Testing prior to 2009 F1 season

[jens]

So from 19th to 22nd January we will finally get first comparisons between the newly-launched 2009 challengers, when TF109, MP4/24 and also FW31 and R29 (both will be launched tomorrow) will be testing at Algarve. Also Red Bull obviously with its 09-interim car. Ferrari was supposed to test together with them, but due to bad weather in Portugal has opted for Mugello.

BMW will launch on January 20, but for now they have decided to start preparing for the new season away from other teams by testing alone at Valencia from 20th to 22nd Jan.

Anyway, exciting days are coming. With limited testing opportunities during '09 the importance of having a car, which is quick straight out of the box, is even bigger. Can't wait for tomorrow. First signs and discussions about "who is where in the pecking order of 2009." :s mokin:

[ioan]

Here they go!

Portimao, Portugal:

McLaren (using 2008 rear wing, and new exhaust covers others than the ones from the launch):

http://www.motorsport-total.com/bilder/2009/090119/z1232362887.jpg

Toyota (installed a grill instead of KERS :D ):

http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/tests03/diapo_149.jpg

Renault (with the block nose, and the McDonalds Mustard/Ketchup livery):

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/117170.jpg

Williams, sorry it already crashed.

Laptimes around noon:

1. S. Buemi Toro Rosso STR3 (2008 car) 1:41.528 29 pit
2. P. de la Rosa McLaren MP4-24 (2009 car with 2008 rear wing) 1:46.076 +4.548 22 pit
3. N. Hülkenberg Williams FW31 (2009 car) 1:46.335 +4.807 16 pit
4. K. Kobayashi Toyota TF109 (2009 car) 1:50.989 +9.461 24 pit
5. N. Piquet Jr. Renault R29 (2009 car) 1:52.448 +10.920 12 pit



Somewhere else a real beauty:

http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/photonews/raw/re219y8oX_20090119.jpg

[ioan]

Looks like the red car is doing wonderful.
Even if the rain didn't give up all day long, Kimi put 54 laps on it with no technical problems being reported.

[jens]

A shame the weather was so bad at Portimao today, so it's really difficult to evalute, how was any car performing. I see that most teams have given youngsters the opportunity to put in the first laps of their new cars. Interesting choice to me - wouldn't it be more valuable to let a more experienced driver give the first feedback of a new challenger?

[yodasarmpit]

The Ferrari looks great from that angle.

[ArrowsFA1]

Renault (with the block nose, and the McDonalds Mustard/Ketchup livery)
:laugh: :s mokin:

[Robinho]

i love the Renault, it looks like a proper 70's throwback

[BTCC2]

That Ferrari looks sensational.

[Tazio]

That Ferrari looks sensational.

:up:

[ioan]

And another one of the beautiful red machine:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/Ajacied/ngenfdbvgd.jpg

:)

[ioan]

Different wake behind the 2008 and 2009 cars:

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/u3bsm0w91.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/ucubqupm11.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/gu4slusp5.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/9rcbi89y6.jpg

[ioan]

A great comparo of the 6 new single seaters already launched:

http://www.pitlanefanatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=550&sid=b6de2ac8e3168854650bdf58fe8ca478

[ioan]

Adding a picture might get the kids interested about it so here's the picture from the above link:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3532/3215200720_71780b6fb3_o.jpg

Credits: http://www.pitlanefanatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=550&sid=b6de2ac8e3168854650bdf58fe8ca478

[Knock-on]

Adding a picture might get the kids interested about it so here's the picture from the above link:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3532/3215200720_71780b6fb3_o.jpg

Credits: http://www.pitlanefanatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=550&sid=b6de2ac8e3168854650bdf58fe8ca478

Superb pictures ioan :up:

If these pictures are to scale, and they look to be, it seems the comparison we were using before was wrong.

Ferrari has the 3rd shortest wheelbase and is shorter than the McLaren.

Also the water trails are very telling. Looks like the new FIA aero regs have done the job and credit to them.

[leopard]

Renault will run the coolest funkiest car ever.

[SGWilko]

Renault will run the coolest funkiest car ever.

An F1 car is only truly beautiful when it is winning every other Sunday!

[ShiftingGears]

Adding a picture might get the kids interested about it so here's the picture from the above link:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3532/3215200720_71780b6fb3_o.jpg

Credits: http://www.pitlanefanatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=550&sid=b6de2ac8e3168854650bdf58fe8ca478

Nice find.

[ioan]

Different wake behind the 2008 and 2009 cars:

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/u3bsm0w91.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/ucubqupm11.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/gu4slusp5.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/9rcbi89y6.jpg


Sorry guys, it seems that the pics don't work anymore.

Try searching them directly on http://www.f1today.nl, if I'm not mistaken they were taken during yesterday's chilly test session in Portugal.

[ioan]

Up to date comments from the Portuguese test track:

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f1today.nl%2Flive-update%2F2009%2F01%2F21%2Fautdromo-internacional-do-algarve%2F%0D%0A&sl=nl&tl=en&history_state0=

It's only the funny google translation of a Dutch site, but it's all I've got.

[Daniel]

Sorry guys, it seems that the pics don't work anymore.

Try searching them directly on www.f1today.nl (http://www.f1today.nl), if I'm not mistaken they were taken during yesterday's chilly test session in Portugal.

THe pics still work :)

I'm not sure if the wake is that different, the sunlight seems to highlight the wake of the 2008 car quite a bit

[ioan]

THe pics still work :)

Maybe their site was having an update or something as the pics were not showing here nor on their site, when I posted.



I'm not sure if the wake is that different, the sunlight seems to highlight the wake of the 2008 car quite a bit

The angle, height and length are different though.

[ioan]

McLaren and Toyota experienced engine problems today.

The Toyota might have been grilled.
McLaren say that the ECU switched of the engine because the parameters were not in the normal range.
It seems that given the engine restrictions for testing they prefer to have the engines saved by the ECU shutting them off.

[jens]

Comparing the spray left by both '08 and '09 cars, it may be possible to guess that this year both visibility and hence passing will be easier in wet weather races?

The car comparison pictures are interesting too. Still very difficult to tell, who could be where in the pecking order. Just however to look at these very different racing cars, everyone seemingly have their strengths and weaknesses. But an F1 car is about compromises, so time will tell, who has done these the least.

[Knock-on]

I think the telling thing about the spray is that it appears dissipated and less intense in the 09 cars.

I hope this will mean that the disrupted air wont prohibit a following car from closing as it does now.

Who knows, it may even give a bit of a tow ;)

[Daniel]

Maybe their site was having an update or something as the pics were not showing here nor on their site, when I posted.



The angle, height and length are different though.

Could be because of a lot of things. Good observation though, we'll see how much difference there is during wet races.

[Tazio]

Different wake behind the 2008 and 2009 cars:

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/u3bsm0w91.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/ucubqupm11.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/gu4slusp5.jpg
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/9rcbi89y6.jpg

:up:

[ArrowsFA1]

I hope this will mean that the disrupted air wont prohibit a following car from closing as it does now.
Jarno Trulli said this about driving the '09 cars in the wet:

"There is a massive drop in downforce and grip. In the conditions it was very difficult to get temperature in the tyres. It was really hard for everyone out there and it was nearly impossible to drive. This is the first feeling!"
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72914

[F1boat]

ahhh... guess that the cars are not so ugly as I initially thought... to put it mildly.

[Knock-on]

Jarno Trulli said this about driving the '09 cars in the wet:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72914

I wasn't referring to the wet but overtaking in general.

If they need more heat in the wet, they're going to have to do what's always been done. Crank on some more wing and sacrifice speed :)

[Knock-on]

ahhh... guess that the cars are not so ugly as I initially thought... to put it mildly.

When you look at an 08 car now, they do look very squat and when you see the cleaner lines of the 09 cars, they do look nice.

I'm coming round to them more and more (although the Renault still looks a pig :p )

[Bezza]

Can't wait for the season to start now. Annoyed that it begins in LATE March as opposed to early March as has been the norm.

The Renault is the most unusual F1 car I've seen for a long time, but I have sneaky suspicion that its going to be very good. Also I have a feeling the Williams will be good too.

[ArrowsFA1]

I wasn't referring to the wet but overtaking in general.
Oh yeah, so you were :dozey: Ooops :p

[Dzeidzei]

Can't wait for the season to start now. Annoyed that it begins in LATE March as opposed to early March as has been the norm.

The Renault is the most unusual F1 car I've seen for a long time, but I have sneaky suspicion that its going to be very good. Also I have a feeling the Williams will be good too.

Well, Nico was 0,5 secs faster than Hamilton yesterday. FA was 2 secs slower than Nico. So you will have 50 percent of your feelings right. Makes you almost psychic.

I cannot believe that Renault could be fast. It is so ugly. A car is beautiful if it wins races, but ugly cars are never fast :)

[ShiftingGears]

Well, Nico was 0,5 secs faster than Hamilton yesterday. FA was 2 secs slower than Nico. So you will have 50 percent of your feelings right. Makes you almost psychic.

I cannot believe that Renault could be fast. It is so ugly. A car is beautiful if it wins races, but ugly cars are never fast :)

I'll be very surprised if not one team makes a total balls-up of the new regulations.

[jens]

Toyota was faster than Renault too, despite serious lack of running yesterday, so maybe there is still some hope too - and they need it badly to survive in F1. :p :

But generally these tests were a huge disappointment. Besides yesterday's afternoon in dry conditions we've got almost no information whatsoever. I remember a year ago after first week of testing it already became visible that Ferrari was the car to beat with McLaren following and BMW struggling with balance problems (which they solved later though).

And generally I don't like these current (winter) testing rules. Only 4-5 cars on track per day (due to the engine and other rules), in the past there could have been 15-20 drivers on track, giving us a lot to discuss about every week. Now we have a two-week pause and no chances of gathering more information about new cars. :dozey:

[Tazio]

Christian Silk, Chief Test Engineer: "Although it has been a wet week, overall it has been an encouraging first test with the new car. At the moment the main things we are concentrating on are reliability and safety and in those respects the car has been excellent. It's disappointing how the weather has worked out this week as we couldn't look at the performance and could only really put mileage on the car. We're now looking forward to the Jerez test next month where we can hopefully get down to some proper performance work."
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=101147&newlang=&topic=20&catid=
It's a little early to write Renault off!
Let's see how the car works in Spain!

[jens]

So, tomorrow starts the second round of the F1 Winter Testing season. Due to weather conditions and dispersion of teams on different circuits we got only little answers in January, which creates even more attention about forthcoming days.

This time the teams have been divided into two groups with three factory teams (Ferrari, BMW, Toyota) having a 4 plus 4 day testing marathon at Sakhir with a 2-day break between those two phases. With shiny weather basically guaranteed, the expectations and excitement is high to finally start getting some answers about everyone's readiness for the new season. Also, in January those three teams never tested together, so for comparisons between those three we basically start with a blank sheet of paper. The second group of new 2009 challengers (McLaren, Renault, Williams and newly-launched Red Bull) will test at Jerez during the next week with the new RB5 circling around alone tomorrow and others joining them from Tuesday onwards.

Odd, I'm more excited before test sessions than before a GP. :p :

[ioan]

Lap times are pretty close in Bahrain, till now:

http://www.f1today.nl/nieuws/2009/02/10/kubica-zet-snelste-ochtendtijd-in-bahrein/

Meanwhile the other teams had some rain in Jerez.

[driveace]

Who can tell me if OR when there is any testing at Valencia (Cheste) in February or March this year(2009)

[ioan]

Who can tell me if OR when there is any testing at Valencia (Cheste) in February or March this year(2009)

Not sure but I think the remaining test sessions will be in Jerez, Bahrain and Barcelona.

[ioan]

Lap times for the first day of testing in Bahrain:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Glock Toyota (B) 1:33.501 82
2. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:33.615 98
3. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:33.702 95

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73209

Differences are minimal and Toyota are looking good, but it's only testing.

Worth noting that they are only a few tenths of a second short of the 2008 race lap record.

[ioan]

Do they also have aero problems with the McL's?!

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/jihkevte1.jpg

They were almost 0.5 seconds slower than the fresh RB5 and also slower than Williams. The only slower car is that dog of a Renault.

[RJL25]

good start for the RB5, quick straight out of the box.

But as always, the quickest lap time of the day is fairly meaningless in pre-season testing, what really counts is the long run pace which unfortunately we don't have access too

[Garry Walker]

Worth noting that they are only a few tenths of a second short of the 2008 race lap record.
But over 3 seconds from the testing times they did at the same time last season...

Massa apparently did his time on a 15 lap stint.

[leopard]

Is McLaren now a chameleon went green when overtaking Honda?

[Ranger]

Nah, Heikki just ran over Dipsy:
http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.teletubbies.co.uk/en/images/pic-meet-char-dipsy.jpg&usg=AFQjCNGAcuZ_v5eFzc642sZE_sfv_FL9iA

RIP Dipsy.

[Ranger]

Nah, Heikki just ran over Dipsy:
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8014/dipsyshat.jpg

Fortunately Heikki was unhurt.

[Ranger]

At Bahrain, great photo
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/1ai9uonz1.jpg

I've got a feeling that RB5 is damn good if the guy with the busted leg goes faster than a McLaren, Williams, Renault.

Testing livetiming:
http://directo.thef1.es/tests/

[ioan]

I've got a feeling that RB5 is damn good if the guy with the busted leg goes faster than a McLaren, Williams, Renault.


Also worth mentioning is that they use the 2008 rear wing on the McLaren, again, so their times are looking better than yesterday but meaningless.
This, coupled with the use of the flow visualizing liquid yesterday makes me wonder if they have some trouble with the aero of rear of the car.

[Ranger]

Also worth mentioning is that they use the 2008 rear wing on the McLaren, again, so their times are looking better than yesterday but meaningless.
This, coupled with the use of the flow visualizing liquid yesterday makes me wonder if they have some trouble with the aero of rear of the car.

Yep I'm pretty sure you're right with that one.

Anyone heard of 'Sportlife'? It apparently reports that HK was at best 2 seconds slower with the '09 rear wing when it was thrown on today.

That sounds like they are quite a way up the creek if that's true.

[Garry Walker]

Yep I'm pretty sure you're right with that one.

Anyone heard of 'Sportlife'? It apparently reports that HK was at best 2 seconds slower with the '09 rear wing when it was thrown on today.

That sounds like they are quite a way up the creek if that's true.

Of course you will be much slower with the new rear wing than with the old one. That is expected and normal. At the moment he is doing very long stints with the new rear wing, but I can`t say how his times are in comparison to others, because I have no access to stint times.

Whilst I am always hopeful McLaren have problems, I would not count on them being in serious trouble yet. Nor do they have final aero yet on.

That said, they did push with development of last years car more so and for longer than any other team, it might easily come back to haunt them.

[RJL25]

clearly Webber isn't being effected too much by his leg... seriously the man is as tough as a $2 steak

[52Paddy]

At Bahrain, great photo
http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/1ai9uonz1.jpg

Is that an effect put on the photo or was there a bad case of smog during the Bahrain test?

Also surprised Buemi was over 3 seconds faster than anybody else in his Toro Rosso. Any explanation for this (the website is in Dutch or something)?

[ioan]

Is that an effect put on the photo or was there a bad case of smog during the Bahrain test?

Also surprised Buemi was over 3 seconds faster than anybody else in his Toro Rosso. Any explanation for this (the website is in Dutch or something)?

That's a sand storm in Bahrain.

Buemi is using a 2008 STR.

[Ranger]

Jerez times:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:17.591 143
2. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:20.799 110
3. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:21.321 83
4. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:21.451 125
5. Piquet Renault (B) 1:21.908 49

Buemi was in the 2008 car.
Kovalainen's best time was with a 2008 rear wing.
The rest were in full 2009 spec.

[jens]

I have been seriously impressed with Red Bull and they may well make anyone's life difficult in 2009. Toyota is another one, who the alleged Top3 teams (Ferrari, McLaren and BMW) should take into serious consideration. McLaren seems to be having some kind of issues, but I wouldn't write them off, so at the moment we have five teams, who seemingly are not too far apart from each other and the championship is still wide-open. :) Williams is "good" and arguably quick over one lap, but generally seems a bit behind others. Renault - well, with every test the suspicion rises that they have indeed cocked up something. The loss of around 1 sec or more isn't huge (3-4 s per lap would be dramatic), but they nonetheless seem behind and it's becoming difficult to see that boxy car fighting for top results this year. It seems that a slim nose, which Red Bull and Toyota have introduced, is a more efficient choice. :p :

[millencolin]

I'm just stoked to see Webdawg back behind the wheel and at pace. The RB5 seems very promising at this stage, lets hope the same can be said in melbourne

[ArrowsFA1]

Also worth mentioning is that they use the 2008 rear wing on the McLaren, again, so their times are looking better than yesterday but meaningless.
This, coupled with the use of the flow visualizing liquid yesterday makes me wonder if they have some trouble with the aero of rear of the car.
Another day, a different picture:

McLaren moved ahead of Red Bull in the times on day two of testing at Jerez, as the the battle to develop 2009's breed of Formula One cars continued.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73226

[52Paddy]

That's a sand storm in Bahrain.

Buemi is using a 2008 STR.

Cheers for that. Interesting comparison between the performance of both years' cars. I doubt that the 09 cars are that much slower than the 08 models. Surely they're just getting used to driving a new machine?

[Ranger]

Another day, a different picture:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73226

How is it a different picture? :confused:

McLaren were still, at best, two seconds slower than the Red Bull in full '09 spec.

They only 'moved ahead' with their 2008 rear wing, and not by much.

[leopard]

For drivers taking the test, such atmospheric disturbance of storm is not nice ...

[ioan]

Another day, a different picture:

McLaren moved ahead of Red Bull in the times on day two of testing at Jerez, as the the battle to develop 2009's breed of Formula One cars continued.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73226

They are still using the 2008 rear wing.

[Robinho]

Pos. Dor. Piloto Equipo Tiempo Diferencia V.

.1º 15 Sebastian Bourdais Toro Rosso 00:01'18''493 59
.2º 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'20''737 00:00'02''244 25
.3º 9 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 00:01'20''738 00:00'02''245 20
.4º 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams 00:01'20''898 00:00'02''405 31
.5º 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'21''307 00:00'02''814 58


times from Jerez so far today, nothing to choose between Red Bull, McLaren and Williams, but Renault, even with Alonso and more laps are still half a second adrift.

Torro Rosso continue to pound round in last years car 2 seconds quicker than everone else.

Meanwhile in hot, Sunny and dry Bahrain....Testing has been suspended again for a sandstorm meaning the medical helicopter can't fly (even if it could i would fancy running an F1 engine with that much sand flying about, can't be good for the cars)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

They are still using the 2008 rear wing.

Why is this?

Maybe they have a re-design of the 2009 rear wing in the pipe-line so are using the 2008 wing to re-create the expected levels or downforce the new wing would produce.

Seems strange

[ioan]

Pos. Dor. Piloto Equipo Tiempo Diferencia V.

.1º 15 Sebastian Bourdais Toro Rosso 00:01'18''493 59
.2º 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'20''737 00:00'02''244 25
.3º 9 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 00:01'20''738 00:00'02''245 20
.4º 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams 00:01'20''898 00:00'02''405 31
.5º 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'21''307 00:00'02''814 58


times from Jerez so far today, nothing to choose between Red Bull, McLaren and Williams,

Well, RB and Wolliams at least use legal parts on their cars! :p :



but Renault, even with Alonso and more laps are still half a second adrift.

It not only is slow, it also looks very slow:

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/scw01prt6.jpg

That nose looks like something I could have modeled with an axe, with closed eyes. :D

[ioan]

Why is this?

Maybe they have a re-design of the 2009 rear wing in the pipe-line so are using the 2008 wing to re-create the expected levels or downforce the new wing would produce.


Maybe, but it's poor showing for a team that claims to be the best and the most advanced after having already worked more than a year on this design.

[ArrowsFA1]

Maybe, but it's poor showing for a team that claims to be the best and the most advanced after having already worked more than a year on this design.
Well, time will tell. Australia is the acid test and until then few people really know the true competitiveness of each of the teams. The new regs might very well provide an opportunity for some surprises :s mokin:

[samuratt]

Pos. Dor. Piloto Equipo Tiempo Diferencia V.

.1º 15 Sebastian Bourdais Toro Rosso 00:01'18''493 59
.2º 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'20''737 00:00'02''244 25
.3º 9 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 00:01'20''738 00:00'02''245 20
.4º 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams 00:01'20''898 00:00'02''405 31
.5º 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'21''307 00:00'02''814 58


times from Jerez so far today, nothing to choose between Red Bull, McLaren and Williams, but Renault, even with Alonso and more laps are still half a second adrift.

Torro Rosso continue to pound round in last years car 2 seconds quicker than everone else.

Meanwhile in hot, Sunny and dry Bahrain....Testing has been suspended again for a sandstorm meaning the medical helicopter can't fly (even if it could i would fancy running an F1 engine with that much sand flying about, can't be good for the cars)

Times when testing are meaningless.

TR is driving with last year's cars.
ML is drivinig with last year's rear wing (though adjusted to expected downforce, I suppose is not like driving the 2009 model)

Then you have the rest: Redbull, Williams and Renault. Where Redbull is the only time not driving with KERS.

If you were following the test, and looking at the laptimes and the stints they have done, you must have noted that:
- Soft tyres are wearing too much and make all the cars drop their performance quite a lot after a few laps.
- Harder tyres are more consistent
- On longer stints (up to 20 laps), Renault was laping as consistent as the Willimas and the Redbull if not even a little better.
- While Hamilton set his fastest time on a 6 laps stint, Fernando did it on a 20 laps stint (plus the rear wing differnece).
- Fernando was the driver with more laps at the end.

There for we can conclude that, not knowing what everyone is doing, the final fastest times of the session are meaningless.

cheers, and as Arrows said we shall get a better picture once the Australian GP starts!

[truefan72]

Well, RB and Wolliams at least use legal parts on their cars! :p :




It not only is slow, it also looks very slow:

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/scw01prt6.jpg

That nose looks like something I could have modeled with an axe, with closed eyes. :D

I am concerned about the Renault. That nose cannot possibly help with aerodynamics and probably is a major factor in their overall pace.i can only hope that they quickly redesign it for the start of the season, or by the time they get to Spain. I really can't understand what the technical staff was trying to achieve with this design.

[RJL25]

i remember the pre-season testing when Mark Webber first went to Williams, I was desperately trying to justify Williams slow testing times, talking about how test times are meaningless and all the rest of it, but come Melbourne the testing came true, Williams where SLOW

It certainly used to be the case the pre-season testing was meaningless, however in recent years its actually been a fairly reliable form guide

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Maybe, but it's poor showing for a team that claims to be the best and the most advanced after having already worked more than a year on this design.

Maybe they want to keep there 2009-spec wing under wraps from the other teams?

[ioan]

Maybe they want to keep there 2009-spec wing under wraps from the other teams?

And find out in the last moment that is not working?! That would be suicide given that there is a testing ban for he whole season.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45472000/jpg/_45472893_hamdrive416g.jpg

I have to say that the wider wing makes the car look really good.

[gloomyDAY]

I'm really excited for Red Bull. Their car will need a lot more time to reach the top manufacturers, but the rules are certainly making life a lot easier on this small budget team. Being only 1 thousandth of a second off the pace of a McLaren is something to smile about if you're rooting for the underdog.


i remember the pre-season testing when Mark Webber first went to Williams, I was desperately trying to justify Williams slow testing times, talking about how test times are meaningless and all the rest of it, but come Melbourne the testing came true, Williams where SLOW

It certainly used to be the case the pre-season testing was meaningless, however in recent years its actually been a fairly reliable form guideFair point. Ferrari were at the top of the time sheets last year during pre-season practice and come race day they had much faster pace. Everyone else was playing catch up to Ferrari!

[RJL25]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45472000/jpg/_45472893_hamdrive416g.jpg

I have to say that the wider wing makes the car look really good.

This photo actually concerns me quite a lot. I would have through that McLaren would have atleast been running their 2008 wing in a low downforce setting to replicate the lower downforce and drag characteristics of the new wing, meaning that there pace would have been quite satisfactory, but to me that wing seems to have quite a lot of angle on it...

What troubles me more is the fact that McLaren are using the 2008 wing at all, they have a 2009 wing, why aren't they using it? Why on earth would you want to test and evaluate an ineligable rear wing? Clearly there are serious problems with their 2009 wing, otherwise they would be using it.

This is McLaren however, if any team can overcome a problem its them

[RJL25]

oh and DAYAM that Renault is UUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGLLYYYYYYYYYYYY

[leopard]

The nose is not too much disturbing. Perhaps they do not want to work halfway with feature to gain more advantage from Kers then they try to make it performs optimally trough an extreme cooling inlets. Making it white then make it looks bigger.

But, it doesn't count too much. They put color of partners whom continuously they gain support from. The lion ING looks such a heroic character being there.

[Knock-on]

This photo actually concerns me quite a lot. I would have through that McLaren would have atleast been running their 2008 wing in a low downforce setting to replicate the lower downforce and drag characteristics of the new wing, meaning that there pace would have been quite satisfactory, but to me that wing seems to have quite a lot of angle on it...

What troubles me more is the fact that McLaren are using the 2008 wing at all, they have a 2009 wing, why aren't they using it? Why on earth would you want to test and evaluate an ineligable rear wing? Clearly there are serious problems with their 2009 wing, otherwise they would be using it.

This is McLaren however, if any team can overcome a problem its them

It would be strange if they were still using the rear wing. You only normally do something like that to baseline another part of a car against a part that you know the performance of.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7887072.stm

However, it may not be an up to date picture as BBC claim they were using the '09 spec car and Lewis claims it feels very strong.

Who knows?

It does appear that whatever configuration the McLaren was using, it's putting some strong times in. Renault on the other hand ran a full day but were wayyy down.

The worrying thing for the Bahrain teams is the ongoing disruption to the testing program. It's going to really hurt them.

[Garry Walker]

Renault is doing pretty good times even on long stints, I don`t know if they are using any 2008 parts though.

[ioan]

Fair point. Ferrari were at the top of the time sheets last year during pre-season practice and come race day they had much faster pace. Everyone else was playing catch up to Ferrari!

Oz 2008 didn't look good at all for them, so I'm not sure if you are talking about last year.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This photo actually concerns me quite a lot. I would have through that McLaren would have atleast been running their 2008 wing in a low downforce setting to replicate the lower downforce and drag characteristics of the new wing, meaning that there pace would have been quite satisfactory, but to me that wing seems to have quite a lot of angle on it...



The wing angle may be deceptive. The 2009 wing may be narrower but it is much taller.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Oz 2008 didn't look good at all for them, so I'm not sure if you are talking about last year.

They were a few tenths of a second faster throughout pre-season testing last year, made some mistakes at Oz, but at the next few races the Ferrari's were untouchable.

[Ranger]

On the other hand, despite the hype, BMW were very slow in testing last year and everyone was surprised to see Kubica nearly take pole in Melbourne.

Renault are quite fast today, Red Bull have only done 9 laps... :\

[Robinho]

Pos. Dor. Piloto Equipo Tiempo Diferencia V.

.1º 15 Sebastian Bourdais Toro Rosso 00:01'17''472 73
.2º 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'19''846 00:00'02''374 75
.3º 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'20''263 00:00'02''791 42
.4º 9 Mark Webber Red Bull 00:01'21''837 00:00'04''365 17
.5º 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams 00:99'99''999 01:39'22''527 34
.6º 7 Nico Rosberg Williams 00:99'99''999 01:39'22''527 18

today the renault is stil ugly, but also faster out and out pace, not sure what stints are being done, as usual, but still a massive improvemment in ultimate pace overthe last few days

my thoughts on the Mclaren "wing gate" is they've perhaps got some structural issues which need addressing, rather than performance ones, and are using an adjusted 2008 one until a revised 2009 is ready again - at least i hope this is the case, rather than a massive performance deficit, but who knows, i imagine they'll tell us eventually

[ioan]

my thoughts on the Mclaren "wing gate" is they've perhaps got some structural issues which need addressing, rather than performance ones, and are using an adjusted 2008 one until a revised 2009 is ready again - at least i hope this is the case, rather than a massive performance deficit, but who knows, i imagine they'll tell us eventually

Nah, they will never tell us the truth, call me whatever you wish but I'm yet to see McLaren telling the truth in situations that would show them even in a slightly bad light. Too much self-esteem, me thinks.
Last year BMW acknowledged only after the season's start that they had aero-troubles.

[gloomyDAY]

Oz 2008 didn't look good at all for them, so I'm not sure if you are talking about last year.I knew someone was going to throw Oz into the mix, but I think my point still stands. Both Kimi and Felipe were fast, but their poor results came down to foul-ups. After Oz it was nothing but Ferrari at the top of ALL time sheets and races.

[jens]

Today's testing at Sakhir has ended too:
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/testresults.php?testID=1106
1 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 01:33.325 105
2 J. Trulli Toyota 01:33.429 127
3 C. Klien BMW 01:33.666 125

I have to say I have never been so upbeat and optimistic about Toyota's prospects during preseason period as I am now. :p : 2007 was the height of pessimism-period as due to stagnation in midfield it was really difficult to see, how could they start rising. But the progress shown during 2008 created belief that they have finally understood, what does it take to make a competitive car and have started moving forward, which hopefully will continue in 2009. The expectations are high and they have to be, since 09 is literrally a "now or never" year for TF1. When last year Toyota lost by less than a second to Ferrari at Sakhir in preseason testing, then it seemed good, but by now the standards have risen - they have to match the Prancing Horse and the Beemers to reach their goals - task they have been fulfilling fine so far. Also it's worth taking into consideration that Toyota has always been better in the actual season than in winter testing, where they have usually been backmarkers, so from this point of view things are looking very promising.

Generally I have to say I have never seen such exciting winter testing season. In the past years usually by mid-February about 2-3 teams have seemed to be clear of others and become clear title favourites. But at the moment it seems almost everyone is still in the game, which I find quite amazing since it was predicted that with radical rule changes the gaps between teams will increase. Also the cars look so different from each other, which theoretically could enlarge the gaps, but look, what has happened. :p : But I can't believe some 6-7 teams will be fighting for wins and podiums, so something has to be clarified yet. Either someone is hiding its weaknesses really well or someone is sandbagging.

But to come back to the McLaren issue - well, the fact that they are still testing with 08 rear wing, is indicating problems. Whether the problem is fixable and they still can become notable contenders or they have seriously cocked it up, remains to be seen. Quite incredible, I have to say, since I expected McLaren to nail the new rules better than anyone else...

[gloomyDAY]

Today's testing at Sakhir

1. Klien BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.544 131
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:32.804 116
3. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:33.064 141

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73320

[ioan]

Thanks for the test times! :up: :)

[jens]

I was expecting the teams to break into 1:32's sooner or later, finally it happened.
Anyway, it seems BMW isn't really trying to sandbag this year like they did in 2008. In December in "secret tests" Toyota's car, which was largely already in 2009 configuration, managed laptimes in 1:32.xxx's and got really close to their '08 times, so I think they should be capable of improving the times they have shown so far. It seems they really haven't tried a quali sim yet.

[Bruce D]

I've been keeping a track of the testing times since last year and I've come up with a performance factor for the cars, based on who was testing with them at the time, etc. Unfortunately its not complete so I'll keep updating it as and when more people run with each other and then we'll get a better picture of who has what pace. The lap time I've used is the Oz pole time from last year with 3sec added on as the new cars seem to be around that much slower.

PS. DRIVER CAR TIME GAP
1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:28.187
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 1:28.188 0.001
3 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 1:28.255 0.068
4 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:28.424 0.237
5 Mark Webber Red Bull Renault 1:28.757 0.570
6 Timo Glock Toyota 1:28.809 0.622
7 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:28.817 0.630
8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 1:28.899 0.712
9 Nelson Piquet Renault 1:29.397 1.210
10 Nick Heidfeld BMW 1:29.700 1.513
11 Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 1:29.700 1.513
12 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:29.706 1.519
13 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:29.804 1.617
14 Robert Kubica BMW 1:29.893 1.706

There are some pretty obvious problems so far, namely that BMW have yet to run competitive times against the main bunch, but rather off the pace times with others, while the only other comparison we had was Toyota of Trulli but that was wet and not representative, so the times of Ferrari, BMW and Toyota are questionable at this stage, but the rest are based on times set on the same day as each other where possible to keep things like weather conditions out of the equation.

[ioan]

I've been keeping a track of the testing times since last year and I've come up with a performance factor for the cars, based on who was testing with them at the time, etc. Unfortunately its not complete so I'll keep updating it as and when more people run with each other and then we'll get a better picture of who has what pace. The lap time I've used is the Oz pole time from last year with 3sec added on as the new cars seem to be around that much slower.

PS. DRIVER CAR TIME GAP
1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:28.187
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 1:28.188 0.001
3 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 1:28.255 0.068
4 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:28.424 0.237
5 Mark Webber Red Bull Renault 1:28.757 0.570
6 Timo Glock Toyota 1:28.809 0.622
7 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:28.817 0.630
8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 1:28.899 0.712
9 Nelson Piquet Renault 1:29.397 1.210
10 Nick Heidfeld BMW 1:29.700 1.513
11 Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 1:29.700 1.513
12 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:29.706 1.519
13 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:29.804 1.617
14 Robert Kubica BMW 1:29.893 1.706

There are some pretty obvious problems so far, namely that BMW have yet to run competitive times against the main bunch, but rather off the pace times with others, while the only other comparison we had was Toyota of Trulli but that was wet and not representative, so the times of Ferrari, BMW and Toyota are questionable at this stage, but the rest are based on times set on the same day as each other where possible to keep things like weather conditions out of the equation.

Now that is one interesting piece of whatever it is, I don't know what algorithm you used to produce it, but given the differences (up to 1 second) there are between team mates from Toyota and Ferrari, whom are pretty evenly matched in reality, the results look highly improbable.

Maybe, for a start, you should try to use Q2 times from Barcelona as a base and not Oz Q3 results, first because Q3 is influenced by race strategy, than because being the first race it is not at all representative for the performance of a car, and 3rd because Barcelona is the track where a car shows it's real potential.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73330

Today's times:
1. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:32.102 103
2. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:32.230 149
3. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.585 104

Times have once again improved and the TF109 has continually been the most problemfree car. :D Sure enough, they are the only ones running without KERS, so could be a bit easier to achieve excellent reliability. With this rate the teams may break even into 1:31's, although probably with lighter fuel loads, which I think would be fairly impressive considering that last year in qualifying the best time was 1:31,1. Trulli has, in fact, already almost matched his times driven in TF108!

As for Bruce D's mathematical calculations, then I must admit that although it's very difficult to tell, I have got the reverse impression - Bahrain group could be a tad bit better than Jerez group. In my view the teams in the Middle-East have had less reliability problems (despite higher temperatures) and also have generally had a smoother and more consistent running. However, there are lots of questionmarks about Jerez teams - McLaren's rear wing, Red Bull is struggling with reliability and Renault's up-and-down performances haven't been convincing either. I find it quite interesting that all those teams, who were expected to test at Barcelona this week (it includes all of the so-called Jerez teams), have abandoned the plans and concentrated on work in the factory. Maybe they don't feel too comfortable with their performance yet...

[truefan72]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73330

Today's times:
1. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:32.102 103
2. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:32.230 149
3. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.585 104

Times have once again improved and the TF109 has continually been the most problemfree car. :D Sure enough, they are the only ones running without KERS, so could be a bit easier to achieve excellent reliability. With this rate the teams may break even into 1:31's, although probably with lighter fuel loads, which I think would be fairly impressive considering that last year in qualifying the best time was 1:31,1. Trulli has, in fact, already almost matched his times driven in TF108!

As for Bruce D's mathematical calculations, then I must admit that although it's very difficult to tell, I have got the reverse impression - Bahrain group could be a tad bit better than Jerez group. In my view the teams in the Middle-East have had less reliability problems (despite higher temperatures) and also have generally had a smoother and more consistent running. However, there are lots of questionmarks about Jerez teams - McLaren's rear wing, Red Bull is struggling with reliability and Renault's up-and-down performances haven't been convincing either. I find it quite interesting that all those teams, who were expected to test at Barcelona this week (it includes all of the so-called Jerez teams), have abandoned the plans and concentrated on work in the factory. Maybe they don't feel too comfortable with their performance yet...

seems that forsaking kers might b e the way to go. i foresee too many problems with it over the course of the year. It would make no difference if you are 6 sec adrift from the guy in front of you, etc.

[Bruce D]

@ ioan - it doesn't matter what lap time I use, thats just a figure to give the impression of what the grid times may look like at Melbourne. I could use any base lap time.

This is how it works - I've calculated everyone's laptimes that they did as percentages of the quickest time around or base times or certain people on the same day. Its complicated and a moving target. For instance, my base before for Kimi and Jarno in Bahrain was Klien, who did one day slower than Heidfeld. Now Heidfeld has done a day at Bahrain, so I can base Kimi and Jarno's times on his time from Portugal when he ran with others, which means they move up the order like you'll see below. The more teams run together the more accurate this table will become. I know that Ferrari and Toyota are in the wrong place right now, but for me the missing link is BMW - once they run at their proper speed against the likes of McLaren or Renault or someone else from Jerez, then Ferrari and Toyota will fall neatly into place.

I agree with Jens, I think Ferrari and Toyota are right up there with BMW banging on the door but because BMW had a poor run at Portugal things are a bit out of order.

1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:28.187
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 1:28.188 0.001
3 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 1:28.255 0.068
4 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:28.424 0.237
5 Mark Webber Red Bull Renault 1:28.757 0.570
6 Timo Glock Toyota 1:28.809 0.622
7 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:28.817 0.630
8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 1:28.899 0.712
9 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:29.237 1.050
10 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:29.360 1.173
11 Nelson Piquet Renault 1:29.397 1.210
12 Nick Heidfeld BMW 1:29.700 1.513
13 Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 1:29.700 1.513
14 Robert Kubica BMW 1:29.893 1.706

[ioan]

@ ioan - it doesn't matter what lap time I use, thats just a figure to give the impression of what the grid times may look like at Melbourne. I could use any base lap time.

I don't agree. Melbourne is an atypical race with an atypical qualifying that says nothing about the pecking order, and even more so if you use Q3 times or places that are influenced by fuel loads.

Try doing it with the Barcelona GP Q2 times and see what it gives. I'm 100% sure the results will be different.


This is how it works - I've calculated everyone's laptimes that they did as percentages of the quickest time around or base times or certain people on the same day. Its complicated and a moving target. For instance, my base before for Kimi and Jarno in Bahrain was Klien, who did one day slower than Heidfeld. Now Heidfeld has done a day at Bahrain, so I can base Kimi and Jarno's times on his time from Portugal when he ran with others, which means they move up the order like you'll see below. The more teams run together the more accurate this table will become. I know that Ferrari and Toyota are in the wrong place right now, but for me the missing link is BMW - once they run at their proper speed against the likes of McLaren or Renault or someone else from Jerez, then Ferrari and Toyota will fall neatly into place.

I agree with Jens, I think Ferrari and Toyota are right up there with BMW banging on the door but because BMW had a poor run at Portugal things are a bit out of order.

Sorry but you are using the wrong initial conditions, BMW didn't run in Portugal this year, they tested alone in Jerez and now are testing with Ferrari and Toyota in Bahrain.

No matter how good your algorithm is if the data you feed it with is wrong or based on an exception than the output is wrong too.

[Bruce D]

Ok, so the Q2 fastest time for Barcelona was Kubica with a 1:20.597. So here is my list with the same time used:

1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:20.597
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 1:20.598 0.001
3 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 1:20.659 0.062
4 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:20.709 0.112
5 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:20.814 0.217
6 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:21.020 0.423
7 Mark Webber Red Bull Renault 1:21.118 0.521
8 Timo Glock Toyota 1:21.165 0.568
9 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:21.173 0.576
10 Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 1:21.247 0.650
11 Nelson Piquet Renault 1:21.703 1.106
12 Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 1:21.980 1.383
13 Nick Heidfeld BMW 1:21.980 1.383
14 Robert Kubica BMW 1:22.156 1.559

Looks the same? Thats cos it is, the only differences will be the laptime and the gap between people because their time is based on a percentage of the laptime. Therefore I can give it whatever lap times makes you happy and it'll give the same result. I was just using Australia as an example because it was the first race.

As for your other point, you are correct. BMW didnt test at Portugal, however they did test with others (McLaren and Williams for example) at Jerez in December and thats where I've got my current data from.

I thought I pointed out in my original post that I knew there were problems with positions of people but that as soon as more people run together things would become clearer. After the final test I'm sure things will look quite a lot different to the current list.


No matter how good your algorithm is if the data you feed it with is wrong or based on an exception than the output is wrong too.


I couldn't agree more, which is why more testing will help make my times look a little bit more realistic. And we still don't really know who's doing what in testing and what cars they will arrive in Aus with, so its all just guesswork right now. Would you like me to stop posting them? Will that make you feel better?

[ioan]

Ok, so the Q2 fastest time for Barcelona was Kubica with a 1:20.597. So here is my list with the same time used:

1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:20.597
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 1:20.598 0.001
3 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 1:20.659 0.062
4 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:20.709 0.112
5 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:20.814 0.217
6 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:21.020 0.423
7 Mark Webber Red Bull Renault 1:21.118 0.521
8 Timo Glock Toyota 1:21.165 0.568
9 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:21.173 0.576
10 Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 1:21.247 0.650
11 Nelson Piquet Renault 1:21.703 1.106
12 Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 1:21.980 1.383
13 Nick Heidfeld BMW 1:21.980 1.383
14 Robert Kubica BMW 1:22.156 1.559

Looks the same?


It doesn't look the same to me. Check the position of team mates that were separated by huge differences (1 second or more) in the previous try and now are separated by only a tenth or so.



I thought I pointed out in my original post that I knew there were problems with positions of people but that as soon as more people run together things would become clearer. After the final test I'm sure things will look quite a lot different to the current list.

I couldn't agree more, which is why more testing will help make my times look a little bit more realistic. And we still don't really know who's doing what in testing and what cars they will arrive in Aus with, so its all just guesswork right now. Would you like me to stop posting them? Will that make you feel better?

I agree with you, if we get them all to run on the same track before the end of the winter testing period than we might have a basis for a more accurate prediction.
However I think that the very last test will be private tests and thus it won't be easy to get the right data.

Cheers,

Ioan

[Bruce D]

It doesn't look the same to me. Check the position of team mates that were separated by huge differences (1 second or more) in the previous try and now are separated by only a tenth or so.

Thats cos its a shorter lap time. If I made it 1min flat they'd be even closer, but relatively speaking if I made it a 3min lap time they'd be quite far apart. Thats how it works in real life too, compare gaps for different races and you'll see, the less the laptime the smaller the gap between cars usually.


I agree with you, if we get them all to run on the same track before the end of the winter testing period than we might have a basis for a more accurate prediction.
However I think that the very last test will be private tests and thus it won't be easy to get the right data.

I just need a Ferrari, BMW or Toyota to run on the same day in the same conditions as say a McLaren or Williams and I think I'd have a more accurate figure. ;)

[gloomyDAY]

These are some competitive practice sessions. Glock is out in front, in a Toyota!

Today's times from Sakhir:

1. Glock Toyota (B) 1:32.492 132
2. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:32.917 105
3. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.993 82

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73342

[ioan]

I just need a Ferrari, BMW or Toyota to run on the same day in the same conditions as say a McLaren or Williams and I think I'd have a more accurate figure. ;)

depends if any updates are introduced between now and than! ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Glock would have been fast today. Perfect conditions and the teams have had enough time to dial in the cars.Too bad the Toyota had reliability problems. :(

I was also wondering if they were going to cut into 31's. Massa came so close!

1. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:32.162 113
2. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.225 122
3. Glock Toyota (B) 1:32.445 65

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73354

This just leaves Jerez next month. Which teams are going to be there?

[Tazio]

Glock would have been fast today. Perfect conditions and the teams have had enough time to dial in the cars.Too bad the Toyota had reliability problems. :(

I was also wondering if they were going to cut into 31's. Massa came so close!

1. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:32.162 113
2. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:32.225 122
3. Glock Toyota (B) 1:32.445 65

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73354

This just leaves Jerez next month. Which teams are going to be there?Which teams are physically going to be there?
Or, which teams are going to be there at the front?
Jerez should answer some questions, however I think it may propose more!
My gut tells me It will shake down something like this when it comes to racing!
McLaren, and Ferrari at the top in that order to start the season.
Then a large group in the next tier, including BMW, Renault, T.R., Toyota, followed closely by(if not included with) Red Bull and Williams.
And hopefully Honda pulling up the rear :confused:
Just a guess guys :)

[ioan]

There are two remaining collective tests (Jerez and Barcelona) and maybe a couple days private tests.

Guessing the pecking order is impossible for now. And the differences, at least between the teams testing in Bahrain are small.
I also remember how everyone, me included, thought that Renault was a dog of a car, and yet it shined in the last few testing days.

[jens]

Pecking order is indeed quite difficult to tell.

As for Tazio's expectation of a Ferrari vs McLaren at the top again... Well, I'm hopeful of a change. In 2008 by February it was clear to me that Ferrari and McLaren remain unbeaten that year, in 2009 by this time things are still unclear.

This year's keyword for me is change (and it's not just about the appearance of cars, but also pecking order). If nothing else, then radical changes in regulations must give others some hope of a challenge. I absolutely love it, how innovative the lately less successful teams (Toy, RB, Wil, also Ren) have been, trying to use every gamble to maximise their hopes. On the contrary, McLaren and especially BMW seem to be the most conservative cars! To be honest, I have to admit I would be a bit disappointed if Ferrari and McLaren share the front rows on the grid at Melbourne once again. But I feel the possibility of a change is greater than in previous years and the hopes are high on the likes of BMW, Red Bull and - of course! - Toyota, who have been trailing the legendary teams so far.

[Bruce D]

Right, here's the update to my times pace predicitons following the last 2 days in Bahrain:

PS. DRIVER CAR TIME GAP
1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:20.597
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 1:20.598 0.001
3 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 1:20.659 0.062
4 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:20.814 0.217
5 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1:20.861 0.264
6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:20.918 0.321
7 Nick Heidfeld BMW 1:20.973 0.376
8 Mark Webber Red Bull Renault 1:21.118 0.521
9 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:21.132 0.535
10 Timo Glock Toyota 1:21.165 0.568
11 Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 1:21.247 0.650
12 Nelson Piquet Renault 1:21.703 1.106
13 Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 1:21.980 1.383
14 Robert Kubica BMW 1:22.156 1.559

As you can see, Ferrari and BMW now feature a bit more at the top. Make of that what you will. The Jerez test will help with more data.

[gloomyDAY]

Which teams are physically going to be there?Yes, do you know?

The pack is going to be tight at the front. Let's see what happens at Jerez...

[Tazio]

Yes, do you know?
Yea' a bunch of guys in brightly colored suits!!! :)

[gloomyDAY]

Yea' a bunch of guys in brightly colored suits!!! :) http://www.kevininscoe.com/pub/lol.jpg

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.kevininscoe.com/pub/lol.jpg

WTF?

[ioan]

http://www.kevininscoe.com/pub/lol.jpg

FGS, my grand's horse looked better than this.

[call_me_andrew]

I am concerned about the Renault. That nose cannot possibly help with aerodynamics and probably is a major factor in their overall pace.i can only hope that they quickly redesign it for the start of the season, or by the time they get to Spain. I really can't understand what the technical staff was trying to achieve with this design.

I'm reminded of that huge nose Williams ran a few years back.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/J_p_montoya_usgp_2004.jpg

The nose was actually very aerodynamic. The problem was that its size made it so heavy that it ruined the car's weight distrubution.

[Knock-on]

I'm reminded of that huge nose Williams ran a few years back.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/J_p_montoya_usgp_2004.jpg

The nose was actually very aerodynamic. The problem was that its size made it so heavy that it ruined the car's weight distrubution.

I've never understood this arguement.

Just how much more material would go into this nose?

Mounting points etc would all remain the same. The only thing you have is a minimal increase in weight for a bit of carbon or Kevlar.

250 gramms?

[Tazio]

As I'm sure several teams have! The suspense is freaking killing me :mad:

"We used a standard configuration for the aerodynamics here in Bahrain, with just some minor updates," added the Scuderia's technical director, "The complete one we'll see at the next tests in Jerez and Barcelona, where we will conclude our preparation for the Australian Grand Prix."

http://www.f1technical.net/news/11654

[Roamy]

There are two remaining collective tests (Jerez and Barcelona) and maybe a couple days private tests.

Guessing the pecking order is impossible for now. And the differences, at least between the teams testing in Bahrain are small.
I also remember how everyone, me included, thought that Renault was a dog of a car, and yet it shined in the last few testing days.

Regarding Renault
If the giant pedophile is not worried then neither am I

[Roamy]

FGS, my grand's horse looked better than this.

I'm on probation

so does she (bird that returns to capistrano every year)

[leopard]

someone is envious of Flavio ;)

[call_me_andrew]

I've never understood this arguement.

Just how much more material would go into this nose?

Mounting points etc would all remain the same. The only thing you have is a minimal increase in weight for a bit of carbon or Kevlar.

250 gramms?

I'm sure there's more mass to the nose than that. Keep in mind it does have to meet crash test requirements.

Also consider where that weight is. It's not just towards the front of the car, it's in front of the front tires. That's the worst place for it.

[d_hill39]

Hey guys,the remaining tests that coming up,is it going to be a two car test for the teams,or it still gonna be one car for both drivers.

[Bruce D]

I'm sure there's more mass to the nose than that. Keep in mind it does have to meet crash test requirements.

Also consider where that weight is. It's not just towards the front of the car, it's in front of the front tires. That's the worst place for it.

Not only that but if it was so good aerodynamically, it might have been creating too much downforce at the front and therefore messing up the aerodynamic distribution and balance.

[ioan]

Hey guys,the remaining tests that coming up,is it going to be a two car test for the teams,or it still gonna be one car for both drivers.

The rules do not allow for 2 car test. It's been like this last season too.

[jens]

Considering that also February hasn't given us any significant answers about the pecking order, it would be exciting to see finally all the teams together at Jerez tests, which starts tomorrow. :s mokin: Taking into account that nothing is clarified yet, everyone is in position to try to impress and make as good progress as possible on that twisty circuit. If trying to find a similarity from F1 calendar, then maybe Hungaroring could be a decent comparison? So, who's good there? Temperatures are expected to be lower than 20 degrees, the amount of rainfall is still unclear.

Ferrari was mostly at the top of timesheets in Bahrain. If they manage it again with everyone together, they may well establish themselves as serious contenders for the title.
BMW, who so far has seemed to keep quite a low profile, has to prove that their early concentration on 2009 development was the right path. Although, largely based on last year, one can never be sure any more whether they are sandbagging.
Toyota has to prove that besides Bahrain they can be quick on other circuits too and they are serious about their aspiration of challenging for the wins.
McLaren has to show they have overcome their problems (?) with rear wing/rear end and still fight at the top.
Red Bull has to prove that they have left more gunpowder after a few quick laps after the initial launch of the RB5.
Renault has to show they have continued the progress they seemed to be making in February.
Williams has to continue their quite "good" form so far... on a circuit, which I think should suit them.
Force India has to show that they can follow the positive mood others have possessed so far and show at least a bit of promise.

I suspect answers will remain more unclear in this pre-season than in previous years, but at least something is gonna happen now and we can speculate again. :)

[gloomyDAY]

1. Vettel Red Bull (B) 1:19.055 87
2. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:20.330 63
3. Kobayashi Toyota (B) 1:20.699 79
4. Rosberg Williams (B) 1:21.171 71
5. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:21.292 47
6. Fisichella Force India (B) 1:21.584 31
7. de la Rosa McLaren (B) 1:21.831 94
8. Piquet Renault (B) 1:22.011 52

Needless to say I'm all smiles about the guy in the number 1 bracket. I can only imagine how many teams are sandbagging, but regardless I'm still satisfied with RB's progress.

Anyone else wondering what's up with McLaren? They haven't posted a good time with their 2009 set-up. I think their most competitive time was with their 2008 wing.

One last thing, glad to see Fisi back! I was laughing like a hyena after he made these modest and inconspicuous comments (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73492).

[jens]

First day of Jerez testing is over and interesting enough, as much information as I have gathered about this day, today's events have pretty much confirmed my impressions so far.

Ferrari continually seems as the most serious title contender.
Red Bull and Toyota continually seem quick. In Toyota's case it's worth taking into account that Kobayashi was behind the wheel, so with Trulli and Glock they should be capable of even a stronger performance.
Williams still seems like a "mettlesome midfielder".
BMW still seems modest... and the questions whether they have reserves for more or not, are still in the air.
Renault also remains a questionmark. Probably we have to wait until Alonso takes over from Piquet again, so it would be possible to evaluate the car's performance better.
McLaren - yes - alas still seems in trouble. Arguably DLR's laptimes dropped dramatically with tyre degradation.
And finally Force India. Well, it seems they have managed to continue the positive wave of underdogs and are not embarrassingly slower than others.

[RJL25]

The Australian GP could be awesome for us Aussies if the pre-season testing comes true, or the most epic of dissapointments if it doesn't....

[ioan]

Vettel got that time during a 2 laps stint.
McLare and BMW declared that they were testing 2010 specification tires, so their times are not significant.

You can still compare the rest of them.

[Ranger]

That time from Vettel seems like a glory run. It'd never be a second clear of the Ferrari in normal conditions. Hopefully the car still good on a regular fuel load though.

I still think BMW has something left. They were the ones who campaigned for KERS so at least you'd think they'd have something to show.

[Tazio]

Unofficial morning times from Jerez (02/03/2009):
1. Timo Glock (Toyota) - 1:31.103, 34 laps
2. Robert Kubica (BMW Sauber-BMW) - 1:31.737, 24 laps
3. Nico Rosberg (Williams-Toyota) - 1:32.960, 40 laps
4. Nelson Piquet jr. (Renault) - 1:33.476, 13 laps
5. Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren-Mercedes) - 1:34.554, 29 laps
6. Giancarlo Fisichella (Foce India-Mercedes) - 1:36.180, 10 laps
7. Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull-Renault) - No Time, 19 laps
8. Felipe Massa (Ferrari) - No Time, 0 laps

[ioan]

It will be a wet test day, so nothing relevant again. :\

[pettersolberg29]

All these problems and rain must be annoying for Renault and McLaren who seem to have a lot of development still to do, and also Force India who only have 6 days now to get their car ready!

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73511

1. Glock Toyota (B) 1:30.979 89
2. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:31.327 70
3. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:31.451 114
4. Fisichella Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:31.547 54
5. Vettel Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:32.220 102
6. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:33.371 91
7. Piquet Renault (B) 1:33.476 66

Sure enough it's difficult to evaluate performance in the wet, but conditions were pretty consistent for the whole testing day and Timo was among the quickest ones throughout the day. ;) With every day the feeling and belief that something great is coming, is increasing...

[pettersolberg29]

Are Ferrari just not releasing their times publicly?

[Tazio]

Are Ferrari just not releasing their times publicly?
No! Massa, and Ferrari just chilled in the paddock today! No timed laps!
So the question is, will this give them the option of testing another day, to make up for not running today? :confused:
BTW According to T.P.H.com they were going to run the 2010 spec tires today!

[pettersolberg29]

Why on earth did they do that?

[ioan]

Why on earth did they do that?

They had planed to test the 2010 spec Bridgestones today (dry tires that is), as every one of the teams participating in the 5 days test has to do.
I guess they decided it's not worth losing a day of work on the 2009 specs so they preferred not to go out today.
Also saving mileage for better days and maybe for a private test back at Mugello before the first race.

[Bruce D]

Interesting to note how much the Force India is matching the Williams for pace...

[Garry Walker]

They had planed to test the 2010 spec Bridgestones today (dry tires that is), as every one of the teams participating in the 5 days test has to do.
I guess they decided it's not worth losing a day of work on the 2009 specs so they preferred not to go out today.
Also saving mileage for better days and maybe for a private test back at Mugello before the first race.

No team will reach the mileage limit 15K this year I am pretty sure.

[Tazio]

Unofficial morning times from Jerez (03/03/2009):
1. Fernando Alonso (Renault) - 1:21.151, 55 laps
2. Mark Webber (Red Bull-Renault) - 1:21.545, 45 laps
3. Timo Glock (Toyota) - 1:21.652, 82 laps
4. Nico Rosberg (Williams-Toyota) - 1:21.991, 57 laps
5. Felipe Massa (Ferrari) - 1:22.905, 45 laps
6. Robert Kubica (BMW Sauber-BMW) - 1:22.908, 28 laps
7. Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren-Mercedes) - 1:23.726, 45 laps
8. Adrian Sutil (Force India-Mercedes) - No Time, 0 laps

[Garry Walker]

Unofficial morning times from Jerez (03/03/2009):
1. Fernando Alonso (Renault) - 1:21.151, 55 laps
2. Mark Webber (Red Bull-Renault) - 1:21.545, 45 laps
3. Timo Glock (Toyota) - 1:21.652, 82 laps
4. Nico Rosberg (Williams-Toyota) - 1:21.991, 57 laps
5. Felipe Massa (Ferrari) - 1:22.905, 45 laps
6. Robert Kubica (BMW Sauber-BMW) - 1:22.908, 28 laps
7. Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren-Mercedes) - 1:23.726, 45 laps
8. Adrian Sutil (Force India-Mercedes) - No Time, 0 laps

Old times.

1. Fernando Alonso 1.20:439 115
2. Felipe Massa 1.20:674 96
3. Mark Webber 1.21:021 81
4. Timo Glock 1.21:213 109
5. Robert Kubica 1.21:463 65
6. Nico Rosberg 1.21:701 100
7. Adrian Sutil 1.21:881 40
8. Heikki Kovalainen 1.22:200 67

And here is a piece on Massa
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/mar/02/felipe-massa-formula-one-ferrari

[Tazio]

Old times.

1. Fernando Alonso 1.20:439 115
2. Felipe Massa 1.20:674 96
3. Mark Webber 1.21:021 81
4. Timo Glock 1.21:213 109
5. Robert Kubica 1.21:463 65
6. Nico Rosberg 1.21:701 100
7. Adrian Sutil 1.21:881 40
8. Heikki Kovalainen 1.22:200 67

And here is a piece on Massa
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/mar/02/felipe-massa-formula-one-ferrari
Gary, What is your resource? Not that I question it. Just curious.

[ioan]

End of the day:

1. T. Glock Toyota TF109 1:19.814 141 laps
2. F. Massa Ferrari F60 1:20.238 +0.424 134
3. F. Alonso Renault R29 1:20.296 +0.482 152
4. H. Kovalainen McLaren MP4-24 1:20.535 +0.721 85
5. A. Sutil Force India VJM-02 1:20.621 +0.807 63
6. M. Webber Red Bull Racing RB5 1:21.021 +1.207 98
7. R. Kubica BMW Sauber F1.09 1:21.069 +1.255 98
8. N. Rosberg Williams FW31 1:21.412 +1.598 125

PS: McLaren used their 2008 wing again when they set their fastest time, and they used plenty of flow vis again today
PPS: Ferrari were able to run 15 laps stints with lap time in the 1:20's and low 1:21's
Renault and Toyota achieve similar times but with stints of maximum 10 laps.

[Robinho]

Final times for the day plus laps

http://directo.thef1.es/tests/

1. Timo Glock Toyota 00:01'19''814 142
2. Felipe Massa Ferrari 00:01'20''238 135
3. Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'20''296 152
4. Heikki Kovalainen McLaren 00:01'20''535 85
5. Adrian Sutil Force India 00:01'20''621 40
6. Mark Webber Red Bull 00:01'21''021 98
7. Robert Kubica BMW-Sauber 00:01'21''069 96
8. Nico Rosberg Williams 00:01'21''412 125

[jens]

I must admit I'm really impressed with Force India's progress. Well, I can't quite believe they'll be so strongly in the midfield in the actual season as they seem to be in tests, but nonetheless their laptimes are encouraging. Even if that Sutil's 1.20,6 is a low-fuel glory lap, I think the time itself marks in any way a very good lap for a team like FI !

I suspected a bit that when Alonso takes over from Piquet, Renault may suddenly start challenging really hard close to the top. :p :

Arguably Kovalainen's last lap was set with 2008 rear wing again! Before that he really struggled to lap faster than 1:22's and 1:23's.

In the morning it was wet. In the wet and drying conditions Glock's Toyota was most impressive. In the dry Massa's Ferrari was most convincing with competitive long runs. Kubica - almost invisibile for the whole day. Sandbagging or not?

[samuratt]

End of the day:

1. T. Glock Toyota TF109 1:19.814 141 laps
2. F. Massa Ferrari F60 1:20.238 +0.424 134
3. F. Alonso Renault R29 1:20.296 +0.482 152
4. H. Kovalainen McLaren MP4-24 1:20.535 +0.721 85
5. A. Sutil Force India VJM-02 1:20.621 +0.807 63
6. M. Webber Red Bull Racing RB5 1:21.021 +1.207 98
7. R. Kubica BMW Sauber F1.09 1:21.069 +1.255 98
8. N. Rosberg Williams FW31 1:21.412 +1.598 125

PS: McLaren used their 2008 wing again when they set their fastest time, and they used plenty of flow vis again today
PPS: Ferrari were able to run 15 laps stints with lap time in the 1:20's and low 1:21's
Renault and Toyota achieve similar times but with stints of maximum 10 laps.

Where Ferrari using the 2010 tyres today??

[ioan]

Where Ferrari using the 2010 tyres today??

I read that some sources (Auto Motor und Sport) claim that they did test 2010 tires for a part of todays session.

We should wait to see what their press release says.

Anyway the Ferrari looks gorgeous:

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/tests52/diapo_170.jpg

[gloomyDAY]

McLaren botch this job? Anyway, Vettel better come out swinging in Melbourne.


And here is a piece on Massa
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/mar/02/felipe-massa-formula-one-ferrari :s mokin: Nice. Good ol' Massa!

[ShiftingGears]

Massa's face lights up with all his warmth and humanity when asked how he coped with such tumult. "I went out and got pissed"

Haha. Great article.

[DexDexter]

Massa's face lights up with all his warmth and humanity when asked how he coped with such tumult. "I went out and got pissed"

Haha. Great article.

Offtopic but Massa must be a drunk like Kimi, right? Isn't that the consensus here, one night out and you lose the championship next year cause your body won't recover :)

[ioan]

Offtopic but Massa must be a drunk like Kimi, right? Isn't that the consensus here, one night out and you lose the championship next year cause your body won't recover :)

Bugger off.

[ioan]

Offtopic but Massa must be a drunk like Kimi, right? Isn't that the consensus here, one night out and you lose the championship next year cause your body won't recover :)

Don't be childish.

[ioan]

Back to testing.
Today's time before they went for lunch:

Alonso, 1:19:945
Raikkonen, 1:20:250
Heidfled, 1:20:520
Trulli, 1:20:861
Webber, 1:20:894
Nakajima, 1:20:948
Sutil, 1:21:476
Hamilton, 1:21:753.

There is rain reported at the moment.

PS: McLaren's engine caught fire in the morning.

[Tazio]

Back to testing.
Today's time before they went for lunch:

Alonso, 1:19:945
Raikkonen, 1:20:250
Heidfled, 1:20:520
Trulli, 1:20:861
Webber, 1:20:894
Nakajima, 1:20:948
Sutil, 1:21:476
Hamilton, 1:21:753.

There is rain reported at the moment.

PS: McLaren's engine caught fire in the morning.Unofficial morning times from Jerez (04/03/2009):
1. Fernando Alonso (Renault) - 1:19.945, 48 laps
2. Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari) - 1:20.250, 65 laps
3. Nick Heidfeld (BMW Sauber-BMW) - 1:20.520, 41 laps
4. Jarno Trulli (Toyota) - 1:20.861, 51 laps
5. Mark Webber (Red Bull-Renault) - 1:20.894, 58 laps
6. Kazuki Nakajima (Williams-Toyota) - 1:20.948, 39 laps
7. Adrian Sutil (Force India-Mercedes) - 1:21.476, 55 laps
8. Lewis Hamilton (McLaren-Mercedes) - 1:21.753, 7 laps

Good to see Kimi smoking especially considering he has the most laps! Guessing he was running longer stints!

Fred has that "ugly nose" working!

[Knock-on]

Offtopic but Massa must be a drunk like Kimi, right? Isn't that the consensus here, one night out and you lose the championship next year cause your body won't recover :)

:laugh: LOL

That seems to be the way some people here think :D

[pettersolberg29]

Force India and McLaren seem to be failing miserably, albeit MvLaren's engine blew up.

[Tazio]

Final test times 4 through 7 all improved their times but it was very windy in the afternoon!


1. Fernando Alonso Renault 1min 19.945secs 130 laps

2. Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1min 20.250secs 105 laps

3. Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 1min 20.520secs 99 laps

4. Jarno Trulli Toyota 1min 20.540secs 131 laps

5. Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1min 20.894secs 107 laps

6. Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1min 20.948secs 83 laps

7. Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1min 21.302secs 70 laps

8. Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1min 21.411secs 79 laps

[pettersolberg29]

Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and Alonso look good. McLaren didn't really improve to an acceptable standard.

[ioan]

Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and Alonso look good. McLaren didn't really improve to an acceptable standard.

I don't know what exactly McLaren are doing, but again they used the 2008 wing.

[jens]

I think in February in this thread I mentioned that the Bahrain trio was looking more impressive to me than the rest and the common Jerez tests in March have so far pretty much affirmed this view with "from the rest" Alonso also seriously starting to mix with the leaders.

It's quite difficult to know for anyone (except probably themselves :p : ), what McLaren is doing. Obviously they could well be struggling at the moment, but arguably they are trying to completely redesign the diffuser and rear end. The question is whether that will be ready in time before Oz GP and whether it will offer them the kind of improvement they are looking for.

[gloomyDAY]

1. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:20.052 123
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:20.404 112
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:21.272 58
4. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:22.219 47
5. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.226 54
6. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:23.119 38

Hello, Earth to McLaren. Anyone there?

[Tazio]

1. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:20.052 123
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:20.404 112
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:21.272 58
4. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:22.219 47
5. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.226 54
6. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:23.119 38

Hello, Earth to McLaren. Anyone there?Apparently Spain’s wind is also racist :eek:
Of all the cars on track that nasty wind picked Lewis to throw off the track and rubbish his ride! ;)
http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=3&year=2009&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=35053

[gloomyDAY]

Apparently Spain’s wind is also racist :eek:
Of all the cars on track that nasty wind picked Lewis to throw off the track and rubbish his ride! ;)
http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=3&year=2009&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=35053Gust of wind? More like a collective fart from these guys...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01108/racism_1108233c.jpg

For some reason the reaction from the guy on the bottom-right corner makes me laugh.

[Tazio]

Gust of wind? More like a collective fart from these guys...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01108/racism_1108233c.jpg

For some reason the reaction from the guy on the bottom-right corner makes me laugh.The test is in Jerez
You would have to fart really hard to knock a car off the track all the way from Barcelona :confused:

[leopard]

Let go the old pain off..

[leopard]

Let the old pain go off, mods will not be happy knowing this..

[ioan]

Hello, Earth to McLaren. Anyone there?

RD here!
I hear you, strong and clear!

Don't worry for that 2008 specification RDPD (note: RDPD means rear downforce producing device) disafected yesterday when a sudden increase in the the speed of a transverse air flow, also called wind by mere mortals, disrupted the longitudinal affected the mid-speed cornering ability of our HPSSV (high performance single seater vehicle), which under external forces that built up to a higher value than the adhesion forces produce on the contact patch between the rear tires and the carriageway. As an imediate direct result the HPSSV performed a controlled 180 degree change of direction and rolled over the slowing surfaces until it made contact with the track limiting protection systems.
Our highly qualified engineers took advantage of the situation to perform an impact strength test of the new super-duper 2009 version rear wing by the intermediate use of the 2008 RDPD version.

Our avid supporters should in no way lose their calm and high expectations we have enough 2008 RDPD's in stock and our exceptional CF production center at the highly technically sophisticated Paragon excellence center can produce any needed quantity of these devices

What? Why are we impact testing the strength of our 2009 version RDPD on a 2008 version RDPD? What kind of question is that?!

[Knock-on]

:laugh:

Where did you get that from. Very good for you Mr ioan :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Red Bull seem to be taking the airbox fin a bit far :eek:

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2009martest1/image/XPB_289363_HiRes.jpg-2

[Knock-on]

Red Bull seem to be taking the airbox fin a bit far :eek:

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2009martest1/image/XPB_289363_HiRes.jpg-2

Wonder what they're hiding ;)

[ioan]

:laugh:

Where did you get that from. Very good for you Mr ioan :)

Well, I just felt in the right mood to post something a bit funnier as my usual! ;)

[ioan]

Wonder what they're hiding ;)

Maybe their innovative KERS (a hamster wheel powered all green one) is installed on the other side of the fin.

[ioan]

RD here!
I hear you, strong and clear!

Don't worry for that 2008 specification RDPD (note: RDPD means rear downforce producing device) disafected yesterday when a sudden increase in the the speed of a transverse air flow, also called wind by mere mortals, disrupted the longitudinal laminar flow and affected the mid-speed cornering ability of our HPSSV (high performance single seater vehicle), which under external forces that built up to a higher value than the adhesion forces produce on the contact patch between the rear tires and the carriageway. As an imediate direct result the HPSSV performed a controlled 180 degree change of direction and rolled over the slowing surfaces until it made contact with the track limiting protection systems.
Our highly qualified engineers took advantage of the situation to perform an impact strength test of the new super-duper 2009 version rear wing by the intermediate use of the 2008 RDPD version.

Our avid supporters should in no way lose their calm and high expectations we have enough 2008 RDPD's in stock and our exceptional CF production center at the highly technically sophisticated Paragon excellence center can produce any needed quantity of these devices

What? Why are we impact testing the strength of our 2009 version RDPD on a 2008 version RDPD? What kind of question is that?!

BTW, I made a small correction (added a missing part, the underlined section).

[jens]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/tests58/diapo_121.jpg

Trulli losing his front wing just by running over a curb is the first thing that starts worrying me a bit. If the wing can be lost so easily, then is the construction of Toyota's nosecone too 'soft'?

[ioan]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/tests58/diapo_121.jpg

Trulli losing his front wing just by running over a curb is the first thing that starts worrying me a bit. If the wing can be lost so easily, then is the construction of Toyota's nosecone too 'soft'?

If it would have been stronger than it's very likely that it would have broken.
Trulli better start driving properly around the corners! ;)

[Tazio]

.1º 16 Jenson Button Brawn GP 00:01'21''140 30
.2º 11 Jarno Trulli Toyota 00:01'21''852 00:00'00''712 50
.3º 8 Nelson Piquet Jr Renault 00:01'22''008 00:00'00''868 35
.4º 20 Adrian Sutil Force India 00:01'22''452 00:00'01''312 47
.5º 14 Sebastien Bourdais Toro Rosso 00:01'22''660 00:00'01''520 50
.6º 10 Mark Webber Red Bull 00:01'22''679 00:00'01''539 49
.7º 9 Kazuki Nakajima Williams 00:01'22''813 00:00'01''673 28
.8º 4 Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 00:01'22''869 00:00'01''729 25
.9º 6 Nick Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 00:01'23''605 00:00'02''465 21
.10º 2 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren 00:01'24''289 00:00'03''149 5

[jens]

Final times:
1. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:20.339 92
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:20.908 80
3. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:20.937 118
4. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:21.140 82
5. Piquet Renault (B) 1:21.662 124
6. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:22.158 96
7. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:22.246 115
8. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:22.452 127
9. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.813 111
10. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:22.948 87

Heidfeld probably tried a quali sim in the end, maybe it's the case with Button too...

Anyway, it looks like the alleged Top3 teams (Ferrari, BMW, Toyota) are continually in front and continue confirming my suspicion that they may be the teams fighting at the front at Melbourne. Probably Alonso is capable of mixing as well, Piquet improved today from his previous last positions. Good showing from BrawnGP today, but would like to get more confirmation of their pace in the next days before judging though. But what can't be forgotten is that BGP needs sponsors for surviving...

[pettersolberg29]

Even if Heidfeld did try a quali lap, that's still very quick for a poor qualifier! Like you say, BMW, Ferrari and Toyota seem the best, but despite their claims I think McLaren are in trouble.

[DexDexter]

Final times:
1. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber (B) 1:20.339 92
2. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:20.908 80
3. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:20.937 118
4. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:21.140 82
5. Piquet Renault (B) 1:21.662 124
6. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:22.158 96
7. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:22.246 115
8. Sutil Force India-Mercedes (B) 1:22.452 127
9. Nakajima Williams-Toyota (B) 1:22.813 111
10. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:22.948 87

Heidfeld probably tried a quali sim in the end, maybe it's the case with Button too...

Anyway, it looks like the alleged Top3 teams (Ferrari, BMW, Toyota) are continually in front and continue confirming my suspicion that they may be the teams fighting at the front at Melbourne. Probably Alonso is capable of mixing as well, Piquet improved today from his previous last positions. Good showing from BrawnGP today, but would like to get more confirmation of their pace in the next days before judging though. But what can't be forgotten is that BGP needs sponsors for surviving...

I think that you possibly overestimate Toyota. I seem to recall them being fast every winter at some point, but I think they will be like in previous years, fast in qualifying, but inconsistent. My opinion is based on them having the same people designing the cars as before and the same drivers as well.

[jens]

I think that you possibly overestimate Toyota. I seem to recall them being fast every winter at some point, but I think they will be like in previous years, fast in qualifying, but inconsistent. My opinion is based on them having the same people designing the cars as before and the same drivers as well.

In contrast I'd say you underestimate them. ;) I think you are messing up their "fastness in winter" with some impressive low-fuel qualifying runs several years ago.
They haven't been quick in previous winter tests at all. In 2008 they were invisible on most test days (and in Bahrain lost to Ferrari by 1 sec consistently). Pre-2007 they were genuine backmarkers and I may tell you that most people were surprised to see Toyota getting into Q3 in qualifying for the Australian Grand Prix. Before 2006 they didn't show anything either (signs of a downfall were clearly visible) as well as before 2005, when even Toyota itself was surprised to have enough pace for podium finishes in the beginning of the season as their expectations before the season were "hopefully to improve into good form by the second half of the year".

As for the "same people" argument I have to say that for me - who may be following TF1 closer than anyone else (?) on these forums - there have been notable positive vibes in Toyota in recent years. Usually only big changes are noticed by F1 fans - if a Newey or a Brawn signs for a new team, then often F1 fans want to take it for granted that now they will become serious contenders. But the transformation of the whole team is alas often not taken into account. 2005 marked a great year and improvement for Toyota, but with a few poor decisions and unease they threw the potential away and had to start rebuilding the team. With Vasselon becoming chief designer in 2006, 2007 saw further establishments - cooperation with Williams, new team principal in Yamashina (replacing Tomita) and the hirings of Dieter Gass and Frank Dernie. The signing of Timo Glock marked the final piece of the puzzle in creation of The Team, for me the new and improved one, and first significant improvements were visible already in 2008. Every change needs time in F1 to start creating a difference. They was good in 2005, but in my view Toyota is now a more complete and mature team, who is slowly, but gradually developing into a serious F1 contender, having gained all kinds of experience from previous seasons in F1. Even their design approach and philosophy has started to differ from the past. In the beginning they had mostly cars, which had a tendency to be more competitive over one lap rather than on longer stints plus the cars were often unreliable. By now this trend has changed.

All in all, the only reason, why people write Toyota off, is their past. But it would be good to have a more open-minded approach and to try to look into the future. ;) Just because someone has been making mistakes doesn't mean they have to be dismissed forever for those. I'm quite confident Toyota is going to be quick in 2009.

[DexDexter]

In contrast I'd say you underestimate them. ;) I think you are messing up their "fastness in winter" with some impressive low-fuel qualifying runs several years ago.
They haven't been quick in previous winter tests at all. In 2008 they were invisible on most test days (and in Bahrain lost to Ferrari by 1 sec consistently). Pre-2007 they were genuine backmarkers and I may tell you that most people were surprised to see Toyota getting into Q3 in qualifying for the Australian Grand Prix. Before 2006 they didn't show anything either (signs of a downfall were clearly visible) as well as before 2005, when even Toyota itself was surprised to have enough pace for podium finishes in the beginning of the season as their expectations before the season were "hopefully to improve into good form by the second half of the year".

As for the "same people" argument I have to say that for me - who may be following TF1 closer than anyone else (?) on these forums - there have been notable positive vibes in Toyota in recent years. Usually only big changes are noticed by F1 fans - if a Newey or a Brawn signs for a new team, then often F1 fans want to take it for granted that now they will become serious contenders. But the transformation of the whole team is alas often not taken into account. 2005 marked a great year and improvement for Toyota, but with a few poor decisions and unease they threw the potential away and had to start rebuilding the team. With Vasselon becoming chief designer in 2006, 2007 saw further establishments - cooperation with Williams, new team principal in Yamashina (replacing Tomita) and the hirings of Dieter Gass and Frank Dernie. The signing of Timo Glock marked the final piece of the puzzle in creation of The Team, for me the new and improved one, and first significant improvements were visible already in 2008. Every change needs time in F1 to start creating a difference. They was good in 2005, but in my view Toyota is now a more complete and mature team, who is slowly, but gradually developing into a serious F1 contender, having gained all kinds of experience from previous seasons in F1. Even their design approach and philosophy has started to differ from the past. In the beginning they had mostly cars, which had a tendency to be more competitive over one lap rather than on longer stints plus the cars were often unreliable. By now this trend has changed.

All in all, the only reason, why people write Toyota off, is their past. But it would be good to have a more open-minded approach and to try to look into the future. ;) Just because someone has been making mistakes doesn't mean they have to be dismissed forever for those. I'm quite confident Toyota is going to be quick in 2009.

We shall see :) . I'm of the boring type who thinks that this year (despite of testing results) will be fought between, surprise, surprise, Mclaren and Ferrari with BMW being quite close to them.

[SGWilko]

I think McLaren are in trouble.

Hmmmm, I think all this messing about with the 2008 rear wing, and the appearance of their 'trick' new floor is that they have found something quite significant, and quite possibly stolen a march on the opposition.

Could all be - to paraphrase ioan - 'bollocks' of course.... ;)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73642

[CaptainRaiden]

If I remember correctly, (and I am too lazy to check the actual facts on some website), but the Mclaren MP4-19 broke some lap records at Jerez during the testing prior to the 2004 season, and was a complete dud when it came to Australia. In fact it was a blunder, and it was so bad that Mclaren had to redesign the whole aero package.

Point being, testing times can be misleading. Still, my two cents would be that Vettel is gonna win a race with Red Bull this season. At this point, I can't say which teams look the strongest. Like Webber said, Australia is gonna be a lottery. Let's see.

[Robinho]

i'd suggest McLaren are either in serious trouble, or super confident of the package. if they drop an amazing time on the last day or 2 of testing at Jerez i expect the latter, otherwise i think they might be turning up in Melbourne i a spot of bother.

having read the Autosport report i'm hoping they've got something up their sleeve and they are not fussed about setting fast times...yet

[Tazio]

I think three teams are sandbagging to some degree:

BMW) quite substancially
McLaren) to a slightly less degree
Ferrari) Just a wee bit

[Knock-on]

I had a chat with a mate at McL and he said "what problem".

Normally I get a bit of inside gen but he wasn't forthcoming at all. Make of that what you will but it doesn't inspire me with confidence.

However, they can't be THAT bad. To go from the 2nd best car on the grid to the 2nd worse is silly so I think there is a bit of kiddery going on..... I hope!!

[Garry Walker]

If I remember correctly, (and I am too lazy to check the actual facts on some website), but the Mclaren MP4-19 broke some lap records at Jerez during the testing prior to the 2004 season, and was a complete dud when it came to Australia. In fact it was a blunder, and it was so bad that Mclaren had to redesign the whole aero package.


MP4-19 broke the lap record at Valencia and some were screaming that they will be very strong, but I was sure they will be nowhere at exactly that point. That is because webber equalled that time and McLaren ran out of fuel after doing it. So it suggested they were really suffering compared to teams like Ferrari when they were barley equal to Jaguar.

[DexDexter]

i'd suggest McLaren are either in serious trouble, or super confident of the package. if they drop an amazing time on the last day or 2 of testing at Jerez i expect the latter, otherwise i think they might be turning up in Melbourne i a spot of bother.

having read the Autosport report i'm hoping they've got something up their sleeve and they are not fussed about setting fast times...yet

Kovalainen admitted in an interview on Finnish TV channel MTV3 that they are not were they want to be right now, but he feels the car is improving all the time. He also said that it was difficult to judge which teams are the strongest right now.

[ioan]

He also said that it was difficult to judge which teams are the strongest right now.

That a typical McLaren problem, they just can not bring themselves to say that someone is better than them, so they say they can't judge it! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

That a typical McLaren problem...
Of course it is. No other team are ever guarded about how competitive they might be in comparison with the rest of the grid :p :

[Tazio]

Kovalainen admitted in an interview on Finnish TV channel MTV3 that they are not were they want to be right now, but he feels the car is improving all the time. He also said that it was difficult to judge which teams are the strongest right now.I aint buying it. Kovy is not lying, because where they want to be is miles ahead of everyone else.
He's just not tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! :p :

[Knock-on]

I aint buying it. Kovy is not lying, because where they want to be is miles ahead of everyone else.
He's just not tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth! :p :

The truth can be a very fluid thing.

For example, 9 out of 10 participants enjoy gang rape may be true.....

:D

[Tazio]

I know it's only practice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :p ::p ::p ::p :
Plus he didn't run many laps. Problems with KERS cooling!
What's up with STR

F1 testing: Barcelona, Spain, Day 2:
Pos. Driver, Team, Time, Laps
1. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 1:20.314, 55
2. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 1:20.907, 66
3. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 1:20.966, 111
4. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 1:21.182, 121
5. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 1:21.347, 66
6. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 1:21.615, 127
7. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 1:21.834, 82
8. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 1:21.937, 111
9. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 1:21.991, 88
10. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 1:23.039, 14
11. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, -, 6
http://www.setanta.com//uk/Articles/other-sports/2009/03/10/F1-Testing-at-Barcelona-Day-2/gnid-43813/

[Garry Walker]

Again, just like in the past few years, reliability of the Ferrari is a big concern.

[jens]

http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/ja-at-barcelona-test-day-2/

James Allen seems to agree with me about the Top3 teams. :p :

[I am evil Homer]

Anyone got some stats on the miles put in by each team? Seems for a cursory glance that BMW and Toyota are putting in a lot of laps at every test.

[Tazio]

Once again Ferrari had a technical problem.
They need to get that sorted out!

Unofficial morning times from Barcelona (11/03/2009):
1. Felipe Massa (Ferrari) - 1:20.168, 19 laps
2. Jenson Button (Brawn-Mercedes) - 1:20.313, 86 laps
3. Fernando Alonso (Renault) - 1:20.863, 61 laps
4. Timo Glock (Toyota) - 1:21.046, 61 laps
5. Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull-Renault) - 1:21.165, 49 laps
6. Robert Kubica (BMW Sauber-BMW) - 1:21.201, 63 laps
7. Nico Rosberg (Williams-Toyota) - 1:21.482, 30 laps
8. Giancarlo Fisichella (Force India-Mercedes) - 1:21.545, 47 laps
9. Sébastien Buemi (Toro Rosso-Ferrari) - 1:21.569, 54 laps
10. Lewis Hamilton (McLaren-Mercedes) - 1:21.657, 46 laps

[Robinho]

.1º 16 Jenson Button Brawn GP 00:01'19''127 107
.2º 2 Felipe Massa Ferrari 00:01'20''168 00:00'01''041 68
.3º 4 Robert Kubica BMW-Sauber 00:01'20''217 00:00'01''090 88
.4º 12 Timo Glock Toyota 00:01'20''410 00:00'01''283 105
.5º 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01'20''863 00:00'01''736 87
.6º 15 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 00:01'21''165 00:00'02''038 79
.7º 7 Nico Rosberg Williams 00:01'21''407 00:00'02''280 68
.8º 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India 00:01'21''545 00:00'02''418 79
.9º 15 Sebastien Buemi Toro Rosso 00:01'21''569 00:00'02''442 73
.10º 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'21''657 00:00'02''530 76

times for the day (not sure if they've quite finished yet) but Brawn again putting in a lot of laps and a quick time.

might just be headline grabbing, but what if....

[pettersolberg29]

Again McLaren last - not just bad luck surely...

[nigelred5]

I suspect Mclaren's package is aimed at optimization of the package with the KERS and they are simply not using it to keep their cards close to the chest. I haven't read about it anywhere, however I wouldn't be suprised to find button WAS using the Mercedes KERS. Honda was well on with a good package and had good areo until their fuel transfer system was declared illegal a couple years back. IIRC they ended up having a lot of balance issues and the design never recovered. I wonder how much this package has in common to that car as it's certainly more simple aerodynamically.

[Knock-on]

That's an amazing time.

Also, the McLaren time is getting steadily better. Still 1.5 sec off Ferrari but at this rate, will be close soon.

[Psycho!]

So,Hamilton had again a small off track excursion which destroyed the front of his car I thing.....This shows that he pushes it and not sandbagging.......It's a a little bit strange to drive off in less pace!!!

[Tazio]

So,Hamilton had again a small off track excursion which destroyed the front of his car I thing.....This shows that he pushes it and not sandbagging.......It's a a little bit strange to drive off in less pace!!!
Normally I would agree with you (and I'm not saying you’re wrong)!
But Hamilton seems to be much more focused and less prone to errors
when he's attacking, than when he's "conserving"
It doesn't matter because it's all Fred’s fault anyway! :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Clearly all the data McLaren spied from Ferrari a few years back has been rendered useless since they changed the regulations.

[F1boat]

Clearly all the data McLaren spied from Ferrari a few years back has been rendered useless since they changed the regulations.

Huh, maybe that's the thing, but I'll never wrote these guys off until I see something like the 2004 performance in Melbourne. Obviously the engine is very good, though.

[ArrowsFA1]

.1º 16 Jenson Button Brawn GP 00:01'19''127 107

might just be headline grabbing, but what if....

Given the level of superiority, Button's lap was likely to have been set in low-fuel qualifying trim, but data from the rest of the test suggests that the Brawn-Mercedes has also been competitive on long runs and with heavy fuel.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73674

Looks like Melbourne might be very interesting :cool:

[ioan]

I suspect Mclaren's package is aimed at optimization of the package with the KERS and they are simply not using it to keep their cards close to the chest. I haven't read about it anywhere, however I wouldn't be suprised to find button WAS using the Mercedes KERS. Honda was well on with a good package and had good areo until their fuel transfer system was declared illegal a couple years back. IIRC they ended up having a lot of balance issues and the design never recovered. I wonder how much this package has in common to that car as it's certainly more simple aerodynamically.

KERS is worth a few tenths of a second per lap, not a few seconds.
AFAIK BrawnGP cars are not equipped with KERS yet.

[leopard]

We just don't hope that amazing result Button and Brawn team scored in tests recently are only camouflage, to daunt the enemy, or allow easier identification before the real race commenced...

Button is good driver, at least he wasn't worse than his former teammate Villeneuve nor Trulli ;)

[jens]

The main disadvantage for the trio of Fer, BMW and Toy is that today is their last track testing day of 2009 and although they seem to have some kind of an advantage over others at the moment, the rivals have got some opportunities to catch them as the chasers have got some test days left next week.

[Tazio]

Unofficial Thursday times from Barcelona:
1. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn BGP 001, 1:18.926
2. Nico Rosberg, Williams FW31, 1:19.774
3. Timo Glock, Toyota TF109, 1:20.091
4. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull RB5, 1:20.576
5. Fernando Alonso, Renault R29, 1:20.664
6. Felipe Massa, Ferrari F60, 1:20.677
7. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber F1.09, 1:20.740
8. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren MP4-24, 1:20.869
9. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso STR4, 1:21.013
10. Giancarlo Fisichella, Force India VJM02, 1:21.045
11. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso STR4, 1:21.629

A quick perusal of these times begs some interesting questions!
Will RB continue to be faster than Button?
Knockie and I commented on how JB could really leave some people with egg on their faces, having discounted his ability.
What about Rubins? How many people on this forum were asking for his head?
It will be interesting to see which of the two are fastest in race trim
What an incredible story it would make If Rubins is in the fight to the end.
Hold on to your seats fellers. We could very easily have a season for the ages this year!
If you’ve been watching F1 for the last 17 years there has been one constant in a sport that changes dramatically almost every other season;
Rubens with an F1 seat!
I hope Brawn Racing continue their form.
I’m also interested in the treatment Rubins gets from the British press if he and JB have a close fight for team supremacy.
Although I’m thrilled for JB, my money is on RB.
So is my sig.
Any takers?

[Ranger]

If that BrawnGP pace is not a bluff, we could be looking at another 2004. Unbelievable.

[Tazio]

It's shortly befor 10pm thurs march 12th.in San Diego Ca.
It is officially less than a bleeding fortnight untill Fri practice at Race 1 in Australia.
Were short-timers boys :)
13Days 20Hours 28Minutes 15seconds apoximately :s mokin: ;)

[F1boat]

If that BrawnGP pace is not a bluff, we could be looking at another 2004. Unbelievable.

It will be bizarre if Mercedes-Benz dominates with Brawn GP and not with McLaren.

[jens]

As Tazio was writing an post about Barrichello, then I think it's possible to expand this case to more drivers.

It seems 2009 could generally be a great chance for those so-called experienced drivers. Just how many times it's been possible to read that the "underperforming oldies" are past their prime and should make room for youngsters. But looking at how winter testing has gone, drivers like Barrichello, Trulli, Webber, Heidfeld or Button may finally get into the limelight they have been waiting for so long. The latter four has never got a chance in a car with championship-winning potential. Maybe Red Bull hasn't seemed so 'electric' recently, which may reduce Webber's chances for an outstanding breakthrough season, but the hopes of others are still very much existent... with two weeks to go.

[Tazio]

Jens if Toyota win some kind of championship this season you are going to be insufferable.
And I state that in the most affectionate way :p : ;)

[Dzeidzei]

Knockie and I commented on how JB could really leave some people with egg on their faces, having discounted his ability.

Although I’m thrilled for JB, my money is on RB.


I´d have to agree. To me JB still has to proove he´s a real racer. Sorry to all his fans, but his record shows that he´s a softie when it comes to hard wheel-to-wheel racing.

And being soft is never good :)

[F1boat]

I´d have to agree. To me JB still has to proove he´s a real racer. Sorry to all his fans, but his record shows that he´s a softie when it comes to hard wheel-to-wheel racing.

And being soft is never good :)

Still I think that he can beat Barrichello. However, even if Brawn GP starts the season as the fastest car, which to me is definetly in question, I think that Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes will catch them quickly.

[jens]

Jens if Toyota win some kind of championship this season you are going to be insufferable.
And I state that in the most affectionate way :p : ;)

:laugh:

Long waiting-time is the factor that causes so much emotion. ;) To see a light at the end of a tunnel after many years is really quite incredible!

[Tazio]

My new (for the time being :p :) main man on the top of the list in morning times :)
Fred wastes R29. Suspected suspension failure

Unofficial morning times from Jerez (15/03/2009):
1. Rubens Barrichello (Brawn-Mercedes) - 1:19.808, 69 laps
2. Nico Hülkenberg (Williams-Toyota) - 1:21.414, 42 laps
3. Fernando Alonso (Renault) - No Time, 4 laps
4. Lewis Hamilton (McLaren-Mercedes) - No Time, 0 laps

[jens]

It's easy to shine for BrawnGP, when the other top teams are missing the tests. :p :

[Tazio]

It's easy to shine for BrawnGP, when the other top teams are missing the tests. :p :
He still had your boy over by .8 But it's only testing. :p

[Psycho!]

Any news from Jerez??

[SGWilko]

Any news from Jerez??

Yes, apparently it's gonna be a great year for fortified wine....... :D

[ioan]

Any news from Jerez??

Yeah, Finally Brawn GP car broke down in Jensons hand in the afternoon, however in the morning Rubens posted a time just under 1:19.

[Tazio]

Results
Pos. Driver Team Time Gap Laps
1. F. Alonso Renault F1 1:18.343 - 99
2. R. Barrichello Brawn GP 1:18.398 +0.055 62
3. J. Button Brawn GP 1:18.892 +0.549 12
4. L. Hamilton McLaren 1:19.513 +1.170 83
5. N. Rosberg Williams 1:19.783 +1.440 123

[ioan]

2 laps stint for Alonso.

[Sleeper]

I've just read Mark Hughes recent article on the possible cause of McLarens problems and why they've been running the 08 rear wing. It maybe that something around the sidepods is causing some serious flow seperation leaving the rear of the car having to work a smaller volume of air than it should, meaning much less downforce. The reason for running the 08 rear wing is because they know exactly how well it works on track and how much downforce it produces, but were finding the car was still slow with it on, meaning the problem isnt at the rear of the car. Once they find the problem area it should be a quik fix but they've got to find it first.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=45271

[F1boat]

2 laps stint for Alonso.

Still a good lap and before it he was third, ahead of Lewis Hamilton.

[Knock-on]

I've just read Mark Hughes recent article on the possible cause of McLarens problems and why they've been running the 08 rear wing. It maybe that something around the sidepods is causing some serious flow seperation leaving the rear of the car having to work a smaller volume of air than it should, meaning much less downforce. The reason for running the 08 rear wing is because they know exactly how well it works on track and how much downforce it produces, but were finding the car was still slow with it on, meaning the problem isnt at the rear of the car. Once they find the problem area it should be a quik fix but they've got to find it first.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=45271

I hadn't seen this article but I heard something pretty similar yesterday.

I don't know the specifics but the Pod theory makes sense. Apparently they were stumped as to where they were losing downforce as they thought they would be quick. There was also concern about running the 08 wing and qualifying the data from it because of the radically different position between the two and the design forward of the wing having changed. Very difficult to baseline with certainty.

Again, I don't know the specifics but I got the impression that they have a handle on it now and are trying to have a first release change in place this week and hopefully a solution in Aus.

However, if this stop gap doesn't close the gap, they are going to struggle big time to score points in Aus!!

[F1boat]

In my opinion it is unlikely that McLaren will be out of points, but equally unlikely to be at front row.
BTW, today Button scored a time below 1.18 at jerez.

[Knock-on]

In my opinion it is unlikely that McLaren will be out of points, but equally unlikely to be at front row.
BTW, today Button scored a time below 1.18 at jerez.

WTF is going on there :s hock:

Has there ever been a Team that has won on their debut or even a race in their first year in Modern F1?

[BDunnell]

WTF is going on there :s hock:

Has there ever been a Team that has won on their debut or even a race in their first year in Modern F1?

Wolf in 1977. Though I don't know if that constitutes the 'modern' era. Probably not.

[F1boat]

Half-time:
1. J. Button Brawn GP BGP 001 1:17.844
2. N. Rosberg Williams FW31 1:18.071 +0.227
3. N. Piquet Jr. Renault R29 1:18.382 +0.538
4. L. Hamilton McLaren MP4-24 1:19.121 +1.277

Stunning pace for JB, but he is not that much ahead of Nico and Nelson and I think that till the end of the day Lewis will do a qualifying simulation.

[Tazio]

It's stll 2+ seconds slower than the track record. 115.650 :p

[wedge]

I've just read Mark Hughes recent article on the possible cause of McLarens problems and why they've been running the 08 rear wing. It maybe that something around the sidepods is causing some serious flow seperation leaving the rear of the car having to work a smaller volume of air than it should, meaning much less downforce. The reason for running the 08 rear wing is because they know exactly how well it works on track and how much downforce it produces, but were finding the car was still slow with it on, meaning the problem isnt at the rear of the car. Once they find the problem area it should be a quik fix but they've got to find it first.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Mark_Hughes&id=45271

McLaren using fluorescent dye just shows they're looking at all the angles though not necessarily the sidepods - which is what Hughes is alluding to.

Frankly it could be anywhere. It could be the whole floorplan - the splitter all the way to the rear diffuser. The diffuser seems the obvious suspect so far for some sort of short term quick fix. Note the bottom corner of the endplate - pikeys working at McLaren ;)

http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos-hires/2009/tests80/diapo_135.jpg

[ioan]

Wolf in 1977. Though I don't know if that constitutes the 'modern' era. Probably not.

But at least Wolf was a new team while Brawn GP only has a new name.

[jens]

I think while it's acknowledged that Rosberg's time was achieved during a quali simulation, was it the same case with Button's time? If yes, BGP may not have that advantage over everyone else as some have expected (as Williams isn't obviously a top drawer either).

[Garry Walker]

I think while it's acknowledged that Rosberg's time was achieved during a quali simulation, was it the same case with Button's time? If yes, BGP may not have that advantage over everyone else as some have expected (as Williams isn't obviously a top drawer either).

Williams is apparently actually quite quick and should not be counted out.

[jens]

Williams is apparently actually quite quick and should not be counted out.

Could be the case and some analysis from German magazines (Motorsport Aktuell, Auto-motor-und-sport) seem to hint that Williams could be underrated. But still I doubt BrawnGP is head and shoulders above the rest.

[F1boat]

Kovalainen 1.18.2. McLaren are back.

[ioan]

I think while it's acknowledged that Rosberg's time was achieved during a quali simulation, was it the same case with Button's time? If yes, BGP may not have that advantage over everyone else as some have expected (as Williams isn't obviously a top drawer either).

Yes it was the same, JB got his best time during a qualifying simulation.

[jens]

Kovalainen 1.18.2. McLaren are back.

Back? :) Still slower than underdog teams like BrawnGP and Williams. McLaren may have closed the gap though, but "closing" isn't enough - they need to start matching the top teams.

[F1boat]

I hope that you are right, buddy, I don't like'em ;)

[F1boat]

Kazuki demolishes records with 1.17.4
This season will REALLY be interesting.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73781

Autosport.com has done some kind of analysis about long-runs. The most interesting conclusion to me is that they expect Toyota and BMW to be faster than Ferrari!

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73781

Autosport.com has done some kind of analysis about long-runs. The most interesting conclusion to me is that they expect Toyota and BMW to be faster than Ferrari!

Their analysis isn't worth the paper it's written on.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Their analysis isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Because it says Ferrari is slow? :p

Interesting that it puts Brawn so far ahead. I fully expect a Ferrari driver to win the first race.

[Tazio]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73781

Autosport.com has done some kind of analysis about long-runs. The most interesting conclusion to me is that they expect Toyota and BMW to be faster than Ferrari! That piece of @$$ wipe has sig bet written all over it!


they expect Toyota and BMW to be faster than Ferrari!
I too believe those three are going to be relatively close!
Now what will the order be 4th through 10th?

[ArrowsFA1]

Given that McLaren won the 2008 WDC with Lewis, and the Honda team appeared to be down and out over Christmas, it was amazing to read this:

In terms of demonstrated pace, the field is separated by around 1.8 seconds - with Brawn GP leading the way and McLaren bringing up the rear.
Amazing :eek: :eek: :s mokin:

[F1boat]

I think that after Jerez McLaren has eclipsed at least three teams - Red Bull, STR and Force India.

[ioan]

Because it says Ferrari is slow? :p

No, because they put teams up and down on their TWO classifications (which already means they don't really know what the situation is) based on single fastest laps (read that media laps), while teams like Toyota, BMW and Ferrari mainly worked on improving their race pace and drove long runs (20 and 20+ laps) and many race simulations.

Also the data is outdated compared to the latest tests when McLaren came close to the Brawn GP pace and Williams blew the time sheets.

[ioan]

Given that McLaren won the 2008 WDC with Lewis, and the Honda team appeared to be down and out over Christmas, it was amazing to read this:

Amazing :eek: :eek: :s mokin:

I would have rather called it "amazingly stupid".