Israel took a dump on Gaza again....

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5402643.ece

:eek:

I didn't think Israel would be so ambitious.

[Roamy]

my understanding is that Hamas started it - Therefore you must accept the retaliation!

[SOD]

my understanding is that Hamas started it - Therefore you must accept the retaliation!

eh no, the gazans were being starved and denied clean water, then israel sent in (bravely I may add) the American built apaches to kill them breaking any ceasefire agreement. Check it out it happened on Nov 6th 2008.

Women and children killed today. I hope the zionists are happy.

btw the Palestinians were promised a SHOAH by israel earlier in 2008. The govt minister did not lie, we saw his lips move. the zionists are now making good on their promise.

If its about protecting Israeli citizens, they lost one because of the retaliation. South Israel is the scum end of israel, they (israel) dont really care about the folks who live in that area. not my opinion, just ask any Israeli about that part of the world :laugh:

[Easy Drifter]

Yep, no question Israel started it all by just existing.
Of course, the hundreds of mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza were just expressions of love by Hasmas for the Israelis.
You can only provoke Israel so long before the brown stuff hits the fan.
I do not think Israel is totally blameless but they were not the ones firing rockets and mortar shells during a ceasefire.
Er, why does Eygpt normally have her border sealed to Gaza? After all it is an Arabic country. Why does Gaza and the Hamas have to rely on water and supplies from Israel? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Time for Eki to come in with his usual anti democracy BS.

[SOD]

care to tell us what the first action a democratically elected government in Egypt will do?

why did the Gazans break out on the Egyptian border back in March if Egypt cant send them supplies?

Think about it

[Roamy]

this is not rocket science - as I have said all along - you can relocate israel or this will continue to escalate until all hell breaks lose. I still think Israel will attack Iran before Bush leaves office.

[Easy Drifter]

Nice dodging the question Sod. Your replies are a typical politicians' act of refusing to reply directly but throwing up irrelevant questions when you have no sensible response. Just like your response to Fuosto in another thread.
Here's one for you. Why can't Eygpt help them? Logistics?
Or they really want no part of Hamas?
Not only that you totally ignored the first part of my post.
Do you support the Somali pirates?
Do you support the Taliban?
Will you answer the questions or will you duck and dodge like a two bit politician?
Let the rest of us see your political stripes.

[SOD]

^ I just stumped ya! you're the one who brought up Egypt. Change the subject why don't ya.

[OWFan19]

this is not rocket science - as I have said all along - you can relocate israel or this will continue to escalate until all hell breaks lose. I still think Israel will attack Iran before Bush leaves office.
I agree that they will attack Iran. They have left Gaza in horrible conditions. Israel needs to chill out on the crap they do.

[Easy Drifter]

Sod: I saw no point in responding to your obviously silly questions.
Naturally I have no idea what the Govt. of Eygpt will do. If you do please enlighten us. Of course, if you do know you must be a member of the Eygptian Govt. Are you?
I do not really understand your second question. Perhaps you can explain it and answer it at the same time.
Now let us see some straight answers with no ducking and dodging and going off at tangents.
So far you have avoided answering any direct questions.

[SOD]

Sod: I saw no point in responding to your obviously silly questions.
Naturally I have no idea what the Govt. of Eygpt will do. If you do please enlighten us. Of course, if you do know you must be a member of the Eygptian Govt. Are you?
I do not really understand your second question. Perhaps you can explain it and answer it at the same time.
Now let us see some straight answers with no ducking and dodging and going off at tangents.
So far you have avoided answering any direct questions.

thanks for admitting that you dont know.

[Roamy]

let it glow let it glow let it glow

[Eki]

Yep, no question Israel started it all by just existing.
Of course, the hundreds of mortar and rocket attacks from Gaza were just expressions of love by Hasmas for the Israelis.
You can only provoke Israel so long before the brown stuff hits the fan.
I do not think Israel is totally blameless but they were not the ones firing rockets and mortar shells during a ceasefire.
Er, why does Eygpt normally have her border sealed to Gaza? After all it is an Arabic country. Why does Gaza and the Hamas have to rely on water and supplies from Israel? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Time for Eki to come in with his usual anti democracy BS.
Anti-democracy? Hamas was democratically elected. Surrenderring to Israel would be anti-democratic and betraying their voters. I guess your definition of democracy is different than mine, because I don't consider very democratic forcing other people across the globe at gun point to become "democratic". I call it dictating and making the rules as you go, the US does a lot of dictating in the world and the Israeli does a lot of dictating in the Middle East.

[yodasarmpit]

I have very little sympathy for either Israel or Hamas, as both have been antagonising each other constantly.
Israel building more in the occupied territories, and Hamas firing rockets into Israel.
Who I do feel sympathy for are the poor innocent civilians, as always they are the one's who suffer.

This is not going to be resolved overnight as neither side are willing to back down, Hamas could help their cause by a cessation of rocket launches and Israel by opening up trade links and moving out of the occupied territories but that won't happen.

The fact that the US and to a lesser extent the UK have not condemned Israel's over reaction, will be seen as a green light for Israel to continue their bombardment of Gazza killing anyone in the vicinity.

Just how long will Israel be able to play the victim card, it's a bit worn out now.

[Rani]

I have very little sympathy for either Israel or Hamas, as both have been antagonising each other constantly.
Israel building more in the occupied territories, and Hamas firing rockets into Israel.
Who I do feel sympathy for are the poor innocent civilians, as always they are the one's who suffer.

This is not going to be resolved overnight as neither side are willing to back down, Hamas could help their cause by a cessation of rocket launches and Israel by opening up trade links and moving out of the occupied territories but that won't happen.

The fact that the US and to a lesser extent the UK have not condemned Israel's over reaction, will be seen as a green light for Israel to continue their bombardment of Gazza killing anyone in the vicinity.

Just how long will Israel be able to play the victim card, it's a bit worn out now.
You do realise that all the settlements in Gaza were deserted in 2005..?
This action came down on the Hamas (who I remind you, does not accept Israel's right to exist) because we can't accept 60 rockets a day on civilian targets. The Hamas just needs to know that there is a price for firing into Israel. Had they not fired 60 rockets a day, this action wouldn't have begun.
As for the Egyptians, they want Gaza much less than you think, Sean. They have declined responsibility time and time again because they don't want a radical terrorist movement such as Hamas under their wing.
BTW I an now studying in Ben Gurion U, so from now on you can refer to me as zionist scum living in the scum end of Israel.
Anyhoo, did anyone catch the footage of candy being thrown in celebration over here?
Oh, right, the vicious zionists here don't take to the streets and celebrate every time enemy blood is shed.

[SOD]

You do realise that all the settlements in Gaza were deserted in 2005..?
This action came down on the Hamas (who I remind you, does not accept Israel's right to exist) because we can't accept 60 rockets a day on civilian targets. The Hamas just needs to know that there is a price for firing into Israel. Had they not fired 60 rockets a day, this action wouldn't have begun.
As for the Egyptians, they want Gaza much less than you think, Sean. They have declined responsibility time and time again because they don't want a radical terrorist movement such as Hamas under their wing.
BTW I an now studying in Ben Gurion U, so from now on you can refer to me as zionist scum living in the scum end of Israel.
Anyhoo, did anyone catch the footage of candy being thrown in celebration over here?
Oh, right, the vicious zionists here don't take to the streets and celebrate every time enemy blood is shed.

apologist for mass murder. the 'mass murder' going on in gaza is widely popular in Israel. Perpetrated on behalf of the israelis by the brave F16s and unmanned air vehicles.

btw, that's what your fellow countrymen and countrywomen, not me, refer to the 'south' of Israel.



Ehud Barack tried this bombing last year (and on many occasions over the past 15 years), it didnt stop the rockets. The Ehud barack doctrine, try the same thing over and over hoping you get a different result.

has the mass murder made israel any safer tonight? The israeli govt was talking about protecting its citizens at the same time an israeli was killed in retaliation.

May you go in peace Rani.

[Daniel]

apologist for mass murder. the 'mass murder' going on in gaza is widely popular in Israel. Perpetrated on behalf of the israelis by the brave F16s and unmanned air vehicles.

btw, that's what your fellow countrymen and countrywomen, not me, refer to the 'south' of Israel.



Ehud Barack tried this bombing last year (and on many occasions over the past 15 years), it didnt stop the rockets. The Ehud barack doctrine, try the same thing over and over hoping you get a different result.

has the mass murder made israel any safer tonight? The israeli govt was talking about protecting its citizens at the same time an israeli was killed in retaliation.

May you go in peace Rani.

For a nation with some quite intelligent people (I mean that seriously btw!) Israel does dumb things. At the end of the day all the Palestinians want to do is live their lives in peace and not be killed and not kill anyone. Sure a lot of hateful people talk big and talk of removing Israel from the map. But down down people don't give a **** as long as they have a roof over their heads, food, healthcare and so on. When they have all that they won't care that Israel is there, they simply won't care at all and life will go on. If you leave them alone and allow food, aid and medical supplies in then the people will see that you're trying to help and the millitants will be marginalised and support for them will turn into hatred for them.

[Eki]

For a nation with some quite intelligent people (I mean that seriously btw!) Israel does dumb things. At the end of the day all the Palestinians want to do is live their lives in peace and not be killed and not kill anyone. Sure a lot of hateful people talk big and talk of removing Israel from the map. But down down people don't give a **** as long as they have a roof over their heads, food, healthcare and so on. When they have all that they won't care that Israel is there, they simply won't care at all and life will go on. If you leave them alone and allow food, aid and medical supplies in then the people will see that you're trying to help and the millitants will be marginalised and support for them will turn into hatred for them.
I think that sort of happened in Northern Ireland. The British didn't send all their air force and tank brigades after every IRA attack.

[Daniel]

I think that sort of happened in Northern Ireland. The British didn't send all their air force and tank brigades after every IRA attack.

Exactly. And now the Northern Irish still dislike the British a bit but they hate the IRA even more.

[SOD]

Daniel,

israel goes for the big stupid. They can have peace if they want it. They dont seem to want to.

[Daniel]

Daniel,

israel goes for the big stupid. They can have peace if they want it. They dont seem to want to.

Well the arms industry probably has a lot to do with it :) Well at least some people are getting rich. Some consolation eh?

[BDunnell]

The thing about people not wanting peace is all too true. Why else did people in Northern Ireland go on voting for extremist parties for so many years? That example also proves that negotiation is the best way out, as glib as it may seem to say so. Those on both sides who advocate war as the solution are nothing more than extremists — or, at least, they should be classed as such, by our standards.

[Tomi]

That example also proves that negotiation is the best way out, as glib as it may seem to say so. Those on both sides who advocate war as the solution are nothing more than extremists — or, at least, they should be classed as such, by our standards.

In negotiations you need a "fair broker" that lead the negotiations, sofar that has not happend in Israel/Palestine conflict.
There has been some rumours that Tony Blair might take over, for me its difficult to see him as very fair either, so the conflict will go on.

[Mark in Oshawa]

For a nation with some quite intelligent people (I mean that seriously btw!) Israel does dumb things. At the end of the day all the Palestinians want to do is live their lives in peace and not be killed and not kill anyone..

Really? Why would they then turn around and elect Hamas who have basically said they have no interest in negotiating with Israel and want it GONE.




Sure a lot of hateful people talk big and talk of removing Israel from the map. But down down people don't give a **** as long as they have a roof over their heads, food, healthcare and so on..

They have been offered this a few times. Remember Oslo? Arafat was offered 90% of what he wanted for peace and in the end, he squandered the opportunity and Hamas moved into the power vacuum. I have no problem believing the man on the street in Gaza and the West Bank may want peace but he wants that peace with a lot of Dead Jews and Israel gone if you ask me. To suggest otherwise to ignore the celebratory attitude any time any Israeli casualties announced.



When they have all that they won't care that Israel is there, they simply won't care at all and life will go on. If you leave them alone and allow food, aid and medical supplies in then the people will see that you're trying to help and the millitants will be marginalised and support for them will turn into hatred for them.

They do care and they have been told to care by other Arab nations who have screwed the Palestinians at every opportunity. Egypt could help Gaza with water and humantarian supplies and make Israel look REALLY bad if you buy into the argument that this is mean ole Israel making live miserable for the sake of their own arrogance but Egypt wants nothing to do with Hamas and the Gaza problem. Never has....yet they went to war 3 times to supposively recapture this area for the Arab world.

Lets face a few hard truths.

One, Israel isn't shy about making other's know where the line in the sand is drawn. They have done this probably in a heavy handed fashion.

Two, Hamas has no interest in keeping Israel as a friend because it will defeat their whole purpose politically. They have no real political plan other than a war with Israel.

If they really cared about the poor schmuck in Gaza, they would cease fire, get things improving infrastructure and business wise in the strip and find a way to have Egypt be that conduit of goods and water that the Israeli's wont give them. Of course...that would be helping the Palestinians at the expense of fighting the Israeli's and of course, as I have pointed out they have never stopped their war with Israel on one level or another and why would they stop now?

They are not even smart about this for they have been doing this for years and barely making the Israeli nation do much more than just keep them aside. They have no hope of winning for if they actually WON against Israel they wouldn't have a purpose.

Hating Israel is too easy an excuse for your own incompetance. The fact many on here and a few dopey journalists keep attacking Israel ignores the basic fact no nation will stand for being attacked in this fashion without fighting back. Whatever one might think of the elected and only true democratic state in the Middle East, the leaders there know they have no political legitmacy if they allow their citizens to endure rocket attacks from Hamas and not do SOMETHING. Now we can argue if the response is heavy handed, but the last time I looked, no one won a peace thru war without actually applying force, and in military terms, there is no point in showing your enemy a weakness with a war to win.

[Roamy]

hey i thought israel was building a fence
what happened to that ??

[Easy Drifter]

Right on Mark.
Please stand by for far left wing irrelevant responses from Eki and especially Sod (IT).

[Valve Bounce]

I don't even want to buy into the arguments proferred by several protaganists here so far.

What intrigues me is what the motive was for firing rockets into Israel. They were mostly ineffective, and counter productive in the deadly return fire from Israel; but in the end spurred Israel to a massive response. I have no doubt that with satellite surveyance and other intelligence, Israel was able to identify where the rockets were stored, and where the guys who were firing them came from. They also found out where the rockets were stored, as well as the tunnels beneath the border with Egypt that were being used to smuggle them in. Now these are being destroyed.

Basically, Hamas provoked a terrifying response of biblical magnitude, and I just cannot figure out why. Was it so that the Arab World would contribute even more enormous sums of money to those remaining?

Maybe somebody can tell me why.

[Garry Walker]

Right on Mark.
Please stand by for far left wing irrelevant responses from Eki and especially Sod (IT).

Indeed.

[Daniel]

I'm not going to have a proper reasoned discussion because I find it much easier to brand all of you right wing gun toting nutjobs instead. Anyone who speaks out in opposition of me is a right wing loony!

Since when did branding the other side left wing or right wing constitute an argument?

[Daniel]

Basically, Hamas provoked a terrifying response of biblical magnitude, and I just cannot figure out why. Was it so that the Arab World would contribute even more enormous sums of money to those remaining?

Maybe somebody can tell me why.

The people are work here are extremists. They need not use logic when making decisions.

[Valve Bounce]

The people are work here are extremists. They need not use logic when making decisions.

Famous Chinese saying: Dog walking up a narrow nullah knows a path.

[jim mcglinchey]

The thing about people not wanting peace is all too true. Why else did people in Northern Ireland go on voting for extremist parties for so many years? That example also proves that negotiation is the best way out, as glib as it may seem to say so. Those on both sides who advocate war as the solution are nothing more than extremists — or, at least, they should be classed as such, by our standards.

You make exactly this same point every few months on this forum Mr Dunnell.People didnt vote for the Sinn Fein or the DUP to stir things up, it was to get their political objectives purely on their terms, thats what most people are like. These extremists parties were gradually brought in to the centre and the moderates like the SDLP and the UUP who had preached sense all along were then squeezed out.

Re Gaza I think Israel has lost any moral highground that they ever had, which is especially tragic considering Auschwitz, Belsen etc.

[BDunnell]

You make exactly this same point every few months on this forum Mr Dunnell.

Because I feel it is relevant.


People didnt vote for the Sinn Fein or the DUP to stir things up, it was to get their political objectives purely on their terms, thats what most people are like.

I agree, but they did so in the full knowledge that these were extremist parties. This cannot be separated from the choices that people made. Of course, I do not deny their right to do so.

[Rani]

hey i thought israel was building a fence
what happened to that ??
Unfortunately, fences don't stop rockets.






israel goes for the big stupid. They can have peace if they want it. They dont seem to want to.


For us to have peace with Hamas would mean us packing up and leaving. Would you pack up?
BTW Sean I hope you go in peace, 70 virgins and so on too, brother.
Ps saying the man who was killed in scum land was killed because of the retaliation is pure and utter BS. Had someone been killed a few days earlier due to the 60 rockets a day that were fired would that have been because of the retaliation too? Please.
Hamas is now getting what they had coming to them, I do feel sorry for the civilian casualties (thankfully relatively limited so far), though.

[yodasarmpit]

Hamas is now getting what they had coming to them, I do feel sorry for the civilian casualties (thankfully relatively limited so far), though.To say I'm not a fan of Hamas is putting it lightly, but although Hamas are taking a battering it's the many civilians that really suffer.

Arthur James Balfour has a lot to answer for.

[Eki]

Unfortunately, fences don't stop rockets
I've read that the range of the Qassam rockets is only 12 km. You could move everybody 13 km away from the fence, then you wouldn't have to worry about them. Then you could only kill those who enter that safety zone between you and the fence.

[Daniel]

Unfortunately, fences don't stop rockets.

Surprise of the ****en year...... they only serve to piss off and alienate the people who they fence in and make them want to shoot rockets at you.

[Eki]

Surprise of the ****en year...... they only serve to piss off and alienate the people who they fence in and make them want to shoot rockets at you.

True. Just like the "fence" around the Warzaw ghetto didn't stop people from trying an uprise.

[Roamy]

well apparently Israel has had enough sh!t from Hamas and are going to crank it up. Good for Israel and after Hamas maybe they will go straight away to Iran. May as well take care of business while you still can. AS far civilians go Hamas doesn't give a sh!t how many they kill so this is what war is. It all started the Islams so it may as well end with them. Blowing up innocent people all over the world - Fuch these guys - get a gun and get after it!!

[Tomi]

True. Just like the "fence" around the Warzaw ghetto didn't stop people from trying an uprise.

good example, but the cow seem to have forgot how it was when it was a calf.

[Roamy]

I believe EKI said it was Israel who broke this cease fire. Where are the facts.
I am hearing all over that it was Hamas you would not renew and broke the cease fire. So which is it???

[Eki]

AS far civilians go Hamas doesn't give a sh!t how many they kill so this is what war is.
So, how many civilians have they killed recently?

[BDunnell]

For us to have peace with Hamas would mean us packing up and leaving.

I find that an immensely sad statement. Of course a peace should be reached. This is not some pointless utopian statement — it can be done and should be done. I refuse to believe otherwise, as I refuse to believe that there is anything 'special' about the conflict over Gaza when compared to other such conflicts that have eventually— painfully, even — been solved.

[Roamy]

So, how many civilians have they killed recently?

quit being ignorant EKI - you you think the rockets Hamas sent over were for independence day!!

[Daniel]

I find that an immensely sad statement. Of course a peace should be reached. This is not some pointless utopian statement — it can be done and should be done. I refuse to believe otherwise, as I refuse to believe that there is anything 'special' about the conflict over Gaza when compared to other such conflicts that have eventually— painfully, even — been solved.

True.

It's sad to see people on both sides brainwashed by people who want war and profit from it. I still maintain that if the shooting ended on both sides tomorrow, the blockade ended and Israel stopped stifling the Palestinians that both sides could peacefully co-exist.

[Eki]

quit being ignorant EKI - you you think the rockets Hamas sent over were for independence day!!
Just quote a news that says Hamas killed a civilian recently, I don't believe you before you do.

[Roamy]

I find that an immensely sad statement. Of course a peace should be reached. This is not some pointless utopian statement — it can be done and should be done. I refuse to believe otherwise, as I refuse to believe that there is anything 'special' about the conflict over Gaza when compared to other such conflicts that have eventually— painfully, even — been solved.

Well I think this one is on Hamas. And I think future ones will be on the Islams. The world is tired of the sh!t and I think in the next 5 yrs you will see much retaliation and death. The Islams are making the call. They could have all just sat around Afghanistan got loaded on heroin and enjoyed life. But oh no give me some hellfire rockets to excite my heroin addiction!! Saddam could have taken his family and 30 billion to Syria or elsewhere just by allowing Nuke investigators to come in. Hamas could have knocked there sh!t off and started building a resort industry on the sea but NO - lets fuch with Israel - who wants to frolick by the sea and make money!!

[Daniel]

Well I think this one is on Hamas. And I think future ones will be on the Islams. The world is tired of the sh!t and I think in the next 5 yrs you will see much retaliation and death. The Islams are making the call. They could have all just sat around Afghanistan got loaded on heroin and enjoyed life. But oh no give me some hellfire rockets to excite my heroin addiction!! Saddam could have taken his family and 30 billion to Syria or elsewhere just by allowing Nuke investigators to come in. Hamas could have knocked there sh!t off and started building a resort industry on the sea but NO - lets fuch with Israel - who wants to frolick by the sea and make money!!

You make a good point, seriously. But for every point you make there is a counterpoint.
Afghanistan - Funnily enough these guys don't like a foreign army being in their country.
Iraq - He was telling the truth. They didn't have WMD's
Palestine - Takes one to know one

Lets not beat around the bush. In each of these examples there are two sides being a bunch of retards and fighting. The guy who lives over the road from us is a fat tosser and do I go over there and fight him? No, I leave him to be an idiot and go about my own business the way I want to.

[Roamy]

True.

It's sad to see people on both sides brainwashed by people who want war and profit from it. I still maintain that if the shooting ended on both sides tomorrow, the blockade ended and Israel stopped stifling the Palestinians that both sides could peacefully co-exist.
Look at this Daniel - the Pals have ocean access to there should be 0 reliance on Israel for anything. Israel is not stifling anyone and it is not their responsibility to help the Pals at all. So quit pointing fingers at Israel. If they left alone they would live in peace but apparently they would like to reduce the population and buildings before getting a grip.

[Daniel]

Look at this Daniel - the Pals have ocean access to there should be 0 reliance on Israel for anything. Israel is not stifling anyone and it is not their responsibility to help the Pals at all. So quit pointing fingers at Israel. If they left alone they would live in peace but apparently they would like to reduce the population and buildings before getting a grip.

Do they have ocean access? A quick googling of Gaza strip sea blockade suggests that's a big fat NO.

[BDunnell]

True.

It's sad to see people on both sides brainwashed by people who want war and profit from it. I still maintain that if the shooting ended on both sides tomorrow, the blockade ended and Israel stopped stifling the Palestinians that both sides could peacefully co-exist.

But would Israel be any less absurdly paranoid in relation to criticism?

[Daniel]

But would Israel be any less absurdly paranoid in relation to criticism?

Listen dude... lay off them alright? Don't you remember what the ancestors and relatives of these guys went through in Europe during WW2?

Not an attack on you of course but more what I expect was used as an argument in countless UN sessions in the past as justification for doing what others surely wouldn't be allowed to do....

[Roamy]

Do they have ocean access? A quick googling of Gaza strip sea blockade suggests that's a big fat NO.

Ok I'll bite - what am I missing?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

[Daniel]

Ok I'll bite - what am I missing?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

Seemingly the ability to follow simple instructions and find the damn answer for yourself :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

I am sorry you are having so much trouble with the map - but over the coming years it will clear up for you

[Valve Bounce]

Just quote a news that says Hamas killed a civilian recently, I don't believe you before you do.

I really don't want to join this silly debate about who did what to whom, but Hamas just killed a civilian in Ashkelon. To make matters worse, he was an Arab. As for the range of the rockets being fired, they can reach Ashdod. So before you shoot the shyte, do the maths.

Basically, this is a war between Israel and Hamas. Good to see that the are using bunker busters to destroy over 40 tunnels between Egypt and Gaza.

If you awnt more information, just google the many newspapers and TV News around the world. Al Jazeera might be your best bet. But, just for the uninformed in this ongoing discussion, here is the latest info: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122994140674153.html

[Daniel]

I am sorry you are having so much trouble with the map - but over the coming years it will clear up for you

I'm sorry you don't understand what a sea blockade is too :)

[Roamy]

I talked to my buddy Benjamin Netanyahu and he told me you could build a resort!

[Eki]

I really don't want to join this silly debate about who did what to whom, but Hamas just killed a civilian in Ashkelon. To make matters worse, he was an Arab. As for the range of the rockets being fired, they can reach Ashdod. So before you shoot the shyte, do the maths.

Basically, this is a war between Israel and Hamas. Good to see that the are using bunker busters to destroy over 40 tunnels between Egypt and Gaza.

If you awnt more information, just google the many newspapers and TV News around the world. Al Jazeera might be your best bet. But, just for the uninformed in this ongoing discussion, here is the latest info: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122994140674153.html

OK, so Hamas killed one and Israel killed over 300. Hamas should now kill 300 more to get even. There's your math.

[Rani]

Surprise of the ****en year...... they only serve to piss off and alienate the people who they fence in and make them want to shoot rockets at you.
They also help keep suicide bombers from coming over. The only reason the fence was built was because a few years ago a suicide attack was an everyday occurance.
Ignorance and selective memory truly are bliss.




Originally Posted by Eki http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=569032#post569032)

True. Just like the "fence" around the Warzaw ghetto didn't stop people from trying an uprise.


good example, but the cow seem to have forgot how it was when it was a calf.

Demagoguery at its best. When have you finns been under a daily barrage of rockets for 8 years lately that you have the ability to judge this action DIRECTED AGAINST A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION?



Originally Posted by Rani http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=569016#post569016)
Unfortunately, fences don't stop rockets

I've read that the range of the Qassam rockets is only 12 km. You could move everybody 13 km away from the fence, then you wouldn't have to worry about them. Then you could only kill those who enter that safety zone between you and the fence.

Thanks to your hero prince Mahmoud of Persia they now also have iranian and chinese Grad rockets and all sorts of other GG rockets.
Your Marrie Antoinette-esque comments do amuse, though.



Originally Posted by Rani http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=569016#post569016)
For us to have peace with Hamas would mean us packing up and leaving.

I find that an immensely sad statement. Of course a peace should be reached. This is not some pointless utopian statement — it can be done and should be done. I refuse to believe otherwise, as I refuse to believe that there is anything 'special' about the conflict over Gaza when compared to other such conflicts that have eventually— painfully, even — been solved
.
Of course it can be done. Hell we enjoy the fruits of peace with Jordan and Egypt everyday, and I bet they do too. Hamas is different. If they acknowledge Israel they have no right of existence. They're whole ethos is based on Islamic fundamentalism and Jihad against Israel. Had they been willing to negotiate I believe something could have been worked out, but they are not willing to compromise.

[BDunnell]

Of course it can be done. Hell we enjoy the fruits of peace with Jordan and Egypt everyday, and I bet they do too. Hamas is different. If they acknowledge Israel they have no right of existence. They're whole ethos is based on Islamic fundamentalism and Jihad against Israel. Had they been willing to negotiate I believe something could have been worked out, but they are not willing to compromise.

I think that a big part of this has to be the recognition, as painful as it may be, that Hamas does represent a certain element of public thinking and that it enjoys a certain degree of support. An accommodation has to be reached with that in mind. It cannot simply be bombed out of existence — Hamas isn't about to go away. I cannot think of a single example of this tactic working. It clearly isn't with al-Qaeda, for example. Israel, for all its military successes over the years, won't make it work either.

[Rani]

I think that a big part of this has to be the recognition, as painful as it may be, that Hamas does represent a certain element of public thinking and that it enjoys a certain degree of support. An accommodation has to be reached with that in mind. It cannot simply be bombed out of existence — Hamas isn't about to go away. I cannot think of a single example of this tactic working. It clearly isn't with al-Qaeda, for example. Israel, for all its military successes over the years, won't make it work either.
No one is trying to bomb it out of existance, it seems as if Hamas is here to stay and we have to live with it. None of the goals of this operation is to topple Hamas. It is also acknowledged that Hamas controls Gaza and has support over there.
All you said is pretty much a given over here.
This is also precisely the reason why a palestinian state won't be born anytime soon. Not because Israel doesn't want it, but because there are now two palestinian entities: Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the west bank.

[Roamy]

Hamas has rained down 6000 rockets on Israel over the last 3 yrs. I think Hamas will be eliminated in the pal countries. I don't think this offensive is pitty pat. I also don't expect to much from Bush the standard "Don't do it" I think Iran is on the radar as soon as it is proven that Iran is supporting Hamas bye bye for those ers too. Maybe the young people can get a hold of Iran before this whole region blows up; Benjamin put it quite clear when he said how would you like 6000 rockets raining down on your home town.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Surprise of the ****en year...... they only serve to piss off and alienate the people who they fence in and make them want to shoot rockets at you.

That fence was to stop Hamas conning stupid young kids that they would get 72 Virgins if they strapped bombs to their chest. Last time I looked Israel didn't tell their kids to kill themselves in Suicide attacks. That is the moral low point of any civilized behaviour. Israel put up the fence and now they get rocket attacks....

Oh Eki, maybe the Israeli's are not interested in giving up that 12 km space because they know Iran will give more powerful rockets to Hamas. Israel isn't big enough to give up a 12km buffer zone. Last time I looked civilized nations didn't spend their spare time lobbing rockets over the fence at their neighbours and then claim some sort of moral high ground.

I am not some Right wing prat Daniel.....I am just looking around at the utter hypocracy of most of the crap spilled about this and I am thinking very logically. You attack a country like Hamas does and duuuuh they are going to fire back.

[Camelopard]

Look at this Daniel - the Pals have ocean access to there should be 0 reliance on Israel for anything. Israel is not stifling anyone and it is not their responsibility to help the Pals at all. So quit pointing fingers at Israel. If they left alone they would live in peace but apparently they would like to reduce the population and buildings before getting a grip.

So The palestinians have access to the sea do they? Maybe you should open your eyes and read this:

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/World/Story/STIStory_320077.html

[Camelopard]

No one is trying to bomb it out of existance, it seems as if Hamas is here to stay and we have to live with it. None of the goals of this operation is to topple Hamas. It is also acknowledged that Hamas controls Gaza and has support over there.
All you said is pretty much a given

So israel doesn't want to bomb the palestinians out of existence, you must be kidding!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/30/2456309.htm?section=justin

Maybe you should read this one then:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/30/2456334.htm?section=justin

[Camelopard]

I am not some Right wing prat Daniel.....I am just looking around at the utter hypocracy of most of the crap spilled about this and I am thinking very logically. You attack a country like Hamas does and duuuuh they are going to fire back.

Thinking very logically about this from only one side of the story, have you ever wondered why the Palestinians do this? Perhaps if you didn't lump all Muslims together and looked at it from a non us verses muslims for a change.

Say you were living very happily in a place called Palestine.. Along comes some foreign powers and decided that the jews need a place to call their own because of all the bad things that had been done to them. So they were given your land, land that had been in your family for generations, now you get kicked out of your house, forced off your land and have to live in a squalid refugee camp, wouldn't you be bitter? I know I certainly would.
I'll be patronising here and say please take the time to read news reports from the Palestinian point of view.

here some starters for you.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11698

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bitter-harvest-peace-hopes-wither-in-orchards-of-violence/2008/10/24/1224351544130.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/08/AR2007040800924.html

"BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- Hani Hayek, an accountant who is the Christian mayor of the tiny majority-Christian Palestinian village of Beit Sahour, was angry last week as he drove me along the Israeli security wall. "They are taking our communal lands," he said, pointing to the massive Israeli settlement of Har Homa. "They don't want us to live here. They want us to leave."

[Daniel]

Thinking very logically about this from only one side of the story, have you ever wondered why the Palestinians do this? Perhaps if you didn't lump all Muslims together and looked at it from a non us verses muslims for a change.

Say you were living very happily in a place called Palestine.. Along comes some foreign powers and decided that the jews need a place to call their own because of all the bad things that had been done to them. So they were given your land, land that had been in your family for generations, now you get kicked out of your house, forced off your land and have to live in a squalid refugee camp, wouldn't you be bitter? I know I certainly would.
I'll be patronising here and say please take the time to read news reports from the Palestinian point of view.

here some starters for you.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11698

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bitter-harvest-peace-hopes-wither-in-orchards-of-violence/2008/10/24/1224351544130.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/08/AR2007040800924.html

"BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- Hani Hayek, an accountant who is the Christian mayor of the tiny majority-Christian Palestinian village of Beit Sahour, was angry last week as he drove me along the Israeli security wall. "They are taking our communal lands," he said, pointing to the massive Israeli settlement of Har Homa. "They don't want us to live here. They want us to leave."

Don't bother with him, he's just a rightie hatemonger.

[Camelopard]

http://jewishpeacenews.blogspot.com/


PRESS RELEASE

STATEMENT BY PROF. RICHARD FALK,
UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

The Israeli airstrikes on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.
Those violations include:
Collective punishment – the entire 1.5 million people who live in the crowded Gaza Strip are being punished for the actions of a few militants.
Targeting civilians – the airstrikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.
Disproportionate military response – the airstrikes have not only destroyed every police and security office of Gaza's elected government, but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians; at least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from the university.
Earlier Israeli actions, specifically the complete sealing off of entry and exit to and from the Gaza Strip, have led to severe shortages of medicine and fuel (as well as food), resulting in the inability of ambulances to respond to the injured, the inability of hospitals to adequately provide medicine or necessary equipment for the injured, and the inability of Gaza's besieged doctors and other medical workers to sufficiently treat the victims.
Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response. I note that Israel's escalating military assaults have not made Israeli civilians safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed today after the upsurge of Israeli violence is the first in over a year.

Israel has also ignored recent Hamas' diplomatic initiatives to reestablish the truce or ceasefire since its expiration on 26 December.
The Israeli airstrikes today, and the catastrophic human toll that they caused, challenge those countries that have been and remain complicit, either directly or indirectly, in Israel's violations of international law. That complicity includes those countries knowingly providing the military equipment including warplanes and missiles used in these illegal attacks, as well as those countries who have supported and participated in the siege of Gaza that itself has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.
I remind all member states of the United Nations that the UN continues to be bound to an independent obligation to protect any civilian population facing massive violations of international humanitarian law – regardless of what country may be responsible for those violations. I call on all Member States, as well as officials and every relevant organ of the United Nations system, to move on an emergency basis not only to condemn Israel's serious violations, but to develop new approaches to providing real protection for the Palestinian people.
-----------------------

[Captain VXR]

No one is trying to bomb it out of existance, it seems as if Hamas is here to stay and we have to live with it. None of the goals of this operation is to topple Hamas. It is also acknowledged that Hamas controls Gaza and has support over there.
All you said is pretty much a given over here.
This is also precisely the reason why a palestinian state won't be born anytime soon. Not because Israel doesn't want it, but because there are now two palestinian entities: Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the west bank.
Read camelopard's links then. I'll give you a quote for starters:

Among the casualties were five girls from the same family who were killed in their beds by Israeli missiles aimed at a nearby mosque.

Their distraught father Anwar Baloosha said he could not understand why they died.

"What crime have my girls committed?" he asked. "I want to understand. If we were making rockets we could have said fine, no problem. But we weren't. My daughters were asleep."

[jim mcglinchey]

So The palestinians have access to the sea do they? Maybe you should open your eyes and read this:

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/World/Story/STIStory_320077.html

With you on this Camel, its reassuring to see people in first world, western countries with a bit of empathy for the suffering of the Palestinians.

[Daniel]

With you on this Camel, its reassuring to see people in first world, western countries with a bit of empathy for the suffering of the Palestinians.

:up: I just don't get why people seem to tar the whole arab world with the same brush they use on the people who get involved with Al Qaeda......

[Roamy]

the pals voted hamas in
hamas fires rockets into israel
shut up and eat your return rockets

Oh and just where is the UN about the hacking death of 100 innocent people in africa - non existent

Please Euros take the UN and kick us out !!!

[Rani]

So israel doesn't want to bomb the palestinians out of existence, you must be kidding!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/30/2456309.htm?section=justin

Maybe you should read this one then:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/30/2456334.htm?section=justin
I sure hope we can bomb Hamas out of existance, everyone who is not a muslim fanatic would profit.
A lot of people have been saying that the solution should be firing 155 mm artillery rounds for every rocket fired, tit for tat if you will. Had that been the case you'd be calling us murderers, while it's ok for Hamas to target civilians. When they do it they are freedom fighters, when we target a terrorist organization you call it 'taking a dump on Gaza'.
If taking civilian casualties was the purpose like you say it is, the situation now where the mass majority of casualties are militants would not be the case. I commonly hear the IDF called cowards for bombing from the air. First of all, how many of the critics have
a) ever been bombarded
b) ever fought guerilla warfare
that they can judge military actions in terms of courage.
Secondly, The fact that Hamas (and Hizbuallah for that matter) fights out of apartment buildings and hides their rockets in people's basements is conveniently overlooked. Where is their 'courage' to fight 'like men' and not hide behind childrens' beds?




Along comes some foreign powers and decided that the jews need a place to call their own because of all the bad things that had been done to them.


Of course the fact we used to live here before has nothing to do with that :rolleyes: .
If I may ask, How many australians lived in Australia before the Aborigines? How many 'americans' before the native americans? How many south africans before the Zulu and the Afrikaner? Why does my moroccan born aunt speak fluent french? Why do Brazilians speak portugese?
how is it almost everywhere I'd go in Africa if I were to yell out

's'il vous plaît levez la main si vous parlez français' everyone around would raise his or her hand ?d
Hypocracy at its best if you ask me.

[Daniel]

I sure hope we can bomb Hamas out of existance, everyone who is not a muslim fanatic would profit.
A lot of people have been saying that the solution should be firing 155 mm artillery rounds for every rocket fired, tit for tat if you will. Had that been the case you'd be calling us murderers, while it's ok for Hamas to target civilians. When they do it they are freedom fighters, when we target a terrorist organization you call it 'taking a dump on Gaza'.
If taking civilian casualties was the purpose like you say it is, the situation now where the mass majority of casualties are militants would not be the case. I commonly hear the IDF called cowards for bombing from the air. First of all, how many of the critics have
a) ever been bombarded
b) ever fought guerilla warfare
that they can judge military actions in terms of courage.
Secondly, The fact that Hamas (and Hizbuallah for that matter) fights out of apartment buildings and hides their rockets in people's basements is conveniently overlooked. Where is their 'courage' to fight 'like men' and not hide behind childrens' beds?


Of course the fact we used to live here before has nothing to do with that :rolleyes: .
If I may ask, How many australians lived in Australia before the Aborigines? How many 'americans' before the native americans? How many south africans before the Zulu and the Afrikaner? Why does my moroccan born aunt speak fluent french? Why do Brazilians speak portugese?
how is it almost everywhere I'd go in Africa if I were to yell out

's'il vous plaît levez la main si vous parlez français' everyone around would raise his or her hand ?d
Hypocracy at its best if you ask me.

Have fun with your little Vietnam in your backyard.

:rotflmao:

[Rani]

Have fun with your little Vietnam in your backyard.

:rotflmao:
Have fun with your roflmaoing bloodshed....

[Roamy]

Rani
Haven't you figured out yet that as far as many on this forum.
It is ok to kill Jews but not Pals. The death of all the Jews in WWII were ok with these guys because they were using too much "air" It is sad to see that
these fools condone rocketing Jews and cry out when they get it in return.

I just hope I see the day when we leave the UN

[Camelopard]

I sure hope we can bomb Hamas out of existance, everyone who is not a muslim fanatic would profit.
A lot of people have been saying that the solution should be firing 155 mm artillery rounds for every rocket fired, tit for tat if you will. Had that been the case you'd be calling us murderers, while it's ok for Hamas to target civilians. When they do it they are freedom fighters, when we target a terrorist organization you call it 'taking a dump on Gaza'.
If taking civilian casualties was the purpose like you say it is, the situation now where the mass majority of casualties are militants would not be the case. I commonly hear the IDF called cowards for bombing from the air. First of all, how many of the critics have
a) ever been bombarded
b) ever fought guerilla warfare
that they can judge military actions in terms of courage.
Secondly, The fact that Hamas (and Hizbuallah for that matter) fights out of apartment buildings and hides their rockets in people's basements is conveniently overlooked. Where is their 'courage' to fight 'like men' and not hide behind childrens' beds?


Of course the fact we used to live here before has nothing to do with that :rolleyes: .
If I may ask, How many australians lived in Australia before the Aborigines? How many 'americans' before the native americans? How many south africans before the Zulu and the Afrikaner? Why does my moroccan born aunt speak fluent french? Why do Brazilians speak portugese?
how is it almost everywhere I'd go in Africa if I were to yell out

's'il vous plaît levez la main si vous parlez français' everyone around would raise his or her hand ?d
Hypocracy at its best if you ask me.

We have been through this before, apart from airy fairy bulldust about the all the jews being a direct descendent of abraham what is your ancestry?
If your version is correct then that means I'm a direct descendent of Jesus Christ given that I'm a Christian! Don't make me laugh.
As usual you are confusing religion with race.
Previously you stated that your family were forced out of their homes in Europe, now you have an aunty born in Morocco, I've told you before that I can trace a direct line on my mother's side back to a small village in Norfolk, records go back to the early 1700's, doesn't mean that I'm English and can go and live there. Actually those forbears were Quakers, doesn't make me one.

[Daniel]

Have fun with your roflmaoing bloodshed....

It's not my bloodshed. It's yours :laugh:

[yodasarmpit]

Of course the fact we used to live here before has nothing to do with that :rolleyes: .

Here in lies the crux of the issue, just because there was a Land of Israel 2000 years ago does not give any religious group a divine right to a land, especially when displacing the native people of that land in the process.

By your reasoning, why don't we go back further and reinstate the Roman Empire.

[yodasarmpit]

Rani
Haven't you figured out yet that as far as many on this forum.
It is ok to kill Jews but not Pals. The death of all the Jews in WWII were ok with these guys because they were using too much "air" It is sad to see that
these fools condone rocketing Jews and cry out when they get it in return.

I just hope I see the day when we leave the UN
You don't get it do you, neither Hamas or Israel are right in this one. If Israel want to play the good guys then they need to act like it.

[Camelopard]

The death of all the Jews in WWII were ok with these guys because they were using too much "air"

I find that remark offensive, and it is exactly the sort of crap that I have been talking about, everytime the jews do something like this, people say it's ok because of the suffering that happened to them in WW2. The jews are not the only ones to have suffered genocide and definately not the only ones persecuted during WW2, want me to post lots more links?

I also find it incredibly ironic that Israel's only Islamic buddy is Turkey, a country that refuses to acknowledge it's part in the Armenian Genocide during and just after WW1. I find it wrong that you can go to jail in Europe for being a Holocast denier, yet the Turks actively deny their role in the Armenian Genocide and no one bats an eyelid. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

Do I have to bring up the cowardly attack on the The King David Hotel by the zionist terrorist organisation irgun, again?

[Roamy]

well good lets make it simple. Have a truce the first one to break it loses their country - simple as that.

[donKey jote]

I sure hope we can bomb Hamas out of existance, everyone who is not a muslim fanatic would profit.
A lot of people have been saying that the solution should be firing 155 mm artillery rounds for every rocket fired, tit for tat if you will. Had that been the case you'd be calling us murderers, while it's ok for Hamas to target civilians. When they do it they are freedom fighters, when we target a terrorist organization you call it 'taking a dump on Gaza'. .
Now change "Hamas" with Israel and "muslim" with "jew", and you'll sound like that Iranian chap :p : . Think about it :)

I'm all for targeting terrorist organisations, but I don't believe the 1.5 Million people in Gaza are all terrorists. Targeting civilians is as morally wrong as Israel's Bomber Harris approach to Gaza.


the situation now where the mass majority of casualties are militants would not be the case.
That rings a bell. Isn't it exactly what we kept hearing throughout Iraq and Afghanistan... all those militant wedding parties eh?
I guess as always it will depend on the source of information. The truth will be somewhere in between.

To me this is all about Israel asserting itself to the post-Bush world, just in case the post-Bush administration starts getting funny ideas :dozey:

Sometimes I give up and would almost favour the fousto approach - fence off the lot of you and let you all take your eyes out :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

Rani
Haven't you figured out yet that as far as many on this forum.
It is ok to kill Jews but not Pals. The death of all the Jews in WWII were ok with these guys because they were using too much "air" It is sad to see that
these fools condone rocketing Jews and cry out when they get it in return.

I for one consider that comment to be highly offensive towards those who don't share your unthinking, badly articulated opinion.

[steve_spackman]

Israel is based on much injustice and many lies, and can never be secure until it admits to this. The US unfortunately continues to back, without reservation, a state founded on religious/ethnic exclusivity which took land and property from rightful owners, allowed the proliferation of an extreme ethno-racist ideology on which land claims were based (the "settlements) and which openly oppresses minorities. It is time that the American people wake up to the Zionist lobby in the US which manipulates the news media and politicians. Without this US support, Israel would be forced to make a just peace

[steve_spackman]

my understanding is that Hamas started it - Therefore you must accept the retaliation!

Israel is based on much injustice and many lies, and can never be secure until it admits to this. The US unfortunately continues to back, without reservation, a state founded on religious/ethnic exclusivity which took land and property from rightful owners, allowed the proliferation of an extreme ethno-racist ideology on which land claims were based (the "settlements) and which openly oppresses minorities. It is time that the American people wake up to the Zionist lobby in the US which manipulates the news media and politicians. Without this US support, Israel would be forced to make a just peace

[BDunnell]

It is time that the American people wake up to the Zionist lobby in the US which manipulates the news media and politicians.

The utter paranoia of the Israeli government, of whichever colour it happens to be, is immensely depressing. I'm sure some lazy-minded person will accuse me of anti-Semitism for saying this (utter nonsense, of course), but its intolerance of criticism is quite breathtaking. Take the example of the British politician who dared to say that she could understand why some people become suicide bombers. There's nothing controversial about that, yet the pressure put on her party through the press by those tasked by Israel with monitoring the media and attacking those who do anything other than toe the official Israeli line in the meekest fashion ensured that she ended up being fired for saying something utterly inoffensive to anyone other than the terminally unimaginative. Not the actions of a nation confident in itself, I'd say.

[Eki]

Israel isn't big enough to give up a 12km buffer zone.
It's still bigger than Gaza. They could move everybody from that buffer zone to some refugee camp somewhere else to see how that feels like.

[steve_spackman]

The utter paranoia of the Israeli government, of whichever colour it happens to be, is immensely depressing. I'm sure some lazy-minded person will accuse me of anti-Semitism for saying this (utter nonsense, of course), but its intolerance of criticism is quite breathtaking. Take the example of the British politician who dared to say that she could understand why some people become suicide bombers. There's nothing controversial about that, yet the pressure put on her party through the press by those tasked by Israel with monitoring the media and attacking those who do anything other than toe the official Israeli line in the meekest fashion ensured that she ended up being fired for saying something utterly inoffensive to anyone other than the terminally unimaginative. Not the actions of a nation confident in itself, I'd say.

Even if you set aside the magnitude of Israel's violations of the Geneva conventions and the long terrible history of its methodical collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza, consider the vastly disproportionate carnage in the conflict. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind," Gandhi said.
What about a hundred eyes for an eye?
It makes some of the world ill with rage. And it turns much of the United States numb with silence. Routinely, the politicians and pundits of Washington can't summon minimal decency in themselves or each other on the subject of Israel and Palestinians.
While officialdom inside the Beltway seems frozen in fear of risking "anti-Semitism" charges by actually standing up for the human rights of Palestinian people, some progress at the grassroots level has been noticeable. It includes the growth of groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace, Tikkun and The Shalom Center, where activists have worked to refute the false claims that American Jews are united behind Israeli policies.
At the epicentres of the conflict - where the belief that "only force can assure justice" seems to be even stronger than when I. F. Stone wrote about it 41 years ago - the conclusion has been drawn and redrawn so many times that deadly repetition has become paralytic. While some Palestinian "militants" have terrorised and murdered, the Israeli government has terrorized and murdered on a much bigger scale, using a vast arsenal largely financed by US taxpayers.
From afar, in the United States, it's too easy to shake our heads at the lethal loss of moral vision. Don't they know that "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"? But the cycle of violence is extremely asymmetrical - while the US government provides Israel with billions of dollars and invaluable "diplomatic" support.
What's going on in Gaza right now is not just an eye for an eye. It's a hundred eyes for an eye. And the current slaughter is not only an ongoing Israeli war crime. It has an accomplice named Uncle Sam.

[Eki]

I for one consider that comment to be highly offensive towards those who don't share your unthinking, badly articulated opinion.
Fousto likes to provoke hatred. If he's trying to provoke hatred towards the Palestinians, he's being counter-productive.

[BDunnell]

Fousto likes to provoke hatred. If he's trying to provoke hatred towards the Palestinians, he's being counter-productive.

An all-too-familiar tactic on the part of others, I think.

[Valve Bounce]

This thread is becoming exactly like the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Nobody can see the other side's arguments. I guess this just about sums up the situation there.

What worries me is the massive civilian death toll, and this will only breed hatred and a new generation of suicide bombers.

The overriding axiom that seems to be overlooked here: A war against guerrillas cannot be won.

[BDunnell]

This thread is becoming exactly like the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Nobody can see the other side's arguments. I guess this just about sums up the situation there.

:up:

As I said, put very simply, it will need some give and take to resolve this situation. But this should not blind us to the fact that we should not be afraid of criticising the actions of either side when we feel it's necessary.



What worries me is the massive civilian death toll, and this will only breed hatred and a new generation of suicide bombers.

Unfortunately, governments (and terrorists) seem unable to understand this point. For instance, does al-Qaeda seriously believe that it will achieve some sort of victory through its terrorism?

[Rani]

Now change "Hamas" with Israel and "muslim" with "jew", and you'll sound like that Iranian chap :p : . Think about it :)

I'm all for targeting terrorist organisations, but I don't believe the 1.5 Million people in Gaza are all terrorists. Targeting civilians is as morally wrong as Israel's Bomber Harris approach to Gaza.



How can you compare a a terrorist organization with a sovereign democratic country (as someone said, the only democracy in the region)?
You can change many a quote and make Gandhi sound like Hitler. Means nothing.
No civilians were targetted. Had they been targetted, five minutes would be all it would take to flatten Gaza.
I guess it would look pretty damn similar to the way Dresden looked after all you judgemental and hypocritical brits' 'R'AF dropped 3900 tons of bombs and napalm on it.




You don't get it do you, neither Hamas or Israel are right in this one. If Israel want to play the good guys then they need to act like it.

Acting like the good guys would be letting Hamas bombard israeli citizens uninterrupted?



As I said, put very simply, it will need some give and take to resolve this situation. But this should not blind us to the fact that we should not be afraid of criticising the actions of either side when we feel it's necessary.



In Israel's position, what would you do now?
We've already given Gaza, and all we got in return is this.
I want to know of a country so 'humane' it would wait 8 years to retaliate against daily firing of rockets on its citizens. Every country has a right and an obligation to defend its citizens.
I really want to hear your opinions about what you'd do in Israel's shoes. If it's doable I'm for it, I just think your arrogance in thinking you're smarter than every ME leader in the last 60 years is amusing.

[Rani]

The overriding axiom that seems to be overlooked here: A war against guerrillas cannot be won.
But sadly has to be waged...

[BDunnell]

In Israel's position, what would you do now?
We've already given Gaza, and all we got in return is this.
I want to know of a country so 'humane' it would wait 8 years to retaliate against daily firing of rockets on its citizens. Every country has a right and an obligation to defend its citizens.
I really want to hear your opinions about what you'd do in Israel's shoes. If it's doable I'm for it, I just think your arrogance in thinking you're smarter than every ME leader in the last 60 years is amusing.

'Wait eight years to retaliate'? Are you suggesting this is the first Israeli reaction against the Hamas rockets? Anyway, I have said what I think the course of action should be — to declare a ceasefire, swallow a bit of pride, enter into peace negotiations, and, while they are about it, end the culture of utter paranoia regarding criticism. None of this is rocket science and it all represents perfectly achievable ends. But both sides need to make sacrifices and concessions if this is to happen. This is, after all, how negotiations work — and I mean 'work', as Northern Ireland proved.

[BDunnell]

But sadly has to be waged...

What is the point if such a conflict cannot be won? All that results is a pointless waste of lives. It is not good enough trying to assert some form of moral superiority, for both sides could legitimately claim that.

[donKey jote]

How can you compare a a terrorist organization with a sovereign democratic country (as someone said, the only democracy in the region)?
go on, tell me Hamas weren't elected with 2/3rds of the vote :dozey:
I'm comparing a sovereign democratic country acting like a terrorist state with an unsovereign pseudo-democratic ghetto acting like a donkey or viceversa.
Comparing apples with oranges is just as valid - if your mind is open enough to see that both are fruits (no pun intended).


You can change many a quote and make Gandhi sound like Hitler. Means nothing.
It means only that to an outsider like myself, both of you can come across as just as fanatic. No more, no less.


No civilians were targetted.
Not directly. Not that they would probably matter too much to you of course, after all they're all terrorist/Hamas-supporters (or so the majority of them voted).


I guess it would look pretty damn similar to the way Dresden looked after all you judgemental and hypocritical brits' 'R'AF dropped 3900 tons of bombs and napalm on it.
The Israel = Bomber Harris touched a nerve?
Sorry, how could I compare ...

[BDunnell]

No civilians were targetted. Had they been targetted, five minutes would be all it would take to flatten Gaza.
I guess it would look pretty damn similar to the way Dresden looked after all you judgemental and hypocritical brits' 'R'AF dropped 3900 tons of bombs and napalm on it.

You seem to believe that all of us Brits automatically hold the same view on such matters. If so, you are completely wrong, I'm afraid.

[Rani]

to declare a ceasefire, swallow a bit of pride, enter into peace negotiations. But both sides need to make sacrifices and concessions if this is to happen. This is, after all, how negotiations work — and I mean 'work', as Northern Ireland proved.
I completely agree. The atmosphere around here is that we need to concede major parts of Israel, and I think the people are willing to do that. On the other hand, Hamas broke the ceasefire and is not willing to accept Israel's right to exist. If so, how could you negotiate?
Accepting us is the first baby step to negotiating, and they aren't willing to do even that. As I said earlier, Hamas' platform is generally based on fighting Israel. It's right for existing is that they perform Jihad against Israel. Had Fatah been in control in Gaza I think a ceasefire and coopertion like you see now between the IDF and palestinians forces in the west bank could have taken place in Gaza also. Sadly, gazans chose Hamas and look where it has gotten them and us. I'm sorry for them and also for us.





What is the point if such a conflict cannot be won? All that results is a pointless waste of lives. It is not good enough trying to assert some form of moral superiority, for both sides could legitimately claim that.

Fighting these organizations means putting a price tag on Israeli lives they will not be willing to pay. As simple as that. Everyone knows you can't erase Hamas or Hizbuallah in one swift blow, but you have to motivate them to stop for their own good.

BTW BDunnell, if you're a brit why do you have a german flag waving by your username?

[Camelopard]

Israel is based on much injustice and many lies, and can never be secure until it admits to this. The US unfortunately continues to back, without reservation, a state founded on religious/ethnic exclusivity which took land and property from rightful owners, allowed the proliferation of an extreme ethno-racist ideology on which land claims were based (the "settlements) and which openly oppresses minorities. It is time that the American people wake up to the Zionist lobby in the US which manipulates the news media and politicians. Without this US support, Israel would be forced to make a just peace

Said much better than I ever could, thankyou.

[Roamy]

Fousto likes to provoke hatred. If he's trying to provoke hatred towards the Palestinians, he's being counter-productive.

I don't hate the palestinians. I hate Hamas and what they stand for. I don't hate all iranians I hate armajohnfuch and what he stands for. I recognize Israel's right to survive and live in peace - something few of you recognize.

[Eki]

I really want to hear your opinions about what you'd do in Israel's shoes.
On individual level, I personally wouldn't move to a foreign country and take land by force. If everybody who has emigrated to Israel since the 40s moved backed to where they came from, there would be more land for everybody and peace more achievable. Also changing back the name of Israel to Palestine might also alleviate the hard feelings.

[Rani]

On individual level, I personally wouldn't move to a foreign country and take land by force. If everybody who has emigrated to Israel since the 40s moved backed to where they came from, there would be more land for everybody and peace more achievable. Also changing back the name of Israel to Palestine might also alleviate the hard feelings.
Ain't gonna happen Eki ...
I'm also sure the pols,germans, morrocans, iraqis, iranians, egyptians, russians, ethiopians, romanians, argentinians etc. would gladly hear your offer and move out of the houses they 'inherited'.
Great offer, very doable.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't hate the palestinians. I hate Hamas and what they stand for. I don't hate all iranians I hate armajohnfuch and what he stands for. I recognize Israel's right to survive and live in peace - something few of you recognize.

I don't think many here realise how true this is. When I was working in Iran not that long ago, in the regions, many there were not hestitant in voicing their objections to the mullahs and this guy Armadinaj with disdain. However, in Tehran, those who object have to do so quietly and carefully for fear of reprisal.

[Eki]

Ain't gonna happen Eki ...
I'm also sure the pols,germans, morrocans, iraqis, iranians, egyptians, russians, ethiopians, romanians, argentinians etc. would gladly hear your offer and move out of the houses they 'inherited'.
Great offer, very doable.
I understand not everyone can not easily go back, but it would help if at least those from North America and Western Europe did. Many of them have highly marketable skills and businesses and would likely be warmly welcomed.

[Easy Drifter]

What many forget is that modern Israel was created not by the UK or the USA. It was created by non other than the United Nations in 1947. The same United Nations that is so quick to denounce Israel's every move today. Their creation.
We have a UN spokesman denouncing the countries who supply arms to Israel. Not a word about the countries who supply arms to Hamas.
It may not be peace but Israel gets along fairly well with Jordan and Eygpt. Most of the time with Syria and even Lebanon when renegade groups do not fire rockets into Israel. Even the West Bank Palestinians are now fairly peaceable.
It is only Gaza and the Hamas who are constantly at odds with Israel. Hamas, who refuse to accept Israel has the right to exist. Hamas who cries out to the UN who created Israel in the first place.
Do not forget that within days of Israel's creation by the United Nations all of the surrounding countries attacked her.
Israel is like the tiger whose tail you twist. The first time she is annoyed and growls. The second time she is getting mad and snarls. The third time and all h--l breaks loose. Leave her alone and she will leave probably leave you alone.
It was like tweaking the English lion's nose in the 19th and early 20th centuries. You soon wished you hadn't. Even not so many years ago Argentina found that out the hard way.
Eki: As far as everyone returning to where they came from there would be no settled North or South America or Australia or New Zealand. Today a good percentage of most of Europe's population (including the UK) are immigrants from elsewhere.
Be realistic man.
I am not saying Israel is totally in the right but Hamas brought this on themselves. Not all the people of Gaza, just Hamas and then only the militant ones. Unforunately all suffer.

[BDunnell]

Fighting these organizations means putting a price tag on Israeli lives they will not be willing to pay. As simple as that. Everyone knows you can't erase Hamas or Hizbuallah in one swift blow, but you have to motivate them to stop for their own good.

I can't think of any instance in which such a group has been motivated to stop by such means, I'm afraid, unless you count examples like Nazi Germany.



BTW BDunnell, if you're a brit why do you have a german flag waving by your username?

Used to live there and would like to move back there.

[BDunnell]

Ain't gonna happen Eki ...
I'm also sure the pols,germans, morrocans, iraqis, iranians, egyptians, russians, ethiopians, romanians, argentinians etc. would gladly hear your offer and move out of the houses they 'inherited'.
Great offer, very doable.

I must agree with you there. Seeking to deny the existence of Israel doesn't help this situation, for the notion of citizenship is a very strong one.

[BDunnell]

What many forget is that modern Israel was created not by the UK or the USA. It was created by non other than the United Nations in 1947. The same United Nations that is so quick to denounce Israel's every move today. Their creation.

I don't think there is anything hypocritical about this criticism, because times and circumstances change.

[donKey jote]

I completely agree. The atmosphere around here is that we need to concede major parts of Israel, and I think the people are willing to do that. On the other hand, Hamas broke the ceasefire and is not willing to accept Israel's right to exist. If so, how could you negotiate?
Accepting us is the first baby step to negotiating, and they aren't willing to do even that.
Your words give hope Rani, and possibly constitute the other baby step. Maybe you're not as fanatical as I thought, sorry !


In other news closer to my home: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/7805877.stm ...
On the subject of putting one life at higher value than another, how do the 800 killed by ETA compare to the Israeli lives lost to rocket attacks ?
Now should Spain put a wall around the Basque country, bomb the whole of it, or maybe only the 200.000 people who elect the ETA political arm into the Basque parliament?

As Ben says, negotiation (covert or not) is the only way. Maybe a bit of pressure in the right places from the US would also help, as it did with NI.

[yodasarmpit]

Ain't gonna happen Eki ...
I'm also sure the pols,germans, morrocans, iraqis, iranians, egyptians, russians, ethiopians, romanians, argentinians etc. would gladly hear your offer and move out of the houses they 'inherited'.
Great offer, very doable.I have to agree, it is unrealistic after 60 years to expect Israelis to get up and leave.
The state should never have been formed in the first place, but we have to accept now that it has the people of Israel should be able to live free of fear.

I believe Israel does need to concede parts of the occupied territories, a process that was started a few years ago, but has since been rescinded.
Also indiscriminately bombing a civilian population will only strengthen Hamas's resolve and help create future members.

Hamas, although democratically elected, are still in my view a terrorist organisation. I don't think that trying to bomb the hell out of them will make any difference, as we have seen in Afghanistan this just doesn't work.

You know what? I don't know what the answer is, I just know that both sides bombing each other is doomed to failure and the creation of future generations who fear and hate each other.

Irsael are the one in the position of power and have the ability to show they are the good guys, Israel has the ability to show humility and kindness to it's neighbors and make some small steps to restoring the peace.
Be the good guys in the region by acting like the good guys.

[steve_spackman]

I don't hate the palestinians. I hate Hamas and what they stand for. I don't hate all iranians I hate armajohnfuch and what he stands for. I recognize Israel's right to survive and live in peace - something few of you recognize.

This is an obscenely vicious outrage. They (Israel) kill hundreds. They have one or two casualties, and the world is supposed to fall to its knees and weep for Israel. May God speak to the heart of Obama, and take him to see the slaughter firsthand, so he begins to GET IT!! This brutality towards the Palestinians, whose land they have stolen since 1948, nearly all of it, is the shame of the world. Imagine being a Palestinian child, wondering why NO ONE seems to care?

How Jewish people, who have suffered so much over centuries, can inflict so much pain on others and disregard lives of other human beings?!

[Rani]

This is an obscenely vicious outrage. They (Israel) kill hundreds. They have one or two casualties, and the world is supposed to fall to its knees and weep for Israel. May God speak to the heart of Obama, and take him to see the slaughter firsthand, so he begins to GET IT!! This brutality towards the Palestinians, whose land they have stolen since 1948, nearly all of it, is the shame of the world. Imagine being a Palestinian child, wondering why NO ONE seems to care?

How Jewish people, who have suffered so much over centuries, can inflict so much pain on others and disregard lives of other human beings?!
Obama has already been here, I think he saw the whoe picture both in southern Israel and in Gaza. I trust he saw the picture better than you. Have you ever visited?
BTW that Dresden remark was marked towards you. Such hypocrisy, such blindness. Were you shouting outrage when Hamas was taking the lives of 20 innocent people a day in the name of Allah? How about when Samir Kuntar killed the Haran family's little daughters by smashing their skulls with his gun?
I guess that was self defence in your view,

[steve_spackman]

Obama has already been here, I think he saw the whoe picture both in southern Israel and in Gaza. I trust he saw the picture better than you. Have you ever visited?
BTW that Dresden remark was marked towards you. Such hypocrisy, such blindness. Were you shouting outrage when Hamas was taking the lives of 20 innocent people a day in the name of Allah? How about when Samir Kuntar killed the Haran family's little daughters by smashing their skulls with his gun?
I guess that was self defence in your view,

The truth seems to get your feathers rustled by what i see.

all as bad as each other, but Israel seems to think its above all international laws (along with the US) and takes it too far. But without the US Israel is nothing, but a coward and this is the main problem that Israel has....

Israel is based on much injustice and many lies, and can never be secure until it admits to this. The US unfortunately continues to back, without reservation, a state founded on religious/ethnic exclusivity which took land and property from rightful owners, allowed the proliferation of an extreme ethno-racist ideology on which land claims were based (the "settlements) and which openly oppresses minorities. It is time that the American people wake up to the Zionist lobby in the US which manipulates the news media and politicians. Without this US support, Israel would be forced to make a just peace

[Daniel]

I guess it would look pretty damn similar to the way Dresden looked after all you judgemental and hypocritical brits' 'R'AF dropped 3900 tons of bombs and napalm on it.

:up:

I think there isn't enough said about what the RAF did to the German civilians during WW2 with their indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in Germany towards the end of the war. It is NO better than what the Germans did to the Jews in the deathcamps. I've posted many times about what the British did then on this forum so please don't brand me a hyopcrite ;)

But that of course doesn't make it right for Israel to bomb Gaza indiscriminately.

[yodasarmpit]

:up:

I think there isn't enough said about what the RAF did to the German civilians during WW2 with their indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in Germany towards the end of the war. It is NO better than what the Germans did to the Jews in the deathcamps. I've posted many times about what the British did then on this forum so please don't brand me a hyopcrite ;)

But that of course doesn't make it right for Israel to bomb Gaza indiscriminately.Like Daniel, I also agree the bombings of Dresden was not only unnecessary, but a gross violation of human rights.
I can't change the past, but we can all have a voice in the future.

[steve_spackman]

Like Daniel, I also agree the bombings of Dresden was not only unnecessary, but a gross violation of human rights.
I can't change the past, but we can all have a voice in the future.

i would agree with you 100%, but then im not too sure that Israel knows the meaning of the words human rights....

[BDunnell]

I think there isn't enough said about what the RAF did to the German civilians during WW2 with their indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in Germany towards the end of the war. It is NO better than what the Germans did to the Jews in the deathcamps.

While I do agree that there is a good argument for saying that the campaign was indiscriminate, I don't think it's possible to make a judgment as to whether this was better or worse than the concentration camps. I know what I think about the matter, but feel that this is a whole other thread.

[Daniel]

While I do agree that there is a good argument for saying that the campaign was indiscriminate, I don't think it's possible to make a judgment as to whether this was better or worse than the concentration camps. I know what I think about the matter, but feel that this is a whole other thread.

Perhaps. But murder from 30,000 feet is still murder.

[Roamy]

Your words give hope Rani, and possibly constitute the other baby step. Maybe you're not as fanatical as I thought, sorry !


In other news closer to my home: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/7805877.stm ...
On the subject of putting one life at higher value than another, how do the 800 killed by ETA compare to the Israeli lives lost to rocket attacks ?
Now should Spain put a wall around the Basque country, bomb the whole of it, or maybe only the 200.000 people who elect the ETA political arm into the Basque parliament?

As Ben says, negotiation (covert or not) is the only way. Maybe a bit of pressure in the right places from the US would also help, as it did with NI.

Maybe you should ask the families of the 800?


I have to agree, it is unrealistic after 60 years to expect Israelis to get up and leave.
The state should never have been formed in the first place, but we have to accept now that it has the people of Israel should be able to live free of fear.

I believe Israel does need to concede parts of the occupied territories, a process that was started a few years ago, but has since been rescinded.
Also indiscriminately bombing a civilian population will only strengthen Hamas's resolve and help create future members.

Hamas, although democratically elected, are still in my view a terrorist organisation. I don't think that trying to bomb the hell out of them will make any difference, as we have seen in Afghanistan this just doesn't work.

You know what? I don't know what the answer is, I just know that both sides bombing each other is doomed to failure and the creation of future generations who fear and hate each other.

Irsael are the one in the position of power and have the ability to show they are the good guys, Israel has the ability to show humility and kindness to it's neighbors and make some small steps to restoring the peace.
Be the good guys in the region by acting like the good guys.

OMG pass the fuching Bong! It has been raining rocket on Israel armpit - Take you argument to Hamas and Iran.


The truth seems to get your feathers rustled by what i see.

all as bad as each other, but Israel seems to think its above all international laws (along with the US) and takes it too far. But without the US Israel is nothing, but a coward and this is the main problem that Israel has....

Israel is based on much injustice and many lies, and can never be secure until it admits to this. The US unfortunately continues to back, without reservation, a state founded on religious/ethnic exclusivity which took land and property from rightful owners, allowed the proliferation of an extreme ethno-racist ideology on which land claims were based (the "settlements) and which openly oppresses minorities. It is time that the American people wake up to the Zionist lobby in the US which manipulates the news media and politicians. Without this US support, Israel would be forced to make a just peace

Spackman - You are so anti Israeli and US that it would serve you well to go live with Hugo Chavez

Without the support of the US, Israel would be either be eliminated or command the entire region - OOOOOh the latter sounds pretty good to me.
Live in peace - you need to take a few courses over at Reality University!!
Along with CamelToe I might add.

[steve_spackman]

Maybe you should ask the families of the 800?



OMG pass the fuching Bong! It has been raining rocket on Israel armpit - Take you argument to Hamas and Iran.



Spackman - You are so anti Israeli and US that it would serve you well to go live with Hugo Chavez

Without the support of the US, Israel would be either be eliminated or command the entire region - OOOOOh the latter sounds pretty good to me.
Live in peace - you need to take a few courses over at Reality University!!
Along with CamelToe I might add.

thanks for the remarks..i shall keep your advice close to hand...
theres nowt wrong with being anti Israel or US...it seems by the sounds of it you are anti anyone who does not think the ways of the US.

[Easy Drifter]

Like Germany did not bomb the civilian population of the UK? What was the Blitz? Such selective memory!
As I pointed out earlier it was the United Nations that created Israel, not the UK or US. If anyone stole the land originally it was the UN.
Yes part of Israel is land she took from various Arab Countries after they attacked and invaded Israel. She has also returned much of the land she took. Not all but much. Very few countries have ever done that willingly.
Many Palestinians live within Israel's borders peaceably.
Speaking of the UN when have they suceeded in doing anything but selective bleating for many years? Note suceeded.
Anywhere in Africa?
The former Yugoslavia?
Iraq?
Afghanistan?
Iran?
Originally the UN was somewhat effective. (Cyprus, Korea).
Now they are as ineffective as the League of Nations was.
I am not totally supportive of Israel's actions but the history of Israel shows that when she eventually retaliates she does so with massive force. Hamas had to know that.
Setting up your 'compounds' and rocket launching sites next to schools and hospitals might deter strikes from some nations but not from Israel.
Using the innocent to shield them is a trick also used by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Contrary to popular belief Guerilla warfare can be beaten. Not easily but it can. The UK succeeded in Malaysia and in several of the Gulf States.
The main criteria in success is to get the local population on your side. NATO is trying to do that in Afghanistan
I do not think that is possible in Gaza now. There is too much hatred of Israel pounded into the population from the Hamas and the schools. Mind you even Hezbolla seem to have settled down.
There is no easy solution.
As long as Israel is attacked she will retaliate in force. Her very existance depends on her ability to not only defend herself but to make attacking her cause massive retaliation with devestating results.
There is little doubt Israel has nuclear weapons and the ability to deliver them.
Right now Iran scares the heck out of Israel with it's development of nuclear capabilities. Another example of the futility of the UN.
I just hope Israel does not feel threatened enough to attack Iran with nuclear weapons. She has the capability to do so if the US allows her to.
With the US command of Iraq airspace they can stop any attack with their own missiles if needed.
Nice mess Ollie!!!

[SOD]

^ fousto, the reality is, if a few weak rockets were falling on your head, you'd be hightailing somewhere else the same way the hardasses of Beersheba are doing right now. even though their condition is in no way comparable with the mass murder inflicted upon Gaza at the moment.

[steve_spackman]

[quote="Easy Drifter"]Like Germany did not bomb the civilian population of the UK? What was the Blitz? Such selective memory!
As I pointed out earlier it was the United Nations that created Israel, not the UK or US. If anyone stole the land originally it was the UN.
Yes part of Israel is land she took from various Arab Countries after they attacked and invaded Israel. She has also returned much of the land she took. Not all but much. Very few countries have ever done that willingly.
Many Palestinians live within Israel's borders peaceably.
Speaking of the UN when have they suceeded in doing anything but selective bleating for many years? Note suceeded.
Anywhere in Africa?
The former Yugoslavia?
Iraq?
Afghanistan?
Iran?
Originally the UN was somewhat effective. (Cyprus, Korea).
Now they are as ineffective as the League of Nations was.
I am not totally supportive of Israel's actions but the history of Israel shows that when she eventually retaliates she does so with massive force. Hamas had to know that.
Setting up your 'compounds' and rocket launching sites next to schools and hospitals might deter strikes from some nations but not from Israel.
Using the innocent to shield them is a trick also used by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Contrary to popular belief Guerilla warfare can be beaten. Not easily but it can. The UK succeeded in Malaysia and in several of the Gulf States.
The main criteria in success is to get the local population on your side. NATO is trying to do that in Afghanistan
I do not think that is possible in Gaza now. There is too much hatred of Israel pounded into the population from the Hamas and the schools. Mind you even Hezbolla seem to have settled down.
There is no easy solution.
As long as Israel is attacked she will retaliate in force. Her very existance depends on her ability to not only defend herself but to make attacking her cause massive retaliation with devestating results.
There is little doubt Israel has nuclear weapons and the ability to deliver them.
Right now Iran scares the heck out of Israel with it's development of nuclear capabilities. Another example of the futility of the UN.
I just hope Israel does not feel threatened enough to attack Iran with nuclear weapons. She has the capability to do so if the US allows her to.
With the US command of Iraq airspace they can stop any attack with their own missiles if needed.
Nice mess Ollie!!![/quote


For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population – approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish – living in peace.

In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as Zionists, this group consisted of an extremist minority of the Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story583.htmlhttp://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
At first, this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine – many with the express wish of taking over the land for a Jewish state – the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, fighting broke out, with escalating waves of violence. Hitler’s rise to power and Nazi atrocities, combined with Zionist activities to sabotage efforts to place Jewish refugees in western countries, led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.

Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of “self-determination of peoples,” in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power divides up other people’s land.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/164333b501ca09e785256cc5005470c3%21OpenDocumenthtt p://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html
Under considerable Zionist pressure, the UN recommended giving away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state – despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

While it is widely and correctly reported that the resulting war eventually included five Arab armies, less well known is the fact that throughout this war Zionist forces outnumbered all Arab and Palestinian combatants combined – often by a factor of two to three. Also contrary to popular belief, Arab armies did not invade Israel – virtually all battles were fought on land that was to have been the Palestinian state.
Finally, it is significant to note that Arab armies entered the conflict only after Zionist forces had committed 16 massacres, including the grisly massacre of over 100 men, women, and children at Deir Yassin. Future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, head of one of the Jewish terrorist groups, called this a “splendid act of conquest,” and stated: “As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.” Zionist/Israeli forces committed 33 massacres altogether.
By the end of the war, Israel had conquered 78 percent of Palestine; three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees; over 500 towns and villages had been destroyed; and a new map was drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock received a new, Hebrew name, as all vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. For many decades Israel denied the existence of this population, former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once saying: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian.”

In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 – the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since, according to international law it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war, these are occupied territories and do not belong to Israel. It also occupied parts of Egypt (since returned) and Syria (which remain under occupation).

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/b08a2e4d1fde5cec85256b98006e752f%21OpenDocumenthtt p://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html

Also during the Six-Day War, Israel attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty, killing and injuring over 200 American servicemen. President Lyndon Johnson recalled rescue flights, saying that he did not want to "embarrass an ally." (In 2004 a high-level commission chaired by Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, found this attack to be “an act of war against the United States,” a fact few news media have reported.)

There are two primary issues at the core of this continuing conflict. First, there is the inevitably destabilizing effect of trying to maintain an ethnically preferential state, particularly when it is largely of foreign origin – the original population of what is now Israel was 96 percent Muslim and Christian. Yet, Muslim and Christian refugees are prohibited from returning to their homes in the self-described Jewish state. (And those within Israel are subjected to systematic discrimination.)
Second, Israel’s continued military occupation and confiscation of privately owned land in the West Bank, and control over Gaza, are being resisted by Palestinian inhabitants. It is these occupied territories that, according to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, were going to become a Palestinian state. However, when Israel continued to confiscate land in these areas and to move its citizens onto it, the Palestinian population rebelled. (The Barak offer, widely reputed to be generous, was anything but.) This uprising, called the “Intifada” (Arabic for “shaking off”) began in the fall of 2000.

Largely due to one-sided special-interest lobbying, U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using their tax dollars, many are calling for an end to this expenditure.

[steve_spackman]

Maybe you should ask the families of the 800?



OMG pass the fuching Bong! It has been raining rocket on Israel armpit - Take you argument to Hamas and Iran.



Spackman - You are so anti Israeli and US that it would serve you well to go live with Hugo Chavez

Without the support of the US, Israel would be either be eliminated or command the entire region - OOOOOh the latter sounds pretty good to me.
Live in peace - you need to take a few courses over at Reality University!!
Along with CamelToe I might add.


For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population – approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish – living in peace.
In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as Zionists, this group consisted of an extremist minority of the Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.
At first, this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine – many with the express wish of taking over the land for a Jewish state – the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, fighting broke out, with escalating waves of violence. Hitler’s rise to power and Nazi atrocities, combined with Zionist activities to sabotage efforts to place Jewish refugees in western countries, led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.
Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of “self-determination of peoples,” in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power divides up other people’s land.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/164333b501ca09e785256cc5005470c3%21OpenDocument
Under considerable Zionist pressure, the UN recommended giving away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state – despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.
While it is widely and correctly reported that the resulting war eventually included five Arab armies, less well known is the fact that throughout this war Zionist forces outnumbered all Arab and Palestinian combatants combined – often by a factor of two to three. Also contrary to popular belief, Arab armies did not invade Israel – virtually all battles were fought on land that was to have been the Palestinian state.
Finally, it is significant to note that Arab armies entered the conflict only after Zionist forces had committed 16 massacres, including the grisly massacre of over 100 men, women, and children at Deir Yassin. Future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, head of one of the Jewish terrorist groups, called this a “splendid act of conquest,” and stated: “As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.” Zionist/Israeli forces committed 33 massacres altogether.
By the end of the war, Israel had conquered 78 percent of Palestine; three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees; over 500 towns and villages had been destroyed; and a new map was drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock received a new, Hebrew name, as all vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. For many decades Israel denied the existence of this population, former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once saying: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian.”
In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 – the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since, according to international law it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war, these are occupied territories and do not belong to Israel. It also occupied parts of Egypt (since returned) and Syria (which remain under occupation).

Also during the Six-Day War, Israel attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty, killing and injuring over 200 American servicemen. President Lyndon Johnson recalled rescue flights, saying that he did not want to "embarrass an ally." (In 2004 a high-level commission chaired by Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, found this attack to be “an act of war against the United States,” a fact few news media have reported.)
There are two primary issues at the core of this continuing conflict. First, there is the inevitably destabilizing effect of trying to maintain an ethnically preferential state, particularly when it is largely of foreign origin – the original population of what is now Israel was 96 percent Muslim and Christian. Yet, Muslim and Christian refugees are prohibited from returning to their homes in the self-described Jewish state. (And those within Israel are subjected to systematic discrimination.)
Second, Israel’s continued military occupation and confiscation of privately owned land in the West Bank, and control over Gaza, are being resisted by Palestinian inhabitants. It is these occupied territories that, according to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, were going to become a Palestinian state. However, when Israel continued to confiscate land in these areas and to move its citizens onto it, the Palestinian population rebelled. (The Barak offer, widely reputed to be generous, was anything but.) This uprising, called the “Intifada” (Arabic for “shaking off”) began in the fall of 2000.
Largely due to one-sided special-interest lobbying, U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using their tax dollars, many are calling for an end to this expenditure

[steve_spackman]

thanks for the remarks..i shall keep your advice close to hand...
theres nowt wrong with being anti Israel or US...it seems by the sounds of it you are anti anyone who does not think the ways of the US.

but then please note i am not anti US as part of my family are American..its the policies and people like you who support such madness and who believe everything you are told by the US government and its media

[BDunnell]

but then please note i am not anti US as part of my family are American..its the policies and people like you who support such madness and who believe everything you are told by the US government and its media

I shouldn't worry. Accusations of being anti-American are generally only levelled by those bellicose, belligerent Americans who go along with George W's 'you're either with us or against us' line — one of the most disgracefully trite statements uttered by a US President in recent memory, yet which struck a chord with those of little brain.

[steve_spackman]

I shouldn't worry. Accusations of being anti-American are generally only levelled by those bellicose, belligerent Americans who go along with George W's 'you're either with us or against us' line — one of the most disgracefully trite statements uttered by a US President in recent memory, yet which struck a chord with those of little brain.

very well said

[Roamy]

^ fousto, the reality is, if a few weak rockets were falling on your head, you'd be hightailing somewhere else the same way the hardasses of Beersheba are doing right now. even though their condition is in no way comparable with the mass murder inflicted upon Gaza at the moment.


No the reality is over 6000 rockets have be launched at Israel. The facts are that the price of terrorism is going up. This is civilian collateral damage. The Pals elected Hamas so there you have it. Hamas only needed to extend the cease fire and quite firing rockets. The reality of the situation is that you guys need to quit trying to live in the past and deal with the future. The history of Israel is not going to change the state of today. Today is what the world needs to deal with. If provoked Israel is going to blow sh!t up. So you have three options
!. Leave them alone
2. have a war
3. eliminate them off the face of the earth

you want to negotiate then see no 1.
you people are going to be right back here with your history bullsh!t the day
Israel attacks Iran.
People with bigger guns have warned you about making Nukes but you continue on. Well if you can have them we can have them and when we get them you are history. I think the world is now starting to be concerned. But where is your beloved UN pukes - nowhere in preventing anything. The world could easily prevent Iran from having nukes but oh no they want to wait until someone blows the out of them and then oh we condemn that action. This world has lost any sense of reality.
1. you have people sending there kids to school to learn to kill you.
2. you have children used as suicide bombers
3. you have people running around figuring ways to kill million and millions of civilians.

You guys run around saying Oh let me try to "love" you - You don't really mean that. Oh we can change you pre-taught kids to love us.

I don't even think you guys have the ability to fuching wake up!! you guys have laid down so bad the Islams are going to use the crack in your ass to park their bicycles!!

[BDunnell]

Those of us less paranoid about the threat of terrorism are prepared to get on with our lives without endlessly worrying about 'the Islams' as you not very eloquently call them.

[steve_spackman]

No the reality is over 6000 rockets have be launched at Israel. The facts are that the price of terrorism is going up. This is civilian collateral damage. The Pals elected Hamas so there you have it. Hamas only needed to extend the cease fire and quite firing rockets. The reality of the situation is that you guys need to quit trying to live in the past and deal with the future. The history of Israel is not going to change the state of today. Today is what the world needs to deal with. If provoked Israel is going to blow sh!t up. So you have three options
!. Leave them alone
2. have a war
3. eliminate them off the face of the earth

you want to negotiate then see no 1.
you people are going to be right back here with your history bullsh!t the day
Israel attacks Iran.
People with bigger guns have warned you about making Nukes but you continue on. Well if you can have them we can have them and when we get them you are history. I think the world is now starting to be concerned. But where is your beloved UN pukes - nowhere in preventing anything. The world could easily prevent Iran from having nukes but oh no they want to wait until someone blows the out of them and then oh we condemn that action. This world has lost any sense of reality.
1. you have people sending there kids to school to learn to kill you.
2. you have children used as suicide bombers
3. you have people running around figuring ways to kill million and millions of civilians.

You guys run around saying Oh let me try to "love" you - You don't really mean that. Oh we can change you pre-taught kids to love us.

I don't even think you guys have the ability to fuching wake up!! you guys have laid down so bad the Islams are going to use the crack in your ass to park their bicycles!!

dont worry people this is coming from someone who has the trends of a paranoid schzophrenic,

[Roamy]

the thing about you guys is that you are destined to be conquered without a shot being fired. It is you that are so paranoid of collateral damage that you are willing to lay down at any price. Believe Obama will not be the "Lamb" you think he will be. And yes I really don't want you "with us" as I know what you would be in the course of battle. A fuching welcome mat !!!

[BDunnell]

the thing about you guys is that you are destined to be conquered without a shot being fired. It is you that are so paranoid of collateral damage that you are willing to lay down at any price. Believe Obama will not be the "Lamb" you think he will be. And yes I really don't want you "with us" as I know what you would be in the course of battle. A fuching welcome mat !!!

Don't worry, someone will be round with the pills shortly.

[steve_spackman]

the thing about you guys is that you are destined to be conquered without a shot being fired. It is you that are so paranoid of collateral damage that you are willing to lay down at any price. Believe Obama will not be the "Lamb" you think he will be. And yes I really don't want you "with us" as I know what you would be in the course of battle. A fuching welcome mat !!!

typical narrow minded american..you are the kind of guy that gives the US a bad name.

if you know anything about politics on this side of the pond then you would soon churp a new tune

[Roamy]

Your words give hope Rani, and possibly constitute the other baby step. Maybe you're not as fanatical as I thought, sorry !


In other news closer to my home: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/7805877.stm ...
On the subject of putting one life at higher value than another, how do the 800 killed by ETA compare to the Israeli lives lost to rocket attacks ?
Now should Spain put a wall around the Basque country, bomb the whole of it, or maybe only the 200.000 people who elect the ETA political arm into the Basque parliament?

As Ben says, negotiation (covert or not) is the only way. Maybe a bit of pressure in the right places from the US would also help, as it did with NI.

yes the following is very reassuring Donkey - just the way I want my neighborhood to be.



A car bomb has exploded near the offices of a Basque television station in Bilbao in northern Spain.
The blast happened minutes after the building had been evacuated, following a warning call in the name of the Basque separatist group Eta.
Spanish media said there was structural damage to the building, but no casualties have been reported so far.
Eta's violent four-decade campaign for a sovereign Basque state has cost more than 800 lives.
A Basque police spokesman said Wednesday's blast near the Basque Radio-Television (EiTB) offices happened at 1105 (1005 GMT) and the area around the building had been evacuated and cordoned off.

The blast shattered the EiTB television building's windows
The explosion smashed the building's windows and left a thick pall of smoke hanging over the area.
The suspects are believed to have commandeered a car, because its owner was found tied up in the rural Arrigorriaga area near Bilbao.
Eta called off a ceasefire in June last year.
The Spanish government had already declared the peace process "finished" after a bomb blast by Eta killed two Ecuadorean men at a Madrid airport car park in December 2006.
Last month French police arrested the man believed to be the head of Eta's military operations, Miguel de Garikoitz Aspiazu Rubina, known as "Txeroki".
Spanish authorities accuse him of having ordered the attack on Madrid's Barajas airport.

[BDunnell]

So there's terrorism in Europe. Er... we know.

[Eki]

Obama has already been here, I think he saw the whoe picture both in southern Israel and in Gaza. I trust he saw the picture better than you. Have you ever visited?
BTW that Dresden remark was marked towards you. Such hypocrisy, such blindness. Were you shouting outrage when Hamas was taking the lives of 20 innocent people a day in the name of Allah? How about when Samir Kuntar killed the Haran family's little daughters by smashing their skulls with his gun?
I guess that was self defence in your view,

The bombings of Dresden took estimately 25,000 to over 60,000 lives, so I don't think 20 lives is anywhere comparable to that, especially when over 300 Palestinians have already died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

[steve_spackman]

yes the following is very reassuring Donkey - just the way I want my neighborhood to be.



A car bomb has exploded near the offices of a Basque television station in Bilbao in northern Spain.
The blast happened minutes after the building had been evacuated, following a warning call in the name of the Basque separatist group Eta.
Spanish media said there was structural damage to the building, but no casualties have been reported so far.
Eta's violent four-decade campaign for a sovereign Basque state has cost more than 800 lives.
A Basque police spokesman said Wednesday's blast near the Basque Radio-Television (EiTB) offices happened at 1105 (1005 GMT) and the area around the building had been evacuated and cordoned off.

The blast shattered the EiTB television building's windows
The explosion smashed the building's windows and left a thick pall of smoke hanging over the area.
The suspects are believed to have commandeered a car, because its owner was found tied up in the rural Arrigorriaga area near Bilbao.
Eta called off a ceasefire in June last year.
The Spanish government had already declared the peace process "finished" after a bomb blast by Eta killed two Ecuadorean men at a Madrid airport car park in December 2006.
Last month French police arrested the man believed to be the head of Eta's military operations, Miguel de Garikoitz Aspiazu Rubina, known as "Txeroki".
Spanish authorities accuse him of having ordered the attack on Madrid's Barajas airport.


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[Daniel]

yes the following is very reassuring Donkey - just the way I want my neighborhood to be.



A car bomb has exploded near the offices of a Basque television station in Bilbao in northern Spain.
The blast happened minutes after the building had been evacuated, following a warning call in the name of the Basque separatist group Eta.
Spanish media said there was structural damage to the building, but no casualties have been reported so far.
Eta's violent four-decade campaign for a sovereign Basque state has cost more than 800 lives.
A Basque police spokesman said Wednesday's blast near the Basque Radio-Television (EiTB) offices happened at 1105 (1005 GMT) and the area around the building had been evacuated and cordoned off.

The blast shattered the EiTB television building's windows
The explosion smashed the building's windows and left a thick pall of smoke hanging over the area.
The suspects are believed to have commandeered a car, because its owner was found tied up in the rural Arrigorriaga area near Bilbao.
Eta called off a ceasefire in June last year.
The Spanish government had already declared the peace process "finished" after a bomb blast by Eta killed two Ecuadorean men at a Madrid airport car park in December 2006.
Last month French police arrested the man believed to be the head of Eta's military operations, Miguel de Garikoitz Aspiazu Rubina, known as "Txeroki".
Spanish authorities accuse him of having ordered the attack on Madrid's Barajas airport.

Like you can talk.....

http://photosthatchangedtheworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/9-112.jpg

It needed to be done people.....

[BDunnell]

I'm sure that's 'our fault for being so fuching weak' or something along those lines...

[Easy Drifter]

Daniel are you saying the attack on the World Trade Centre and other US targets was justified?
If so you are a very sick person. If not I apoligize.

Eki: And how many lives did the Blitz take in the UK? Less I know, but not from lack of trying. The day and night bombing of Germany certainly shortened the war and saved the lives of many soldiers on all sides. We all tend to forget that those soldiers had families too.
War of any sort is devastating and hurts many more than the direct military dead and wounded.
Do you think Hitler would have hesitated to use nuclear weapons if Germany had succeeded in producing them? They were working on them and getting close.
The US used the Atomic bomb against Japan with devestating effect against a civilian population. It also brought Japan's surrender. How many lives were saved since the Allies did not have to invade? That is a great unknown but the toll would have been tremendous in an invasion on both sides.
Would the Allies have used the Atomic bomb against Germany if it had been developed in time? The only people who know are long dead.

Eki: What is your position on the attacks on the World Trade Centre?
You probably won't answer as you never answer direct questions but go off on a tangent or ignore them.
I hate war of any sort and long for peace but rolling over and appeasement does not work.

[Daniel]

Daniel are you saying the attack on the World Trade Centre and other US targets was justified?
If so you are a very sick person. If not I apoligize.

I was merely saying that terrorist attacks happen almost everywhere and the US is no exception. Fousto was talking like some guy who is from a place where these sort of things don't happen which is a load of crapola. As for justification? Well that's for another thread.

[Roamy]

absolutely not dunnell - that was our own fault for being alseep at the switch and allowing all these junk people into our country. Hell islams were taking flying lessons in our on country. We still are nowhere in what really needs to be done to protect our country. We should be taking lessons from Israel. Had we been following their airline proceedures these planes would have never been hijacked.

[Daniel]

absolutely not dunnell -

ousto, why do you keep on calling BDunnell dunnell? :confused: That's just fuching impolite to shorten someone's name, it's not nice ousto.

[Daniel]

absolutely not dunnell - that was our own fault for being alseep at the switch and allowing all these junk people into our country. Hell islams were taking flying lessons in our on country. We still are nowhere in what really needs to be done to protect our country. We should be taking lessons from Israel. Had we been following their airline proceedures these planes would have never been hijacked.

I should also add that if you followed Israel's lead on things the native Americans would be still cooped up in reservations and they've be attacking you with rockets and suicide bombers while Canada and Mexico look on thinking "Hmmmm should we take them on? Should we?"

[Roamy]

Easy Drifter:

You have been around here long enough to see that these people just don't get it. They won't ever get it as they are laid down. They would rather trample people at a fuching soccer game than defend themselves - that way no one knows who did it and there is no blame. They sit around and hope the next bus bombing won't be theirs. They walk up and down the street in a daze singing "All you need is Love" while they study the WWII book!

[Roamy]

ousto, why do you keep on calling BDunnell dunnell? :confused: That's just fuching impolite to shorten someone's name, it's not nice ousto.

thanks analiel

[Daniel]

Easy Drifter:

You have been around here long enough to see that these people just don't get it. They won't ever get it as they are laid down. They would rather trample people at a fuching soccer game than defend themselves - that way no one knows who did it and there is no blame. They sit around and hope the next bus bombing won't be theirs. They walk up and down the street in a daze singing "All you need is Love" while they study the WWII book!

usto, You're hilarious. Save something for new years lest you be passed out on the floor by the time the clock hits midnight :laugh:

[Tomi]

Eki: What is your position on the attacks on the World Trade Centre?

Whats your position? What do you think make a few Saudis to do a such thing, or have you ever heard about some study done by independent source in us who try to find out why?

[BDunnell]

Easy Drifter:

You have been around here long enough to see that these people just don't get it. They won't ever get it as they are laid down. They would rather trample people at a fuching soccer game than defend themselves - that way no one knows who did it and there is no blame. They sit around and hope the next bus bombing won't be theirs. They walk up and down the street in a daze singing "All you need is Love" while they study the WWII book!

Yes, this is how we managed to end years of (US-funded) violence in Northern Ireland, isn't it? Your opinions, as ever, are laughable.

If you recall, the ceasefire in Northern Ireland came about when the factions involved finally came to the negotiating table. The same outcome would not have been achieved had successive British governments of both main parties sent the RAF to bomb those factions in retaliation.

I would add that despite the countless attacks on the British mainland during that time, people didn't allow it to change their way of life, rather than existing in a constant, paranoid panic — behaviour that I think is to be admired.

[Camelopard]

Yes, this is how we managed to end years of (US-funded) violence in Northern Ireland, isn't it? Your opinions, as ever, are laughable.


Hey don't you know that terrorism is ok when it is backed by elements in the US, the IRA and the bombing of of cubana flight 455 are both very good examples of this.

[Camelopard]

Many Palestinians live within Israel's borders peaceably.

where they are treated as second class citizens, even jewish groups agree with that statement.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439741.htm

"Israel's discrimination between Jewish settlers and Palestinians in the West Bank is increasingly reminiscent of white South Africa's apartheid system, an Israeli human rights group said.
Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territory "have created a situation of institutionalised discrimination and segregation," the Association for Civil Rights in Israel said.
"The discrimination in services, budgets and access to natural resources between the two groups in the same territory constitutes a stark violation of the principle of equality, which in many and increasing ways [of] the apartheid regime that was applied in South Africa," ACRI said."

[i]Below: Excerpts from an article by Uzi Ornan, published the Israeli daily Ha'aretz 17 May 1991 ( Hebrew ):

"It is impossible to turn one's back on reality and deny that the State of Israel is not, likewise, an Apartheid state, and that as a result of this, Israeli democracy - which all its leaders and political pundits swear by - is being perverted, if not destroyed. This Apartheid has been entrenched in a system of laws, regulations and practices which govern the operation of state institutions. What characterizes most of those discriminatory laws that have been legislated in various Knesset is that on the surface, they do not appear to be discriminatory. However, a more in-depth analysis of some of the basic ones quickly reveals the extent to which they discriminate between "Jews" and "non-Jews". By studying them one cannot fail to reach a conclusion, which cannot but be embarrassing to many of us: namely, that Israel is an Apartheid state, and the Apartheid not only manifests itself socially, but that it is also embedded in the legal system"



http://www.iahushua.com/Zion/zionrac04.html

"Some 800,000 people in Israel proper are not Jews: Most of them are Muslim but there are also thriving Christian Arab communities in Israel. For many years after the establishment of Israel they were subjected to harsh military control. Much of their land was confiscated by the State and handed to Jewish organisations for exclusive Jewish settlement. They have been subject to massacres, destitution and humiliation. While they enjoy, with Jewish Israelis, the right to vote, they are discriminated against both through law and in practice.

Approximately 92% of the surface of the State of Israel within the Green Line is for all purposes closed to Palestinians who are second-class citizens in Israel. They may neither legally live on such land, nor rent or cultivate it. A direct effect of these policies is that native non-Jewish citizens of Israel are in practice denied residence and membership rights in the collective settlements, kibbutzim."

[Daniel]

Hey don't you know that terrorism is ok when it is backed by elements in the US, the IRA and the bombing of of cubana flight 455 are both very good examples of this.

Perhaps the Arab world should try and overthrow the Israeli govt. The US can identify with that :)

[Camelopard]

I was merely saying that terrorist attacks happen almost everywhere and the US is no exception. Fousto was talking like some guy who is from a place where these sort of things don't happen which is a load of crapola.

Least of all when it is committed by one of fuosto's own:

http://www.oklahomacitynationalmemorial.org/

[Camelopard]

Or one of Israel's own, if this wasn't true it would read like an April fools day joke. any comment on this one rani, was/is he a terrorist or just a proud zionist freedom fighter?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/holocaust-jew-accused-of-war-crimes/2005/07/10/1120934125780.html

"The case of Solomon Morel, 86, is the only one in Holocaust history where a Jew stands accused of war crimes against Germans.

It has perplexed legal minds in both countries. Poland says genocide is genocide whether a Jew or a Nazi committed it, while many Israelis see rough justice in the 1500 German deaths for which Mr Morel is alleged to be responsible.

Now the Israeli Government has said that Mr Morel will not be sent back to stand trial in Poland under any circumstances."


"John Sack, the Jewish-American author of An Eye for an Eye, claims Mr Morel, as commandant of Swietochlowice Camp, morphed into the kind of monster that would have been welcomed by the Gestapo. "His favourite method of killing prisoners was hacking the skull of his victims with a wooden leg of a chair,"

[BDunnell]

Personally, I don't think that sort of example is any more relevant to the policies of recent Israeli governments than a case of a Nazi war criminal is to the Germany of today.

[Easy Drifter]

My position is clear. Terrorism is terrorism and is wrong. Retaliation to terrorism is not. Appeasement is wrong and never works.
Very few countries are exempt from systematic discrimination including Canada. It should be our shame.
Our treatment of our 1st Nations People was and continues to be deplorable. Read the 'Red Line' by Mark Bonokowski in the Toronto Sun in a recent 15 part story concentrating mostly on current conditions.
Out treatment of Chinese immigrant workers in the 19th and early 20th centuries was terrible.
Our treatment of people of Japanese extraction, including Cdn. born citizens, during WW2 was disgusting.
Canada's reaction to Jewish refugees before, during and immediately after WW2 was totally wrong.
How are migrant workers treated in most of Europe?
How are whites treated in Zimbawe?
Israel is by no means perfect but its' treatment of the Palestinians is far better than minorities are treated in much of the world including many countries in the UN who constantly condem her. That does not make Israel's treatment right but neither does terrorism.
Dissension in Iran and China, to name just two, often results in death.
I tend to support Israel but I can see and admit to wrong on both sides.
Many on this forum (on both sides) should sit back and see the many shades of Grey and not every thing in absolute Black and White.

As an aside my Border Clan Scots ancestors were deported to Ireland because they caused so much s--t along the English border. From there they went to either Australia or Canada. Australia and New Zealand cannot be very proud of the way they treated their aboriginal people either.

[BDunnell]

My position is clear. Terrorism is terrorism and is wrong. Retaliation to terrorism is not. Appeasement is wrong and never works.

But different people have very different definitions of what constitutes appeasement — one of the 'shades of grey' you mention later in your post, surely? And you speak of retaliation as though it is always, automatically, the best option.



Very few countries are exempt from systematic discrimination including Canada. It should be our shame.

I don't agree, because I don't think that countries should exist in shame for ever more. They should not forget the misdeeds of the past, but there should be no need for continual shame.



Many on this forum (on both sides) should sit back and see the many shades of Grey and not every thing in absolute Black and White.

I agree, but as I said, this should also be applied to comments such as 'Terrorism is terrorism and is wrong. Retaliation to terrorism is not. Appeasement is wrong and never works'. Seems pretty 'black and white' to me...

[Easy Drifter]

Unfortunately our systematic discrimination against our native population continues to this day. Less, yes but it continues within our Govt. agencies as well as generally. We also have protests, not always peaceful, but so far very little of what could be described as terrorisnm, by our native people. (1st Nations)
If you have the time and can access Canoe.ca or the Toronto Sun Web site I think Bonokowski's articles are still available.
I admit to being pro Israel but do see right on the Palestinian side, just not Hamas.

[Camelopard]

Personally, I don't think that sort of example is any more relevant to the policies of recent Israeli governments than a case of a Nazi war criminal is to the Germany of today.

I think it is perfectly valid as it shows the double standards of the jewish state when it comes to dealing with terrorists like Menachem Begin, the members of Irgun, the Stern Group and people like Solomon Morel.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I love the attack on Israel as if it is the only nation on earth that ever discriminated against anyone. The average arab living within the borders of Israel may not have some of the rights they should and that is wrong, but they live a higher quality of life than the Palestitinians in the West Bank or certainly Gaza. For anyone to then turn around and say Gaza's issues now are the fault totally of Israel is to ignore that blind reality that Hamas refuses to quit stirring up S#it with the Israeli's and lobbing rockets into Israel.

To try and defend that is ludircious. Of course...I have come to expect no less from some of the more delusional thinkers who feel this terrorism is justified while condemning George W Bush for his botched war with Iraq. That war that by the way has created a new democracy of sorts and has after a surge (decried by all the "experts") that actually has allowed almost all of Iraq to be become under the control of their own government and will allow the US to get the hell out of there.

[Rani]

^ fousto, the reality is, if a few weak rockets were falling on your head, you'd be hightailing somewhere else the same way the hardasses of Beersheba are doing right now. even though their condition is in no way comparable with the mass murder inflicted upon Gaza at the moment.
When have you been in any condition similar to the people of the Negev to judge any of them?
I guess you start your morning eating a peace of toast, revelling in the echoes of mortars shrieking by your neighbourhood. You round the crater in the sidewalk as you calmly walk to your 'convertible' which lost all its windows in a blast yesterday. You hum along to the sirens of the ambulances, passing you on your way to work where you spend half the day in the protected basement.




Easy Drifter:

You have been around here long enough to see that these people just don't get it. They won't ever get it as they are laid down. They would rather trample people at a fuching soccer game than defend themselves - that way no one knows who did it and there is no blame. They sit around and hope the next bus bombing won't be theirs. They walk up and down the street in a daze singing "All you need is Love" while they study the WWII book!

Sad but true in my mind. I see a glimpse of Neville Chamberlain in a lot of views here. People don't seem to understand that currently, the only way to deal with Hamas is by force. When they're ready to sit down and talk, We'll join eagerly. For now, Israel has a moral obligation to defend its people against a force that wishes to kill them. As seen all through history, even the most 'moral' of nations had to resort to fighting at some stage, all a question of geographic location and what your neighbours are like. While other nations bombed the hell out of each other indiscriminately, saying afterwards it was neccessary (to which I don't neccesarily object), I believe Israel is in the right for attacking Hamas. I am truly sorry that Hamas uses civilian population to hide behind, cynically using their people as human shields, but as a 'shades of gray seer', I don't believe their civilian lives are worth more than our civilian lives (not the other way round, either).
I am not a fanatic, and neither is Israeli government. It can't be stressed enough that the major obstacle between the current situation and peace is Hamas' intolerance of Israel existing. Israel has shown before its willingness to bury the hatchet and talk with former terrorists turned politicians (google Black September for more info). Hamas is not willing to accept Israel while trying to destroy it, it's only natural that they suffer the consequences.

[Camelopard]

I love the attack on Israel as if it is the only nation on earth that ever discriminated against anyone. The average arab living within the borders of Israel may not have some of the rights they should and that is wrong, but they live a higher quality of life than the Palestitinians in the West Bank or certainly Gaza. For anyone to then turn around and say Gaza's issues now are the fault totally of Israel is to ignore that blind reality that Hamas refuses to quit stirring up S#it with the Israeli's and lobbing rockets into Israel.

To try and defend that is ludircious. Of course...I have come to expect no less from some of the more delusional thinkers who feel this terrorism is justified while condemning George W Bush for his botched war with Iraq. That war that by the way has created a new democracy of sorts and has after a surge (decried by all the "experts") that actually has allowed almost all of Iraq to be become under the control of their own government and will allow the US to get the hell out of there.

Ummm, I have never said that terrorism is justified, although some here seem to think it is justified if it is helping to obtain their own wanted results, ie, the bombing of the King David Hotel by zionist terrorist groups as they were at the time.
The bombing of the cubana flight 455 by cuban exiles living in the US. Numerous attempts on castros life, have you seen "638 Ways to Kill Castro"? Very informative, quite a few of these attempts had the backing of the CIA and FBI, including those responsible for the deaths of 73 people when Cubana 455 went down due to a bomb planted by Cuban exiles.

[Eki]

They walk up and down the street in a daze singing "All you need is Love" while they study the WWII book!
For you the WWII might have been the good old days since it didn't touch the mainland USA, but most Europeans remember the death and destruction it brought to Europe. And if they study the WWII, they learn that war is not the way to go for anyone. Everybody loses in a war, there must be better ways.

[Daniel]

For you the WWII might have been the good old days since it didn't touch the mainland USA, but most Europeans remember the death and destruction it brought to Europe. And if they study the WWII, they learn that war is not the way to go for anyone. Everybody loses in a war, there must be better ways.

I may be wrong Eki, but isn't war something that happens to other people?

[Eki]

I may be wrong Eki, but isn't war something that happens to other people?

It sometime is, but sometime it may happen to you too. And the more eager you're going to or joining a war, the more likely it will happen to you.

[steve_spackman]

Ummm, I have never said that terrorism is justified, although some here seem to think it is justified if it is helping to obtain their own wanted results, ie, the bombing of the King David Hotel by zionist terrorist groups as they were at the time.
The bombing of the cubana flight 455 by cuban exiles living in the US. Numerous attempts on castros life, have you seen "638 Ways to Kill Castro"? Very informative, quite a few of these attempts had the backing of the CIA and FBI, including those responsible for the deaths of 73 people when Cubana 455 went down due to a bomb planted by Cuban exiles.

yes seems to me that the US is the state sponsor of terror acts....they just think that they do this kinda thing for those famed words called freedom and democracy yet have no clue as to what they mean.

[Mark in Oshawa]

For you the WWII might have been the good old days since it didn't touch the mainland USA, but most Europeans remember the death and destruction it brought to Europe. And if they study the WWII, they learn that war is not the way to go for anyone. Everybody loses in a war, there must be better ways.

Gee Eki...so I guess the Finnish Army has been disbanded? I guess the best way for the Finn's to have handled the Russians invading in the early 40's was to just roll over and play dead?

Wars happen when one side or the other is so unreasonable the only alternative is use of force. It is the LAST alternative in a dispute between two nations but in the case of Israel, the one side is quite willing to hide by civilians ON THEIR OWN SIDE while launching rockets on a state that they think doesn't deserve to exist. Israel has been at more than one peace table and was evident in the Camp David Accord with Egypt, more than willing to make peace with a former enemy. I have yet to see the Palestianians, whether Fatah or Hamas make and hold up their end of the bargain in any peace treaty with Israel. Hasn't happened.......

[TOgoFASTER]

Ummm, I have never said that terrorism is justified, although some here seem to think it is justified if it is helping to obtain their own wanted results, ie, the bombing of the King David Hotel by zionist terrorist groups as they were at the time.
The bombing of the cubana flight 455 by cuban exiles living in the US. Numerous attempts on castros life, have you seen "638 Ways to Kill Castro"? Very informative, quite a few of these attempts had the backing of the CIA and FBI, including those responsible for the deaths of 73 people when Cubana 455 went down due to a bomb planted by Cuban exiles.


Good point overall.

Castro did screw up the sweet deal Batista and his cronies had with the mob.
To bad it never trickled down to the people who wore those footprints heavily.

[Eki]

Gee Eki...so I guess the Finnish Army has been disbanded? I guess the best way for the Finn's to have handled the Russians invading in the early 40's was to just roll over and play dead?


Finnish army is there for just in case, like a fire insurance. It doesn't go on picking fights and playing with matches like the US.

And for your information, Russians didn't invade Finland in the early 40s, it was Finland who invaded the Soviet Union in the early 40s. The Soviet Union invaded Finland in the late 30s. And they did invade only after they had offered to trade some Finnish land near Leningrad to Soviet land further away from Leningrad. The Finns bluntly refused without trying to get a better deal than a war. Maybe the Soviets would have been willing to give more or better land in exchange to get the buffer zone around Leningrad they wanted. Who knows. The Soviet Union wasn't innocent but Finland wasn't probably totally innocent either.

[Easy Drifter]

And in Afghanistan the 100 strong Finnish contingent stays in a safe area and lets others deal with the Taliban. Of course, the ones who try and deal with the terrorist Taliban take the casulities. The US, the Brits and the Cdns.
Mind you the terrorists will not stand up to these troops in a firefight but plant IED's contrary to the Geneva Convention and the useless UN.
The innocent Taliban who we should negotiate with. Trouble is they are too busy planting bombs, beheading schoolteachers and throwing acid into the faces of schoolchildren to negotiate. That is when they are not using innocent villagers as human shields.
By the way Eki, have you ever answered a direct question straight out in your life? You sure never have on any thread I have seen.

[Eki]

And in Afghanistan the 100 strong Finnish contingent stays in a safe area and lets others deal with the Taliban.
True. Just like the Germans and the Japanese, we don't send our troops abroad to fight, we only send them to help. I guess the Finns, just like the Germans and the Japanese, learnt from WWII that we only fight within our own borders and only when it's necessary.

[Tomi]

And in Afghanistan the 100 strong Finnish contingent stays in a safe area and lets others deal with the Taliban. Of course, the ones who try and deal with the terrorist Taliban take the casulities. The US, the Brits and the Cdns.

Lol, next time you have an election try to vote for someone who dont take you to fight other countries wars.

[Camelopard]

Israel has shown before its willingness to bury the hatchet and talk with former terrorists turned politicians

Pot calling kettle black, "Menachem Begin’s picture, that of a wanted terrorist, was posted in all British prisons and offices in Palestine."


August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 13,1947. Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

1947 -- 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.

The first act of air piracy in the history of civil aviation was carried out by Israel, in Dec. 1954, when a civilian Syrian airliner was forced down in Tel Aviv and its passengers and crew held for days, despite international condemnation.

In 1968, Israeli commandos blew up 13 civilian airliners at Beirut airport in Lebanon.

The first deliberate shooting down a civilian airliner was carried out by Israel, when a Libyan airliner was shot down by Israeli jet fighters over Sinai, in Feb. 1973, on the direct orders of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, killing all 107 of its passengers and the entire French crew.

[BDunnell]

Lol, next time you have an election try to vote for someone who dont take you to fight other countries wars.

:up:

The French and the Germans have often been criticised for not making a sufficient contribution in Iraq and Afghanistan, but their governments have merely been doing something politicians are often castigated for, namely following public opinion. I think the 'wider public interest' justification of being involved has been overplayed by those in favour of both conflicts.

[Camelopard]

Israel has shown before its willingness to bury the hatchet and talk with former terrorists turned politicians

Pot calling kettle black:


"Menachem Begin’s picture, that of a wanted terrorist, was posted in all British prisons and offices in Palestine."

[Camelopard]

Mind you the terrorists will not stand up to these troops in a firefight but plant IED's

Guess they learnt how well it worked for the zionist terrorist groups:

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

[Tomi]

:up:

The French and the Germans have often been criticised for not making a sufficient contribution in Iraq and Afghanistan, but their governments have merely been doing something politicians are often castigated for, namely following public opinion. I think the 'wider public interest' justification of being involved has been overplayed by those in favour of both conflicts.

Right, and you who have been living in Germany know for sure what the public opinion about war is in general, photoshop stuff is not enough evidence for them, thats for sure.

[Easy Drifter]

Eki: Yeah, they are a lot of help. Same as the others. Hiding in a relatively quiet area letting the Cdn., Brits and US troops get killed trying to get rid of the terrorists. This is not peacekeeping. It is a war. Wow, soldiers??? who won't fight. Sent to a war zone. Brilliant. Let others do the work and take the casulaties.
Tomi: We did. We threw out the Liberal Party who committed Canada to Afghanistan. We now have a Conservative Govt., under Stephen Harper, who is giving our troops the equipment needed to defeat the terrorists after the Liberals decimated our military.

[Tomi]

Tomi: We did. We threw out the Liberal Party who committed Canada to Afghanistan. We now have a Conservative Govt., under Stephen Harper, who is giving our troops the equipment needed to defeat the terrorists after the Liberals decimated our military.

You missunderstood, the idea is to put people in charge who dont take you to others conflicts before, not after they already are there.

Actually to me this is the only criteria here when im voting for president, the rest is not so important.

[BDunnell]

Right, and you who have been living in Germany know for sure what the public opinion about war is in general, photoshop stuff is not enough evidence for them, thats for sure.

This is rather a side-issue to the thread, but Germany has become a highly pacifist country — look at the national soul-searching that took place before it even committed forces to the conflicts in the Balkans — and it only re-elected Gerhard Schröder in 2003 on the basis that he promised not to send German troops to Iraq, though he had in fact provided large numbers of troops to Afghanistan.

[Tomi]

This is rather a side-issue to the thread, but Germany has become a highly pacifist country — look at the national soul-searching that took place before it even committed forces to the conflicts in the Balkans — and it only re-elected Gerhard Schröder in 2003 on the basis that he promised not to send German troops to Iraq, though he had in fact provided large numbers of troops to Afghanistan.

yes side issue, but good for people here to know.

[SOD]

this completly rubbishes rani's point about israelis not cheering when their enemies are killed:

I guess the sight of hundreds of womens and childrens heads crushed is what they get off on. :rolleyes:


"In Sderot, a working-class border town that has been bombarded by thousands of Hamas rockets in recent years, residents said they haven't been this satisfied in a long time. On Wednesday, they cheered to each sound of distant explosions from Israeli airstrikes."

"Along the Gaza border, Israeli bystanders and police officers stopped their vehicles on the side of the road Thursday to watch Israeli helicopters, drones and fighter jets strike targets in Gaza, cheering with each deafening explosion."

http://www.newsmax.com/international/ml_israel_mood/2009/01/01/167036.html

[Valve Bounce]

For you the WWII might have been the good old days since it didn't touch the mainland USA, but most Europeans remember the death and destruction it brought to Europe. And if they study the WWII, they learn that war is not the way to go for anyone. Everybody loses in a war, there must be better ways.

You are right there - it was also dreadful in Hong Kong. I can still remember the whisling sound of shells going overhead, and the shudder of the entire house when the bombs blast in the mountain behind our house.

[Easy Drifter]

I didn't misunderstand Tomi. The only political party in Canada that wants us to immediately withdraw our troops is the very left wing NDP, often referred to as the Dippers. Their attitude is that the military should be social workers.
They ended up poor 4th in popular vote in our last election in Oct.
The point is the situation in Afghanistn is a war not a tea party.
Oh sorry, I forgot the 5th place Green Party that did not elect a single member.
Nice going SOD (it). Your own post points out that the working class Israelis had been hit by thousands of Hamas rockets in the last few years.
They are supposed to weep when the terrorists get retribution?
Here is a point blank question to Tomi, Eki,and Sod (it).
Do you want NATO to leave Afghanistan and let the Taliban to take over?
There are only two possible answers. Yes or No.

I do not expect any of you to answer the question that way, if you reply at all. If you reply it will be more pure unadulterated BS.
Happy New Year.

[SOD]

well easy drifer, you completely misinterpreted what I posted, I was pointing out that Israelis rejoice and cheer when their enemies are killed, contrary to what the israelis on this board are telling us.

secondly, you should go back and educate yourself about the overthrow of the Afghanistan government in the mid 1970s and find out what brought about the taliban and the other al qaeda. if that is too difficult for you, please point where on the north atlantic, afghanistan actually resides and what is the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation doing there! george w Bush , stephen harper, gordon brown, sarkozy are no alexander the great, and neither is barack Obama.

[Easy Drifter]

No I didn't Sod (it).
I know the history of what happened in Afghanistan and the total uselessnes of the UN.
I also note that as usual you will not answer a direct question.

[SOD]

the same taliban who were invited to texas to discuss an oil pipeline!

if they're good enough for texas, then they're good enough for you.


(as a side note , I just cannot let it slip that you have a hard time writing my name. That is why my signature is what it is, to help those who cannot pronounce my name correctly.)

[Camelopard]

OK Easy Drifter, a direct question for you. Do you think that Irgun and The Stern Group were terrorists? Do you think Menachem Begin was a terrorist? Do you think it was right that zionists used truck bombs, electronically exploded bombs and sent letter bombs to people they regarded as their enemies, although at the time their enimies were the legitimate government in Palestine?

And no, I don't support the taliban and don't agree with the use of the above forms of 'warfare' and also don't support the use of Land Mines. Just as an aside, did you know that the bombs that the yanks dropped on Laos in the seventies are still killing and maiming people today? More tonnage was dropped on Laos in the seventies than on the entire Germany during WW2.

[Roamy]

1. the pales elected a terrorist organization to lead them
2. Hamas rained rockets on israel
3. The Hamas leader rubbed it in israel's face
4. The Hamas leader was so rude he used is family as human shields
5. Israel took them all out
6. Great day for israel !!

[Eki]

Eki: Yeah, they are a lot of help. Same as the others. Hiding in a relatively quiet area letting the Cdn., Brits and US troops get killed trying to get rid of the terrorists.
What I meant was that they are there to help the locals to rebuild their country, not to help the Americans kill them and destroy it more. If any Finnish politicians sent Finnish troops to fight for the Americans, it would be a political suicide. I should have guessed you wouldn't get the point.

[Eki]

Do you want NATO to leave Afghanistan and let the Taliban to take over?
There are only two possible answers. Yes or No.

Actually it's none of my business, but IMO NATO could leave and let the locals decide who should run their country. If the Taliban will be more popular than the others, then be it. It's the democratic way isn't it? At least it's not democratic IMO when a foreign country tells me who may and who may not run my country.

[harsha]

atleast Israel had the balls to attack,something i wish the Indian Government does too

[Eki]

Actually it's none of my business, but IMO NATO could leave and let the locals decide who should run their country. If the Taliban will be more popular than the others, then be it. It's the democratic way isn't it? At least it's not democratic IMO when a foreign country tells me who may and who may not run my country.
Even if the locals may be the root of all evil in any civil war, the interfering foreigners are often the trunk, branches and the leaves. For example, in the Finnish Civil War in 1918 over 30,000 Finns died. Germans and voluntary Swedes gave arms, troops and military training to the "White" side and voluntary Russians gave arms, troops and military training to the "Red" side. I'm quite sure that if the Germans, Swedes and the Russians would have stayed out of it, a lot less Finns had died. The "White" side won and executed about 10,000 and starved to death over 10,000 "Reds" in prison camps after the war and banned the Finnish Communist Party. 21 years later Stalin could then tell his people that they were going to "liberate the Finnish working class from the oppression of capitalists and fascists" and start the Winter War. Soviets, believing they were the good guys and helping the oppressed Finns, killed about 25,000 more Finns.

[Tomi]

Here is a point blank question to Tomi, Eki,and Sod (it). Do you want NATO to leave Afghanistan and let the Taliban to take over?
There are only two possible answers. Yes or No.
I do not expect any of you to answer the question that way, if you reply at all. If you reply it will be more pure unadulterated BS.
Happy New Year.

Lol, you are really amusing, my answer is i dont really care, if you find it a nice thing to send people to get killed in Afganistan, its ok with me, but why then wing about casulties on a web site or complain if others are not that stupid.

[Rani]

Actually it's none of my business, but IMO NATO could leave and let the locals decide who should run their country. If the Taliban will be more popular than the others, then be it. It's the democratic way isn't it? At least it's not democratic IMO when a foreign country tells me who may and who may not run my country.
What are you talking about?
Do you really think the Taliban gives a ___ what the local's think?
The only word that counts is one that comes out of an ak47 armed mouth. That's why it's good NATO is there, to fight the local's fight.
I can understand where you come from as someone who seemingly hasn't seen anything other than an organized democratic country, but sadly your opinion just doesn't stand the test of reality

[Camelopard]

OK Easy Drifter, a direct question for you. Do you think that Irgun and The Stern Group were terrorists? Do you think Menachem Begin was a terrorist? Do you think it was right that zionists used truck bombs, electronically exploded bombs and sent letter bombs to people they regarded as their enemies, although at the time their enimies were the legitimate government in Palestine?


Well Rani, seeing that Easy Drifter doesn't want to answer a direct question (even though he is very quick to criticise others for not replying in a direct manner!), I'll put the same questions as above to you, care to give us your thoughts?

[Camelopard]

Some more info for you:

"Soon after the end of World War II, there were three basic para-military Zionist organizations in Palestine, working against the Arab people, with the specific purpose of driving it out of Palestine. These were the Haganah, the Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang.

Before the British Mandate, the Jewish settlers had formed a group of mounted armed watchmen called "Hashomar" and with the advent of the British Mandate, it became the Haganah (Defense). With a membership of 60,000 Zionist Jews, the Haganah had a field army of 16,000 trained men and a unit called the Palmach, which was a full-time force, numbering about 6000.

The Irgun Zvai Leumi included between 3000 and 5000 armed terrorists, and grew out of the Haganah and its Palmach branch in 1933. The Irgun was not ready to obey the Jewish Agency which sought to dilute the terror of the Haganah in order not to lose its respectability.

In 1939, one of Irgun's commanding officers, Abraham Stern, left the parent organization and formed the Stern Gang, numbering some 200 to 300 dangerous fanatics."

A time line for you:

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.

Any response Rani? were they terrorists or not? Come on give us a direct answer!

[Eki]

What are you talking about?
Do you really think the Taliban gives a ___ what the local's think?
The only word that counts is one that comes out of an ak47 armed mouth. That's why it's good NATO is there, to fight the local's fight.
I can understand where you come from as someone who seemingly hasn't seen anything other than an organized democratic country, but sadly your opinion just doesn't stand the test of reality
The other side (Northern Alliance, various warlords, tribes, etc.) has AK47s too.

[yodasarmpit]

atleast Israel had the balls to attack,something i wish the Indian Government does too
Be glad that your government hasn't retaliated, unless of course you would like to see India and Pakistan turned into a nuclear waste ground.

[DonJippo]

Do you really think the Taliban gives a ___ what the local's think?

I thought Talibans are local in Afghanistan?

[SOD]

1. the pales elected a terrorist organization to lead them
2. Hamas rained rockets on israel
3. The Hamas leader rubbed it in israel's face
4. The Hamas leader was so rude he used is family as human shields
5. Israel took them all out
6. Great day for israel !!

not only is your 'timeline' or sequence of events incorrect, but you're smoking something if you think that Israel is safer because of its mass slaughter of the Palestinians.

[Eki]

4. The Hamas leader was so rude he used is family as human shields

:laugh: So he should have lived away from his family just in case Israel wanted to murder him?

Seriously, I think Israel should have waited for a better opportunity and sent a sniper instead of bombs.

The Israelis can take over a whole airplane in Uganda without killing all the hostages, but they can't kill a Hamas leader without killing his family as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe

[Rani]

:laugh: So he should have lived away from his family just in case Israel wanted to murder him?

Seriously, I think Israel should have waited for a better opportunity and sent a sniper instead of bombs.

The Israelis can take over a whole airplane in Uganda without killing all the hostages, but they can't kill a Hamas leader without killing his family as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe
What a top military expert you are.

[Rani]

Well Rani, seeing that Easy Drifter doesn't want to answer a direct question (even though he is very quick to criticise others for not replying in a direct manner!), I'll put the same questions as above to you, care to give us your thoughts?
We've been through this before. If you want to you're more than welcome to dig up the thread. BTW my invitation for you to come to Israel still stands, you can even crash on my couch if you'd like. I promise to wake you and we could run to the bomb shelter together whenever the sirens begin to howl.

[steve_spackman]

Guess they learnt how well it worked for the zionist terrorist groups:

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

The decree that created the state of Israel in 1948 also provided for the creation of a Palestinian state. However, all of the rights the Palestinians might have been given were trashed by Israel and as of today Palestinians simply do not exist; it took them almost 60 years to "be allowed" to have an airport but then Israel bombed it. It is simple enough: its F-16s and Apache helicopters against stone throwers; and the "justification" that Hamas fires rockets at Israel is groundless; they simply do not have the cruel competence Israel has so many times displayed in so many bloodbaths, from other refugee camps, in dropping cluster bombs in Lebanon, and all the rest that is yet to come as the world sleeps over the New Year festivities... And let us not forget that Hamas was "created", encouraged to rise, by Israel, in her efforts to silence the Fatah; Hamas is an Israeli creation; and the media bows to these barbarous acts and behaviour; anyone who dares speak against Israel and the carnage will be branded "anti-semitic"; will one day a film be made about this and screened to everyone so that we can learn of these atrocities? How can a people who are so competent at reminding the world of the Holocaust and the many atrocities then committed - in dozens of films and hundreds of books - do so much worse to children, be it by bombing them out of existence, or simply maiming them beyond repair - as well as keeping them in their hideous prisons - yes, children - with no apparent reason and no right do defense? It is unfortunate but Israel has made it very clear: peace is not the goal, but the death of all Palestinians.

[steve_spackman]

1. the pales elected a terrorist organization to lead them
2. Hamas rained rockets on israel
3. The Hamas leader rubbed it in israel's face
4. The Hamas leader was so rude he used is family as human shields
5. Israel took them all out
6. Great day for israel !!


As the responses show, there are and have been voices that do and have protested Israeli humanitarian crimes and US collusion in its ongoing thuggery. The question remains, why officialdom in the United States remains so cowardly and supine in the shadow of Israeli war crimes? It is not enough to point the finger at a Zionist cabal that has subverted the press and penetrated key junctures in government --- although all that is true enough. Nor is it enough to point to a propaganda of victimhood that seek to blackmail criticism while immunizing barbarity. It is not enough to blame the "Jewish Lobby" for its successes. A people whose moral sense had not been dulled into oblivion could not be held hostage by such machinations. A people whose collective intelligence had not been dumbed down to the level of a cow would easily see through the distortions paraded as self-evident fact on the pages of our most august newspapers. So what happened America? Is this the bitter fruit of your exceptionalism, self-righteousness, and anti-intellectualism, or is it just plain ol' sloth and obesity slurping at the trough of tuffness? Maybe it is all of those things, maybe none. But I do know that America is at war with itself; it just doesn't know it yet.

[steve_spackman]

We've been through this before. If you want to you're more than welcome to dig up the thread. BTW my invitation for you to come to Israel still stands, you can even crash on my couch if you'd like. I promise to wake you and we could run to the bomb shelter together whenever the sirens begin to howl.

least we forget that the Jewish religion developed from a sacrificial temple cult into a eloborate code for daily living, which became the basis for communal identity. That says that to this day Israel is actually not a country merely a piece of land used by a cult, yet thinks it has the moral rights to be a country

[yodasarmpit]

We've been through this before. If you want to you're more than welcome to dig up the thread. BTW my invitation for you to come to Israel still stands, you can even crash on my couch if you'd like. I promise to wake you and we could run to the bomb shelter together whenever the sirens begin to howl.

Funnily enough I plan to visit Israel, hopefully this year, as I think it's such an interesting place with so much history to offer.
It's somewhere I've always wanted to see.

[Easy Drifter]

I am not afraid to reply. I just needed some sleep.
Yes, they were terrorists. I do not dispute that.
What that has to do with today I do not understand.
Israel was a creation of the United Nations, which in those days was an effective body.
Eki: The Cdn. troops and the Brits and US are also rebuilding the country as well as fighting the Taliban, who even Eric Margolis, who is against NATO involement, states are now largely composed of non Afghanis but what are essentialy Islamic mercenaries.
There will be no point in rebuilding Afghanistan if the Taliban are allowed to regain control. They are fanatical zealots who consider women inferior creatures. Do you support that?
My use of the word Islamic is not a slam at Islam or the Muslim world. The vast majority of Muslims and all followers of Islam are quite sensible and willing to live in peace with others.
In the context I use 'Islamic' it refers to the fanatical psuedo religous group of extremists. The Koran preaches peace.
Almost all religions have their extremists.

I also note that my direct questions have not been answered with a yes or no as I expected.

[Tomi]

I also note that my direct questions have not been answered with a yes or no as I expected.

Have you stopped beating your wife allready, yes or no.

[Easy Drifter]

A typically childish retort.

[steve_spackman]

We've been through this before. If you want to you're more than welcome to dig up the thread. BTW my invitation for you to come to Israel still stands, you can even crash on my couch if you'd like. I promise to wake you and we could run to the bomb shelter together whenever the sirens begin to howl.


who wants to visit a country thats based and founded on nothing but lies??? Not me

[Tomi]

A typically childish retort.

True, simular to your so called direct questions, that have no yes or no answer.

[Daniel]

We've been through this before. If you want to you're more than welcome to dig up the thread. BTW my invitation for you to come to Israel still stands, you can even crash on my couch if you'd like. I promise to wake you and we could run to the bomb shelter together whenever the sirens begin to howl.

Or you could come here and stay with us. We have this thing we do where we don't bomb our neighbours and in return they don't shoot rockets at us :)

[Rani]

who wants to visit a country thats based and founded on nothing but lies??? Not me
Just as well, I didn't invite you. :s pinhead:

[steve_spackman]

Just as well, I didn't invite you. :s pinhead:

so you admit that its based and founded on a pack of lies??

[Rani]

Or you could come here and stay with us. We have this thing we do where we don't bomb our neighbours and in return they don't shoot rockets at us :)
You sure have nicer neighbours, I'll give you that much.

[BDunnell]

who wants to visit a country thats based and founded on nothing but lies??? Not me

But it exists now and there's not a lot that can be done about it. The fact that some deny this, such as Hamas, does not help the current situation.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mr. Spackman...You always are so logical when you have a good chapter of Mein Kampf read before you get out of bed?

What rot!

Israel has as much right to exist as Saudi Arabia or Iraq or the UK for that matter. It is only not recognized by the countries of the Arab world who cannot stand that a country with no oil in their midst has a healthier populace, has an economy that isnt' subsidized by the selling of a finite resource and has managed to do what the Arab's who lived there after the first time the Jews were pushed out of their holy land couldn't do.

Israel may have some faults like any democracy, but clearly sir you are obviously a little anti-semitic and deranged....

[jim mcglinchey]

They might not have oil reserves but they've have a thriving arms industry. Ranked 5th in the world with a turnover of $1.7 billion, thats not bad for a country with a population of 6.4 million.

[Hondo]

There are very few countries in the world today that have not gained or lost territory through war, theft, or threat of war. There's not too many countries with clean hands.

This entire Hamas thing reminds me of a fly. You sit there eating and this fly keeps annoying you. You try to reason with the fly, but he's not having any of it. You shoo the fly away but he keeps coming back, buzzing about your head and plate. When you've finally had enough, you flatten the little b@stard.

It makes me wonder about the actual goals of Hamas, the PA, PLO, etc. Yassir Arafat died sitting on 2 billion dollars he scammed from the coffers of the PLO. For 2 billion, Israel probably would have sold him Palestine. For sure the PLO could have put that money towards moving on and improving the lives of the Palestinians. There was certainly no reason for them to be living in refugee camps. Arafat is hardly mentioned today and that's probably why.

I doubt the leadership of Hamas is completely stupid and at the very least realizes that if various combined Arab armies could not force Israel out, zipping rockets in on them on a random basis won't do it either. It merely puts Hamas in the position of the fly, soon to be flattened. They want to be flattened. They seek it. Why? If the fanatical want to be martyrs, thats fine but that doesn't mean the family whose front yard they put their rocket launcher in want to be martyred with them. Even if they could force a military victory, they don't have the ground forces to take and hold the real estate. They remind me of the standard, run-of-the-mill, weak, ineffective leadership that has to constantly keep the "outside" threat alive in order to keep the population they lead from wondering why their lives aren't getting any better.

Hamas knew this would happen. They knew the effects it would have on their civil populations. They do it anyway. They sought it, wanted it and now they've got it. The big question is why would they intentionally want to subject their people to such events?

[Rani]

so you admit that its based and founded on a pack of lies??
I agreeJoseph Goebbels' lies had some part in founding it.

[Eki]

I agreeJoseph Goebbels' lies had some part in founding it.

What does Goebbels got to do with Palestine? As far as I know it was British territory, not German.

[Easy Drifter]

Fiero 5.7: A very intelligent and well thought out post.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fireo....you hit the nail on the head. What Hamas is doing is very similar to what the tyrannical oppressive regime in "1984" did in keeping a war alive with the other superpowers. It gave the powers that be an excuse to not improve or do anything useful for the citizens.

In fighting Israel, Hamas isn't concerned about winning, they are just merely fighting to ensure THEY control the flow of money into Gaza from the naive politicians that keep funnelling money from tenderhearted souls in the Western Democracies because they feel bad people are in camps.

Fiero, you know asking why Arafat didn't improve the life of his people goes unanswered. The useful idiots on here don't like logical questions with answers they don't agree with. It is easier to blame Israel.

[TOgoFASTER]

Oh my "1984" :laugh:

Fear the fear and so on... :laugh:

[steve_spackman]

Mr. Spackman...You always are so logical when you have a good chapter of Mein Kampf read before you get out of bed?

What rot!

Israel has as much right to exist as Saudi Arabia or Iraq or the UK for that matter. It is only not recognized by the countries of the Arab world who cannot stand that a country with no oil in their midst has a healthier populace, has an economy that isnt' subsidized by the selling of a finite resource and has managed to do what the Arab's who lived there after the first time the Jews were pushed out of their holy land couldn't do.

Israel may have some faults like any democracy, but clearly sir you are obviously a little anti-semitic and deranged....

oh a healthier populace than other middle east countries..

i beg to differ. you ever seen these die hard jewish commercials on tv begging people to donate money to help all these homeless jewish people living in filth and decay in the holy land???

In my eyes Israel is just like the former USSR. more interested in the millions of dollars it can waste on weapons rather than helping their people get out of the harsh living that they endure

so you label me a nazi just because of my views...thats a little bit sad dont ya think?


anti-semitic and deranged?? so tell me whats so special about Israel??

[steve_spackman]

I love the attack on Israel as if it is the only nation on earth that ever discriminated against anyone. The average arab living within the borders of Israel may not have some of the rights they should and that is wrong, but they live a higher quality of life than the Palestitinians in the West Bank or certainly Gaza. For anyone to then turn around and say Gaza's issues now are the fault totally of Israel is to ignore that blind reality that Hamas refuses to quit stirring up S#it with the Israeli's and lobbing rockets into Israel.

To try and defend that is ludircious. Of course...I have come to expect no less from some of the more delusional thinkers who feel this terrorism is justified while condemning George W Bush for his botched war with Iraq. That war that by the way has created a new democracy of sorts and has after a surge (decried by all the "experts") that actually has allowed almost all of Iraq to be become under the control of their own government and will allow the US to get the hell out of there.

How can Bush give Iraq democracy, when the US itself is a republic???

It must be so confusing for the US to call its self free and democratic yet they are nothing more than slaves to the rhythm apart from a very small group of open minded souls. and the funny thing is is that they say that the spread freedom and democracy...utter crap!!

[BDunnell]

It makes me wonder about the actual goals of Hamas, the PA, PLO, etc.

I have asked myself the same about al-Qaeda. Some people are scared that they represent a threat to our livelihoods — that they are somehow in the vanguard of some sort of 'Islamic takeover' of the West. This is clearly nonsensical. There is no prospect of any 'victory', whatever the rights or wrongs of the response of those al-Qaeda has attacked. Unfortunately, the same can be said of the responses, because just as al-Qaeda will not impose its way of thinking on countries like the USA and UK, so our response will never kill off Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism per se. There are parallels here with Israel and its opponents.


They remind me of the standard, run-of-the-mill, weak, ineffective leadership that has to constantly keep the "outside" threat alive in order to keep the population they lead from wondering why their lives aren't getting any better.

A pattern we have seen repeated in the 'war against terrorism', in which threats that statistically pose little danger to us as citizens have been exaggerated, thus allowing attempts at the imposition of draconian laws. It is clearly an effective tactic.



Hamas knew this would happen. They knew the effects it would have on their civil populations. They do it anyway. They sought it, wanted it and now they've got it. The big question is why would they intentionally want to subject their people to such events?

It is an interesting psychological question — and again one that can be posed in relation to other groups.

[Camelopard]

BTW my invitation for you to come to Israel still stands, you can even crash on my couch if you'd like.

How do you know I haven't been to Israel? Do you think I would openly admit it given their are lots of other countries I want to visit that won't let to in if you have been to Israel? Ever thought that I may have been their and discovered it wasn't utopia and was appalled by how the Palestinians and arabs are treated?

Also you avoided the question then that Begin was a terrorist, same as you are doing now.

[Camelopard]

Mr. Spackman...You always are so logical when you have a good chapter of Mein Kampf read before you get out of bed?

What rot!

Israel has as much right to exist as Saudi Arabia or Iraq or the UK for that matter. It is only not recognized by the countries of the Arab world who cannot stand that a country with no oil in their midst has a healthier populace, has an economy that isnt' subsidized by the selling of a finite resource and has managed to do what the Arab's who lived there after the first time the Jews were pushed out of their holy land couldn't do.

Israel may have some faults like any democracy, but clearly sir you are obviously a little anti-semitic and deranged....


Here we go, typical response when some one has the audacity to critise Israel, we are anti-semitic.......

Would Israel be able to stand on it's own feet with out the billions of aid from the US, don't think so. So in a way US aid isn't finite.

Just because the US has used all their finite oil, no one else is allowed to use theirs? what rot! I sniff a hint of jealously here, bet you would be very happy if Canada had Saudis oil reserves, by the way those oil sand projects in Canada, good thing they aren't finite!

[Camelopard]

What that has to do with today I do not understand.



Very relevant, you criticise the taliban for their tactics, yet zionists were doing the same thing against who they saw as their enemies and to get their end result, why shouldn't the taliban use what ever means possible to attack their enemies? and hamas as far as that goes.

[steve_spackman]

Here we go, typical response when some one has the audacity to critise Israel, we are anti-semitic.......

Would Israel be able to stand on it's own feet with out the billions of aid from the US, don't think so. So in a way US aid isn't finite.

Just because the US has used all their finite oil, no one else is allowed to use theirs? what rot! I sniff a hint of jealously here, bet you would be very happy if Canada had Saudis oil reserves, by the way those oil sand projects in Canada, good thing they aren't finite!

i have to agree with you Camelopard

[Tomi]

Funnily enough I plan to visit Israel, hopefully this year, as I think it's such an interesting place with so much history to offer.
It's somewhere I've always wanted to see.

The red sea have good diving spots on the israel side aswell. For religious freaks I guess its a good destination too.

[Daniel]

Is anyone getting the Arabic made easy banner ads on this thread? :D

[Daniel]

Very relevant, you criticise the taliban for their tactics, yet zionists were doing the same thing against who they saw as their enemies and to get their end result, why shouldn't the taliban use what ever means possible to attack their enemies? and hamas as far as that goes.

One man's freedom fighter.....

[BDunnell]

One man's freedom fighter.....

Exactly.

[SOD]

wow the palestinians are like a fly,

Oh the humanity

19 children killed in Gaza in past 24 hours.

And the west has to support Israel????????????//

[SOD]

Oh my "1984" :laugh:

Fear the fear and so on... :laugh:

:s hakeshead:

[TOgoFASTER]

:s hakeshead:

Hey, at least that has not been happening in my own backyard... :laugh:

[steve_spackman]

Mr. Spackman...You always are so logical when you have a good chapter of Mein Kampf read before you get out of bed?

What rot!

Israel has as much right to exist as Saudi Arabia or Iraq or the UK for that matter. It is only not recognized by the countries of the Arab world who cannot stand that a country with no oil in their midst has a healthier populace, has an economy that isnt' subsidized by the selling of a finite resource and has managed to do what the Arab's who lived there after the first time the Jews were pushed out of their holy land couldn't do.

Israel may have some faults like any democracy, but clearly sir you are obviously a little anti-semitic and deranged....

so which side is commiting acts of terror?? Hamas or Israel??

may shock you when i say i think both sides are as bad as eachother, yet Israel is going a bit over the top....

[steve_spackman]

my understanding is that Hamas started it - Therefore you must accept the retaliation!

so who do you think is commiting the acts of terror here..Hamas or Israel?

to be honest i feel that they are both as bad as eachother, yet Israel have taken it a bit to far..as usual.

your amazing president said that Hamas is doing acts of terror. He for one cant talk as he has commited acts of terror and killed more innocent people than Hamas has....hypocrite

[SOD]

Israel may have some faults like any democracy..

believe me, when the head of israeli police says that "olmert is resigning because he knows we are closing in on him" aint much of a democracy with due-process.

[Easy Drifter]

Sod: Would you be be kind enough to translate your signature line for all of us on both sides of this thread?
I am just asking as I am curious.
Also would you reveal your nationality?
Most posters on this thread have, although it is not really germain to the topic.
Please note I am just asking. It is up to you if you wish to respond.
Any further postings by me will not be influenced by your response.
I naturally can not speak for any other poster.

[Roamy]

so who do you think is commiting the acts of terror here..Hamas or Israel?

to be honest i feel that they are both as bad as eachother, yet Israel have taken it a bit to far..as usual.

your amazing president said that Hamas is doing acts of terror. He for one cant talk as he has commited acts of terror and killed more innocent people than Hamas has....hypocrite

the fact as I understand - there was a cease fire in place
it expired and Hamas rained rockets down on Israel

OOps there goes another Hamas terrorist !!!
Go Israel !!!!

If you eliminate Hamas, Hezbolah and the Gov of Iran then Peace will in fact be possible in the middle east.

Hamas is using the Pales as cannon fodder to bring international criticism on Israel. They know they are not match and they know what will happen. I am very sorry the Pales elected this idiots. With a little common sense the Pales could live in harmony. But no terrorists have no regard for anyone. That is why they target civilians and they want the international community to condemn the power. Between the UN and the Terrorists I see little hope for world peace anytime soon. Just hope it doesn't come to you country!!

[Valve Bounce]

I think the latest rockets being fired by Hamas are getting close to the nuclear installations east of Beersheva. (sorry if my spelling is incorrect). Under the circumstances, I think Israel would have to neutralise the cross border tunnels which are being used to supply Hamas as well as Hamas.

[Eki]

the fact as I understand - there was a cease fire in place
it expired and Hamas rained rockets down on Israel

OOps there goes another Hamas terrorist !!!
Go Israel !!!!

If you eliminate Hamas, Hezbolah and the Gov of Iran then Peace will in fact be possible in the middle east.

Hamas is using the Pales as cannon fodder to bring international criticism on Israel. They know they are not match and they know what will happen. I am very sorry the Pales elected this idiots. With a little common sense the Pales could live in harmony. But no terrorists have no regard for anyone. That is why they target civilians and they want the international community to condemn the power. Between the UN and the Terrorists I see little hope for world peace anytime soon. Just hope it doesn't come to you country!!

I don't understand why just Hamas should give up and bend over. Why shouldn't Israelis bend too, and meet them half way?