Do Ferrari ever learn?

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Ferrari are on course to bring their pitstop light system back into action this year, the team have confirmed, after making modifications to prevent a repeat of the dramas they suffered in 2008.

Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72621)

C'mon Stefano, you're shooting yourself in the foot here. Behind on KERS yet pissing about with this system which offers minimal gains at maximum risk.

When AI has been created, then implement it.

Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72621)

C'mon Stefano, you're shooting yourself in the foot here. Behind on KERS yet pissing about with this system which offers minimal gains at maximum risk.

When AI has been created, then implement it.

It depends on what the modifications are, surely?

Where's the evidence that Ferrari are behind on KERS anyway?

They are the first team to launch their 2009 challenger, which doesn't support that notion.

They might be behind, but then so might anybody.

[ioan]

Well, I'm not a fan of the system. I'll wait and see how it performs this time around.

As for KERS we have no idea about how far advanced they are or not.

[Powered by Cosworth]

Where's the evidence that Ferrari are behind on KERS anyway?

They are the first team to launch their 2009 challenger, which doesn't support that notion.

They might be behind, but then so might anybody.

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44806

Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to 'hate' on Ferrari here, i'm a Ferrari fan through and through. I just can't see why they'd re-introduce an idea that lost them the championship and highly embarassed them. Would you take the risk?

[Nikki Katz]

Maybe they're just trying to spice up the championship in case they have by far the best car next year - the knowledge that they might go a lap down during a pitstop could throw some excitement in :)

As far as KERS goes, I think that BMW look like the *only* team who will have it properly functioning by Australia, and even they said that they may not use it if there's too much of a weight penalty.

[Rollo]

As for KERS we have no idea about how far advanced they are or not.

I suspect that we'll not even have an idea of how advanced they are until the qualifying on the Saturday of the first GP. There could be a lot of benefit in foxing or fudging results that they publish, because if they are "seen" to be performing poorly then that means that they might have set the bar a little lower than otherwise - tactically that's smart.

[Chamoo]

I suspect that we'll not even have an idea of how advanced they are until the qualifying on the Saturday of the first GP. There could be a lot of benefit in foxing or fudging results that they publish, because if they are "seen" to be performing poorly then that means that they might have set the bar a little lower than otherwise - tactically that's smart.

No, I think they are just lagging behind. Every single report and rumor out there basically states how much trouble they are having with the KERS system.

Especially with Force India, they lost a bunch of Income due to the fact they told Mallya they couldn't guarentee they would have a functioning KERS system. Giving up money for a slight tactical advantage seems petty.

Also, the latest report they are partnering with Peugot to help with their KERS system since Peugot has already developed their own KERS system apparently mostly in-house. Apparently they are going to try to run their system in the prototype car to avoid having to test on the few remaining test days.

Everything points to Ferrari being behind schedule in regards to KERS.

[SGWilko]

I think that, the 'in principle' idea behind KERS is a good one.

However, what the FIA (MAX?) ought to have done was seek advice from the major manufacturers, oil companies, sponsors etc on which way to go is best and indeed most relevant.

We know that something along these lines was proposed a few years back by McLaren, so the idea behind it is hardly new.

However, when Toyota - the biggest pusher of hybrids (and you can assume the most closely aligned team) is luke warm on the idea, you know that the current system has cock all relevance to road cars.

Now, I must point out here that KERS is not mandatory this year, and I don't think there are any penalties for not using it, so if you have your doubts about its benefits, why bother wasting money. I have every faith that Max M will change the regs again soon anyway, such is his bafoonery these days.

As for the traffic lights, making errors by letting the guy go early can happen with (and has happened) with a lollipop, so, if Ferrari think they have now got a fallproof fully automated system that saves valuable nanoseconds, and they need to justify the initial investment in this direction, then good luck to them I say.

[ioan]

No, I think they are just lagging behind. Every single report and rumor out there basically states how much trouble they are having with the KERS system.

Especially with Force India, they lost a bunch of Income due to the fact they told Mallya they couldn't guarentee they would have a functioning KERS system. Giving up money for a slight tactical advantage seems petty.

Also, the latest report they are partnering with Peugot to help with their KERS system since Peugot has already developed their own KERS system apparently mostly in-house. Apparently they are going to try to run their system in the prototype car to avoid having to test on the few remaining test days.

Everything points to Ferrari being behind schedule in regards to KERS.


A bunch of money lost? What is that 15 milions out of 400? Some 3%! What a huge bunch, not to mention that it seems that they will supply those engines to the former Honda team.

As for the remaining test days, well Ferrari will have plenty of them at disposal given that they will be the first ones to launch their new contender.
And the move to team up with Peugeot is a genius stroke that will certainly have a positive outcome no matter how advanced or not the KERS system is.

[ioan]

However, what the FIA (MAX?) ought to have done was seek advice from the major manufacturers, oil companies, sponsors etc on which way to go is best and indeed most relevant.

No! Oil companies would ban anything electric if they could (well they already did so with some alternative energy source engines in the past)!

Sponsors? Do you think the sponsors care about the technology as long as they can paint the cars whatever they want?! Heck, not even 50% of the F1 fans are interested about the technology, that brings the sponsors interest in the involved technology up to a huge 0.1% IMO.



We know that something along these lines was proposed a few years back by McLaren, so the idea behind it is hardly new.

The idea isn't its implementation and use is new.



However, when Toyota - the biggest pusher of hybrids (and you can assume the most closely aligned team) is luke warm on the idea, you know that the current system has cock all relevance to road cars.

Yet I bet they will grab this opportunity with both hands, feets and teeth to promote their line of hybrid cars! :D



Now, I must point out here that KERS is not mandatory this year, and I don't think there are any penalties for not using it, so if you have your doubts about its benefits, why bother wasting money.

It's called a technical challenge, something F1 engineers like to take on.



As for the traffic lights, making errors by letting the guy go early can happen with (and has happened) with a lollipop, so, if Ferrari think they have now got a fallproof fully automated system that saves valuable nanoseconds, and they need to justify the initial investment in this direction, then good luck to them I say.

I hope they made it better and safer, but I still believe that more you complicate a system more you got possible error sources that multiply the chance to get an error.

[SGWilko]

No! Oil companies would ban anything electric if they could (well they already did so with some alternative energy source engines in the past)!

Sponsors? Do you think the sponsors care about the technology as long as they can paint the cars whatever they want?! Heck, not even 50% of the F1 fans are interested about the technology, that brings the sponsors interest in the involved technology up to a huge 0.1% IMO.



The idea isn't its implementation and use is new.



Yet I bet they will grab this opportunity with both hands, feets and teeth to promote their line of hybrid cars! :D



It's called a technical challenge, something F1 engineers like to take on.



I hope they made it better and safer, but I still believe that more you complicate a system more you got possible error sources that multiply the chance to get an error.

Sponsors will invest in a secure sporting event. Oilco's will put their input into anything that can sustain their profits. You think oil is never going to run out?

A technical challenge that swallows money to satisfy the men with big foreheads in the middle of a serious global financial disaster - you must be joking!

[ioan]

You think oil is never going to run out?

One day for sure, but not in the next 10 years. And I doubt Oil Co's do have a plan for more than 5 years from now on.



A technical challenge that swallows money to satisfy the men with big foreheads in the middle of a serious global financial disaster - you must be joking!

Making it cheap is also a challenge for the engineers. Every prototype is expensive and in F1 almost everything is a prototype.

If we stop research because it's expensive we might as well go live in a cave again.

[SGWilko]

One day for sure, but not in the next 10 years. And I doubt Oil Co's do have a plan for more than 5 years from now on.



Making it cheap is also a challenge for the engineers. Every prototype is expensive and in F1 almost everything is a prototype.

If we stop research because it's expensive we might as well go live in a cave again.

There is research, and there is the regulational directives set by Max that bear no relation to anything useful. What is needed are batteries that produce high amps for prolongued periods and that do not degrade in a short space of time. By deeming that the KERS system can only be used for a few seconds per lap, means high capacity batteries that do not hold charge for very long. It borders on moronic.

Don't knock the idea of living in a cave, that notion may well be a reality in a few hundred years time......

[ioan]

There is research, and there is the regulational directives set by Max that bear no relation to anything useful. What is needed are batteries that produce high amps for prolongued periods and that do not degrade in a short space of time. By deeming that the KERS system can only be used for a few seconds per lap, means high capacity batteries that do not hold charge for very long. It borders on moronic.

There is a start for everything, I can see that the FIA will require the KERS system to function for more than a few seconds per lap in the future.

You will aslo have to understand that it will be impossible for it to run continuously at a high rate cause the cars do not generate as much energy under barking as it is needed to keep them moving.

Also there are yet no such batteries like those you describe (small and high capacity ones that hold charge for very long, also f1 teams are not chemical companies that develop new materials for use in batteries, they use what they can find on market.

Not to mention safety implications that need to be addressed before pushing the boundaries even further.



Don't knock the idea of living in a cave, that notion may well be a reality in a few hundred years time......

That will be probably my grand-grandsons problem, not mine cause I would still put together some would to make a healthy shelter as long as there are woods.

[SGWilko]

also f1 teams are not chemical companies that develop new materials for use in batteries, they use what they can find on market.



Introduction of KERS has forced them into this role....

[ioan]

Introduction of KERS has forced them into this role....

Well, those who went as far as setting up a lab to produce the chemicals for their own batteries for sure are going the wrong way.
These days it's enough to start a cooperation with a company that is doing research in the domain and voila you can share the costs.

[ShiftingGears]

Would you take the risk?

If they got it sorted, I don't see why not.

[Garry Walker]

As for the remaining test days, well Ferrari will have plenty of them at disposal given that they will be the first ones to launch their new contender.
And the move to team up with Peugeot is a genius stroke that will certainly have a positive outcome no matter how advanced or not the KERS system is.

There is no partnership with Peugeot.

Ferrari is still behind with KERS. BMW is supposedly the best placed with the system.

Ferrari is still behind with KERS. BMW is supposedly the best placed with the system.

Ferrari have said that they are behind schedule....but that doesn't mean they are behind the other teams necessarily.

They might be....but who knows what their schedule was?

[ShiftingGears]

Ferrari have said that they are behind schedule....but that doesn't mean they are behind the other teams necessarily.

They might be....but who knows what their schedule was?

Exactly. It's all smoke and mirrors until qualifying starts at Albert Park.

[Garry Walker]

Ferrari have said that they are behind schedule....but that doesn't mean they are behind the other teams necessarily.

They might be....but who knows what their schedule was?

I am just saying what I have heard.
Ferrari and Renault, out of the big teams, are supposedly in the biggest worries with KERS. McLaren has it a bit better and BMW is the clear leader.
But there is 3 months to go, so I am not too worried for ferrari..yet.