Israel took a dump on Gaza again....

[Daniel]

What a bar steward. Not you Eki, the guy in the post. I won't even attempt to lump Rani in with this fool as Rani seems a lot more reasonable. It's extremist fools like this guy who are the other half of the problem. Get rid of people like this guy and the extremists on the Palestinian side and the troubles will melt away.

[Roamy]

Israel could destroy all European capitals with nuclear weapons.
Hey FOUSTO, will your missile defense system you're building in Eastern Europe also protect us from Israeli missiles? I worry more about them than Iran.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/israeli-professor-we-could-destroy-all-european-capitals-0#comments

Well I can honestly say that as I read the responses on this forum, your fears would not be of surprise to me. You want to continually support the wrong guy and provoke the one that can take you down. Not very good choices IMHO.

You should get behind a deal to resolve the Pale/Isr problem and one to immediately handle Iran - But you won't - you will just go down to the beer garden and read the new immigration stats showing you getting pushed out.

[Daniel]

Well I can honestly say that as I read the responses on this forum, your fears would not be of surprise to me. You want to continually support the wrong guy and provoke the one that can take you down. Not very good choices IMHO.

You should get behind a deal to resolve the Pale/Isr problem and one to immediately handle Iran - But you won't - you will just go down to the beer garden and read the new immigration stats showing you getting pushed out.
What in gods name are you talking about?

[Roamy]

daniel
read the above

Originally Posted by
Israeli Professor:’We Could Destroy All European Capitals’
January 26, 2009 at 09:08 am


By Nadim Ladki

[Daniel]

daniel
read the above

Originally Posted by
Israeli Professor:’We Could Destroy All European Capitals’
January 26, 2009 at 09:08 am


By Nadim Ladki
I did and I'm still none the wiser as to what your gibberish means.

[Roamy]

Daniel - Stay with it and it will come to you!!!

[Easy Drifter]

So we have one nutty radical professor mouthing off. Every country has them. Some of the biggest dingbats around are professors.
Most professors are more out of touch with reality than most politicians and that takes some doing.
The danger comes when these radicals gain a position of power.
I do not for a minute believe that Israel does not have nuclear weapons and the means of delivering them even against Europe.
However there is no reason for her to do so.
Israel also knows that if she attacked Europe she would be wiped out.
France and the UK both have more than enough nuclear weapons to wipe Israel (and most of the mid east) off the map to say nothing of the possible response from the US and Russia.
Now every one take their meds, calm down and go to bed, or better yet have another drink.

[Eki]

so.
Israel also knows that if she attacked Europe she would be wiped out.

Iran/Iraq also know/knew if they attacked anyone with WMDs, they'd be wiped out. That didn't stop the US from invading Iraq and putting sanctions on Iran.

[Easy Drifter]

Eki Have another drink.
Your response has nothing to do with the wacky Prof.

[Eki]

BTW, I'd bet that Israel could more easily get away with a nuclear attack than Iran. As long as they didn't attack anyone with a greater nuclear capability, they'd probably be forgiven. The US would veto any objections in the UN. Yup, Israel is one of the few countries of its size that can get away with murder.

[Cooper_S]

There isn't half a load of old tripe written in this thread...

Some of the comments on here just put a smile on my face for they must be jokes... what a wicked sense of humor you lot have...

Sorry, I interrupted, please carry on...

[donKey jote]

You should have seen the Iraq threads a few years back :laugh:

[airshifter]

You should have seen the Iraq threads a few years back :laugh:

Touche' Donkey!

[Mark in Oshawa]

EKi...you might be the only one in Europe more scared of Israel than Iran. Which of course proves once again why we dismiss most of your rantings now. You wouldn't know a threat if it was about to actually happen to you. That's ok though, we like you anyhow, you prove once again that wacky people inhabit the left as well as the right.

[steve_spackman]

EKi...you might be the only one in Europe more scared of Israel than Iran. Which of course proves once again why we dismiss most of your rantings now. You wouldn't know a threat if it was about to actually happen to you. That's ok though, we like you anyhow, you prove once again that wacky people inhabit the left as well as the right.

I dont see why people are scared of Iran..if they wanted to do something they would of done it by now...

[schmenke]

I dont see why people are scared of Iran..if they wanted to do something they would of done it by now...

Why do you think that?

[Daniel]

Why do you think that?
Don't the lessons learnt from Iraq teach us that a lot of these guys just speak loud, do nothing and have no nasties in the cupboard?

[Mark in Oshawa]

I dont see why people are scared of Iran..if they wanted to do something they would of done it by now...


They do it every time they fund Hamas and Hezbollah. As for if they were going to do something....remember they don't have the bomb yet. When they get that, they may or may not do something. Remember, they are awaiting the return of the "Madhi".......or at least the Mullahs are. The poor schlub on the streets of Tehran probably wants their governement changed worse than I do but isn't allowed to say so. We all know how wonderfully tolerant the government of Iran is to dissent after all....

[Roamy]

Well TIRE is probably safe due to the massive immigration they have allowed. However history does reveal that Iran has no qualms about taking out their neighbor.

[Daniel]

Well TIRE is probably safe due to the massive immigration they have allowed. However history does reveal that Iran has no qualms about taking out their neighbor.
Hey I'd rather live in this supposed Islamic Republic than your country which openly welcomes child molesters.

[Camelopard]

However history does reveal that Iran has no qualms about taking out their neighbor.

What on earth are you crapping on about now? Iraq with lots of help from the West invaded Iran...............

:confused:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hey I'd rather live in this supposed Islamic Republic than your country which openly welcomes child molesters.

Ummm which molester? Last time I looked, a buddy of mine got turned around at the border because he was arrested in a bar fight when he was 19. The Yanks are a lot of things..but weak kneed on crime isn't usually one of them.

[Daniel]

Ummm which molester? Last time I looked, a buddy of mine got turned around at the border because he was arrested in a bar fight when he was 19. The Yanks are a lot of things..but weak kneed on crime isn't usually one of them.

Oh don't worry :) This is just my way of countering Fousto's ridiculous Republic of Islam remarks. All Americans like little boys!

[Eki]

They do it every time they fund Hamas and Hezbollah.
Have you seen them fund Hamas and Hezbolla, or have they said they fund Hamas and Hezbollah? Or have you just heard Americans and Israelis claim they do?

[Rani]

Have you seen them fund Hamas and Hezbolla, or have they said they fund Hamas and Hezbollah? Or have you just heard Americans and Israelis claim they do?
http://archive.gulfnews.com/indepth/palestinianelection/more_stories/10020678.html

[Hondo]

Hamas broke the truce blah blah blah....Israel broke the truce blah blah blah...

Reminds me of the old "duck season - wabbit season" debate in front of Elmer Fudd on an old Bugs Bunny cartoon.

The world needs to back off and let the silly b@st@rds fight it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veIXcySqItY

[steve_spackman]

http://archive.gulfnews.com/indepth/palestinianelection/more_stories/10020678.html

Just like the US gives around $7 million each day to fund Israel....

The US funds Israel, then Iran funds Hamas..its a 2 way street my friend.

[Roamy]

Just like the US gives around $7 million each day to fund Israel....

The US funds Israel, then Iran funds Hamas..its a 2 way street my friend.

Good lets bomb Iran now !!! or have israel do it for us is better.

[Rani]

Just like the US gives around $7 million each day to fund Israel....

The US funds Israel, then Iran funds Hamas..its a 2 way street my friend.

Have you seen them fund Israel, or have they said they fund Israel? Or have you just heard Iran and Hamas claim they do?

:laugh:

MY FRIEND.

[steve_spackman]

Good lets bomb Iran now !!! or have israel do it for us is better.

Why bomb Iran..what have they done to the US..just like what did Iraq do to the US?

by Stephen Zunes - Associate Professor of Politics and Chair of the Peace and Justice Studies Program at San Francisco University.

The U.S. supports Israel's dominance so it can serve as "a surrogate for American interests in this vital strategic region." "Israel has helped defeat radical nationalist movements" and has been a "testing ground for U.S. made weaponry." Moreover, the intelligence agencies of both countries have "collaborated," and "Israel has funneled U.S. arms to third countries that the U.S. [could] not send arms to directly,…Iike South Africa, like the Contras, Guatemala under the military junta, [and] Iran." Zunes cited an Israeli analyst who said: "'It's like Israel has just become another federal agency when it's convenient to use and you want something done quietly."' Although the strategic relationship between the United States and the Gulf Arab states in the region has been strengthening in recent years, these states "do not have the political stability, the technological sophistication, [or] the number of higher-trained armed forces personnel" as does Israel.

[steve_spackman]

Have you seen them fund Israel, or have they said they fund Israel? Or have you just heard Iran and Hamas claim they do?

:laugh:

MY FRIEND.

The US does fund Israel..

So the US needs to put itself on the 'axis of evil' list, as it clearly does support and funds terror..

the war on terror fought by terrorists.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm#Taxpayer

Tom Malthaner

This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

[Hondo]

duck season...rabbit season...lol

[Eki]

Have you seen them fund Israel, or have they said they fund Israel? Or have you just heard Iran and Hamas claim they do?

:laugh:

MY FRIEND.
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

quote: Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

quote: Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

Not sure if you can figure this out Eki...but there is a reason a country with no oil in the Middle East has a high GNP. It is because the DEMOCRACY that runs Israel lets people be free to make a living and uses CAPITALISM to create wealth. All those other nations have a lot of fat people at the top running things and restricting freedom. Of course..you are all for that Eki when it isn't you I know, but for Israel, freedom works.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Here is a column that pretty much sums up why Israel doesn't care what you think Eki:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/01/17/robert-fulford-on-proportionality.aspx

The writer by the way isn't some slaving neo-con, he is just your average middle of the road columnist who thinks pretty logically on a lot of things I find....I don't always agree or disagree but he does make me think.

[Eki]

Not sure if you can figure this out Eki...but there is a reason a country with no oil in the Middle East has a high GNP. It is because the DEMOCRACY that runs Israel lets people be free to make a living and uses CAPITALISM to create wealth. All those other nations have a lot of fat people at the top running things and restricting freedom. Of course..you are all for that Eki when it isn't you I know, but for Israel, freedom works.
So? I thought countries with high GNP don't need foreign aid, they can do it on their own. Finland stopped giving Israel foreign aid years ago. I think it's time the US does the same. Would you like Bill Gates to cash in a welfare cheque?

[Easy Drifter]

I do not think the US really cares what you think Eki.
The US has also pledged 20 million to help rebuild Gaza.
Has Finland pledged any?
Canada has pledged 3.4 million.

[Eki]

The US has also pledged 20 million to help rebuild Gaza.
Has Finland pledged any?

Considering Israel bombed and destroyed a maternal clinic in Gaza funded by the Finnish Lutheran Church, I think it has. It was my tax money, since 82.5% of Finns belong to the Lutheran Church and pay a church tax by default unless they specifically resign from the church.

[Rani]

Considering Israel bombed and destroyed a maternal clinic in Gaza funded by the Finnish Lutheran Church, I think it has. It was my tax money, since 82.5% of Finns belong to the Lutheran Church and pay a church tax by default unless they specifically resign from the church.

It was on purpose, a warning to the nuclear strike :bomb: Israel is about to mount on Finland... :disturb:
:disturb:


Get real... :disturb:
:disturb:

[Easy Drifter]

When you get past the BS then Finland has not pledged any money to rebuild Gaza. Right?
The Church, not Finland, funded one building that was bombed.
Interesting.

[Eki]

It was on purpose, a warning to the nuclear strike :bomb: Israel is about to mount on Finland... :disturb:
:disturb:


Get real... :disturb:
:disturb:
It's getting harder and harder to believe in "coincindences". First Israel killed a Finnish UN military observer in Lebanon and then they bombed a clinic run by the Finnish Lutheran Church. Furthermore, a former Finnish UN peacekeeper told that an Israeli lieutanent had threatened him with a pistol when they tried to stop the Israeli from entering a Palestinian village and destroying a house there. Another former Finnish UN peacekeeper told some other nasty things about the Israeli troops as well.

[Eki]

When you get past the BS then Finland has not pledged any money to rebuild Gaza. Right?
The Church, not Finland, funded one building that was bombed.
Interesting.

The Lutheran Church is the Finnish State Church.

Other than that, I don't know if Finland has pledged any money to rebuild Gaza, and I don't understand why Finland should pay something that Israel destroy. Here it's customery that he who does the damage also pays for the damage.

[Easy Drifter]

You blather on about the US aiding Israel but when they aid Gaza you say you see no reason why Finland should. It is called humanitarian aid.
The Church of England (Anglican) is the Official church of England but they are not part of the Govt.
Is the Lutheran Church a branch of the Finnish Govt.?
You really are a little pathetic and delusional about reality.

[Hondo]

I wouldn't give a cent towards rebuilding anything until those idiots agree to stop destroying it all.

DUCK SEASON....RABBIT SEASON!!!....lol

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Lutheran Church is the Finnish State Church.

Other than that, I don't know if Finland has pledged any money to rebuild Gaza, and I don't understand why Finland should pay something that Israel destroy. Here it's customery that he who does the damage also pays for the damage.


Eki...Israeli investors would invest in Gaza the same way they have been investing in the West Bank, which during all of this has been quiet. Why? I think because the people there are finally starting to realize getting on with their lives is better than trying to kill people on a waste of time.

[Eki]

You blather on about the US aiding Israel but when they aid Gaza you say you see no reason why Finland should. It is called humanitarian aid.
The Church of England (Anglican) is the Official church of England but they are not part of the Govt.
Is the Lutheran Church a branch of the Finnish Govt.?
You really are a little pathetic and delusional about reality.
Israel doesn't need humanitarian help. Furthermore, if they can afford destroying Gaza, they can afford rebuilding it. I don't see much point in other countries rebuilding Gaza and then Israel comes and destroys it again.

For your other question, there is more to Finland than its government. The President of Finland is the head of the Finnish Lutheran Church, and she even doesn't belong to the church.

[Easy Drifter]

So by your convoluted reasoning the US and Canada should not be helping to rebuild Gaza?
You do need help.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki. Here is a clue why we have so little faith in 90% of what you say. I am sure if I read through the 52 pages of this thread you will have some referrence to how Gaza has no infrastruture and the people are living in virtual camps. If not you someone you would agree with. Now you are saying Israel should be REBUILDING (RE...not BUILDING)the infrastructure. So the question is now who financed the building of the infrastucture of that wonderful place we call Gaza? Inquiring minds want to know how you can suck and blow at the same time by the way....

Oh ya...we know that the west has likely financed a lot of the building, some Arab nations have coughed up oil money and "guilt" money and oh yes...Israel coughed up some of that money. Now Hamas comes along, intimidates enough people to gain control over the government in Gaza, institutes a terror campaign to kill Israeli's which you blindly ignore or down play for over 3 years...and the Isreali's get ticked off with this and decide to do a little reno work on this wonderful little slice of heaven and it is somehow Israel's responsiblity to rebuild? It isn't...but they will anyhow if Hamas agrees to making peace.

Of course..this isnt' good enough for you, nothing less than the eradication of the Jewish state from the face of the earth would satisfy you...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Have you seen them fund Hamas and Hezbolla, or have they said they fund Hamas and Hezbollah? Or have you just heard Americans and Israelis claim they do?


That's right Eki...it is all a propaganda stunt. No...Iran admits to it proudly...the US didn't have to make it up. Eki...don't know if you noticed..but the President of Iran really HATES Jews. Little note to you...he hates them so much, he will openly tell everyone how Iran is giving money to Hezbollah and Hamas so they can help people....nudge nudge wink wink say no more....

[Eki]

So by your convoluted reasoning the US and Canada should not be helping to rebuild Gaza?
You do need help.
I didn't say they shouldn't, but it would make more sense and be cheaper if they instead tried to prohibit Israel from destroying it.

[Easy Drifter]

Eki: You are pathetic.

[Rani]

Furthermore, a former Finnish UN peacekeeper told that an Israeli lieutanent had threatened him with a pistol when they tried to stop the Israeli from entering a Palestinian village and destroying a house there.

LIES, Damned Lies, I say!
I bet that's not true.If I had a squad of engineering commandos and a D9 in my wake the last thing I would be waving around in a threatening manner is a lowly pistol!


:laugh:

[donKey jote]

In unrelated news:
Shot Briton's family 'gets £1.5m' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/devon/7863828.stm)

"probably the closest (we) will get to an admission of guilt on the part of the Israelis".

I guess ordinary "pale" lives aren't "worth" as much :dozey:

[Daniel]

In unrelated news:
Shot Briton's family 'gets £1.5m' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/devon/7863828.stm)


I guess ordinary "pale" lives aren't "worth" as much :dozey:
Don't trust the BBC Donks...... we have biased media here :laugh:

Sadly people like Rani will continue to deny that these sort of things seem to happen all too often with the Israeli army. Perhaps Mr Miller had rockets in his camera? :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Eki: You are pathetic.

He has a point.....

[Eki]

In unrelated news:
Shot Briton's family 'gets £1.5m' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/devon/7863828.stm)


I guess ordinary "pale" lives aren't "worth" as much :dozey:
He was lucky he was a Briton. If he had been from some less significant country like Finland, the Israelies would have just flipped the middle finger instead of paying any compensation.

[donKey jote]

Perhaps Mr Miller had rockets in his camera? :rolleyes:
Or maybe he looked like the Gaza equivalent of a Brazilian in a London tube station? I mean in that photo he appears to be wearing a "pale" scarve. :rolleyes:

[donKey jote]

He was lucky he was a Briton. If he had been from some less significant country like Finland, the Israelies would have just flipped the middle finger instead of paying any compensation.

You finns think you have it bad.. just imagine if you were Palestinian cameramen.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3764160.ece
Footage of Fadel Shana, 23, being killed by a tank shell in the Gaza Strip has been released by the news agency [Reuters], which said that the cameraman was hit despite clear markings that showed him to be a journalist.

[Easy Drifter]

And despite the ceasefire the Hamas are busy firing rockets and mortars at Israel again. There have been Israeli casulties.
So far Israel has just warned that if it continues they will reply with disportionate force. At least they are telling everyone what will happen.
With their elections coming up and a good chance the hardliners will get in Hamas must be sucicidal and totally uncaring about the civilian population.
That said Israel certainly is not blameless.

[Daniel]

Or maybe he looked like the Gaza equivalent of a Brazilian in a London tube station? I mean in that photo he appears to be wearing a "pale" scarve. :rolleyes:

Rather.

[Daniel]

You finns think you have it bad.. just imagine if you were Palestinian cameramen.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3764160.ece
Footage of Fadel Shana, 23, being killed by a tank shell in the Gaza Strip has been released by the news agency [Reuters], which said that the cameraman was hit despite clear markings that showed him to be a journalist.

This is simply unacceptable. I'm sure Rani will come here claiming that Hamas were using TV vehicles to launch rockets or something though....

[Rani]

This is simply unacceptable. I'm sure Rani will come here claiming that Hamas were using TV vehicles to launch rockets or something though....
Well, they have used Tv vehicles http://www.bicom.org.uk/news/media-summary/palestinian-and-international-journalists-slam-use-of--tv--vehicle-in-islamic-jihad-attack
and UN Ambulances http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg
creatively before...

I guess it huts you more when they use britons as a human shield rather than the local population...



Do you think some soldier is happy now that he knows he killed an innocent person?!

Sadly these kinds of mistakes happen in every war. It happens a lot more when Hamas uses your journalists as human shields.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It sucks...but last time I looked war was messy....

[Daniel]

Well, they have used Tv vehicles http://www.bicom.org.uk/news/media-summary/palestinian-and-international-journalists-slam-use-of--tv--vehicle-in-islamic-jihad-attack
and UN Ambulances http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg
creatively before...

I guess it huts you more when they use britons as a human shield rather than the local population...



Do you think some soldier is happy now that he knows he killed an innocent person?!

Sadly these kinds of mistakes happen in every war. It happens a lot more when Hamas uses your journalists as human shields.

I can't believe someone would back these people up. I take it Israel doesn't operate under the understanding of people being innocent until proven guilty or is it standard policy to kill anyone who is a possible threat or might grow up to be a threat in 15 years time or something like that?

You are a despicable excuse for a human being at the very best.

[Daniel]

It sucks...but last time I looked war was messy....
I'm sorry but this is not a proper war. This is something more like the conflict in Northern Ireland and no one ever called that a war. War was messy back in the 40's and up until the Gulf war but we have excellent technology these days. I would hazard a guess that anyway you slice it the US have caused a helluva lot less collateral damage in Iraq and Afghanistan. The media have a right to be there and as long as they clearly mark their vehicles the Israeli tosspots should not shoot them unless they actually want to cause civilian deaths which doesn't seem to be a problem for Israeli soldiers. Yes as Rani shows in his video terrorists sometimes does use UN vans or TV vehicles as cover but that doesn't mean that all ambulances or TV vehicles should be shot onsite without investigation......

However you want to slice it this is murder and I fully support Israeli soldiers blowing the crap out of a UN van if they know for certain there are millitants inside, but you can't do this from a distance, all they did was murder innocent people and they should be sentenced in an international court for war crimes.

[donKey jote]

I would hazard a guess that anyway you slice it the US have caused a helluva lot less collateral damage in Iraq and Afghanistan. The media have a right to be there and as long as they clearly mark their vehicles the Israeli tosspots should not shoot them unless they actually want to cause civilian deaths which doesn't seem to be a problem for Israeli soldiers. Yes as Rani shows in his video terrorists sometimes does use UN vans or TV vehicles as cover but that doesn't mean that all ambulances or TV vehicles should be shot onsite without investigation......

However you want to slice it this is murder and I fully support Israeli soldiers blowing the crap out of a UN van if they know for certain there are millitants inside, but you can't do this from a distance, all they did was murder innocent people and they should be sentenced in an international court for war crimes.
in unrelated news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2928153.stm

Two cameramen, working for Reuters and Spain's Telecinco, were killed when a shell hit the hotel which houses hundreds of foreign journalists. There is video footage of an American Abrams tank firing at the building.

Earlier, a correspondent for the Arabic TV broadcaster al-Jazeera was killed when US missiles hit the network's office.

The US Defense Department has expressed regret for the deaths of journalists, but said American forces were acting in self-defence, having encountered small-arms fire coming from the direction of the hotel.
and http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/19/spain.us.soldiers/index.html

A Spanish judge issued an international arrest warrant Wednesday for three U.S. soldiers, charging them with murder in the death of Spanish TV cameraman Jose Couso in Baghdad, Iraq.

[Daniel]

in unrelated news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2928153.stm

and http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/19/spain.us.soldiers/index.html
Thing is Donks, that was actually a proper war zone and not some place where Israeli's were going in and shelling any vehicles they saw and gunning down innocent civilians in the street.

To compare the Israeli ethnic cleansing in Gaza to a proper war is in my mind as bad as someone saying there was never a holocaust.

[Rani]

I can't believe someone would back these people up. I take it Israel doesn't operate under the understanding of people being innocent until proven guilty or is it standard policy to kill anyone who is a possible threat or might grow up to be a threat in 15 years time or something like that?

You are a despicable excuse for a human being at the very best.


I am not backing anyone up!
The fact these people were killed is a grave tragedy. What more do you want me to say?
They weren't killed purposely, but probably because of misidentification.

In the real world, Daniel, when you think someone is about to shoot you, you shoot him first. Hesitation can kill you, so just like you don't hesitate before you post this despicable excuse for a post, you shoot first. Sadly, mistakes happen sometimes and innocent people are killed. It doesn't make it right but trying to paint this as cold hearted murder is BS.

You'd have pulled the trigger too if you felt threatend. I don't mean threatened like you feel when someone puts you in your place on this forum, but rather so f*****g horrified you feel you're going to die.

When a situation like this happens to you I'd say you have the ability to judge such actions. Until then I'll think you're just babbling.


PS your opinion about me doesn't interest me in the slightest...

You don't know anything about anything related to this topic- or to me for that matter. Who are you to judge who I am?



I'd just like to add I think you're an excellent person. Your devotion to this forum should be respected, cherished and envied by all. You truly serve humanity !!! :kiss: :heart: :love:

[Rani]

Thing is Donks, that was actually a proper war zone and not some place where Israeli's were going in and shelling any vehicles they saw and gunning down innocent civilians in the street.

To compare the Israeli ethnic cleansing in Gaza to a proper war is in my mind as bad as someone saying there was never a holocaust.

General Daniel, A question if I might:
How do you define a war zone if I may humbly ask?


Is it a war zone only when american soldiers are there?

And again you bring up the holocaust...
How pathetic.

[donKey jote]

sometimes it can look like you don't just shoot first... you set up the target:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054217.html

Other accounts given to The Associated Press and an Israeli human rights group provided lower casualty figures, but all agreed that shells hit the large, unfinished warehouse-like building a day after Israeli troops told them to get inside it for their safety.

[Rani]

sometimes it can look like you don't just shoot first... you set up the target:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054217.html
If war crimes were indeed commited in this case, I think the person responsible should be prosecuted.

[donKey jote]

The problem being, there is no single person responsible, it seems a systematic disregard of "collateral damage".
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047267.html

Last update - 04:28 17/12/2008
Jurists tell Barak: Don't shell Gaza population centers
By Amos Harel
Tags: Gaza Strip, Israel News

Israel should not use artillery fire to target rocket-launching militants in the Gaza Strip if the fire is aimed at populated areas, the defense establishment's legal adviser recently told Defense Minister Ehud Barak.


btw, is Haaretz considered left-wing in Israel ? It seems to be quite objective and critic of the official line sometimes, or at least does appear to publish some uncomfortable views.

[steve_spackman]

It should be pointed out that Hamas did not "seize power" in 2007. The party won a fair and free election victory in January of 2006 over Fatah - a victory which met with much disapproval in Tel Aviv and Washington, in spite of Bush's mouthing support for democratically elected governments wherever they might be. In the summer of 2007, Fatah attempted a coup against Hamas in Gaza, supported by Bush, Rice and Elliott Abrams - a move in which they were unsuccessful. Now it seems that the press is trying to re-write history and tar Hamaz with the brush of illegitimacy. Who's pulling the strings here??

[Eki]

I can't believe someone would back these people up. I take it Israel doesn't operate under the understanding of people being innocent until proven guilty or is it standard policy to kill anyone who is a possible threat or might grow up to be a threat in 15 years time or something like that?

You are a despicable excuse for a human being at the very best.
True. I can accept blowing up a bunch of Palestinians who are clearly about to launch a rocket. I can accept killing a Palestinian carrying an AK-47. But I can't accept blowing up an ambulance, hospital or a school just in case there were some Hamas fighters hiding. Or killing someone with a camera just in case the camera is an IED or other weapon (I believe the journalist are killed because they witnessed some war crimes though).

[Easy Drifter]

There is little doubt mistakes were made. They always have been and always will.
But in a war zone when there are bullets whizzing past your head or explosions all around you and you see, or even think you saw a flash of a gun firing or what appears to be residue smoke you bloody well open fire or there is a good chance the next one won't miss you.
In this case the Hamas usually were not wearing uniforms so it made it extremely difficult to tell who was a terrorist and who was an innocent civilian. Do not forget Hamas have used women and children as suicide bombers.
It is not like hunting where you do not shoot until you are sure of what you are shooting at. Deer do not shoot at you. Opposing soldiers or terrorists do.

[Eki]

Deer do not shoot at you. Opposing soldiers or terrorists do.
Not if you're launching an artillery or a missile attack against a clinic or a school or firing a laser guided missile in a fighter jet or a tank gun against an ambulance or other vehicle. And the enemy doesn't even have anti-aircraft or anti-tank equipment let alone an air force of its own.

[Easy Drifter]

Now Eki just let the nice men in the white coats take you back to your nice padded room.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm sorry but this is not a proper war. This is something more like the conflict in Northern Ireland and no one ever called that a war. War was messy back in the 40's and up until the Gulf war but we have excellent technology these days. I would hazard a guess that anyway you slice it the US have caused a helluva lot less collateral damage in Iraq and Afghanistan. The media have a right to be there and as long as they clearly mark their vehicles the Israeli tosspots should not shoot them unless they actually want to cause civilian deaths which doesn't seem to be a problem for Israeli soldiers. Yes as Rani shows in his video terrorists sometimes does use UN vans or TV vehicles as cover but that doesn't mean that all ambulances or TV vehicles should be shot onsite without investigation......

However you want to slice it this is murder and I fully support Israeli soldiers blowing the crap out of a UN van if they know for certain there are millitants inside, but you can't do this from a distance, all they did was murder innocent people and they should be sentenced in an international court for war crimes.


I said War sucks and is messy. What part of that do you not get? That means you will have friendly fire, journalists targeted by "error" at times and combantants hiding as journalists or Red Cross units. In a fight to the death, Hamas has clearly shown they have no scruples. So why hold only ONE side to a standard you wont hold the other to. I will applaud any efforts to charge any improper use of force such as the events described to bring Isreali's who target civilians or journalists intentionally to justice. I have NO issue with that but unlike you Daniel I hold the Hamas in even lower regard because they have eagerly brought this fight upon the people of Gaza and have NO scruples in hiding behind their own people forcing the Israeli's to make some very uncomfortable decisions. It is a war crime to use a civilian population as cover or as a hostage intentionally. Putting a rocket launcher in a school yard while the kids are inside qualifies I would think? Hamas has done that. Set them up on top of apartment buildings too. Hezbollah did it in their little rocket attacks on Israel until the IDF came up and decided they didn't like being targets no more.

War is messy at the best of times, but when you have one side clearly playing a game of using civilians as cover and doing things like this against the Geneva conventions, don't ignore THAT and then just scream at how unfair it is at the Israeli's.

This whole damn thing is a WAR. It isn't a police action, it isn't a slaughter and it isn't a genocide. It is a war between the state of Israel and the organization of Hamas, who have a charter that states they are for the elimination of all the Jews in Palestine and they will create the Arab state of Palestine when the Jews are out of there. THAT is in their charter in not so many words. Now you can decide which side you want to be on, but the last time I read, Rani, a perfectly average Israeli citizen isn't disputing the wrongs of HIS side in a free manner and is very willing to acknowledge that war crimes must be investigated if there was intentional targeting of civilians by his side. Israeli citizens are free to protest or argue about the tactics without fear of reprisal by their government. Come election time, they can remove their government.

In Gaza, Hamas wouldn't allow any of that. You would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS hear the same thing in a free forum such as this the views from a Hamas supporter that are similar to Rani's in criticizing Hamas. It wouldn't be tolerated. Guess that tells you all you really need to know doesn't it?

[steve_spackman]

Not if you're launching an artillery or a missile attack against a clinic or a school or firing a laser guided missile in a fighter jet or a tank gun against an ambulance or other vehicle. And the enemy doesn't even have anti-aircraft or anti-tank equipment let alone an air force of its own.

Thats due to the fact that Israel is nothing but a bunch of cowards...

As long as the US funds the Israeli war machine there will never be peace in that region...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thing is Donks, that was actually a proper war zone and not some place where Israeli's were going in and shelling any vehicles they saw and gunning down innocent civilians in the street.

To compare the Israeli ethnic cleansing in Gaza to a proper war is in my mind as bad as someone saying there was never a holocaust.


Low blow. Ethnic clensing means to actually CLENSE the area. Last time I looked, about a million and a half Palestinians were still in Gaza. If the Israeli's wanted to wipe them out, they could have easily. You cant say how overpowering the IDF is and then say they were ethnic clensing. If their goal was that, they did a crappy job of it.

It is a proper war. It isn't Israel's fault the idiots who attacked them don't have the arms or ability to make it a fair fight....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thats due to the fact that Israel is nothing but a bunch of cowards...

As long as the US funds the Israeli war machine there will never be peace in that region...


No Steve...there wont be peace until the Palestinians realize they have to share the region with Israel. As usual, you are believing propaganda. AS for cowards...may I remind you that those young men have a lot more to lose than some poor schlub with nothing who thinks violence is a way to meet Allah....and his endless supply of virgins. One shouldn't say anyone is a coward who fights for his country when he would rather be home with his family.

[steve_spackman]

No Steve...there wont be peace until the Palestinians realize they have to share the region with Israel. As usual, you are believing propaganda. AS for cowards...may I remind you that those young men have a lot more to lose than some poor schlub with nothing who thinks violence is a way to meet Allah....and his endless supply of virgins. One shouldn't say anyone is a coward who fights for his country when he would rather be home with his family.

And what propaganda would that be?

this is great Jewish propaganda Mark

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/USENG_homenew

http://www.aipac.org/

[schmenke]

1944 - 1945: The Nazis fire V1 and V2 rockets at London, deliberately targetting civilian areas.
The Allied forces respond by launching an air campaign, targetting strategic areas, specifically the rocket sites.
Thousands of German civilians are killed in the process.
The Allies are considered heroes.

2008 - 2009: Hamas fires rockets at Israel, deliberately targetting civilian areas.
The Israelis respond by launching a military campaign, targetting strategic areas, specifically the rocket sites.
Hundreds of Palestinian civilians are killed in the process.
The Israelis are considered villians.

:dozey:

[steve_spackman]

1944 - 1945: The Nazis fire V1 and V2 rockets at London, deliberately targetting civilian areas.
The Allied forces respond by launching an air campaign, targetting strategic areas, specifically the rocket sites.
Thousands of German civilians are killed in the process.
The Allies are considered heroes.

2008 - 2009: Hamas fires rockets at Israel, deliberately targetting civilian areas.
The Israelis respond by launching a military campaign, targetting strategic areas, specifically the rocket sites.
Hundreds of Palestinian civilians are killed in the process.
The Israelis are considered villians.

:dozey:

quote

American news reports repeatedly describe Israeli military attacks against the Palestinian population as “retaliation.” However, when one looks into the chronology of death in this conflict, the reality turns out to be quite different.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

[Mark in Oshawa]

Steve.....sorry..your link to some left wing propaganda site isn't going to fly. Israel may have blood on its hands but you are very willing to over look the Palestinians role in this as anything but victims and that my friend they ceased to be the second they let the greater Arab agenda dictate how they dealt with the Jewish reality....

[steve_spackman]

Steve.....sorry..your link to some left wing propaganda site isn't going to fly. Israel may have blood on its hands but you are very willing to over look the Palestinians role in this as anything but victims and that my friend they ceased to be the second they let the greater Arab agenda dictate how they dealt with the Jewish reality....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo&eurl=http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/bombghetto.html

It's astonishing that presumably intelligent people could really be this stupid. They accuse Palestinians of hatred and lethal intentions while expressing hatred and lethal intentions towards Palestinians. They bemoan antisemitism, but can't comprehend the connection between Israeli aggression and attacks on innocent Jews.

Given the nearly 100:1 disparity in mortality, the devastation of infrastructure and homes, the blockade of food and medicines, the disruption of water and sewer services and savage attacks on paramedics, doctors, aid convoy workers and other humanitarians, how can any sane person pretend that the Israeli response is proportionate?

Politicians who claim to favour peace and coexistence but stoop to racism, warmongering and polarization, whether Jewish or Muslim, are exactly the problem and prevent a solution.

[steve_spackman]

Dispatches: The Killing Zone

channel 4 production

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/kzone.html

this documentry also talks about the brits and americans that have been killed by the IDF...

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo&eurl=http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/bombghetto.html

It's astonishing that presumably intelligent people could really be this stupid. They accuse Palestinians of hatred and lethal intentions while expressing hatred and lethal intentions towards Palestinians. They bemoan antisemitism, but can't comprehend the connection between Israeli aggression and attacks on innocent Jews.

Given the nearly 100:1 disparity in mortality, the devastation of infrastructure and homes, the blockade of food and medicines, the disruption of water and sewer services and savage attacks on paramedics, doctors, aid convoy workers and other humanitarians, how can any sane person pretend that the Israeli response is proportionate?

Politicians who claim to favour peace and coexistence but stoop to racism, warmongering and polarization, whether Jewish or Muslim, are exactly the problem and prevent a solution.

All is horrible. I wont dispute that the IDF is likely a bit heavy handed in their fighting back but WHO STARTED THIS LATEST CONFLICT??? You do NOT start firing rockets over the border at your neighbour and then wonder why he comes back at you with force to kill you.....

[Rani]

And the enemy doesn't even have anti-aircraft or anti-tank equipment

Yeah they do.




donKey jote[/b]]
btw, is Haaretz considered left-wing in Israel ?

Yes, very much so. Naturally my parents are long time subscribers. :p



steve_spackman[/b]]Thats due to the fact that Israel is nothing but a bunch of cowards...


What deeds of courage have you performed that you throw that adjective around towards people ready to sacrifice their life for the greater good at any given time?

[steve_spackman]

Yeah they do.





Yes, very much so. Naturally my parents are long time subscribers. :p




What deeds of courage have you performed that you throw that adjective around towards people ready to sacrifice their life for the greater good at any given time?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/corrie-articles.html

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/kzone.html

channel 4 documentry

[steve_spackman]

Yeah they do.





Yes, very much so. Naturally my parents are long time subscribers. :p




What deeds of courage have you performed that you throw that adjective around towards people ready to sacrifice their life for the greater good at any given time?

hey watch these videos...


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08videos.html

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/kzone.html

then tell me what you think

[Rani]

hey watch these videos...


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08videos.html

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/kzone.html

then tell me what you think
Serve your country - then tell me what YOU think.

[steve_spackman]

Serve your country - then tell me what YOU think.

i asked you first. But then i know that you will try to feed me a pack of lies, but i can say that i am not one of the people that falls for your countries pathetic propaganda...

You are so quick to preach to the world about the mass slaughter of jews in WW2, but then you do what has been done to you..PATHETIC!!

However there are a great number of Jewish people out there who do have some morals about them and are ashamed at what their country does to the people of Gaza...

[Daniel]

Serve your country - then tell me what YOU think.
Go and spread butter over the genitals of ten hamsters and then tell me what you think.

[Eki]

Yeah they do.

If you consider Molotov Cocktails and IDEs anti-tank weapons and assault rifles anti-aircraft weapons.

[steve_spackman]

Serve your country - then tell me what YOU think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnegTqr-_x8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.informationliberation.com%2F

http://www.informationliberation.com/

[Easy Drifter]

Israel normally puts up with quite a bit of provication before they respond. They did with Gaza with numerous daily rocket and mortar attacks aimed at mostly civilian targets over a long period of time..
Israel also has made it very clear that when they respond it will be with force, not just tit for tat. They always have.
Further as I pointed out when your opponents remove their uniforms and fight in civilian clothes and hide among the civilian population the odds of innocent people being killed rise exportionately.
When you come under fire from an area you blanket that area with return fire. You do not stand there and try and figure out which individuals are shooting and which are not. You do that and you will likely end up dead.
Sure Israel called in artilley and air strikes on buildings they thought were being utilized by Hamas. They did not want to send troops running towards said building while a machine gun cuts them down.
Certainly mistakes were made. Always have. Always will.
And I am sure some Israeli troops and officers were overzealous. A polite way of saying too quick on the shoot or too nasty.
Hopefully they will be properly identified and dealt with.
But when your enemy follows no rules, including fighting according to the Geneva Convention, which includes proper uniforms, it is understandable why some Israelis got carried away.
Hamas started it and when Israel responded innocent lives were lost.
As has been noted rocket and mortar attacks on Israel have started again despite the ceasefire.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Funny Rani, these guys sit in their comfortable British existence and call you a coward. I wouldn't call anyone a coward for defending their home. I may not some of what the IDF has done but not one of them will answer my question who startest this latest outburst in violence and war?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Israel normally puts up with quite a bit of provication before they respond. ..........Hamas started it and when Israel responded innocent lives were lost.
As has been noted rocket and mortar attacks on Israel have started again despite the ceasefire.


Ssssh...it doesn't jive with the Israeli's being the bad guys Drifter..don't bring that up.

[Rani]

If you consider Molotov Cocktails and IDEs anti-tank weapons and assault rifles anti-aircraft weapons.

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/hamas.htm



The Hamas arsenal includes:

Rifles (various) (http://www.weaponsurvey.com/salw.htm)[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Machine guns[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Imported RPGs (hundreds of PG-2 and PG-7 anti-tank rocket launchers, several dozen advanced anti-tank missiles of various types, including Konkurs [AF-5] and Saggers)[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Indigenously produced Yassin RPGs[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Qassam rockets (http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm)[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Mortars (http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm)[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Grad (Katyusha) rockets[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Anti-aircraft weapons[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
IEDs & EFPs (http://www.weaponsurvey.com/landmines.htm)[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]
Night vision equipment[/*:m:4d1hkp6k]

[Rani]

Go and spread butter over the genitals of ten hamsters and then tell me what you think.

Thanks, Daniel!
The forum can always count on you to 'spread' the word on anything you've experienced, good or bad. :champion:
Did you like it yourself so much you've decided to 'spread' the word?

GO Daniel - spread those b*****ds !!! :arrow: :imu: :imu:



Funny Rani, these guys sit in their comfortable British existence and call you a coward. I wouldn't call anyone a coward for defending their home. I may not some of what the IDF has done but not one of them will answer my question who startest this latest outburst in violence and war?


:up:



Israel normally puts up with quite a bit of provication before they respond. They did with Gaza with numerous daily rocket and mortar attacks aimed at mostly civilian targets over a long period of time..
Israel also has made it very clear that when they respond it will be with force, not just tit for tat. They always have.
Further as I pointed out when your opponents remove their uniforms and fight in civilian clothes and hide among the civilian population the odds of innocent people being killed rise exportionately.
When you come under fire from an area you blanket that area with return fire. You do not stand there and try and figure out which individuals are shooting and which are not. You do that and you will likely end up dead.
Sure Israel called in artilley and air strikes on buildings they thought were being utilized by Hamas. They did not want to send troops running towards said building while a machine gun cuts them down.
Certainly mistakes were made. Always have. Always will.
And I am sure some Israeli troops and officers were overzealous. A polite way of saying too quick on the shoot or too nasty.
Hopefully they will be properly identified and dealt with.
But when your enemy follows no rules, including fighting according to the Geneva Convention, which includes proper uniforms, it is understandable why some Israelis got carried away.
Hamas started it and when Israel responded innocent lives were lost.
As has been noted rocket and mortar attacks on Israel have started again despite the ceasefire.


I totally agree.

Various sources say the recent shootings are non Hamas but rather small independant cells. They'll get what they deserve (72 virgins in heaven, of course) eventually.

[steve_spackman]

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/hamas.htm

pro Israeli

[Easy Drifter]

In close quarter street fighting a molotov cocktail dropped on top of an armoured vehicle is a very effective weapon.
In Afganistan IED's have killed and wounded most of the Cdn. troops while in Armoured vehicles.
Incidently Eki this is while the tiny Finnish contingent cowers is a safe part of the country.

[steve_spackman]

Thanks, Daniel!
The forum can always count on you to 'spread' the word on anything you've experienced, good or bad. :champion:
Did you like it yourself so much you've decided to 'spread' the word?

GO Daniel - spread those b*****ds !!! :arrow: :imu: :imu:



:up:



I totally agree.

Various sources say the recent shootings are non Hamas but rather small independant cells. They'll get what they deserve (72 virgins in heaven, of course) eventually.

watch this

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=26483


shouldnt Israel be tried for war crimes? After all germany was

i am talking about all the innocent people Israel has killed..

[Easy Drifter]

Hamas are going to have a tough time finding enough virgins to go around.

[Daniel]

Hamas hav Katyusha rockets!?!?!?!?! You guys should be scared!!!!! They're only like WW2 vintage weapons and they weren't even that great at the time :rolleyes:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Various sources say the recent shootings are non Hamas but rather small independant cells. They'll get what they deserve (72 virgins in heaven, of course) eventually.

Hamas doesn't even control everyone in Gaza as far as creating war is concerned. That is one of the definitions of a failed state. The IDF has to answer to someone for some of their excesses but I can easily think that there will be some accounting and punishment if anyone crossed the line but as I keep telling people, war is messy so it is best not to start one with an enemy that has more resources and a willingness to use them. I guess the Hamas guerillas and irregulars haven't figured that out.

You pick a fight with a bigger guy, don't whine when he kicks the daylights out of you. Hamas is not upset that 1500 Palestinians died by the way, not when it encourages people like Daniel, Steve and Eki to defend them.

[Tomi]

In close quarter street fighting a molotov cocktail dropped on top of an armoured vehicle is a very effective weapon.
In Afganistan IED's have killed and wounded most of the Cdn. troops while in Armoured vehicles.
Incidently Eki this is while the tiny Finnish contingent cowers is a safe part of the country.

dont blame the finnish if your govenment like to send your boys to get killed, its all your own choise :)

[Rani]

Hamas hav Katyusha rockets!?!?!?!?! You guys should be scared!!!!! They're only like WW2 vintage weapons and they weren't even that great at the time :rolleyes:

I don't get it too. What's there to be afraid of a rocket which can kill you if it hits your house or anywhere in your vicinity ? :rolleyes:

Do you grasp the concept of weapons being deadly even when they're primitive?


You'd be scared of a rock if it were about to smash your head, everyone would.
And rocks are way older than Katyushas, They're from as way back as WW1!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hamas hav Katyusha rockets!?!?!?!?! You guys should be scared!!!!! They're only like WW2 vintage weapons and they weren't even that great at the time :rolleyes:


Daniel...if 20 drop on your housing subdivision tell me they wouldn't do horrific damage.

[Rani]

watch this

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=26483


shouldnt Israel be tried for war crimes? After all germany was

i am talking about all the innocent people Israel has killed..

Was the pilot of Enola Gay tried for war crimes?
After all he bombed civilians PURPOSELY.
So did your grand daddy's mates (which you probably refer to as 'the heroes of the Battle of Britain') Who killed at least 25000 INNOCENT PEOPLE ON PURPOSE in Dresden.

May I add civilians killed in Gaza weren't targetted purposely?

Even if they were (which they aren't) you come out a lot worse, buddy.

[Mark in Oshawa]

dont blame the finnish if your govenment like to send your boys to get killed, its all your own choise :)

Well Tomi we don't blame the Finnish. We deplore the whole point of them going to Afghanistan as a military unit if they are not there to actually do something. We deplore every loss and mourn every soldier. Whether we agree on why Canada is involved or not we don't blame the soldier and feel the pain. That said, our country committed to toppling the regime that allowed and harboured the criminal terrorist organization of Al Qaeda which for no reason other than their own twisted logic killed over 3000 people on 9/11 and 37 of them were Canadian citizens. So we are part of trying to quell the Taliban to give a poor imporvished nation a chance to rebuild and form sort of government that will at the very least not allow terrorists to hide behind its civilian population.

Now if Finland buys into the fact NATO is there, it would really be helpful if they shared in some of the nasty parts rather than just being there in name only but I know many soft left democracies tend to get squemish when there is actual fighting ( god knows the Canadian army was put out of harms way by our chicken livered leaders on and off over the last 40 years ) but every nation if they want to talk about freedom should be prepared to actually fight for the princple of it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh yes...and before anyone makes this as an attack on the Finn's, it isn't really. It is on the concept of sending a military to a possible war zone and give them unmilitary roles. Canada did it for years on "peacekeeping" missions. I have no doubt the Finnish soldier and military are professional and willing to fight for their country if they have to, the same way Canada's military has.

[donKey jote]

Hamas has clearly shown they have no scruples. So why hold only ONE side to a standard you wont hold the other to.

speaking for myself here:
Hamas are terrorists and have no scruples. Why should Israel use this as an excuse to lose their scruples? They're supposed to be the good guys ! I'm sorry to see them lose the moral high ground and show such an utter disregard for human life.

People yab on about Hamas holding the civilian population hostage... well isn't Israel using the civilian population as blackmail, by openly proclaiming a disproportionate retaliation and placing the blame for any collateral on Hamas?
Absolutely immoral in my book, as was Bomber Harris and Hiroshima/Nagasaki for that matter.

[Rani]

speaking for myself here:
Hamas are terrorists and have no scruples. Why should Israel use this as an excuse to lose their scruples? They're supposed to be the good guys ! I'm sorry to see them lose the moral high ground and show such an utter disregard for human life.

People yab on about Hamas holding the civilian population hostage... well isn't Israel using the civilian population as blackmail, by openly proclaiming a disproportionate retaliation and placing the blame for any collateral on Hamas?
Absolutely immoral in my book, as was Bomber Harris and Hiroshima/Nagasaki for that matter.
Disproportionate retaliation towards Hamas. I think they do hold the blame for placing their bases in highly populated areas purposely. Did you know Israel phones and SMS's locals before large Hamas compounds are hit?

I'd say that is very moral as it makes sure Hamas operatives leave as well (of course they hear the warnings too). It lessens the military achievment in the purpose of saving innocent people.

[steve_spackman]

Even if they were (which they aren't) you come out a lot worse, buddy.

how so?

[donKey jote]

Disproportionate retaliation towards Hamas... fair enough.
But 1300 dead, with or without phones and SMS.
Placing the sole blame for the civilian deaths on Hamas is almost like a rapist blaming the woman for wearing a miniskirt... "I couldn't help myself".

[steve_spackman]

Disproportionate retaliation towards Hamas. I think they do hold the blame for placing their bases in highly populated areas purposely. Did you know Israel phones and SMS's locals before large Hamas compounds are hit?

I'd say that is very moral as it makes sure Hamas operatives leave as well (of course they hear the warnings too). It lessens the military achievment in the purpose of saving innocent people.

oh the IDF have morals..shooting and killing brits and americans in the head or running them over with bulldozers..yes very high morals indeed

[Rani]

how so?

Your RAF is responsible for a hell of a lot more innocent death (which I remind was completely purposeful - unlike operation cast lead) yet you don't seem to mind it as much.

This makes you a hypocrite.

[steve_spackman]

Your RAF is responsible for a hell of a lot more innocent death (which I remind was completely purposeful - unlike operation cast lead) yet you don't seem to mind it as much.

This makes you a hypocrite.

Ah that was during the World War when us brits and others were the ones whom helped you jews out...

[Easy Drifter]

Note: War is Hell

[steve_spackman]

Note: War is Hell

What is going on in Gaza is not war..

[donKey jote]

You are a despicable excuse for a human being at the very best.
...
Go and spread butter over the genitals of ten hamsters and then tell me what you think.
Daniel, do cut the crap please :dozey:

[donKey jote]

What is going on in Gaza is not war..
not in the conventional sense - one country's army fighting another in a declared war.

Take your pick from:
War on terror
Civil War

[Rani]

Ah that was during the World War when us brits and others were the ones whom helped you jews out...

I see you justify intentional tagetting of woman and children, yet compare Israel to the Nazis when people in Gaza are mistakenly harmed.

You see how the standards in which you judge Israel and your own country are different?

Again, this makes you a hypocrite.

[Rani]

What is going on in Gaza is not war..
Not any less of a war than what your soldiers are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that isn't even to defend your borders (not that I object to this).

I know what is going in there. It's war.

[steve_spackman]

I see you justify intentional tagetting of woman and children, yet compare Israel to the Nazis when people in Gaza are mistakenly harmed.

You see how the standards in which you judge Israel and your own country are different?

Again, this makes you a hypocrite.

well for your info mate, i did think that the attack on dresden was very much a bad move...just like what happened to the people in the death camps in germany..

[Rani]

well for your info mate, i did think that the attack on dresden was very much a bad move...just like what happened to your fellow cult members in the death camps in germany..

Just like when the US dropped the nuclear bombs on japan...

So now it's not ok?

I see cracks in your armor...


Judasim is a religion. I might add it's the religion which sprouted the biggest religion in the world, or is that one a cult also?

[steve_spackman]

So now it's not ok?

I see cracks in your armor...


Judasim is a religion. I might add it's the religion which sprouted the biggest religion in the world, or is that one a cult also?

no matter what religion it is..its a cult

[steve_spackman]

Not any less of a war than what your soldiers are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that isn't even to defend your borders (not that I object to this).

I know what is going in there. It's war.

i dont support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

[Easy Drifter]

If Judasim is a cult so is The Roman Catholic Church, The Greek Orthadox Chuch, The Church of England, Muslim, Buddahism, Hinduism and every other religion.
Although I am not sure just how the Lutheran Church fits in as according to Eki it is Dept. of the Govt. of Finland

[Rani]

i dont support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

Then if I were you I'd worry about the innocent Afghans and Iraqis the government you elected has killed in your name and for your protection before I'd worry about Israel fighting Hamas terrorists which are about as far from where I am as Blackpool is far from Preston.

How far are you from Jalalabad?
How about Tikrit?

Go and judge your own miitary before you judge others.

[Easy Drifter]

Well that makes Steve's position much clearer.
He is a supporter of Terrorism.

[steve_spackman]

Then if I were you I'd worry about the innocent Afghans and Iraqis the government you elected has killed in your name and for your protection before I'd worry about Israel fighting Hamas terrorists which are about as far from where I am as Blackpool is far from Preston.

How far are you from Jalalabad?
How about Tikrit?

Go and judge your own miitary before you judge others.

i didnt elect Gordon Brown...

[steve_spackman]

Well that makes Steve's position much clearer.
He is a supporter of Terrorism.

i am not a supporter of Terrorism

[steve_spackman]

If Judasim is a cult so is The Roman Catholic Church, The Greek Orthadox Chuch, The Church of England, Muslim, Buddahism, Hinduism and every other religion.
Although I am not sure just how the Lutheran Church fits in as according to Eki it is Dept. of the Govt. of Finland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_(religious_practice)

[Easy Drifter]

Oh?

[steve_spackman]

Then if I were you I'd worry about the innocent Afghans and Iraqis the government you elected has killed in your name and for your protection before I'd worry about Israel fighting Hamas terrorists which are about as far from where I am as Blackpool is far from Preston.

How far are you from Jalalabad?
How about Tikrit?

Go and judge your own miitary before you judge others.

One thing that divides our armed forces to yours...we dont fight dirty

[Eki]

not in the conventional sense - one country's army fighting another in a declared war.

Take your pick from:
War on terror
Civil War
I think the closest equivalent would be the American Indian Wars, where they squeezed the natives into barren waste land reservations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Wars

[Eki]

Although I am not sure just how the Lutheran Church fits in as according to Eki it is Dept. of the Govt. of Finland
For most Finns it's mainly a habit (or a tradition, if you put it nicely). I wouldn't move to another country for the Lutheran religion/cult. I can't understand why Israel attracts Jews like honey attracts ants. I don't have much interest in Wurtemberg, the birthplace of the Lutheran religion/cult.

[Mark in Oshawa]

i am not a supporter of Terrorism

I think you support Hamas. Last time I looked, they were the same people firing rockets in to civilian areas for 3 months before the IDF decided to go to war with them. THAT's terrorism ( the rockets on civilians ) . How about the teens they conned into being suicide bombers to blow themselves up at Israeli checkpoints (which of course were set up to STOP suicide bombers). Listen Steve, you sound like a guy who thinks the underdog has a point in this game and maybe on some level they do, but at least open up your eyes to realize the people you are defending by NOT being as critical with (Hamas) are terrorists. They may have some form of organization and they were elected in Gaza (how much dubious pressure was given to the people of Gaza to vote for them we will never know) but they are still in my mind the bad guys here.

Israeli forces have been a little heavy handed (in war....any time a civilian is killed through collateral damage or intentional targeting, it is a bad thing) but they didn't start this latest uprising. Israel never shoots first, they just make damn sure the other side gets it worse than they do. And they don't care you don't like them BTW, they like to just win.....which in any war is the whole point of it isn't it? Let the Israeli government defend or not defend what their military does but their first job is to protect their country from attack, which isn't a theoretical exercise like it is in the UK or Canada.

[donKey jote]

So how long has the Israeli Gov been winning for... how long have they lived in peace? how long have the rockets been silent ?
Since when is retaliation protection from attack ? Has previous retaliation stopped the attacks in any way ?

Cast lead is in my view nothing more than an unscrupulous show of raw power and disregard of human life, with the sole purpose of sending the post-Bush world a message and rally the hardliners together in time to get reelected next week.

All those dead and injured, yet Hamas is still there, the tunnels are still there... tell me again exactly what Israel has won, that it couldn't have won in a more civilised manner.

[Tomi]

tell me again exactly what Israel has won, that it couldn't have won in a more civilised manner.

Propably nothing, except maybe they made a few banjo players happy.

[Hondo]

I think the closest equivalent would be the American Indian Wars, where they squeezed the natives into barren waste land reservations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Wars

Only because we couldn't kill them off fast enough. Sooner or later, no matter who you're up against, people are going to start feeling sorry for the underdog and make you back off.

Instead, we did the next best thing. We put them under the protection of the US government with the government providing everything they needed to exist. Within a couple of generations they were completely dependent on government handouts to live, much like modern welfare. The government probably could've withdrawn support and finally wiped them out but waited too long. The Indians, unlike the modern white man, figured out they could do better on their own than what crumbs the government tossed them and started opening casinos on tribal lands. Now they scalp the white man on a regular basis and the silly b@st@rds just line up for more. The Indian casinos are run by the tribal councils, that is, the indian government. It's one of the few governments that makes and distributes it's own revenues and doesn't rely on taxation.

If Hamas was smart, they'd learn from the Indians and turn their coastline into a tourist beach front mecca for the tourist trade. In a couple of years, they could buy Israel or at least buy a bus ticket for anyone wanting to leave town before the next shoot'in match.

[steve_spackman]

I think you support Hamas. Last time I looked, they were the same people firing rockets in to civilian areas for 3 months before the IDF decided to go to war with them. THAT's terrorism ( the rockets on civilians ) . How about the teens they conned into being suicide bombers to blow themselves up at Israeli checkpoints (which of course were set up to STOP suicide bombers). Listen Steve, you sound like a guy who thinks the underdog has a point in this game and maybe on some level they do, but at least open up your eyes to realize the people you are defending by NOT being as critical with (Hamas) are terrorists. They may have some form of organization and they were elected in Gaza (how much dubious pressure was given to the people of Gaza to vote for them we will never know) but they are still in my mind the bad guys here.

Israeli forces have been a little heavy handed (in war....any time a civilian is killed through collateral damage or intentional targeting, it is a bad thing) but they didn't start this latest uprising. Israel never shoots first, they just make damn sure the other side gets it worse than they do. And they don't care you don't like them BTW, they like to just win.....which in any war is the whole point of it isn't it? Let the Israeli government defend or not defend what their military does but their first job is to protect their country from attack, which isn't a theoretical exercise like it is in the UK or Canada.

i dont support Hamas...

[chuck34]

So how long has the Israeli Gov been winning for... how long have they lived in peace? how long have the rockets been silent ?
Since when is retaliation protection from attack ? Has previous retaliation stopped the attacks in any way ?

Cast lead is in my view nothing more than an unscrupulous show of raw power and disregard of human life, with the sole purpose of sending the post-Bush world a message and rally the hardliners together in time to get reelected next week.

All those dead and injured, yet Hamas is still there, the tunnels are still there... tell me again exactly what Israel has won, that it couldn't have won in a more civilised manner.

So tell me what Israel has gotten in all their land for peace deals? Take a look at the map of Israel right after the '67 war and take a look at one now. Notice how much Israel has given up in the name of peace. What has it gotten them? More rockets raining down on them. At some point (I guess now) they have to say "enough is enough". Sure the Israelis have not been angels over the years, but what exactly have the "Palistenians" given up?

[Mark in Oshawa]

So how long has the Israeli Gov been winning for... how long have they lived in peace? how long have the rockets been silent ?
Since when is retaliation protection from attack ? Has previous retaliation stopped the attacks in any way ?

Cast lead is in my view nothing more than an unscrupulous show of raw power and disregard of human life, with the sole purpose of sending the post-Bush world a message and rally the hardliners together in time to get reelected next week.

All those dead and injured, yet Hamas is still there, the tunnels are still there... tell me again exactly what Israel has won, that it couldn't have won in a more civilised manner.

You do realize of course that to try to "negotiate" with Hamas would likely give them exactly the same result save the fact Hamas would have MORE rockets and more ways to attack.

Donkey, it is a mess but please always keep in mind what Hamas has as their goal. They started this latest uprising knowing damned well what Israel would do and they did it ANYHOW. Now if you want to defend that, be my guest but I wont feel sympathy for them. I feel sympathy for the man on the street and those killed in the crossfire but it was Hamas that started the rocket attacks in the fall hoping for this response and you like many in the west just choose to chastise Israel for being too nasty in responding. Israel is following the dictum that there is no polite way to win a war, but there is only one way to WIN. Now you say they haven't won. You are right...because if they wanted peace they have two options. Wipe Gaza out entirely (provoking a much larger conflict potentially) and raise HEAPS of abuse from everyone including me, or negotiate. They have tried and tried and tried to talk to someone sane on the other side. When there is, terms are found. Jordan and Egypt are proof of that. When not, the fighting restarts. Hamas didn't have to start launching rockets last fall...why not tell them to negotiate? Where is their record of sitting down with their enemies. Read their charter....they want Israel GONE. That is a non starter my friend...

[Hondo]

Let them fight it out. Stop interferring. When Hamas realizes no one is going to step in and save them, feed them, and rebuild the damage, they'll be more careful with their rockets.

[steve_spackman]

You do realize of course that to try to "negotiate" with Hamas would likely give them exactly the same result save the fact Hamas would have MORE rockets and more ways to attack.

Donkey, it is a mess but please always keep in mind what Hamas has as their goal. They started this latest uprising knowing damned well what Israel would do and they did it ANYHOW. Now if you want to defend that, be my guest but I wont feel sympathy for them. I feel sympathy for the man on the street and those killed in the crossfire but it was Hamas that started the rocket attacks in the fall hoping for this response and you like many in the west just choose to chastise Israel for being too nasty in responding. Israel is following the dictum that there is no polite way to win a war, but there is only one way to WIN. Now you say they haven't won. You are right...because if they wanted peace they have two options. Wipe Gaza out entirely (provoking a much larger conflict potentially) and raise HEAPS of abuse from everyone including me, or negotiate. They have tried and tried and tried to talk to someone sane on the other side. When there is, terms are found. Jordan and Egypt are proof of that. When not, the fighting restarts. Hamas didn't have to start launching rockets last fall...why not tell them to negotiate? Where is their record of sitting down with their enemies. Read their charter....they want Israel GONE. That is a non starter my friend...

Why in the world should Hamas recognize Israel, or renounce violence, when Israel refuses to do the same in return? Is this anything more than two opposing fundamentalist ideologies, with one backed by high-tech weaponry and a pile of cash, and the other disarmed, forced into ghettos and virtual bantustans? The terrorists are indistinguishable from each other.

Israel has never lived up to its two conditions of admittance to the UN. 1. Right of Return for the refugees 2. agreement for the internationalization of Jerusalem under UN control. As reported in Haaretz by Barak Ravid: "Mitchell told Israeli officials that the new administration was committed to Israel's security, to the road map, and to the 2004 letter by president George W. Bush stating Palestinian refugees would not return to Israel and the border between Israel and the Palestinian Authority would take into consideration facts on the ground, meaning large settlement blocs would remain in Israeli hands." So we are looking at same old, same old, as our leaders and Israel's hope to beat Palestinians into accepting puppet leader Abbas or similar replacement.

[Eki]

Only because we couldn't kill them off fast enough. Sooner or later, no matter who you're up against, people are going to start feeling sorry for the underdog and make you back off.

That's what's happened to Palestine. At least most Europeans have started to feel sorry for the Palestinians and want Israel to back off.

[schmenke]

... When Hamas realizes no one is going to step in and save them, feed them, and rebuild the damage, they'll be more careful with their rockets.

Hamas will always have supporters, both idealogical and financial :dozey:

[schmenke]

...2. agreement for the internationalization of Jerusalem under UN control. ...

That agreement was never in place. It was only ever one of many suggestions by the UN. Even the Arabs rejected that idea.

[donKey jote]

Now if you want to defend that, be my guest but I wont feel sympathy for them. I feel sympathy for the man on the street and those killed in the crossfire but it was Hamas that started the rocket attacks in the fall hoping for this response and you like many in the west just choose to chastise Israel for being too nasty in responding.

I don't want to defend that. I have never defended Hamas doing jihad or whatever against Israel nor do I intend to.
But when "the man on the street and those killed in the crossfire" amount to >600 civilians, I choose to chastise Israel for lowering it's moral standards, yes. And of course I lay the blame on he who pulls the trigger -Hamas for Israeli deaths and Israel for the Gazan deaths-, just as I would blame the wife batterer no matter how much he warned his wife not to answer back.

I simply question the necessity, the timing and the results of cast lead, that's all.
Elections on Feb 10th.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[donKey jote]

but what exactly have the "Palistenians" given up?
hope?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

[chuck34]

hope?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

Ok so let me get this straight. The UN sets up two states (one Jewish, one Arab) in British controled Palestine. The "Palestinians" reject this out of hand and start fighting the Jewish Israelis. The Jewish Israelis kick the crap out of them, just like all their Arab bretheren said they would. Then the "Palestinians" have no where to go because the other Arab nations don't want the FOOLS that picked a fight they were told they could not win. So now I'm supposed to feel sorry for them as refugees? Why doesn't Egypt take them? or Jordan? or Syria? or Iran? Because they all know that these people are trouble makers.

Sure they should be allowed to return. I won't deny that, but I don't really feel too sorry for them. There are consequences to actions.

And this does not answer my question of what have they given up? They lost a fight they picked. That's not really a concession in a negotiation, is it?

[donKey jote]

Why doesn't Egypt take them? or Jordan? or Syria? or Iran? Because they all know that these people are trouble makers.

Jordan 1,827,877 refugees
Syria 432,048 refugees
Lebanon 404,170 refugees
Saudi Arabia 240,000 refugees
Egypt 70,245 refugees
[2005 data from the UN, as quoted in the links above]

Iran isn't quoted... maybe they simply don't like arabs that much :dozey:

for completeness:
Israel 1,413,300
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

[chuck34]

Jordan 1,827,877 refugees
Syria 432,048 refugees
Lebanon 404,170 refugees
Saudi Arabia 240,000 refugees
Egypt 70,245 refugees
[2005 data from the UN, as quoted in the links above]

Iran isn't quoted... maybe they simply don't like arabs that much :dozey:

for completeness:
Israel 1,413,300
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

By "take" I ment becoming full citzens of that country.

You still haven't answered the question of what have the Pali's given up?

[donKey jote]

By "take" I ment becoming full citzens of that country.
Look at Jordan again, if you care to read... for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan .




You still haven't answered the question of what have the Pali's given up?
If by not answering you mean not writing your "answer" then no in your eyes I haven't ?
You haven't answered the questions in the original post of mine you quoted either ?

Add your last sentence to your sig to save you typing ? Why don't you.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why in the world should Hamas recognize Israel, or renounce violence, when Israel refuses to do the same in return? Is this anything more than two opposing fundamentalist ideologies, with one backed by high-tech weaponry and a pile of cash, and the other disarmed, forced into ghettos and virtual bantustans? The terrorists are indistinguishable from each other.

Why should they recognize them? Simple, they are not going to beat them unless of course you consider victory with millions dead. Israel will recognize their state and take peace as the alternative. It would be a lot better for Israel to have trade with a stable state on its borders and mean not having to spend millions in wasteful and controversial military actions. Only an IDIOT would advocate the status quo is good for Israel. But they cannot give up the defense of their nation when Hamas and Hezbollah are both funded by Iran, a nation bent on killing every Jew they can find. By the way, if you want to keep saying Israel is the same as the Hamas fighters except better armed, that is typical moral equivalence. Only thing is, it is a false thing to try to claim here.

Arafat in the Oslo accords was offered peace, 95% of the land he wanted (Israel would have had to move a lot of their settlements out of the West Bank and Gaza to make that happen.) Arafat was offered money, and Arafat was only to guarntee the attacks on Israeli civilians would stop as a policy of the Palestinian state. Arafat REFUSED because he knew Hamas would roast him alive. Arafat had everything save for parts of Jerusalem. That was likely because of the nature of the city and Israel has always been open to Arab's visiting their sites in the city. Now if Arafat wasn't going to go through with this peace overture with Israel, why should the Israeli's have a lot of faith in Hamas? They gave up their Gaza settlements as a good faith measure. Hamas just moved the rocket launchers closer and the Palestinians moved in trashing the old Kibbutzes and ripping them apart. Pretty dumb for a refugee society needing all the buildings it could get eh? But that is what the Israeli's are looking at. They are looking at a society so filled with hate that they cannot let their guard down. Whenever they have in the past, the violence from the Palestinians starts up. How do you negotiate with THAT? You cant negoiate peace with people who want to wipe you out. Their M.O. has changed little since 1947 but the result is the same. They keep losing and they keep losing civilians caught in the crossfire. As they say about about fools, only a fool keeps trying the same failing strategy over and over again and expecting a different result.


Israel has never lived up to its two conditions of admittance to the UN. 1. Right of Return for the refugees 2. agreement for the internationalization of Jerusalem under UN control. As reported in Haaretz by Barak Ravid: "Mitchell told Israeli officials that the new administration was committed to Israel's security, to the road map, and to the 2004 letter by president George W. Bush stating Palestinian refugees would not return to Israel and the border between Israel and the Palestinian Authority would take into consideration facts on the ground, meaning large settlement blocs would remain in Israeli hands." So we are looking at same old, same old, as our leaders and Israel's hope to beat Palestinians into accepting puppet leader Abbas or similar replacement.

As it was pointed out...this was refused. As the numbers showed as well, Israel took in 1.4 million of the refugees and there is a large Arab community living in Israel peacefully. If this was a genocidal thing where the Jews wanted Palestinians dead, why would they have 1.4 million of them living much more freely than in any other Arab nation in the area?

Should Bush agree to the settlements staying put and the right of return to be negated? Well first off he wasn't calling the shots, secondly this was based on the fact that after 50 plus years of occupation in a lot of this area, it was clear that many of the Palestinians left had no more direct claim to that land than I would. Most of the original land owners are dead. A smarter play by a rational Palestinian authority would be to negotiate a monetary sum in return for the loss of land and make the cost high. I bet the Israeli's would pay it...

[chuck34]

If by not answering you mean not writing your "answer" then no in your eyes I haven't ?
You haven't answered the questions in the original post of mine you quoted either ?


Any answer would do. If you think "Hope" is an answer then we've got a Pres for you. But seriously, they obviously haven't given up hope if they are trying to get back to their "homeland" and/or firing rockets at people to drive them away. So you're gonna have to try harder on that one. The Israelis have given up land, allowed the Pali's to have some autonomy in their (Israelis) territory, on and on. Perhaps the Pali's could meet them half way and give up something concrete, like I don't know, maybe acknowlege that Israel has the right to exist? I'm not expecting you to give me my "answer" just something a little more plausable than "Hope"

I have no idea what question you asked me. I'm a little slow so take it easy on me.

Are you referring to your question to Mark about the timing of Cast Lead?

If so then the timing was easy. There was a cease fire that lasted until sometime in Dec. (I can look up the exact date if you would like). About a month before that Hamas started shooting rockets at Israeli towns. Israel put up with it until the cease fire ended in hopes that they could work something out. Negotiations broke down, Israel had enough, and took care of buisness. Nothing to do with elections.

[Mark in Oshawa]

?

If so then the timing was easy. There was a cease fire that lasted until sometime in Dec. (I can look up the exact date if you would like). About a month before that Hamas started shooting rockets at Israeli towns. Israel put up with it until the cease fire ended in hopes that they could work something out. Negotiations broke down, Israel had enough, and took care of buisness. Nothing to do with elections.

This here is the whole reason why I am not too sympathtic to the Palestinian arguments many on here have been giving. There was a form of peace being negotiated and the Hamas organization started with the attacks first. Whatever one might think of how Israel does or doesn't negotiate, they didn't start this latest bunfight. The arguments that Donkey and others state saying it wouldn't defend a man hitting his wife if he warned her not to nag doesn't hold water.

It isn't that I think Israel couldn't handle things better, I do think at some level they could, but if I was a Palestinian I certainly would see any military action against Israel a foolish gambit. You do NOT provoke a war willingly against a foe that has materials, money and weaponry, not to mention a lot more men to fight with. Sun Tzu in the Art of War doesn't advocate anywhere going to war with a far superior enemy. I guess Hamas doesn't go for ancient Chinese war theory.

If the Palestinians want to win something, he is how they do it. They lay down all arms. They advocate a mediator agreeable to both sides to come in and they negotiate a peace based on these terms: In recognition of Israel's right to security and to exist, the Palestinians would in turn get monetary compenstation of some form for lands lost in 1947. They would get military peacekeepers from nations agreeable to both sides to enforce the transition. They would get the lands in the West Bank (with the exception of Jerusalem, THAT would require additional negotiations) and Gaza 100%. They would get free trade with Israel. They would get an open port out of Gaza without Israeli military interference and they would guarntee their security of the border with Israel by prosecuting HEAVILY any incursion of suicide bombers.

The Israeli's would have to give up land, their settlements in the West Bank, a HUGE sum of money and a loss of sovreignty in that their defense would have to be partially entrusted to a 3rd party. Both sides would have some skin in the game and I lay you money that something close to this would fly with most Israeli's (Rani, any comment?) The cost of constantly going to limited wars against Hezbollah and Hamas is more expensive than my peace proposal.

Of course...this wont happen because Hamas wont accept any peace that allows Israel to exist and Hezbollah would turn on their Palestinian allies in a heart beat. This is the true problem here. Arab pride and stubborness after 60 plus years is still refusing to admit that they lost all those times to the Jewish state and they wont leave it alone. Peace is lost in Islamic hatred towards the Jewish state. Iran has been fueling this for years as well as some Arab states on and off but at least Jordan and Egypt got peace with Israel based on a lot of the same tenats I gave above.

I don't believe for a second any rational Israeli wants to keep fighting limited wars every 3 years but they will do it to NOT be attacked. If they turn the other cheek, the violence deterioriates until the population dictates they be defended by their government. So they go in and become the bad guy for a conflict that they just want to go away. We all can agree on that...the fighting HAS to stop. We just cant decide or agree how it will.

[Eki]

This here is the whole reason why I am not too sympathtic to the Palestinian arguments many on here have been giving. There was a form of peace being negotiated and the Hamas organization started with the attacks first. Whatever one might think of how Israel does or doesn't negotiate, they didn't start this latest bunfight. The arguments that Donkey and others state saying it wouldn't defend a man hitting his wife if he warned her not to nag doesn't hold water.

It isn't that I think Israel couldn't handle things better, I do think at some level they could, but if I was a Palestinian I certainly would see any military action against Israel a foolish gambit. You do NOT provoke a war willingly against a foe that has materials, money and weaponry, not to mention a lot more men to fight with. Sun Tzu in the Art of War doesn't advocate anywhere going to war with a far superior enemy. I guess Hamas doesn't go for ancient Chinese war theory.


A wife who continues to nag after being warned doesn't go for ancient Chinese war theory either. Neither does a political prisoner who hadn't kept his mouth shut after being warned by a tyrannical government.

[Easy Drifter]

And the Finnish Hamas blathers on and on.

[Eki]

And the Finnish Hamas blathers on and on.
I can't let the Canadian branch of World Zionist Organization do all the blathering.

[Easy Drifter]

You obviously are incapable of understanding what people write. I do not agree with a lot of what Israel has done which you would realize if you could comprehend what I have written.
You are the one who has said Israel has no right to exist.
That sure sounds like the Hamas position to me.

Although confirmed in the Church of England (Anglican) I am an agnostic.

[Eki]

You obviously are incapable of understanding what people write. I do not agree with a lot of what Israel has done which you would realize if you could comprehend what I have written.
You are the one who has said Israel has no right to exist.
That sure sounds like the Hamas position to me.

Although confirmed in the Church of England (Anglican) I am an agnostic.

And you say Israel has the right to exist. Sounds like the Zionist position to me.

[schmenke]

I think what Drifter and most of us are saying is that both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist.

Recognising this makes us neither Zionists or Hamas supporters.

[Easy Drifter]

Correct.

[donKey jote]

correct.



Whatever one might think of how Israel does or doesn't negotiate, they didn't start this latest bunfight.
No matter who started, Israel alone is responsible for it's disproportionate retaliation.
Recognising this doesn't make anyone a Hamas supporter either.

[Rani]

If the Palestinians want to win something, he is how they do it. They lay down all arms. They advocate a mediator agreeable to both sides to come in and they negotiate a peace based on these terms: In recognition of Israel's right to security and to exist, the Palestinians would in turn get monetary compenstation of some form for lands lost in 1947. They would get military peacekeepers from nations agreeable to both sides to enforce the transition. They would get the lands in the West Bank (with the exception of Jerusalem, THAT would require additional negotiations) and Gaza 100%. They would get free trade with Israel. They would get an open port out of Gaza without Israeli military interference and they would guarntee their security of the border with Israel by prosecuting HEAVILY any incursion of suicide bombers.

The Israeli's would have to give up land, their settlements in the West Bank, a HUGE sum of money and a loss of sovreignty in that their defense would have to be partially entrusted to a 3rd party. Both sides would have some skin in the game and I lay you money that something close to this would fly with most Israeli's (Rani, any comment?) The cost of constantly going to limited wars against Hezbollah and Hamas is more expensive than my peace proposal.

Of course...this wont happen because Hamas wont accept any peace that allows Israel to exist and Hezbollah would turn on their Palestinian allies in a heart beat. This is the true problem here. Arab pride and stubborness after 60 plus years is still refusing to admit that they lost all those times to the Jewish state and they wont leave it alone. Peace is lost in Islamic hatred towards the Jewish state. Iran has been fueling this for years as well as some Arab states on and off but at least Jordan and Egypt got peace with Israel based on a lot of the same tenats I gave above.

I don't believe for a second any rational Israeli wants to keep fighting limited wars every 3 years but they will do it to NOT be attacked. If they turn the other cheek, the violence deterioriates until the population dictates they be defended by their government. So they go in and become the bad guy for a conflict that they just want to go away. We all can agree on that...the fighting HAS to stop. We just cant decide or agree how it will.

I'd certainly go for it, I'd go further calling it a dream come true.




correct.





Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=584781#post584781)
Whatever one might think of how Israel does or doesn't negotiate, they didn't start this latest bunfight.


No matter who started, Israel alone is responsible for it's disproportionate retaliation.
Recognising this doesn't make anyone a Hamas supporter either.



This disproproportionate retaliation will make anyone think twice about attacking Israel in the future, so I think it saves bloodshed for both sides in the future.

[schmenke]

I don't think that the disproportionate retaliation is the issue so much as the IDF's perceived disregard for civilian casualties in the process.

[Eki]

This disproproportionate retaliation will make anyone think twice about attacking Israel in the future, so I think it saves bloodshed for both sides in the future.
Genius. That's like saying the Holocaust has saved bloodshed later. Maybe it has, I don't know, at least there hasn't been a war in most of Europe since. But that's not the point. The point is that it's not right to kill someone just in case it might or might not save someone else's life in the future. Besides, has disproportionate retaliation prevented Hamas and Hezbollah from attacking before? I don't think so. It has just given the Palestinians more reasons to retaliate.

[Roamy]

Genius. That's like saying the Holocaust has saved bloodshed later. Maybe it has, I don't know, at least there hasn't been a war in most of Europe since. But that's not the point. The point is that it's not right to kill someone just in case it might or might not save someone else's life in the future. Besides, has disproportionate retaliation prevented Hamas and Hezbollah from attacking before? I don't think so. It has just given the Palestinians more reasons to retaliate.

what a crock of sh!t The Islamic Republic of Europe has not been attacked since WW2 because of all the protection you get. Why fight when you can just move in!!

[Easy Drifter]

The Finnish Hamas leader babbles on.

[Daniel]

what a crock of sh!t The Islamic Republic of Europe has not been attacked since WW2 because of all the protection you get. Why fight when you can just move in!!
Well I hope there are lots of kiddies to go around in the land of the Paedophile :)

[donKey jote]

Err... Daniel, what's Belgium got to do with it ? :p :

[donKey jote]

I don't think that the disproportionate retaliation is the issue so much as the IDF's perceived disregard for civilian casualties in the process.

Precisely...
I could understand (and possibly even support) disproportionate retaliation against proven terrorists engaged in hostilities. (without getting into the one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter spin :dozey: )
I'm against using civilian casualties as a warning for said terrorists to think twice in the future. a) it's absolutely immoral even for an atheist with no morals like me ;) , and b) if it hasn't worked in the past, why should it now ?


Just 5 days to election time. :dozey:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[steve_spackman]

I'd certainly go for it, I'd go further calling it a dream come true.




This disproproportionate retaliation will make anyone think twice about attacking Israel in the future, so I think it saves bloodshed for both sides in the future.


http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11800

Unusually Large U.S. Weapons Shipment to Israel: Are the US and Israel Planning a Broader Middle East War?

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11743

[Roamy]

sounds like bunkerbusters to me

[Eki]

I hope they'll sail past Somalia. It's better that Somali pirates will get the cargo than Israel.

[Hondo]

Somalia won't want them. Bunkerbusters have to be dropped from altitude. Pushing one off the top of a camel ain't high enough.

[Eki]

Somalia won't want them. Bunkerbusters have to be dropped from altitude. Pushing one off the top of a camel ain't high enough.
That's exactly why it's better that the Somali pirates get them than Israel. They can't use them, Israel can.

[Rani]

"UN says Hamas stole aid packages":

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/02/04/65696.html

I even put forth an arab source so spackman couldn't claim bias towards Israel.

It seems the world now knows what wev'e known for long. Hamas isn't interested in the welfare of the palestinian public, but rather in the harming of the jewish enemy.

[Eki]

"UN says Hamas stole aid packages":

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/02/04/65696.html

I even put forth an arab source so spackman couldn't claim bias towards Israel.

It seems the world now knows what wev'e known for long. Hamas isn't interested in the welfare of the palestinian public, but rather in the harming of the jewish enemy.
When they reported that on Finnish TV news, they said Hamas wants the UN to deliver aid to all Palestinians, not just to those with an official refugee status, like they're doing now. So, maybe Hamas was acting as Robin Hood and spreading the aid to broader masses.

[steve_spackman]

"UN says Hamas stole aid packages":

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/02/04/65696.html

I even put forth an arab source so spackman couldn't claim bias towards Israel.

It seems the world now knows what wev'e known for long. Hamas isn't interested in the welfare of the palestinian public, but rather in the harming of the jewish enemy.

yeah yeah Rani

Nice try mate, but i saw this on the news a day or 2 ago..And yes i think thats pathetic what they did

[Rani]

So, maybe Hamas was acting as Robin Hood and spreading the aid to broader masses.
Seems more likely they give more of it to their supporters, whilst starving everyone else.

Don't you think a 'neutral' organization would do a better job of distributing this food in a fairer manner than a political party/terrorist organization?




yeah yeah Rani

Nice try mate,
What do you mean by "nice try"?
Do you mean that as in "Nice try, I still support them although they steal the UN's food from their own people"?

[Easy Drifter]

I see the Finnish Hamas member is still flapping his gums and now supporting the Somali pirates as well.

[Daniel]

I see the Finnish Hamas member is still flapping his gums and now supporting the Somali pirates as well.
Easy Drifter..... you guys don't make yourself look better with stupid statements like that.....

[Easy Drifter]

Daniel: You I can argue and debate with sensibly and even with Steve.
I do not think Israel is blameless in this mess. I do not have a workable answer to peace unless Hamas decides they will accept Israel as a fact of life. Israel sort of gets along with the Arab nations and at the moment at least with Hezbolla. Do they treat the Palestinians in their borders as equals? No they don't, but they are in many cases freer than they are in some of the Arab countries.
Eki, no. He has openly admitted he does not think Israel has a right to exist.
He has also openly supported the Somali pirates previously.
To him Israel is always totally wrong and Hamas always justified and there are no grey areas.
He is so totally biased that my only response is to make fun of him.
There are a couple of posters on the 'Israel' side that are as bad and I will probably take a shot at them sooner or later, although in one case several of the poster's own countrymen already have.

[Roamy]

Easy Drifter..... you guys don't make yourself look better with stupid statements like that.....

I would say his statement is fair and balanced!!

[Roamy]

I hope they'll sail past Somalia. It's better that Somali pirates will get the cargo than Israel.

Oh this is a great statement for "Hamas with a Nokia"

[Eki]

I see the Finnish Hamas member is still flapping his gums and now supporting the Somali pirates as well.
I'm not supporting the Somali pirates. I'm saying they're the lesser evil from two evils. If I said it's better if a burgler gets a machine gun than a mass murderer gets one, it wouldn't mean I'm supporting the burgler, would it?

If you said it was better that Stalin won WW2 than Hitler did, would it mean that you support Stalin?

[Easy Drifter]

Talk about convoluted reasoning!

[Roamy]

Must have been a good growing season in Finland

[Mark in Oshawa]

All Fousto..you cant smoke anything that potent that you could come up with Eki's arguments. Those come from something ingested......I suspect there are some mushrooms with some real zip to them in Eki's back yard....

[Roamy]

yes Dances with Nokias is a one man band

[Eki]

yes Dances with Nokias is a one man band
Yes, but sometimes featuring Tomi.

[Mark in Oshawa]

When they reported that on Finnish TV news, they said Hamas wants the UN to deliver aid to all Palestinians, not just to those with an official refugee status, like they're doing now. So, maybe Hamas was acting as Robin Hood and spreading the aid to broader masses.

Hamas took the food for their own people and denied it from anyone who might have thought about either challenging them politically or with their own weapons. Hardly the stuff of Robin Hood. Of course...we know you would try to justify this, because I have pointed out more than once over the last two years, you will defend the worst scum of the earth if it can make either Israel or the USA look bad in your eyes.....

[donKey jote]

Panorama - Gaza Out of the Ruins (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_7874000/7874939.stm)

Just watched the torrent.
Sickening.

[Hondo]

Asking again, how do you identify a non-combatant?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article5724409.ece

I can probably think of 30 people that probably would've wished this non-combatant had been shot, run over by a tank, or air struck.

[Daniel]

Asking again, how do you identify a non-combatant?

You don't, you just shoot everyone till the killing stops or everyone is killed. Whichever comes first :rolleyes:

[Hondo]

You don't, you just shoot everyone till the killing stops or everyone is killed. Whichever comes first :rolleyes:

I understand the manner in which you mean your answer to be taken, but in reality, it may just eventually come down to that. Or, have everybody walk around naked with no wires or fuses protruding from any orifices.