F1 drop three-race engine rule

[Tazio]

"Formula One has quietly dropped a requirement for engines to last three successive races this season.

Article 28.4 of the 2009 sporting regulations, posted on the governing International Automobile Federation (FIA)'s website (http://www.fia.com) this week, makes no mention of having to use engines in sequence.

"Each driver may use no more than eight engines during a championship season," the article declares.

"Should a driver use more than eight engines, he will drop 10 places on the starting grid at any event during which an additional engine is used."

There are 17 races this season, starting in Australia on March 29.

An FIA spokesman confirmed the new rule would allow drivers to use their eight engines in whatever sequence they wished."
http://tvnz.co.nz/motorsport-news/f1-drop-three-race-engine-rule-2445660


This could make for some interesting strategy! The penalty situation is not altogether clear to me. In fact the rule is stated rather ambiguously. Is it ok to use an engine for one, or two races, use a new one, and then the previous one later :confused:

"The FIA's world motor sport council said in a statement last month that there would be an eight engine quota per driver but added that the three-race rule previously agreed in November would remain in force" :confused: :confused: :confused:

If they use more than eight engines is it an additional penalty :confused:

[Mark]

This is a far more sensible way of doing things. Unless of course we get the smaller teams using one engine per race at the start of the year then taking a penalty every race after that!

[gloomyDAY]

McLaren's newly appointed team principal Martin Whitmarsh:


There is still some (confusion), because the regulations were accelerated out, I think some points have to be clarified. One of the points that isn't 100 per cent clear in the regulations is if you use your ninth engine do you get a penalty once, or every time you use the ninth engine? Logically, and it's everyone's belief that you get the penalty once, but it isn't explicitly clear in the regulations at the moment. There are a number of things that need to be clarified.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72845

Mom, the FIA is doing it again!

http://i.eprci.net/picard-facepalm

[wmcot]

This is a bit foggy - suppose (in the worst case) a driver used 8 engines in the first eight races and then finished the season using only one additional engine (his ninth.) Does this mean that he will be dropped 10 places in every race that he uses his ninth engine in (i.e. the rest of the season) or just in the ninth race? The way I read the (vague) rule is that he would be dropped 10 places in all races after the eighth.

[inimitablestoo]

I presume there's some method by which "Engine A" is identifiable as "Engine A" to prevent, say, "Engine A" being used in the first race, being rebuilt using almost completely different parts, and being reused a few races later, still as "Engine A". Or something like that. Essentially the old routine about having the same brush for years, only changing the handle four times and the brush six...

I wonder also if this rule change has anything to do with a likely increase in unreliability with all the new KERS stuff on the cars (some would say there's already too many 'kers in F1 already... ;) )

[Sleeper]

I presume there's some method by which "Engine A" is identifiable as "Engine A" to prevent, say, "Engine A" being used in the first race, being rebuilt using almost completely different parts, and being reused a few races later, still as "Engine A". Or something like that. Essentially the old routine about having the same brush for years, only changing the handle four times and the brush six...

I wonder also if this rule change has anything to do with a likely increase in unreliability with all the new KERS stuff on the cars (some would say there's already too many 'kers in F1 already... ;) )
The engines would be sealed by the FIA, the same way they were last year for the two race engine rule.

The KERS itself might be unreliable but its unlikely to cause engine failures (though not impossible).

[Garry Walker]

Great job again by FIA.

[ioan]

Reasonable decision IMO.
It allows for greater flexibility in planing the strategy for the various tracks.

[Knock-on]

Reasonable decision IMO.
It allows for greater flexibility in planing the strategy for the various tracks.

I agree that on the face of it, there is benefit in this idea.

However........

As per usual, the rules are a bloody mess and have changed from what was agreed.

Why?

[ioan]

I agree that on the face of it, there is benefit in this idea.

However........

As per usual, the rules are a bloody mess and have changed from what was agreed.

Why?

Cost reduction.
Initially there was the 3 races/engine rule which meant 6 + 1 joker engine per driver per season + free engines for practice sessions (anybodies guess how many, but I would say 1/race or /2 races) = a total of 16 - 24 engines.

The new rule specifies the total number of engines per season per driver (races + free practice) being 8! Looks to me like a serious cut of costs for the poorer teams.

[K-Pu]

When I look at the rule I see it quite clear that this rule will be changed again before 2009 season ends...

Seems quite obscure, and when rules are not absolutely clear there tend to be, let´s say, "loopholes". Or endless pits... It´s also a bit confusing that they haven´t changed the rule with a great display of fireworks, because engine rule changes are usually quite well made public and covered by the media. Why is this? Does the FIA think people won´t like it? Am I trying to see ghosts where they aren´t?

Anyway, a limit of 8 engines seems OK to me, supposing there´s not a widespread abuse of the bottomless holes that could be found in the rule.

[Knock-on]

Cost reduction.
Initially there was the 3 races/engine rule which meant 6 + 1 joker engine per driver per season + free engines for practice sessions (anybodies guess how many, but I would say 1/race or /2 races) = a total of 16 - 24 engines.

The new rule specifies the total number of engines per season per driver (races + free practice) being 8! Looks to me like a serious cut of costs for the poorer teams.

:confused:

The previously agreed number was 1 engine would last 3 races so they would need 6 engines for a season.

This has been increased to 8 as a way of cost cutting??? You've lost me again!!

Neither regulation affected testing while practice and Qualifying mileage was included in the engine figures.

[ioan]

:confused:

The previously agreed number was 1 engine would last 3 races so they would need 6 engines for a season.

This has been increased to 8 as a way of cost cutting??? You've lost me again!!

Neither regulation affected testing while practice and Qualifying mileage was included in the engine figures.

Friday practice wasn't, I think that now it is with this 8 engines rule.

[Knock-on]

Friday practice wasn't, I think that now it is with this 8 engines rule.

So, they turn up with the engine from the last race, chuck in a practice one, run it around for a few laps, change it back and then Qualify?

I'm not saying you're wrong but have you got a link because it seems quite unlikely?

[jens]

The 8-engine rule for a season per driver seems like a good solution to me, definetely an improvement over what we have had so far. The penalty system needs to be clarified though.

[CNR]

would they be allowed to rebuild an engine from parts from the 8 engines

[SteveA]

This is a bit foggy - suppose (in the worst case) a driver used 8 engines in the first eight races and then finished the season using only one additional engine (his ninth.) Does this mean that he will be dropped 10 places in every race that he uses his ninth engine in (i.e. the rest of the season) or just in the ninth race?

If its done like that, what happens if he blows up the 9th engine and starts running with the 10th? 20 place penalty for the rest of the season? They'll run out of places!

Maybe they'll add whole lap penalties for every additional engine after 9!

[Knock-on]

As far as I understand it, you get a 10 place penalty if you use an additional engine. It does not say it's a one off but a 10 place penalty if your using the engine so I assume it applies to each subsequant race.

I don't think it's a bad rule but badly defined and again a change from what was previously agreed with the teams. That's what I was questioning.

[ioan]

As far as I understand it, you get a 10 place penalty if you use an additional engine. It does not say it's a one off but a 10 place penalty if your using the engine so I assume it applies to each subsequant race.

I don't think it's a bad rule but badly defined and again a change from what was previously agreed with the teams. That's what I was questioning.

It's not badly defined, it is defined like that because Max likes to have the freedom to change it when he thinks so.

[CNR]

F1 drop three-race engine rule
1 engine will need to do 3 races

[Mark]

In that case you could presumably use one engine in a particularly engine friendly race, take it out and then leave it to use in a different race and use another engine in the meantime?!

[Knock-on]

Each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use
more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at any Event during which an
additional engine is used.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has
left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to
be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.
c) After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine in order to
ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced.
Within two hours of the end of the post race parc fermé, and if the Competitor intends to use the
engine at the next Event, exhaust blanking plates (with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per
cylinder) and further seals will be applied in order to ensure that the engine cannot be run until the
next Event. These seals will be removed at the start of initial scrutineering at the next Event.
d) If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from an engine after it has been used for the first
time that engine may not be used again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.

They cannot mix and match the engines as they see fit. As soon as it heads down the pit lane, it's deemed to be used for that meeting. If they intent to use it at the next meeting, the FIA will seal the exhausts to prevent it being run and remove them at the next meeting.

HOWEVER, it doesn't say that the engine HAS to be used but only if the team "intend" to use it so there is a bit of ambiguity there for a start.

[Mark]

They cannot mix and match the engines as they see fit. As soon as it heads down the pit lane, it's deemed to be used for that meeting. If they intent to use it at the next meeting, the FIA will seal the exhausts to prevent it being run and remove them at the next meeting.

HOWEVER, it doesn't say that the engine HAS to be used but only if the team "intend" to use it so there is a bit of ambiguity there for a start.

So you can't mix and match. But.. you probably could, say, run one engine for two races, then run the next engine for four races. Or indeed, run an engine for one race only.

The BTCC had a similar rule some years ago which involved drivers being docked points if they used too many engines, but I believe they scrapped that as they didn't want championships being decided on penalties.

[Knock-on]

So you can't mix and match. But.. you probably could, say, run one engine for two races, then run the next engine for four races. Or indeed, run an engine for one race only.

The BTCC had a similar rule some years ago which involved drivers being docked points if they used too many engines, but I believe they scrapped that as they didn't want championships being decided on penalties.

Ahhhh, but the BTCC is all about the action and Gow's aim is to get as many fans excited by it as possible.

Max just wants to maintain power and control the sport. Having the power to decide a championship would give him a bigger hard on than a room full of Leather and whip clad ladies :D

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73049

lolz wut?

[Tazio]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73049

lolz wut?"One of the points that isn't 100 per cent clear in the regulations is if you use your ninth engine do you get a penalty once, or every time you use the ninth engine? Logically, and it's everyone's belief that you get the penalty once, but it isn't explicitly clear in the regulations at the moment. There are a number of things that need to be clarified."

Not that the FIA are prone too use logic, but the ninth engine should be penalized for it's first race 10 grid spots. 4 to 7 grid spots it's second, and not have a penalty for a third race if required. The second race penalty will deter a points leader/team from protecting a lead that only a DNF in the last 2 races would likely affect at the end of the season If such a senario should arise IMHO
Or they could do something like they did last year and not allow a "Joker" engine in the last 2 races! :confused:

[Knock-on]

What a mess. Yet again.

I thought everyone had agreed to 1 engine for 3 races. Simple.

Now we have F1 engine juggleing :(

[nigelred5]

As Mark said, It would seem that the current reg would allow the engines to be mixed/ shuffled so that the team would always have a fresh engine a track particularly hard on engines, or a team could hold back a fresh engine if the season was particularly tight. They have to declare that they intend to use the engine for the NEXT race, and only then will it be sealed? What if they don't intend to race that engine in the next race?? Does it NOT get sealed? If you never declare you will run the engine in back to back races, then it doesn't get the block off plates and it can be run and tested?

I haven't had the time to read through the regs. How does the 8 engine rule address the failure of an engine? If a team looses an engin in race 1, are they down to 7 engines for the remainder of the season, would they be required to run engines for more than 3 races or will they automatically incur a penalty?

Are the 8 engines required to be absolutely identical to one another? There were obviously changes made last season in the name of reliability. are changes allowed or are these 8 engines presented, scrutineered and sealed for the season? It would seem this would also potentially allow multiple engine specifications for different type tracks. Street course motor, high speed/duration motor, mid-speed motor.

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73396

Well, at least they have clarified a poorly thought out, shoddily implemented, unnessary revision to the originally agreed rule. :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73396

Well, at least they have clarified a poorly thought out, shoddily implemented, unnessary revision to the originally agreed rule. :rolleyes: It still sounds screwed up to me! :)

[Knock-on]

It still sounds screwed up to me! :)

I just said clarified. Not resolved!! :laugh:

[PolePosition_1]

Further update to this: http://www.manipef1.com/news/articles/8766/

The 2009 engine rules will be tweaked so that teams cannot use different powerplants in qualifying and the race, it has emerged. The current wording of the new regulations allows teams to utilise its eight engines for the entire season in any configuration or order.

But the website of the British magazine Autosport said the rules will be adapted so that engine changes after the start of Saturday morning practice can only be made if the existing 2.4 litre V8 unit is damaged or develops a problem. It is said that some teams, including Renault, requested the change because it might have become commonplace for engines to be changed prior to qualifying, requiring more staff at grands prix.

The clarification will be ratified during this week's meeting of the Sporting Working Group in Nice.