What people Believe....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Intereseting. I have been home all week and spent WAY too much time on here arguing about things I probably wouldn't spend as much intellectual energy on as I should.

That said, it is curious how people formulate or think of what they believe or not believe. Not even so much politically but as something greater.

I know for instance that on racing forums or on lighter topics, Steve Spackman and myself have agreed or at least been friendly in our sparring. Yet on something as polarizing as the Gaza thread, we are so far apart you cant seem to find any common ground.

It is curious how people can agree or disagree on almost everything and yet hold similar values on some level.

So I am asking....where did your formulative opinions on political and world issues come from? Why are you a small c conservative or a small l liberal? Or are you just able to jump from topic to topic and be of an interesting bent. Fiero 5.7 seems to be one of those people I find who can be in agreement with me on something and a topic similar be opposite to what I expect. Others such as Eki are consistent in their approach and confusing to me to where this motivation comes from. Understand there is no right and wrong and I take little offense actually from the debate, I enjoy it but I am curious to see some of you tell the world where your opinions grow out of and how your background maybe shaped it.....

For instance, most of you have gathered I am a small c conservative. That said...a Conservative Canadian would likely be a moderate in the US and maybe a libreal in some parts of the world. My father came from a union background and my grandfather was an active supporter of left wing CCF (now NDP) party in Canada. So my views came through that prism. I am sympathetic to some left wing ideas and I am not an idealouge but I have learned in the last 40 years that we shouldn't always do or think something is right because it make us feel good. We should advocate or do things that actually work. Working with the reality we have rather than wishing it isn't so is another tenet of mine. The global climate change advocates keep running up against this with me because I am in favour of dealing with the effects of the climate change rather than spending billions in the naive hope we can stop the change when we cant even be sure that the process isn't natural cycle in the earth's history.

Many of you feel otherwise but that is my point. How did you get to the positions philsophically that you do? There are no right or wrong answers. Some of us are programmed to be philsophical about every issue..some see it through a right or leftwing prism and some of us are just ambivalent and never really think of where our views of the world come from.

Thoughts anyone?

[steve_spackman]

Intereseting. I have been home all week and spent WAY too much time on here arguing about things I probably wouldn't spend as much intellectual energy on as I should.

That said, it is curious how people formulate or think of what they believe or not believe. Not even so much politically but as something greater.

I know for instance that on racing forums or on lighter topics, Steve Spackman and myself have agreed or at least been friendly in our sparring. Yet on something as polarizing as the Gaza thread, we are so far apart you cant seem to find any common ground.

It is curious how people can agree or disagree on almost everything and yet hold similar values on some level.

So I am asking....where did your formulative opinions on political and world issues come from? Why are you a small c conservative or a small l liberal? Or are you just able to jump from topic to topic and be of an interesting bent. Fiero 5.7 seems to be one of those people I find who can be in agreement with me on something and a topic similar be opposite to what I expect. Others such as Eki are consistent in their approach and confusing to me to where this motivation comes from. Understand there is no right and wrong and I take little offense actually from the debate, I enjoy it but I am curious to see some of you tell the world where your opinions grow out of and how your background maybe shaped it.....

For instance, most of you have gathered I am a small c conservative. That said...a Conservative Canadian would likely be a moderate in the US and maybe a libreal in some parts of the world. My father came from a union background and my grandfather was an active supporter of left wing CCF (now NDP) party in Canada. So my views came through that prism. I am sympathetic to some left wing ideas and I am not an idealouge but I have learned in the last 40 years that we shouldn't always do or think something is right because it make us feel good. We should advocate or do things that actually work. Working with the reality we have rather than wishing it isn't so is another tenet of mine. The global climate change advocates keep running up against this with me because I am in favour of dealing with the effects of the climate change rather than spending billions in the naive hope we can stop the change when we cant even be sure that the process isn't natural cycle in the earth's history.

Many of you feel otherwise but that is my point. How did you get to the positions philsophically that you do? There are no right or wrong answers. Some of us are programmed to be philsophical about every issue..some see it through a right or leftwing prism and some of us are just ambivalent and never really think of where our views of the world come from.

Thoughts anyone?

my views stem from my travels, the places i have been the places i have lived and the people i speak to

Alot of it also comes from what part of the world you come from, what religion you practice, what kinda of society you are brought up into?

Its a huge number of things that make you think the way you do.

it can also come from any form of good/ bad experience you have had..my mother died when i was 5 years old..that made me see the world from a whole new angle.

[Jag_Warrior]

Excellent questions, Mark.

I guess I am basically the way I am, think the way I think, because of my mother and father and how I was raised. My father was a sort of larger than life figure in my eyes: very tall, powerfully built, stoic, serious and with a very deep work ethic. He also had a deep sense of fairness and justice. My mother was a teacher and I was in "home schooling", before the term became a modern political fad term. So after my mother taught me to read and write beginning at age 3 or so, my father would set up a boxing bag and teach me to fight. I was far from understanding the whole "duality of man" concept at that point, but I was made to understand that while knowledge was important, it was equally important that you be able to defend your point of view (and yourself) through actions, if words failed you. My father was born in 1914 - back when men were still (real) men. And seeing how he lived his life, how he treated people and how he required people to treat him, has all had an immense affect on how I now live my life and how I see things. Since his death a couple of years ago, that is even more true.

As for political stances, I admit that I am not always consistent. I consider myself to be a rather conservative libertarian (small "l") = live and let live, as long as you don't interfere with me or mine. I object to the neocon movement in the U.S. as much as I object to extreme left wing movements... maybe more. IMO, while a commie might try to wrap his lie in sweetness, goodness and fairness, a typical neocon is more of a snake. Neocons seem much more willing to be traitorous hypocrits, who would sell out the United States in the interest of money or to the pleasure of foreign powers. And they do this while wrapping themselves in the flag. There just seems to be more venom and a lack of willingness to use reason or logic in the extreme right than the extreme left these days. Maybe that's just my perception. I could be wrong, but it does seem that way. Bush and Cheney "shooting from the hip" and following their "gut feel" is against the business methodology that I've been trained in and believe in. I've sought to fire people like that. To have that type of mideset running the country hasn't given me the warm & fuzzies - though I voted for Bush in 2000 (I feel betrayed). And it's proven to be disasterous for the nation, if not the world.

But you are right about various people. One fellow who I've expressed for awhile that I like and respect is Indycool. On CCF, that got some of the bunker dwellers lathered up. "He's the enemy!!!" No, he and I simply had different preferences in one area: American Open Wheel Racing. I've never met him, but outside of that one area, I tend to agree with him on a great many topics. But then there are other people, like Defender. I don't object to him because of his preference for the IRL. But he said something vile about Alex Zanardi after he was almost killed. Whether in the IRL or CART or CCWS, I would object to anyone who wished harm on or made fun of a seriously injured pilot. I have not forgotten that. I know that Defender is a fat, out of shape, rather ignorant old man. But I cannot promise that the appoinment that I made for my foot to meet his azz still would not be kept if I was ever introduced to him. That is something that in over a 18 years of being on the internet and/or Compuserve that I have EVER said about someone - not Tony George, not Kevin Kalkhoven, not Andy Evans, not even James Grosfeld.

But all that aside, what fascinates me about this place is the international nature of the posters. And like you, when they are willing to share the basis for their views, it becomes that much more facscinating.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Jag...on a lot of levels you and I are very much of a similar vein although from a different origin. My dad is old school and still with me thank god, and my mom gave me a love of reading and debate. I suppose I am a libertarian on some levels and I am a social libreal on any human relationships until kids are involved..then Iam pretty old school and maybe conservative myself.

Your view on IC is the same as mine. I fought with the guy on the Champ Car forum for ages but I ended up really liking him and hope some day to take him up on his offer of a tour of the Speedway......

AS for our International posters...that is the people I am aiming this thread at I suppose. I understand most of those I know from the Champ Car/Indy Car posting over the years but it is still fun for people to examine their roots.

Steve....give us more background please.....

[donKey jote]

what's an international poster, one who posts from different countries? :)

[BDunnell]

My views generally stem from my upbringing, and especially from my left/liberal-leaning father. In fact, my interest in politics was enhanced no end by listening to satirical programmes on BBC radio, which my parents did every week. I wanted to be able to understand why everybody found the jokes so funny, so I started to absorb current affairs. I also spent my formative years living under Conservative governments that were often divisive and, later, increasingly useless and beset by problems, so it was an interesting time. The first election in which I was old enough to vote was the famous 1997 one when Labour came to power, and it was a really exhilarating day. That feeling didn't last...

I would certainly describe myself as liberal, especially on social issues, and I detest the sort of lazy right-wing thinking that is typified by certain popular newspapers in the UK (which are still extremely influential amongst the easily-influenced) and the more unreconstructed elements of the Conservative Party. However, I think there is a lot of lazy thinking on all sides of the political divide, both in politics and amongst the electorate, and a great deal of inconsistency, notably regarding the benefits of a market economy and private sector involvement in public services. There are aspects of my thinking that are quite conservative, but to no great extent, for other aspects of my views on those same issues (such as education) are, again, liberal.

[MrJan]

I often wonder where my views have actually come from. IOn terms of basic moral principles and several other areas it is largely from my parents. I choose not to vote at the minute but my parents are right wing in most of their views. I would have to say that the majority of opinions that I have are fairly influenced by my friends in similar situations, reasonably well off with Conservative family.

Ultimately I don't really classify myself as anything, some of my views can be seen as right wing, some left andf some liberal. If I really had to define it then I'd call it Janism :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I's say that i am fiscally conservative but socially, i'm quite a 'lefty'.

I have recently become aware of how ignorant some of the 'right' is when it comes to things such as immigration and sexuality.

But I get very frustrated by people who can't respect other peoples political leanings, whether it be 'left wingers' hating 'right wingers' or the other way round.

[steve_spackman]

Jag...on a lot of levels you and I are very much of a similar vein although from a different origin. My dad is old school and still with me thank god, and my mom gave me a love of reading and debate. I suppose I am a libertarian on some levels and I am a social libreal on any human relationships until kids are involved..then Iam pretty old school and maybe conservative myself.

Your view on IC is the same as mine. I fought with the guy on the Champ Car forum for ages but I ended up really liking him and hope some day to take him up on his offer of a tour of the Speedway......

AS for our International posters...that is the people I am aiming this thread at I suppose. I understand most of those I know from the Champ Car/Indy Car posting over the years but it is still fun for people to examine their roots.

Steve....give us more background please.....

I am a very social/ libreal kinda guy really.

I tend to get my views from my experience at school, college, Uni and through my travels meeting different people from different backgrounds,faiths, social standing and so forth....
As i said my mum died when i was 5 years old..that put a real different view in front of me. My dad was in the Royal Marines, so i got alot different perspectives from him too.

[steve_spackman]

I am a very social/ libreal kinda guy really.

I tend to get my views from my experience at school, college, Uni and through my travels meeting different people from different backgrounds,faiths, social standing and so forth....
As i said my mum died when i was 5 years old..that put a real different view in front of me. My dad was in the Royal Marines, so i got alot different perspectives from him too.

also dad was in the police so thats another place i have got alot of my views from...

[Easy Drifter]

I jokingly say I am to the right of Attila the Hun and Hagar the Horrible.
My parents were both both small c and large C Conservative. My mother was almost a backroom politician.
Semi religious Anglican both. I am agnostic.
There was quite a bit a of law in our family as one Grandfather was RNWMP (after being a gun for hire)! He rose to the rank of Inspector. An Uncle on my mother's side was a RCMP officer.
My dad was a lawyer and far more sedate than his brothers both of whom were rum runners although both ended up as respectable business men.
Even my dad was 'outside the law' at one time during the depression.
He was practising law in a small town (where he met my mother) in Manitoba and living in the Hotel. If you knew enough to ask and you were known you could get 'special beef' all year round. It was venison which was illegal to sell commercially. My dad was one of the hunting party of four that all lived in the hotel and supplied the venison. Dad was the main defence attorney in town. The others in the hunting party were the Crown Prosecutor, the Judge and the one Mountie in town.
The wildest of my uncles had been a mercenary, a sniper in WW1 and a Special Forces small arms instuctor in WW2. He trained quite a few US Rangers but they had to come to Canada for instruction. He could not go into the US. It was something about a load of booze and a US Border Patrol Agent and gunfire. I never did get the details.
Anyway I tend to be right wing but despite my joking not rabid. I read several papers, mostly on line now and watch various newscasts. Most Cdn. media is left wing and the Cdn. Broadcasting Corp. is often reffered to as the Communist Broadcasting Corp. as it is so left wing.
I read extensively and a lot of history, largely naval.
Not that it matters much as I am Cdn. but my ancestry is mostly Border Clan Scot with English, Irish, and a little Dutch and Spanish blood.
I have travelled extensively in Canada and the US as well as England. I spent most of my life involved in all aspects of racing as a driver, mechanic and official. I also held down a office job and was an officer of a fairly large financial institution for several years. For the last 20 years until I retired last spring I was a small business owner.
I have been a director of and President of a large Int'l Hobby organization with 90 plus member clubs and have written professionaly about that hobby. In other words I got paid. I also wrote for club publications (no money) and many of my articles were reprinted in other club publications.
I am being bugged by a few people to write a book about my time in motor racing but many of the best stories can't be told, at least not in writing. :eek:

[Mark in Oshawa]

......The first election in which I was old enough to vote was the famous 1997 one when Labour came to power, and it was a really exhilarating day. That feeling didn't last...

.... However, I think there is a lot of lazy thinking on all sides of the political divide, both in politics and amongst the electorate, and a great deal of inconsistency, notably regarding the benefits of a market economy and private sector involvement in public services. There are aspects of my thinking that are quite conservative, ...

Come on Mr. Dunnell....in about 10 to 15 years you almost might swing to the right...come to the dark SIDE...lol

[Mark in Oshawa]

As a follow up before I get myself back to work later on this weekend.....

I grew up in a left-wing house...at least in theory. My dad always said he voted NDP (Canada's sort of Labour Party if your Labour party was run by someone left of Neil Kinnock and right of Lenin) because they represented the working man. Ed Broadbent was the leader of the national NDP and was well respected and he is from my hometown and my Dad went to highschool with him. How did I end up being a conservative then?

Pretty simple. One...dad lost his job in 1981. The company was mismanaged. An American firm wanted to buy up the company and run it as a branch operation. They make lockers, industrial shelving and work benches much as Dad's company did. Dad being a tool and die maker met with some of the guys "kicking the tires" of the operation from the US and he said they were amazed how the company wasn't making money since they had stuff up in Oshawa that the company in the US were not doing. Anyhow...they wanted to employ everyone and had a deal worked out with the Steelworkers Union if the plant could be bought. One small problem. The NDP and their Anti-American attitude had fed and supported this idea that the Liberals later adopted of something called the Federal Industrial Review Agency (FIRA). Since the government was going to oversee any acquistions of Canadian businesses by foreign owners, they were called in and they nixed the deal because the Canadian competition whined about what was to happen. The deal was nixed...and in receivership the Canadian competitor bought up all the machinery and special dies and didn't employ ONE guy.

What was the lesson I learned? One...the government should have stayed the hell out of the way. Thanks to the NDP and PM Trudeau, we had government meddling forcing my father at 44 years of age to start looking for another job in the midst of the worst economy in Canada since the depression (we aren't that bad as we were THEN and likely wont be in this one). Dad was out of work almost a year because of this little bit of political interference.

So I deduced that the government isn't always there to do what is right by the people...it often is used as an idelogical weapon to meet some feel good namby pamby policy making by a bunch of people who at the time were just against anything American.

Another thing I learned that is in the end, the government never creates jobs, it can either make things easier for private industry to create jobs or hinder industry. Regulation is required...over regulation puts people out of work.

So that and I looked at the mess Jimmy Carter made in the US of the economy plus how our Canadian economy lingered in the gutter until after we got rid of Pierre Trudeau ( another Keynesian socialist at heart)4 years after the US elected Reagan and got their economy back on track ( no more misery index, Unemployment cut in half, interest rates back down to acceptable after being 20% in the Carter years); and I concluded that this conservative movement got some results.

Now I am not a hide bound conservative. As I said above, I am a social liberal on a lot of levels. I have no problem with the concept of gay marriage, but that means there has to be a freedom of religion to NOT accept it on some level as well. I am against abortion but as I am not a woman and I don't think people's minds change on this, I wouldn't outlaw it either. I am not hidebound to idelogy in a lot ways and very proud of my nation. I respect any solution that gets results but I also study history and realize that much of what is being advocated by a lot of politicians has been failures over and over again. Deficit spending without using the money to specifically grow the economy through the private sector is harmful. Deficit spending that is balanced by growth in the GDP is acceptable. Lower taxes and less government regulation is great but I understand you have to have a balance.....

In short..I believe a lot in the theory of Ying and Yang in economics, government and life. There....now I am done...

[Hondo]

My dad was a real live rocket scientist, Republican, fiscal conservative, active in the church, charitable organizations, and a firm believer in individual responsibility. My mother did volunteer work in the church and was a counsler in the church's summer day camps. She was also a volunteer swimming and lifesaving instructor for the YWCA. In her spare time, she taught english language to immigrant families and blacks to read and write, all as a volunteer. As a small child, having folks from what you might call "out of town" was not unusual in our home. Somewhat to dad's chagrin, she was not quite the fiscal conservative dad was but did a fine job of running the household within her budget. Like dad, mom was also a firm believer in individual responsibility. You seldom heard a cuss word from either and you never heard ethnic or racial slurs in our house. I may have been spanked by my parents maybe 3-4 times in my life. They generally employed more creative activities or lack thereof to allow you to ponder the consequences of your actions. They operated on the 3 count. If you didn't start moving on request, the count started...1...2...you didn't want to be still hanging around for 3. My sister and I got a small allowance on saturdays, half of which had to be dropped in the church offering plate on sunday. That was probably the beginning of my disdain with religion. We had certain chores assigned to us and there was always a list of extra jobs posted on the fridge door along with the amount of money you could pocket upon completion of the job. That income was free and clear, no church donation required. My parents were into fishing, bowling, and playing cards like Bridge and Pitch with neighbors. There was a jewish family next door that they were friends with I can remember no animosity in the neighborhood towards them. To this day I consider judism more of a religion than a race. Afterall, I could convert to judism but it would be tough to convert to negro. My parents were not given to violence, didn't hunt, and didn't really see a need for guns. The first gun in the house was the b-b rifle I got for my 9th birthday. I had to learn the rules of gun safety that came with it and got the stern talk from dad making it quite clear what would happen if I was convicted of a neighborhood complaint involving me and my b-b rifle. There were no convictions. Various neighbors would take me hunting with their kids and I know now that a friend's dad's feedback to my dad resulted in a completely unexpected Marlin lever action .22 rifle on my 10th birthday. The Marlin and the cartridges from then on resided on a 3 gun rack on the wall of my room. Two years later a Winchester single shot 16 gauge shot gun filled up the rack. Although the parents didn't hunt, they had no qualms about dining upon the rewards of the hunt. So that's basically the young years. I was raised in an honestly unprejudiced, religious, charitable household, that encourged individual effort and didn't believe the government should be in the handout business except for extraordinary circumstances. They both thought that welfare, although meant to be a hand up, would turn into a hand out and a lifestyle. In this, they were right. Dad was even friends with ol' Ron Paul before he became a Republican congressman. My prejudices came later upon exposure to real life at the adult, on-your-own level, if anyone cares to hear.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fiero...I find it interesting...if no one else does..

As for your dad being friends with Ron Paul...well I think your dad would likely part company on some of the stuff Paul was advocating at one point.

A Very American upbringing..in the best sense of the word....

[Eki]

When I was a teenager, I was very conservative and right wing and debated often with my parents who were rather liberal. For example, they criticized Reagan and I defended Reagan, etc. Now that I'm older I've learnt that the world isn't black and white, there's more than one side to every story, and my opinion isn't necessarily always the only correct one. I think I'm bit more like my parents were then.

[BDunnell]

Come on Mr. Dunnell....in about 10 to 15 years you almost might swing to the right...come to the dark SIDE...lol

I can honestly say that I will never vote Conservative as long as I live.

[Eki]

I can honestly say that I will never vote Conservative as long as I live.
I have slided to left. In the first elections I voted for a far-right party, then the mainstream conservative party and now recently I have voted for the mainstream center party. I can't honestly promise I will never vote a left wing party.

Someone once said very wisely "the Soviet Union is the reason why Finland will never become communist", and I believe it was true. I also believe that George W Bush and the US are reasons why Finland will never become conservative either, it will stay somewhere in between.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki..to us outsiders you come off as a left winger from your posts so I am curious to know what you would consider left wing politics. I do agree though that after Stalin's aborted attempt to put Finland BACK into the clutches of Moscow's control in 1940, Finland should know the dangers of communism. You guys are the only ones to face those thugs head on and come out somehow on top. Remarkable....probably why your hockey teams play so tough too eh?

[Eki]

Eki..to us outsiders you come off as a left winger from your posts so I am curious to know what you would consider left wing politics. I don't consider. It's considered for me by the news media and the politicians. IMO both the left wing and the right wing have some good and some bad ideas. I make my own opinions regardless if they are considered left wing or right wing.


I do agree though that after Stalin's aborted attempt to put Finland BACK into the clutches of Moscow's control in 1940, Finland should know the dangers of communism. You guys are the only ones to face those thugs head on and come out somehow on top. Remarkable....probably why your hockey teams play so tough too eh?
We've learnt when to hold them and learnt when to fold them. Knowing your enemy is important. Then you can think of better alternative strategies instead of "staying the course" and banging your head on the wall over and over again. Americans may think it as flip flopping and consider it a fault, we think it as learning from your mistakes and consider it a virtue.

[Jag_Warrior]

Someone once said very wisely "the Soviet Union is the reason why Finland will never become communist", and I believe it was true. I also believe that George W Bush and the US are reasons why Finland will never become conservative either, it will stay somewhere in between.

But please remember that George W. Bush and his neocon allies are not fiscal conservatives and they're certainly not libertarians, far from it. The origins of the neocons lie more with Leo Strauss and Leon Trotsky than John Quincy Adams or Thomas Jefferson. Ronald Reagan spoke these words many years ago: "If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."

I am proud to say that I voted for Ronald Reagan. I am ashamed to say that I voted for George W. Bush. It will likely take decades to repair the damage done to America by Bush and the neocons these past eight years. So don't dislike us because of Bush. We already regret what we did well enough.

[veeten]

Well, everyone should believe in something... so, I believe I'll have another drink. :beer:

;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

But please remember that George W. Bush and his neocon allies are not fiscal conservatives and they're certainly not libertarians, far from it. The origins of the neocons lie more with Leo Strauss and Leon Trotsky than John Quincy Adams or Thomas Jefferson. Ronald Reagan spoke these words many years ago: "If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."

I am proud to say that I voted for Ronald Reagan. I am ashamed to say that I voted for George W. Bush. It will likely take decades to repair the damage done to America by Bush and the neocons these past eight years. So don't dislike us because of Bush. We already regret what we did well enough.

Look at who ran against Bush. Gore is a fraud...talking about global warming and how we all have to cut back while flying on a private jet and living in a 22000 square foot mansion in Tennessee. Kerry is a Vietnam Vet who on paper had some gravitas but was trying to win an election against a guy considered a buffoon in a time where the US's prospects in Iraq were dim. It should have been a slam dunk....and they still screwed it up...and we also found out Kerry's military career was full of lies and little things he would like us all to ignore.....

As for the "stealing of the election" in 2000....don't even go there. The Republicans won every recount and the initial vote. The Democratic counties of South Florida ran the balloting and counting and STILL lost despite trying.

One of the great myth's is Bush stealing that election. He won it by a hair by the same rules every US election going back to the early days was run by.

No...Bush may not be your proudest moment Jag but I can tell you that the Democrats had every reason to win that second election and still flubbed it. The Win of Obama proves a well run campaign will win most of the time. McCain and his bumbling wavering of direction knocked him out of any serious contention.....

[Jag_Warrior]

As for the "stealing of the election" in 2000....don't even go there. The Republicans won every recount and the initial vote. The Democratic counties of South Florida ran the balloting and counting and STILL lost despite trying.

One of the great myth's is Bush stealing that election. He won it by a hair by the same rules every US election going back to the early days was run by.

I voted for Bush in 2000. I didn't like Gore then and I don't care for him now. Others might believe that Bush stole the election in 2000. But that's not something that I've ever said. I'm just sorry that he's turned out to be such a complete dud.



No...Bush may not be your proudest moment Jag but I can tell you that the Democrats had every reason to win that second election and still flubbed it. The Win of Obama proves a well run campaign will win most of the time. McCain and his bumbling wavering of direction knocked him out of any serious contention.....

The reason that I regret my initial vote for Bush is not because I've suddenly developed a love for Gore. But more because Bush did exactly what he said he would not do: nation building. We blew up Iraq for no good reason (other than Saddam being a "bad man"), and now we're plowing $10 billion a month in that hole, while they sit on their azzes with $80 billion in the bank. So we focused on Iraq with our men and money (loans from the Chinese), and this is where we are. Now the Taliban is kicking us in the nads in Afghanistan. And where is Osama??? Has anyone seen Osama? Some say he's in a cave in Pakistan. Others say he's living in a villa somewhere, getting his chicken choked by nubile sweet things. Our intelligence agencies (sycophants and yes men under Bush/Cheney) couldn't find their asses with both hands tied behind their backs. He could be living in a townhouse in Georgetown, taking tours of the White House every Wednesday, and these boobs couldn't find him.

I agree, Kerry ran a bad campaign. I didn't vote for either Bush or Kerry in 2004. By then, I knew (better) what neoconservatism was all about - said then that I'd never again vote for another dog of that stripe. And I could find no good reason to even think about voting for Kerry. "Lurch" didn't seem like he had much of a plan for anything, past what he and his obnoxious wife were going to have for dinner that night.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reason that I regret my initial vote for Bush is not because I've suddenly developed a love for Gore. But more because Bush did exactly what he said he would not do: nation building. We blew up Iraq for no good reason (other than Saddam being a "bad man"), and now we're plowing $10 billion a month in that hole, while they sit on their azzes with $80 billion in the bank. So we focused on Iraq with our men and money (loans from the Chinese), and this is where we are. Now the Taliban is kicking us in the nads in Afghanistan. And where is Osama??? Has anyone seen Osama? Some say he's in a cave in Pakistan. Others say he's living in a villa somewhere, getting his chicken choked by nubile sweet things. Our intelligence agencies (sycophants and yes men under Bush/Cheney) couldn't find their asses with both hands tied behind their backs. He could be living in a townhouse in Georgetown, taking tours of the White House every Wednesday, and these boobs couldn't find him.


Just so you know. When Obama has no more luck getting Osama...remember you said all of that.

Bush screwed up the Iraq war and while I was all for the princple of taking Saddam out and I bought into the idea you just couldn't wipe out the top of the country and leave, I was never truly convinced that Bush knew 100% for sure what he was getting the US of A into. The reason though I am a little defensive about all of this is no one from Hillary Clinton to John Kerry to Tom Dashcle had the balls when the Congress was voting on going to Iraq intially to point ANY of this out. Bush shared the intelligence briefs with the Democratic members of the Intelligence and defense committees and no one from there stopped this little exercise in disaster.

As for the cost while Iraq's budget is running surpluses...well they have the oil and Bush should be giving them some sort of bill to help pay for sure. That said, 20 years from now when Iraq is a productive member of the world community I think the US can honestly say something good came of it. Iraq will be better off 20 years from now if they keep on the road of democracy they have managed to be on. Obama will get his wish to get the troops out of Iraq and even he admitted in his interview with O'Reilly that he was wrong on the Surge and how Iraq was turning out......

It was a mess..but you Yanks got through it and you elected a guy you think will give you change. I hope for your sake things do work out ok because your economic future and growth drags us Canadians along in the slipstream....

[Camelopard]

Bush screwed up the Iraq war and while I was all for the princple of taking Saddam out ...

But to take out a whole country and kill thousands of innocent civilians is a 'tad over the top' isn't it?


That said, 20 years from now when Iraq is a productive member of the world community I think the US can honestly say something good came of it. Iraq will be better off 20 years from now if they keep on the road of democracy they have managed to be on...

So we are a soothsayer now are we? Bet no one thought that Afghanistan would turn into the sh*thole that it is now when all that support was given to our then bestest buddies, the Mujahideen.

What were your views on the Iraq Iran war, bet you were in favour of Iraq's invasion and all the help that the west gave them (including allegedly israeli intelligence) hoping to kick khomeinis but.

[Mark in Oshawa]

But to take out a whole country and kill thousands of innocent civilians is a 'tad over the top' isn't it?.

Gee...and no one was dying in Iraq before the Yanks showed up? Careful now....you do not want to go down this road. The UN and Amnesty International were both stating that 20000 people a year were dying under Saddam just for their supposed opposition. How about all those Kurd's he gassed? Oh right...that didn't happen?

Bush and the US made a lot of errors but spare me how Iraq was a peaceful little tranquil country with butterflies and love. Most of the civilians killed in the invasion were caught in the crossfire or by errors of war, not by any policy of targeting innocent civilians. Any civilian deaths afterwards were as much the cause of Islamic extremists trying to kill Americans as anything. If the US never went in there Saddam's regime of terror wasn't going to melt away into the night and many innocent civilians would continue to be held hostage and killed by the thug.



So we are a soothsayer now are we? Bet no one thought that Afghanistan would turn into the sh*thole that it is now when all that support was given to our then bestest buddies, the Mujahideen.

Afghanistan has been an unruly mess for about 2000 years. No one really rules it for long. Iraq is a more modern nation and has in the last year gained control over most of its territory and the US will be pulling out. Maliki has proven he isn't Bush's stooge but he still can be President and negotiate and work with the US troops there. There is something happening that wasn't there before and there is after 6 plus years of misery definitive progress. Was I a soothsayer? I am guessing...you can disagree but so far I have admitted that things were a mess there but I am pointing out things are getting better. You would be very happy I suppose for Iraq to be condemned to misery just to say it is Bush's fault?

[Camelopard]

Gee...and no one was dying in Iraq before the Yanks showed up?

Putting words in my mouth again! 'tad over the top' was directed at your comment on Hama and the Muslim Brotherhood or have you forgotten?


The Muslim Brotherhood are scum...but to wipe a whole town to get ride of them is a tad much.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I wasnt putting any words in your mouth intentionally. I am pointing out that before anyone gets pointing fingers at the Americans for civilian deaths that they better NEVER forget the legacy of death and misery Saddam Hussein was inflicting on his own nation.

As for my tad much comment...touche

[steve_spackman]

I wasnt putting any words in your mouth intentionally. I am pointing out that before anyone gets pointing fingers at the Americans for civilian deaths that they better NEVER forget the legacy of death and misery Saddam Hussein was inflicting on his own nation.

As for my tad much comment...touche

he couldnt of done this WITHOUT the help of our great friends the US of A..Yes the british, a few other governments had a helping hand

[steve_spackman]

Gee...and no one was dying in Iraq before the Yanks showed up? Careful now....you do not want to go down this road. The UN and Amnesty International were both stating that 20000 people a year were dying under Saddam just for their supposed opposition. How about all those Kurd's he gassed? Oh right...that didn't happen?

Bush and the US made a lot of errors but spare me how Iraq was a peaceful little tranquil country with butterflies and love. Most of the civilians killed in the invasion were caught in the crossfire or by errors of war, not by any policy of targeting innocent civilians. Any civilian deaths afterwards were as much the cause of Islamic extremists trying to kill Americans as anything. If the US never went in there Saddam's regime of terror wasn't going to melt away into the night and many innocent civilians would continue to be held hostage and killed by the thug.

What right did the US and 'her allies' have to invade Iraq??? WMDs...nah i think more like that stuff called 'texas tea'

Would you like Canada invaded just because another country didnt like your leader..

What Bush and co did in Iraq was war crime after war crime and as such, Bush and co should be tried for war crimes...

Iraq was a bad place when he was in power, but when he was taken from power, it didnt really make things any better..

[Hondo]

What right did the US and 'her allies' have to invade Iraq??? WMDs...nah i think more like that stuff called 'texas tea'

Would you like Canada invaded just because another country didnt like your leader..

What Bush and co did in Iraq was war crime after war crime and as such, Bush and co should be tried for war crimes...

Iraq was a bad place when he was in power, but when he was taken from power, it didnt really make things any better..

Oh it was about "Texas Tea" alright, but not just for the US. I'm telling you, ultimately it will come out that it was done to stop China's impending move on it, which I guess the powers-that-be decided would be in nobody's interest. Including Russia's, which is why they were so nice and quiet about the whole thing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What right did the US and 'her allies' have to invade Iraq??? WMDs...nah i think more like that stuff called 'texas tea'

Would you like Canada invaded just because another country didnt like your leader..

What Bush and co did in Iraq was war crime after war crime and as such, Bush and co should be tried for war crimes...

Iraq was a bad place when he was in power, but when he was taken from power, it didnt really make things any better..

Steve. The UN resolutions ending the Gulf war GIVE ON A LEGAL BASIS the right of the victorius powers of that first gulf war the right to reopen hostilities if Saddam Hussein didn't comply with the terms of Cease fire. Bush's daddy basically agreed to leave this jerk in power in return for unfettered access by the UN to all his weapons labs for any possible WMD research. Since Saddam jerked everyone around a few times, Bill Clinton threatened to reopen the war in 97. Saddam backed off THAT time although anyone knows Bill wouldn't have had the poltiical fortitude to invade again.

So it was a "legal" war. You might be better to argue if it was a morally justifed war. In that you may have a point, but legally, no the UK and US along with 50 other nations involved were on legal grounds. IF Bush didn't have legal justification, he wouldn't have the "coalition of the willing".

Second of all Canada can only be invaded by one nation. It was invaded when it was a colony in the War of 1812 by that nation, the US. In those days, you Brits were pressganging American sailors on the high seas into the Royal Navy, paying the Indians in the Midwest to make life miserable for Americans, and generally picking on the young US. So I kind of see why the US wanted that war. Not to mention the fact that wars were fought different then and conquest of new territory was something all major powers were part of. We live in a different world now and the US has matured.

What they did in Iraq was not pretty, probably ill-thought out and/or ill-advised but under the resolutions and agreement between Saddam and the Allies, and the UN who signed off on that cease fire the US, UK and company had the right to reopen that war. It is a loophole and cheesy in a sense but Saddam walked right into it. His whole reason for power was being a blowhard with nothing behind him. He terrorized and killed 20000 people a year on average, not to mention gassing about a half million Kurds after the first gulf war ( That there should have reopened the conflict but everyone was praising Bush Sr. for his patience and committment to peace I think) and I think all in all, no matter how much you THINK people in Iraq have suffered ( and I know that they have ); don't ever doubt that from here on out they are better off. Their GDP has skyrocketed in the last few years and muchof that wealth is getting spread around a little more than it was during the Saddam years.

I don't think you or I can say 100% for sure one way or the other what Saddam would have done if left alone but I can no doubt he would be threatening someone. IT is the M.O. he had during his entire rule. Attacking Iran, Invading Kuwait, threatening Kuwait. He threatened the free flow and free market of oil exports in the entire gulf. If you want that kind of madman owning the world's oil supply (for nations who don't have oil basically...that would be most of Europe and industrialized Asia) then hey...you were ok with Saddam. Most economists I think would agree having the world's oil market being dictated to by a madman like Saddam was yet just another reason he had to go. Just the US/UK coalition took the messy way to do it....

[gadjo_dilo]

Never thought about it before and I really hope that nobody takes my posts seriously. I don't do it myself and I admit some of my "views " don't really represent myself.

[Eki]

Never thought about it before and I really hope that nobody takes my posts seriously. I don't do it myself and I admit some of my "views " don't really represent myself.
I also "stretch" my views sometimes. I think forums are good opportunities to "think outside of the box".

[Camelopard]

I also "stretch" my views sometimes. I think forums are good opportunities to "think outside of the box".


WHAT? that's it Eki, I'm never sticking up for you again!