Obama surprise

[Hondo]

The more I see of Obama, the people he is selecting for his inner circle, and the way he's going about it, leads me to believe that the citizens of the USA and the rest of you are getting ready to experience the American version of Putin.

Obama may turn out to be the classic case of "Be careful what you wish for...you may get it."

[BDunnell]

In what way?

[Hondo]

People faulted George W. over his "you're for us or against us" attitude and I think Obama is going to have a "my way or the highway" attitude.

His tone and manner have already changed since the election. He has surrounded himself with hard line political veterans and made key cabinet selectons without even going through the motions of consulting with powerful committie chairpeople, although you can bet he was told he was stepping on toes and was going to hurt some feelings out there. I don't know what the Muslims are expecting from him, but I don't think they're going to get it.

Promising stuff while running for election is fine but once you become president-elect, you are given the same national security briefing the president gets every morning. So, for the first time, you actually become privy to whats really going on, why it's going on, and exactly how the whole mess ties together. In other words, you may have to continue certain policies for the common good and not necessarily just for the good of the USA. He is now aware of any privately brokered deals with other governments and knows what is said publicly is not their official opinion.

I also look for financial and military aid to other countries to be cut back substantially. It's hard to justify spending money overseas, on people that don't like you anyway, when you're in a financial bind at home. Sort of like running an F1 team when you're closing factories and laying off workers.

Even now, the Democrat majority congress and senate who probably thought they were going to run his inexperienced butt (Palin really did have more hands-on government experience than Obama. Obama had connections and the media on his side.) are now casting wary glances in his direction.

As far as being like Putin, I think once he is in office and decides something is going to be a certain way he's going to do it, citizens, congress, senate, and the world be damned.

He is an eloquent speaker when the teleprompter is working, he has physical presence and a certain charisma, he's a political amateur, he comes along at a time of economic uncertainty while people are crying out for change, and had no real relationship with his father.

Remind you of anybody?

[Eki]

The more I see of Obama, the people he is selecting for his inner circle, and the way he's going about it, leads me to believe that the citizens of the USA and the rest of you are getting ready to experience the American version of Putin.


You mean Americans will love him and even idolize him like Russians love and idolize Putin and Germans loved and idolized Hitler?

[Hondo]

You mean Americans will love him and even idolize him like Russians love and idolize Putin and Germans loved and idolized Hitler?

Yup. Some Americans will. For the time being, he is still the darling of the media. The unwashed masses will begin to turn on him when he can't deliver what they thought they were going to get from him, i.e., a better free ride. Another unforseen consequence is that having an African-American from a broken home elected President of the United States of America is going to kick a lot of crutches out from under (metaphorically speaking) a vast group of people that will now be expected to put up or shut up.

[Tomi]

Nothing new then, on this forum a few years back many americans did see bush as somekind of great statsman as well, personally i dont think much will change in the us politics, american attitude towards human rights issues maybe a little bit.
The blind faith americans have in their goverment sometimes amaze, they buy almost everything without critic.

[steve_spackman]

People faulted George W. over his "you're for us or against us" attitude and I think Obama is going to have a "my way or the highway" attitude.

His tone and manner have already changed since the election. He has surrounded himself with hard line political veterans and made key cabinet selectons without even going through the motions of consulting with powerful committie chairpeople, although you can bet he was told he was stepping on toes and was going to hurt some feelings out there. I don't know what the Muslims are expecting from him, but I don't think they're going to get it.

Promising stuff while running for election is fine but once you become president-elect, you are given the same national security briefing the president gets every morning. So, for the first time, you actually become privy to whats really going on, why it's going on, and exactly how the whole mess ties together. In other words, you may have to continue certain policies for the common good and not necessarily just for the good of the USA. He is now aware of any privately brokered deals with other governments and knows what is said publicly is not their official opinion.

I also look for financial and military aid to other countries to be cut back substantially. It's hard to justify spending money overseas, on people that don't like you anyway, when you're in a financial bind at home. Sort of like running an F1 team when you're closing factories and laying off workers.

Even now, the Democrat majority congress and senate who probably thought they were going to run his inexperienced butt (Palin really did have more hands-on government experience than Obama. Obama had connections and the media on his side.) are now casting wary glances in his direction.

As far as being like Putin, I think once he is in office and decides something is going to be a certain way he's going to do it, citizens, congress, senate, and the world be damned.

He is an eloquent speaker when the teleprompter is working, he has physical presence and a certain charisma, he's a political amateur, he comes along at a time of economic uncertainty while people are crying out for change, and had no real relationship with his father.

Remind you of anybody?

i would agree with you on this. I have said many a time that Obama is a great speaking and seems to have his head screwed on right, but lately with some of the decisions he has made is making me also wonder what his agenda really is. I think putting Clinton as S of State is a very bold move considering her wild views about certain countries...

Lets hope he brings forth all that was said in the election, and not step back when he opens the doors to the whitehouse.

He has a very very tough first few months ahead of him, and he has a lot that needs to be done in the US from coast to coast...

fingers crossed

[Eki]

Yup. Some Americans will. For the time being, he is still the darling of the media. The unwashed masses will begin to turn on him when he can't deliver what they thought they were going to get from him, i.e., a better free ride. Another unforseen consequence is that having an African-American from a broken home elected President of the United States of America is going to kick a lot of crutches out from under (metaphorically speaking) a vast group of people that will now be expected to put up or shut up.
Russians haven't turned against Putin and most Germans didn't turn against Hitler before the Allied forced them.

[Hondo]

Russians haven't turned against Putin and most Germans didn't turn against Hitler before the Allied forced them.

At that time, the Russians & Germans were used to working for a living and the Germans were glad to be employed again. Here, we are talking about generations that have done nothing beyond breeding children for a living.

[Hondo]

I don't know the what they'll call it, but Obama is talking about improving the infrastructure and creating 600,000 new government jobs. I see a fuzzy picture of people that use to get a check for nothing now having to lean on a shovel pretending they're building a road for that same check. Room and board paid for on site, as in labor camp. Hide and watch.

[steve_spackman]

I don't know the what they'll call it, but Obama is talking about improving the infrastructure and creating 600,000 new government jobs. I see a fuzzy picture of people that use to get a check for nothing now having to lean on a shovel pretending they're building a road for that same check. Room and board paid for on site, as in labor camp. Hide and watch.

Its been reported that Obama is more left than the governments of the UK and Europe??

[Hondo]

Its been reported that Obama is more left than the governments of the UK and Europe??

There are some that say that. We'll just have to wait and see.

[steve_spackman]

There are some that say that. We'll just have to wait and see.

does that worry you?

if so why?

[Hondo]

does that worry you?

if so why?

There are only two things in the world to worry about. Things that you can do something about, in which case get off your dead a$$ and do something about it and things that you can't do anything about in which case there's no point in worrying about it.

I didn't vote for Obama and there's not anything I can do about him so, no, I don't worry about it. I have lived the better part of my life already and have been dismayed by the constant encroachment of socialism. It would seem more and more people desire less personal responsibility and are willing to trade their liberties for a nannie state. So be it.

[steve_spackman]

There are only two things in the world to worry about. Things that you can do something about, in which case get off your dead a$$ and do something about it and things that you can't do anything about in which case there's no point in worrying about it.

I didn't vote for Obama and there's not anything I can do about him so, no, I don't worry about it. I have lived the better part of my life already and have been dismayed by the constant encroachment of socialism. It would seem more and more people desire less personal responsibility and are willing to trade their liberties for a nannie state. So be it.

so you dont like socialism then i take it?

So you are against socialised healthcare etc

[markabilly]

People faulted George W. over his "you're for us or against us" attitude and I think Obama is going to have a "my way or the highway" attitude.

His tone and manner have already changed since the election. He has surrounded himself with hard line political veterans and made key cabinet selectons without even going through the motions of consulting with powerful committie chairpeople, although you can bet he was told he was stepping on toes and was going to hurt some feelings out there. I don't know what the Muslims are expecting from him, but I don't think they're going to get it.

Promising stuff while running for election is fine but once you become president-elect, you are given the same national security briefing the president gets every morning. So, for the first time, you actually become privy to whats really going on, why it's going on, and exactly how the whole mess ties together. In other words, you may have to continue certain policies for the common good and not necessarily just for the good of the USA. He is now aware of any privately brokered deals with other governments and knows what is said publicly is not their official opinion.

I also look for financial and military aid to other countries to be cut back substantially. It's hard to justify spending money overseas, on people that don't like you anyway, when you're in a financial bind at home. Sort of like running an F1 team when you're closing factories and laying off workers.

Even now, the Democrat majority congress and senate who probably thought they were going to run his inexperienced butt (Palin really did have more hands-on government experience than Obama. Obama had connections and the media on his side.) are now casting wary glances in his direction.

As far as being like Putin, I think once he is in office and decides something is going to be a certain way he's going to do it, citizens, congress, senate, and the world be damned.

He is an eloquent speaker when the teleprompter is working, he has physical presence and a certain charisma, he's a political amateur, he comes along at a time of economic uncertainty while people are crying out for change, and had no real relationship with his father.

Remind you of anybody?



Geeazz, I was telling you people long before the elction that Obama did NOT represent any meaning ful change, indeed quoting that old Who song, about meet the new boss, same as the old boss....... :rotflmao:


Indeed, I said the same about Bama, and Palin (Palin has a great TV personna, which is why the libs and Demes hate her so very much, she has that Bill Clinton ability to say things like he was famous for and never flinch, like I smoked grass, but never inhaled, I never had sex with that girl and then later said under oath, that oral sex is not sex.....walks around getting his photo snapped and all, and no one ever thinks about how he came with one vote of being involuntarily removed from office by impeachment, was disbarred in his home state of Arkansaw for committing perjury (why do you think he left Ark and don't live there????))

While they claim their personal politics are so different, deep down inside Palin and Bama are just greating talikng heads, much like Billy was and George W Bush JR, never was

But big chasnge in tv personality though as Bama comes across on TV (so far!!anyway) as being very good and dymanic, much like Palin does (And very unlike Joe BiotoxBiden or John McCain)

As to economics, there was NO choice between the two, except that Wall Street seemed to trust McCain less than they did Obama, which only told me that they thought Obama was a more reliable "buy" with their campaign contributions.

So I thought long and hard, when it came to pull the prresidential choice lever, I pulled it for neither of them, as the first time in my life, I voted on every office, except president...NO point, as I could not see why palin should probably be Prez if McCain was elected and dies, what MC CAin offerred that was any different than that of Bama, what Bama offerred anything except the same false prosperity, and continued repetition of the same economic mistakes while going down the same road of the last forty years that lead to these problems..... :(

(but George W jr, never ever had much charisma nor speaking ability compared to Bama, Billy C or even Sara "quit picking on Me" Paylain)

[Hondo]

so you dont like socialism then i take it?

So you are against socialised healthcare etc

I don't care for it, no.

I don't believe it's government's job to provide the individual with healthcare.

The more you rely on government, the less capable you and future generations become in providing for yourself and your security. At some point, the government has you completely in their pocket because you don't know how to do anything for yourself. Government bends over backwards to convince you need them for everything. The lazier you get, the better it sounds.

In the 1970's in Houston, I met a Russian immigrant family that was preparing to throw in the towel and go home, back to Russia. Their explaination was that America was simply too much for them to deal with. They were responsible for finding and paying for their own housing, finding employment, owning and operating a car, phone bill, electric bill, water bill, and yes, paying for medical insurance. They were worn out from taking care of themselves. They loved our grocery stores and shopping malls though.

[steve_spackman]

I don't care for it, no.

I don't believe it's government's job to provide the individual with healthcare.

The more you rely on government, the less capable you and future generations become in providing for yourself and your security. At some point, the government has you completely in their pocket because you don't know how to do anything for yourself. Government bends over backwards to convince you need them for everything. The lazier you get, the better it sounds.

In the 1970's in Houston, I met a Russian immigrant family that was preparing to throw in the towel and go home, back to Russia. Their explaination was that America was simply too much for them to deal with. They were responsible for finding and paying for their own housing, finding employment, owning and operating a car, phone bill, electric bill, water bill, and yes, paying for medical insurance. They were worn out from taking care of themselves. They loved our grocery stores and shopping malls though.

So what about the people who find that they cant get medical treatment as they are unable to pay for it?

My sis in law she needs heart surgery, yet she has been told that if she cant come up with the money then they will not touch her..i think thats disgusting....

[BDunnell]

The more you rely on government, the less capable you and future generations become in providing for yourself and your security. At some point, the government has you completely in their pocket because you don't know how to do anything for yourself. Government bends over backwards to convince you need them for everything. The lazier you get, the better it sounds.

Well, much private sector involvement in the public services in the UK has been disastrous, so I would far rather see well-run state provision of essential services on those grounds alone. Trouble is that there is no a certain naivety on the part of most mainstream politicians regarding the desire of private companies to put on the best service possible — or lack of it.

[Hondo]

So what about the people who find that they cant get medical treatment as they are unable to pay for it?

My sis in law she needs heart surgery, yet she has been told that if she cant come up with the money then they will not touch her..i think thats disgusting....

Although this may sound cold-hearted to you, life is risky business with no guarantees. I'm sorry for your sister-in-law. I lost my job on Aug 31st. along with my medical insurance. Since then, I have worked a total of 4 weeks on specialized industrial outages. I have emphysema and a thyroid that quit 2 years ago that requires daily medication. I have not filed for or collected any unemployment. Thats just the way it is. When did living to a ripe old age become a right?

[Hondo]

Well, much private sector involvement in the public services in the UK has been disastrous, so I would far rather see well-run state provision of essential services on those grounds alone. Trouble is that there is no a certain naivety on the part of most mainstream politicians regarding the desire of private companies to put on the best service possible — or lack of it.

Funny you should bring that up. Around here, government, while promising the world on the next project, are dumping as many services as they can off on the private sector. They are talking about turning highways over to private companies which would then charge a toll for road use. Quite a few areas use private sector trash pickup. Some states now allow private sector prisons to alleviate overcrowding. The list goes on.

Bear in mind that our Democratic congress is largely responsible for this financial meltdown for forcing 2 government corporations along with private banks to give sub prime mortgages to people that normally wouldn't be able to afford that house under normal requirements. No down payment, no job, not a citizen, no problem...sign here and you got a house bubba! By God it's just wrong poor people don't have their own house so we're gonna ease things up for them and win their vote.

Yeah...government is the answer.

[steve_spackman]

I don't care for it, no.

I don't believe it's government's job to provide the individual with healthcare.

The more you rely on government, the less capable you and future generations become in providing for yourself and your security. At some point, the government has you completely in their pocket because you don't know how to do anything for yourself. Government bends over backwards to convince you need them for everything. The lazier you get, the better it sounds.

isnt this a scare tactic used by the government to get you off the idea of socialism as then if the government was to run the healthcare and so forth they would have to spend more of their money to provide for the people...

like ronald reagan said about socialised healthcare is bad and its not good for the american people etc...i heard that while watching SICKO.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fiero...bang on the money.

First off. Obama I think has been forced to abanadon a lot of the left wing idelogy that people heard from him when he wasn't considered a serious contender. His picks for numerous posts of mainly Clintonista hacks and Gates from the Bush administration isn't the change "you can believe in" that many people in the US thought they are getting...and thank GOD for that.

I may not like a lot of the people he picked on some levels...but at least they aren't going to do anything radically stupid either.

Obama is going to realize getting elected was the easy part. I think a lot of blacks and leftwing zealots who backed this guy are going to end up being VERY disappointed. Unlike you Fiero...I don't think this man will have much of a honeymoon period and 4 years from now there will be some disillusionment with his governence. He will gain votes however from disaffected Republicans and moderates who will like the fact he governs from the center.

This can go two ways. Obama can muddle through and not do anything radical and maybe luck out of this economic mess...or he can bring in lots of left wing ideas, let Congress do his thinking for him and bankrupt the country to a level that people start having wistful memories of Jimmy Carter. I thought the latter was going to happen...now I think the former...

Obama isn't as bad as some right wingers want to believe IMO..but he isn't a genius either. He hasn't run anything but his mouth for his whole life......now he has to learn to be in charge and not alienate a nation....

[steve_spackman]

Obama is going to realize getting elected was the easy part. I think a lot of blacks and leftwing zealots who backed this guy are going to end up being VERY disappointed[/quote]

63% of people who voted for Obama was white, 23% black and 11% mexican

[steve_spackman]

Obama is going to realize getting elected was the easy part. I think a lot of blacks and leftwing zealots who backed this guy are going to end up being VERY disappointed.

63% of people who voted for Obama was white, 23% black and 11% mexican

[Mark in Oshawa]

isnt this a scare tactic used by the government to get you off the idea of socialism as then if the government was to run the healthcare and so forth they would have to spend more of their money to provide for the people...

like ronald reagan said about socialised healthcare is bad and its not good for the american people...


Reagan believed in the individual looking after as much as he/she could. Why should the state give you everything?

One of the key differences Americans always state to me in my travels is "oh you are a Canadian...you have free health care." I then have to explain I pay a lot more in taxes for my fuel and in income tax, I often have to wait 6 monthes to a year if I had some health issue that they would be able to walk down the street tomorrow and get looked after and that as time goes on the Canadian government is delisting a lot of medical procedures that used to be covered.

There is no perfect system. What Fiero has pointed out and Reagan was stating is that at some point...you have to look after yourself.

I do know there is a medicaid/medicare safety net in most US States. It is the reason the State of NY is almost broke and most of its major cities are having economic issues because the cost of providing this "Free" healthcare to those who don't have benefits through their employers.

I am of the opinion that the problem isn't who is paying for healthcare...I am just of the opinion it costs too much no matter who is paying. It isn't that I want to see doctors make less...but there is a lot of places in the medical system where money is siphoned off to non-medical issues. It is a quandary every Western nation is facing.

If you Brit's think your system works so well...explain to me why the private clinics and doctors outside the NHS are so busy and the NHS hospitals are much like Canadian ones....not up to much of a standard? I know this from friends who have lived in the UK so I know it isn't perfect.....

[steve_spackman]

Reagan believed in the individual looking after as much as he/she could. Why should the state give you everything?

One of the key differences Americans always state to me in my travels is "oh you are a Canadian...you have free health care." I then have to explain I pay a lot more in taxes for my fuel and in income tax, I often have to wait 6 monthes to a year if I had some health issue that they would be able to walk down the street tomorrow and get looked after and that as time goes on the Canadian government is delisting a lot of medical procedures that used to be covered.

There is no perfect system. What Fiero has pointed out and Reagan was stating is that at some point...you have to look after yourself.

I do know there is a medicaid/medicare safety net in most US States. It is the reason the State of NY is almost broke and most of its major cities are having economic issues because the cost of providing this "Free" healthcare to those who don't have benefits through their employers.

I am of the opinion that the problem isn't who is paying for healthcare...I am just of the opinion it costs too much no matter who is paying. It isn't that I want to see doctors make less...but there is a lot of places in the medical system where money is siphoned off to non-medical issues. It is a quandary every Western nation is facing.

If you Brit's think your system works so well...explain to me why the private clinics and doctors outside the NHS are so busy and the NHS hospitals are much like Canadian ones....not up to much of a standard? I know this from friends who have lived in the UK so I know it isn't perfect.....

did i say its a perfect system??

One of the main reasons why its suffering at the mo is the fact that all these people from eastern europe are coming over taking our jobs and sending the money back home..not too mention all the illegals we have a problem with that are putting a huge amount of strain on the system

[Mark in Oshawa]

63% of people who voted for Obama was white, 23% black and 11% mexican

95% of the Blacks voted for Obama. If 95% of Whites ever voted that way for a White candidate the cry of racism would be everywhere but blacks vote enmass for Democrats almost every election.

This time..I think there was nothing wrong with it on a lot of levels. I think the US was long overdue for a black president.

As for your numbers...that is Hispanic. Mexican illegals don't vote...(well maybe in Illinois they get to vote for dead people!) and I would like you to get that link for that stat. I would suspect that 63% may be a tad high when you consider most whites voted for McCain....

[Mark in Oshawa]

did i say its a perfect system??

No you didn't...but if you read Dunnells post you would get the feeling that the private sector is messing things up.

I live in a country where the private sector is pretty much outlawed from doing anything beyond Dental and Chiropractry and I can tell you our medical system has slid a LONG way in the last 25 years.

[steve_spackman]

95% of the Blacks voted for Obama. If 95% of Whites ever voted that way for a White candidate the cry of racism would be everywhere but blacks vote enmass for Democrats almost every election.

This time..I think there was nothing wrong with it on a lot of levels. I think the US was long overdue for a black president.

As for your numbers...that is Hispanic. Mexican illegals don't vote...(well maybe in Illinois they get to vote for dead people!) and I would like you to get that link for that stat. I would suspect that 63% may be a tad high when you consider most whites voted for McCain....

thats what i saw on CNN on election night before i flew over to england.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7709852.stm

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was right tho. McCain won the white vote....55% of whites went to the Republicans...which is about it normally would be when they lose.

The thing is...I think America was ready for a black president YEARS ago on some levels....but White America didn't want one that was so Liberal. It is why Obama started to run his campaign from the center the second he got the nomination.....

[steve_spackman]

Reagan believed in the individual looking after as much as he/she could. Why should the state give you everything?

One of the key differences Americans always state to me in my travels is "oh you are a Canadian...you have free health care." I then have to explain I pay a lot more in taxes for my fuel and in income tax, I often have to wait 6 monthes to a year if I had some health issue that they would be able to walk down the street tomorrow and get looked after and that as time goes on the Canadian government is delisting a lot of medical procedures that used to be covered.

There is no perfect system. What Fiero has pointed out and Reagan was stating is that at some point...you have to look after yourself.

I do know there is a medicaid/medicare safety net in most US States. It is the reason the State of NY is almost broke and most of its major cities are having economic issues because the cost of providing this "Free" healthcare to those who don't have benefits through their employers.

I am of the opinion that the problem isn't who is paying for healthcare...I am just of the opinion it costs too much no matter who is paying. It isn't that I want to see doctors make less...but there is a lot of places in the medical system where money is siphoned off to non-medical issues. It is a quandary every Western nation is facing.

If you Brit's think your system works so well...explain to me why the private clinics and doctors outside the NHS are so busy and the NHS hospitals are much like Canadian ones....not up to much of a standard? I know this from friends who have lived in the UK so I know it isn't perfect.....

So how good is the private healthcare system then?..from your view

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

[steve_spackman]

No you didn't...but if you read Dunnells post you would get the feeling that the private sector is messing things up.

I live in a country where the private sector is pretty much outlawed from doing anything beyond Dental and Chiropractry and I can tell you our medical system has slid a LONG way in the last 25 years.

let's acknowledge that the U.S. medical system has serious problems. But the problems stem from departures from free-market principles. The system is riddled with tax manipulation, costly insurance mandates and bureaucratic interference and doctors on the payroll of insurance and pharmecutical companies

[Mark in Oshawa]

let's acknowledge that the U.S. medical system has serious problems. But the problems stem from departures from free-market principles. The system is riddled with tax manipulation, costly insurance mandates and bureaucratic interference and doctors on the payroll of insurance and pharmecutical companies

Hurrah...we agree on something..more or less. That said..I would never advocate a completely publically run system. It is the US pharma and medical research system that has done much of the ground work in landmark drug research and new cures in the last few years.

Look no further than the MRI and other expensive but vital equipment.

[steve_spackman]

Hurrah...we agree on something..more or less. That said..I would never advocate a completely publically run system. It is the US pharma and medical research system that has done much of the ground work in landmark drug research and new cures in the last few years.

Look no further than the MRI and other expensive but vital equipment.

then most of the drugs that are seen in the US are actaully coming from places like Australia and Europe,

[BDunnell]

If you Brit's think your system works so well...explain to me why the private clinics and doctors outside the NHS are so busy and the NHS hospitals are much like Canadian ones....not up to much of a standard? I know this from friends who have lived in the UK so I know it isn't perfect.....

Because, at least in part, of the private sector involvement that has been allowed into the NHS. Issues such as hospital cleanliness can be attributed to this.

[BDunnell]

Funny you should bring that up. Around here, government, while promising the world on the next project, are dumping as many services as they can off on the private sector. They are talking about turning highways over to private companies which would then charge a toll for road use. Quite a few areas use private sector trash pickup. Some states now allow private sector prisons to alleviate overcrowding. The list goes on.

Bear in mind that our Democratic congress is largely responsible for this financial meltdown for forcing 2 government corporations along with private banks to give sub prime mortgages to people that normally wouldn't be able to afford that house under normal requirements. No down payment, no job, not a citizen, no problem...sign here and you got a house bubba! By God it's just wrong poor people don't have their own house so we're gonna ease things up for them and win their vote.

Yeah...government is the answer.

Every mainstream political party nowadays has to be seen to be 'business-friendly'. Most mainstream politicians are genuinely of the view that the private sector is somehow superior in terms of delivering services to the public sector, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[anthonyvop]

So what about the people who find that they cant get medical treatment as they are unable to pay for it?

My sis in law she needs heart surgery, yet she has been told that if she cant come up with the money then they will not touch her..i think thats disgusting....
If she is in the U.S. then she is lying or the surgery is elective.

Nobody in the U.S. is denied basic medical care. They may not get the best but if she really need the surgery it would get done. She would probably have to pay for it the rest of her life but she would get it.

[Hondo]

isnt this a scare tactic used by the government to get you off the idea of socialism as then if the government was to run the healthcare and so forth they would have to spend more of their money to provide for the people...

like ronald reagan said about socialised healthcare is bad and its not good for the american people etc...i heard that while watching SICKO.

No, it's a truth as related to me by my parents that has come to be true. The US government used the same tactic on the American Indian. Once they were on the reservation, the government owned them within a generation by providing, as meager as it was, for their needs. It kept them alive but small in number and weak.

The voting base of the Democratic party in this country is the poor and those that have come to depend on the government for all their needs. At some point, those that reproduce what they can afford to raise and earn an income will become outnumbered by those that don't. As the number of handout voters begins to swamp the number of productive voters it becomes an easy matter for a politician to get elected by promising the handouts even more. Sooner or later, the productive can no longer support the handouts and the system begins to collapse.

[steve_spackman]

If she is in the U.S. then she is lying or the surgery is elective.

Nobody in the U.S. is denied basic medical care. They may not get the best but if she really need the surgery it would get done. She would probably have to pay for it the rest of her life but she would get it.

no she needs some kind of heart monitor, yet as she does not have the 'great thing' called insurance, they have said that she cant have it...

[markabilly]

The price of mercy is getting more expensive now, even with insurance....if you do not have insurance or enough money, than you just can not afford to live and that is nobody's fault but their own....just ask any neo-con and they will tell you......

[Jag_Warrior]

Bear in mind that our Democratic congress is largely responsible for this financial meltdown for forcing 2 government corporations along with private banks to give sub prime mortgages to people that normally wouldn't be able to afford that house under normal requirements. No down payment, no job, not a citizen, no problem...sign here and you got a house bubba! By God it's just wrong poor people don't have their own house so we're gonna ease things up for them and win their vote.

Yeah...government is the answer.

Let's get back to the facts on how the mortgage market works, and kill (finally) the urban myth that any institution was forced to give loans to anyone. FNMA and FHLMC have lending standards. The standards include guidelines for income/debt ratios, loan to value ratios, credit standards, asset mix, etc. You're exactly right that it was mostly from the Democrat side that the lending guidelines were loosened. Barney Frank and others championed this. And FNMA and FHLMC did enable this to take place by creating a market for subprime loans to be securitized.

But the notion that banks were forced by the government to make loans to people who did not have jobs, lied about their incomes, didn't have a downpayment, etc. is simply not true. It was not true when I worked in banking years ago. And it's not true now. What happened to our economy is MUCH more complex than just people with NINJA (No Income No Job Application) loans. Every loan backed by FNMA, FHLMC and FHA that exceeds 80% loan to value is insured by some form of mortgage insurance (PMI for privates and MIP for FHA). So if this was just a case of tens of thousands of 99% LTV mortgages tanking, the underlying lenders would have been covered to some percentage of the loan amounts. The PMI companies would have taken it on the chin.

What happened in our markets was not just about what the government did or didn't do. From the underlying mortgages, there was packaging or bundling of loans. This is where FNMA and FHLMC got killed: in supporting a market for MBS's. Many of these bundles were also insured to some degree. The bundles were sold to pension funds, mutual funds... and hedge funds. ;) From there, many of the bundles would be repackaged. (Here's where it gets fun) Let's say that you take a bundle which has nothing but the highest rated mortgages within (we'll say it's AAA rated) - no subprimes whatsoever. Now I add some subprimes... say, 25%. What is the (repackaged) bundle rated at now? Some were still rated AAA. :eek: Quite often, the original rating of the package would follow through to the repackage. And then you throw in Credit Default Swaps: an unregulated derivative which even many on Wall St. didn't fully understand. Because of Phil Gramm's Commodities Futures Modernization Act, CDS's remained unregulated - and still are unregulated. Some fellow named John McCain also supported this act. It passed. Other than Warren Buffett, there are scant few who truly understand CDS structure or pricing. To say that they are basically "insurance policies on investments, that are tradeable" incredibly oversimplifies them.

I apologize for making this long & windy. And even with all of this, I've left a LOT out. I'm not trying to preach. But to say that this catastrophe was caused by nothing more than the government (Dems or Repubs) oversimplifies a very complex issue, and completely ignores other important inputs. Banks were not forced to make option ARM loans, interest only balloon loans, 100%+ LTV loans, Liar Loans, NINJA loans, loans based on "future value" appraisals or anything else. They did it because there was outrageous money to be made by making subprimes and funny money mortgages. On a "normal", prime loan, a mortgage banker will make a 1% origination fee and usually 0 to 1.5% in prepaid interest (points). With a subprime, you can play with the rate (+.5% on the interest rate earns the banker roughly another 4 points), you can play with the origination and administration fees and you can play with the points above and beyond what is "reasonable" on a prime. On a prime $200K mortage, a banker might make $4K or so total. On the same loan as a subprime, he could easily make $10K and sleep at night, or $15K if he doesn't have a conscience. Not many mortgage bankers were saying, "Oh no, please Uncle Sam, don't twist my arm and force me to stick an extra 10 grand in my pocket by writing mortgages for these annoying deadbeats! I hate Bentleys. I don't want a yacht! Look at all the extra income tax I'll have to pay!!!"
There was no "force" involved in this scam of the century.

It's never as simple as it may seem.

[steve_spackman]

The price of mercy is getting more expensive now, even with insurance....if you do not have insurance or enough money, than you just can not afford to live and that is nobody's fault but their own....just ask any neo-con and they will tell you......

thats no suprise coming from neo-cons who are among the most selfish of people around.

is that your view too?

its all to do with greed from the insurance companies, through doctors and hospitals..people have the RIGHT to healthcare no matter if you are rich or poor.

[Roamy]

Nothing new then, on this forum a few years back many americans did see bush as somekind of great statsman as well, personally i dont think much will change in the us politics, american attitude towards human rights issues maybe a little bit.
The blind faith americans have in their goverment sometimes amaze, they buy almost everything without critic.

Yea that is right we buy all your sh!t when we should be buying only things manufactured in our own country. But low and behold when that movement takes a hold!!!

[steve_spackman]

Yea that is right we buy all your sh!t when we should be buying only things manufactured in our own country. But low and behold when that movement takes a hold!!!

nothing wrong with 'our e'

[markabilly]

thats no suprise coming from neo-cons who are among the most selfish of people around.

is that your view too?

its all to do with greed from the insurance companies, through doctors and hospitals..people have the RIGHT to healthcare no matter if you are rich or poor.


Nah, not my view at all...I believe that I and I alone, should have the power to decide who lives and who dies,

"People have the right to healthcare"?? Sounds too communistic to me, next thing you will be sprouting off that people have the right to live, to own property, to pursuit of happiness, be free........yayadddaayyada :s mokin:

[Roamy]

I don't know the what they'll call it, but Obama is talking about improving the infrastructure and creating 600,000 new government jobs. I see a fuzzy picture of people that use to get a check for nothing now having to lean on a shovel pretending they're building a road for that same check. Room and board paid for on site, as in labor camp. Hide and watch.

What he needs to do is inspire a manufacturing revolution in this country. Case in point - I buy a mac 17 inch laptop for 2,700. That computer should be made completely here as should the rest of the hi end macs. For the cheap windoze crap there are many options to support the world economy

[steve_spackman]

Nah, not my view at all...I believe that I and I alone, should have the power to decide who lives and who dies,

"People have the right to healthcare"?? Sounds too communistic to me, next thing you will be sprouting off that people have the right to live, to own property, to pursuit of happiness, be free........yayadddaayyada :s mokin:

:rolleyes:

[Roamy]

I don't care for it, no.

I don't believe it's government's job to provide the individual with healthcare.

The more you rely on government, the less capable you and future generations become in providing for yourself and your security. At some point, the government has you completely in their pocket because you don't know how to do anything for yourself. Government bends over backwards to convince you need them for everything. The lazier you get, the better it sounds.

In the 1970's in Houston, I met a Russian immigrant family that was preparing to throw in the towel and go home, back to Russia. Their explaination was that America was simply too much for them to deal with. They were responsible for finding and paying for their own housing, finding employment, owning and operating a car, phone bill, electric bill, water bill, and yes, paying for medical insurance. They were worn out from taking care of themselves. They loved our grocery stores and shopping malls though.

The government needs to worry about quacks like Bernie Madoff and many in congress. Eliminate the malpractice claims. Rid doctors of the insurance costs and if you want it as a patient then buy it. Doctors make enough money to treat all. If you can prove your financial responsibility is nil then you should be treated. Certainly every emergency room should get rid of the clip board and sort it out after the pain is gone. Plus you should be able to just walk in the door and get a MRI at a very reasonable cost. Everything now is way to controlled - open it up lets have some competition for that colonostemy- maybe I could have it done while I at the "Tit" bar.

[Roamy]

Although this may sound cold-hearted to you, life is risky business with no guarantees. I'm sorry for your sister-in-law. I lost my job on Aug 31st. along with my medical insurance. Since then, I have worked a total of 4 weeks on specialized industrial outages. I have emphysema and a thyroid that quit 2 years ago that requires daily medication. I have not filed for or collected any unemployment. Thats just the way it is. When did living to a ripe old age become a right?

yea a bottle of red and a cigar a day is way better than stumbling around at age 90 in the assisted living center.

[Roamy]

95% of the Blacks voted for Obama. If 95% of Whites ever voted that way for a White candidate the cry of racism would be everywhere but blacks vote enmass for Democrats almost every election.

This time..I think there was nothing wrong with it on a lot of levels. I think the US was long overdue for a black president.

As for your numbers...that is Hispanic. Mexican illegals don't vote...(well maybe in Illinois they get to vote for dead people!) and I would like you to get that link for that stat. I would suspect that 63% may be a tad high when you consider most whites voted for McCain....

Bull crap we are not long overdue for a black president.
we are long overdue for a complete sweep of congress and a viable 3rd party. Race has no place in politics unless you are islamic or of any other belief harmful to our way of life.

We are overdue to amending our constitution and take a bulldozer to all of these mosques and exporting many many people!!!

[Roamy]

no she needs some kind of heart monitor, yet as she does not have the 'great thing' called insurance, they have said that she cant have it... Get the family together and make a purchase!!!

[steve_spackman]

Bull crap we are not long overdue for a black president.
we are long overdue for a complete sweep of congress and a viable 3rd party. Race has no place in politics unless you are islamic or of any other belief harmful to our way of life.

We are overdue to amending our constitution and take a bulldozer to all of these mosques and exporting many many people!!!

im sure the american indians feel the same way too

[steve_spackman]

Get the family together and make a purchase!!!

so when do we get your donation

[Roamy]

Let's get back to the facts on how the mortgage market works, and kill (finally) the urban myth that any institution was forced to give loans to anyone. FNMA and FHLMC have lending standards. The standards include guidelines for income/debt ratios, loan to value ratios, credit standards, asset mix, etc. You're exactly right that it was mostly from the Democrat side that the lending guidelines were loosened. Barney Frank and others championed this. And FNMA and FHLMC did enable this to take place by creating a market for subprime loans to be securitized.

But the notion that banks were forced by the government to make loans to people who did not have jobs, lied about their incomes, didn't have a downpayment, etc. is simply not true. It was not true when I worked in banking years ago. And it's not true now. What happened to our economy is MUCH more complex than just people with NINJA (No Income No Job Application) loans. Every loan backed by FNMA, FHLMC and FHA that exceeds 80% loan to value is insured by some form of mortgage insurance (PMI for privates and MIP for FHA). So if this was just a case of tens of thousands of 99% LTV mortgages tanking, the underlying lenders would have been covered to some percentage of the loan amounts. The PMI companies would have taken it on the chin.

What happened in our markets was not just about what the government did or didn't do. From the underlying mortgages, there was packaging or bundling of loans. This is where FNMA and FHLMC got killed: in supporting a market for MBS's. Many of these bundles were also insured to some degree. The bundles were sold to pension funds, mutual funds... and hedge funds. ;) From there, many of the bundles would be repackaged. (Here's where it gets fun) Let's say that you take a bundle which has nothing but the highest rated mortgages within (we'll say it's AAA rated) - no subprimes whatsoever. Now I add some subprimes... say, 25%. What is the (repackaged) bundle rated at now? Some were still rated AAA. :eek: Quite often, the original rating of the package would follow through to the repackage. And then you throw in Credit Default Swaps: an unregulated derivative which even many on Wall St. didn't fully understand. Because of Phil Gramm's Commodities Futures Modernization Act, CDS's remained unregulated - and still are unregulated. Some fellow named John McCain also supported this act. It passed. Other than Warren Buffett, there are scant few who truly understand CDS structure or pricing. To say that they are basically "insurance policies on investments, that are tradeable" incredibly oversimplifies them.

I apologize for making this long & windy. And even with all of this, I've left a LOT out. I'm not trying to preach. But to say that this catastrophe was caused by nothing more than the government (Dems or Repubs) oversimplifies a very complex issue, and completely ignores other important inputs. Banks were not forced to make option ARM loans, interest only balloon loans, 100%+ LTV loans, Liar Loans, NINJA loans, loans based on "future value" appraisals or anything else. They did it because there was outrageous money to be made by making subprimes and funny money mortgages. On a "normal", prime loan, a mortgage banker will make a 1% origination fee and usually 0 to 1.5% in prepaid interest (points). With a subprime, you can play with the rate (+.5% on the interest rate earns the banker roughly another 4 points), you can play with the origination and administration fees and you can play with the points above and beyond what is "reasonable" on a prime. On a prime $200K mortage, a banker might make $4K or so total. On the same loan as a subprime, he could easily make $10K and sleep at night, or $15K if he doesn't have a conscience. Not many mortgage bankers were saying, "Oh no, please Uncle Sam, don't twist my arm and force me to stick an extra 10 grand in my pocket by writing mortgages for these annoying deadbeats! I hate Bentleys. I don't want a yacht! Look at all the extra income tax I'll have to pay!!!"
There was no "force" involved in this scam of the century.

It's never as simple as it may seem.


Well lets start here and they add your senator dodd and that bernie gaylord!


Here is a quick look into 3 former Fannie Mae executives who have brought down Wall Street.


Franklin Raines was a Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae. Raines was forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae when auditing discovered severe irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting activities. At the time of his departure The Wall Street Journal noted, ' Raines, who long defended the company's accounting despite mounting evidence that it wasn't proper, issued a statement late Tuesday conceding that 'mistakes were made' and saying he would assume responsibility as he had earlier promised. News reports indicate the company was under growing pressure from regulators to shake up its management in the wake of findings that the company's books ran afoul of generally accepted accounting principles for four years.' Fannie Mae had to reduce its surplus by $9 billion.


Raines left with a 'golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits. The Government filed suit against Raines when the depth of the accounting scandal became clear. http://housingdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/ . The Government noted, 'The 101 charges reveal how the individuals improperly manipulated earnings to maximize their bonuses, while knowingly neglecting accounting systems and internal controls, misapplying over twenty accounting principles and misleading the regulator and the public. The Notice explains how they submitted six years of misleading and inaccurate accounting statements and inaccurate capital reports that enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an unsafe and unsound manner.' These charges were made in 2006. The Court ordered Raines to return $50 Million Dollars he received in bonuses based on the miss-stated Fannie Mae profits.


Tim Howard - Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard 'was a strong internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would ensure a 'stable pattern of earnings' at Fannie.. In everyday English - he was cooking the books. The Government Investigation determined that, 'Chief Financial Officer, Tim Howard, failed to provide adequate oversight to key control and reporting functions within Fannie Mae,'


On June 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La., asked the Justice Department to investigate his allegations that two former Fannie Mae executives lied to Congress in October 2004 when they denied manipulating the mortgage-finance giant's income statement to achieve management pay bonuses. Investigations by federal regulators and the company's board of directors since concluded that management did manipulate 1998 earnings to trigger bonuses. Raines and Howard resigned under pressure in late 2004.


Howard's Golden Parachute was estimated at $20 Million!


Jim Johnson - A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO. A look at the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report on mismanagement and corruption inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some interesting things about Johnson. Investigators found that Fannie Mae had hidden a substantial amount of Johnson's 1998 compensation from the public, reporting that it was between $6 million and $7 million when it fact it was $21 million.' Johnson is currently under investigation for taking illegal loans from Countrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie Mae.


Johnson's Golden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.





WHERE ARE THEY NOW?


FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works for the Obama Campaign as Chief Economic Advisor


TIM HOWARD? Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama


JIM JOHNSON? Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee

[Eki]

Yea that is right we buy all your sh!t when we should be buying only things manufactured in our own country. But low and behold when that movement takes a hold!!!

Fall of the Soviet Union probably hit us harder than the fall of the US would. About 25% of our exports were to the Soviet Union but only about 6% is to the US:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fi.html

Exports - partners:
Germany 10.9%, Sweden 10.7%, Russia 10.3%, US 6.4%, UK 5.8%, Netherlands 5.6% (2007)
Imports:
$78.05 billion f.o.b. (2007 est.)
Imports - commodities:
foodstuffs, petroleum and petroleum products, chemicals, transport equipment, iron and steel, machinery, textile yarn and fabrics, grains
Imports - partners:
Germany 15.8%, Russia 14%, Sweden 13.7%, Netherlands 6.8%, China 5.5%, UK 4.9% (2007)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well lets start here and they add your senator dodd and that bernie gaylord!


Here is a quick look into 3 former Fannie Mae executives who have brought down Wall Street.


Franklin Raines was a Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae. Raines was forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae when auditing discovered severe irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting activities. At the time of his departure The Wall Street Journal noted, ' Raines, who long defended the company's accounting despite mounting evidence that it wasn't proper, issued a statement late Tuesday conceding that 'mistakes were made' and saying he would assume responsibility as he had earlier promised. News reports indicate the company was under growing pressure from regulators to shake up its management in the wake of findings that the company's books ran afoul of generally accepted accounting principles for four years.' Fannie Mae had to reduce its surplus by $9 billion.


Raines left with a 'golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits. The Government filed suit against Raines when the depth of the accounting scandal became clear. http://housingdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/ . The Government noted, 'The 101 charges reveal how the individuals improperly manipulated earnings to maximize their bonuses, while knowingly neglecting accounting systems and internal controls, misapplying over twenty accounting principles and misleading the regulator and the public. The Notice explains how they submitted six years of misleading and inaccurate accounting statements and inaccurate capital reports that enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an unsafe and unsound manner.' These charges were made in 2006. The Court ordered Raines to return $50 Million Dollars he received in bonuses based on the miss-stated Fannie Mae profits.


Tim Howard - Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard 'was a strong internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would ensure a 'stable pattern of earnings' at Fannie.. In everyday English - he was cooking the books. The Government Investigation determined that, 'Chief Financial Officer, Tim Howard, failed to provide adequate oversight to key control and reporting functions within Fannie Mae,'


On June 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La., asked the Justice Department to investigate his allegations that two former Fannie Mae executives lied to Congress in October 2004 when they denied manipulating the mortgage-finance giant's income statement to achieve management pay bonuses. Investigations by federal regulators and the company's board of directors since concluded that management did manipulate 1998 earnings to trigger bonuses. Raines and Howard resigned under pressure in late 2004.


Howard's Golden Parachute was estimated at $20 Million!


Jim Johnson - A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO. A look at the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report on mismanagement and corruption inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some interesting things about Johnson. Investigators found that Fannie Mae had hidden a substantial amount of Johnson's 1998 compensation from the public, reporting that it was between $6 million and $7 million when it fact it was $21 million.' Johnson is currently under investigation for taking illegal loans from Countrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie Mae.


Johnson's Golden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.





WHERE ARE THEY NOW?


FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works for the Obama Campaign as Chief Economic Advisor


TIM HOWARD? Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama


JIM JOHNSON? Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee

Ssssh!!!! The rest of the world might actually take note of this and start to wonder just how much "change" there is in "Change you can believe in".......

Yes we can be cynical...and this has been why!!!

AS for you being overdue for a black President in the US...yes it is overdue because the black community has been part of the USA for as long as there has been one...took you almost 100 years to rid your nation of slavery, another 100 almost to finally acknowledge the blacks role in society being equal to the whites and 50 years farther on they get a Black President. Colour should mean nothing in politics and my objection to Obama was based more on who he hangs around with and his connections to people like Franklin Raines and the like..but it doens't change the fact I am proud America didn't see colour in this race really.....

[Eki]

but it doens't change the fact I am proud America didn't see colour in this race really.....
True. Thumbs up to America :up: Maybe some day they will elect a woman (just hope it won't be Sarah Palin).

[Jag_Warrior]

Fousto,

In regard to the "Where Are They Now?", I'm sorry to have to tell you that you have been made the victim of an internet myth that has circulated since late last year. It's much like the ones that claimed that Obama was born in Africa, that he is actually a (secret) Muslim, that Sarah Palin's last child was actually the first illegitimate baby of her daughter Bristol, that McCain's (adopted) daughter from Bangladesh was actually a Black girl from an affair he had with a Black woman when he and Cindy were having problems. In fact, the exact wording of the last portion of your post is from a widely circulated email that was a hoax - I got it too. Though it is true that Jim Johnson served in an unpaid position on Obama's VP search committee... for one week. I get these things all the time. When it deals with politics, I usually stop by FactCheck.org before taking what's found on the internet as fact.

The point of my post was to try to shed some light on the complexity of this situation and the intertwined nature of the markets. It was not to suggest that the people you mentioned were not the "bad guys". I am simply pointing out that there was a great number of bad guys & girls in this.

From a political board that I post on, it eventually became obvious to me that it was much easier for many people to believe that it was just Lil Johnny who was to blame for burning down the house... because he was obviously playing with matches. But with a better understanding of the situation and (true) root cause analysis, you find out that Dad was storing gasoline in the family room, Mom had 20 gallons of fingernail polish remover in the bedroom, Sister Sue had 14 appliances plugged into one outlet and Brother Bob had built a moonshine still in the basement.

Considering that there were a hundred plus government goofs in charge of doing nothing but keeping an eye on FNMA and FHLMC's books, it amazes me that the fraud that took place wasn't found sooner. Without discounting the fraud, I would not ignore that fact.

AIG was brought down because of excessive exposure in the derivative markets, largely based on MBS trading. I would not ignore that either.

There were politicians who turned a blind eye to rather obvious issues at FNMA and FHLMC - mostly Democrats. And there were politicians who turned a blind eye to the inherent risk of allowing the derivative markets to remain largely unregulated - mostly Republicans.

Some just want to discuss Lil Johnny's role in the fire that burned down the house. But if I was the Fire Marshal, I'd have Lil Johnny... Dad, Mom, Sister Sue and Brother Bob down at the police station too.

[Jag_Warrior]

True. Thumbs up to America :up: Maybe some day they will elect a woman (just hope it won't be Sarah Palin).

Why do you want to get me started?! Why???!!! :monster:

[Mark in Oshawa]

True. Thumbs up to America :up: Maybe some day they will elect a woman (just hope it won't be Sarah Palin).

Eki..what bothers me is all the libreal democratic types who have bemoaning the fact a woman has never been elected to President or Vice-President who then went after Palin tooth and nail before the ink was even dry on the press release announcing her candidacy.

While I don't expect left wing women to want to vote for Palin, they didn't exactly prove any kind of consistentancy being quiet while the same tactics people used to attack Hillary or other prominent Democrats were then turned on Sarah.

Either you want women in politics or you don't and many women on the Democratic side of the ledger led the charge in some pretty unseemly and dirty attacks on Palin. Tactics that they were outraged about when the Republicans went after Hillary....

Personally...I think a woman in the White House or VP slot is going to happen in the next 2 decades but I don't think it will be Hillary or Sarah. I think it is someone we haven't heard of yet.

[Roamy]

Ssssh!!!! The rest of the world might actually take note of this and start to wonder just how much "change" there is in "Change you can believe in".......

Yes we can be cynical...and this has been why!!!

AS for you being overdue for a black President in the US...yes it is overdue because the black community has been part of the USA for as long as there has been one...took you almost 100 years to rid your nation of slavery, another 100 almost to finally acknowledge the blacks role in society being equal to the whites and 50 years farther on they get a Black President. Colour should mean nothing in politics and my objection to Obama was based more on who he hangs around with and his connections to people like Franklin Raines and the like..but it doens't change the fact I am proud America didn't see colour in this race really.....

Well based on that theory we should have had a native american president before a black and then a Hispanic pres next.

[Eki]

Personally...I think a woman in the White House or VP slot is going to happen in the next 2 decades but I don't think it will be Hillary or Sarah. I think it is someone we haven't heard of yet.
There's also Condoleeza Rice. I'm sure she's not dumb, but I don't like the folks she's been hanging out with. At least Colin Powell was smart enough to leave the sinking ship.

[Roamy]

Fousto,

In regard to the "Where Are They Now?", I'm sorry to have to tell you that you have been made the victim of an internet myth that has circulated since late last year. It's much like the ones that claimed that Obama was born in Africa, that he is actually a (secret) Muslim, that Sarah Palin's last child was actually the first illegitimate baby of her daughter Bristol, that McCain's (adopted) daughter from Bangladesh was actually a Black girl from an affair he had with a Black woman when he and Cindy were having problems. In fact, the exact wording of the last portion of your post is from a widely circulated email that was a hoax - I got it too. Though it is true that Jim Johnson served in an unpaid position on Obama's VP search committee... for one week. I get these things all the time. When it deals with politics, I usually stop by FactCheck.org before taking what's found on the internet as fact.

The point of my post was to try to shed some light on the complexity of this situation and the intertwined nature of the markets. It was not to suggest that the people you mentioned were not the "bad guys". I am simply pointing out that there was a great number of bad guys & girls in this.

From a political board that I post on, it eventually became obvious to me that it was much easier for many people to believe that it was just Lil Johnny who was to blame for burning down the house... because he was obviously playing with matches. But with a better understanding of the situation and (true) root cause analysis, you find out that Dad was storing gasoline in the family room, Mom had 20 gallons of fingernail polish remover in the bedroom, Sister Sue had 14 appliances plugged into one outlet and Brother Bob had built a moonshine still in the basement.

Considering that there were a hundred plus government goofs in charge of doing nothing but keeping an eye on FNMA and FHLMC's books, it amazes me that the fraud that took place wasn't found sooner. Without discounting the fraud, I would not ignore that fact.

AIG was brought down because of excessive exposure in the derivative markets, largely based on MBS trading. I would not ignore that either.

There were politicians who turned a blind eye to rather obvious issues at FNMA and FHLMC - mostly Democrats. And there were politicians who turned a blind eye to the inherent risk of allowing the derivative markets to remain largely unregulated - mostly Republicans.

Some just want to discuss Lil Johnny's role in the fire that burned down the house. But if I was the Fire Marshal, I'd have Lil Johnny... Dad, Mom, Sister Sue and Brother Bob down at the police station too.
The fact is as I have mentioned many many times. Washington needs to be gutted and we need a viable 3rd party. We are so inbred in washington it has become a deplorable cesspool that we are to lazy or stupid to "Flush"

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fousto...your system wont really accomodate a 3rd party. The system works best with 2 parties...comprimising and learning to get along with each other formulating policy.
A 3rd Party had its best chances with Perot and John Anderson in the 1980 election. What usually happens tho is votes are split and there is no true 50% of the people behind a presidential candidate. In short...you have what we have in Canada and other nations where your leader is a guy/gal who has less than 50% of the country admitting they voted for them.

[TOgoFASTER]

Either you want women in politics or you don't and many women on the Democratic side of the ledger led the charge in some pretty unseemly and dirty attacks on Palin. Tactics that they were outraged about when the Republicans went after Hillary....


It's a dirty game of which both sides engage. One no better than the other, which doesn't say much for either overall.
Gender doesn't matter with the named above . Both got hosed on their own merits.
The Palinites need to stop the whining along with her.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Togo..I actually don't think Palin has said a lot herself. Lots of people on her behalf mind you....but she hasn't said much.

Palin is an enigma...some think she is dumb as a brick and yet there are many who will attest she is smarter than the portrayal....

[Jag_Warrior]

Eki..what bothers me is all the libreal democratic types who have bemoaning the fact a woman has never been elected to President or Vice-President who then went after Palin tooth and nail before the ink was even dry on the press release announcing her candidacy.

While I don't expect left wing women to want to vote for Palin, they didn't exactly prove any kind of consistentancy being quiet while the same tactics people used to attack Hillary or other prominent Democrats were then turned on Sarah.


When the Dems wanted to bring down Clarence Thomas during his confirmation, who did they use to bring the rope to lynch him? A Black woman with strange and bizarre stories about pubic hairs on Coke cans and such. What's the old saying? Politics makes stange bedfellows.



Either you want women in politics or you don't and many women on the Democratic side of the ledger led the charge in some pretty unseemly and dirty attacks on Palin. Tactics that they were outraged about when the Republicans went after Hillary....


Again, I'd refer back to the Clarence Thomas affair. If Anita Hill had been White, there would have been riots in the streets and Blacks would still be voting for Republicans over Dems by a 5/4 ratio by now (IMO). But not many Blacks cared for Thomas' politics, so few came to his rescue. Same with Palin. Especially with a lot of college age women, Palin was looked at by some like an Evangelical man in a dress.

A friend of mine's wife I would describe as a "swing voter". She, like myself, believes that anyone who is a straight ticket voter is a sheep. Whether you're a Jew, Gentile, Black, White, male or female, I also think that's true. If a party or candidate knows they can play identity politics, and your vote is in the bag no matter what, there's a greater likelihood you'll be played for a fool, IMO. This woman is not a true N.O.W. type, but she gets on the women's lib kick every now and again. And while I'd call her a moderate, she's more liberal than conservative, I'd say. A lot of people on here probably think I'm pretty rough on Sarah Palin (Nah! Get outta here! :D ). But most of the initial tidbits I got on Sarah I got from this woman. She was eventually emailing me so much stuff on Palin that her husband began to think that there was something odd going on between us. You could say "Sarah Palin" in front of her and she'd get this look on her face like a cat that just had his ears pulled. She's a nice person, but there was something about Palin that produced a red mist of pure purple passion hatred within her. I know Markabilly thinks that women turned on Palin just because they are catty by nature (which I don't believe). I think it had more to do with Sarah's politics and the way she presented herself (or didn't present herself). My buddy's wife also didn't like Hillary, but not because she felt she was a wingnut, silly or unprepared. She just thought Hillary (and Slick Willy) was a slimey, crooked lawyer. Neither she nor her husband supported Clinton for President in the 90's. And neither liked Bush after Iraq. But if McCain had picked a more moderate female candidate, I believe she would have been more inclined to vote for McCain. She probably wouldn't have because she was solid Obama early on. He was set to vote for McCain, but the daily speeches about Palin from his bedroom eventually turned him against McCain/Palin too. But a sure way to get more than a few women under the age of 40 to walk away from you is to let there be ANY question on how you feel about Roe v. Wade. And that's where Palin found (finds) herself. So while I think she (and many other women) want to see a woman in the White House, she wasn't going to vote for one who opposed views that she was deadly serious about.



Personally...I think a woman in the White House or VP slot is going to happen in the next 2 decades but I don't think it will be Hillary or Sarah. I think it is someone we haven't heard of yet.

I think it's virtually guaranteed. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see both parties run a woman somewhere on the ticket in 2016.

I also don't think it'll be Hillary. She's pretty well tabled for 2012 and she'll be close to 70 by 2016. Could happen, but I kinda doubt it. I think Sarah's future depends on her becoming a U.S. Senator (she's out as governor next year) and how the war within the GOP turns out. If the Evangelicals and neocons win, she may get some backing to fight in the primaries for 2012 or 2016. But if she doesn't make it to the Senate, I don't see that she's going to have a platform to voice her opinions.

Hey, last thing. I was watching Larry King while I was in Detroit several months back. Chris Rock was on. I can't stand either one, so that says how bored I was. King asked Rock about Black support for Obama. Rock's response was actually pretty interesting. He said something like "Yeah, we want to see it. But we want to see the right one. We're not going to vote for Flava Flave to be President!" Maybe there's the answer right there. Women want to see it, but it has to be the "right" woman.

[Mark in Oshawa]

[quote="Jag_Warrior"]When the Dems wanted to bring down Clarence Thomas during his confirmation, who did they use to bring the rope to lynch him? A Black woman with strange and bizarre stories about pubic hairs on Coke cans and such. What's the old saying? Politics makes stange bedfellows.[quote="Jag_Warrior"]

Jag; the thing is if Clarence wasn't a conservative, the media would have been outraged by such tactics. The hypocracy on how conservatives and libreals are treated by the media is often more obvious than people are willing to admit.

[quote="Jag_Warrior"]Again, I'd refer back to the Clarence Thomas affair. If Anita Hill had been White, there would have been riots in the streets and Blacks would still be voting for Republicans over Dems by a 5/4 ratio by now (IMO). But not many Blacks cared for Thomas' politics, so few came to his rescue. Same with Palin. Especially with a lot of college age women, Palin was looked at by some like an Evangelical man in a dress......

Hey, last thing. I was watching Larry King while I was in Detroit several months back. Chris Rock was on. I can't stand either one, so that says how bored I was. King asked Rock about Black support for Obama. Rock's response was actually pretty interesting. He said something like "Yeah, we want to see it. But we want to see the right one. We're not going to vote for Flava Flave to be President!" Maybe there's the answer right there. Women want to see it, but it has to be the "right" woman[quote="Jag_Warrior"]

As for you watching Larry King and Chris Rock, Chris is smart enough to know that not every black man was worthy of his vote but a disarmingly large number of blacks were voting for Obama for no other reason.

I think most Americans of the moderate and conservative camp were wishing Obama wasn't coming from the left of his party. A black president was something most people didn't see coming when it actually happened. I thank god at least y'all were not dumb enough to have elected someone like a Jesse Jackson, the last serious candidate the primaries saw as a black.

[Mark in Oshawa]

damn quotes didn't work....

[Jag_Warrior]

On your quotes, you just forgot to close them. Just end the quote with "[/", the word "quote" and "]".


Jag; the thing is if Clarence wasn't a conservative, the media would have been outraged by such tactics. The hypocracy on how conservatives and libreals are treated by the media is often more obvious than people are willing to admit.

On the way the media tends to treat conservatives here, I believe you are correct. But even as a conservative, if the Dems had used a White female as the pawn to bring him down, I still believe there would have been hell to pay.

But if Thomas had been a liberal, I don't think the GOP would have used that kind of cheap political stunt. I don't know how they could have attacked him, but I don't think they would/could have used a woman telling tales like you'd read in the Penthouse Forum, whether she was White, Black or whatever.



As for you watching Larry King and Chris Rock, Chris is smart enough to know that not every black man was worthy of his vote but a disarmingly large number of blacks were voting for Obama for no other reason.

I'm sure that's true. But I don't have the data to tell how many voted for Obama who would have otherwise not voted, or would have voted for McCain. But I would say it is true to some degree - just don't know how much. I thought I read on another board that the President who has received the highest proportion of the Black vote was LBJ in '64. I'll have to see if I can verify that later. Looking at causation, there are always primaries and secondaries. I mean, I think Obama got heavier Black support than Jesse Jackson ever did. And other than Rev. Al, isn't Jesse pretty much Soul Brother #1... or was? And Alan Keyes would probably need an armed escort to walk through the Southside of Chicago. So I think there are likely other contributors besides race (though it could be the primary factor). Otherwise Jackson and Keyes would have each received high percentages of the Black vote when they ran. I'm not aware that either did. Without data, I'd just be guessing. Some smart kid working on his Sociology thesis should take the time to collect and analyze this data so we could just Google it! :D



I think most Americans of the moderate and conservative camp were wishing Obama wasn't coming from the left of his party. A black president was something most people didn't see coming when it actually happened. I thank god at least y'all were not dumb enough to have elected someone like a Jesse Jackson, the last serious candidate the primaries saw as a black.

I'd say that any (true) conservatives who crossed over did so because of something lacking in the McCain/Palin camp. Once Forbes and Buckley started unloading on McCain/Palin, it didn't look good. As for moderates and independents, I think you're right. People always wish for a candidate who most closely represents their stand on things. Like myself, once I came off the Barr vote, that one came down to which one I thought would do the most good and the least amount of harm. The lesser of two evils thing. McCain should have picked someone else as his VP pick and developed a stronger team of economic advisors. Social issues I generally don't care about as much. But ditching Phil Gramm and Sarah Palin would have gone a long way to bringing me into the McCain camp.

He probably picked a bad time to say it, but I think Bill Clinton was accurate in likening the previous Jackson campaign to a fantasy. I'm not sure what you've heard, but Jesse Jackson has never had broad support in the U.S. Just a niche candidate who used to make a lot of noise, usually about racial issues. Jesse is truly a one-trick pony. Besides, you can't be POTUS if you refer to New York as "Hymietown". Powerful people in high places cannot be offended, if you are to attain the office of President. Jackson violated that rule. Notice how every candidate (no matter which party) will trip all over themselves pledging allegiance to the interests of Israel? Interesting, eh? Jackson and the Rainbow marchers might shake your company down for money, but he was never going to be President of the U.S.

[TOgoFASTER]

Togo..I actually don't think Palin has said a lot herself. Lots of people on her behalf mind you....but she hasn't said much.

Palin is an enigma...some think she is dumb as a brick and yet there are many who will attest she is smarter than the portrayal....

She hasn't had much to say in the substance department. Maybe something there maybe not. To me it does say something about her preparedness for the office she was running for.
Whining daily in a biased format about the spilled milk does nothing to help.
Right now she is an enigma of her own creation as much as Hillary is.

I'll stick with both got hosed on their merits, not gender.

[Easy Drifter]

I don't and I don't expect any of us to know how good a President, Obama will be. I do not know how smart he really is.
Some of the best leaders the world has ever seen were really not all that brilliant on their own.
But the were sharp enough to know and admit that. They were smart enough to get good advisers, often with different points of view and listen to them. Then they made their decisions based on experts in their respective fields advice. They did have to figure out which expert was right!
Right now we have in Canada a Prime Minister who I feel tends to think he is smarter than anyone else. The result has got him in trouble a couple of times.
The previous leader of the opposition was even worse and got slaughtered in the last election. He had a 'green' platform even he couldn't explain and most of his party wanted nothing to do with but he overuled all advice.
Time will tell and for all our sakes I hope Obama is pretty darn good.

[Jag_Warrior]

Time will tell and for all our sakes I hope Obama is pretty darn good.

I hope so too. Something that my grandfather used to say that I began saying on the CART vs. IRL boards years ago: there's never been a rowboat where just one end of it sinks.

It sounds a lot cooler in Italian, but I'm rusty.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Jag...it lost a little in the translation.....

As for Jessie Jackson, he was the only black candidate of note to get any kind of noise out of being in a race for either party. I didn't say he was a good choice...I always thought he was a buffoon.

[Roamy]

Fousto...your system wont really accomodate a 3rd party. The system works best with 2 parties...comprimising and learning to get along with each other formulating policy.
A 3rd Party had its best chances with Perot and John Anderson in the 1980 election. What usually happens tho is votes are split and there is no true 50% of the people behind a presidential candidate. In short...you have what we have in Canada and other nations where your leader is a guy/gal who has less than 50% of the country admitting they voted for them.

Wrong Wrong you are - A 3rd party would eliminate voting just with party lines and give the people a legit chance to throw a asshole out of office as a rep or dem could vote outside their own party very easily. It is in fact the solution we need

[Mark in Oshawa]

Wrong Wrong you are - A 3rd party would eliminate voting just with party lines and give the people a legit chance to throw a asshole out of office as a rep or dem could vote outside their own party very easily. It is in fact the solution we need

Fousto...your guys vote against party lines more often a member of Parliament in the UK, or Canada.

You want a mess, add a party or two more and then watch the electorate split 3 ways with no clear majority. Some might consider this good since anything that gets passed is a comprimise but the electoral college demands a clear majority of votes. You would have runoff elections for President. Try making the world's longest election campaigns two times as along. Your system is clunky but it works after a fact.

The reason you don't like the two current choices you have means you want a third choice...but trust me..that third choice will annoy you in the end. I come from a land of 5 parties...and it is just voting for the lesser of 5 evils.

[Hondo]

Maybe I'll form the "Nannie's Pantry" Party and run for office. I'd be a shoo in in Louisiana. If you're from the US, you've probably never seen a bigger group of people that figure the world owes them something just because they were born. If you're from Europe, you probably have that mindset going on already. Once I get done promising to double the handouts, benefits, and entitlements along with getting ACORN to register my European voters, I'll be in the Governor's house in no time, with a Senate seat soon to follow! I'll:

Stop wasting money on public schools since the little beggars have no interest in learning and their parent (get it...parent, singular?) could care less about backing up the school, teacher, or helping with homework.

Double the state income tax on the fools that still believe in working for a living. After all, if you're a patriot, paying taxes is a privilege. Right Joe?

Abolish the taxes on any malt liquor product, wine with a twist-off cap, and menthal cigarettes.

Release and deport any prisoners held on drug convictions to user friendly countries. Amsterdam sounds good.

Drill for oil and gas everywhere in the state.

Expand the number of casinos on the state's borders.

Do away with speed limits, air bags, and seat belts. Time was when idiots that never grasped the concept of operating a motor vehicle eventually did themselves in by smacking Mr. Tree or driving off of Mr. Bridge. Now they survive and pass those no-driving genes on to their offspring.

Yessir, ingrown toenail and can't work? Grannie Fiero will get you a check. Don't want to work but got no place to stay? Grannie Fiero will let you stay with the rich man. Whadda mean the rich guy left the state? Burned his house and left, eh? Wonder why? Well, you can camp in his yard until we find another rich....eh, they all left? How am I supposed to support all of you with no rich folks around to tax?

No problem. I'll go to DC and get us a bail out.

It worked for the Democrats, it worked for Mugabe, it will work for me!

Vote Fiero!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe I'll form the "Nannie's Pantry" Party and run for office. I'd be a shoo in in Louisiana. If you're from the US, you've probably never seen a bigger group of people that figure the world owes them something just because they were born. If you're from Europe, you probably have that mindset going on already. Once I get done promising to double the handouts, benefits, and entitlements along with getting ACORN to register my European voters, I'll be in the Governor's house in no time, with a Senate seat soon to follow! I'll:

Stop wasting money on public schools since the little beggars have no interest in learning and their parent (get it...parent, singular?) could care less about backing up the school, teacher, or helping with homework.

Double the state income tax on the fools that still believe in working for a living. After all, if you're a patriot, paying taxes is a privilege. Right Joe?

Abolish the taxes on any malt liquor product, wine with a twist-off cap, and menthal cigarettes.

Release and deport any prisoners held on drug convictions to user friendly countries. Amsterdam sounds good.

Drill for oil and gas everywhere in the state.

Expand the number of casinos on the state's borders.

Do away with speed limits, air bags, and seat belts. Time was when idiots that never grasped the concept of operating a motor vehicle eventually did themselves in by smacking Mr. Tree or driving off of Mr. Bridge. Now they survive and pass those no-driving genes on to their offspring.

Yessir, ingrown toenail and can't work? Grannie Fiero will get you a check. Don't want to work but got no place to stay? Grannie Fiero will let you stay with the rich man. Whadda mean the rich guy left the state? Burned his house and left, eh? Wonder why? Well, you can camp in his yard until we find another rich....eh, they all left? How am I supposed to support all of you with no rich folks around to tax?

No problem. I'll go to DC and get us a bail out.

It worked for the Democrats, it worked for Mugabe, it will work for me!

Vote Fiero!

Sounds like they are on that plan down there already...

Note to all who want the state to pay for everything....where you think the state gets ITS money from ? Has a government run ANYTHING right to start with?

[TOgoFASTER]

LOL Sounds like one needs to find a good gated community or send the locals to the reservation.
Of course being free to move....

I hear Eastern Oklahoma is a nice place.

[steve_spackman]

LOL Sounds like one needs to find a good gated community or send the locals to the reservation.
Of course being free to move....

I hear Eastern Oklahoma is a nice place.

ive heard that its a nice place too..may have to visit some time..any offers on showing me around?