that the launch specification of the Ferrari was merely "Provisional".

These are the Formula One Chiefs of Mercedes/McLaren and BMW respectfully.

;) Cya @ the track,

Trumper

One thing for sure is that we Ferrari supporters have moved on about the McLaren dishonesty. You rarely, if ever, hear Ferrari fans referring to those facts anymore, unless provoked. I cannot say the same thing from the envious and jalous of Ferrari success McLaren supporters. You people instead don't miss a chance to make your unfair remarks. Your inability to move on on this matter is prove of how malicious your intentions really are. Nothing to do with the sport. Only cheap shots. Very cheap, indeed. We could do the same but I guess life goes on but apparently not for everybody.
PS Kind reminder: before McLaren tops ferrari success hell will freeze over, or when pigs fly.

[ShiftingGears]

One thing for sure is that we Ferrari supporters have moved on about the McLaren dishonesty. You rarely, if ever, hear Ferrari fans referring to those facts anymore, unless provoked. I cannot say the same thing from the envious and jalous of Ferrari success McLaren supporters. You people instead don't miss a chance to make your unfair remarks. Your inability to move on on this matter is prove of how malicious your intentions really are. Nothing to do with the sport. Only cheap shots. Very cheap, indeed. We could do the same but I guess life goes on but apparently not for everybody.
PS Kind reminder: before McLaren tops ferrari success hell will freeze over, or when pigs fly.

You brought it up, so how about you cut it out and stop acting like such a child?

[mstillhere]

You brought it up, so how about you cut it out and stop acting like such a child?

Actually I did not bring anything up. (I guess you don't know how to read). On top of that, I am not accustomed to back away when I see people not being able to stop the continuous unjustified bashing of Ferrari nor when people insult me (you are a little bully - I am not scared BTW). I'll be waiting for you to cut it out and move on. Can you do that or you need a little help? "Allegra" rings a bell? Or maybe Prozac will be a better choice?

[ShiftingGears]

Actually I did not bring anything up. (I guess you don't know how to read). On top of that, I am not accustomed to back away when I see people not being able to stop the continuous unjustified bashing of Ferrari nor when people insult me (you are a little bully - I am not scared BTW). I'll be waiting for you to cut it out and move on. Can you do that or you need a little help? "Allegra" rings a bell? Or maybe Prozac will be a better choice?

You introduced the childish "Us vs Them" argument into the conversation, as well as bringing up 2007, again.




:rolleyes: Reputable news organizations have already caught Ferrari "Cheating"... and it's only January !!!

:dozey: Looks like Ioan's whining even earlier this year !!!

;) Gotta LUV the ethics being displayed !!!

The Ferrari may be illegal, but it doesn't matter because it is testing.




What specifically about Ferrari's design makes it illegal, exactly?

[ShiftingGears]

One thing for sure is that we Ferrari supporters have moved on about the McLaren dishonesty. You rarely, if ever, hear Ferrari fans referring to those facts anymore, unless provoked. I cannot say the same thing from the envious and jalous of Ferrari success McLaren supporters. You people instead don't miss a chance to make your unfair remarks. Your inability to move on on this matter is prove of how malicious your intentions really are. Nothing to do with the sport. Only cheap shots. Very cheap, indeed. We could do the same but I guess life goes on but apparently not for everybody.
PS Kind reminder: before McLaren tops ferrari success hell will freeze over, or when pigs fly.

What I would say is - So what if the cars illegal? They aren't gaining an advantage from it.

[mstillhere]

What I would say is - So what if the cars illegal? They aren't gaining an advantage from it.

That's exactly what I have been saying. They can test their car with 5 wheels if they want to. It's their testing programme. Let them test the way they want to. Since when this has become a matter of discussion? So that the usual suspects can start trouble?

Also, you need to read ALL the posts. I did not start this argument. I started after a couple of guys started bashing Ferrari. As I mentioned, as a Ferrari fan, I moved on. You guys should try it. it feels all right. Give it a shot.

[mstillhere]

You introduced the childish "Us vs Them" argument into the conversation, as well as bringing up 2007, again.

You are incredibly partial in your comments. I am not going to respond to that. For some reason it's not sticking. It's pointless

[ioan]

You brought it up, so how about you cut it out and stop acting like such a child?

Who acts like a child? I rather say it's you and other Ferrari haters around here.

This thread proves again what I knew for years, there are plenty of Ferrari haters around here, and they will start their hate fest at the slightest opportunity, no matter if is real or fiction. They just need a bone to chew on otherwise they lose their appetite for F1.

[ShiftingGears]

That's exactly what I have been saying. They can test their car with 5 wheels if they want to.

Okay, I was a bit harsh there. I apologise.

Does the steering wheel count as a wheel? ;)


And - I'm not sure I see a purpose in unveiling car that is illegal (if this is the case) unless they are masking further developments from the competition.

[ShiftingGears]

Who acts like a child? I rather say it's you and other Ferrari haters around here.

Oh yes, I am completely and utterly a Ferrari hater. You've got me sorted, based on no evidence whatsoever.

[ioan]

The Ferrari may be illegal, but it doesn't matter because it is testing.

A testing car can't be illegal, the rules are there for the competition not for the test sessions.
Try to tell that to the mindless haters.

[ioan]

Oh yes, I am completely and utterly a Ferrari hater. You've got me sorted, based on no evidence whatsoever.

Couldn't care less about what you want for evidence.

[ShiftingGears]

Couldn't care less about what you want for evidence.

Have fun with your ignorant assumptions.

[ioan]

Have fun with your ignorant assumptions.

Every bit of further attack from you improves the fun for me! So, keep it up! :p :

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.f1complete.com/content/view/11221/900/

"Jan.19 (GMM) Ferrari's newly launched 2009 single seater, the F60, has been declared "illegal" by a specialist German motoring publication. Auto Motor und Sport said the car, revealed last week at the Mugello circuit in Italy, features rear exhaust outlets that contravene the sweeping new technical regulations.

The magazine said some of the Italian team's rivals have noted that because of the new rules cracking down on bodywork appendages like aerodynamic winglets, exposing the exhausts in the way the F60 is designed is not allowed."

Discuss!

Lies! lies!! all filthy lies!! As ioan will testify!!

[Dave B]

Well this discussion is going well, I see... :uhoh:

[Daniel]

Well this discussion is going well, I see... :uhoh:

Yeah. Shame people didn't use the same attitude yourself and BDunnell used which was "Who made the press the judge, jury and executioner?" :confused:

[ShiftingGears]

Does anyone know the specific regulations that the magazine is claiming that the F60 is breaching? Anyone? Otherwise this thread isn't going anywhere.

[Dave B]

Does anyone know the specific regulations that the magazine is claiming that the F60 is breaching? Anyone? Otherwise this thread isn't going anywhere.
Exhaust outlets, and possibly the mounts for the mirrors. But as the car has never been through scrutineering it's irrelevant anyway. So long as the car is legal come March 27th they can do whatever they like in testing.

[ShiftingGears]

Every bit of further attack from you improves the fun for me! So, keep it up! :p :

As I said, have fun.

[ioan]

Does anyone know the specific regulations that the magazine is claiming that the F60 is breaching? Anyone? Otherwise this thread isn't going anywhere.

It seems that the exhaust pipes have to be incorporated into the bodywork, like the other teams already did.
It's not so difficult to achieve and I'm sure that Ferrari know the rules very well and also they know what they are doing.

[ioan]

As I said, have fun.

Thanks, I'm having plenty of fun! :)

[Knock-on]

Good lord, what a bloody mess :(

As soon as someone raises a question about the Ferrari, we have the usual crew going on about Ferrari haters and carrying on as if their mother has been insulted :rolleyes:

Come on people. The exhausts and mirors are not being raced in Australia are they? However, they are being tested in public and people are going to comment on them. Whats wrong with that?

It's similar to McLaren running a hybrid of last years rear wing. They're obviously doing it for comparison and benchmark reasons but have no intention of racing it.

[SGWilko]

One thing for sure is that we Ferrari supporters have moved on about the McLaren dishonesty. You rarely, if ever, hear Ferrari fans referring to those facts anymore, unless provoked. I cannot say the same thing from the envious and jalous of Ferrari success McLaren supporters. You people instead don't miss a chance to make your unfair remarks. Your inability to move on on this matter is prove of how malicious your intentions really are. Nothing to do with the sport. Only cheap shots. Very cheap, indeed. We could do the same but I guess life goes on but apparently not for everybody.
PS Kind reminder: before McLaren tops ferrari success hell will freeze over, or when pigs fly.

Eh, where have you been recently then - locked in the pantry? ;)

[SGWilko]

Good lord, what a bloody mess :(

As soon as someone raises a question about the Ferrari, we have the usual crew going on about Ferrari haters and carrying on as if their mother has been insulted :rolleyes:

Come on people. The exhausts and mirors are not being raced in Australia are they? However, they are being tested in public and people are going to comment on them. Whats wrong with that?

It's similar to McLaren running a hybrid of last years rear wing. They're obviously doing it for comparison and benchmark reasons but have no intention of racing it.

Hear here!

Good lord, what a bloody mess :(

As soon as someone raises a question about the Ferrari, we have the usual crew going on about Ferrari haters and carrying on as if their mother has been insulted :rolleyes:

Come on people. The exhausts and mirors are not being raced in Australia are they? However, they are being tested in public and people are going to comment on them. Whats wrong with that?

It's similar to McLaren running a hybrid of last years rear wing. They're obviously doing it for comparison and benchmark reasons but have no intention of racing it.

Good point...except the title of the thread is "Have Ferrari Crossed the Line Already?" which doesn't exactly promote a feeling of fairness in the post.

Just in the interest of balance, and due to the outrageous (sic) fact that Mclaren are running a 2008 spec wing in Portimao, could you start a thread entitled "Are Mclaren Are At It Again?"

It wouldn't be fair, but it would even things up.

[Daniel]

Good lord, what a bloody mess :(

As soon as someone raises a question about the Ferrari, we have the usual crew going on about Ferrari haters and carrying on as if their mother has been insulted :rolleyes:

Come on people. The exhausts and mirors are not being raced in Australia are they? However, they are being tested in public and people are going to comment on them. Whats wrong with that?

It's similar to McLaren running a hybrid of last years rear wing. They're obviously doing it for comparison and benchmark reasons but have no intention of racing it.

Some good points but lets be honest some people came out and talked as if the F60 was illegal or something. Which until it goes into scrutineering at the first race is neither here nor there. Then there were posts talking about how Ferrari invented cheating or something similar. I can understand why people got annoyed.

[Knock-on]

Good point...except the title of the thread is "Have Ferrari Crossed the Line Already?" which doesn't exactly promote a feeling of fairness in the post.

Just in the interest of balance, and due to the outrageous (sic) fact that Mclaren are running a 2008 spec wing in Portimao, could you start a thread entitled "Are Mclaren Are At It Again?"

It wouldn't be fair, but it would even things up.

I thought this thread was supposed to discuss the legality or otherwise of the Ferrari.

Nobody says he has to open the discussion out to other cars as the thread didn't cover that subject.

However, the subject of the McLaren rear wing was raised and as such I attempted to cover both points. In my opinion, every car out there is legal as there is no requirement for them to adhere to F1 technical regulations during testing.

If either turns up on the Grid in Aus unchanged, then I suggest they would both fail scrutineering but as this is unlikely to happen, it's a moot point.

Posters don't have to be fair and are fully entitled to post their opinion or argument as they see fit. Preferably, they back their opinion up with some sort of evidence or collateral as this thread starter has done which is nice to see.

Doesn't happen all the time ;)

[Knock-on]

Some good points but lets be honest some people came out and talked as if the F60 was illegal or something. Which until it goes into scrutineering at the first race is neither here nor there. Then there were posts talking about how Ferrari invented cheating or something similar. I can understand why people got annoyed.

Blimey, if people get annoyed about something so trivial, more fool them :)

I cannot answer for other posters but I suggest most people here haven't accused Ferrari of cheating or hate Ferrari as some Ferrari fans keep claiming.

It gets a bit tiresome. :(

[ioan]

I thought this thread was supposed to discuss the legality or otherwise of the Ferrari.

In that case there's nothing to discuss.

I hope the mods close this bashing fest.

[Knock-on]

In that case there's nothing to discuss.

I hope the mods close this bashing fest.

Again, the only bashing I can see is you bashing other members.

Actually, I think the views on this thread are interesting as it's fascinating looking at the different cars.

[Daniel]

Blimey, if people get annoyed about something so trivial, more fool them :)

I cannot answer for other posters but I suggest most people here haven't accused Ferrari of cheating or hate Ferrari as some Ferrari fans keep claiming.

It gets a bit tiresome. :(

I love how you make your own rules.

Here I go with a Knockieism - If people don't like having their genitals ripped off then more fool them. There I said it so it must be true and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong :angryfire I mean :(

Seriously if this were McLaren and people were suggesting that McLaren were cheating you'd be up in arms! This would be an outrage and there's be a :( smilie at the end of your post as a silly little attempt at garnering some sympathy.

I saw what farterZ06 said and it was annoying to see someone accuse a team of cheating when what are they cheating at? Testing?

[ioan]

Again, the only bashing I can see is you bashing other members.

Actually, I think the views on this thread are interesting as it's fascinating looking at the different cars.

Take of the silver lenses, it might help you see at least a bit of the reality.

[jens]

What an exciting debate - a shame Garry Walker is missing, who would heat it up even more here. :p :

Anyway, I have noticed that mirror wings have been mentioned here. What is wrong with them, I would like to ask. As far as I have noticed, Toyota has run them too (and they don't have mirrors mounted to them, but have just pure winglets!) and also Williams, although I'm not 100% sure about them, because the car is so entirely dark-blue that it is really difficult to differentiate smaller details on the car. :p : Arguably those teams have found a way past the new strict aero regulations with such solution. I wouldn't write off the possibility of seeing more winglets sooner or later!

[PolePosition_1]

Hang on: didn't they do that in 2007? :p

They did indeed.

[Knock-on]

I love how you make your own rules.

Here I go with a Knockieism - If people don't like having their genitals ripped off then more fool them. There I said it so it must be true and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong :angryfire I mean :(

In the interests of science, I'm prepared to investigate this further.

Lets meet up, you can go first and insult McLaren all you like and then I will rip off your gonads. I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong :p


Seriously if this were McLaren and people were suggesting that McLaren were cheating you'd be up in arms! This would be an outrage and there's be a :( smilie at the end of your post as a silly little attempt at garnering some sympathy.

Have I suggested Ferrari are cheating? I think it was a Ferrari fan that claimed on this thread that the Red team had perfected the art of cheating ;)


I saw what farterZ06 said and it was annoying to see someone accuse a team of cheating when what are they cheating at? Testing?

So, you get a bit annoyed. No big deal. Suck it up young man

[Daniel]

In the interests of science, I'm prepared to investigate this further.

Lets meet up, you can go first and insult McLaren all you like and then I will rip off your gonads. I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong :p

I was of course joking, a point which was obviously lost on you :(


Have I suggested Ferrari are cheating? I think it was a Ferrari fan that claimed on this thread that the Red team had perfected the art of cheating ;)

I don't care whether he's a Ligier fan or whatever. Accusing Ferrari of cheating when they're testing is .... errmmm...... silly.... and annoying



So, you get a bit annoyed. No big deal. Suck it up young man

I don't need to suck it up and neither does anyone else. I'm more than happy to come out and voice my opinions.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Ferrari design has such an oblivious visible infaction...

that no one expects them to submit that car for scrutineering @ Australia.

:) That truly begs the question... is there something else Ferrari is doing/hoping they can sneak it by when inspected ?

:rolleyes: It's not like it would be the "first time"...

That Ferrari would make such an attempt !!!

;) Which probably explains the over zealous reaction by Ferrari Fanbois...

To the press's and competitive teams questioning Ferrari's design.

[Knock-on]

:dozey: Ferrari design has such an oblivious visible infaction...

that no one expects them to submit that car for scrutineering @ Australia.

:) That truly begs the question... is there something else Ferrari is doing/hoping they can sneak it by when inspected ?

It's not like it would be the "first time"...

That Ferrari would make such an attempt !!!

;) Which probably explains the over zealous reaction by Ferrari Fanbois...

To the press's and competitive teams questioning Ferrari's design.

:laugh: Now Trumpy. You should know that when you go to the Zoo, you shouldn't feed the animals.

Take yourself to Max's pad for a sound thrashing you naughty boy :D

I think it was a Ferrari fan that claimed on this thread that the Red team had perfected the art of cheating ;)

You may have thought that's what a Ferrari fan said, but it wasn't what the Ferrari fan actually said.......


They didn't invent it. They may have perfected it, but anyone with a knowledge of F1 would know that they didn't invent it.

Note the word 'may'?

Now, without wishing to get into legalese, something which it has been evident for somewhile is a subject with which you are less than 'au fait', but the word 'may' is not a definitive.

I certainly did not claim that Ferrari perfected anything, so in future please stick to the facts and check them.

[Knock-on]

I was of course joking, a point which was obviously lost on you :(



PML, you crack me up.

You make a silly statement in just to which I reply in obvious jest and then you fail to see the joke even though I had a :p at the end of it :laugh:

Then you use a :( to express dissapointment when you criticise me for using it

Irony obviously didn't bother crossing the Equator :p

[Knock-on]

You may have thought that's what a Ferrari fan said, but it wasn't what the Ferrari fan actually said.......



Note the word 'may'?

Now, without wishing to get into legalese, something which it has been evident for somewhile is a subject with which you are less than 'au fait', but the word 'may' is not a definitive.

I certainly did not claim that Ferrari perfected anything, so in future please stick to the facts and check them.


:laugh:

You may be right but I doubt it. Having to use your "legalese" to split hairs in disproving something you suggested in the first place is a first even for you :D

[Daniel]

Irony obviously didn't bother crossing the Equator :p


Evidently it didn't :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

:dozey: Ferrari design has such an oblivious visible infaction...

that no one expects them to submit that car for scrutineering @ Australia.

:) That truly begs the question... is there something else Ferrari is doing/hoping they can sneak it by when inspected ?

:rolleyes: It's not like it would be the "first time"...

That Ferrari would make such an attempt !!!

;) Which probably explains the over zealous reaction by Ferrari Fanbois...

To the press's and competitive teams questioning Ferrari's design.

LOL nice trolling :)

According to Mark Hughes in Autosport, the FIA regulations prevent the use of cooling slats in the upper bodywork. No mention of the exhausts in his article, nor in the Autosport technical insight on the F60 on the webpage...

"Slightly shorter than the F2008, the F60 cleverly exploits every blind spot in the bodywork rules to recoup the 50% loss in downforce from its smaller wings and diffuser.

Looking at the front wing, the outer spans are the important bits as the middle section is made to the FIA template. Ferrari have a simple initial wing design, supplemented by small cascade wings elements fitted to the end plate (the new rules do not allow bridge wings). The endplates themselves now aim to sweep around the outside of the front tyre: to aid this a small fence has been added to the footplate.

Inside the end plate is the mechanism that will allow the front wing flap to adjust up and down once per lap under the drivers control. There will be no 'nose hole' this year as the new rules preclude it.

Despite the aim of the Overtaking Working Group's derived rules to ban bargeboards, there are a three spots where Ferrari have found space. Two small vanes have been added below the chassis near the lower front wishbone mounts. These are followed by a larger vane low down just ahead of the sidepod.

The sidepod fronts are the main area of aerodynamic freedom, as they are described in the rules as the area for side impact protection and thus excluded from the limitations placed on the three volumes making up the rearward part of the sidepod. To exploit this, Ferrari have shortened the sidepod front as much as possible to allow more vanes to be added.

As this area still needs to contain the side impact protection, a curious extension to the upper front of the sidepod has been added. Nick Tombazis said this was for aerodynamic reasons rather than for a side impact structure.

The rearward bargeboard encroaches into this area and a pod wing rises up from the floor to also form the rear view mirror housing. Further back along the sidepod, the F60 makes the most of the openings allowed under the rules for cooling. Both the exhaust outlet area is maximised as well as the opening, supposedly for suspension to pass through.

Despite these openings and the 18,000rpm limit, the sidepods still need more cooling outlets and the coke bottle shape extends to the rear axle line in order to create the main exit, which is almost oval in shape"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72741

:laugh:

You may be right but I doubt it. Having to use your "legalese" to split hairs in disproving something you suggested in the first place is a first even for you :D

"Suggested" is not the same as "Certainly".

[trumperZ06]

LOL nice trolling :)

:rolleyes: Hhmmm... once again a

Typical Ferrari fanboi response when one's ignorance results in him being unable to format an intelligent reply !!!

:dozey: Then again, Ferrari's past indiscretions doesn't leave much doubt about their integrity !!!

[Daniel]

:rolleyes: Hhmmm... once again a

Typical Ferrari fanboi response when one's ignorance makes him unable to format an intelligent reply !!!

:dozey: Then again, Ferrari's past indiscretions doesn't leave much doubt about their integrity !!!

LOL nice trolling :)

[trumperZ06]

According to Mark Hughes in Autosport, the FIA regulations prevent the use of cooling slats in the upper bodywork. No mention of the exhausts in his article, nor in the Autosport technical insight on the F60 on the webpage...

"Slightly shorter than the F2008, the F60 cleverly exploits every blind spot in the bodywork rules to recoup the 50% loss in downforce from its smaller wings and diffuser.

Looking at the front wing, the outer spans are the important bits as the middle section is made to the FIA template. Ferrari have a simple initial wing design, supplemented by small cascade wings elements fitted to the end plate (the new rules do not allow bridge wings). The endplates themselves now aim to sweep around the outside of the front tyre: to aid this a small fence has been added to the footplate.

Inside the end plate is the mechanism that will allow the front wing flap to adjust up and down once per lap under the drivers control. There will be no 'nose hole' this year as the new rules preclude it.

Despite the aim of the Overtaking Working Group's derived rules to ban bargeboards, there are a three spots where Ferrari have found space. Two small vanes have been added below the chassis near the lower front wishbone mounts. These are followed by a larger vane low down just ahead of the sidepod.

The sidepod fronts are the main area of aerodynamic freedom, as they are described in the rules as the area for side impact protection and thus excluded from the limitations placed on the three volumes making up the rearward part of the sidepod. To exploit this, Ferrari have shortened the sidepod front as much as possible to allow more vanes to be added.

As this area still needs to contain the side impact protection, a curious extension to the upper front of the sidepod has been added. Nick Tombazis said this was for aerodynamic reasons rather than for a side impact structure.

The rearward bargeboard encroaches into this area and a pod wing rises up from the floor to also form the rear view mirror housing. Further back along the sidepod, the F60 makes the most of the openings allowed under the rules for cooling. Both the exhaust outlet area is maximised as well as the opening, supposedly for suspension to pass through.

Despite these openings and the 18,000rpm limit, the sidepods still need more cooling outlets and the coke bottle shape extends to the rear axle line in order to create the main exit, which is almost oval in shape"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72741

:dozey: Quoting a Jan. 12th (a first review type) article...

to refute later reports... including F-1 team managers (Jan. 18, 19, 20th) is really a "reach" !!!

;) Not great on ethics but nice try though !!!



:p : Oh, and about my earlier comment referencing Ferrari...

"It ain't Cheating... if you don't get caught" !!!

Enzo Ferrari was involved in Formula One (Alfa Romeo/Scuderia Ferrari 1933) long before his very own car brand arrived on the grid !!!

Before that era, information is very sketchy... maybe someone else also had the same philosophy... maybe, just not sure.

[ArrowsFA1]

Frankly I don't give two hoots if teams don't run to the regs in pre-season testing. That's entirely up to them. Australia at the end of March is what matters.

[mstillhere]

Okay, I was a bit harsh there. I apologise.

Does the steering wheel count as a wheel? ;)


And - I'm not sure I see a purpose in unveiling car that is illegal (if this is the case) unless they are masking further developments from the competition.


Peace :)

[ioan]

:dozey: Ferrari design has such an oblivious visible infaction...

that no one expects them to submit that car for scrutineering @ Australia.

:) That truly begs the question... is there something else Ferrari is doing/hoping they can sneak it by when inspected ?

:rolleyes: It's not like it would be the "first time"...

That Ferrari would make such an attempt !!!

;) Which probably explains the over zealous reaction by Ferrari Fanbois...

To the press's and competitive teams questioning Ferrari's design.

What's your name, cute little troll?!

[mstillhere]

Good lord, what a bloody mess :(

As soon as someone raises a question about the Ferrari, we have the usual crew going on about Ferrari haters and carrying on as if their mother has been insulted :rolleyes:

Come on people. The exhausts and mirors are not being raced in Australia are they? However, they are being tested in public and people are going to comment on them. Whats wrong with that?

It's similar to McLaren running a hybrid of last years rear wing. They're obviously doing it for comparison and benchmark reasons but have no intention of racing it.

I agree with you 100%. But then some guy comes in and makes some poisonous remarks calling Ferrari cheaters and ther you go again. Some people I truly believe like to start trouble. They know what buttons to push just for mere sadistic pleasure. It's revolting.

[mstillhere]

I thought this thread was supposed to discuss the legality or otherwise of the Ferrari.

Nobody says he has to open the discussion out to other cars as the thread didn't cover that subject.

However, the subject of the McLaren rear wing was raised and as such I attempted to cover both points. In my opinion, every car out there is legal as there is no requirement for them to adhere to F1 technical regulations during testing.

If either turns up on the Grid in Aus unchanged, then I suggest they would both fail scrutineering but as this is unlikely to happen, it's a moot point.

Posters don't have to be fair and are fully entitled to post their opinion or argument as they see fit. Preferably, they back their opinion up with some sort of evidence or collateral as this thread starter has done which is nice to see.

Doesn't happen all the time ;)

On this subject I was reading somewhere else an interesting perspective. It said that the two teams don't want to show their entire arsenal yet. They are waiting to see who comes out with the whole thing first. I personally find it perfectly plausible. You?

[trumperZ06]

:laugh: Now Trumpy. You should know that when you go to the Zoo, you shouldn't feed the animals.

Take yourself to Max's pad for a sound thrashing you naughty boy :D

:D Well gee, Knockie,
What can I say ?

It's been a little boring...

waiting for my first club race (March 7-8-9)

as well as Australia's F-1 ...

;) now that OBAMA'S inauguration is complete.

[Tazio]

Oh yes, I am completely and utterly a Ferrari hater. You've got me sorted, based on no evidence whatsoever.I started the thread, and I bleed Ferrari Red!
The childish banter is totally uncalled for.
I suggest just ignoring the haters! ;)

[Tazio]

Good point...except the title of the thread is "Have Ferrari Crossed the Line Already?" which doesn't exactly promote a feeling of fairness in the post.

Just in the interest of balance, and due to the outrageous (sic) fact that Mclaren are running a 2008 spec wing in Portimao, could you start a thread entitled "Are Mclaren Are At It Again?"

It wouldn't be fair, but it would even things up.
It wasn't meant to be an antagonistic thread title. Check my sig.
Was it politically incorrect? Sorrry!
I'll scrutinize my phraseology better in the future :dozey: ;)

[trumperZ06]

I started the thread, and I bleed Ferrari Red!
The childish banter is totally uncalled for.
I suggest just ignoring the haters! ;)

;) The root cause of this thread degenerating from your orginial post is the Ferrari fanbois being over zealous in defending an inquiry by a "specialist German motoring publication". The publication's initial inquiry was "backed up" by comments questioning Ferrari's legality by both BMW and Mercedes team leaders.

:dozey: Some of these guys are so easily "wound up" with anything that questions Ferrari's ethics, that any discussion about Ferrari almost imediately brings in "completely off the subject comments" concerning McLaren and/or other situations.

:rolleyes: Hard to hold an intelligent discussion under such circumstances.

[Daniel]

;) The root cause of this thread degenerating from your orginial post is the Ferrari fanbois being over zealous in defending an inquiry by a "specialist German motoring publication". The publication's initial inquiry was "backed up" by comments questioning Ferrari's legality by both BMW and Mercedes team leaders.

It was more to do with your comments which were designed to get a reaction from people :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Was it politically incorrect?
Your thread title asked a question and invited discussion. Perfectly reasonable thing to do on a motorsport forum IMHO.

:dozey: Quoting a Jan. 12th (a first review type) article...

to refute later reports... including F-1 team managers (Jan. 18, 19, 20th) is really a "reach" !!!

;) Not great on ethics but nice try though !!!

Well, Autosport didn't pick up on it, so maybe it's not as cut-&-dried as you think?

Either that, or it's such a well known fact that launch-spec cars are not subject to scrutineering rules so it doesn't actually matter?



Enzo Ferrari was involved in Formula One (Alfa Romeo/Scuderia Ferrari 1933) long before his very own car brand arrived on the grid !!!

Really? You don't say? Anyone would think that was an astonishing previously unknown fact.



Before that era, information is very sketchy... maybe someone else also had the same philosophy... maybe, just not sure.

So until Mr Ferrari came along, nobody had bent the rules? Yes, of course, because up until then nobody in the world was sly, crafty or willing to try it on.

[CNR]

to quote bernie

"It's bad for me to say this, but the only team we would really say we would miss is Ferrari (file:///C:/src/teams/ferrari.php). I wouldn't want to lose McLaren (file:///C:/src/teams/mclaren.php) for sure. I wouldn't want to lose Williams,"

[mstillhere]

:rolleyes: Hhmmm... once again a

Typical Ferrari fanboi response when one's ignorance results in him being unable to format an intelligent reply !!!

:dozey: Then again, Ferrari's past indiscretions doesn't leave much doubt about their integrity !!!

Are you forgetting some other team who also has a very negative (recent) past record or you are still in denial?
PS You are definetly a lsot case.

PPSS Some people are ignorant tha's a fact. But what's worse are those people who chose to be "ignorant" meaning chosing to "ignore" what's not convenient for them and cherry picking whatever they say and therefore creating their own reality which is. obviously, way far from the truth. How sad.

[mstillhere]

Eh, where have you been recently then - locked in the pantry? ;)

I had quite few months of aggravated depression. Only now I am starting recovering and I already am getting depressed again. I should go back in the pantry. it was so nice and quiet in there. So.....dark....... :)

[mstillhere]

:dozey:
:p : Oh, and about my earlier comment referencing Ferrari...

"It ain't Cheating... if you don't get caught" !!!

Enzo Ferrari was involved in Formula One (Alfa Romeo/Scuderia Ferrari 1933) long before his very own car brand arrived on the grid !!!

Before that era, information is very sketchy... maybe someone else also had the same philosophy... maybe, just not sure.

And it's us changing subject? You are a proven trouble maker. You got NOTHING to say and you start digging in prehistoric news. You know, I think you should be banned for continuing starting trouble and for wasting our time in reading your senseless posts. Yawnnnnnn....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Daniel]

And it's us changing subject? You are a proven trouble maker. You got NOTHING to say and you start digging in prehistoric news. You know, I think you should be banned for continuing starting trouble and for wasting our time in reading your senseless posts. Yawnnnnnn....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Don't feed the Norwegian :)

[mstillhere]

It was more to do with your comments which were designed to get a reaction from people :)

I definetly second that. He is the one who started all this. The "intelligent" guy.

[SGWilko]

farterZ06

Are we resorting petty and childish namecalling again?

Have your opinion by all means, but when you resort to namecalling, no-one is likely to take you seriously.

[Daniel]

Are we resorting petty and childish namecalling again?

Have your opinion by all means, but when you resort to namecalling, no-one is likely to take you seriously.

:confused:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trump

[SGWilko]

:confused:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trump

Justifies namecalling completely - well done...

[Daniel]

Justifies namecalling completely - well done...

I'm quite proud too :)

So mindless trolling is fine but a silly little name isn't? :)

[SGWilko]

I'm quite proud too :)

So mindless trolling is fine but a silly little name isn't? :)

I'm not trolling Daniel, far from it. I just don't think namecalling is acceptable, and certainly just because you dissagree with the particular posters' opinion.

[SGWilko]

And it's us changing subject? You are a proven trouble maker. You got NOTHING to say and you start digging in prehistoric news. You know, I think you should be banned for continuing starting trouble and for wasting our time in reading your senseless posts. Yawnnnnnn....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

If you stop rising to it, he will lose interest. The more he gets a reaction, the more he will do it.

See, I am (for my sins!) a McLaren supporter, mainly because of Lewis and because Williams have lost their way....

I gave up kicking against those who stir up all the usual McLaren nonsense yonks ago. I will admit that McLaren made many mistakes, but I do think they never intended any malice.

[Knock-on]

Your thread title asked a question and invited discussion. Perfectly reasonable thing to do on a motorsport forum IMHO.

Burn the witch. BURN THE WITCH

[Daniel]

I'm not trolling Daniel, far from it. I just don't think namecalling is acceptable, and certainly just because you dissagree with the particular posters' opinion.

I never said you were trolling :mark:

[Knock-on]

On this subject I was reading somewhere else an interesting perspective. It said that the two teams don't want to show their entire arsenal yet. They are waiting to see who comes out with the whole thing first. I personally find it perfectly plausible. You?

What, tea,s trying to maintain an advantage and not show their knickers to all and sundry. You sure ;)