Israel took a dump on Gaza again.... [Archive] - Page 4

Rani

15th January 2009, 16:05

Now Israel has shelled the head quarter of a UN relief agency:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm
We have a saying in Israel: "If you choose to sleep with dogs, don't be surprised if you wake up covered in fleas"
RPG's were fired on Givati troops from the building, so the IDF retaliated. The Gazans welcomed in this regime, let them store rockets and mortars in their kitchens and let them dig underground tunnels under their homes. They let the Hamas rise to power and hide behind their wives, their elderly and their children. The Hamas claims it is protecting Gaza but all of the civilians harmed were hit because the Hamas chose to use them as shelter, hiding behind them, counting on 'the jews' humanity'. It used to be like that but one can only be played like a fool so many times. You can't accuse a soldier firing back when attacked. At least when being objective you can't. Everyone in here had he/she been underfire would do whatever it takes to eliminate the threat. Yes, even if it means shooting at a UN building.
Of course this doesn't mean Israelis justify targetting any innocent civilian building.

It seems the day we set down are arms we will cease to exist, yet the day when our enemies set don their arms is the day we will have peace in the ME.

Hondo

15th January 2009, 16:11

to be honest mate im sure the US will be better off when Bush leaves office.

Oh, I'll agree with that also but I'm not convinced the Exalted Transparent One was the way to go either. Any way you slice it, there wasn't much to choose from from any direction except maybe Ron Paul.

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 16:17

Eki I would have thought that by now you would have realised that israel and the idf in particular are a law unto themselves and answerable to no-one.

i have to agree with you 100%

Here's how to end the crisis and make the world safer for capitalism:

Israel can defang Hamas by supporting the Fatah government in the West Bank. If Fatah made real improvements in the lives of the Palestinians, than the moderate Gazans would flock to them and throw Hamas out. This implies that Israel is willing to offer something to moderate Palestinians. But what transformational deal has Israel offered Fatah? Certainly, removing the settlers from the West Bank would be a major improvement, or a jobs program or infrastructure improvements and on and on. But none of this is happening and one has to ask why. Recall that former prime minister Sharon referred to Mahmud Abbas, the Fatah leader, as a “plucked chicken;” moreover, Israeli army chief Moshe Yaalon declared that "the Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people." It seems that Israel has no real solution to the plight of the Palestinians--other than they hope they go away and if they won’t go away there is their slow, creeping erasure. This is similar to America's policy toward its indigenous Indians. It worked in the USA (the Indians were all killed or corralled into reservations) but is not working in Gaza because Israel lives in a sea of Arabs. Short of killing all the Arabs, which im sure they know thats not a good idea to start messing with countries that can stand up to Israel a solution is needed. Some adult needs to tell the Israelis and Hamas to stop. A neutral military force needs to be placed between the fighting forces. No rockets, blockades or settlers allowed. Go back to the '67 armistice lines, and deliver the two state solution preached by many but practiced by few.

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 16:28

We have a saying in Israel: "If you choose to sleep with dogs, don't be surprised if you wake up covered in fleas"
RPG's were fired on Givati troops from the building, so the IDF retaliated. The Gazans welcomed in this regime, let them store rockets and mortars in their kitchens and let them dig underground tunnels under their homes. They let the Hamas rise to power and hide behind their wives, their elderly and their children. The Hamas claims it is protecting Gaza but all of the civilians harmed were hit because the Hamas chose to use them as shelter, hiding behind them, counting on 'the jews' humanity'. It used to be like that but one can only be played like a fool so many times. You can't accuse a soldier firing back when attacked. At least when being objective you can't. Everyone in here had he/she been underfire would do whatever it takes to eliminate the threat. Yes, even if it means shooting at a UN building.
Of course this doesn't mean Israelis justify targetting any innocent civilian building.

It seems the day we set down are arms we will cease to exist, yet the day when our enemies set don their arms is the day we will have peace in the ME.
Where is Palestine's "Right to Exist?" The glaring hypocrisy and double standards, not to mention war crimes and genocide never seem to be honestly reflected in the "perspective" pieces. "Why, then, did the Israeli leaders allow themselves to be provoked into such an overreaction?" Are you kidding me? Allow themselves to do what they intended to do all along? According to military plans? That removed the Jewish "settlers" from Gaza, years ago, just so this military campaign of atrocities could succeed? And what of the sixteen month SIEGE that deprives Gaza of food, medicine and needed goods? The SIEGE in and of itself is a war crime, an act of war, which murders children daily. Quite sick of the biased coverage, and the lack of honesty in assessing the situation. "Seeing Through the Lies The Facts About Hamas and the War on Gaza By NORMAN FINKELSTEIN The record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles...
The problem is democracy . If there was a true democracy in "Israel " , the problems would dissolve in the newly created society ( not unlike what existed before the European Jews arrived in Palestine .) In a true democracy the Muslims in Israel would outnumber the Jews and would enact more socialistic reforms for all of it's citizens . Such is the nature of the islamic beliefs . Let's have democracy in Israel and end this stalemate !

Hondo

15th January 2009, 16:34

If we were a smart world, we would all back off, aid neither side, and let them duke it out. As long as this has been going on with all the deals, truces, ceasefires, and treaties that haven't held ...let them go at it.

Roamy

15th January 2009, 16:40

I think 911 was a joke compaired to what happens in Palestina now, it's a government leading the Gaza massacre, 911 was just a few pissed off saudis, no government was behind that.

That is just because you are anti american. It is you and your kind that will ultimately allow the world to sink into major conflict.

All of you Euros come on here spout you crap which is clearly evident where it is heading. Then when you get a few rockets up the ass you come crying for help. Probably the best thing that will happen is when the Muslims take over all the EU which is coming. Then when we nuke this whole sh!tpile we won't need any bombs or missiles with guidance

BDunnell

15th January 2009, 16:45

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 16:48

That is just because you are anti american. It is you and your kind that will ultimately allow the world to sink into major conflict.

All of you Euros come on here spout you crap which is clearly evident where it is heading. Then when you get a few rockets up the ass you come crying for help. Probably the best thing that will happen is when the Muslims take over all the EU which is coming. Then when we nuke this whole sh!tpile we won't need any bombs or missiles with guidance

thats a bit extreme..

everyone who does not agree with the US has and always will be anti american..for saome reason i dont know.

The EU will not become a muslim state its just what you hear from you very un trustworthy news scorces.

Hondo

15th January 2009, 16:49

By God, get ol' fousto in there as president and there'll be jobs a-plenty in nuclear arms industry!

Tomi

15th January 2009, 16:51

All of you Euros come on here spout you crap which is clearly evident where it is heading. Then when you get a few rockets up the ass you come crying for help. Probably the best thing that will happen is when the Muslims take over all the EU which is coming. Then when we nuke this whole sh!tpile we won't need any bombs or missiles with guidance

I'm sorry to tell you, but the ones who lately has been crying for help is your government, every second month the send people to here asking to send people to Afganistan.

BDunnell

15th January 2009, 16:53

By God, get ol' fousto in there as president and there'll be jobs a-plenty in nuclear arms industry!

Not to mention coffin and bodybag manufacturing.

BDunnell

15th January 2009, 16:54

I'm sorry to tell you, but the ones who lately has been crying for help is your government, every second month the send people to here asking to send people to Afganistan.

A war which, let's not forget, countries are not obliged to participate in.

Roamy

15th January 2009, 16:54

Roamy

15th January 2009, 16:55

By God, get ol' fousto in there as president and there'll be jobs a-plenty in nuclear arms industry!

Nah - we already have enough :p
But there would be many jobs in the fence building industry

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 16:57

Ha !! Why do we have any military bases in the EU - Why because at the first sign of danger you guys fold like a lawn chair!! you need to go check up some immigration figures spacman - probably holland is a good place to start

couldnt be further from the truth..mate

you have bases in the EU as you are so paranoid about being attacked from a 'rogue state'. dont forget the EU has you there as guests and can tell you to leave at any time...

Camelopard

15th January 2009, 16:58

Probably the best thing that will happen is when the Muslims take over all the EU which is coming.

I think it's been pointed out before that you'll be speaking spanish long before muslims ever take over the eu.... :)

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 17:02

Ha !! Why do we have any military bases in the EU - Why because at the first sign of danger you guys fold like a lawn chair!! you need to go check up some immigration figures spacman - probably holland is a good place to start

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb1008.pdf

scroll down to the pie charts and graphs, and you will see a dramatic reduction in immigrants

Hondo

15th January 2009, 17:06

I think it's been pointed out before that you'll be speaking spanish long before muslims ever take over the eu.... :)

Not us. Americans are incapable of learning more than one language. Everybody knows that. If the Mexicans want to take us over, they're gonna have to learn English.

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 17:07

I think it's been pointed out before that you'll be speaking spanish long before muslims ever take over the eu.... :)

yes on my trips to the US i tend to see more and more mexicans everytime i go....

Even alot of signage is in both spanish and english...

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 17:08

Not us. Americans are incapable of learning more than one language. Everybody knows that. If the Mexicans want to take us over, they're gonna have to learn English.

US English ;)

Roamy

15th January 2009, 17:09

couldnt be further from the truth..mate

you have bases in the EU as you are so paranoid about being attacked from a 'rogue state'. dont forget the EU has you there as guests and can tell you to leave at any time...

God is there anyway to trigger this request?

Roamy

15th January 2009, 17:12

US English ;)

si senor

but I would rather get taken over by Colombia - The women are beautiful!!

Camelopard

15th January 2009, 17:27

. If the Mexicans want to take us over, they're gonna have to learn English.

But the Mexicans ARE taking you over..... :)

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 17:37

si senor

but I would rather get taken over by Colombia - The women are beautiful!!

for once we agree on something...

Daniel

15th January 2009, 18:33

That is just because you are anti american. It is you and your kind that will ultimately allow the world to sink into major conflict.

All of you Euros come on here spout you crap which is clearly evident where it is heading. Then when you get a few rockets up the ass you come crying for help. Probably the best thing that will happen is when the Muslims take over all the EU which is coming. Then when we nuke this whole sh!tpile we won't need any bombs or missiles with guidance

Yeah Tomi, it's your type who goes to rallies and goes diving which will be the death of us! The death of us I tell you!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

Noooooo it's not those who support needless wars and who spew intolerance who will cause war, it's a guy in Finland who likes rallying and diving that's going to cause WW3 :rotflmao: I bet Tomi picking me up at the airport in Helsinki and taking me to Jyvaskyla was yet another step on the road to war as well.....

Bwaahahhahahahaahahaha I've never read such crap in my life.

Daniel

15th January 2009, 18:35

Not to mention coffin and bodybag manufacturing.

No need for bodybags or coffins with President Fousto! Hé'll blow all their asses to hell :laugh:

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 18:41

Yeah Tomi, it's your type who goes to rallies and goes diving which will be the death of us! The death of us I tell you!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

Noooooo it's not those who support needless wars and who spew intolerance who will cause war, it's a guy in Finland who likes rallying and diving that's going to cause WW3 :rotflmao: I bet Tomi picking me up at the airport in Helsinki and taking me to Jyvaskyla was yet another step on the road to war as well.....

Bwaahahhahahahaahahaha I've never read such crap in my life.

LOL

Daniel

15th January 2009, 18:42

You must have edited this and added the last line after I quoted you.

For some Americans, 911 will remain relevant until the day they take their last breath, just like Pearl Harbor. It will remain relevant to the government as long as they can continue to reap approval for themselves and their actions, through it's memory.

There are people on here and in the world that are fond of proclaiming that everytime the US does this and Israel does that, all we are doing is creating new enemies. Well, they need to be reminded that this is also a 2 way street and every silly-a$$ed little stunt that those operating under the pretense of Jihad pull off, creates more people willing to hunt them to ground.

I don't mean to sound crass or insensitive but if that be the case then you need to build a bridge and get over it collectively as a country.

Nothing good comes of letting this sort of thing fester and stew. The people who did this are terrible, there's no doubt about this. But making this some sort of witch hunt based on religion or race just radicalises people and makes it more likely to happen again.

Tomi

15th January 2009, 18:54

chuck34

15th January 2009, 18:56

Daniel

15th January 2009, 18:57

Oh sorry I forgot to write "Tomi" in the first sentence in my post. Oh wait.... no I didn't.... I actually wrote a perfectly fine post which was clearly directed at Tomi, try again.

chuck34

15th January 2009, 18:58

That is just because you are anti american. It is you and your kind that will ultimately allow the world to sink into major conflict.

All of you Euros come on here spout you crap which is clearly evident where it is heading. Then when you get a few rockets up the ass you come crying for help. Probably the best thing that will happen is when the Muslims take over all the EU which is coming. Then when we nuke this whole sh!tpile we won't need any bombs or missiles with guidance

Fousto, I agree with you on a lot of stuff, but this is a bit over the top.

Sure alot of the EU countries aren't exactly "appreciative" of what the US has/is done/doing for them. But then again, all they get in their media is how evil Bush is, and therefore all Americans must be just as stupid and evil as he is. And by the way, those Israelis are really just Americans too, so f' em.

chuck34

15th January 2009, 19:00

Oh sorry I forgot to write "Tomi" in the first sentence in my post. Oh wait.... no I didn't.... I actually wrote a perfectly fine post which was clearly directed at Tomi, try again.

I don't want to get into a whole big thing over this again. But you did exactly what I did when you yelled at me earlier.

I quoted one person, responded to that, then directed my next sentence at someone clearly called out. Just trying to make sure you stick to your own rules. ;-)

Roamy

15th January 2009, 19:12

No need for bodybags or coffins with President Fousto! Hé'll blow all their asses to hell :laugh:

saving money for the bailout :p and anyway the islams want your ass for a bike rack

steve_spackman

15th January 2009, 19:23

Fousto, I agree with you on a lot of stuff, but this is a bit over the top.

Sure alot of the EU countries aren't exactly "appreciative" of what the US has/is done/doing for them. But then again, all they get in their media is how evil Bush is, and therefore all Americans must be just as stupid and evil as he is. And by the way, those Israelis are really just Americans too, so f' em.

please explain what the US has done and is doing for the EU??

Eki

15th January 2009, 19:52

You gonna stop whupping on the US when Bush goes and give the Exalted Transparent One some breathing room?
It remains to be seen.

Eki

15th January 2009, 19:55

You can't accuse a soldier firing back when attacked.

I can, if the soldier is an invader. Can you accuse a German soldier who fired back at the uprise of the Warzaw ghetto?

Hondo

15th January 2009, 21:13

I can, if the soldier is an invader. Can you accuse a German soldier who fired back at the uprise of the Warzaw ghetto?

I can answer that. At the time of the Warsaw uprising, it was German territory. In addition, at that time and probably now too, it was illegal to shoot at German soldiers on German Territory. Therefore, the soldier was justified in firing back.

Do I win anything?

gadjo_dilo

16th January 2009, 07:22

Sure alot of the EU countries aren't exactly "appreciative" of what the US has/is done/doing for them.
Must be because they know that US never do anything without thinking they'll get a strategic advantage. They dislike that these days they have to be under US's thumb.
Appreciations may come when the help comes from friendly, human and disinterested reasons. Ooops! Just forget that morals have nothing to do with this topic.

Ha !! Why do we have any military bases in the EU - Why because at the first sign of danger you guys fold like a lawn chair!! you need to go check up some immigration figures spacman - probably holland is a good place to start
Not because EU's sake but because after WW II you were prudent with your ex-ally from the east. :laugh:

Rani

16th January 2009, 11:36

I can, if the soldier is an invader. Can you accuse a German soldier who fired back at the uprise of the Warzaw ghetto?
No.
As a soldier and a human you have to defend yourself.
For example, if you were trying to harm me I wouldn't think twice.

chuck34

16th January 2009, 13:33

[quote="gadjo_dilo"]Must be because they know that US never do anything without thinking they'll get a strategic advantage. They dislike that these days they have to be under US's thumb.
Appreciations may come when the help comes from friendly, human and disinterested reasons. Ooops! Just forget that morals have nothing to do with this topic.QUOTE]

Name one country that does anything without thinking they'll get a strategic advantage?

Oh wait, how about the tonnes of money that the US has given to Africa for AIDS research/prevention. Just to name one off the top of my head.

Eki

16th January 2009, 14:28

Then when you get a few rockets up the ass you come crying for help.

What help? Butt plugs? Can they stop a rocket going up the ass?

Roamy

16th January 2009, 16:17

in your case EKI - probably not :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

steve_spackman

16th January 2009, 17:15

In Gaza we are witnessing re-enactments of Guernica and the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, but irony is lost on those Israelis who, in their pursuit Zionist dreams, visit the same harms on Palestinians as historically befell their own people. Perhaps the most naked irony is that because Hamas has thus far refused to accept Israel's right to exist, the Israeli government has set out to make Hamas cease to exist.

Daniel

16th January 2009, 17:17

steve_spackman

16th January 2009, 17:22

How can you say that? You know the Jews went through the Holocaust. Lay off them!

:rolleyes:

i think what i said is a just and fair statement..Hamas dont think that Israel should exist and vice versa..thats what this war is really about!!

Daniel

16th January 2009, 17:25

i think what i said is a just and fair statement..Hamas dont think that Israel should exist and vice versa..thats what this war is really about!!

I agree. Was just being sarcastic :p

steve_spackman

16th January 2009, 17:28

I agree. Was just being sarcastic :p

oh my i would not of guessed there daniel.... ;)

im sure Israel could stop the mass slaughter they are doing.....ethnic cleansing comes to mind

Daniel

16th January 2009, 17:29

oh my i would not of guessed there daniel.... ;)

im sure Israel could stop the mass slaughter they are doing.....ethnic cleansing comes to mind

Hey! Have a bit of sympathy! Do you not remember what they went through in WW2? :(

Rani

16th January 2009, 18:10

i think what i said is a just and fair statement..Hamas dont think that Israel should exist and vice versa..thats what this war is really about!!

I understand you'd have no problem with someone wishing to exterminate you. Hell you're so nice you'd probably just bend over and satisfy their wishes.

Your government sent soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq. These soldiers have killed a lot more innocent people in these two countries which have never really threatened your home (at least not in your view). Those soldiers killed those people out of self defence or by mistake when trying to go for an enemy target.

May I ask where were and are your protests against them?

Were those soldiers in the right killing all those innocent afghan and iraqi children?
Your government is creating a holocaust in far away countries in your view, is it not?

Maybe its ok to commit such deeds when your country isn't based on 'a bizzarre cult'...

Give me a break from all this BS, All this hypocricy makes me sick.

Daniel, Where was your bleeding heart for the last 8 years Hamas has been TARGETTING schools in Sderot?

Were you spewing rage when Hamas suicide bombers killed hundreds of innocent people in Tel Aviv the last few years?

Daniel

16th January 2009, 18:15

I understand you'd have no problem with someone wishing to exterminate you. Hell you're so nice you'd probably just bend over and satisfy their wishes.

Your government sent soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq. These soldiers have killed a lot more innocent people in these two countries which have never really threatened your home (at least not in your view). Those soldiers killed those people out of self defence or by mistake when trying to go for an enemy target.

May I ask where were and are your protests against them?

Were those soldiers in the right killing all those innocent afghan and iraqi children?
Your government is creating a holocaust in far away countries in your view, is it not?

Maybe its ok to commit such deeds when your country isn't based on 'a bizzarre cult'...

Give me a break from all this BS, All this hypocricy makes me sick.

Daniel, Where was your bleeding heart for the last 8 years Hamas has been TARGETTING schools in Sderot?

Were you spewing rage when Hamas suicide bombers killed hundreds of innocent people in Tel Aviv the last few years?

Don't you get it? They're killing you because you kill them and you are an opressive force in the region. Come back and reply to me when you understand this basic fact.

You talk about hypocrisy but Israel is the ultimate hypocrite in all of this.....

Roamy

16th January 2009, 18:50

Rani,

These people aren't go to get it - no matter how many Hamas rockets fly into Israel. They are all anti american and anti isreal. You can't save the world on this site but you can understand the necessity to blow the living sh!t out of your enemy. These are the same people that make up the majority of the UN.
Clear and simple - we need out of the UN and form a new club. In a few short years the Islamic Nation of Holland will be trying to influence decisions about you country. Christ maybe they will melt cheese on you and let the rats eat you.

Daniel

16th January 2009, 18:53

schmenke

16th January 2009, 19:03

In Gaza we are witnessing re-enactments of Guernica and the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, ...

Wow, that is a stretch... :s

Roamy

16th January 2009, 19:05

i had better come over there and start "reality" tv

TOgoFASTER

17th January 2009, 02:59

Your sort of humour would be welcome on TV here. What's that you say? You're serious? Well come along anyway :)

It's just that Christians value life thing. Plus a serious case of way too many Tom Clancy video games.

Mark in Oshawa

17th January 2009, 03:25

I go away 3 days and nothing much has changed.

Provide actual proof of a really meaningful Genocide and Holocaust. Show me where the oppression is. Just don't say it...PROVE it. You CANT.

Here is why. If the Israeli's wanted to wipe the Palestinians out, they would have done so a long time ago ( I repeat myself and no one seems to want to refute this with facts...they just keep bleating like sheep ). If Israel was bent on conquest, they wouldn't have pulled out of Gaza, they would have instead EVICTED the Palestinians to whatever Arab country they felt like pushing them INTO.

The Palestinians complain about having no food or medicine but can always find ways to smuggle in rockets. Funny how that works eh?

To paraphrase an Israeli reservist called up yet again: "if they worked as hard building up their country as they do trying to destroy mine, they might have something worth having".

Camelopard

17th January 2009, 04:52

I go away 3 days and nothing much has changed.

geez, you really are so full of your own self importance, aren't you?

Easy Drifter

17th January 2009, 06:13

Methinks Mark was being sarcastic.
But he is right. This tread is going in circles and nobody is adding anything (including me) that hasn't been said over and over.
Basically we are agreeing to disagree.

harsha

17th January 2009, 06:47

Eki

17th January 2009, 08:29

i had better come over there and start "reality" tv
What would you call it? "Big Daddy"?

The US is actually like a "big brother". It's spying, bullying and bossing other countries in the world.

steve_spackman

17th January 2009, 23:07

What would you call it? "Big Daddy"?

The US is actually like a "big brother". It's spying, bullying and bossing other countries in the world.

it can only do that to countries whom are unable to stand up to them

Hondo

17th January 2009, 23:37

Ah, the righteous rage of impotency.

Mark in Oshawa

17th January 2009, 23:48

The USA isn't always right...but it is right a lot more often than some would like them to be....

donKey jote

18th January 2009, 11:44

What's this, a balanced view from one of the parties ? :eek:
http://www.acri.org.il/eng/story.aspx?id=599

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20090116elpepuint_16/LCO340/Ies/ONG_israeli_publica_Haaretz_obituario_ninos_muerto s_Gaza.jpg
spanish elpais link (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/ONG/israeli/publica/Haaretz/obituario/ninos/muertos/Gaza/elpepuint/20090116elpepuint_11/Tes)

Hondo

18th January 2009, 13:12

Ok.

Mark in Oshawa

18th January 2009, 19:00

Donkey..interesting link. Interesting too in how it comes from Israeli's and their civil rights group. You think a group in the Arab world would publish something like this to stop Hezbollah and Hamas from attacking Israel? I think there is where you have to pick out your villians. The Arab world for the most part has no problem with Jew's dying. At least people in Israel are deploring the violence have have an sensible argument in their favour.

This all presupposes of course that the there is someone left in Gaza in authority who has a sense of fairness tho. The reason Gaza is being attacked is that the authority there has decided to start a war they cant win to try to get ...what? There is no purpose other than courting a heavy response.....

chuck34

18th January 2009, 19:13

Hondo

18th January 2009, 19:48

I'm waiting for the "Bush-Cheney forced Israel to attack Gaza so Cheney could secure construction and rebuilding contracts for KBR" post.

Eki

18th January 2009, 19:58

The Arab world for the most part has no problem with Jew's dying.
The only Jews dying are their invading soldiers. It's like Americans seem only to be concerned of their own soldiers dying but don't give a sh!t about Iraqi or Afghan civilians dying.

Daniel

18th January 2009, 20:01

The only Jews dying are their invading soldiers. It's like Americans seem only to be concerned of their own soldiers dying but don't give a sh!t about Iraqi or Afghan civilians dying.

He's got a point Mark, I'm all for tit for tat. But when tit is a few of your civilians dying and tat is over a thousand of their civilians dying then you have to start wondering whether this response by Israel was appropriate and proportionate.

donKey jote

18th January 2009, 20:07

from the ACRI link (http://www.acri.org.il/eng/story.aspx?id=599) I posted earlier:

It must be emphasized that violation of the laws of war by one side does not justify or legitimize such violations by the other. Israel’s ongoing violations of the rights of Palestinian civilians in Gaza do not justify the firing of rockets at civilian populations by Hamas. Such shooting is strictly prohibited, marked by a black flag of immorality, and a flagrant violation of the laws of war. This is also true for the rockets fired at Israeli civilians, which do not give Israel the right to wreak massive destruction on the civilians in Gaza, and a black flag flies over this as well. There is no justification for attacking civilians - not in Israel, Gaza, or anywhere.

donKey jote

18th January 2009, 20:09

We haven't heard much out of the West Bank lately. I guess that must mean that the Israeli policy of genocide is working, right?

who's "we", we in the kingdom of the deaf, dumb & blind ? :dozey:

chuck34

18th January 2009, 20:22

who's "we", we in the kingdom of the deaf, dumb & blind ? :dozey:

Ok fine I haven't heard too much fighting in the West Bank lately. Maybe you could provide some links to enlighten me.

Mark in Oshawa

18th January 2009, 20:33

He's got a point Mark, I'm all for tit for tat. But when tit is a few of your civilians dying and tat is over a thousand of their civilians dying then you have to start wondering whether this response by Israel was appropriate and proportionate.

Are they supposed to wait until some civilians are killed in a rocket attack? What about property damage?

I don't like agreeing with Eki at the best of times but you and he aren't all wrong on this one. Again though...Who started this latest disagreement? I believe Hamas was sending rockets over the border for the better part of a month before Israel started shooting back. THAT is when it hit the news. Israel didn't decide to level Gaza because it would give them something to do.

Israel has been pretty heavy handed this time, but you dont' win wars by fighting with an arm behind your back. They want this to stop and they are going to use that force they can use. It sucks, I don't like it but I look at who started it and their "Reasons" and I don't have sympathy for Hamas. I do for the civilians caught in the crossfire, but I don't feel any less sympathy for those in Israel who were caught in rocket attacks, those in Georgia in front of the Russian tanks, those caught in the crossfire in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere else. The problem will always lie with governments or movements that put those lives they are supposed to protect in jeopardy. In this case, Hamas could have made sure everyone had food, water, gas and the neccessitites of life. Israel may have been playing tough guy but you don't get my sympathy by going to war with them when you know you cannot win. Hamas never tried to do anything but provoke this latest uprising....

Eki

18th January 2009, 20:41

Israel has been pretty heavy handed this time, but you dont' win wars by fighting with an arm behind your back. .
Hamas is fighting with both their arms behind their back. They don't get any military support from the US like Israel does and they are being economically strangeled by sanctions, so they have to fight with improvised home made weaponry.

Mark in Oshawa

18th January 2009, 20:47

Hamas is fighting with both their arms behind their back. They don't get any military support from the US like Israel does and they are being economically strangeled by sanctions, so they have to fight with improvised home made weaponry.

They could do something else and appeal to the world through a policy of peace. Gandhi is one of my heroes because he used his force of argument to get what he wanted without firing a shot. Of course...he knew his enemy would be vulnerable to this and I think Israel would be on the wrong side of any argument if the Palestinians waged a PR campaign and didn't spend most of their spare time figuring out new ways to kill Jew's.

Hamas is getting help from Iran Eki. The Iranians always have money and arms to send to Hezbollah and Hamas and while they may not be buddy buddy with Hamas, they aren't hiding this relationship. They of course are not given any real serious arms...just enough to keep Isreal annoyed.

If Hamas doesn't have the arms to win, then choose another tactic. As long as you see nothing wrong with launching hundreds of rockets at civilians and then wondering why the other side hits back, you obviously need to change tactics.

steve_spackman

18th January 2009, 21:14

They could do something else and appeal to the world through a policy of peace. Gandhi is one of my heroes because he used his force of argument to get what he wanted without firing a shot. Of course...he knew his enemy would be vulnerable to this and I think Israel would be on the wrong side of any argument if the Palestinians waged a PR campaign and didn't spend most of their spare time figuring out new ways to kill Jew's.

Hamas is getting help from Iran Eki. The Iranians always have money and arms to send to Hezbollah and Hamas and while they may not be buddy buddy with Hamas, they aren't hiding this relationship. They of course are not given any real serious arms...just enough to keep Isreal annoyed.

If Hamas doesn't have the arms to win, then choose another tactic. As long as you see nothing wrong with launching hundreds of rockets at civilians and then wondering why the other side hits back, you obviously need to change tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpvrOJQ0J0&feature=related

donKey jote

18th January 2009, 21:18

Ok fine I haven't heard too much fighting in the West Bank lately. Maybe you could provide some links to enlighten me.
Fighting in the West Bank lately? No, I haven't heard any lately either.
Not before Cast Lead, not after Cast Lead. So how is "your" [Israeli policy of] genocide working ? :s
How about another operation "King Herod", wouldn't that work better? :dozey:

Garry Walker

18th January 2009, 21:51

http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Your point being?

thats a bit extreme..

everyone who does not agree with the US has and always will be anti american..for saome reason i dont know.

The EU will not become a muslim state its just what you hear from you very un trustworthy news scorces.
If the birthrates of white europeans remain as low as they are and the crazy immigration continues at the current pace, muslims will soon be a majority in many european countries.
Ahh how liberal idiots will enjoy that.

What would you call it? "Big Daddy"?

The US is actually like a "big brother". It's spying, bullying and bossing other countries in the world.Yeah, sure. US is the worst country ever.

Eki

18th January 2009, 22:16

Yeah, sure. US is the worst country ever.
It's not about being the worst country. If you want to lead, you should be the best country ever and a role model for other countries. Right now the US comes out as a huge hypocryte.

Easy Drifter

18th January 2009, 22:26

Garry Walker

18th January 2009, 22:29

It's not about being the worst country. If you want to lead, you should be the best country ever and a role model for other countries. Right now the US comes out as a huge hypocryte.

I am not sure if you are trolling or you actually believe in what you just wrote.

Eki

18th January 2009, 22:30

Eki that is just about the most idealistic and unrealistic statement I have seen you make.
Name one leading country in the history of mankind that has ever followed those principles.
I am not saying it isn't right in a perfect world but this is no perfect world!

Then you shouldn't try to lead at all if you're not up to it. And that's why we should have an institution that leads and doesn't let one single country to lead. The UN pretends to be like that, but still it's largely a tool of big and powerful countries, especially the US.

Mark in Oshawa

18th January 2009, 22:33

EKi...we could have a world of mediocrity...you would fit right in with that?

steve_spackman

18th January 2009, 22:34

It's not about being the worst country. If you want to lead, you should be the best country ever and a role model for other countries. Right now the US comes out as a huge hypocryte.

No country will ever be a role model for others to follow..this includes the US.

For the US to lay claim that they are the leaders of the free world is a huge mistake

TOgoFASTER

18th January 2009, 22:36

Eki

19th January 2009, 05:22

EKi...we could have a world of mediocrity...you would fit right in with that?
Democracy is the world of mediocrity. Right now mediocrity would probably be better than the current situation.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2009, 05:25

Democracy is the world of mediocrity. Right now mediocrity would probably be better than the current situation.

I was going to say something...and I realize I do agree with the first part of your statement. Democracy is an awful way to run a country...but it is the best option when you look at the alternatives.

That said...The US is on the sidelines I think on this one. Bush is leaving, Obama is coming in....lets wait for the Exalted one's feelings on the subject.

Roamy

19th January 2009, 07:05

He's got a point Mark, I'm all for tit for tat. But when tit is a few of your civilians dying and tat is over a thousand of their civilians dying then you have to start wondering whether this response by Israel was appropriate and proportionate.

I would suspect if the Pales didn't fire rockets into Israel we wouldn't have to try and figure out what is appropriate and proportionate.

Roamy

19th January 2009, 07:11

Hamas is fighting with both their arms behind their back. They don't get any military support from the US like Israel does and they are being economically strangeled by sanctions, so they have to fight with improvised home made weaponry.

well so what EKI do you want your enemy with some kind of advantage. We make rifles so we don't have to go to a grizzly bear fight with a knife.

Roamy

19th January 2009, 07:17

No country will ever be a role model for others to follow..this includes the US.

For the US to lay claim that they are the leaders of the free world is a huge mistake

Ok lets have Italy lead for a while - maybe we could all learn to manufacture something that someone wants

TOgoFASTER

19th January 2009, 07:40

Hamas is fighting with both their arms behind their back. They don't get any military support from the US like Israel does and they are being economically strangeled by sanctions, so they have to fight with improvised home made weaponry.

Hey we all can't be handicapped like the Israelis. 75% of their military aid from the US has to be spent on US made arms. That is at least true with the still in effect yearly military aid deal made right after the last Lebanon excursion.

Of course countries like Eqypt and the Saudis got new deals that allowed them to buy more from US arms manufactures in their aid packages to keep the balance of power in the region. ;)

Camelopard

23rd January 2009, 14:15

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7843307.stm

I realise that a lot of you will say that this is from the obviously biased BBC but it makes for interesting reading, in particular this:

The women and children - mother, grandmother and three little girls - came out waving a white flag and then, he said, an Israeli soldier came out of the tank and opened fire on the terrified procession. Samar's two sisters, aged seven and two, were shot dead. The grandmother was hit in the arm and in the side, but has survived.

One of the most alarming features of the conflict in Gaza is the number of child casualties. More than 400 were killed. Many had shrapnel or blast injuries sustained as the Israeli army battled Hamas militants in Gaza's densely populated civilian areas.
But the head of neurosurgery at the El-Arish hospital, Dr Ahmed Yahia, told me that brain scans made it clear that a number of the child victims had been shot at close range.
Samar's uncle said the soldier who had shot his niece was just 15m (49ft) away. ''How could they not see they were shooting at children?'' he asked.

"There were soldiers leaning against the tank eating crisps," he said. "But then one of them jumped down and walked towards the house with an M16 automatic rifle." He showed me a photo of his eldest daughter under shrouds in the mortuary.

The Israelis say is evidence that on many occasions when civilians were killed their troops had been responding to incoming fire.

"There were no fighters here," he added, picking up crisp bags printed with Hebrew lettering that the soldiers seemed to have left behind. "Do you think soldiers eat crisps sitting on their tanks when there is incoming fire?"

Daniel

23rd January 2009, 14:18

Robinho

23rd January 2009, 14:25

i've not seen it yet, but i plan to watch Channel 4's Dispatches "Unseen Gaza" series, which i think will give an uncomfortable view of whats really gone on in there beyond most of the eyes of the media and the world

Channel 4, Monday 2nd Feb, 8.00pm - fronted by Jon Snow

Camelopard

23rd January 2009, 14:27

Don't you know what the Jews went through in WW2? :(

Here is another one for you Daniel: Israeli shell kills the daughters of Palestinian Doctor that helps Jewish women to have babies through IVF.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7838465.stm

I know a lot of people won't bother eading the whole article so I'll repeat a few bits. Perhaps his house was targeted as he was giving daily telephone briefings to a Tel Aviv TV station?

By Lucy Ash
BBC World Service
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

I first met Dr Izeldeen Abuelaish eight years ago when I made a radio documentary about his extraordinary life and work.

A Palestinian obstetrician who specialises in treating infertility, he lives in Jabaliya in the Gaza Strip, but used to work part-time in Israel helping Jewish women to have babies.
He also had a clinic in Gaza, taught medical school students there and arranged for seriously ill Palestinian patients to be treated in Israel.
He put up with the tedious and sometimes humiliating border checks with dignity and patience.
He stayed calm when one of his own Palestinian medical students told him she was "very, very angry" that he was helping Israelis to have children. "What if these babies grow up to become soldiers who kill our people?" asked the young woman.

"My daughters were just sitting quietly talking in their bedroom at home," Dr Izeldeen Abuelaish told me on the phone between sobs.
"I had just left the room, carrying my youngest son on my shoulders. Then a shell came through the wall.
"I rushed back to find their dead bodies - or rather parts of their bodies - strewn all over the room. One was still sitting in a chair but she had no legs.
"Tell me why did they have to die? Who gave the order to fire on my house?"
In a voice cracked with emotion, he added: "You know me, Lucy. You have been to my house, my hospital; you have seen my Israeli patients. "I have tried so hard to bring people on both sides together and just look what I get in return."

During the recent military campaign, Dr Abuelaish, who speaks fluent Hebrew, had been acting as an unofficial correspondent for a Tel Aviv-based TV station, giving daily updates by phone.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif
He was determined to let Israelis know as much as possible about the suffering of Palestinian civilians under Israel's bombardment.
Minutes after the shell hit his house, Dr Abuelaish phoned the station's presenter, Shlomi Eldar, to describe what had happened. The Israeli journalist looked awkward and visibly distressed as the doctor's disembodied voice is broadcast crying: "My daughters, they killed them, Oh Lord. God, God, God."

Camelopard

23rd January 2009, 14:42

It seems that the Israelis have learnt from the mistake of allowing journalists to get to close to the action, this piece from PATRICK COCKBURN.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/introverted-israelis-always-see-themselves-as-victims/1414655.aspx

I was watching the superb animated documentary Waltz with Bashir about the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It culminates in the massacre of some 1700 Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in south Beirut by Christian militiamen introduced there by the Israeli army, which observed the butchery from close range.

In the last few minutes, the film switches from animation to graphic news footage showing Palestinian women screaming with grief and horror as they discover the bullet-riddled bodies of their families. Then, just behind the women, I saw myself walking with a small group of journalists who had arrived in the camp soon after the killings had stopped.

The film is about how the director, Ari Folman, who knew he was at Sabra and Chatila as an Israeli soldier, tried to discover both why he had repressed all memory of what happened to him and the degree of Israeli complicity in the massacre.

At first I thought that little had changed since Sabra and Chatila.
Once again there were the same tired and offensive excuses that Israel was somehow not to blame. Hamas was using civilians as human shields, and in any case this argument produced more furtively two-thirds of people in Gaza had voted for Hamas so they deserved whatever happened to them.

At Sabra and Chatila the first journalist to find out about the massacre was an Israeli and he desperately tried to get it stopped. This would not happen today because Israeli journalists, along with all foreign journalists, were banned from entering Gaza before the Israeli bombardment started. This has made it far easier for the Government to sell the official line about what a great success the operation has been.

No one believes propaganda so much as the propagandist, so Israel's view of the outside world is increasingly detached from reality.

Hondo

23rd January 2009, 15:01

Britain created them.

The USA provided the majority, but not all their support.

The Soviets provided the Arabs support.

The IDF has prevailed in every conflict.

Hamas wants Israel eliminated,

Iran wants Israel eliminated.

There will be no peace as long as total elimination remains the only solution.

If the USA withdrew all support from Israel, the Arab armies still couldn't take them down. The Arabs know this and won't try again. They've seen their own armies fight.

Until attitudes change or one side or another gets wiped out, this will continue.

Daniel

23rd January 2009, 15:01

Yep. Couldn't agree more. But Israel is so detached from reality....

Daniel

23rd January 2009, 15:02

Until attitudes change or one side or another gets wiped out, this will continue.

Yep, but as soon as you suggest that both sides are wrong you are branded anti-Israeli :mark:

steve_spackman

23rd January 2009, 15:15

Yep, but as soon as you suggest that both sides are wrong you are branded anti-Israeli :mark:

this is a lost cause mate..

you me and everyone else who does not support the US or israel are not worthy..

how pathetic.

schmenke

23rd January 2009, 15:21

Yep, but as soon as you suggest that both sides are wrong you are branded anti-Israeli :mark:

:confused:

Ultimately, both sides are to blame for the continued conflict.
For there to be lasting peace, two conditions must exist:
1. Hamas, Iran, and all other Islamic fanatics must recognise the Jews' right to exist, and;
2. The zionists must cease their quest for ultimately populating all of Palestine as their own.

steve_spackman

23rd January 2009, 15:25

:confused:

Ultimately, both sides are to blame for the continued conflict.
For there to be lasting peace, two conditions must exist:
1. Hamas, Iran, and all other Islamic fanatics must recognise the Jews' right to exist, and;
2. The zionists must cease their quest for ultimately populating all of Palestine as their own.

agree with you but....

praps hamas, iran and co would feel better if the 'jews' moved elsewhere?

its like this

say i move to a area where the entire population is say...black. i would be the odd one out and vice versa...

thats kinda what its like in that part of the world

Hondo

23rd January 2009, 15:27

I could care less about either side. The lesson that should be learned from this is if you zip a bunch of rockets in on another country, sooner or later they are going to do something you may not enjoy, if they can and are willing. Israel can and is willing.

steve_spackman

23rd January 2009, 15:34

schmenke

23rd January 2009, 15:36

agree with you but....

praps hamas, iran and co would feel better if the 'jews' moved elsewhere?

its like this

say i move to a area where the entire population is say...black. i would be the odd one out and vice versa...

thats kinda what its like in that part of the world

Jews and Arabs have lived together in Palestine for thousands of years. Fact is that neither are going to "move" elsewhere any time soon. The only solution is tolerance.

Daniel

23rd January 2009, 15:40

:confused:

Ultimately, both sides are to blame for the continued conflict.
For there to be lasting peace, two conditions must exist:
1. Hamas, Iran, and all other Islamic fanatics must recognise the Jews' right to exist, and;
2. The zionists must cease their quest for ultimately populating all of Palestine as their own.

I didn't say you brand people as being anti-semitic but some other people seem to think it's purely the fault of Hamas and anything other than that is anti-semitism.

schmenke

23rd January 2009, 15:44

Hamas is merely the pointy end of a long stick that is poked into the hornets' nest.

Hondo

23rd January 2009, 15:46

Hamas is merely the pointy end of a long stick that is poked into the hornets' nest.

Nicely and accurately put. Well done!

Daniel

23rd January 2009, 15:49

Hamas is merely the pointy end of a long stick that is poked into the hornets' nest.

Yeah but this hornets nest pokes the stick back sometimes as well :)

Eki

23rd January 2009, 18:10

Hamas is merely the pointy end of a long stick that is poked into the hornets' nest.
I'd say it's more like the blunt end. It may shake the nest but doesn't do much real damage.

leopard

23rd January 2009, 18:42

Rani

23rd January 2009, 19:47

I'd say it's more like the blunt end. It may shake the nest but doesn't do much real damage.
Why don't you come live in Sderot to see how well that statement holds up...
Better yet why don't you ask the families of those killed by Hamas' numerous terrorist attacks how real the damage is.

Rani

23rd January 2009, 20:11

Here is another one for you Daniel: Israeli shell kills the daughters of Palestinian Doctor that helps Jewish women to have babies through IVF.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7838465.stm

I know a lot of people won't bother eading the whole article so I'll repeat a few bits. Perhaps his house was targeted as he was giving daily telephone briefings to a Tel Aviv TV station?

By Lucy Ash
BBC World Service
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

I first met Dr Izeldeen Abuelaish eight years ago when I made a radio documentary about his extraordinary life and work.

A Palestinian obstetrician who specialises in treating infertility, he lives in Jabaliya in the Gaza Strip, but used to work part-time in Israel helping Jewish women to have babies.
He also had a clinic in Gaza, taught medical school students there and arranged for seriously ill Palestinian patients to be treated in Israel.
He put up with the tedious and sometimes humiliating border checks with dignity and patience.
He stayed calm when one of his own Palestinian medical students told him she was "very, very angry" that he was helping Israelis to have children. "What if these babies grow up to become soldiers who kill our people?" asked the young woman.

"My daughters were just sitting quietly talking in their bedroom at home," Dr Izeldeen Abuelaish told me on the phone between sobs.
"I had just left the room, carrying my youngest son on my shoulders. Then a shell came through the wall.
"I rushed back to find their dead bodies - or rather parts of their bodies - strewn all over the room. One was still sitting in a chair but she had no legs.
"Tell me why did they have to die? Who gave the order to fire on my house?"
In a voice cracked with emotion, he added: "You know me, Lucy. You have been to my house, my hospital; you have seen my Israeli patients. "I have tried so hard to bring people on both sides together and just look what I get in return."

During the recent military campaign, Dr Abuelaish, who speaks fluent Hebrew, had been acting as an unofficial correspondent for a Tel Aviv-based TV station, giving daily updates by phone.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif
He was determined to let Israelis know as much as possible about the suffering of Palestinian civilians under Israel's bombardment.
Minutes after the shell hit his house, Dr Abuelaish phoned the station's presenter, Shlomi Eldar, to describe what had happened. The Israeli journalist looked awkward and visibly distressed as the doctor's disembodied voice is broadcast crying: "My daughters, they killed them, Oh Lord. God, God, God."
Dr. Abulaish was a guest in the studio of channel 2 news today, and some interesting things were told. While this man lost his daughters, he still agreed decisively when the interviewer told him israeli soldiers are not murderers. His words were ''I know thwy're not murderers but why don't they admit it was a mistake?''

The army says a sniper was firing from the same building, and I tend to believe it. Even if it's not true, it clearly was a mistake. Trying to make the israeli ground troops as murderers is preposterous, ask the doctor.

Hamas had this attack coming to them, and chose to rig entire neighbourhoods like open warzones filled with mines and IED's. THEY chose to strip of their Hamas uniform and put on civilian clothing to confuse soldiers. THEY chose to hide in amongst the population, THEY chose to send young girls with a hand grenade in one arm and a Kuran in the other to attack soldiers, THEY solicited young kids to pass weapons between their 'bases' (all acounts from the field).

Had they taken the fight to the less crowded areas of the Gaza strip like any moral 'army' would do, civilians would not have been harmed.

One of the reasons the army progressed as fast as it did in the first days of the ground offensive is the fact Hamas retreated its forces to Gaza city, where they knew Israel would have to fight in amongst the innocent population. They deliberately took the fight to the crowded neighbourhoods of refugee camps.

Sometimes it seems they value their population's lives less than their enemies.

Rani

23rd January 2009, 20:20

This is sad to say there is speculation that children are killed intentionally to cut Hamas regeneration off. Adult Hamas may be the main target, but they don’t seem to have regret at all in case civil particularly children are killed in their operation.

The insinuations that children were killed intentionally is simple and utter BS.
What makes you thing no one regrets the fact children were killed. Nobody wants that here. Hell, israelis from near where I live donated warm clothing, blankets and toys to the Gaza strip. Not exactly murderous behavior if you ask me.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/218275/123141401343.htm

Donations flow in for emergency medical aid

Following the appeal PHR-Israel sent out for aid to Gaza hospitals, numerous people from Israel - both Jews and Arabs - and overseas sent us donations, whether as small symbols of support and protest from individuals or as more significant donations for concrete aid. PHR-Israel is purchasing a first dispatch implants for urgent orthopedic procedures today, to a value of about 100,000 US dollars.

Roamy

23rd January 2009, 20:30

So Rani
We need you to respond. From what I hear Obama favors a country Palestine. How would you go about achieving this long sought after problem. How do you think the UN will go about this?

Eki

23rd January 2009, 20:45

Why don't you come live in Sderot to see how well that statement holds up...

Well, first of all I have no urge to move from Finland at all. The second, I know there's a small risk in living in Israel, so I don't understand why so many have moved from relatively safe Western Europe and North America to Israel.

Daniel

23rd January 2009, 20:59

Why don't you come live in Sderot to see how well that statement holds up...
Better yet why don't you ask the families of those killed by Hamas' numerous terrorist attacks how real the damage is.

Why don't you ****ing come and bulldoze my town and then give it an Israeli name like you did with Sderot..... then when my people get annoyed and want their land back you can play innocent like you are now :rolleyes:

Tomi

23rd January 2009, 21:02

It was in the papers yesterday that some swedish shops has forged the origin of israeli fruits so that people would buy.

Roamy

23rd January 2009, 22:08

Why don't you ****ing come and bulldoze my town and then give it an Israeli name like you did with Sderot..... then when my people get annoyed and want their land back you can play innocent like you are now :rolleyes:

Hey I want to drive the bulldozer !! make that a D9 cat please!!

Rani

23rd January 2009, 23:33

So Rani
We need you to respond. From what I hear Obama favors a country Palestine. How would you go about achieving this long sought after problem. How do you think the UN will go about this?
Bush also wanted to give them a country, and so did naughty William. By now even we want to give them a country but who would you give it to?
People don't seem to understand there are now two palestinian entities:
Hamas we all know and love controls Gaza and Fatah headed by who the westerners call Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazzen to us locals). These two factions are in real war - Fatah prosecuting and jailing Hamas in the west bank and Hamas lynching Fatah and throwing them off buildings in Gaza city (this is said to have happened numerous times).

Before you can do anything this must be resolved, after which I think the consensus in Israel is that a palestinian nation in return for them accepting us as a country and not being hell bent on jihad is a pretty good deal.

The UN, as it proves time and time again in southern Lebanon by not enforcing resolution 1701, is incompetent aqt it's job. I don't think it'll interfere in the creation of a palestinian state, just as it won't put it's men on the line by interfering in the current strugle of powers between Fatah and Hamas.

Camelopard

24th January 2009, 02:53

The insinuations that children were killed intentionally is simple and utter BS.

No rebutal of children being shot at close range then?

quote "There were no fighters here," he added, picking up crisp bags printed with Hebrew lettering that the soldiers seemed to have left behind. "Do you think soldiers eat crisps sitting on their tanks when there is incoming fire?"

Lots more stories coming out now of people holding white flags being deliberately shot.

I also notice you haven't defended the tank crew that shot at the UN forklift. Have they received their medals yet?

quote "No one believes propaganda so much as the propagandist, so Israel's view of the outside world is increasingly detached from reality."

Rani

24th January 2009, 08:45

No rebutal of children being shot at close range then?

quote "There were no fighters here," he added, picking up crisp bags printed with Hebrew lettering that the soldiers seemed to have left behind. "Do you think soldiers eat crisps sitting on their tanks when there is incoming fire?"

Lots more stories coming out now of people holding white flags being deliberately shot.

I also notice you haven't defended the tank crew that shot at the UN forklift. Have they received their medals yet?

quote "No one believes propaganda so much as the propagandist, so Israel's view of the outside world is increasingly detached from reality."
The bottom line is this:
I know the army, I know the kind of education a soldier receives through his training concerning morals and ethics. I also know a whole lot of soldiers who were inside. They have no murderous intentions - they are normal people like me and you. They haven't been taught to 'kill the enemy' on tv shows from a young age.

Their may have been a lot of mistakes, any army would have had friendly fire incidents and shells that accidentaly hit innocent people fighting in such a crowded arena - an arena the Hamas chose for these reasons precisely I might add.

It is a fact Hamas snipers hid in normal homes with families still hiding inside - you can't complain for such houses being shot at in return.

I don't buy innocent people being deliberately shot - this isn't the brutal moralless army you try to paint it to be. I know this for a fact and

Lots more stories coming out now of people holding white flags being deliberately shot.

are lies if you cant prove it. If there is clear evidence it's another matter.
If you think the UN fork lift was intentional, do you also think firing at a house filled with IDF soldiers was intentional?

Camelopard

24th January 2009, 09:30

The bottom line is this:
I know the army, I know the kind of education a soldier receives through his training concerning morals and ethics. I also know a whole lot of soldiers who were inside. They have no murderous intentions - they are normal people like me and you. They haven't been taught to 'kill the enemy' on tv shows from a young age.

Their may have been a lot of mistakes, any army would have had friendly fire incidents and shells that accidentaly hit innocent people fighting in such a crowded arena - an arena the Hamas chose for these reasons precisely I might add.

It is a fact Hamas snipers hid in normal homes with families still hiding inside - you can't complain for such houses being shot at in return.

I don't buy innocent people being deliberately shot - this isn't the brutal moralless army you try to paint it to be. I know this for a fact and

are lies if you cant prove it. If there is clear evidence it's another matter.
If you think the UN fork lift was intentional, do you also think firing at a house filled with IDF soldiers was intentional?

As usual, the typical israeli response when anyone questions their actions, you have many people disagreeing with the official idf line even from within israel, but you can't (don't want to, I suspect) even think that your precious idf are capable of commiting war crimes.....

I dare say that there are lots of Americans these days that still say Mai Lai was a case of mistaken identity............ give me a break!

Of course you are going to say a snipper was firing at me, that is a pretty damn good defense if you are charged with war crimes. As said many times before and you refuse to listen, check out the USS Liberty site, check out the murdering of unarmed UN Peace Keepers on the Lebanon border...

None so blind as those who can not see.........

Camelopard

24th January 2009, 09:45

Before you accuse the ABC of bias, it like all mainstream news sites in Australian are vehemently pro israel,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/20/2469609.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/18/2468475.htm

"The sheer number of Palestinian dead in the conflict - 1,200, of whom 410 are children - has also led to calls by human rights groups and aid workers for Israel to face examination under international criminal law, specifically on the issue of "proportionality" in the prosecution of the war."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/16/2467716.htm

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950849606&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439741.htm

http://www.btselem.org/english/

http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/20090118.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/20090107_Luaay_Subuh_blinded_by_bombing.asp

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/gazacrisis,0,split-in-israel-cabinet-reported-as-war-crimes-concerns-grow,70091

I personally would believe a palestinain who has seen his family murdered, rather than believe the usual tripe that the jewish media sprouts....

How many more news links do you want?

As for being an apologist for the idf, you, in my opinion are no better than David Irving..............

Camelopard

24th January 2009, 10:06

http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1818.shtml

"Occupation forces assassinated a seventeen year-old Palestinian youth, Naser Mustafa Odeh Al-A’raj from the village of Azzun on January 13th. Originally, he was said to have been shot by a settler from Immanuel settlement, but now reports are emerging that it was the Occupation forces who deliberately killed him.

Naser was with three other youth in the vicinity of Immanuel settlement, near where settlers reported stones being thrown at some vehicles. Occupation forces arrived at the scene and confronted the youth about their presence, accusing them of being the ones who threw the stones. According to Al Arabiya television network, they captured Naser, tied his hands behind his back, forced him to get on his knees, and shot him in the head, in an assassination-style murder.

Occupation forces then prevented the Palestine Red Crescent ambulances from approaching the location of the shooting, and denied medics any access to the body. They transported Naser to an Israeli hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The Occupation forces are currently refusing to return his body to his family, and have stated that they will conduct an autopsy themselves.

The other youth who were with Naser at the time were arrested at the scene, and are still being held by the Occupation. One of them was shot in both legs before being arrested."

http://stopthewall.org/communityvoices/1800.shtml

?The fertile Jordan Valley has long been a target of the Occupation’s colonial aims. Due to its abundance of water resources, rich soil, and natural minerals, the Valley has been the site of extensive land confiscation and expulsion of Palestinian residents, especially since the signing of the Oslo Agreement. Oslo severely restricted the Palestinians’ capacity for growth in the region, and effectively opened the door for increased military occupation and settlement expansion that is aimed at eventually eliminating the Palestinian presence in the Jordan Valley. Currently, only 5.62% of the Valley is under Palestinian control, while 94.37% lies under the Occupation’s control."
"The villagers’ freedom of movement is also severely restricted, as they are prohibited from leaving the village and establishing a home elsewhere in the Jordan Valley. Given the fact that all of the villagers are Bedouin, this restriction on their movement is an assault on their traditional way of life. Indeed, the Bedouin have lived for centuries as a semi-nomadic people, so to constrain them in such a small area is in essence a means of destroying their culture and their identity."
"Hassan further adds that there are severe inhibitions on Palestinians’ ability to grow crops in the area, as the Occupation has confiscated most of the land.Even those who are able to cultivate a small plot of land are disadvantaged, as they are barred from selling their produce to all international markets, and to some domestic ones as well.?

"According to Hassan, however, this strategy is in vain. “We will not leave this land,” he says. “If we are born here, we will die here.” Hassan and other villagers are incredulous when settlers from the US, Russia, Germany, France, Ethiopia, and other places around the world say “this is our land” when neither they nor their families have ever lived in the Jordan Valley."

Camelopard

24th January 2009, 10:15

Guess these guys were hiding snipers as well, or maybe they had a few Finish UN Peacekeeprs in their house!

http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20090118_Soldiers_kill_Atiyyah_a_Samuni.asp

Soldiers kill father and 4-year-old son and wound other family members in their home, a-Zeitun neighborhood, Gaza City, 4.1.09 Throughout Saturday night, 3.1.09, the Israeli air force bombed targets in the a-Zeitun neighborhood in Gaza City. On Sunday morning, troops entered the neighborhood.
In one section of the neighborhood, which houses the extended a-Samuni family, several events occurred that day in which civilians were killed and wounded. The circumstances of each case are being investigated by B’Tselem.
One of these events occurred in ‘Attiyah a-Samuni’s house. According to testimonies gathered by B’Tselem, 19 members of the family sheltered throughout the night in a single room.
Faraj a-Samuni related the events of that night to B’Tselem:
According to the above testimony and the testimony of Fahed a-Samuni (http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/20090104_Soldiers_kill_Atiyyah_a_Samuni_witness_Fa hed_a_Samuni.asp), on Sunday morning, 4 January, around 7:20 A.M., soldiers fired a shell that landed near the family home. ‘Attiyah a-Samuni, the father, left the door to the house open to ensure minimum harm to the house and its occupants if soldiers wished to enter it. A few minutes later, soldiers arrived at the house and called on the father of the family to step out. As ‘Attiyah a-Samuni approached the door, one of the soldiers ordered him to raise his hands and then, without warning, the soldiers opened fire and killed him, in front of his family. They then continued to shoot into the room in which the family was gathered, injuring several members.
A short while later, the soldiers ordered the remaining family members to leave the house, wounded and healthy alike. After they had walked less than a kilometer, another group of soldiers ordered them back to the a-Samuni section, denying them the possibility of getting the wounded persons to hospital. The family found shelter with a relative, and the wounded were left untreated until the next morning. The next day, 5.1.09, 4-year-old Ahmad a-Samuni died of the wounds he had received to the chest.

Daniel

24th January 2009, 10:55

He also accuses the BBC of being biased.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848673.stm

Absolute load of spineless scummy retards.

Daniel

24th January 2009, 10:57

As for being an apologist for the idf, you, in my opinion are no better than David Irving..............

I would argue that he's worse. The Holocaust is over and even if someone says it never happened it doesn't make a blind bit of difference but denying that these war crimes which were only recently committed ever happened IS something which will cause more people to be killed.

Rani

24th January 2009, 12:51

I would argue that he's worse. The Holocaust is over and even if someone says it never happened it doesn't make a blind bit of difference but denying that these war crimes which were only recently committed ever happened IS something which will cause more people to be killed.
Your lack of respect towards other posters on this forum is simply astounding. You have no idea what went on in Gaza - yet you still only take half the story. I have a much better idea than you having been there and talked to others who were actually there in this campaign, yet you call me a liar from thousands of miles away.
You try again and again to cheapen the Holocaust (something I very rarely discuss), something which I find very low.
Denying the Holocaust happened and making it sound like something which should be long forgotten and forgiven will make it possible to occur again in the future. Forget the jews this could happen to any population - even fat people born in Australia for that matter.

Comparing the Holocaust to the operation in Gaza is completely prepostrous. Even Camelopard who is very much against my views yet doesn't get dragged to these populistic opinions, simply because he seems to check his facts before he draws, unlike you.

I guess people are just used to your profane language, childish responses and hypocritical views because you practically waste your life away whinging and whining away your years on this forum. I won't take it without responding.

Rani

24th January 2009, 13:02

I personally would believe a palestinain who has seen his family murdered, rather than believe the usual tripe that the jewish media sprouts....

How many more news links do you want?

As for being an apologist for the idf, you, in my opinion are no better than David Irving..............
I personally would believe my friends and base my judgements on things i've seen. There was a recent story of 'an elderly woman pushed down the stairs by IDF' which turned to be a woman who confronted soldiers physically and was then surprised she was pushed away. Your stories sound a lot similar. Bring me clear evidence - unbiased of course, of these kinds of murderous acts and I will agree with you whole heartedly. Until then I won't.

I think you truly brought your posts to new lows comparing me to David Irving.

I could just as well compare you to J. Goebles as a mirror image, but I don't believe the Holocaust should be cheapened and worn while being used as a tool of leverage in a unrelative arguments. I find this remark very populistic.

Daniel

24th January 2009, 14:39

Your lack of respect towards other posters on this forum is simply astounding. You have no idea what went on in Gaza - yet you still only take half the story. I have a much better idea than you having been there and talked to others who were actually there in this campaign, yet you call me a liar from thousands of miles away.
You try again and again to cheapen the Holocaust (something I very rarely discuss), something which I find very low.
Denying the Holocaust happened and making it sound like something which should be long forgotten and forgiven will make it possible to occur again in the future. Forget the jews this could happen to any population - even fat people born in Australia for that matter.

Comparing the Holocaust to the operation in Gaza is completely prepostrous. Even Camelopard who is very much against my views yet doesn't get dragged to these populistic opinions, simply because he seems to check his facts before he draws, unlike you.

I guess people are just used to your profane language, childish responses and hypocritical views because you practically waste your life away whinging and whining away your years on this forum. I won't take it without responding.

I didn't compare it to the holocaust. I merely compared your views to those of David Irving. :rolleyes:

Roamy

24th January 2009, 15:49

Bush also wanted to give them a country, and so did naughty William. By now even we want to give them a country but who would you give it to?
People don't seem to understand there are now two palestinian entities:
Hamas we all know and love controls Gaza and Fatah headed by who the westerners call Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazzen to us locals). These two factions are in real war - Fatah prosecuting and jailing Hamas in the west bank and Hamas lynching Fatah and throwing them off buildings in Gaza city (this is said to have happened numerous times).

Before you can do anything this must be resolved, after which I think the consensus in Israel is that a palestinian nation in return for them accepting us as a country and not being hell bent on jihad is a pretty good deal.

The UN, as it proves time and time again in southern Lebanon by not enforcing resolution 1701, is incompetent aqt it's job. I don't think it'll interfere in the creation of a palestinian state, just as it won't put it's men on the line by interfering in the current strugle of powers between Fatah and Hamas.

it looks to me as they should go with the guy from the west bank. Buy the land equal to gaza from Jordan and make the big move.

BDunnell

24th January 2009, 16:35

He also accuses the BBC of being biased.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848673.stm

Absolute load of spineless scummy retards.

I think this refusal by the BBC is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be overturned at once. There is no sense of bias attached to broadcasting a humanitarian appeal. Unfortunately, the BBC has been becoming increasingly spineless since the Hutton report, a problem exacerbated by the Ross/Brand 'incident'. When coupled with the fact that the Israeli government's monitoring of the media is, as I have said before, so great in its paranoid extent that the BBC will be subject to a torrent of unjustified abuse if it does broadcast the appeal, you are left with a very sad state of affairs.

Hondo

24th January 2009, 16:38

Hamas praised for their victory in Gaza.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232643735505

Reminds me of Operation Market-Garden in WW II when afterwards, with higher allied causualties than the D-day invasion and Montgomery claiming a victory, Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands said his country could "never again afford the luxury of another Montgomery success."

donKey jote

24th January 2009, 17:19

Dispatches - Unseen Gaza

Jon Snow examines the difficulties faced by news organisations when covering the conflict in Gaza, asking whether what has been reported is a true reflection of events on the ground. He also looks at how reports differ from country to country, comparing the coverage available on terrestrial channels with satellite TV and the internet and investigating to what extent British Muslims are bypassing mainstream media and looking elsewhere for their information.

torrents abound, for those who couldn't watch it on TV :)

Daniel

24th January 2009, 20:13

airshifter

24th January 2009, 22:42

I would argue that he's worse. The Holocaust is over and even if someone says it never happened it doesn't make a blind bit of difference but denying that these war crimes which were only recently committed ever happened IS something which will cause more people to be killed.

I didn't compare it to the holocaust. I merely compared your views to those of David Irving. :rolleyes:

The Holocaust is a proven historic fact, and it is well documented that it took place.

I've seen video of Hamas rocket fire from within civilian populated areas, by men not in uniform. Those actions are war crimes. I've not seen any video of IDF forces intentionally targetting civilians. If you have any links to such intentional acts, please post them.

I might further add that nobody has claimed any intentional act by IDF forces should not go unpunished, simply that there seems to be a lack of evidence of such intentional acts taking place.

For someone that accuses Americans and others of being biased, you often forget that in those instances you claim we must all admit there were wrongs done by both sides in this conflict.

airshifter

24th January 2009, 22:57

As usual, the typical israeli response when anyone questions their actions, you have many people disagreeing with the official idf line even from within israel, but you can't (don't want to, I suspect) even think that your precious idf are capable of commiting war crimes.....

I dare say that there are lots of Americans these days that still say Mai Lai was a case of mistaken identity............ give me a break!

Of course you are going to say a snipper was firing at me, that is a pretty damn good defense if you are charged with war crimes. As said many times before and you refuse to listen, check out the USS Liberty site, check out the murdering of unarmed UN Peace Keepers on the Lebanon border...

None so blind as those who can not see.........

See my above post, for it applies to your point of view and accusations as well. The Mai Lai massacre, and sadly others, have been tried in courts and proven as intentional acts of brutality.

I haven't seen where Rani has defended IDF actions proven to have taken place and proven to be intentional acts. He even openly offered that:

The bottom line is this:
I know the army, I know the kind of education a soldier receives through his training concerning morals and ethics. I also know a whole lot of soldiers who were inside. They have no murderous intentions - they are normal people like me and you. They haven't been taught to 'kill the enemy' on tv shows from a young age.

Their may have been a lot of mistakes, any army would have had friendly fire incidents and shells that accidentaly hit innocent people fighting in such a crowded arena - an arena the Hamas chose for these reasons precisely I might add.

It is a fact Hamas snipers hid in normal homes with families still hiding inside - you can't complain for such houses being shot at in return.

I don't buy innocent people being deliberately shot - this isn't the brutal moralless army you try to paint it to be. I know this for a fact and

are lies if you cant prove it. If there is clear evidence it's another matter.
If you think the UN fork lift was intentional, do you also think firing at a house filled with IDF soldiers was intentional?

Take note of the fact that Rani doesn't defend any acts proven to be done intentionally, but makes exception to them. IMHO this is hardly a person showing blind faith, simply an opinion that you reject.

Camelopard

24th January 2009, 23:05

I might further add that nobody has claimed any intentional act by IDF forces should not go unpunished, simply that there seems to be a lack of evidence of such intentional acts taking place.

As if that is going to happen.

As I have said before the idf is a law unto its self.
What happened to the ones responsible for attacking UN observers in 2006?
Probably all got medals..........

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Despite_6_warnings_Israel_bombed_and_killed_4_UN_o bservers

"An Israeli bombardment killed four United Nations Observers, despite multiple warnings by UN peacekeeper. The peacekeepers at the post said the area within a kilometer of the post was hit with precision munitions, including 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells, four of which directly hit the UN observation post. The fatal strike with a "precision-guided weapon" according to UN military personnel hit the post at about 7.20pm. The victims were Austrian, Canadian, Chinese and Finnish UN-observers.

"Following an initial inquiry, it appears that during the operation a UN post was unintentionally hit....." Yeah, pull the other one.................

Another one for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling

The shelling of Qana, also referred to as the Qana massacre,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling#cite_note-1) took place on April 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_18), 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996) in Qana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana), a village in Southern Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Lebanon), when Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) artillery hit the area of a UN compound near Qana. Of the 800 Lebanese civilians who had taken refuge in the compound to escape the fighting, 106 were killed and around 116 injured. Four Fijian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji) United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Interim_Force_in_Lebanon) soldiers were also seriously injured. [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling#cite_note-3)
The incident took place amid heavy fighting between the Israeli Defense Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Defense_Forces) and Hezbollah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah) during "Operation Grapes of Wrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grapes_of_Wrath)". AUnited Nations military investigation later determined it was unlikely that Israeli shelling of the U.N. compound was the result of technical or procedural errors.

For a country that owes it's existence tot he UN, it seems that they don't like the UN very much!

Hondo

25th January 2009, 02:48

For a country that owes it's existence tot he UN, it seems that they don't like the UN very much!

It owe's it's creation to Britain and the UN, it owes it's existence to the fact that it has stomped every Arab force thrown against it.

Spare me the aid arguments. Israel had top of the line (sometimes) US stuff, but the Arabs had top of the line Soviet stuff. It's not about what they had, it's about how they used what they had in the field.

Camelopard

25th January 2009, 03:51

Spare me the aid arguments.

Sorry I don't understand this point, what do you mean?

Hondo

25th January 2009, 03:59

The often spoken belief that Israel has triumphed only because of US military aid. They forget the Soviets aided the other side just as lavishly.

gloomyDAY

25th January 2009, 06:07

The often spoken belief that Israel has triumphed only because of US military aid. They forget the Soviets aided the other side just as lavishly.What about today? Israel is just a vassal of America. Obama has stated that he wants the borders to re-open in Gaza, which will happen unless Israel wants their aid to get the axe.

Hondo

25th January 2009, 06:41

What about today? Israel is just a vassal of America. Obama has stated that he wants the borders to re-open in Gaza, which will happen unless Israel wants their aid to get the axe.

American aid via official channels is now a luxury for Israel. It's nice to have, but they don't need it. They would continue to receive aid from private sources as did the IRA and as does al-Qaeda and Hamas. They manufacture their own small arms and main battle tanks. They are capable of and probably have reverse engineered any weapon systems they have gotten their hands on and could probably manufacture most of those. Other manufacturers and countries would gladly sell them anything they need. Dassault wouldn't pass up a chance at Israel's business. Neither would Saab.

I wouldn't want to be a foot soldier in the army that tries to remove Israel from the map. It could be done, but the cost both in money and carnage just isn't worth it. There's no prize except a Palestinian homeland and one of the Arab countries will grab that. Iran likes to run it's head but you don't see them making moves. Their army is a joke and they know it.

gloomyDAY

25th January 2009, 08:48

American aid via official channels is now a luxury for Israel. It's nice to have, but they don't need it. They would continue to receive aid from private sources as did the IRA and as does al-Qaeda and Hamas. They manufacture their own small arms and main battle tanks. They are capable of and probably have reverse engineered any weapon systems they have gotten their hands on and could probably manufacture most of those. Other manufacturers and countries would gladly sell them anything they need. Dassault wouldn't pass up a chance at Israel's business. Neither would Saab.

I wouldn't want to be a foot soldier in the army that tries to remove Israel from the map. It could be done, but the cost both in money and carnage just isn't worth it. There's no prize except a Palestinian homeland and one of the Arab countries will grab that. Iran likes to run it's head but you don't see them making moves. Their army is a joke and they know it.Glad you have that position on American aid to Israel. Considering the economic status of America, they should cutoff any handouts to Israel and use that flow of weapons/money to either Afghanistan or Iraq. Probably never happen since America needs a foothold in the Middle East that isn't Arab.

Hondo

25th January 2009, 09:11

Glad you have that position on American aid to Israel. Considering the economic status of America, they should cutoff any handouts to Israel and use that flow of weapons/money to either Afghanistan or Iraq. Probably never happen since America needs a foothold in the Middle East that isn't Arab.

Why?

Daniel

25th January 2009, 10:15

The Holocaust is a proven historic fact, and it is well documented that it took place.

And I have two legs. What's your frigging point?

Daniel

25th January 2009, 10:29

Dave B

25th January 2009, 10:43

I think this refusal by the BBC is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be overturned at once. There is no sense of bias attached to broadcasting a humanitarian appeal. Unfortunately, the BBC has been becoming increasingly spineless since the Hutton report, a problem exacerbated by the Ross/Brand 'incident'. When coupled with the fact that the Israeli government's monitoring of the media is, as I have said before, so great in its paranoid extent that the BBC will be subject to a torrent of unjustified abuse if it does broadcast the appeal, you are left with a very sad state of affairs.

Remember though that initially it wasn't just the BBC. ITV, Channel Four, Five and Sky also refused.

Since then, ITV have buckled to government pressure - in unrelated news the Culture Secretary is to make a decision soon over ITV's public service obligations which Michael Grade claims are crippling their profitability.

Also Channel Four and Five have caved in - in unrelated news the Digital Britain working group soon has to make a decision about Four's public funding, one of the possibilities suggested by OFCOM is a merge with Five.

To be clear: I'm not suggesting that any of these circumstances have influenced the broadcasters' desicions. Oh no.

Sky are still considering their position, and ironically the BBC's refusal to air this appeal has probably given it many times the publicity it would otherwise have received.

Camelopard

25th January 2009, 11:04

and in other news Israel continue with their blockade in Gaza. Hmmmm I wonder if the people will get pissed off and feel the need to attack Israel if they can't rebuilt their homes or get essential medicines....... Hmmm what do you people think?

Sorry for getting you in the sh!t Daniel, anyway some more links for those that want to widen their knowledge on Palestinian affairs, reports that the latest war has only strengthened the hand of Hamas. now there is a schock!

http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/hamas-after-the-gaza-war?1

"In this case, the outcome of the Gaza war of 2008-09 is likely to leave Hamas (http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/) stronger and with an enhanced legitimacy among the Palestinians and within the region. Israel has pursued its official (http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/the_Front/08/oper/default.htm) goal of "achieving a new security situation" in southern Israel with ferocity: its use of massive military force has in (at the time of writing) twenty days of war killed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7828884.stm) over 1,033 Palestinians, around 600 of them women and children. Yet it has failed either to silence Hamas's primitive rockets or to destroy its ability to function as a coherent entity."

The idf is going to have to kill every Palestinian alive before the Palestinians will be defeated regardless of what israeli politicians say:

"The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people", said Moshe Yaalon, the then Israel Defence Forces chief-of-staff in 2002. "

Leaves a lot of room for negotiation doesn't it?

This from prior to the attack on Gaza from an israeli journalist who was arrested for visiting Gaza, shows how free the press is in this democracy (free as long as you toe the zionist line!).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1042654.html

Lot's of support from the Israeli press Council. I think not......, but hey, in the eyes of the west, it's the only true democracy in the region........

"Israel Press Council chairwoman Dalia Dorner, a former Supreme Court justice, commented that even journalists are subject to the law and the council cannot defend a reporter who breaks the law. Instead, she said, local journalists ought to petition the High Court of Justice against the army's order."

So who is in charge of israel, the elected government, or the idf?

This is one of her reports.

http://whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=2721

Making the Muslim Brotherhood stronger from an israeli source:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733134432&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

From that bed of leftist revolutionary thought, the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/29/AR2008122901901_pf.html

"By choosing the waning days of the Bush administration to attack Gaza, the Israelis knew they would face no opposition from the leader of the so-called war on terrorism. Just as George W. Bush (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/George+W.+Bush?tid=informline)'s misadventure in Iraq played into the hands of radicals and terrorists, this Israeli action will produce nothing less than that in Palestine."

BDunnell

25th January 2009, 13:04

Remember though that initially it wasn't just the BBC. ITV, Channel Four, Five and Sky also refused.

Since then, ITV have buckled to government pressure - in unrelated news the Culture Secretary is to make a decision soon over ITV's public service obligations which Michael Grade claims are crippling their profitability.

Also Channel Four and Five have caved in - in unrelated news the Digital Britain working group soon has to make a decision about Four's public funding, one of the possibilities suggested by OFCOM is a merge with Five.

To be clear: I'm not suggesting that any of these circumstances have influenced the broadcasters' desicions. Oh no.

Sky are still considering their position, and ironically the BBC's refusal to air this appeal has probably given it many times the publicity it would otherwise have received.

All very true.

Rani

25th January 2009, 15:10

"The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people", said Moshe Yaalon, the then Israel Defence Forces chief-of-staff in 2002. "

Can you post a source for this? I've searched for one in hebrew and haven't found one.

I don't share the same beliefs, and the vast majority in Israel doesn't as well.

in the eyes of the west, it's the only true democracy in the region........

The fact you bring up articles written by extremely left wing israelis while I see no articles written by extreme left wing palestinians, lebanese, syrians and iranian says something in my view.

Israel is a democracy. Best example for it is the fact we have some arab reps in the Knesset who want this country gone and help its enemies. Like Azmi Bishara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azmi_Bishara) for example.

"Bishara is accused of giving Hizbullah information on strategic locations in Israel that should be attacked with rockets during the 2006 Lebanon War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War), in exchange for huge amounts of money."

This country is so democratic this man was able to have a long and fruitful career in undermining this country. In every other 'democracy' this man would either be executed or be thrown in jail for life.

jim mcglinchey

25th January 2009, 17:47

BBC. It seems to me that the " professional integrity and their strictly observed impartiality, yahh" are more important to the the BBC hacks than the plight of a bunch of Arabs.

gloomyDAY

25th January 2009, 18:12

Why?I think it's just a matter of trust.

Who would you rather have as an ally in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia or Israel? That's why you don't shaft friend's especially if they're vital to your interests in a particular region. I just don't agree with Israel's treatment of Gaza, but the reaction wasn't necessarily unwarranted.

Israel is token player in keeping Iran on the down-low. You're right about Ahmadenijad, he barks a lot but never bites. I'm sure Israel is just itching to blast their nuclear reactors.

BDunnell

25th January 2009, 18:22

BBC. It seems to me that the " professional integrity and their strictly observed impartiality, yahh" are more important to the the BBC hacks than the plight of a bunch of Arabs.

In themselves, integrity and impartiality are admirable. However, in this case, it is clear the BBC is scared of a backlash caused by the Israelis.

Rani

25th January 2009, 18:40

Israel is token player in keeping Iran on the down-low. You're right about Ahmadenijad, he barks a lot but never bites. I'm sure Israel is just itching to blast their nuclear reactors.
I think Ahmedinejad is just biding his time to strike, take as much time as it may. I also think history has taught us that threats like the ones sounded by him are to be taken seriously. His intentions and aspirations are very dangerous not only to Israel, but to the entire western world. Maybe not to countries like Finland, but certainly to the US and to the UK.

I am not as sure as you are about Israel wanting to strike, though. It seems an attack would only set them back a few years, while putting a lot of lives in jeopardy.

Daniel

25th January 2009, 18:42

I think Ahmedinejad is just biding his time to strike, take as much time as it may. I also think history has taught us that threats like the ones sounded by him are to be taken seriously.

LOL I agree. Just like Saddam eh? If history has taught us anything it's that these people who talk loud aren't a threat at all and even when they are (see Cuban Missile Crisis) the best form of defence is diplomacy. But you guys will continue to think everyone is against you and strike out at everyone until everyone IS actually against you.

Hondo

25th January 2009, 18:51

I think it's just a matter of trust.

Who would you rather have as an ally in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia or Israel? That's why you don't shaft friend's especially if they're vital to your interests in a particular region. I just don't agree with Israel's treatment of Gaza, but the reaction wasn't necessarily unwarranted.

Israel is token player in keeping Iran on the down-low. You're right about Ahmadenijad, he barks a lot but never bites. I'm sure Israel is just itching to blast their nuclear reactors.

My question of "why" was asking why we need any foothold in the Middle East? The little bit of oil we get from the Middle East could easily be made up by domestic production or other sources. Nobody, except those that lived under it, view communisim as a threat anymore. The Saudis, Egyptians, and Jordan will provide, under the table, all the financial aid Israel might require because as long as Israel exists, they get a break from the Jihadists. One of bin Laden's big complaints is when Iraq invaded Kuwait Osama offered to bring his al-Qaeda fighters to Saudi Arabia to prevent Iraq's invasion of that country too. In addition, Osama and his human bombs would throw the Iraqis out of Kuwait. The Saudis, deeply concerned about being invaded, politely took Osama's number then called the USA for assistance as fast as they could dial. As ridiculous as the Iraqi army was, the Saudis knew theirs would fall apart also and probably pass the retreating Kuwait army on the way out. The USA and the coalition came and got the job done, and bin Laden hates everybody for it. Another of bin Laden's demands are for the US "invaders" to leave Saudi Arabia.

Unlike the West, the moderate Arab states don't pooh-pooh the threat of al-Qaeda and their stated desire to force the world to accept their radical version of Islam. They are a problem in Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia and those governments act ruthlessly and quickly to shut them down as they are discovered.

There is no longer reason for the USA to be in the Middle East. We become the targets of complaints and violence for little or no return. Let the Middle East deal with their own problems and any other nation dependent on them can feel free to pitch in their share of help.

We need to just come home. It's not our fight.

Rani

25th January 2009, 18:53

LOL I agree. Just like Saddam eh? If history has taught us anything it's that these people who talk loud aren't a threat at all
Yeah!
Hitler is a great example of that. I bet Churchill was mocked by people like you non stop. 'that Hitler - all he does is talk loud I bet he won't do anything. That Churchill - all he wants is war and he'll bring down our precious economy!'

I say hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I really hope you're right about Ahmedinejad.

Daniel

25th January 2009, 18:55

Yeah!
Hitler is a great example of that. I bet Churchill was mocked by people like you non stop. 'that Hitler - all he does is talk loud I bet he won't do anything. That Churchill - all he wants is war and he'll bring down our precious economy!'

I say hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I really hope you're right about Ahmedinejad.

Actually tbh I hope you're right about Ahmedinejad :)

Rani

25th January 2009, 19:07

Actually tbh I hope you're right about Ahmedinejad :)
:kiss:

Then I hope gloomyDAY is right

I hope Osama is serious in targetting the uk for establishing Israel . Now wouldn't that be ironic... ;)

Daniel

25th January 2009, 19:14

:kiss:

Then I hope gloomyDAY is right

I hope Osama is serious in targetting the uk for establishing Israel . Now wouldn't that be ironic... ;)

You've obviously been listening to a bit too much Alanis Morisette. That's not ironic in any way shape or form.....

Rani

25th January 2009, 19:20

You've obviously been listening to a bit too much Alanis Morisette. That's not ironic in any way shape or form.....
Merriam Webster sides with me on this one.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony
check definition 3.

Could it be you're receiving an english lesson from an Israeli with polish roots? :arrows:

Eki

25th January 2009, 20:18

But you guys will continue to think everyone is against you and strike out at everyone until everyone IS actually against you.
So true. Self-fulfilling prophecies are the only prophecies that will happen for sure.

Eki

25th January 2009, 20:20

Merriam Webster sides with me on this one.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony
check definition 3.

Could it be you're receiving an english lesson from an Israeli with polish roots? :arrows:
Why did you leave Poland? I was in Cracow once, it seemed quite nice. What I thought was strange was that the only tourist attractions they advertised seemed to be a salt mine and the Auschwitz concentration camp. I went to the zoo instead, much nicer but it was in the middle of a forest and not much advertised.

Rani

25th January 2009, 20:33

Why did you leave Poland? I was in Cracow once, it seemed quite nice. What I thought was strange was that the only tourist attractions they advertised seemed to be a salt mine and the Auschwitz concentration camp. I went to the zoo instead, much nicer but it was in the middle of a forest and not much advertised.
My grandparents left Poland. By the skin of their teeth and without their brothers and parents that is.

Camelopard

25th January 2009, 22:14

"Bishara is accused of giving Hizbullah information on strategic locations in Israel that should be attacked with rockets during the 2006 Lebanon War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War), in exchange for huge amounts of money."

Source?

Camelopard

25th January 2009, 22:18

AUnited Nations military investigation later determined it was unlikely that Israeli shelling of the U.N. compound was the result of technical or procedural errors.

Some more info on this one:

The UN appointed military advisor Major-General Franklin van Kappen of the Netherlands to investigate the incident. His conclusions were:
“ (a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact. (b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.
(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.
(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.
(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.
(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.
While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors. [15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling#cite_note-UN_S1996337_page6-14)

Rani

25th January 2009, 22:20

Source?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azmi_Bishara
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3391929,00.html

May I add this country which he allegedly betrayed is so democratic he is still being paid a large pension for his term in the Knesset.

Hondo

26th January 2009, 00:50

Daniel

26th January 2009, 01:00

Hondo

26th January 2009, 01:21

And someone is a non-combatant based on what? No visible weapons, like the fine young men that set off the bombs in London? The young lady with explosives under her clothes that did her suicide bombing last week? I can see where any trooper serving in a hot zone against the likes of Hamas and al-Qaeda would consider any and all people regardless of sex or age a combatant target until proved otherwise. These are the conditions Hamas and al-Qaeda have created for themselves to win the very reactions you display.

Camelopard

26th January 2009, 01:27

No one is being unrealistic! Any conflict is going to have civilian casualties. It's a sad reality. The problem comes when soldiers see that someone is a non-combatant and still shoot them. That's a war crime and should be punished.

Exactly, my point all along has been that the idf can do what ever they like with impunity, of course civilians will get killed, particularly when deliberately targeted and there is lot's of proof out there that this has been done, as per my Qana link and mant many others that I have posted.

How many idf members have ever been charged? The idf brass would back them all the way and it's easy to use the excuse that there were snipers, of course no-one in mainstream israel is going to not believe you.

I'll see if I can find that news report mentioned on here a while that caused a ruckus, rani said the person concerned would be charged and deserved to go to prison, if my memory serves me correctly, may take a while but I'll find it. I'd be very interested to find out, bet he got a medal!!!!

Camelopard

26th January 2009, 01:38

The Mai Lai massacre, and sadly others, have been tried in courts and proven as intentional acts of brutality.

Just as an aside, what was the sentence given to the perpetrators of this intentional act of brutality?

"Of the 26 US soldiers initially charged with criminal offences for their actions at My Lai, only William Calley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley) was convicted. He served four and a half months of his two-year sentence!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do the maths, 347-504 unarmed civilians murdered, 1 soldier gets 4 1/2 months..................... Utterly reprehensible......

poor old lindy england must feel very hard done by :) , she had to serve 521 days before being paroled......

Camelopard

26th January 2009, 01:41

Source?

Actually I should have said 'source' and 'relevence' to a democratic country having a free press.
He isn't the only israeli politician to have issues with the law, but we won't go there, will we?

Camelopard

26th January 2009, 02:03

I'll see if I can find that news report mentioned on here a while that caused a ruckus, rani said the person concerned would be charged and deserved to go to prison, if my memory serves me correctly, may take a while but I'll find it.

He'll go to prison for that, and he deserves every month inside.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k_TgttR9V0k

So Rani what happened to this dude? A slap on the wrist perhaps?

Any punishment would be for getting caught on film doing this, not for the actual act it's self :) .

http://apartheidagain.blogspot.com/2008/07/israeli-soldier-shoots-at-bound-and.html

"The army have declared a curfew on the village on numerous occasions in the last month as a result of the demonstrations which means that villagers cannot leave their homes for any reason. As a result, international activists have begun staying in the village to witness and document the abuse of human rights. While staying with a family last week, an international working with ISM was shown a video by a young girl which she had filmed a couple of weeks ago. The video showed a soldier shooting at a Palestinian villager with a rubber coated steel bullet. The man had been detained by the Israelis during a demonstration, he was bound and blindfolded and being held by a lieutenant colonel as the shot was fired. Here is a link to the video:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20080720.asp

It should be noted that while the Israeli army has condemned the actions of the soldier, the lieutenant colonel who not only witnessed the attack but actually held the prisoner’s arm as the shot was fired, took no action following the incident. The only reason this has come to light is that the video was uncovered, if it hadn’t been then nothing would have been done and nobody would have known about it. One can only wonder how many other incidents like this go unnoticed in Palestine."

Hondo

26th January 2009, 02:06

Just as an aside, what was the sentence given to the perpetrators of this intentional act of brutality?

"Of the 26 US soldiers initially charged with criminal offences for their actions at My Lai, only William Calley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley) was convicted. He served four and a half months of his two-year sentence!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do the maths, 347-504 unarmed civilians murdered, 1 soldier gets 4 1/2 months..................... Utterly reprehensible......

poor old lindy england must feel very hard done by :) , she had to serve 521 days before being paroled......

I would imagine both of them felt very hard done considering the airmen that carried out the bombing of civilian population centers during WW II were charged with nothing at all. And the amount of civilians they killed in one night makes Gaza look like a joke. That includes German, Japanese, Italian, UK and the Commonwealth, USA, and the Soviets. Might as well throw in the sailors that served in submarines and surface sailors that took part in shore bombardments. Field artillery troopers, mortar crews, tank crews, etc.

Camelopard

26th January 2009, 02:09

I would imagine both of them felt very hard done considering the airmen that carried out the bombing of civilian population centers during WW II were charged with nothing at all. And the amount of civilians they killed in one night makes Gaza look like a joke. That includes German, Japanese, Italian, UK and the Commonwealth, USA, and the Soviets. Might as well throw in the sailors that served in submarines and surface sailors that took part in shore bombardments. Field artillery troopers, mortar crews, tank crews, etc.

You have lost me, you were the one that said Mai Lai was an intentional act of brutality....

Hondo

26th January 2009, 03:21

Not me. I am not the one you seek.

Camelopard

26th January 2009, 08:42

Not me. I am not the one you seek.

Yep, my apologies, it was airshifter, you all sound the same to me :) .

steve_spackman

26th January 2009, 15:13

This entire back and forth about civilian casualties is ridiculous. The lofty, moral judgements imposed by the terminally idealistic, most of whom I would venture to guess have never been in a combat situation or under hostile fire, are equally ridiculous.

War. The leadership of one nation and therefore it's population, enter into armed conflict with another nation and it's population when no diplomatic solution is forthcoming. People, military and civilian, die and become injured during wars. They always have and always will. That is a matter for the leadership to decide the importance of before beginning the war. Civilian casualties during war is not something that just started happening. Since the end of WW II, some governments do try to minimize civilian casualties. When either side mingles it's fighting forces and logistical support among civilians, they are endangering their own populations purposely.

If you can talk both sides into having their war in a vacant lot somewhere, you can minimize the civilian death toll, maybe eliminate it.

War is about pure-d stomping the living, breathing dog crap out of your adversary so severely that you destroy his will and means to continue the war.

This Palestinian-Israel stuff isn't war. It isn't allowed to be. Like schmenke said earlier "Hamas is just the pointy end of a long stick..." and he's right. Hamas does not want an outright war. They want to raise a ruckus, get a few innocents killed and have the world jump in and stop it so they can whine to the world media how they have been badly victimized.

Hamas wants Israel gone? They want a war? By all means, let them have their war with Israel and the rest of the world can stay out of it.

i did myself some research on this conflict and here are my findings...

]How does a defensive action result in the total conquest of someone else's lands? The answer is that it does not. Israel is the aggressor. The maps of Israel then and now prove it.

Such a land grab is NOT the result of a defensive act, but of an invasion to bring Jerusalem under Israeli control, even though Jerusalem was not originally part of Israel.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1851.jpg

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1864.jpg

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1866.jpg

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1887.jpg

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg

who remembers this....

The Lavon Affair http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/lavon.html

Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

You know, if the United States REALLY wanted peace in Palestine, all they have to do is stop signing the cheques that pay for Israel's war machine.

Roamy

26th January 2009, 16:20

i did myself some research on this conflict and here are my findings...

Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

Goooood Morning TIRE (The Islamic Reputlic of Europe)

Hey Spackman - last week we were controlled by the Mexicans - make up you mind I am tired of making all these freakin flags and learning all these languages. Have a great day Muhammed Spackman

Daniel

26th January 2009, 16:23

Goooood Morning TIRE (The Islamic Reputlic of Europe)

We're as much a continent of Muslims as you as a country full of paedophiles.

USA - Land of the Paedophile.

schmenke

26th January 2009, 16:28

..."There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969...

Technically that is correct.

Roamy

26th January 2009, 16:30

We're as much a continent of Muslims as you as a country full of paedophiles.

USA - Land of the Paedophile.

yea and we are trying to send them to Dubai Daniel Kazab

steve_spackman

26th January 2009, 16:59

Technically that is correct.

Technically no such place as Israel...

steve_spackman

26th January 2009, 17:02

Goooood Morning TIRE (The Islamic Reputlic of Europe)

Hey Spackman - last week we were controlled by the Mexicans - make up you mind I am tired of making all these freakin flags and learning all these languages. Have a great day Muhammed Spackman

so what languages have you learnt thus far my friend??

"allah is great" LOL

Hondo

26th January 2009, 17:13

We've been through the maps already, a couple of pages back. What they prove is picking the losing side in a conflict will probably result in a loss of territory.

Hondo

26th January 2009, 17:30

EU commissioner tells it like it is.....Hamas "shocked".

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232643751651

Hondo

26th January 2009, 17:37

steve_spackman

26th January 2009, 17:43

EU commissioner tells it like it is.....Hamas "shocked".

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232643751651

i can assure you he speaks for himself..not me

Hondo

26th January 2009, 17:49

He speaks for the facts. He doesn't care what you think. Still, very surprising statement from a liberal statesman.

schmenke

26th January 2009, 18:11

Technically no such place as Israel...

Correct, however I was referring to Golda Maier's statement that Palestinians as a people never existed.
Although the territory of "Palestine" has existed as, collectively, a Jewish, Muslim and Christian holy land for thousands of years, the national identity of "Palestinians" is a relatively recent recognition.

Hondo

26th January 2009, 19:23

And again, Britain did very careful investigations on the same subject before signing off on the creation of Israel. Their investigations concluded there was no sense of a national identity in Palestine.

schmenke

26th January 2009, 22:48

And let's also keep in mind that both Israel and Palestine were created at the time.
The Brits (it as actually the United Nations) did not simply "carve" Israel out of Palestine :mark:

gloomyDAY

27th January 2009, 04:53

My question of "why" was asking why we need any foothold in the Middle East? The little bit of oil we get from the Middle East could easily be made up by domestic production or other sources. Nobody, except those that lived under it, view communisim as a threat anymore. The Saudis, Egyptians, and Jordan will provide, under the table, all the financial aid Israel might require because as long as Israel exists, they get a break from the Jihadists. One of bin Laden's big complaints is when Iraq invaded Kuwait Osama offered to bring his al-Qaeda fighters to Saudi Arabia to prevent Iraq's invasion of that country too. In addition, Osama and his human bombs would throw the Iraqis out of Kuwait. The Saudis, deeply concerned about being invaded, politely took Osama's number then called the USA for assistance as fast as they could dial. As ridiculous as the Iraqi army was, the Saudis knew theirs would fall apart also and probably pass the retreating Kuwait army on the way out. The USA and the coalition came and got the job done, and bin Laden hates everybody for it. Another of bin Laden's demands are for the US "invaders" to leave Saudi Arabia.

Unlike the West, the moderate Arab states don't pooh-pooh the threat of al-Qaeda and their stated desire to force the world to accept their radical version of Islam. They are a problem in Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia and those governments act ruthlessly and quickly to shut them down as they are discovered.

There is no longer reason for the USA to be in the Middle East. We become the targets of complaints and violence for little or no return. Let the Middle East deal with their own problems and any other nation dependent on them can feel free to pitch in their share of help.

We need to just come home. It's not our fight. :up:

USA, time to GTFO. I'm sure Obama is contemplating such a feat.

Camelopard

27th January 2009, 05:10

The bottom line is this:
I know the army, I know the kind of education a soldier receives through his training concerning morals and ethics. I also know a whole lot of soldiers who were inside. They have no murderous intentions - they are normal people like me and you.

Looks like some education processes need a review, or are these acceptable acts by your buddies?

"Inside Moussa's house, most of the furniture has been broken up, the electrical equipment destroyed, crockery smashed and the refrigerator upended.In the bedrooms, all the clothes were dumped on the floor and smelled like they had been urinated on.

Family photographs had been defaced, some with drawings of penises, stars of David and other slogans.
Graffiti sprayed in green paint on the walls declared "No Arabs living in Israel", "Israel Lives!" and "Arabs need 2 die".

"There was no one from Hamas here," Moussa said. "This was a safe area. I want a court to investigate this."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/amid-the-devastation-angry-survivors-want-to-know-why/2009/01/26/1232818339541.html

I can already read your response, "there was a sniper in the house!" "No one can prove israeli soldiers defaced the photographs and wrot the slogans." "They wouldn't do that, they are good blokes just like me and you..." :(

What happened to the soldier that shot the handcuffed, blindfolded guy? I eagerly await your response.

Hondo

27th January 2009, 05:33

Camelopard

27th January 2009, 06:10

You know Camelopard, if you and spackman feel so strongly about this issue, except for the fact that they'd kill you, there is nothing stopping you gentlemen from joining Hamas, getting fitted for a nice explosive 3-piece suit, and wandering into a crowd of Israelis.

I find that comment incredibly offensive. As far as I know I have not insulted you (vop maybe) and I would like an apology.

I do not and have never supported terrorism, I have a great deal of sympathy for the down trodden and underprivileged people in the world. I have demonstrated outside the front of the Indonesian Embassy and written letters complaining about their treatment of the original inhabitants of West Papua, demonstrated against the treatement of the East Timorese prior to them gaining independence, including protesting against apartheid in South Africa.

You don't know how many other causes I have supported over the years, you don't know how many letters I have written to all sorts of governments complaining about human rights abuses, including letter writing to the Burmese junta regarding their treatment of Aung Sang Su Kyi. You don't know how many organisations I belong too, or for that matter anything else about me.

You don't know how many aid angencies and charities I support, or how many children I help support in third world countries.

My dislike for the policies of israel, how do know that it doesn't stem from the time I spent there as a very idealistic volunteer working on a Kibutz (it was then pitched as the ultimate form of socialism) and saw first hand how badly the Palestinians are treated?

Like most people growing up in the west in the sixties I was fascinated by Israel and how it came about, I lapped up the books of Leon Uris and still have my origianl copy of Exodous and Mila 18, felt sorry for them for what they had gone through and realised thay needed a home to call their own. Then as I got older I started to read more about the Palestinians and their side of the story. It doesn't mean that I have changed all my previous views on israel, just for the life of me I can't see how they can continue to treat the Palestinians as if it were an Aparthied state.

Camelopard

27th January 2009, 06:32

During times like these and posts like those I'm reminded of a photograph that became famous around the world. It was taken during the invasion of China by Japan in the late 30's or early '40s by a photographer from Life Magazine. It showed a Chinese toddler sitting on the ground crying among the bombed out ruins. This photo tugged at the heartstrings of the world in sympathy with China while reaffirming what bast@rds the Japanese were. It wasn't until well after the conclusion of the war that it came out that the photographer had slapped the fire out of the kid to make him cry because it made a better picture.

Yep and I also remember how the bs story of how babies were thrown out of their cribs by Iraqi soldiers when they invaded Kuwait.

Turns out that the one tugging at the heartstrings (mine included) wasn't a nurse and not even in Kuwait at the time, she was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/thelie.htm?q=thelie.htm

Then there is the bs surrounding Jessica Lynch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch

Lynch served in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) during the 2003 invasion by U.S. and allied forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq). On March 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_23), 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003) she was injured and captured by Iraqi forces, but was recovered on 1 April by U.S. special operations forces, with the incident subsequently receiving considerable news coverage.
Lynch, along with major media outlets, has since accused the U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._government) of fabricating this story as part of the Pentagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Department_of_Defense)'s propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-MYTH_MAKING-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-YOUTUBE_VIDEO1-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-3) to manipulate the American and global public opinion into accepting and sympathizing with the 2003 invasion of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq) effort.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-7)

On April 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_24), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007) she testified in front of Congress that she had never fired her weapon; her M16 rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle) jammed, as did all weapons systems assigned to her unit, and that she had been knocked unconscious when her vehicle crashed.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch#cite_note-YOUTUBE_VIDEO1-1) She woke up later in an Iraqi hospital. She accused members of the media and the military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military) of lying for their own gain. She said during her testimony, "They should have found out the facts before they spread the word like wildfire."

What do you (not you in particular, just people in general) believe? Every story that comes out of the Palestinian side, some of them, none as they are all fabricated? Anything or everything said on talkback shows?
Do you not trust anything that is written without seeing it for yourself? What about manipulated videos and photographs?
Everything that comes out of the White House or Parliament House in Canberra is true just because they say it is? No questioning of anything? Accept everything that is said?

Point is Rani says no member of the idf would do such things and if they did they would be prosecuted, sorry that doesn't stand up. His story of the old lady pushed out of the way. Who do you believe the idf members (mates probably, there to protect and look out for each other) or the locals?

As has been proven on film, idf members do shoot handcuffed, blindfolded protesters as short range, helped by what is probably their commanding officer. Do you believe that it happened, of has it been fabricated?

leopard

27th January 2009, 06:43

I do not and have never supported terrorism, I have a great deal of sympathy for the down trodden and underprivileged people in the world. I have demonstrated outside the front of the Indonesian Embassy and written letters complaining about their treatment of the original inhabitants of West Papua, demonstrated against the treatement of the East Timorese prior to them gaining independence, including protesting against apartheid in South Africa.

The case is different, separatism shouldn't be anyhow comparable. The independence of Timor Leste was the big hole being unable to stand against continued international pressure, esp Australia interfering the territory to urge independence. The senior oracle has forecasted they will be back to its origin integrity considering they don't have enough resource to enable them live by means of their own power...

Roamy

27th January 2009, 06:46

so what languages have you learnt thus far my friend??

"allah is great" LOL

corona con limon is about as good as it gets :p

leopard

27th January 2009, 06:47

The Palestinians wouldn't need any aid or financial help if they'd go get the $2 billion dollars Arafat stole from them before he died. The PLO even had to negotiate with his widow (living in luxury in Paris, not a refugee camp) to get some of the money returned. They didn't get much.

What would they want get returned, that amount was used to negotiate her to convert to islam before she was known to observe different religion again ...

leopard

27th January 2009, 06:57

Originally Posted by steve_spackman
"allah is great"

Thank God ...

Camelopard

27th January 2009, 07:03

Just following on from earlier comments on 'what do you believe' coincidentally this news story was on the next website I went to:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/27/2475461.htm?section=justin

and I quote: "When you tell these stories no-one believes you, but I have the photographs," he said.

Roamy

27th January 2009, 07:37

I find that comment incredibly offensive. As far as I know I have not insulted you (vop maybe) and I would like an apology.

I do not and have never supported terrorism, I have a great deal of sympathy for the down trodden and underprivileged people in the world. I have demonstrated outside the front of the Indonesian Embassy and written letters complaining about their treatment of the original inhabitants of West Papua, demonstrated against the treatement of the East Timorese prior to them gaining independence, including protesting against apartheid in South Africa.

You don't know how many other causes I have supported over the years, you don't know how many letters I have written to all sorts of governments complaining about human rights abuses, including letter writing to the Burmese junta regarding their treatment of Aung Sang Su Kyi. You don't know how many organisations I belong too, or for that matter anything else about me.

You don't know how many aid angencies and charities I support, or how many children I help support in third world countries.

My dislike for the policies of israel, how do know that it doesn't stem from the time I spent there as a very idealistic volunteer working on a Kibutz (it was then pitched as the ultimate form of socialism) and saw first hand how badly the Palestinians are treated?

Like most people growing up in the west in the sixties I was fascinated by Israel and how it came about, I lapped up the books of Leon Uris and still have my origianl copy of Exodous and Mila 18, felt sorry for them for what they had gone through and realised thay needed a home to call their own. Then as I got older I started to read more about the Palestinians and their side of the story. It doesn't mean that I have changed all my previous views on israel, just for the life of me I can't see how they can continue to treat the Palestinians as if it were an Aparthied state.

I think many feel sorry for the underprivileged but unfortunately they in many case are just being used for cannon fodder. The underprivileged need to support a leader who will make a difference in their lives for the better. As you well know, voting Hamas in and firing rockets at israel was a death sentence for many innocents. But it is plain to see that this is the Hamas way. World sympathy for terrorist. This is wrong and you as you background shows, know this better than most. If the Pales banded around a real leader and strived to live peacefully Israel would leave them alone. The blockade - certainly because of the track record. If the pales would have elected and got behind a real leader they would probably in fact have their own country.
You can see what has happened to Rhodesia - Do you really think they are better off than before. Not that Apartheid is correct but just declaring equality at then turning your back while the ruthless bandits take over is certainly not even as good. I have come on here may times posting my dissatisfaction with the rogue nations. It seem the left calls this freedom and a right to create nations of terror. Then for those countries fighting terror we are now the terrorist in your eyes. Well the world is a living sh!thole right now and certainly supported by many on this forum. The toothless UN - probably the most disgusting organization I know can't make any difference anywhere in the world.
So where is this all going. Well if the powerful nations can't stop the rogue nations then we are going for WWW3 and the only question remaining is how soon. Then you will really see death as no one can even imagine! So maybe some really need to pick a better route if they really want to make a change. This forum is many cases is the "history" channel. Maybe your salvation is the future and not the past!!

Daniel

27th January 2009, 16:16

Nice work again Israel......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7853803.stm

steve_spackman

27th January 2009, 17:24

Roamy

27th January 2009, 19:39

Nice work again Israel......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7853803.stm

I see you are talking sh!t again - trying to make Israel out the bad guy

The incursion follows a bomb attack which killed one Israeli soldier and wounded three near the Gaza border.

Daniel

27th January 2009, 20:15

I see you are talking sh!t again - trying to make Israel out the bad guy

The incursion follows a bomb attack which killed one Israeli soldier and wounded three near the Gaza border.

I didn't deny that. The thing is this person could have been anyone.... could have been an Israeli. But rather than see what the deal was Israel barges over the border, invades gaza again and pisses people off again. Hmmmm I wonder if the Palestinians will send more bombs and rockets :dozey:

Rani

27th January 2009, 21:05

I didn't deny that. The thing is this person could have been anyone.... could have been an Israeli. But rather than see what the deal was Israel barges over the border, invades gaza again and pisses people off again. Hmmmm I wonder if the Palestinians will send more bombs and rockets :dozey:
Who could have been anyone?

Hmmmm I wonder what will happen if we do nothing!?

Oh that's right everyone always acts the nicest to the pushover wuss that always folds and bends over - not!

Eki

27th January 2009, 21:13

The incursion follows a bomb attack which killed one Israeli soldier and wounded three near the Gaza border.
What the f**k were the Israeli soldiers doing near the Gaza border? I thought they were supposed to retreat from the area. If there had been Hamas suicide bombers lurking near Tel Aviv, I wouldn't have blamed the Israeli for killing them.

Rani

27th January 2009, 21:40

What the f**k were the Israeli soldiers doing near the Gaza border?
It's called p-a-t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g.

Camelopard

27th January 2009, 21:42

It's called p-a-t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g.

I presume that your lack of response regarding the soldier who shot a blindfolded, handcuffed protester means that nothing happened to him? :(

Camelopard

27th January 2009, 21:43

It's called p-a-t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g.

I presume that your lack of response regarding the soldier who shot a blindfolded, handcuffed protester means that nothing happened to him at all, which is pretty much what I expected? :(

Rani

27th January 2009, 21:53

I presume that your lack of response regarding the soldier who shot a blindfolded, handcuffed protester means that nothing happened to him at all, which is pretty much what I expected? :(

I actually have no idea what happened to him. I heard is commander was punished but not severly enough in my view.

I think they both deserve some time in a military jail - no excuses for such actions. At least the victim of it all is healthy now.

Roamy

28th January 2009, 04:41

I didn't deny that. The thing is this person could have been anyone.... could have been an Israeli. But rather than see what the deal was Israel barges over the border, invades gaza again and pisses people off again. Hmmmm I wonder if the Palestinians will send more bombs and rockets :dozey:

You Euros are thick learners. What part of screw with me and you lose dearly don't you guys get???? It looks pretty simple to me. But you new rulers are thick also so I guess it is just rubbing off. Oh well let the bombs fly I am going to uncork a bottle of red!!

leopard

28th January 2009, 04:52

I think this is nice read may be useful to enlighten some people the real fact is happening there. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-slater/a-message-to-israel-time_b_155978.html

Daniel

28th January 2009, 08:58

Who could have been anyone?

Hmmmm I wonder what will happen if we do nothing!?

Oh that's right everyone always acts the nicest to the pushover wuss that always folds and bends over - not!

That's not what I'm saying at all.

You just don't get it do you? They're as thick as you sadly...... so if they kill you and you kill them for a bit of revenge then they'll simply keep on trying to kill you.

What you need to do is open the borders, check everything going in and make an open declaration that if there are any attacks in the future and it can be proven that they are linked with Hamas you will invade Gaza again and ensure that Hamas ceases to exist. Now that's a pretty serious threat and one that I'm sure Israel is willing and able to carry out. Once you have achieved this relationship with Hamas you can work with them to wipe out any pockets of people wanting to disturb the peace. Sure the Palestinians will never like Israel (would you after what they've been through?) but if Israel tries a bit more carrot and a lot less stick they'll encounter a lot less resistance and they'll find things work a lot better. But instead Israel uses the stick and promises the carrot in the future which is never going to work. I mean has Israel ever outlined a timetable for opening the borders up and allowing business as usual?

At the end of the day it doesn't matter much to me. I'm not the one who has to pull my head out of my butt to ensure that I don't have to worry about terrorists :wave: Even Fousto who seems quite rigid on the matter doesn't need to worry about terrorists so his views while being hilariously out of touch with reality have no bearing on his life at all.

Really.... do you honestly think actions such as the invasion of Gaza by Israel are actually going to deter people from attacking Israel? How would you feel if it were the other way round and you were the one blockaded into a small bit of territory and the Palestinians chose to come in and shell fairly indiscriminately? :mark: I'm not talking Chamberlain style allowing of Lebensraum, Israel is very much in a position to dictate terms but they need to be reasonable terms which your average Palestinian can live with.

Cooper_S

28th January 2009, 10:53

You Euros are thick learners....

You Euros?... (Euros are currency, we do not refer to Americans as Dollars) We are Europeans geographically speaking or we are British, French, German etc Nationally speaking... which did you mean to insult.

... are thick learners?... It is either you are thick (period) or it is you are slow learners... however which ever you meant it was far to narrow a description to be accurate...

Europe as a whole has (according to wikipedis) 499,021,851 million people. That is far more diversity than that of the USA and so the views express by individual citizens will naturally vary from being completely in line with your own view to views diametrically opposed to yours...

If you have a problem with some of the views expressed by a few people from Europe Please do not lump everyone in as one.

I'm certain that as an American you do not consider yourself to be all of the same views.

chuck34

28th January 2009, 12:28

I think this is nice read may be useful to enlighten some people the real fact is happening there. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-slater/a-message-to-israel-time_b_155978.html

Ah yes, the great and unbiased huffingtonpost.

What do you think would happen if I posted something here from rushlimbaugh.com?

Try again.

Daniel

28th January 2009, 12:53

Cooper_S

28th January 2009, 13:10

Welcome to the forum :) I see you've met Fousto ;)

Thanks... :)

I am under no illusion that in a section called 'Chit Chat' the normal forum etiquette does not apply, I naturally hold a view on the the events happening in the Middle East but will establish myself on the Motorsport boards before unleashing my views on such emotive topics...

Fousto has his strong views I'm sure, just I dislike when people speak as though all Americans act as one... so I was equally annoyed to see nearly half a billion people of Europe being grouped as one entity and insulted... not nice

I'm sure he and I will agree/disagree on different things... so I don't want to burn any bridges just yet.

Great Forum BTW... very active and membership globally is nice.

John :champion:

schmenke

28th January 2009, 14:48

Hey John welcome to the mad house. Don't let uncle fousto get under your skin. Some of us actually love him, but most of us just endure him :p :

schmenke

28th January 2009, 14:50

... Once you have achieved this relationship with Hamas ...

Achieve a "relationship" with Hamas...? Why would anyone want to achieve a relationship with a terrorist organisation? :s

Daniel

28th January 2009, 16:45

Achieve a "relationship" with Hamas...? Why would anyone want to achieve a relationship with a terrorist organisation? :s

Well beggars can't be choosers. I've not heard of any popular Palestinian political parties which agree with being blockaded in and who favour lobbing hugs over the wall and not rockets.

I'm sure the British government didn't want to deal with the IRA/Sinn Fein but they had to and it has worked hasn't it?

Roamy

28th January 2009, 17:25

You Euros?... (Euros are currency, we do not refer to Americans as Dollars) We are Europeans geographically speaking or we are British, French, German etc Nationally speaking... which did you mean to insult.

... are thick learners?... It is either you are thick (period) or it is you are slow learners... however which ever you meant it was far to narrow a description to be accurate...

Europe as a whole has (according to wikipedis) 499,021,851 million people. That is far more diversity than that of the USA and so the views express by individual citizens will naturally vary from being completely in line with your own view to views diametrically opposed to yours...

If you have a problem with some of the views expressed by a few people from Europe Please do not lump everyone in as one.

I'm certain that as an American you do not consider yourself to be all of the same views.

Yep - good nickname I thought you would like it better than 'Quid"" But now that you mention it I probably better bone up on the currencies of the middle east.
Well I think we have learned - Hama provokes Israel - Israel pounds the hell out of them and unfortunately this includes innocents.

Many times we get lumped together regardless of our view because in many cases the general population can rise up and make a difference. But the avenue is difficult do that so in our case we just pick between two corrupt cheaters and hope for the best.

yes I realize your population is increasing rapidly as 1.5 billion seem to like you diversity as well.

Not to worry I am fully capable of one on one engagement !!

Welcome and does your name imply you drive one of those little "sh!tboxes"

just kidding I love minis :p

Rani

28th January 2009, 17:31

Well beggars can't be choosers. I've not heard of any popular Palestinian political parties which agree with being blockaded in and who favour lobbing hugs over the wall and not rockets.

I'm sure the British government didn't want to deal with the IRA/Sinn Fein but they had to and it has worked hasn't it?
Fo once I actully agree with you (more or less). I also think this is going nowhere fast. I have no illusion that bombing and invading will bring peace to the area, but I think it was neccessary to put a price tag on firing rockets into Israel. I'm all for giving a bit more carrot. Hell I'd love to give all the settlements for the chance of peace and eating Humus in Gaza or Jenin.
What has to be understood is that giving Hamas the carrot without them giving something back would be a huge mistake. Everytime we've made concessions to terrorist organizations we go nothing in return - not only that but they interpret it as signs of weakness and it only makes them fight harder - Hizbuallah and Hamas are great examples.

I urge you to take a look at the Hamas charter:

don't be lazy and read through it. I think it's a dark document - calling for Jihad and the destruction of all jews.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas Principles

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
''Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

''There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

I think the first condition for negotiation on our part would be that Hamas recognize Israel right to exist.

How can you give a carrot to someone who loudly announces he won't settle for anything less than the whole carrot field, your tractor, your livestock, your farm and your two daughters?

Daniel

28th January 2009, 17:35

Well I think we have learned - Hama provokes Israel - Israel pounds the hell out of them and unfortunately this includes innocents.

This is the crux of the issue.

While I don't agree with the US being in Iraq I think they've made a good go at what is a bit of a mess. If a roadside bomb goes off and kills a few Americans they don't go and bomb and shell indiscriminately to get revenge. While I certainly don't agree with the reasons for the US soldiers being there I think they're going about it as best they can :up: There is clearly a lot of thought going on in the US as to how to deal with the problem of Iraq with some sensitivity and with a view to giving Iraq the chance to move forward once the US pulls out.

Israel on the other hand just strikes back wildly and fans the flames of conflict.

schmenke

28th January 2009, 18:01

...

I think the first condition for negotiation on our part would be that Hamas recognize Israel right to exist....

The recognition must be reciprocated. Israelis must recognise Palestinians' right to exist.

Rani

28th January 2009, 18:47

The recognition must be reciprocated. Israelis must recognise Palestinians' right to exist.
We already do. Google Oslo accords.

Daniel

28th January 2009, 19:29

We already do. Google Oslo accords.
Again those are just words like the words Hamas use when they say they want to wipe you off the face of the earth.

schmenke

28th January 2009, 19:31

...And, at least to an oustider like me, the perception is that most Palestinians still see the zionist movement as a threat to their homeland.

Daniel

28th January 2009, 19:32

Fo once I actully agree with you (more or less). I also think this is going nowhere fast. I have no illusion that bombing and invading will bring peace to the area, but I think it was neccessary to put a price tag on firing rockets into Israel. I'm all for giving a bit more carrot. Hell I'd love to give all the settlements for the chance of peace and eating Humus in Gaza or Jenin.
What has to be understood is that giving Hamas the carrot without them giving something back would be a huge mistake. Everytime we've made concessions to terrorist organizations we go nothing in return - not only that but they interpret it as signs of weakness and it only makes them fight harder - Hizbuallah and Hamas are great examples.

I urge you to take a look at the Hamas charter:

don't be lazy and read through it. I think it's a dark document - calling for Jihad and the destruction of all jews.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas Principles

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

I think the first condition for negotiation on our part would be that Hamas recognize Israel right to exist.

How can you give a carrot to someone who loudly announces he won't settle for anything less than the whole carrot field, your tractor, your livestock, your farm and your two daughters?

Just words though. They only say these things because Israel keeps on pushing them and pushing them. I guarantee that if tomorrow Israel opened up the borders with Gaza you'd find 99% of the people who had a problem with Israel would stop and would just start getting on with their lives. The 1% will always be there and are best dealt with by Hamas and Israel in a partnership of sorts. As much as Hamas says it wants Israel wiped off the map I think even the optimistic Hamas official smoking some marijuana while doing a cocktail of other drugs actually believes this or believes that Gaza would survive if they tried.

I think you need to look at this from the point of view that the blockade caused the dissatisfaction that resulted in the missile attacks on Israel....

Daniel

28th January 2009, 19:32

...And, at least to an oustider like me, the perception is that most Palestinians still see the zionist movement as a threat to their homeland.

Pah! Why would they think that after the last few weeks? :dozey:

Rani

28th January 2009, 19:56

Just words though. As much as Hamas says it wants Israel wiped off the map I think even the optimistic Hamas official smoking some marijuana while doing a cocktail of other drugs actually believes this or believes that Gaza would survive if they tried.

You obviously don't get fundamental Islam or its culture.
In these people's minds Israel is a passing phenomenon. They're willing to sacrifice their life and not enjoy what they see as the fruit of their struggle. These are very religious people with fanatic beliefs.

It's not just words - they really believe it without smoking anything. They are willing to continue this struggle for decades - hence they aren't moving an inch in recognizing Israel. The first step to any agreement has to be a change to a more moderate government.

Daniel

28th January 2009, 19:59

You obviously don't get fundamental Islam or its culture.
In these people's minds Israel is a passing phenomenon. They're willing to sacrifice their life and not enjoy what they see as the fruit of their struggle. These are very religious people with fanatic beliefs.

It's not just words - they really believe it without smoking anything. They are willing to continue this struggle for decades - hence they aren't moving an inch in recognizing Israel. The first step to any agreement has to be a change to a more moderate government.

If the general populace actually believed this your boys and girls would have had a frigging hard time invading Gaza and would have been fighting from house to house. Sure there are a few fools who think like this but leave it to their own to take care of this problem.

Roamy

28th January 2009, 20:24

The recognition must be reciprocated. Israelis must recognise Palestinians' right to exist.

so where is your beloved UN. Let the UN create Palestine like the did Israel.

Sh!t at this point they may as well give the Pales Somalia. Clean that sh!thole up in a week with new beach resorts coming.

yodasarmpit

28th January 2009, 20:46

Rani

28th January 2009, 20:50

If the general populace actually believed this your boys and girls would have had a frigging hard time invading Gaza and would have been fighting from house to house. Sure there are a few fools who think like this but leave it to their own to take care of this problem.
My boys did fight from house to house... :rolleyes:

Daniel

28th January 2009, 21:11

My boys did fight from house to house... :rolleyes:
Non-combatants don't count :)

DonJippo

28th January 2009, 21:50

so where is your beloved UN. Let the UN create Palestine like the did Israel.

Arab state was created same time as Israel but most of it is occupied by Israel already since 1949.

Cooper_S

29th January 2009, 00:21

I'm sure the British government didn't want to deal with the IRA/Sinn Fein but they had to and it has worked hasn't it?

Umm... that is not entirely true... Sinn Féin in all it's years as a political party never held outright power... the British Government never dealt with the IRA or more correctly the PIRA, and power sharing only became a reality when the PIRA declared a ceasefire and decommissioned their arms...

Not to use one upmanship when talking about terrorist/freedom fighters (your call) but the N.I. troubles was almost minor compared to the Palestine/Israel 'conflict' and the likelihood of Hamas declaring an 'real' ceasefire let alone decommissioning their weapons... are frankly remote.

Sinn Féin/PIRA are no nearer to a united Ireland than a decade ago... but the real winners are the people of the islands for every day without the fear of sectarian shooting/bombing means a new generation have grown up knowing what a normal life is and that makes a return to the violence less likely...

A sustained and meaningful ceasefire in the Middle East might give both sides a chance to start to move forward...

but I truly cannot see how trust can be installed as things currently stand... it is as if we need to skip a whole generation or even two...

Daniel

29th January 2009, 10:31

Umm... that is not entirely true... Sinn Féin in all it's years as a political party never held outright power... the British Government never dealt with the IRA or more correctly the PIRA, and power sharing only became a reality when the PIRA declared a ceasefire and decommissioned their arms...

Not to use one upmanship when talking about terrorist/freedom fighters (your call) but the N.I. troubles was almost minor compared to the Palestine/Israel 'conflict' and the likelihood of Hamas declaring an 'real' ceasefire let alone decommissioning their weapons... are frankly remote.

Sinn Féin/PIRA are no nearer to a united Ireland than a decade ago... but the real winners are the people of the islands for every day without the fear of sectarian shooting/bombing means a new generation have grown up knowing what a normal life is and that makes a return to the violence less likely...

A sustained and meaningful ceasefire in the Middle East might give both sides a chance to start to move forward...

but I truly cannot see how trust can be installed as things currently stand... it is as if we need to skip a whole generation or even two...

Well of course the conflict in NI was very different to that in Gaza so direct comparisons aren't really all that useful in that sense. But still it shows that violence never solves anything.

Cooper_S

29th January 2009, 10:43

Well of course the conflict in NI was very different to that in Gaza so direct comparisons aren't really all that useful in that sense. But still it shows that violence never solves anything.

Fully agree with that sentiment... Of course another crucial difference in the UK dealings with Sinn Féin is that at no time did SF ever fail to recognise that the UK existed or indeed that it had a right to exist.

I don't believe that all Palestine (or other Arab nations for that matter) do not recognise Israel or it's right to exist but it is a factor in their conflict that was never present in the N.I. troubles...

... and that makes it a much harder problem to solve.

Daniel

29th January 2009, 10:56

Fully agree with that sentiment... Of course another crucial difference in the UK dealings with Sinn Féin is that at no time did SF ever fail to recognise that the UK existed or indeed that it had a right to exist.

I don't believe that all Palestine (or other Arab nations for that matter) do not recognise Israel or it's right to exist but it is a factor in their conflict that was never present in the N.I. troubles...

... and that makes it a much harder problem to solve.

You also have to remember that the UK didn't blockade NI and although there were checkpoints I believe life was a lot easier for people than it is in Gaza now as well as the fact that the British never indiscriminately bombed or shelled NI. To put it into perspective 1000 people (a good deal of them civilians) died in the recent operations in Gaza on the Palestinian side and what was the figure they gave for the troubles in NI? 3600 or something? It just shows the blatant disregard for civilians by Israel. Something like half the people in Northern Ireland who were killed were civilians and I'd wager most of them were killed by the IRA and not the British although they killed their "fair" share no doubt.

It took 3 weeks for Israel to kill as many people as the whole conflict in Northern Ireland took roughly 10 years to kill if we average things out. Israel needs to understand you can't kill large numbers of people and expect people to be happy about it. At least Rani seems to understand this :up:

Cooper_S

29th January 2009, 11:14

Something like half the people in Northern Ireland who were killed were civilians and I'd wager most of them were killed by the IRA and not the British although they killed their "fair" share no doubt.

Actually as the PIRA was mostly attacking the 'establishment' the majority of their victims where so called security targets... of course in any bombing campaign despite giving coded warnings there will always be a risk of collateral damage with innocent people killed or maimed...

Of the purely civilian casualties (non military/police) in the N.I. troubles a larger number where at the hands of Loyalist terrorist gangs and often on their own community (either in power struggles or as punishments - this was prevalent in the Republican side also)... this is not to point fingers but it is often overlooked when discussing the N.I. troubles.

But we are going off topic again... I guess now two conflicts are ever the same and so while the outbreak of peace in N.I. give some hope it will take a different process if it is to be achieved in the M.E.

Eki

29th January 2009, 11:57

Israel could destroy all European capitals with nuclear weapons.
Hey FOUSTO, will your missile defense system you're building in Eastern Europe also protect us from Israeli missiles? I worry more about them than Iran.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/israeli-professor-we-could-destroy-all-european-capitals-0#comments

Israeli Professor:’We Could Destroy All European Capitals’
January 26, 2009 at 09:08 am

By Nadim Ladki

(IAP News) — An Israeli professor and military historian hinted that Israel could avenge the holocaust by annihilating millions of Germans and other Europeans.

Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons.

“We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets of our air force.”

Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, pointed out that “collective deportation” was Israel’s only meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people.

“The Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent.”

Creveld said he was sure that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wanted to deport the Palestinians.

“I think it’s quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed.”

Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rogue state if it carried out a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.”

Creveld argued that Israel wouldn’t care much about becoming a rogue state.

“Our armed forces are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that this will happen before Israel goes under.”

Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP)
http://www.iap.org

Must read this Nostradamus Prediction about World War 3, strangely linked with what the Prof. Creveld trying to convey above!End of days Predictions by Nostradamus Crazed leader launches nuclear bombs on Mediterranean and Europe

(Century II, Quatrains 3 and 4)

During a period of continuing unrest, the leader of a Middle Eastern country will be able to obtain a nuclear weapon. He will go to the greatest lengths over the smallest things and will not hesitate to use the weapon because of his obsessions with deadly warfare. The people he is warring against retaliate with a nuclear weapon. The country has a coast on the Mediterranean.

One of the bombs will land in the Mediterranean instead of the land, poisoning all the fish. The passages of trade in the region will be disrupted so that the people on the other coast will be desperate for food and will eat the fish anyway. It will happen near the east coast of the Mediterranean in a region of dark-colored cliffs.

(Century III, Quatrain 83)

The nuclear weapon being dropped by one of the Middle Eastern countries will spark off yet another war on top of that war. European nations will try to interfere to diminish the threat to oil supplies. When the European countries try to interfere, the crazed leader will use the rest of his arsenal on Europe, most striking the Italian Peninsula.

The European Mediterranean coast, particularly that of Italy and France, will be almost uninhabitable, and Italy will get the brunt. This leader is not the Antichrist but helps to set the stage for the Antichrist to rise to power with little or no opposition.