Ron's gone babe, Rons gone

[TMorel]

So with Ron moving on to pastures new, who's in the firing line to get the top job at McLaren?

EDIT
Don't worry, it did go straight to Whitmarsh so the gossip I'd heard that it might not turned out to be rubbish

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7833402.stm

[Robinho]

Martin Whitmarsh - seems kinda obvious?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7833402.stm

[Knock-on]

Obviously it wont be long before the inevitable vitreol but Ron has been a great Statesman for the sport.

Taking Bruces dream, he has forged McLaren into one, if not the best centre for Motorsport excellence in the World.

His contribution will be sorely missed.

[Mauri A]

Obviously it wont be long before the inevitable vitreol but Ron has been a great Statesman for the sport.

Taking Bruces dream, he has forged McLaren into one, if not the best centre for Motorsport excellence in the World.

His contribution will be sorely missed.
Agreed!

Some questions sure will arouse. Can Whitmarsh fill Ron´s Wellingtons, is Hamilton still "The Golden Boy" for Whitmarsh?

Obviously it wont be long before the inevitable vitreol but Ron has been a great Statesman for the sport.


Certainly his track record is superb, his win ratio excellent, but the idea that the man whose team was handed the heaviest fine in F1 history is a 'statesman' is somewhat over the top.

A superb team principal? Yes. A great statesman? No.

Then again, Bismarck was a great statesman, and look where that led! So maybe you have a point.

[Daniel]

Certainly his track record is superb, his win ratio excellent, but the idea that the man whose team was handed the heaviest fine in F1 history is a 'statesman' is somewhat over the top.

A superb team principal? Yes. A great statesman? No.

Then again, Bismarck was a great statesman, and look where that led! So maybe you have a point.

Agreed. It seems rather predictable that someone is looking at it through Ron coloured glasses :laugh:

I certainly won't miss Ron :)

[Mauri A]

Agreed. It seems rather predictable that someone is looking at it through Ron coloured glasses :laugh:

I certainly won't miss Ron :)
That´s your problem.

[Daniel]

That´s your problem.

Problem? What problem?

[PolePosition_1]

Certainly his track record is superb, his win ratio excellent, but the idea that the man whose team was handed the heaviest fine in F1 history is a 'statesman' is somewhat over the top.

A superb team principal? Yes. A great statesman? No.

Then again, Bismarck was a great statesman, and look where that led! So maybe you have a point.


Superb principal for someone who failed to see what was going on his team in 2007. Questionable I must say.

But I agree :) . Excellent career, huge success, and a huge figure within F1. I've always liked Ron, whilst a businessman, you can tell he is passionate about McLaren, whilst many will slate him for 2007 etc, those press gatherings he held in Belgium, you could see the emotion this man holds to his reputation, and the reputation of the company he works for. And I'll always admire that.

I'm going to miss the guy. And very much look forward to how the McLaren Group progress.

[Daniel]

I'm going to miss the guy

That's your problem :p

[Mauri A]

Problem? What problem?
Personal dislike.

[Knock-on]

It certainly won't be the same in the pitlane without him, but Whitmarsh is more than capable to do the job as he has been making more and more crucial decisions over the past two years....

Agreed. MW does have some rather hefty Wellies to fill (more like Waders) but he has demonstrated his competence over the last few years.

Good luck to him

Superb principal for someone who failed to see what was going on his team in 2007. Questionable I must say.

Fair point.

It's a real shame that Ron blotted his copybook with 'Spygate'.

Had he just done the right thing from Day One, he could really have been considered as a true 'Statesman'.

[Ranger]

2007 was a sad and sorry episode in a brilliant career.

I was never a major fan but you have to acknowledge his contribution to F1 over nearly 30 years. It'll be a bit wierd to not see him on the pitwall this year.

[BDunnell]

Certainly his track record is superb, his win ratio excellent, but the idea that the man whose team was handed the heaviest fine in F1 history is a 'statesman' is somewhat over the top.

A superb team principal? Yes. A great statesman? No.

Then again, Bismarck was a great statesman, and look where that led! So maybe you have a point.

I think this is all fair and well-put, though I personally have a more favourable view of Ron than I know you do. And you must surely win some sort of award for mentioning Bismarck in different posts on different topics in two consecutive days!

[Knock-on]

Superb principal for someone who failed to see what was going on his team in 2007. Questionable I must say.

But I agree :) . Excellent career, huge success, and a huge figure within F1. I've always liked Ron, whilst a businessman, you can tell he is passionate about McLaren, whilst many will slate him for 2007 etc, those press gatherings he held in Belgium, you could see the emotion this man holds to his reputation, and the reputation of the company he works for. And I'll always admire that.

I'm going to miss the guy. And very much look forward to how the McLaren Group progress.

For a man that has always had huge pride in McLaren and a desire to be fair, Spygate really hit him hard and I don't think he got over having his honour assaulted.

Love or hate Max, I do respect him for publicly stating he believed Ron at the back end of Spygate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Dennis

[Daniel]

Personal dislike.

And? :confused:

I don't like thin crust pizza but sure as hell isn't a problem for me :)

[PolePosition_1]

Fair point.

It's a real shame that Ron blotted his copybook with 'Spygate'.

Had he just done the right thing from Day One, he could really have been considered as a true 'Statesman'.

Don't really want to go into it that much.

If your accusing him of not doing the right thing in terms of lying. I personally don't believe he ever lied. He always told what he thought to be the truth.

He is however guilty of poor management, in terms of not knowing what was happening within his own team. But then this should stem to the rogue employee who first let this infiltrate the company. I don't think even the best CEO of a company that side would have been able to stop this.

You also have to question the frequencies of such incidents. I believe its a pretty frequent occurance, and that this case is highlighted due to fact it involved the two teams, and that it was caught.

[ioan]

That´s your problem.

It's rather yours! :p :

[Dave B]

Ron has done a huge amount for the sport and for McLaren, it's a shame that he'll probably be best remembered as the man whose team got caught doing what pretty much every team has always done.

He instilled a sense of excellence in the whole McLaren group, and while they may have come over as cold and sterile at times, this approach has made them one of the most successful teams of the modern era.

[TMorel]

I've never been a big fan of his but I was glad he got the chance to put things right in 2008.
Despite my dislike of him, I'll remember him for the glory days of the team rather than 2007s darkest days.

If your accusing him of not doing the right thing in terms of lying. I personally don't believe he ever lied. He always told what he thought to be the truth.

That may be the case. Maybe.

"If he would have admitted at the first World Council hearing that his team made mistakes, everything would have been much easier for him. But we had to press the facts out of his drivers, find evidence in the police files and invest immense time to bring the truth forward.

At the first hearing he reassured us that he had investigated everything and everybody in his team and that only one person had knowledge of the Ferrari papers. But then it became evident that a prominent member of his team - one of his drivers - was in on this. This did not build faith in Ron Dennis"

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2007/10/7014.html

That was what I was alluding to. Ron had ample opportunity to behave like a "statesman" in 2007.

He didn't take the first and most important of those opportunities.

Which is a tragedy, because up until then, although I found his personality odious (and, yes, I have met him) I would never have questioned his integrity.

His willingness to be less than perfect with regards to the initial internal investigation raises serious questions about that integrity, especially given his obsessive attention to detail in all other areas of his career.

[christophulus]

Not a great surprise, he was standing down at the end of 2007 until the whole Spygate thing came along.

He's certainly played a major part in McLaren's recent success, and can retire quite happy knowing that the gamble to stick Lewis Hamilton in a car so early on was well rewarded.

[SteveA]

So with Ron moving on to pastures new, who's in the firing line to get the top job at McLaren?


Anthony Hamilton

;)

[PolePosition_1]

That may be the case. Maybe.

"If he would have admitted at the first World Council hearing that his team made mistakes, everything would have been much easier for him. But we had to press the facts out of his drivers, find evidence in the police files and invest immense time to bring the truth forward.

At the first hearing he reassured us that he had investigated everything and everybody in his team and that only one person had knowledge of the Ferrari papers. But then it became evident that a prominent member of his team - one of his drivers - was in on this. This did not build faith in Ron Dennis"

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2007/10/7014.html

That was what I was alluding to. Ron had ample opportunity to behave like a "statesman" in 2007.

He didn't take the first and most important of those opportunities.

Which is a tragedy, because up until then, although I found his personality odious (and, yes, I have met him) I would never have questioned his integrity.

His willingness to be less than perfect with regards to the initial internal investigation raises serious questions about that integrity, especially given his obsessive attention to detail in all other areas of his career.

I must be honest, I'm suprised at the wording of Max there, 'if he had admitted' implies he lied.

That however is Max's opinion, and wouldn't take it for fact. Notice he does state in same interview that he had no idea whether or not Dennis deliberately concealled anything.

So whilst I remember we've debated this in length, and I've come to have an approach of we'll have to agree to disagree - I personally don't believed he ever lied.

With regards to the statement of he had biggest fine in history of FIA, as if to suggest its worst crime in history of any FIA regulated motorsport, it should be noted that this large fine was only dished out because of the size of McLaren. As Max says in same interview - "Had we to deal with one of the smaller teams, the fine would have been lower."

I must be honest, I'm suprised at the wording of Max there, 'if he had admitted' implies he lied.

I wasn't actually arguing the 'lie' point, just pointing out that if Ron had taken the matter seriously when he first had the opportunity, as a man with his control-freak obssession should have done, then Spygate would not have been such a big deal.

Why such a legendary control-freak didn't get to the bottom of the issue as soon as the story broke has never been fully answered. Come to think of it, nobody has ever answered it. Not knowing what was going on, being lied to by his employees (which evidently must have happened) just does not add up.

That is why there will always be serious doubts about his actions, his depth of knowledge and his integrity.



With regards to the statement of he had biggest fine in history of FIA, as if to suggest its worst crime in history of any FIA regulated motorsport, it should be noted that this large fine was only dished out because of the size of McLaren. As Max says in same interview - "Had we to deal with one of the smaller teams, the fine would have been lower."

But it was Mclaren, so it was the biggest fine in motorsport history.

And, as I've said before, that is the real tragedy of it, and it's a tragedy that Ron could so easily have avoided. That's his fault, and his fault alone.

What his motives were, we will never know.

[Knock-on]

I must be honest, I'm suprised at the wording of Max there, 'if he had admitted' implies he lied.

That however is Max's opinion, and wouldn't take it for fact. Notice he does state in same interview that he had no idea whether or not Dennis deliberately concealled anything.

So whilst I remember we've debated this in length, and I've come to have an approach of we'll have to agree to disagree - I personally don't believed he ever lied.

With regards to the statement of he had biggest fine in history of FIA, as if to suggest its worst crime in history of any FIA regulated motorsport, it should be noted that this large fine was only dished out because of the size of McLaren. As Max says in same interview - "Had we to deal with one of the smaller teams, the fine would have been lower."




15 September 2007


Max Mosley explained: "In the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation'. So I said, 'What did you say Ron?'. He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over'.

"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing'. And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information'. So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'. And he replied, 'Yes, a completely empty threat. There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you'.

"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him. I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.

"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police (showing) 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, (that I concluded) there had to be more to this. You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers (asking for their evidence), and the rest is history.''

Ron Dennis though insisted that he acted with total integrity throughout the whole affair. "I don't want to get into the detail, but I do want to address one thing, and that is that when someone asks me a question - and I've answered some difficult questions - at the time I made those answers I told the complete truth,'' Dennis said. "At the point of the first hearing, when I was asked the question did I know anything more, the truth was, I didn't.

"The emails that passed between our drivers were as big a surprise to me when I heard, as anyone else - and as I said, if they existed, what I said to Fernando was that he must give them to the FIA. I just want to be very clear that at no stage did I ever say any lie to anybody. I put my integrity above everything. I just want to be very clear about that particular point.''

Of all the rubbish going around, I think Ron told the truth and was unaware that this had gone beyond Stepney / Couglan as Max later admitted.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/09/15/mosley-dennis-lied-to-the-wmsc/

[Tazio]

For christ's sake turn the page!

[christophulus]

Makes you wonder what happened to Stepney/Coughlan really.

Oh yeah, I remember. Nothing.

[ioan]

About time he goes.
I'm not surprised anymore that he didn't see that his team were cheating in 2007, now he can't even see that there is an "E" missing in the McLaren name on the window behind him! :p :

http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/team-mclaren/diapo_187.jpg

[ArrowsFA1]

Not a great surprise, he was standing down at the end of 2007 until the whole Spygate thing came along.

He's certainly played a major part in McLaren's recent success, and can retire quite happy knowing that the gamble to stick Lewis Hamilton in a car so early on was well rewarded.
:up:

[Daniel]

About time he goes.
I'm not surprised anymore that he didn't see that his team were cheating in 2007, now he can't even see that there is an "E" missing in the McLaren name on the window behind him! :p :

http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos/2009/team-mclaren/diapo_187.jpg
Right on! :p

[F1boat]

Ron Dennis is a great team principle. I have spit venom him many times, but now, after the announcement, I think that I will miss him. I, for once, will not remember him as a cheater, but as a man, who was dedicated a 100% to his team and sometimes made questionable decisions, but above all as a GREAT team principle and a legend of the sport.
Hats down, Ron.

[driveace]

I totally agree with F1 boat,Ron has done a brilliant job at Mclaren,he was pationate and lived and breathed for the team,and will take some replacing.
I dont think he lied,as all the teams cheat,and probably the red car from Italy the most,but they hold the prime card,and Ron at times must have felt as if he was in a losing battle with all the stupid decisions made against them

[jens]

Ron Dennis is a true legend in F1, like also for example Frank Williams. Sure, he has had some moments of embarrassment (like 2007), but being at the top and in constant spotlight for several decades, situations of failure are inevitable. My first memories are mainly related to Ron's great success. He took the team over in 1981, when the team was struggling greatly (just a handful of points achieved during the previous couple of years). But they managed to come back and with TAG-Porsche engines McLaren finally reached the very desired No.1 spot after almost a decade. Having worked together with both Senna and Prost at the same time must be quite an invaluable experience. McLaren lived through some difficult periods in mid-90's (at worst case scenario they might have ended as Williams - endless midfield privateer), but with Mercedes stability was refound and patience brought top success again.

[truefan72]

Ron Dennis is a great team principle. I have spit venom him many times, but now, after the announcement, I think that I will miss him. I, for once, will not remember him as a cheater, but as a man, who was dedicated a 100% to his team and sometimes made questionable decisions, but above all as a GREAT team principle and a legend of the sport.
Hats down, Ron.


precisely and well said.

not his biggest fan per say, but huge respect for his accomplishments and contribution to Mclaren and the sport. I'll toast to his career. :up:

[truefan72]

and at the other end of the spectrum we have this clown

Nick Fry
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/16012009/58/honda-chief-denies-conflict-interest.html

[ShiftingGears]

Ron Dennis is a true legend in F1, like also for example Frank Williams. Sure, he has had some moments of embarrassment (like 2007), but being at the top and in constant spotlight for several decades, situations of failure are inevitable. My first memories are mainly related to Ron's great success. He took the team over in 1981, when the team was struggling greatly (just a handful of points achieved during the previous couple of years). But they managed to come back and with TAG-Porsche engines McLaren finally reached the very desired No.1 spot after almost a decade. Having worked together with both Senna and Prost at the same time must be quite an invaluable experience. McLaren lived through some difficult periods in mid-90's (at worst case scenario they might have ended as Williams - endless midfield privateer), but with Mercedes stability was refound and patience brought top success again.

Great post. It'll be strange not seeing him on the pitwall for many grands prix this year.

[harsha]

Great post. It'll be strange not seeing him on the pitwall for many grands prix this year.

:up:

[Azumanga Davo]

and at the other end of the spectrum we have this clown

Nick Fry
http://eurosport.yahoo.com/16012009/58/honda-chief-denies-conflict-interest.html

Why have I got a horrible feeling this one will have a long and fruitless career in F1?

[Garry Walker]

Ron Dennis is a true legend in F1, like also for example Frank Williams. Sure, he has had some moments of embarrassment (like 2007), but being at the top and in constant spotlight for several decades, situations of failure are inevitable. My first memories are mainly related to Ron's great success. He took the team over in 1981, when the team was struggling greatly (just a handful of points achieved during the previous couple of years). But they managed to come back and with TAG-Porsche engines McLaren finally reached the very desired No.1 spot after almost a decade. Having worked together with both Senna and Prost at the same time must be quite an invaluable experience. McLaren lived through some difficult periods in mid-90's (at worst case scenario they might have ended as Williams - endless midfield privateer), but with Mercedes stability was refound and patience brought top success again.

I agree.
Ron has been a good "enemy" to have. It won`t be the same with that whitmarsh running things at McLaren.

[raikk]

he was a great team principle .. I know I will miss him on the pitwall.

[PolePosition_1]

I wasn't actually arguing the 'lie' point, just pointing out that if Ron had taken the matter seriously when he first had the opportunity, as a man with his control-freak obssession should have done, then Spygate would not have been such a big deal.

Why such a legendary control-freak didn't get to the bottom of the issue as soon as the story broke has never been fully answered. Come to think of it, nobody has ever answered it. Not knowing what was going on, being lied to by his employees (which evidently must have happened) just does not add up.

That is why there will always be serious doubts about his actions, his depth of knowledge and his integrity.



But it was Mclaren, so it was the biggest fine in motorsport history.

And, as I've said before, that is the real tragedy of it, and it's a tragedy that Ron could so easily have avoided. That's his fault, and his fault alone.

What his motives were, we will never know.


I pretty much agree with most of what you said.

I think Ron's biggest failure in 2007 was believing too much in the company, he's set a standard throughout the team, so when the allegations were made, he simply didn't believe if it was true, presumably he enquired about it, the truth failed to come out, and he took their word.

So when he launched an investigation, the investigation was quite simply.....pointless - it wasn't designed to uncover lies, hence it failed.

And in this respect, Ron Dennis failed miserable.

But I feel compassion for the man, he was betrayed himself. He blatantly loves the company. And you have to wonder how hard it would have been to get all the information out.

Majority of evidence only came out by legal enforcement - and the threat of banning drivers AND constructors and the 2008 season.

And whilst I agree with you, I do feel your taking the "avoided so easily" philosphy bit too serious. I don't think it could easily have been avoided at the time, with hindsight maybe.

But what fustrates me most is fact that there doesn't seem to be any concensus with regards to spying. There isn't a black and white line of what is too far? We've established its illegal to carry over a hard copy of information from one team to another - how about remembering information and carrying that over?

With no clear line - I suspect that this unfortunately is pretty common practice within F1. And its just fact it involved both top teams, the media pounced, and made it the issue it is.

[ArrowsFA1]

he was a great team principle .. I know I will miss him on the pitwall.
Maybe you won't :)


"I'll probably go to a number of grands prix, because I'm a diehard motorsport enthusiast and always will be..."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72863

[Dzeidzei]

Despite my dislike of him, I'll remember him for the glory days of the team rather than 2007s darkest days.

If we asked Ron about what he´d like to forget or do differently, Im sure 2007 incidents would be on the top of the list.

He should have gone to FIA the minute I knew we had Ferrari data on our disposal. (which was very early in the process!)

He should have told the thruth from the beginning. (this was the most disrespectful and discraceful thing against fellow competitors, McL fans and F1 fans in general)

etc.

But we are all humans. We all make mistakes. We all should be forgiven, too. Ron´s achievements are way bigger than the spygate. And he did exit with style with their 2008 success.

[Rusty Spanner]

Love him or hate him he worked insanely hard and was in F1 for the right reasons. Not to flog cans of drink or cars. Nor for the glamour and the money. He was in it to race, to compete and to win. There aren't many other team bosses/owners in F1 now you could say the same about.

[PolePosition_1]

If we asked Ron about what he´d like to forget or do differently, Im sure 2007 incidents would be on the top of the list.

He should have gone to FIA the minute I knew we had Ferrari data on our disposal. (which was very early in the process!)

He should have told the thruth from the beginning. (this was the most disrespectful and discraceful thing against fellow competitors, McL fans and F1 fans in general)

etc.

But we are all humans. We all make mistakes. We all should be forgiven, too. Ron´s achievements are way bigger than the spygate. And he did exit with style with their 2008 success.


There is absolutely no evidence to say that or even suggest he knew about any of this early in the process, or that he lied.

I think its unfortunate that people who don't know all the facts just assume its a given that he lied etc.

When truth of the matter is that him lying is purely what some people think happened. Which is fair enough, as we're all entitled to an opinion, but its a shame that some don't realise that him lying is just an opinion, not backed up by any facts whatsoever.

[Dzeidzei]

There is absolutely no evidence to say that or even suggest he knew about any of this early in the process, or that he lied.

I think its unfortunate that people who don't know all the facts just assume its a given that he lied etc.

When truth of the matter is that him lying is purely what some people think happened. Which is fair enough, as we're all entitled to an opinion, but its a shame that some don't realise that him lying is just an opinion, not backed up by any facts whatsoever.

Well, I think its fortunate that some people do have the actual facts. What would we do without you guys?

Also, saying that he didnt lie without any evidence whatsoever, is also just an opinion, right?

The idea that RD the control freak didnt know of something this major going on in his team is beyond me. If that was the case, he should have sacked himself for doing an outstandingly poor job as a team principal.

Will never buy it, sorry.

[Tazio]

"I think we are not best friends, but I think there is respect from each other," said Alonso at the launch of Renault's new R29.

"We didn't have a perfect end to our relationship but we know how much he has done for Formula One. When I was young I remember McLaren and I had great respect for him.

"There are not many people like Ron in Formula One anymore. Ron did it like in the old days: one guy developing and growing up with the team, making a Formula One team successful and winning championships."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72873

Fred :dozey:

[Big Ben]

Though I didn't like the way he handled the rivalry between FA and LH and I started to dislike his team a lot because of that I think that he deserves a lot of respect for everything he did and as others have said... for the fact that he's been in the sport for the right reasons. It would have been great to have more like him.

[PolePosition_1]

Also, saying that he didnt lie without any evidence whatsoever, is also just an opinion, right?



Yeah, its an opinion - but I'm more of an innocent until proven guilty kinda guy.

Presumably your a guilty until proven innocent?

Yeah, its an opinion - but I'm more of an innocent until proven guilty kinda guy.

Presumably your a guilty until proven innocent?

I think your willingness to give Ron the benefit of the doubt is to your credit, although it's hardly surprising that some of us don't trust him anymore.

[Dzeidzei]

Yeah, its an opinion - but I'm more of an innocent until proven guilty kinda guy.

Presumably your a guilty until proven innocent?

Nopes, Im more of a "if it looks like bs, sounds like bs and smells like bs, it must be bs" kind of guy.

And to think that the guy who wanted to control Fernando haircut didnt know about something this relevant happening in his team, is unthinkable.

Just dont buy it. But its not a big deal.

[PolePosition_1]

I think your willingness to give Ron the benefit of the doubt is to your credit, although it's hardly surprising that some of us don't trust him anymore.

I'm more than happy to accept some think he lied.

As its not proven he didn't lie.

I'm just against people saying he lied as if its a fact. When its not.

[PolePosition_1]

Nopes, Im more of a "if it looks like bs, sounds like bs and smells like bs, it must be bs" kind of guy.

And to think that the guy who wanted to control Fernando haircut didnt know about something this relevant happening in his team, is unthinkable.

Just dont buy it. But its not a big deal.

So you acknowledge its not a fact that he lied, and merely your opinion?

[jens]

"I think we are not best friends, but I think there is respect from each other," said Alonso at the launch of Renault's new R29.

"We didn't have a perfect end to our relationship but we know how much he has done for Formula One. When I was young I remember McLaren and I had great respect for him.

"There are not many people like Ron in Formula One anymore. Ron did it like in the old days: one guy developing and growing up with the team, making a Formula One team successful and winning championships."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72873

Fred :dozey:

Absolutely brilliant! Fred's response should be an example to fellow forum members, who most probably haven't had such negative experience with Ron as FA has had. But anyway, whatever happened back in 2007, it's quite obvious Alonso has learned something from this experience. Maybe that if he wants to remain a respected and wanted driver on the driver market he needs to cut down his demands?

Quite amazing - last year it looked like they are going to have a fight, now there exists some kind of respect. By the way, didn't Alonso hint during 2008 that it might not be impossible he returns to McLaren, but only if Dennis isn't the team principal any more. So - who knows? :p :

I'm more than happy to accept some think he lied.

As its not proven he didn't lie.

I'm just against people saying he lied as if its a fact. When its not.

Well no, but then it's not a fact that he didn't lie either. About as much circumstantial evidence says he wasn't entirely truthful as there is circumstantial evidence to say he was entirely truthful.

Some, therefore, are entitled to be against people saying he didn't lie as if its a fact when it's not.

[Dzeidzei]

So you acknowledge its not a fact that he lied, and merely your opinion?

Have you seen dumb and dumber? Jim Carrey asks the girl "Do you think there is a chance for us?" and the girl says "maybe one in a million". So Jim shouts: SO THERE IS A CHANCE!.

In that sense its possible that RD didnt lie.

By fact you seem to mean that Ron would have to agree that he knew and actually lied. He will never do that. For me its factual enough if everything points to one conclusion. And the other possibility is unthinkable. Which in this case it is.

Everything says that the sun will rise tomorrow. Whether RD admitted that or not.

But fine, if it makes you happy you can say that RD never lied, he´s a true gentleman and did nothing wrong related to the spygate affair. Youre entitled to think so.

[PolePosition_1]

Well no, but then it's not a fact that he didn't lie either. About as much circumstantial evidence says he wasn't entirely truthful as there is circumstantial evidence to say he was entirely truthful.

Some, therefore, are entitled to be against people saying he didn't lie as if its a fact when it's not.

I've NEVER stated that it was 100% proven that he never lied.

I've always stated that its what I believe, and its my opinion.

And again, I've no problem with people pointing out its not a fact he never lied.

What I'm against is people like Dzeidzei - who talk about him lying. When there is just no hardcore evidence to indicate that he did lie. Its all suggestive.

And in a court of law, there is no chance he would have been found guilty. There just isn't enough to suggest he lied beyond reasonable doubt.

So bearing that in mind, saying there is a 1 in a million chance of him not lying, is a totally inaccurate analysis of the situation.

I'll stress out my main point here again, as I seem to have to repeat myself over:

I don't believe he lied, thats my opinion. I haven't got a problem whether you think he lied, as I can see where you get your opinion, as its totally subjective. But you CAN'T say its a fact that he lied.

[ArrowsFA1]

Some are entitled to be against people saying he didn't lie as if its a fact when it's not.

Some are entitled to be against people saying he did lie as if its a fact when it's not.

[SGWilko]

Have you seen dumb and dumber? Jim Carrey asks the girl "Do you think there is a chance for us?" and the girl says "maybe one in a million". So Jim shouts: SO THERE IS A CHANCE!.



I prefer the toilet scene, much funnier, and probably just as much sh!t.

Can we all try to accept that;

We cannot prove he lied,

and

We cannot prove he didn't lie.

Stop being last word freaks and concentrate on 2009 already.

[PolePosition_1]

Stop being last word freaks and concentrate on 2009 already.

Mate, its a discussion board, we're going to discuss things.

Its what this is for ;)

[SGWilko]

Mate, its a discussion board, we're going to discuss things.

Its what this is for ;)

Indeed, but flogging a dead horse?

[Knock-on]

Indeed, but flogging a dead horse?

Shhhh, you'll give Max ideas ;)

[ioan]

Have you seen dumb and dumber? Jim Carrey asks the girl "Do you think there is a chance for us?" and the girl says "maybe one in a million". So Jim shouts: SO THERE IS A CHANCE!.

In that sense its possible that RD didnt lie.

By fact you seem to mean that Ron would have to agree that he knew and actually lied. He will never do that. For me its factual enough if everything points to one conclusion. And the other possibility is unthinkable. Which in this case it is.

Everything says that the sun will rise tomorrow. Whether RD admitted that or not.

But fine, if it makes you happy you can say that RD never lied, he´s a true gentleman and did nothing wrong related to the spygate affair. Youre entitled to think so.

Excellent post.

[PolePosition_1]

Have you seen dumb and dumber? Jim Carrey asks the girl "Do you think there is a chance for us?" and the girl says "maybe one in a million". So Jim shouts: SO THERE IS A CHANCE!.

In that sense its possible that RD didnt lie.

By fact you seem to mean that Ron would have to agree that he knew and actually lied. He will never do that. For me its factual enough if everything points to one conclusion. And the other possibility is unthinkable. Which in this case it is.

Everything says that the sun will rise tomorrow. Whether RD admitted that or not.

But fine, if it makes you happy you can say that RD never lied, he´s a true gentleman and did nothing wrong related to the spygate affair. Youre entitled to think so.


Can you pinpoint me what "points" all point to one conclusion?

I've read the whole report numerous times, I've debated this topic extensively, and I've never come to the conclusion that it all but suggests he lied.

I support Alonso and Williams. So wouldn't say I'm a blind McLaren fan or anything.

And an admission of his guilt would solve the issue. But other things as well, such as proof, in form of a text message, email, telephone recording.

Just stuff they use to find guilt in court - otherwise the guilt is beyond reasonable doubt, as I said earlier, innocent until proven guilty.

[jens]

It's easy to bash Ron, because he is under the spotlight, but I would like to ask - who wouldn't have lied in such situation? Who wouldn't lie if there is so much at stake (probably the existence of a team) and there is a chance of escape. After Ron had "lied" - as you put it - the spygate was seemingly over until the poor relationship with Alonso deepened and became costly for the team, without that maybe nothing would have happened. You think Ron would have been the only team manager on planet to act like that in such peculiar situation?

[ioan]

It's easy to bash Ron, because he is under the spotlight, but I would like to ask - who wouldn't have lied in such situation?

Who? A real gentleman, someone with a backbone, with a real sense of dignity!

[Dzeidzei]

Can you pinpoint me what "points" all point to one conclusion?

Fine, this´ll be my last post regarding Ron.

McL under Ron´s supervision has had a reputation of being extremely professional, highly organised etc. In numerous interviews Kimi basicly said that he didnt like McL because he couldnt take a piss and not let the team boss know about it (well, not in those words so no need to google it).

And now you suggest the team was trying or discussing new brake designs, trying new mixture in tyres etc AND Ron didnt know about it. Even if theres no email, no text message etc. there is no chance in hell that Ron didnt know. I think the professionalism shows itself in the fact that there is no evidence.

I cannot make my point more clearly than that. Feel free to disagree, you have every right to do so.