Israel took a dump on Gaza again....

[Rani]

Sod: Would you be be kind enough to translate your signature line for all of us on both sides of this thread?
I am just asking as I am curious.

It means blah blah (albeit with a spelling mistake).




I don't understand why just Hamas should give up and bend over. Why shouldn't Israelis bend too, and meet them half way?

For the millionth time, they already got us to go halfway by withdrawing from Gaza in 2005. Their own platform states they won't settle for anything less than whole Israel - not halfway by any stretch of the imagination.
You don't get it do you?

[steve_spackman]

the fact as I understand - there was a cease fire in place
it expired and Hamas rained rockets down on Israel

OOps there goes another Hamas terrorist !!!
Go Israel !!!!

If you eliminate Hamas, Hezbolah and the Gov of Iran then Peace will in fact be possible in the middle east.

Hamas is using the Pales as cannon fodder to bring international criticism on Israel. They know they are not match and they know what will happen. I am very sorry the Pales elected this idiots. With a little common sense the Pales could live in harmony. But no terrorists have no regard for anyone. That is why they target civilians and they want the international community to condemn the power. Between the UN and the Terrorists I see little hope for world peace anytime soon. Just hope it doesn't come to you country!!

If you eliminate the US Gov then im sure the world would be a much better place. Im very sorry that people in the US elected a total brain dead president like Bush...

The Govs of the US and Israel should be tried for war crimes....

Also the US Gov has no regard for even its own people...sends them off to fight wars based on a pack of lies.

But then the US empire is slowly coming to a halt. Is going the way that the British and Roman empires went...down the pan...Time for someone else to step up and take over.

[steve_spackman]

the fact as I understand - there was a cease fire in place
it expired and Hamas rained rockets down on Israel


and where did you hear that..let me guess...Fox news. No wonder you are so misinformed.

[Rani]

and where did you hear that..let me guess...Fox news. No wonder you are so misinformed.
I heard it from right outside my window. Is my window misinforming me as well?

[steve_spackman]

I heard it from right outside my window. Is my window misinforming me as well?

you are one of these people who is cheering and waving when you hear and see your armed forces killing women and children are you?

[steve_spackman]

this is not rocket science - as I have said all along - you can relocate israel or this will continue to escalate until all hell breaks lose. I still think Israel will attack Iran before Bush leaves office.

I really dont understand why the american people have to fight another jewish war, ever since world war 2, the middle east has been in conflict because the jews were given land that to be honest, lost eons ago, not decades, you had new people inhabit that land whom are not responsible for what happened in the past and yet they were brushed off the map for the jewish colonization. Now fast forward 60+ years later, I really feel this urgency that the world is going to end up in an world war 3, this my friends is the prelude of what is there to come, they say oil is out of control but there is no shortage of it. I am just taking an educated guess if the oil manipulation is to really fund for the isreal iran war? First, why must we the people pay the prices for the jewish community? They want us to fight their war and yet they reap the rewards except the few in the government that benefits from it. If anyone has to pay the price for atroscities in this world, I say the jews have to. We all know Bush is in bed with them but now APAC is enforcing their rules to comply with both democrats and republicans or else the elected official gets ousted. it is a real shame that whichever politician comes into power have to be an alliance with APAC to stay in power.... The US gives Israel $7million a day in aid..what a waste of money.
“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

[steve_spackman]

I heard it from right outside my window. Is my window misinforming me as well?

well thats not my fault now is it. Its your government along with the US that has caused this mess for people like you.. the troubles arise solely from its unwillingness to give back land it seized in the 1967 war in return for peace with its neighbours

[janvanvurpa]

the fact as I understand - there was a cease fire in place
it expired and Hamas rained rockets down on Israel

OOps there goes another Hamas terrorist !!!
Go Israel !!!!

If you eliminate Hamas, Hezbolah and the Gov of Iran then Peace will in fact be possible in the middle east.

Fousto, that's incredibly optimistic. Not a single Arab/Turkmen country has been able to have anything more than a superficial peace and that only thanks to every one of them having Police and Secret Services that make the old KGB look like a session with Dr Phil.
Brutal, violent suppression of any not of whatever the ruling tribe is is the norm as is a consistent use of the "blame everybody else" tactic.
After 50 years plus of repetition, its not even anything to discuss.

Western disengagement is one solution, and maybe the Isrealis should just sell everything back to the Turks and Arabs they originally bought the place and just move someplace nicer.

It doesn't matter if the Isrealis are educated, democratic, willing to be reasonable and compromise, if the other side has millions of ignorant boys filled with stories----and after the last 20 years, lots of REAL stories---of death and destruction, who want REVENGE.

It's broken there. The situation is broken.

By the way, only a little OT for a motorsports forum but in you signature you say "330 million and not a single US...."

I say the same except about rally, but the population currently is only 305.5 million

[TOgoFASTER]

Sod: Would you be be kind enough to translate your signature line for all of us on both sides of this thread?
I am just asking as I am curious.
Also would you reveal your nationality?
Most posters on this thread have, although it is not really germain to the topic.
Please note I am just asking. It is up to you if you wish to respond.
Any further postings by me will not be influenced by your response.
I naturally can not speak for any other poster.

LOL Freedumb is just another word for nothing left to lose, eh?

I support SOD posting as he wishes as well as anyone else.

For those that don't seem able to Google or approve of thier spoon fed news bits of choice, here is one of many articles on Ehud. Seems he does have a few a problems. Corrupt politician does come to mind.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1001048.html

[TOgoFASTER]

so who do you think is commiting the acts of terror here..Hamas or Israel?

to be honest i feel that they are both as bad as eachother, yet Israel have taken it a bit to far..as usual.

your amazing president said that Hamas is doing acts of terror. He for one cant talk as he has commited acts of terror and killed more innocent people than Hamas has....hypocrite

Can't disagree.
They (both sides) will keep killing until they get tired of it.
Funding/arming/feeding such nonsense anywhere is insane.
Sticks and rocks would end it all much sooner.

[Mark in Oshawa]

How can Bush give Iraq democracy, when the US itself is a republic???

It must be so confusing for the US to call its self free and democratic yet they are nothing more than slaves to the rhythm apart from a very small group of open minded souls. and the funny thing is is that they say that the spread freedom and democracy...utter crap!!


Spackman.....there is no point in arguing with you. If you think all Republics are NOT democratic in nature (The USA the last time I looked elected everyone from dog catcher on up) then you truly are off on your own English Island.

As for your thoughts the Israeli's are living a life of misery like the former citizens of the USSR, you are entitled to your belief but no one who has either been to Israel or has paid any attention to such things as GDP stats and other international measures of a countries freedom and progress would state there is an Islamic state ANYWHERE that has any combination of progress AND freedom to match Israel's. OF course....you are entitled to be wrong...you live in a free country. In Israel you would be entitled to be against the grain there too....try that crap in Saudi Arabia, Egypt or say even Gaza.....go against the powers that be with your thoughts and see how far it goes.

Drop the fiction you are anything but just on your own little agenda.... USSR is Israel? Last time I looked, people were free to leave Israel....the USSR was more or less a police state.

[Roamy]

Spec is just another anti american uninformed Euro - Oh the ugly American rhetoric again and again. Have you ever been to the Andalucia and witnessed how the brits and germans treat the Spanish.

JanVan
As you know I have been very strongly in favor of moving israel over here. I think we should start tomorrow. But as long as that is not going to happen their survival is dependent on a power capable of taking down the whole region. If you look at the population of Israel compared to the region they obviously have a severe problem without Nukes. I can honestly say if I were a Jew I would be really looking at Fousto's immigration plan.

BTW in regard to my signature I was counting the illegals.(:

[steve_spackman]

Spec is just another anti american uninformed Euro - Oh the ugly American rhetoric again and again. Have you ever been to the Andalucia and witnessed how the brits and germans treat the Spanish.

JanVan
As you know I have been very strongly in favor of moving israel over here. I think we should start tomorrow. But as long as that is not going to happen their survival is dependent on a power capable of taking down the whole region. If you look at the population of Israel compared to the region they obviously have a severe problem without Nukes. I can honestly say if I were a Jew I would be really looking at Fousto's immigration plan.

BTW in regard to my signature I was counting the illegals.(:

so sorry to hear you call me anti american uninformed Euro..thats far from the truth. you need to go back and read my posts on this thread to realise i am no way anti american but then when we 'Euros' dont agree with you amazingly crap Foreign policy we are all anti american right? ..well in a way yes i am..its narrow minded, ignorant, arrogant people like you.

[Tomi]

Have you ever been to the Andalucia and witnessed how the brits and germans treat the Spanish.

Many, many times but never seen anything from normal what happens in tourist destinations.

[steve_spackman]

Spackman.....there is no point in arguing with you. If you think all Republics are NOT democratic in nature (The USA the last time I looked elected everyone from dog catcher on up) then you truly are off on your own English Island.

As for your thoughts the Israeli's are living a life of misery like the former citizens of the USSR, you are entitled to your belief but no one who has either been to Israel or has paid any attention to such things as GDP stats and other international measures of a countries freedom and progress would state there is an Islamic state ANYWHERE that has any combination of progress AND freedom to match Israel's. OF course....you are entitled to be wrong...you live in a free country. In Israel you would be entitled to be against the grain there too....try that crap in Saudi Arabia, Egypt or say even Gaza.....go against the powers that be with your thoughts and see how far it goes.

Drop the fiction you are anything but just on your own little agenda.... USSR is Israel? Last time I looked, people were free to leave Israel....the USSR was more or less a police state.
You think i am wrong..thats fine. I can live with that, but stop putting down the people who dont agree with you..

I did not say that Israel is the USSR...need to read my posts a bit more carefully my friend. You have your views and thats amazing..i have mine which is also amazing.

I really think you need to go to Israel and see first hand what its all about, what people say and what people think, THEN you will be more open to the truth..

you should try and broaden your horizons and see things from different sides of the fence..then you would be churping a different tune...

[steve_spackman]

Spackman.....there is no point in arguing with you. If you think all Republics are NOT democratic in nature (The USA the last time I looked elected everyone from dog catcher on up) then you truly are off on your own English Island.

did i say that all Republics are NOT democratic??

I dont recall that one either..you must be seeing things or find it hard to read...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Steve, you said the USA is a republic and NOT democratic. If that isn't the height of silly I don't know what is. Their system is a little complicated and overrought but in the end, people vote and elect their leaders. Last time I looked, that was a democracy.....

[Eki]

Israel has bombed a mosque during prayers and killed at least 13 people. Krystallnacht Israeli style? Mosques burning instead of synagogues.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809959.stm

[steve_spackman]

Steve, you said the USA is a republic and NOT democratic. If that isn't the height of silly I don't know what is. Their system is a little complicated and overrought but in the end, people vote and elect their leaders. Last time I looked, that was a democracy.....

people dont vote for the leaders in the US..its voted for through the electorate college..they decide who is to be president..

[steve_spackman]

Israel has bombed a mosque during prayers and killed at least 13 people. Krystallnacht Israeli style? Mosques burning instead of synagogues.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809959.stm

Israel has never been interested in peace as the final soluton. This is apparent in Israel's horrific treatment of the indiginous population of Palestine and her ongoing feuds/wars with any and all who oppose her politics of aggression, land confiscation and 'targeted' assassinations. The current display of military might against a poorly armed half-starved disenfranchised occupied people is merely another example of Israel's true objectives. Claiming 'victimhood' as reason for all out war against the suffering people of occupied Palestine..and actually being believed... is a great example of bizzare but effective Israeli propoganda in action. This theatre of the absurd continues due to the unconditional support given Israel by the world's only superpower and those nations of the west unwilling to be called 'anti-semitic'... which is always the card played by Israel and world Jewry whenever any criticism is directed at Israel and her terrorist actions. I agree that without US support Israel would be forced to negotiate a just peace. Meanwhile this horrific example of real terrorism in action continues to play out before our eyes..with Palestinians dying and all hope for a just and lasting peace
eroding
Oh, how we love democracy--except when it gives the wrong answer. Hamas was one of the only organizations that sought to provide clothing, education, food, and medical care to the Gazans. How dare they vote for an organization the mighty US has labeled terrorist? Sure Hamas has conducted and encouraged violence against Israel. Then too, Israel conducts violence against the Palestinians, usually at a rate of between 10 and 100 Palestinians for each Israeli. Disproportionate? No, about right when the alleged terrorists refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist. 'Course, Palestine had, has, and will have no right to exist, except perhaps on terms set down entirely by the folks who self righteously stole Palestine from the Palestinians. The ironies of the only nuclear power in the Middle East whingeing about how horribly it is persecuted abound. This time the most delicious one is that Israel keeps insisting the "militants" in Gaza be reined in but target the police whose job is to rein them in. Sometimes the first round of history is farce of an especially cruel sort. The Israeli defense forces have become like the EINSATZGRUPPEN--the SS death squads in eastern Europe during WW II.
The decree that created the state of Israel in 1948 also provided for the creation of a Palestinian state. However, all of the rights the Palestinians might have been given were trashed by Israel and as of today Palestinians simply do not exist; it took them almost 60 years to "be allowed" to have an airport but then Israel bombed it. It is simple enough: its F-16s and Apache helicopters against stone throwers; and the "justification" that Hamas fires rockets at Israel is groundless; they simply do not have the cruel competence Israel has so many times displayed in so many bloodbaths, from other refugee camps, in dropping cluster bombs in Lebanon, and all the rest that is yet to come as the world sleeps over the New Year festivities... And let us not forget that Hamas was "created", encouraged to rise, by Israel, in her efforts to silence the Fatah; Hamas is an Israeli creation; and the media bows to these barbarous acts and behaviour; anyone who dares speak against Israel and the carnage will be branded "anti-semitic"; will one day a film be made about this and screened to everyone so that we can learn of these atrocities? How can a people who are so competent at reminding the world of the Holocaust and the many atrocities then committed - in dozens of films and hundreds of books - do so much worse to children, be it by bombing them out of existence, or simply maiming them beyond repair - as well as keeping them in their hideous prisons - yes, children - with no apparent reason and no right do defense? It is unfortunate but Israel has made it very clear: peace is not the goal, but the death of all Palestinians and While we berate Israel for its murder and destruction against Palestine, no one seems to think or mention that this is exactly what the U.S. of A has done to the Iraqi's for almost seven years! I find it interesting that so many people believe Israel is justified in their actions because Hamas says that Israel does not have the right to exist. When has Israel ever stated in words or in actions that the Palestinians also have a right to exist? I find it absurd that people can support Israel's actions against the Palestinian, yet Palestine is condemned for doing the same thing for the same reasons.

[Rani]

Israel has bombed a mosque during prayers and killed at least 13 people. Krystallnacht Israeli style? Mosques burning instead of synagogues.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809959.stm
Weirdly, each mosque so far has continued exploding after the initial bomb blast.
They hide weapons in their mosques.
Did I mention cynical use of the population ?

[Eki]

Weirdly, each mosque so far has continued exploding after the initial bomb blast.

Says who?

[steve_spackman]

Says who?

says his government..any excuse to have the innocent population killed in there war 'for freedom'

[Rani]

If anyone has to pay the price for atroscities in this world, I say the jews have to.
I'd call that a rather anti semitic generalization (and I don't throw that adjective around).




Israel has never been interested in peace as the final soluton.

I'd say about 5.7 million jordanians and 77.5 million egyptians would argue that.




Sure Hamas has conducted and encouraged violence against Israel. Then too, Israel conducts violence against the Palestinians

How you ignore the fact Hamas targets civilians while Israel targets militants so elegantly.


I've served in the IDF, I've studied the Holocaust pretty well as well. Comparing the Israeli Defense Forces with the EINSATZGRUPPEN is insane.

Your rants are filled with distortions of the truth at best, but usually with FLAT OUT LIES. I wonder if you believe some of the things (read crap) you post here.

Hamas is an israeli creation? Maybe the islamic brotherhood is an israeli creation, too? Hell, maybe Islam is an israeli creation.




I find it interesting that so many people believe Israel is justified in their actions because Hamas says that Israel does not have the right to exist. When has Israel ever stated in words or in actions that the Palestinians also have a right to exist?

The consensus in Israel is that the correct solution is two states for two nations. Not only that, they were offered this by Ehud Barak in 2000. Yasser Arafat declined and turned to terrorism.
Israel wants peace and is willing to concede major parts. We've proved it before.



How can a people who are so competent at reminding the world of the Holocaust and the many atrocities then committed - in dozens of films and hundreds of books - do so much worse to children, be it by bombing them out of existence, or simply maiming them beyond repair - as well as keeping them in their hideous prisons - yes, children - with no apparent reason and no right do defense?


Again, you so elegantly ignore how the palestinians 'educate' and almost breast feed their children hatred towards israelis in Hamas terrorist summer camps and in after school specials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM

[steve_spackman]

I'd call that a rather anti semitic generalization (and I don't throw that adjective around).


I'd say about 5.7 million jordanians and 77.5 million egyptians would argue that.



How you ignore the fact Hamas targets civilians while Israel targets militants so elegantly.


I've served in the IDF, I've studied the Holocaust pretty well as well. Comparing the Israeli Defense Forces with the EINSATZGRUPPEN is insane.

Your rants are filled with distortions of the truth at best, but usually with FLAT OUT LIES. I wonder if you believe some of the things (read crap) you post here.

Hamas is an israeli creation? Maybe the islamic brotherhood is an israeli creation, too? Hell, maybe Islam is an israeli creation.


The consensus in Israel is that the correct solution is two states for two nations. Not only that, they were offered this by Ehud Barak in 2000. Yasser Arafat declined and turned to terrorism.
Israel wants peace and is willing to concede major parts. We've proved it before.



Again, you so elegantly ignore how the palestinians 'educate' and almost breast feed their children hatred towards israelis in Hamas terrorist summer camps and in after school specials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSp-oIOhq00

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html

[steve_spackman]

Originally Posted by Rani
Your rants are filled with distortions of the truth at best, but usually with FLAT OUT LIES. I wonder if you believe some of the things (read crap) you post here.

So its all lies what i have written is it? Compare that to what you are told by your Government....

[Camelopard]

I'd say about 5.7 million jordanians and 77.5 million egyptians would argue that.


Very superficial peace, both countries were driven to peace with israel by the US. How many Jordanians of Egyptians have you spoken to about their peace treaties with israel? Certainly the ones I spoke to (in between watching rally cars whizing by) didn't think too much of the details of the peace treaties, or of israel's treatment of the palestinians but were realistic enough to realise that a war with israel was never winnable given the support that the us gives israel.

[steve_spackman]

so tell me why all around the world there are demostrations about what Israel is doing in Gaza??

[Camelopard]

Israel wants peace and is willing to concede major parts. We've proved it before.

yep by behaving like spoilt brats and completely destroying what was there when leaving and turning the place into a ghost town riddled with land mines, do a google search on Quneitra, have a read of these people's experiences there and look at the photos, in particular the former hospital:

http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Syria/South/Al-Qunaytirah/blog-262872.html

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/2165425.html

http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Syria/South/Al-Qunaytirah/blog-348578.html

[Camelopard]

Israel has never been interested in peace as the final soluton. This is apparent in Israel's horrific treatment of the indiginous population of Palestine and her ongoing feuds/wars with any and all who oppose her politics of aggression, land confiscation and 'targeted' assassinations. The current display of military might against a poorly armed half-starved disenfranchised occupied people is merely another example of Israel's true objectives. Claiming 'victimhood' as reason for all out war against the suffering people of occupied Palestine..and actually being believed... is a great example of bizzare but effective Israeli propoganda in action. This theatre of the absurd continues due to the unconditional support given Israel by the world's only superpower and those nations of the west unwilling to be called 'anti-semitic'... which is always the card played by Israel and world Jewry whenever any criticism is directed at Israel and her terrorist actions. I agree that without US support Israel would be forced to negotiate a just peace. Meanwhile this horrific example of real terrorism in action continues to play out before our eyes..with Palestinians dying and all hope for a just and lasting peace
eroding
Oh, how we love democracy--except when it gives the wrong answer. Hamas was one of the only organizations that sought to provide clothing, education, food, and medical care to the Gazans. How dare they vote for an organization the mighty US has labeled terrorist? Sure Hamas has conducted and encouraged violence against Israel. Then too, Israel conducts violence against the Palestinians, usually at a rate of between 10 and 100 Palestinians for each Israeli. Disproportionate? No, about right when the alleged terrorists refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist. 'Course, Palestine had, has, and will have no right to exist, except perhaps on terms set down entirely by the folks who self righteously stole Palestine from the Palestinians. The ironies of the only nuclear power in the Middle East whingeing about how horribly it is persecuted abound. This time the most delicious one is that Israel keeps insisting the "militants" in Gaza be reined in but target the police whose job is to rein them in. Sometimes the first round of history is farce of an especially cruel sort. The Israeli defense forces have become like the EINSATZGRUPPEN--the SS death squads in eastern Europe during WW II.
The decree that created the state of Israel in 1948 also provided for the creation of a Palestinian state. However, all of the rights the Palestinians might have been given were trashed by Israel and as of today Palestinians simply do not exist; it took them almost 60 years to "be allowed" to have an airport but then Israel bombed it. It is simple enough: its F-16s and Apache helicopters against stone throwers; and the "justification" that Hamas fires rockets at Israel is groundless; they simply do not have the cruel competence Israel has so many times displayed in so many bloodbaths, from other refugee camps, in dropping cluster bombs in Lebanon, and all the rest that is yet to come as the world sleeps over the New Year festivities... And let us not forget that Hamas was "created", encouraged to rise, by Israel, in her efforts to silence the Fatah; Hamas is an Israeli creation; and the media bows to these barbarous acts and behaviour; anyone who dares speak against Israel and the carnage will be branded "anti-semitic"; will one day a film be made about this and screened to everyone so that we can learn of these atrocities? How can a people who are so competent at reminding the world of the Holocaust and the many atrocities then committed - in dozens of films and hundreds of books - do so much worse to children, be it by bombing them out of existence, or simply maiming them beyond repair - as well as keeping them in their hideous prisons - yes, children - with no apparent reason and no right do defense? It is unfortunate but Israel has made it very clear: peace is not the goal, but the death of all Palestinians and While we berate Israel for its murder and destruction against Palestine, no one seems to think or mention that this is exactly what the U.S. of A has done to the Iraqi's for almost seven years! I find it interesting that so many people believe Israel is justified in their actions because Hamas says that Israel does not have the right to exist. When has Israel ever stated in words or in actions that the Palestinians also have a right to exist? I find it absurd that people can support Israel's actions against the Palestinian, yet Palestine is condemned for doing the same thing for the same reasons.

I wish I could put my views as well as you can in your posts.

[steve_spackman]

I wish I could put my views as well as you can in your posts.

its sad that i have to write this stuff but some people need to wake up to the facts....

Israel is the playground bully picking on people who are trying to stand up for themselves.

Although i condone the violence i have to say that Hamas do what they do, as they have no other way of standing up to Israel.. No one will stand up for them until the US minds its own business and leaves the Middle east to its own devices..But then after all we the west are to blame for all that is going on..we dont want to deal with it, but some people think we have a moral right to sort things out. Yet these people seem to make the situation much worse

[steve_spackman]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

[Rani]

Very superficial peace, both countries were driven to peace with israel by the US. How many Jordanians of Egyptians have you spoken to about their peace treaties with israel? Certainly the ones I spoke to (in between watching rally cars whizing by) didn't think too much of the details of the peace treaties, or of israel's treatment of the palestinians but were realistic enough to realise that a war with israel was never winnable given the support that the us gives israel.
No one held a gun to Saddat's and HRM King Hussein's head. They chose what was best for their people, just as Begin and Rabin. The peace is good for everyone both you and I know it.





so tell me why all around the world there are demostrations about what Israel is doing in Gaza??

In the demonstrations I saw held in Paris and London the mass majority of protesters seemed to have a middle eastern look. It's pretty self explanatory.
The fact their media likes to show dead bodies while we respect our dead doesn't hurt either




yep by behaving like spoilt brats and completely destroying what was there when leaving and turning the place into a ghost town riddled with land mines, do a google search on Quneitra


Never been to Quneitra, have seen it from Mt. Bental, though.
Let me get this straight. Syria invades Israel by surprise on our holiest day of the year, gets beaten by a much smaller force, retreats with its tail between its legs and we're to blame for their town's appearance?

[Camelopard]

No one held a gun to Saddat's and HRM King Hussein's head. They chose what was best for their people, just as Begin and Rabin. The peace is good for everyone both you and I know it.

You and I both know that both Egypt and Jordan were coerced into signing a treaty with Israel by the US.

"Begin", you mean the zionist terrorist turned politician that you are talking about here.

[steve_spackman]

No one held a gun to Saddat's and HRM King Hussein's head. They chose what was best for their people, just as Begin and Rabin. The peace is good for everyone both you and I know it.

good for Israel you mean

[Camelopard]

good for Israel you mean

exactly

[Easy Drifter]

And exactly how has peace hurt Eygpt and Jordan?

[Valve Bounce]

This is astonishing: this thread is symptomatic of the conflict in The Gaza. Everyone wants to put forth his own argument, but nobody is interested in the point of view of the other side.

[Roamy]

so tell me why all around the world there are demostrations about what Israel is doing in Gaza??

Because the Islams are taking over the EU - your days as a majority are numbered. You better get your ass over to the local mosque and start praying :p

[steve_spackman]

Because the Islams are taking over the EU - your days as a majority are numbered. You better get your ass over to the local mosque and start praying :p

damn your so paranoid mate..keep off those pills and stick with the others ha ha

[steve_spackman]

I'd call that a rather anti semitic generalization (and I don't throw that adjective around).


I'd say about 5.7 million jordanians and 77.5 million egyptians would argue that.



How you ignore the fact Hamas targets civilians while Israel targets militants so elegantly.


I've served in the IDF, I've studied the Holocaust pretty well as well. Comparing the Israeli Defense Forces with the EINSATZGRUPPEN is insane.

Your rants are filled with distortions of the truth at best, but usually with FLAT OUT LIES. I wonder if you believe some of the things (read crap) you post here.

Hamas is an israeli creation? Maybe the islamic brotherhood is an israeli creation, too? Hell, maybe Islam is an israeli creation.


The consensus in Israel is that the correct solution is two states for two nations. Not only that, they were offered this by Ehud Barak in 2000. Yasser Arafat declined and turned to terrorism.
Israel wants peace and is willing to concede major parts. We've proved it before.



Again, you so elegantly ignore how the palestinians 'educate' and almost breast feed their children hatred towards israelis in Hamas terrorist summer camps and in after school specials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM

http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

[steve_spackman]

Because the Islams are taking over the EU - your days as a majority are numbered. You better get your ass over to the local mosque and start praying :p

so can you tell me where the nearest local mosque is in Texas??

[Hondo]

I doubt it, since he doesn't live in Texas.

[A.F.F.]

For the record, Fousto lives in never-never land.

The former host of that recidence was so ****ed up, even the muslims turned him down :D

[Hondo]

So where were all these international outcrys for Hamas to quit lanching rockets into Israel before the Israeli government decided to act?

[airshifter]

This is astonishing: this thread is symptomatic of the conflict in The Gaza. Everyone wants to put forth his own argument, but nobody is interested in the point of view of the other side.

Obviously most of them feel the only way to revolve the conflict is to listen to nobody and do it their way, without exception.

Israel has stated that they will only agree to a cease fire if international monitors are in place to enforce it. If they read the views of many on these forums, they would probably reconsider such a request.

[Tomi]

The security council did have a meeting today, any ideas why they could not reach an agreement? My guess because of somebody who dont like to listen to anyone else.

[Garry Walker]

damn your so paranoid mate..keep off those pills and stick with the others ha ha
Are you denying islam immigration to europe has turned into a huge problem for western world?

[Mark in Oshawa]

This is astonishing: this thread is symptomatic of the conflict in The Gaza. Everyone wants to put forth his own argument, but nobody is interested in the point of view of the other side.


VB you are right in a sense but if you break down the issue on the merits of what is happening now without dredging up a lot of rot about how rotten each side was to the other in the past lets examine it this way:


Israel awakes one morning to find out rockets are coming over the border and killing their civilians and destroying property. Gaza is the source. Gaza is sealed off because the government of the Palestinians (HAMAS) wont guarntee that this will stop. In fact, they are the ones doing the rocket attack. Hamas wont recognize Israel. Palestinians are upset there is an ecomonic embargo with Israel and they are cut off. Egypt wont trade with them either. Gaza is in a desparate spot.

They have two choices. Fight a war they cannot win or appeal to the world community and shame Egypt, Israel and the world into doing something. This takes time but it is the logical route out. Hamas says screw logic, lets start rocket attacks against Israel. Israel hammers back with maybe more force than they should but lets not split hairs here, they would much rather ignore Gaza than level it. The cost in arms, human life and world opinion doing it this way isn't great but at some point, talking to the idiots that are Hamas isn't getting them anywhere. It HASNT yet.

They dealt with Fatah for years and always were willing to do a deal if Arafat could give them some sort of guarntee of peace and negotiate the occupied territories from there. Heck, they pulled out of Gaza completely and now that is the Palestinian community that is giving them the most grief. So tell me WHY anyone in Israel wants any part of this mess with Gaza? They want this stopped and when the talking wasn't working, they sent in the military.

I don't like what is happening but it is VERY clear to anyone who just thinks honestly about this that the Israeli's are not in a position where they can accept taking 60 to 100 rockets a day and just pretend it doesn't matter. Those who don't want to understand that obviously have some sort of agenda that I figure is anti-Israel at the best and anti-Semitic at its worst.

[leopard]

Rocket Queen... they don't have Appetite for Destructions and killing human as such Civil War.

[DonJippo]

Are you denying islam immigration to europe has turned into a huge problem for western world?

Are you denying Jew immigration to Palestine has turned into a huge problem for whole world?

[Camelopard]

Are you denying Jewish immigration to Palestine has turned into a huge problem for whole world?


I wanted to say that, but I knew M in O would say I was anti-semitic :) !

[Camelopard]

VB you are right in a sense but if you break down the issue on the merits of what is happening now without dredging up a lot of rot......

So you think the Israeli Human Rights organisations that are criticising the treatment of Palestinians are actually talking 'a lot of rot'?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/06/2439741.htm

Did you read this?

http://www.iahushua.com/Zion/zionrac04.html

"Any proposal for Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian peace that does not address the issue of racial discrimination by Israel - that is the Zionist nature of the State of Israel - is thus doomed to fail."

So why can the zionists have terrorists turned politicians and the Palestinians can't?

Zionist Terrorist Menachem Begin Murdered 100 Arabs In Cold Blood at Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948

Surprise: The World Tribunal Never Prosecuted Begin Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir (http://www.deiryassin.org/) Yassin (http://www.deiryassin.org/), a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and according to Plan Dalet, it was to be destroyed and the residents evacuated.
In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage.



If you really think that history has no part in this discussion, you are living in a dream world!

[Eki]

So why can the zionists have terrorists turned politicians and the Palestinians can't?

Probably for the same reason why the Zionists can fire rockets on the Palestinians and the Palestinians can't fire rockets on the Zionists. That reason is the US:

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2009Jan04/0,4670,MLIsraelPalestinians,00.html


U.S. officials maintained their firm support for Israel and squarely blamed Hamas.

Vice President Dick Cheney said Israel "didn't seek clearance or approval from us" before pushing into Gaza.

Sens. Harry Reid and Dick Durbin _ the top two Democrats in the chamber _ and Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell all described Israel's actions as understandable.

"I think what the Israelis are doing is very important," Reid said. "I think this terrorist organization, Hamas, has got to be put away. They've got to come to their senses."

[Roamy]

Hey all you guys that wish to live in the past ! Go read about the Trojan Horse and then look at your immigration practices. You guys better be getting some gold teeth and burkas for the future!!!

[steve_spackman]

Are you denying islam immigration to europe has turned into a huge problem for western world?

not at all.

[steve_spackman]

[quote="Eki"]Probably for the same reason why the Zionists can fire rockets on the Palestinians and the Palestinians can't fire rockets on the Zionists. That reason is the US:/quote]

well no suprise there..the US is a state sponsor of terror

[steve_spackman]

Anti-democracy? Hamas was democratically elected. Surrenderring to Israel would be anti-democratic and betraying their voters. I guess your definition of democracy is different than mine, because I don't consider very democratic forcing other people across the globe at gun point to become "democratic". I call it dictating and making the rules as you go, the US does a lot of dictating in the world and the Israeli does a lot of dictating in the Middle East.

very well said

[steve_spackman]

it all comes down to the fact that Israel and the US are a bunch of cowards..can only pick on people who cant stand up for themselves.

[steve_spackman]

VB you are right in a sense but if you break down the issue on the merits of what is happening now without dredging up a lot of rot about how rotten each side was to the other in the past lets examine it this way:


Israel awakes one morning to find out rockets are coming over the border and killing their civilians and destroying property. Gaza is the source. Gaza is sealed off because the government of the Palestinians (HAMAS) wont guarntee that this will stop. In fact, they are the ones doing the rocket attack. Hamas wont recognize Israel. Palestinians are upset there is an ecomonic embargo with Israel and they are cut off. Egypt wont trade with them either. Gaza is in a desparate spot.

They have two choices. Fight a war they cannot win or appeal to the world community and shame Egypt, Israel and the world into doing something. This takes time but it is the logical route out. Hamas says screw logic, lets start rocket attacks against Israel. Israel hammers back with maybe more force than they should but lets not split hairs here, they would much rather ignore Gaza than level it. The cost in arms, human life and world opinion doing it this way isn't great but at some point, talking to the idiots that are Hamas isn't getting them anywhere. It HASNT yet.

They dealt with Fatah for years and always were willing to do a deal if Arafat could give them some sort of guarntee of peace and negotiate the occupied territories from there. Heck, they pulled out of Gaza completely and now that is the Palestinian community that is giving them the most grief. So tell me WHY anyone in Israel wants any part of this mess with Gaza? They want this stopped and when the talking wasn't working, they sent in the military.

I don't like what is happening but it is VERY clear to anyone who just thinks honestly about this that the Israeli's are not in a position where they can accept taking 60 to 100 rockets a day and just pretend it doesn't matter. Those who don't want to understand that obviously have some sort of agenda that I figure is anti-Israel at the best and anti-Semitic at its worst.


Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic. But I’m not talking about World War II, Mahmoud Ahmedinijad, or Ashkenazi Jews. What I’m referring to is the holocaust we are all witnessing and responsible for in Gaza today and in Palestine over the last 60 years. By definition, a holocaust is a mass slaughter of people or a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life, especially through fire. There isn’t a more accurate description of the hell that US-armed and –funded Israeli Occupation Forces are unleashing on the people of Gaza at this moment. Since Arabs are Semites, US-Israeli policy doesn’t get more anti-Semitic than this
And that goes for Germany in Poland. In 1940, the Germans began massing Polish Jews into ghettoes prior to their deportation to extermination camps. The largest one was the Warsaw Ghetto, where an uprising—a Jewish insurgency—began in 1943. Today, Gaza is essentially a large ghetto, with a population of around 1.5 million living on about 139 square miles. Israel controls Gaza’s land border, airspace, water, maritime access, and the flow of goods including food and medical supplies. Since June 2007, Israel has imposed a blockade on the people of Gaza, slowly starving them to death, slowly killing them by denial of medical care amidst intermittent gunship airstrikes. These crimes against humanity are, of course, in violation of the Geneva Conventions—international law established after World War II in the spirit of “never again.” Unlike in Warsaw, Gaza is not the staging area for the extermination camps; Gaza IS the extermination camp.

Qassam rockets fired from Gaza as retaliation for Israeli F-16 airstrikes are the equivalent of the Molotov cocktails used by the resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943. Like the small arms of the Polish Jews, they are no match for the sophisticated weaponry of the invading army. This is why the death toll is so high for the people on the ground in Gaza, and minimal for Israelis. The mainstream media is depicting this as an “all-out war,” as it depicts the illegal occupation of Iraq. But in both cases, you have a starving, essentially unarmed people being assaulted with F-15s/F-16s, cruise missiles, depleted uranium, cluster bombs, tanks, and artillery. This is not war; this is mass murder; this is genocide. And it is American military, financial, and political support that makes this bloodletting possible.

From North America to Germany to Cambodia to Rwanda to Palestine to Iraq, mass murder is wrong. When Americans are looking for whom to blame, we cannot blame the victims. Yes, there are many players involved and many governments turning a blind eye to genocide, but don’t we brag about how much better we are than that? Shouldn’t we stop being complicit in these supreme crimes against humanity? All we have to do is abide by our own laws, which include all signed international treaties and agreements. We must end our illegal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan also stop funding and providing armaments for the illegal occupation and stealth of Palestinian land.

[donKey jote]

@fousto: Trojan Horse ? I guess you mean Poland, not the UK :laugh:

[Easy Drifter]

So Steve you are saying the creation of Israel by the United Nations was illegal?

[steve_spackman]

So Steve you are saying the creation of Israel by the United Nations was illegal?

whats caused this is the fact that land has been stolen from one person and given away to someone else....and im thinking that giving land to a group of people whos faith was born from a sacrificial cult is very bizzare

[Easy Drifter]

But it was the United Nations that did it. Right?
So then the UN was wrong then but right now?
Oh dear.

[BDunnell]

But it was the United Nations that did it. Right?
So then the UN was wrong then but right now?

What is wrong with that, may I ask? After all, governments all around the world now pursue very different policies to those of their predecessors from 60 years ago.

[yodasarmpit]

If this had been 40 years ago I would argue against Israels right to exist, but now that we have fourth and fifth generations born and brought up in Israel we have to accept their right to exist in a free and safe society.
What's past is past, however many in the Arab world fail to accept this fact, but at the same time Israel refuse to concede some of the stolen land and refuse to remove the sea and land blockades.

Both sides are as messed up as each other, both using religion as an excuse for their actions.
Whilst I strongly disagree with the modern state of Israel being created by displacing the local populous, I fear that Hamas's methods are wholly unjustified as is Israels heavy handed response.

Hamas have made a massive misjudgment, unless there aim was to turn the rest of the world against Israel with the understanding that Israel would commit mass murder in response. Israel are playing right into their hands.

I really wish I knew the answer to end the conflict, but that is way beyond my reasoning.

[Eki]

But it was the United Nations that did it. Right?
So then the UN was wrong then but right now?
Oh dear.
Everybody makes mistakes. To err is human.

Besides, in the 40s the UN was even more than now an exclusive club of good ol' boys who fought against the Axis Powers:

http://www.un.org/aboutun/history.htm

Finland wasn't allowed in until 1955, Japan in 1956 and Germany in 1973.

[TOgoFASTER]

A time line.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/palestin.htm

[Roamy]

what I can't understand is why can't you euros just deal with what is without all the freaking history that doesn't mean sh!t.

1. If you rocket Israel they will retaliate with brut force.
2. If you put brut force on Israel then we will come to the party and it could be the last party which is what the Islams want. Hell if you could guarantee me 77 Latinas I wouldn't even care if they were sluts - I 'd go. but you know we are too smart for that one. So all the time growing up they are telling you about the virgins now what do you expect these guys to do. A cave in Afghan or 77 virgins - seems pretty easy choice for me. And we are just helping them to their goal so why all the insults on us and Israel.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What I don't get is this desire to apportion blame on Israel like they have NO right to be there. The UN created this mess and while Eki you might whinge about how it was an "old boy's club" that is too damned bad. The nations that formed the UN were for the most part the winners of a global conflict that cost everyone a lot of money and lives, not to mention pain and suffering. If they couldn't make the call on what to do, who should? The UN laid out that the land known as Palestine was to be shared by the Jews and the Arabs. SHARED. 1947 comes along and the Jews come under attack by every nation in the area. EVERY ARAB nation! Yet the Jews won, and contrary to belief, they didn't have THAT much American support at that point. They hung on. They won. Last time I looked, when someone goes to war with you, you beat them, that should have some legitmacy. It is why Finland is still free last time I looked. So spare me this Israel doesn't deserve to exist. They have been there for 3 plus generations and they have defended their turf in every conflict, of which there has been plenty. So no matter what you think, Israel isn't going anywhere.

Now we can argue that Israel is overreacting or not but unlike Mr. Spackman, I recognize that the terrorists that are Hamas started this latest issue in Gaza with their incessant rocket attacks. Oh yes...last time I looked 513 deaths since Dec. 27 is a tragedy but hardly Genocide. There are close to a Million people living in Gaza. If Hamas really had their best care and welfare in mind, instead of buying rockets they could have been building schools, hospitals and industry. Like Arafat, they choose to fight a battle they cant win.

[steve_spackman]

what I can't understand is why can't you euros just deal with what is without all the freaking history that doesn't mean sh!t.

1. If you rocket Israel they will retaliate with brut force.
2. If you put brut force on Israel then we will come to the party and it could be the last party which is what the Islams want. Hell if you could guarantee me 77 Latinas I wouldn't even care if they were sluts - I 'd go. but you know we are too smart for that one. So all the time growing up they are telling you about the virgins now what do you expect these guys to do. A cave in Afghan or 77 virgins - seems pretty easy choice for me. And we are just helping them to their goal so why all the insults on us and Israel.

all i can do is laugh at your ignorance....

[steve_spackman]

What I don't get is this desire to apportion blame on Israel like they have NO right to be there. The UN created this mess and while Eki you might whinge about how it was an "old boy's club" that is too damned bad. The nations that formed the UN were for the most part the winners of a global conflict that cost everyone a lot of money and lives, not to mention pain and suffering. If they couldn't make the call on what to do, who should? The UN laid out that the land known as Palestine was to be shared by the Jews and the Arabs. SHARED. 1947 comes along and the Jews come under attack by every nation in the area. EVERY ARAB nation! Yet the Jews won, and contrary to belief, they didn't have THAT much American support at that point. They hung on. They won. Last time I looked, when someone goes to war with you, you beat them, that should have some legitmacy. It is why Finland is still free last time I looked. So spare me this Israel doesn't deserve to exist. They have been there for 3 plus generations and they have defended their turf in every conflict, of which there has been plenty. So no matter what you think, Israel isn't going anywhere.

Now we can argue that Israel is overreacting or not but unlike Mr. Spackman, I recognize that the terrorists that are Hamas started this latest issue in Gaza with their incessant rocket attacks. Oh yes...last time I looked 513 deaths since Dec. 27 is a tragedy but hardly Genocide. There are close to a Million people living in Gaza. If Hamas really had their best care and welfare in mind, instead of buying rockets they could have been building schools, hospitals and industry. Like Arafat, they choose to fight a battle they cant win.

i did not set blame on anyone for these most recent attacks..i do not care who started this one. I am looking more into why this has happened. And how did this happen??? as i said before....

whats caused this is the fact that land has been stolen from one person and given away to someone else....and im thinking that giving land to a group of people whos faith was born from a sacrificial cult is very bizzare

Israel is practicing ethnic cleansing. It is settling militant groups in Gaza, blockading the ports so not even food or medical supplies can reach the Palestinians, uprooting whole orchards with bulldozers, and yet the government expects no resistance. Even the Jews in Ghetto provided armed resistance to the Nazi and did not meekly go to their deaths. Just like the war from 1848-50 when the US government seized half of Mexico's land by force and turned it over to US settlers. In this context there is a valid comparison to be made with Palestine and the seizure of their lands and murder of their people by the Israeli military so it can be turned over to white Jews. This is really a question of race and violence against an entire population under a pretext of security much like the USA in invading Afghanistan and Iraq after bombing them to rubble. The Israeli people by their daily actions are clearly demonstrating their belief that the Palestinian people have no right to live peacefully in their own country. Also in 2007 there were 275 official deaths of Palestinians (many of which were children) by the Israelis military and the equally militant Israeli "settlers" while there were 4 deaths of Israelis at the hands of the Palestinians who are trying to defend their right to live in their own country

[Mark]

whats caused this is the fact that land has been stolen from one person and given away to someone else....and im thinking that giving land to a group of people whos faith was born from a sacrificial cult is very bizzare


The Americans stole their land from that native Indians. England is mostly land stolen from the Britons. How far back to you wish to go?

[Hondo]

On the flip side, there may only be signifigant numbers of Palestinians still breathing because of US aid to Israel. The aid provided by the US may be the carrot by which Israel is lured back into moderation.

If Israel wasn't getting aid from the US, they'd be getting it from someone else. Israel has developed many of it's own weapon systems and if the US didn't supply them with the balance, France, the UK, Germany, and Russia would be glad to fill their shopping lists.

Much is being made of Israel using US F-16 fighter bombers but I think they would be just as successful using aircraft from other nationalities, including Russian aircraft. Israeli success stems from superior training, tactics, command and control networks, and most of all, the motivation of the individual soldier. Were it not for the US aid carrot, possibly Lebanon would be part of Israel today.

The mighty combined Arab armies encourged the Palestinians to refugee in the first place while the Arabs wiped Israel off of the map. Well, the mighty Arab armies got a mudhole stomped in their a$$ instead and a bunch of Palestinians in refugee camps asking "Are they wiped out yet? Can we go home now?".

The Arabs themselves don't care for the Palestinians either. Although the number of actual, original refugees, is probably very small now, their presence remains an embarassment to the Arabs and a reminder of their own ineptitude in the deployment and use of combat arms. They are useful only to the extent that they remain a thorn in Israel's side. Instead of bombing Israel, the Palestinians ought to be bombing the Arabs until they keep their promise to return them to their homeland. I doubt many Arab soldiers are willing to risk their lives to return people they don't like, to real estate the Arabs won't own.

The Arab armies are quite frankly, a sad joke. During the Iraq-Iran war, Iraq had US support also. They didn't win. The Iranians had up-to-date US weapon systems but in their revolutionary zeal, they had already executed most of the people that knew how to maintain and use them. The bozos in both countries finally called it a day after it came down to sending mass waves of children with explosives at each other. Of course, both sides claimed victory. When Iraq invaded Kuwait and their army left town, Kuwait and the Saudis (before their army had to leave town) asked for, and got US aid along with International forces. The vaunted Iraqi army had soldiers surrendering to news reporters. South Viet Nam had all kinds of US aid and still lost.

Point being, US aid doesn't mean you'll be victorious. You still have to have the ability to train and use your resources wisely. In this, Israel has done well.

As long as there are people that refuse to believe Israel has a right to exist and are willing to squander the lives of their of their followers to that end, there will be no peace with Israel in the Middle East. It will remain a fight to the death.

Take this to the bank, If Israel were to vanish from the face of the earth tonight, you still won't have peace in the Middle East. The Arabs will just go back to whupping on each other and the thugs using Islam to legitimize their rampages will continue to do so against the remaing Arab governments.

[Eki]

The nations that formed the UN were for the most part the winners of a global conflict that cost everyone a lot of money and lives, not to mention pain and suffering. If they couldn't make the call on what to do, who should?
Everybody. Together. Like equals. You know, like in a democracy.

[BDunnell]

Everybody. Together. Like equals. You know, like in a democracy.

You know full well that that was impossible, not least thanks to the intransigence of the Soviets. Agreement with them post-WW2 was impossible, as proved in four-power Berlin where the Western Allies were reasonable towards them and still got nowhere - too reasonable, in fact.

[chuck34]

Lets review recent history once again. Israel and Hammas had a cease fire agreement. Even before that ended Hammas was lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel was willing to look the other way for a while in hopes of brokering a longer cease fire. Then when the original cease fire ended, a new one was not reached, and the rocket attacks stepped up, Israel defended themselves.

To me that sounds like Israel was more than willing to make peace with Hammas, until Hammas proved beyond doubt that they were not willing to make peace.

Sure Israel has done some crap in the past and they have been and should be called out for it. But this time I'm pretty sure Israel is on the right side of things.

This board is proof why Israel must be strong in their defence. There are a lot of people/groups/countries that do not think they have the right to exist. Until their right to exist is recognized then they will be constantly in danger.

[chuck34]

Oh yeah, also, why is it that every time Israel gives up land for peace that they do not get any peace. Hmm makes you think..... Maybe they should just re-lay claim to what they took back in '67. What percentage of land must they give up before they get peace? According to Hammas, 100%. Does that sound reasonable to anyone? (on this board I'm sure there are a few, like Steve, who still want to blame Jews for all ills in the world)

[Roamy]

i did not set blame on anyone for these most recent attacks..i do not care who started this one. I am looking more into why this has happened. And how did this happen??? as i said before....

whats caused this is the fact that land has been stolen from one person and given away to someone else....and im thinking that giving land to a group of people whos faith was born from a sacrificial cult is very bizzare

Israel is practicing ethnic cleansing. It is settling militant groups in Gaza, blockading the ports so not even food or medical supplies can reach the Palestinians, uprooting whole orchards with bulldozers, and yet the government expects no resistance. Even the Jews in Ghetto provided armed resistance to the Nazi and did not meekly go to their deaths. Just like the war from 1848-50 when the US government seized half of Mexico's land by force and turned it over to US settlers. In this context there is a valid comparison to be made with Palestine and the seizure of their lands and murder of their people by the Israeli military so it can be turned over to white Jews. This is really a question of race and violence against an entire population under a pretext of security much like the USA in invading Afghanistan and Iraq after bombing them to rubble. The Israeli people by their daily actions are clearly demonstrating their belief that the Palestinian people have no right to live peacefully in their own country. Also in 2007 there were 275 official deaths of Palestinians (many of which were children) by the Israelis military and the equally militant Israeli "settlers" while there were 4 deaths of Israelis at the hands of the Palestinians who are trying to defend their right to live in their own country

Hey Spac
maybe the following will help you sort it out:

Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide .. Let's see now...
No Jesus
No Christmas
No television
No cheerleaders

No nude women
No car races
No football
No soccer
No golf
No tailgate parties
No K-Mart
No Bunnings
No pork BBQ
No hot dogs
No burgers
No chocolate chip cookies
No lobster
No shellfish, or even frozen fish sticks
No nachos
No beer nuts
No Beer !!!!!!!!


Rags for clothes and towels for hats.
Constant wailing from the guy next-door because he's sick and there are no doctors.
Constant wailing from the guy in the tower.
More than one wife.
You can't shave.
Your wives can't shave.
You can't shower to wash off the smell of donkey cooked over burning camel dung.
The women have to wear baggy dresses and veils at all times.
Your bride is picked by someone else.
She smells just like your donkey.
But your donkey has a better disposition.
Then they tell you that when you die it all gets better!

I mean, really, is there a mystery

[Roamy]

Oh yeah, also, why is it that every time Israel gives up land for peace that they do not get any peace. Hmm makes you think..... Maybe they should just re-lay claim to what they took back in '67. What percentage of land must they give up before they get peace? According to Hammas, 100%. Does that sound reasonable to anyone? (on this board I'm sure there are a few, like Steve, who still want to blame Jews for all ills in the world)

yes it would probably be easier to relocate all the Pales - Like to Iran and Syria. Take that to the UN

[steve_spackman]

Hey Spac
maybe the following will help you sort it out:

Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide .. Let's see now...
No Jesus
No Christmas
No television
No cheerleaders

No nude women
No car races
No football
No soccer
No golf
No tailgate parties
No K-Mart
No Bunnings
No pork BBQ
No hot dogs
No burgers
No chocolate chip cookies
No lobster
No shellfish, or even frozen fish sticks
No nachos
No beer nuts
No Beer !!!!!!!!


Rags for clothes and towels for hats.
Constant wailing from the guy next-door because he's sick and there are no doctors.
Constant wailing from the guy in the tower.
More than one wife.
You can't shave.
Your wives can't shave.
You can't shower to wash off the smell of donkey cooked over burning camel dung.
The women have to wear baggy dresses and veils at all times.
Your bride is picked by someone else.
She smells just like your donkey.
But your donkey has a better disposition.
Then they tell you that when you die it all gets better!

I mean, really, is there a mystery

i think you mean football...no such thing as soccer..

[steve_spackman]

yes it would probably be easier to relocate all the Pales - Like to Iran and Syria. Take that to the UN

from what i can tell...you seem to believe everything your media and government tells you....shame.

[TOgoFASTER]

you are a very narrow minded, shallow ignorant person from what i can tell...you seem to believe everything your media and government tells you....shame.

His choice of media feed and only those in government that hold the same thought processes. A group of about 25% (at best) trying to hold on to something that never existed in reality. While trying hard to pass off as speaking for a nation.

[chuck34]

from what i can tell...you seem to believe everything your media and government tells you....shame.

you are a very narrow minded, shallow ignorant person from what I can tell... you seem not to believe anything your media and government tells you... shame.

I know I shouldn't bring myself down to your level, but I just can't help myself.

Beleiving that any of this is "black and white" is narrowsighted. I don't think that any thinking person would suggest that the Israelies have been blameless for all time, and yet you seem to ignore that Pali's guilt in this instance?????

[Easy Drifter]

Chuck34: You have no business on this thread. You make far too much sense.

[Hondo]

Actually, Hamas took a dump on Gaza. Things were beginning to smooth out somewhat before they took power.

[Eki]

Israeli artillery hit a UN run school in Gaza. At least 30 died, including children:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm


At least 30 people were killed and 55 injured when Israeli artillery shells landed outside a United Nations-run school in Gaza, UN officials have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp was hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hey Spac
maybe the following will help you sort it out:

Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim terrorists are so quick to commit suicide .. Let's see now...
No Jesus
No Christmas
No television
No cheerleaders

No nude women
No car races
No football
No soccer
No golf
No tailgate parties
No K-Mart
No Bunnings
No pork BBQ
No hot dogs
No burgers
No chocolate chip cookies
No lobster
No shellfish, or even frozen fish sticks
No nachos
No beer nuts
No Beer !!!!!!!!


Rags for clothes and towels for hats.
Constant wailing from the guy next-door because he's sick and there are no doctors.
Constant wailing from the guy in the tower.
More than one wife.
You can't shave.
Your wives can't shave.
You can't shower to wash off the smell of donkey cooked over burning camel dung.
The women have to wear baggy dresses and veils at all times.
Your bride is picked by someone else.
She smells just like your donkey.
But your donkey has a better disposition.
Then they tell you that when you die it all gets better!

I mean, really, is there a mystery
Fousto...the logic of all of this is more logical than Spackman's and Eki's blind refusal to admit that Hamas has to carry the can on this mess..

[Hondo]

Israeli artillery hit a UN run school in Gaza. At least 30 died, including children:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

Artillery will do that when it is fired at Hamas fighters, firing from schools. If you could convince your Hamas buddies to fight out away from civilian areas, I think you'll see a dramatic drop in civilian casulties.

[Eki]

Artillery will do that when it is fired at Hamas fighters, firing from schools. If you could convince your Hamas buddies to fight out away from civilian areas, I think you'll see a dramatic drop in civilian casulties.
UN didn't say there were Hamas fighters in that school, just that the Israeli artillery shelled it and killed at least 30, including many children. Even if there were Hamas fighters, which there probably weren't, nothing forced the Israeli to strike just like that. I don't think that even American police would solve a hostage situation by killing everybody, including the hostages.

If you could convince your Zionist buddies to move away from Gaza and outside the range of their rockets, the rockets wouldn't be a problem.

[jim mcglinchey]

[quote="Fiero 5.7"]Artillery will do that when it is fired at Hamas fighters, firing from schools.

Sure everything the Israelis hit was a rocket launch site, thats the standard reponse by their arrogant, unapologetic bastrad spokespeople, isnt it! Wonder how they killed three of their own guys today then?

[Eki]

Wonder how they killed three of their own guys today then?
They were too near the Hamas fighters who were just about to launch a rocket, of course.

[Easy Drifter]

For Allah's sake Eki wake up and smell the roses. Hamas rockets are now landing many miles into Israeli Territory. Israel leaves that area (not likely) and Hamas will then strike further and further into Israel as they take over former Israeli territory.
Hamas have stated over and over that they will accept nothing less than all of Israel. As far as Hamas are concerned Israel and the Israeli people have no right to exist.
Shielding military positions behind and in schools, hospitals and Mosques and using civilians as shields is standard Hamas extremists' practice. Hamas probaly care less for the general Palestinean population than Israel does. Are the Israelis to stand there and get shot while Hamas fire from behind civilians? Why do I ask? You would probably say yes.
Exactly the same tactics are used by the Taliban terrorists of whom few are now Afghanis but mostly Islamic mercenaries. The brave men who throw acid into the faces of schoolchildren.
Oh I almost forgot you support not only the Taliban but the Somali pirates too.

[chuck34]

UN didn't say there were Hamas fighters in that school, just that the Israeli artillery shelled it and killed at least 30, including many children. Even if there were Hamas fighters, which there probably weren't, nothing forced the Israeli to strike just like that. I don't think that even American police would solve a hostage situation by killing everybody, including the hostages.

If you could convince your Zionist buddies to move away from Gaza and outside the range of their rockets, the rockets wouldn't be a problem.

Eki, that philosophy is called "Land for Peace". And it is a miserable failure. Israel has said many times in the past something to the effect of, "We'll give you this land, or that land, just leave us in peace". That works for 6 months (maybe) then the rockets are moved to where the Israelies are again within range, and BLAMMO, the whole thing starts all over again.

Where does it stop? I guess if I listen to you and Steve and the like, that would be when Israel is no longer in existance. And for some reason I don't see that happening.

The only option left to Israel is probably to blast Hamas down enough so that they are no longer a threat (at least for the time being). Then petition the UN to actually monitor Gaza and the West Bank to make sure they don't get any more rockets to fire at INNOCENT CIVILIANS in Israel.

LAND FOR PEACE HAS PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN NOT TO WORK.

[chuck34]

Chuck34: You have no business on this thread. You make far too much sense.

Thanks Easy, sometimes I wonder who the sane people are

[Eki]

Oh I almost forgot you support not only the Taliban but the Somali pirates too.
No, I don't support Somali pirates, they are criminals any way you slice it. And I don't support the Taliban, but I don't mind if many of the Afghans do, it's up to them. Just like supporting the Republicans would be just up to the Americans, if they kept their business inside their own country.

[Daniel]

Oh I almost forgot you support not only the Taliban but the Somali pirates too.

Up until I read that I was wondering whether you were a fool. Well wonder no more......

[Easy Drifter]

Daniel: I am glad you agree I am brilliant. :heart: :angel: :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

Daniel: I am glad you agree I am brilliant. :heart: :angel: :rotflmao:

I'm sorry but your "if you're not with us you're against us" attitude deserves to be pointed out and made fun of. It's the very same attitude the Israeli govt and Hamas have. Both sides need to grow up and realise that the other side will always be there no matter what and deal with it. You should also grow up and stop accusing people of supporting terrorist organisations and pirates. That just makes you look like a fool.

[BDunnell]

The only option left to Israel is probably to blast Hamas down enough so that they are no longer a threat (at least for the time being).

For one thing, this isn't going to work. For another, it is far from 'the only option'. A ceasefire and negotiation is another, as proved in Northern Ireland — I cannot stress this enough, nor the fact that the conflict there was funded in part by the USA for many years. I cannot think of an example of a terrorist group being forced out of existence by military action alone. Hamas is not about to disappear, just as Israel isn't about to disappear. Both notions need to be banished from all thoughts if progress is to be made. And I am convinced that some commenting on this thread would view Israel's response as reasonable and proportionate no matter what the truth of the matter was.

[steve_spackman]

Fousto...the logic of all of this is more logical than Spackman's and Eki's blind refusal to admit that Hamas has to carry the can on this mess..

i have not refused the idea that Hamas is to blame either..as i have said a fair few times, they are both as bad as eachother..you need to read my posts a bit more closely to figure that out. I am not a supporter of either side...im more into the innocent people that get caught in the crossfire and the way that Israel thinks that they are blameless and think they are above the law and the whole reason why this conflict is on going.

[Roamy]

you are a very narrow minded, shallow ignorant person from what i can tell...you seem to believe everything your media and government tells you....shame.

hey thumb dick I wouldn't be calling me these things I just may have to come over there and unscrew your head and sh!t in your neck !!! :eek: :eek: :p

[steve_spackman]

hey thumb dick I wouldn't be calling me these things I just may have to come over there and unscrew your head and sh!t in your neck !!! :eek: :eek: :p

now now less of that please little boy..why get like that?? you taking it way too far

[chuck34]

i have not refused the idea that Hamas is to blame either..as i have said a fair few times, they are both as bad as eachother..you need to read my posts a bit more closely to figure that out. I am not a supporter of either side...im more into the innocent people that get caught in the crossfire and the way that Israel thinks that they are blameless and think they are above the law and the whole reason why this conflict is on going.

But can you see where we are all confused can't you. You say that Judism is based on superstitions and lies, and that therefore the Jewish state of Israel is invalid (or at least implied such). You have not condimed Hamas as far as I have see. If I am incorrect, please post a link.

I don't think that Israel thinks that they are blameless or that they are above the law. I saw Israeli's broken up at the loss of life. They don't feel that they have any other choice at this point.

I take it from the flag that you have that you are English, so I base the following on that. If I am wrong, please forgive me.

But what if the Scots started lobbing rockets into London? What if after that you said, fine have Scotland back, but leave us alone. You signed a treaty and all was well.

That is until the Welsh started thinking, hey those d@mn Scots got THEIR indipendence, what about us? So they started lobbing rockets at London.

WHAT THEN???????



England is certainly not blameless in this situation, are they?????????


YOUR hipocrocy is beyond me.

[chuck34]

For one thing, this isn't going to work. For another, it is far from 'the only option'. A ceasefire and negotiation is another, as proved in Northern Ireland — I cannot stress this enough, nor the fact that the conflict there was funded in part by the USA for many years. I cannot think of an example of a terrorist group being forced out of existence by military action alone. Hamas is not about to disappear, just as Israel isn't about to disappear. Both notions need to be banished from all thoughts if progress is to be made. And I am convinced that some commenting on this thread would view Israel's response as reasonable and proportionate no matter what the truth of the matter was.

But a more recent example would be Israel and Hezbolah. Haven't heard much out of them since they got their @sses kicked in 2006. Oh yeah, according to "The Media" they won that war. (Thought we weren't supposed to trust them.... HMMMMMMMM????????)

[steve_spackman]

But can you see where we are all confused can't you. You say that Judism is based on superstitions and lies, and that therefore the Jewish state of Israel is invalid (or at least implied such). You have not condimed Hamas as far as I have see. If I am incorrect, please post a link.

I don't think that Israel thinks that they are blameless or that they are above the law. I saw Israeli's broken up at the loss of life. They don't feel that they have any other choice at this point.

I take it from the flag that you have that you are English, so I base the following on that. If I am wrong, please forgive me.

But what if the Scots started lobbing rockets into London? What if after that you said, fine have Scotland back, but leave us alone. You signed a treaty and all was well.

That is until the Welsh started thinking, hey those d@mn Scots got THEIR indipendence, what about us? So they started lobbing rockets at London.

WHAT THEN???????



England is certainly not blameless in this situation, are they?????????


YOUR hipocrocy is beyond me.

well for your information, i am very well in the know that the brits are to blame for this aswell
i have not refused the idea that Hamas is to blame either..as i have said a fair few times, they are both as bad as eachother..you need to read my posts a bit more closely to figure that out. I am not a supporter of either side...im more into the innocent people that get caught in the crossfire and the way that Israel thinks that they are blameless and think they are above the law and the whole reason why this conflict is on going.

[steve_spackman]

hey thumb dick I wouldn't be calling me these things I just may have to come over there and unscrew your head and sh!t in your neck !!! :eek: :eek: :p

to be honest you really dont have that far to go...well a few hundred miles maybe....

[chuck34]

well for your information, i am very well in the know that the brits are to blame for this aswell
i have not refused the idea that Hamas is to blame either..as i have said a fair few times, they are both as bad as eachother..you need to read my posts a bit more closely to figure that out. I am not a supporter of either side...im more into the innocent people that get caught in the crossfire and the way that Israel thinks that they are blameless and think they are above the law and the whole reason why this conflict is on going.

Please show me one link where you have said that Hamas is to blame, I must be mistaken. I have read where you said that Judism is based on lies and misticism. I guess I read that wrong. Please show me the error of my ways?????

And as for your INNOCENT people that have allowed Hamas to exist within their "country"..... I just think that if a terrorist group existed close to my children, were firing rockets close to my children, were murdering people close to my children, I just might say something to the people that these OTHER people were doing bad thing to like "Hey, I don't agreee with this. Hey, I think this is wrong. Hey, these people are wrong. Hey, these people are doing bad sh!it. Hey, can I come and live with you in peace".

But then again that's just me. And I have the best interest of my INNOCENT CHILDREN at heart. So I must not have anything in common with the INNOCENT Pali population right???????

[chuck34]

well for your information, i am very well in the know that the brits are to blame for this aswell
i have not refused the idea that Hamas is to blame either..as i have said a fair few times, they are both as bad as eachother..you need to read my posts a bit more closely to figure that out. I am not a supporter of either side...im more into the innocent people that get caught in the crossfire and the way that Israel thinks that they are blameless and think they are above the law and the whole reason why this conflict is on going.

The question still stands...

What would you do if the Welsh were lobbing rockets at London???????

[steve_spackman]

The question still stands...

What would you do if the Welsh were lobbing rockets at London???????

if you mean lobbing sheep at london..thats ok with me..i love lamb so plenty to go around ha ha.

[steve_spackman]

Please show me one link where you have said that Hamas is to blame, I must be mistaken. I have read where you said that Judism is based on lies and misticism. I guess I read that wrong. Please show me the error of my ways?????

And as for your INNOCENT people that have allowed Hamas to exist within their "country"..... I just think that if a terrorist group existed close to my children, were firing rockets close to my children, were murdering people close to my children, I just might say something to the people that these OTHER people were doing bad thing to like "Hey, I don't agreee with this. Hey, I think this is wrong. Hey, these people are wrong. Hey, these people are doing bad sh!it. Hey, can I come and live with you in peace".

But then again that's just me. And I have the best interest of my INNOCENT CHILDREN at heart. So I must not have anything in common with the INNOCENT Pali population right???????

Both sides have innocent people who have been caught up in the conflict..

AS i have stated, i have said in a few posts that they are as bad as eachother...surely thats enough for you. I have a few friends who are 'JEWISH' and they actually respect my views..something i think you should respect too.

[chuck34]

Both sides have innocent people who have been caught up in the conflict..

AS i have stated, i have said in a few posts that they are as bad as eachother...surely thats enough for you. I have a few friends who are 'JEWISH' and they actually respect my views..something i think you should respect too.

I would respect your views if I had seen anything that supported what you just said.

Sorry, I don't know how to quote more than once (or maybe it's too late), but I seem to remember you saying that Judisim is based on lies and mystisim. Do you deny saying this??? If so, please provide a link or explanation, and I will tell you I am wrong. If not then my point stands.

If you are ginuine (and I suspect not) about Israel and Hamas being as bad as each other then fine. But I have not seen that in your posts.

And I surely don't see that in the current situation. There was a clear cease fire signed by both sides that one side violated and the other took action against. I don't see this as a bad thing.

I'm sure you say that Israel violated first with their bombing a few days ago right???? Believing YOUR "media" again I suppose?????

[chuck34]

if you mean lobbing sheep at london..thats ok with me..i love lamb so plenty to go around ha ha.

What in the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks are you talking about?????


You know d@mn well what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!!

Avoid questions MUCH??????????


Answer the D@MN question. WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF THE WELSH WERE BOMBING LONDONG????????

It is really a simple question, what do you have against answering it???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

[steve_spackman]

What in the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks are you talking about?????

so you dont get the joke then?

[steve_spackman]

What in the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks are you talking about?????


You know d@mn well what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!!

Avoid questions MUCH??????????


Answer the D@MN question. WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF THE WELSH WERE BOMBING LONDONG????????

It is really a simple question, what do you have against answering it???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

calm down dont have a heart attack mate...if you give me a sec i will answer your question

welsh bomb london...well please tell me why on earth they would do that for? they dont have traits like the IRA did back in the troubles

now the IRA did what they did as we brits would not give them back the north..so in a way they did what Hamas are doing to Israel.
But then a large portion of the north wanted to remain loyal to the crown...

and yes ALOT of innocent people died then too..

[chuck34]

so you dont get the joke then?

Still avoiding the question then????

[chuck34]

calm down dont have a heart attack mate...if you give me a sec i will answer your question

welsh bomb london...well please tell me why on earth they would do that for? they dont have traits like the IRA did back in the troubles

True, but they do have just as much of a claim to soverinty (sorry I can't spell) as the Pali's do. Right? Or do you deny that they were in Wales before the English???

[steve_spackman]

True, but they do have just as much of a claim to soverinty (sorry I can't spell) as the Pali's do. Right? Or do you deny that they were in Wales before the English???

well wales is a country that is part of the UK. They have a welsh assembly and speak..welsh and english as brits were in wales from 400bc as british refugees from the saxon invaders

[steve_spackman]

I'm sure you say that Israel violated first with their bombing a few days ago right????[/quote]

not at all..

Believing YOUR "media" again I suppose?????[/quote]

so where do you get your news from?

[Roamy]

if you mean lobbing sheep at london..thats ok with me..i love lamb so plenty to go around ha ha.


Yea I hear all the sheep run when you show up

[chuck34]

well wales is a country that is part of the UK. They have a welsh assembly and speak..welsh and english as brits were in wales from 400bc as british refugees from the saxon invaders

Ah, so I am mistaken then. Wales is their own independent country now. Huh, guess my public school upbringing has been wrong all along.

Oh so it's all the Saxon's faults. I guess GWB is a Saxon then :-) So I, as an American, no longer have to claim him??????

[Easy Drifter]

chuck34: Getting a straight answer from steve, Eki, tomi or Daniel seems to be impossible. Direct questions are ignored or result in ducking and weaving. Believe me I have tried to get direct answers.
They do not like humour being thrown at them either, although there really is nothing funny about this mess.
I am siding Israel but have said in previous posts that Israel is not blameless.
They won't accept that.
Denial of what they said in previous posts or in other threads is also common.
I am going to quit trying to reason with them as it seems to be hopeless.
Mind you if they attack me over this post I will be back into it

[steve_spackman]

chuck34: Getting a straight answer from steve, Eki, tomi or Daniel seems to be impossible. Direct questions are ignored or result in ducking and weaving. Believe me I have tried to get direct answers.
They do not like humour being thrown at them either, although there really is nothing funny about this mess.
I am siding Israel but have said in previous posts that Israel is not blameless.
They won't accept that.
Denial of what they said in previous posts or in other threads is also common.
I am going to quit trying to reason with them as it seems to be hopeless.
Mind you if they attack me over this post I will be back into it

i love it when people throw humour at me...

you have your views..thats really amazing mate im very happy for you..i have my views too..it all comes down to respecting eachother no matter what our views are...

also nowt wrong with a bit of debate..its healthy.

[chuck34]

chuck34: Getting a straight answer from steve, Eki, tomi or Daniel seems to be impossible. Direct questions are ignored or result in ducking and weaving. Believe me I have tried to get direct answers.
They do not like humour being thrown at them either, although there really is nothing funny about this mess.
I am siding Israel but have said in previous posts that Israel is not blameless.
They won't accept that.
Denial of what they said in previous posts or in other threads is also common.
I am going to quit trying to reason with them as it seems to be hopeless.
Mind you if they attack me over this post I will be back into it

I get the same feeling that they will not except my (or your) assertion that Israel is not blameless. I know that they will not excep that. They believe that Hamas is blameless, "just trying to live in peace, as the Koran has taught them". And that Israel is the agressor. I would suggest that Israel has been the agressor in the past, but it is pretty clear that Hamas is the one who broke this cease fire to any thinking person.

Plus I have still not gotten any confrimation that Israel has the right to exist. And in truth that is all that I (and probably Israel and even the UN) is looking for.

Just confirm for me that Israel has the right to exist, and I go away.

[steve_spackman]

Ah, so I am mistaken then. Wales is their own independent country now. Huh, guess my public school upbringing has been wrong all along.

Oh so it's all the Saxon's faults. I guess GWB is a Saxon then :-) So I, as an American, no longer have to claim him??????

did i say its the saxons fault...i dont think i did..

wales is not a independent country..yes they have a welsh assembly, but then all other issues are from from london. just is the case with scotland and the little bit of land thats north of the republic of ireland

[chuck34]

i love it when people throw humour at me...

you have your views..thats really amazing mate im very happy for you..i have my views too..it all comes down to respecting eachother no matter what our views are...

also nowt wrong with a bit of debate..its healthy.

Exactly debate is healthy. Debate with rockets, that's another question???

[chuck34]

did i say its the saxons fault...i dont think i did..

wales is not a independent country..yes they have a welsh assembly, but then all other issues are from from london. just is the case with scotland and the little bit of land thats north of the republic of ireland

So sort of like Gaza was before they started lobbing rockes into Israel???

Please show me how I am wrong, I really do enjoy how I am wrong.

[steve_spackman]

I get the same feeling that they will not except my (or your) assertion that Israel is not blameless. I know that they will not excep that. They believe that Hamas is blameless, "just trying to live in peace, as the Koran has taught them". And that Israel is the agressor. I would suggest that Israel has been the agressor in the past, but it is pretty clear that Hamas is the one who broke this cease fire to any thinking person.

Plus I have still not gotten any confrimation that Israel has the right to exist. And in truth that is all that I (and probably Israel and even the UN) is looking for.

Just confirm for me that Israel has the right to exist, and I go away.

did i say Hamas is blameless???? you need to go read up on your history about the conflict starting with the year 597-538bc

[TOgoFASTER]

LOL

[chuck34]

They have a welsh assembly and speak..welsh and english as brits were in wales from 400bc as british refugees from the saxon invaders

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You didn't say that it was the saxon's fault, just implied. Sorry for being able to read between the lines.

You are implying that if the saxons had not invaded England then the English would have never taken over Wales. Are you not??????

[steve_spackman]

So sort of like Gaza was before they started lobbing rockes into Israel???

er explain

[chuck34]

did i say Hamas is blameless???? you need to go read up on your history about the conflict starting with the year 597-538bc

When have you said that Hamas is NOT blameless???? I have said many times, in this thread that Israel is not blameless. Name one time that you have said the same???

So history started in 598BC????? That is news to me, and I'm guessing news to the Israelis.

[steve_spackman]

They have a welsh assembly and speak..welsh and english as brits were in wales from 400bc as british refugees from the saxon invaders

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You didn't say that it was the saxon's fault, just implied. Sorry for being able to read between the lines.

You are implying that if the saxons had not invaded England then the English would have never taken over Wales. Are you not??????

Well thats a yes and a no...i would get in my time machine and see what would of happened but its in for repairs

[Easy Drifter]

So much for staying out of it.
Some, note some, do not appear to be even willing to admit that Israel as an independant Nation was created by the United Nations, or if they do admit it indicate they believe the UN was wrong then.

[chuck34]

er explain

They (Gaza) had it's own government, "democratically" elected (Hamas).

Seriously, do I have to explain everything??????

[chuck34]

Well thats a yes and a no...i would get in my time machine and see what would of happened but its in for repairs

Nice dodge. But I think that we all know that sooner or later the English would have taken over Wales as well as Scotland. To believe otherwise is foolish.

But you still haven't answered my question.

Does Israel have the right to be it's own independent country??????

That is a simple enough question, just answer it.

[steve_spackman]

When have you said that Hamas is NOT blameless???? I have said many times, in this thread that Israel is not blameless. Name one time that you have said the same???

So history started in 598BC????? That is news to me, and I'm guessing news to the Israelis.

jewish people

a people claiming decent from the ancient Israelites, of the old testament or who practise judaism. This was during the exile from the land of Israel (597-538bc) folowing the babylonian conquest, where the religion developed from a sacrificial temple cult into a elaborate code for daily living, which actually became the basis for communal identity.

[steve_spackman]

Nice dodge. But I think that we all know that sooner or later the English would have taken over Wales as well as Scotland. To believe otherwise is foolish.

But you still haven't answered my question.

Does Israel have the right to be it's own independent country??????

That is a simple enough question, just answer it.

i think i just did

[steve_spackman]

They (Gaza) had it's own government, "democratically" elected (Hamas).

Seriously, do I have to explain everything??????

you are correct yes...

[chuck34]

jewish people

a people claiming decent from the ancient Israelites, of the old testament or who practise judaism. This was during the exile from the land of Israel (597-538bc) folowing the babylonian conquest, where the religion developed from a sacrificial temple cult into a elaborate code for daily living, which actually became the basis for communal identity.

Ah, so your whole basis for your argument is that the Jewish religion is based on a "sacrifical emple cult"???????

This is different from Islamicisim how??????????

Just wondering what you are basing your world view on. Conquest, or religion? Seems to me, "your side" looses on both points. But maybe I'm missing something.

[chuck34]

i think i just did

So let me get this correct.

Your position is that Israel has no right to exist???????

[chuck34]

you are correct yes...

Correct about what????

Sorry, I'm slow, but you seem to change your position so often that I struggle to keep up.

[steve_spackman]

So let me get this correct.

Your position is that Israel has no right to exist???????

let me go form myself a cult..then turn it into a religion and ask the UN to give me a plot of land somewhere...

i am not against anyone who is jewish..as i said i have ffriends who are jews and they respect my views..you should too....AS THEY ARE MY VIEWS, just like i respect your views

i dont care for Hamas or Israel..both as bad as eachother from my standing. its the poor innocent people on both sides who i care about....

but we cant ignore the reasons why this conflict is all about..thats the issue at hand at the end of the day

i just dont see why a people who formed a religion from a cult should be abe to take someone elses plot of land...

[steve_spackman]

Correct about what????

Sorry, I'm slow, but you seem to change your position so often that I struggle to keep up.


Originally Posted by chuck34 http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=571475#post571475)
They (Gaza) had it's own government, "democratically" elected (Hamas).



you are correct yes...

[chuck34]

let me go form myself a cult..then turn it into a religion and ask the UN to give me a plot of land somewhere...

i am not against anyone who is jewish..as i said i have ffriends who are jews and they respect my views..you should too....AS THEY ARE MY VIEWS, just like i respect your views

i dont care for Hamas or Israel..both as bad as eachother from my standing. its the poor innocent people on both sides who i care about....

but we cant ignore the reasons why this conflict is all about..thats the issue at hand at the end of the day

i just dont see why a people who formed a religion from a cult should be abe to take someone elses plot of land...

So what religion is not formed from a "cult" in your view???

What countries law should and should not be respected is Judaism is from a cult????? I believe that every coutry looks down upon killing and stealing. That pretty much comes from the Torah (sp?) as far as I can tell.

So if Judaism (again sorry I can't spell) is based on a cult, then their teachings must be all wrong. Therfore, I can kill you or steal from you, and that is ok, right?????

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm sorry but your "if you're not with us you're against us" attitude deserves to be pointed out and made fun of. It's the very same attitude the Israeli govt and Hamas have. Both sides need to grow up and realise that the other side will always be there no matter what and deal with it. You should also grow up and stop accusing people of supporting terrorist organisations and pirates. That just makes you look like a fool.

You say both sides need to grow up and realize the other side will be there no matter what. Last time I checked, the Hamas official credo hasn't changed. They want Israel GONE. You just proved my point all along that Israel cannot negotiate with people who are not reasonable nor have any respect for human rights. If they did, they would be negotiating with Israel and would have all along to improve the lives of people living in Gaza as opposed to spending money on arms to toss rockets and fight Israeli's. Israel left Gaza and would have done nothing sinister in helping the people out there if they had elected people who were not bent on starting a war. Well they wanted a war, now they have one.

The problem isn't with Israel. The problem is with the Palestinian leadership, whether it be Fatah or Hamas not figuring out they are fighting a war they cannot win and being egged on and backed by countries too cowardly to take on Israel directly. Now Israel isnt' perfect, but no country is and while they are being accused of being heavy handed in Gaza ( something I wish they wouldn't do), I don't recall you lefties and "peace loving peoples" condemning Hamas. No...you guys were on the bash George Bush train.

Thank god THAT ends in 15 days and you can find out Obama will rule from the center much more than you would like. I guess you will find fault with THAT no doubt...for the only perfect world is the one that exists between your ears.

[chuck34]

Originally Posted by chuck34 http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=571475#post571475)
They (Gaza) had it's own government, "democratically" elected (Hamas).



you are correct yes...

So if I am correct about Gaza having a "democraticaly" elected government. Any you are arguing that that "democraticaly" elected government has the right to shoot rockets at whom ever it feels fit. Then you must have no problem with the Welsh raining rockets down on London, right????

[steve_spackman]

So what religion is not formed from a "cult" in your view???

good point...thats a great question by the way...i think we both know the answer to that one.

What countries law should and should not be respected is Judaism is from a cult????? I believe that every coutry looks down upon killing and stealing. That pretty much comes from the Torah (sp?) as far as I can tell.

So if Judaism (again sorry I can't spell) is based on a cult, then their teachings must be all wrong. Therfore, I can kill you or steal from you, and that is ok, right?????[/quote]

feel free mate..feel free

[steve_spackman]

So if I am correct about Gaza having a "democraticaly" elected government. Any you are arguing that that "democraticaly" elected government has the right to shoot rockets at whom ever it feels fit. Then you must have no problem with the Welsh raining rockets down on London, right????

well didnt GWB rain rockets and such down on Iraq??? so it must be ok for "democraticaly" elected governments to that?

[steve_spackman]

anyway im off to the land of nod..nice chatting guys and be safe..ciao

[chuck34]

Thank god THAT ends in 15 days and you can find out Obama will rule from the center much more than you would like. I guess you will find fault with THAT no doubt...for the only perfect world is the one that exists between your ears.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Who will the blame once the "smart, intellectually curious" Obama becomes President????

Wasn't the World supposed to "be at peace" once we had the great and all powerfull Obama at the healm???

[Easy Drifter]

Well, well. You, Mr. Spackman are denying that Israel has the right to exist.
Posts 377 and 383.
Therefore you are stating that the United Nations was wrong and their creation of the Nation of Israel is invalid. You therefore are clearly taking the position that Hamas is correct in their credo to destroy Israel.
Since this appears to be your position it is obvious that anything the United Nations says or does now has no validity since you deny they had the right to create Israel in the first place.

[chuck34]

good point...thats a great question by the way...i think we both know the answer to that one.

What countries law should and should not be respected is Judaism is from a cult????? I believe that every coutry looks down upon killing and stealing. That pretty much comes from the Torah (sp?) as far as I can tell.

So if Judaism (again sorry I can't spell) is based on a cult, then their teachings must be all wrong. Therfore, I can kill you or steal from you, and that is ok, right?????

feel free mate..feel free[/QUOTE]

So what in the heck is your point then?????????????????

The Islamics (sp?, again) are following their law, which states that once a land is Islamic that it allways will be, and must be kept as such. This is the driving factor of Hamas, no????? But since all religion is based on a cult this is also invalid, just as the Israaelis following their law is invalid, right??? But you seem to be arguing the that the Islamics (religion) have a right to the land while the Jews (religion) do not. And that all religion is bad.

I'm lost Steve, I guess I need a remedial religion course according to Steve.

Or, if all religion is bad, then wouldn't the country that last conqured the region have claim to it??? If that is not the case then perhaps you could explain it to me

I'm really lost now.

The Jews seem to have the oldest claim to the land now known as Israel and the latest claim. However you slice it, it is Israel's to do with how it likes. But some here want to discount one, the other, or both claims the Israelis' have on the land because their religion is based on "more of a cult" that the Islamics?????????

Wow, I need some sleep.

[chuck34]

Well, well. You, Mr. Spackman are denying that Israel has the right to exist.
Posts 377 and 383.
Therefore you are stating that the United Nations was wrong and their creation of the Nation of Israel is invalid. You therefore are clearly taking the position that Hamas is correct in their credo to destroy Israel.
Since this appears to be your position it is obvious that anything the United Nations says or does now has no validity since you deny they had the right to create Israel in the first place.

Hey I'll buy that. We (the US) no longer has to abide by anything the UN decrees right???

[chuck34]

anyway im off to the land of nod..nice chatting guys and be safe..ciao

You can't get out of this. When you wake up I want/need to know your response to Wales bombing London???/

[Mark in Oshawa]

well didnt GWB rain rockets and such down on Iraq??? so it must be ok for "democraticaly" elected governments to that?

Spackman...huge difference in a sense. One, Dubya left the door wide open for Hussein to allow the UN inspectors in to visit his "WMD" sites and forestall the invasion. Two, the UN provisions and resolutions from the first "Gulf War" told Hussein that if he didn't comply under these provisions, the UN had the right to sanction the US and UK and the like to go back into war mode there. Three, the UN provisions were very murky on only what was required for the war to start up but the main point is Hussein could have stopped any invasion by going to the UN and agreeing to full inspections. We know now he didn't want to ADMIT he had nothing. Arab bravado and stupidity. He was playing poker with no cards and he thought the US would back down like Clinton did.

So while you may think the Iraq conflict was wrong or illegal, in reality it wasn't. The UN has all but admitted that and the UN by the way was/is a very corrupt organization at times. One has to look no further than the amount of money Kofi Annan's son was getting in kickbacks through the sanctions of Iraq. So spare me the nonsense of your moral equilvalency.

As for any state having the right to attack another, last time I looked self defense was one. Hamas started attacking Israel back in November. After about a month of this Israel started shooting back and the last time I looked, no military man in any army in any nation advocates a measured response in a full out war. What Hamas was trying to provoke is what they have now, a full invasion so they could put their own people in the firing line of the Israeli military. I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times, you are not sane if you start a battle you cannot win and no sane individual would bet on Hamas wiping out Israel so why bother tossing rockets 20kms inside the border? What is the purpose if not to provoke an attack?

[Mark in Oshawa]

You can't get out of this. When you wake up I want/need to know your response to Wales bombing London???/

He would be all for it because god knows Westminister has been the yoke of oppression against the Welsh and the Scots? I doubt it.....but the only people oppressing the Palestianians from making a better life are their leaders....

[chuck34]

He would be all for it because god knows Westminister has been the yoke of oppression against the Welsh and the Scots? I doubt it.....but the only people oppressing the Palestianians from making a better life are their leaders....

Clearly, but then again you and I (and a few others) are sane ;-)

[Easy Drifter]

Between the three of us we may have backed him into a corner but I expect he will squirm out of it.
Looking at the time here it is around 6 or 7 in the morning in England so I guess he does need sleep.
There is a little group who seem to think Hamas is totally in the right and Israel totally wrong.
Most of them support the Taliban. They seem to dislike anything the strong democracies do. Some I think are total pacifists.
There are a couple of posters (I can't remember if they are in the anti Israel group) who actually support the Somali pirates in other threads.
Now it is my bedtime.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Between the three of us we may have backed him into a corner but I expect he will squirm out of it.
Looking at the time here it is around 6 or 7 in the morning in England so I guess he does need sleep.
There is a little group who seem to think Hamas is totally in the right and Israel totally wrong.
Most of them support the Taliban. They seem to dislike anything the strong democracies do. Some I think are total pacifists.
There are a couple of posters (I can't remember if they are in the anti Israel group) who actually support the Somali pirates in other threads.
Now it is my bedtime.

He wouldn't admit he was in the corner anyhow.

Daniel, Spackman and Eki all seem to have a hatred of any western democracy that doesn't bend over and grab its ankles at the first sign of aversity. Self loathing libreals who feel guilty for the world they get to live in don't seem to ever understand that the princples of democracy and capitalism are available for any nation brave enough to stand up to those who would tyranny within their borders but they must be principles that are fought for from time to time.

With thinking like these brilliant dupes, we would be speaking German in most of the world now.....

[Eki]

But what if the Scots started lobbing rockets into London? What if after that you said, fine have Scotland back, but leave us alone. You signed a treaty and all was well.
.
North Irish bombed London in the past, but still the British didn't send their air force, navy and artillery to bomb Belfast.

[Eki]

With thinking like these brilliant dupes, we would be speaking German in most of the world now.....
I've asked this before, but I ask again, since I didn't get any answers. Why is speaking English better than speaking German?

BTW, if the Finns had waited for the US and the UK to help, we would be speaking Russian now.

Do you seriously compare Hamas to Nazi Germany?

[Daniel]

You say both sides need to grow up and realize the other side will be there no matter what. Last time I checked, the Hamas official credo hasn't changed. They want Israel GONE. You just proved my point all along that Israel cannot negotiate with people who are not reasonable nor have any respect for human rights. If they did, they would be negotiating with Israel and would have all along to improve the lives of people living in Gaza as opposed to spending money on arms to toss rockets and fight Israeli's. Israel left Gaza and would have done nothing sinister in helping the people out there if they had elected people who were not bent on starting a war. Well they wanted a war, now they have one.

The problem isn't with Israel. The problem is with the Palestinian leadership, whether it be Fatah or Hamas not figuring out they are fighting a war they cannot win and being egged on and backed by countries too cowardly to take on Israel directly. Now Israel isnt' perfect, but no country is and while they are being accused of being heavy handed in Gaza ( something I wish they wouldn't do), I don't recall you lefties and "peace loving peoples" condemning Hamas. No...you guys were on the bash George Bush train.

Thank god THAT ends in 15 days and you can find out Obama will rule from the center much more than you would like. I guess you will find fault with THAT no doubt...for the only perfect world is the one that exists between your ears.

I said both sides need to grow up and suddenly you're acting like I said only Israel needs to grow up.

It's a vicious circle. Israel bombs Gaza and blockades it, people in Gaza resent this and Hamas shoots rockets into Israel so Israel continues to bomb and shell Gaza. Rinse and repeat. It's really fairly simple. Put yourself in the position of a person in Gaza. Would you stand up for that **** if it were happening to you? Same with Israel I guess. But you would have thought that the govt of Israel would see this and think. Ok lets try and end this because this isn't good for anybody, open the borders to humanitarian aid and supplies and keep checking trucks for arms (as is their right) and see how things go. Sure there was a ceasefire but wtf good was that when Gaza was still blockades? Sure we won't shoot you to death! We'll just starve you and let your people die of easily preventable diseases. Now there's a ****en sweat deal if ever there was one. :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

He wouldn't admit he was in the corner anyhow.

Daniel, Spackman and Eki all seem to have a hatred of any western democracy that doesn't bend over and grab its ankles at the first sign of aversity. Self loathing libreals who feel guilty for the world they get to live in don't seem to ever understand that the princples of democracy and capitalism are available for any nation brave enough to stand up to those who would tyranny within their borders but they must be principles that are fought for from time to time.

With thinking like these brilliant dupes, we would be speaking German in most of the world now.....

Stop being a fool. I'm the first on here to criticise China or Russia so don't give me any moronic crap about hating western democracy.

Why is it that our North American friends have been brainwashed into this "Us vs those damn liberals" doctrine of politics. That's not how it works in the rest of the world. That's just your inept and useless media's way of polarising people and causing friction and making every news story easy to understand so you can employ some halfwit to cover politics on your channel rather than a proper political correspondent. See Bill O'Reilly as a good example of this.

Many won't recall but I actually more of less supported the invasion of Iraq at the time based on the information reported in the media. Turns out the information was bogus and I now don't support it though I do support the troops who are there of course. So I'm not some pacifist who merely dislikes conflict of any kind and I actually feel that sometimes force is necessary. But when it comes to a situation like this where there is a vicious circle force is the dumbest thing possible for both sides.

[Camelopard]

Stop being a fool. I'm the first on here to criticise China or Russia so don't give me any moronic crap about hating western democracy.

Why is it that our North American friends have been brainwashed into this "Us vs those damn liberals" doctrine of politics. That's not how it works in the rest of the world. That's just your inept and useless media's way of polarising people and causing friction and making every news story easy to understand so you can employ some halfwit to cover politics on your channel rather than a proper political correspondent. See Bill O'Reilly as a good example of this.

Many won't recall but I actually more of less supported the invasion of Iraq at the time based on the information reported in the media. Turns out the information was bogus and I now don't support it though I do support the troops who are there of course. So I'm not some pacifist who merely dislikes conflict of any kind and I actually feel that sometimes force is necessary. But when it comes to a situation like this where there is a vicious circle force is the dumbest thing possible for both sides.


Daniel it isn't worth it, just because you have defended the Palestinians you automatically are anti-semitic and a tree hugging pacifist left wing raving looney with no right to an opinion at all, and just in case you do have an opinion, it is wrong, cause I said so. :)

You really should start watching more Faux news and forget that anti-semitic al jezeera crap and listen more to that drug addict Rush Limbaugh, that way you will get a far more balanced view on this whole problem. :p

[Eki]

You really should start watching more Faux news and forget that anti-semitic al jezeera crap and listen more to that drug addict Rush Limbaugh, that way you will get a far more balanced view on this whole problem. :p
Fair and balanced.

[Mark]

Anyone actually watched Al Jazeera news? It's actually quite good!

[Daniel]

Anyone actually watched Al Jazeera news? It's actually quite good!

Is that like an Islamic Jeremy Clarkson network based on Al Jazeera? :p

[BDunnell]

So while you may think the Iraq conflict was wrong or illegal, in reality it wasn't. The UN has all but admitted that and the UN by the way was/is a very corrupt organization at times. One has to look no further than the amount of money Kofi Annan's son was getting in kickbacks through the sanctions of Iraq. So spare me the nonsense of your moral equilvalency.

It's quite simple. The war was justified on the basis of WMD being present in Iraq (and a vaguely spurious human rights justification - spurious in the sense that it often takes a long time for those on the right to become concerned about human rights violations, and then only when it suits their own ends). Those weapons were not there, no matter how corrupt the UN is. I don't see why this is so hard for defenders of the conflict to grasp, even now.

[steve_spackman]

Well, well. You, Mr. Spackman are denying that Israel has the right to exist.
Posts 377 and 383.
Therefore you are stating that the United Nations was wrong and their creation of the Nation of Israel is invalid. You therefore are clearly taking the position that Hamas is correct in their credo to destroy Israel.
Since this appears to be your position it is obvious that anything the United Nations says or does now has no validity since you deny they had the right to create Israel in the first place.

i have not even stated that Hamas has the right to destroy Israel...

i have to point out here that Israel ignores the UN..think about all the resolutions/mandates Israel has ignored...

[Mark]

i have to point out here that Israel ignores the UN..think about all the resolutions/mandates Israel has ignored...

Well so does the USA and the UK. Ignoring the UN seems to be quite popular.

[steve_spackman]

Hey I'll buy that. We (the US) no longer has to abide by anything the UN decrees right???

Well Mr Bush has never done that anyway..he ignored the UN to go fight he little war on terror....with no regard for anyones rights...

[chuck34]

North Irish bombed London in the past, but still the British didn't send their air force, navy and artillery to bomb Belfast.

Really?? I seem to remeber seeing British tanks in Northern Ireland. Guess that was all a ploy by the evil media?

[steve_spackman]

Anyone actually watched Al Jazeera news? It's actually quite good!

yes its very open informative news..

[BDunnell]

Really?? I seem to remeber seeing British tanks in Northern Ireland. Guess that was all a ploy by the evil media?

To draw a parallel between the presence of British forces in Northern Ireland and anything to do with Israel's various military actions is entirely incorrect.

[steve_spackman]

Well so does the USA and the UK. Ignoring the UN seems to be quite popular.

But then some nations think that they are above everyone else..that is the US, UK and Israel.

Im not saying us brits are perfect..not by any means

[chuck34]

Daniel it isn't worth it, just because you have defended the Palestinians you automatically are anti-semitic and a tree hugging pacifist left wing raving looney with no right to an opinion at all, and just in case you do have an opinion, it is wrong, cause I said so. :)

You really should start watching more Faux news and forget that anti-semitic al jezeera crap and listen more to that drug addict Rush Limbaugh, that way you will get a far more balanced view on this whole problem. :p

I have never said that any of you are anti-semitic (although I have doubts about Steve, no matter how many "friends" he claims to have).

Everyone has their right to their opinions, and I respect that. But I also have the right to mine. And my opinion runs counter to your's, and everything that I have seen dealing with this current situation says to me that this time Hamas is to blame. And I believe the only way to deal with them now is to forcably remove them from the situation.

[steve_spackman]

It's quite simple. The war was justified on the basis of WMD being present in Iraq (and a vaguely spurious human rights justification - spurious in the sense that it often takes a long time for those on the right to become concerned about human rights violations, and then only when it suits their own ends). Those weapons were not there, no matter how corrupt the UN is. I don't see why this is so hard for defenders of the conflict to grasp, even now.

It was Bush n Blairs war..2 christian soldiers (a bible in one hand and a bazooka in the other).

It was not about the so called WMBs..it was about 'TEXAS TEA'. All those US and brits dying on a pack of lies. Then Bush has the nerve to send the leader of another country to death...im thinking that Bush n Blair should be tried for war crimes...

[steve_spackman]

I have never said that any of you are anti-semitic (although I have doubts about Steve, no matter how many "friends" he claims to have).

Everyone has their right to their opinions, and I respect that. But I also have the right to mine. And my opinion runs counter to your's, and everything that I have seen dealing with this current situation says to me that this time Hamas is to blame. And I believe the only way to deal with them now is to forcably remove them from the situation.

believe me i am not anti-semitic..

[chuck34]

i have not even stated that Hamas has the right to destroy Israel...

i have to point out here that Israel ignores the UN..think about all the resolutions/mandates Israel has ignored...

You may not have come out and said that Hamas has the right to destroy Israel, but every time someone asks you that question your response is something to the effect that the Jewish religion is based on a cult. I think we are all smart enough to see what that means.

[chuck34]

To draw a parallel between the presence of British forces in Northern Ireland and anything to do with Israel's various military actions is entirely incorrect.

How?

In both cases there is/was a group of people claiming a right to land, they did/do not "own" that land, and therefore they start bombing people. Seems pretty acurate to me.

[steve_spackman]

How?

In both cases there is/was a group of people claiming a right to land, they did/do not "own" that land, and therefore they start bombing people. Seems pretty acurate to me.

Despite the monstrous nature of the military actions by Israel, there are still people who insist on blaming the victim and dismissing any and all Palestinian claims as 'propaganda' This..despite overwhelming proof to the contrary. Israel certainly does have the right to protect itself..but so too do the people of Israeli occupied Palestine. Israel is engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people ...plain and simple..and yet there are still those who continue to justify these horrific actions that have resulted in the slaughter of innocent children...

[BDunnell]

How?

In both cases there is/was a group of people claiming a right to land, they did/do not "own" that land, and therefore they start bombing people. Seems pretty acurate to me.

I meant about the actions of the forces deployed. I agree that there is a parallel between the various Northern Irish terrorist groups and Hamas, which is why it ought to be possible to enter into negotiations with Hamas.

[chuck34]

believe me i am not anti-semitic..

Shure could fool me. Seems like every time you post you are telling everyone how the Jewish religion is based on a cult. That doesn't seem very respectful to me.

[steve_spackman]

Shure could fool me. Seems like every time you post you are telling everyone how the Jewish religion is based on a cult. That doesn't seem very respectful to me.

It is beyond ludicrous to compare Hamas' handful of outdated, inaccurate rockets with the modern Israeli war machine. In answer to the question of where is the outrage when Palestinians bomb Israeli schools, I say, all over the biased American media. The question should be, where is the outrage over Israeli theft of land, water, energy, blockades of food and medical supplies? Israel has a homeland and the most powerful benefactor in the world; does not Palestine deserve the same? These actions by any other country besides Israel would be condemned as terrorism as the Hamas attacks quite properly are, but the issue is always, always framed as they attack we defend when we all know that 540 Palestinian deaths does not equal 5 Israeli deaths. Frankly, one is too many. The problem in the Middle East stems from the fact that the US armed and supported one side and stands idly by as the pretense of self defense continues.

[chuck34]

Despite the monstrous nature of the military actions by Israel, there are still people who insist on blaming the victim and dismissing any and all Palestinian claims as 'propaganda' This..despite overwhelming proof to the contrary. Israel certainly does have the right to protect itself..but so too do the people of Israeli occupied Palestine. Israel is engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people ...plain and simple..and yet there are still those who continue to justify these horrific actions that have resulted in the slaughter of innocent children...

"The monstrous nature of the military actions by Israel"??? So the Palestinians firing rockets, with no guidance system at population centers is not monstrous in your book? Or am I just believing "the evil media" again?? Do you deny that the Palestinians have been and still are purposly targeting civilians, as well as using their own civilians as human shields?

"Israel is engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people" I assume that you are talking about "the blockade"? So the Israelis were "strangling" the Palisinians and keeping food and supplies out of their hands, right? So why is it that the first thing they do is smuggle in rockets (not food) and fire them off at civilian centers? I'm thinking that the first thing that I would do would be to ask my Arab brothers for some help with food and supplies, but that's just me.

"Israeli occupied Palestine." So with this one phrase you have finally admitted that you do not believe Israel has the right to exist, just like Hamas. Sounds like a good starting point for negotiations. You change this view and then we can talk.

[chuck34]

I meant about the actions of the forces deployed. I agree that there is a parallel between the various Northern Irish terrorist groups and Hamas, which is why it ought to be possible to enter into negotiations with Hamas.

So Israel has not negotiated with Hamas. I get it now.

[steve_spackman]

"The monstrous nature of the military actions by Israel"??? So the Palestinians firing rockets, with no guidance system at population centers is not monstrous in your book? Or am I just believing "the evil media" again?? Do you deny that the Palestinians have been and still are purposly targeting civilians, as well as using their own civilians as human shields?

"Israel is engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people" I assume that you are talking about "the blockade"? So the Israelis were "strangling" the Palisinians and keeping food and supplies out of their hands, right? So why is it that the first thing they do is smuggle in rockets (not food) and fire them off at civilian centers? I'm thinking that the first thing that I would do would be to ask my Arab brothers for some help with food and supplies, but that's just me.

"Israeli occupied Palestine." So with this one phrase you have finally admitted that you do not believe Israel has the right to exist, just like Hamas. Sounds like a good starting point for negotiations. You change this view and then we can talk.

the words Israel has no right to exist have never come out of my mouth....i keep saying that they are as bad as eachother, yet you fail to see this.

[BDunnell]

So Israel has not negotiated with Hamas. I get it now.

And there is no parallel between what British forces were assigned to do in Northern Ireland and what Israeli forces are assigned to do in Gaza.

[Daniel]

what British forces were assigned to do in Northern Ireland and what Israeli forces are assigned to do in Gaza.

What? Piss people off? :)

[chuck34]

the words Israel has no right to exist have never come out of my mouth....i keep saying that they are as bad as eachother, yet you fail to see this.

"Israeli occupied Palestine" sure sounds like you are saying that Israel has no right to that land.

You keep saying that you are saying they are as bad as each other, but then you argue only for the Hamas side.

I do believe that Palestine should have a state. A two state solution is probably the only way to end all of this. Strangely enough, this is what the UN set out to do in Palestine 60 years ago.

The problem is that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were set up a few years ago as "autonomus" entities as a first step to a two state solution. But then teh Pali's go and bugger the whole deal.

[steve_spackman]

"Israeli occupied Palestine" sure sounds like you are saying that Israel has no right to that land.

You keep saying that you are saying they are as bad as each other, but then you argue only for the Hamas side.

I do believe that Palestine should have a state. A two state solution is probably the only way to end all of this. Strangely enough, this is what the UN set out to do in Palestine 60 years ago.

The problem is that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were set up a few years ago as "autonomus" entities as a first step to a two state solution. But then teh Pali's go and bugger the whole deal.

no it was Hamas that buggered the whole deal, not the 'palis"

[Eki]

You keep saying that you are saying they are as bad as each other, but then you argue only for the Hamas side.


You only argue for the Israeli side. If we wouldn't argue for the Hamas side, who would?

[Hondo]

It is beyond ludicrous to compare Hamas' handful of outdated, inaccurate rockets with the modern Israeli war machine. In answer to the question of where is the outrage when Palestinians bomb Israeli schools, I say, all over the biased American media. The question should be, where is the outrage over Israeli theft of land, water, energy, blockades of food and medical supplies? Israel has a homeland and the most powerful benefactor in the world; does not Palestine deserve the same? These actions by any other country besides Israel would be condemned as terrorism as the Hamas attacks quite properly are, but the issue is always, always framed as they attack we defend when we all know that 540 Palestinian deaths does not equal 5 Israeli deaths. Frankly, one is too many. The problem in the Middle East stems from the fact that the US armed and supported one side and stands idly by as the pretense of self defense continues.

Egypt has a border on one side of Gaza also. Their feelings on Hamas are about the same as Israel's. Egypt also restricts entry and exit from Gaza.

Does it really matter to you whether I'm shooting at you with a flintlock muzzleloader or a modern rifle? If I started sniping with the muzzleloader with little effect but switched to a modern rifle with longer effective range would you cheerfully move your boundries further back to avoid my fire or would you take steps to eliminate the threat?

The US arms and supports many countries, including countries in the Middle East. Hamas is free to seek weapons and support from whomever they wish. Very few countries want to be "on record" giving support to what they view as a loose cannon. If Russia or China wanted to provide military aid to Hamas do you really think the US, NATO, or the EU would enforce a blockcade that could trigger a world war over Hamas? As long as Hamas insists upon the death of Israel, there will be no peace. Don't kid yourself, nobody trusts Hamas.

[steve_spackman]

Egypt has a border on one side of Gaza also. Their feelings on Hamas are about the same as Israel's. Egypt also restricts entry and exit from Gaza.

Does it really matter to you whether I'm shooting at you with a flintlock muzzleloader or a modern rifle? If I started sniping with the muzzleloader with little effect but switched to a modern rifle with longer effective range would you cheerfully move your boundries further back to avoid my fire or would you take steps to eliminate the threat?

The US arms and supports many countries, including countries in the Middle East. Hamas is free to seek weapons and support from whomever they wish. Very few countries want to be "on record" giving support to what they view as a loose cannon. If Russia or China wanted to provide military aid to Hamas do you really think the US, NATO, or the EU would enforce a blockcade that could trigger a world war over Hamas? As long as Hamas insists upon the death of Israel, there will be no peace. Don't kid yourself, nobody trusts Hamas.

Can someone tell me whats so special about Israel????

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stop being a fool. I'm the first on here to criticise China or Russia so don't give me any moronic crap about hating western democracy.

Why is it that our North American friends have been brainwashed into this "Us vs those damn liberals" doctrine of politics. That's not how it works in the rest of the world. That's just your inept and useless media's way of polarising people and causing friction and making every news story easy to understand so you can employ some halfwit to cover politics on your channel rather than a proper political correspondent. See Bill O'Reilly as a good example of this.

Many won't recall but I actually more of less supported the invasion of Iraq at the time based on the information reported in the media. Turns out the information was bogus and I now don't support it though I do support the troops who are there of course. So I'm not some pacifist who merely dislikes conflict of any kind and I actually feel that sometimes force is necessary. But when it comes to a situation like this where there is a vicious circle force is the dumbest thing possible for both sides.


I will tell you what Daniel. I will not accuse you of being a damned libreal if you quit putting me in the corner of being a right wing loon.

As for Bill O'Reilly he is far more accurate than you think but that is ok. Last time I looked most of his critics never listened or actually watched a whole show of us anyhow. He isn't always right and is a bit of a one trick pony on some topics but he gives the other side far more credit than the likes of a Chris Matthews or Keith Olbermann on MSNBC.

This "vicious circle of violence" still though comes back to one salient fact that none of Israel's detractors want to admit. The circle always comes back to all the responsibility for this war seems to end up right back on Israel. It never seems to be Hamas's fault. I have NOT seen any thread in the last 2 months where you or Eki or Spackman have gone out of your way to dump on Hamas for start lobbing rockets at Israel. That is where this latest bunfight got started.

We can talk about how Israel cut off Gaza and argue it isn't fair. I can also bring up the fact Hamas and the Palestinians wanted the Israeli settlers out of Gaza a few years back. So the Israeli's pulled out. Then the violence on the border continued. The Egyptians who should be trying to help Gaza and could be making Israel look really small in world opinion right now wont help because they too are fed up with this cancer on their border. The people of Palestine are hostages, not of the "Zionist" cabal that you guys accuse Israel of being but their own sad history of not facing the reality that going back to 1947 they were sold a bill of goods by the Arab nations. Most of the Palestinians could have lived side by side in peace with the Jewish people of the region and had been for some time. It was the outside Arab influences that told the Palestinians to NOT cooperate and that the Jews would be wiped out.
So do we have what we have now? Should the UN of given the Jews their own homeland there? In light of how things have turned out I wonder if something should have been done differently but as we all know now that if you look at the way Israel has had to defend itself continually from the constant attack in the press and in reality while most of the Arab nations in the area skate though with far less democratic values and greater atrocities; it is clear to me most of you are suckers of the press or you must have some anti-Jewish streak deep down in some place.

Syria wiped out a whole town back in the 80's in their own nation and most of you would look me in the eye and ignore this while bleating about how 500 died in Gaza in the last month. Both are awful but look at the circumstances and you can understand why Israel cant afford to lose a war or even give its enemies the feeling they can win. Gaza sucks, it is a mess and Israel is awfully heavy handed but as I have pointed out more than once, they are not going to err on the side of caution and lose their citizens to some terrorist entity bent on wiping them out.....

[steve_spackman]

i like Keith Olbermann...great guy

[steve_spackman]

I will tell you what Daniel. I will not accuse you of being a damned libreal if you quit putting me in the corner of being a right wing loon.

As for Bill O'Reilly he is far more accurate than you think but that is ok. Last time I looked most of his critics never listened or actually watched a whole show of us anyhow. He isn't always right and is a bit of a one trick pony on some topics but he gives the other side far more credit than the likes of a Chris Matthews or Keith Olbermann on MSNBC.

This "vicious circle of violence" still though comes back to one salient fact that none of Israel's detractors want to admit. The circle always comes back to all the responsibility for this war seems to end up right back on Israel. It never seems to be Hamas's fault. I have NOT seen any thread in the last 2 months where you or Eki or Spackman have gone out of your way to dump on Hamas for start lobbing rockets at Israel. That is where this latest bunfight got started.

We can talk about how Israel cut off Gaza and argue it isn't fair. I can also bring up the fact Hamas and the Palestinians wanted the Israeli settlers out of Gaza a few years back. So the Israeli's pulled out. Then the violence on the border continued. The Egyptians who should be trying to help Gaza and could be making Israel look really small in world opinion right now wont help because they too are fed up with this cancer on their border. The people of Palestine are hostages, not of the "Zionist" cabal that you guys accuse Israel of being but their own sad history of not facing the reality that going back to 1947 they were sold a bill of goods by the Arab nations. Most of the Palestinians could have lived side by side in peace with the Jewish people of the region and had been for some time. It was the outside Arab influences that told the Palestinians to NOT cooperate and that the Jews would be wiped out.
So do we have what we have now? Should the UN of given the Jews their own homeland there? In light of how things have turned out I wonder if something should have been done differently but as we all know now that if you look at the way Israel has had to defend itself continually from the constant attack in the press and in reality while most of the Arab nations in the area skate though with far less democratic values and greater atrocities; it is clear to me most of you are suckers of the press or you must have some anti-Jewish streak deep down in some place.

Syria wiped out a whole town back in the 80's in their own nation and most of you would look me in the eye and ignore this while bleating about how 500 died in Gaza in the last month. Both are awful but look at the circumstances and you can understand why Israel cant afford to lose a war or even give its enemies the feeling they can win. Gaza sucks, it is a mess and Israel is awfully heavy handed but as I have pointed out more than once, they are not going to err on the side of caution and lose their citizens to some terrorist entity bent on wiping them out.....

can you find it in yourself to call me steve..i do believe thats my first name...

[steve_spackman]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]I will tell you what Daniel. I will not accuse you of being a damned libreal if you quit putting me in the corner of being a right wing loon.

As for Bill O'Reilly he is far more accurate than you think but that is ok. Last time I looked most of his critics never listened or actually watched a whole show of us anyhow. He isn't always right and is a bit of a one trick pony on some topics but he gives the other side far more credit than the likes of a Chris Matthews or Keith Olbermann on MSNBC.

This "vicious circle of violence" still though comes back to one salient fact that none of Israel's detractors want to admit. The circle always comes back to all the responsibility for this war seems to end up right back on Israel. It never seems to be Hamas's fault. I have NOT seen any thread in the last 2 months where you or Eki or Spackman have gone out of your way to dump on Hamas for start lobbing rockets at Israel. That is where this latest bunfight got started.

We can talk about how Israel cut off Gaza and argue it isn't fair. I can also bring up the fact Hamas and the Palestinians wanted the Israeli settlers out of Gaza a few years back. So the Israeli's pulled out. Then the violence on the border continued. The Egyptians who should be trying to help Gaza and could be making Israel look really small in world opinion right now wont help because they too are fed up with this cancer on their border. The people of Palestine are hostages, not of the "Zionist" cabal that you guys accuse Israel of being but their own sad history of not facing the reality that going back to 1947 they were sold a bill of goods by the Arab nations. Most of the Palestinians could have lived side by side in peace with the Jewish people of the region and had been for some time. It was the outside Arab influences that told the Palestinians to NOT cooperate and that the Jews would be wiped out.
So do we have what we have now? Should the UN of given the Jews their own homeland there? In light of how things have turned out I wonder if something should have been done differently but as we all know now that if you look at the way Israel has had to defend itself continually from the constant attack in the press and in reality while most of the Arab nations in the area skate though with far less democratic values and greater atrocities; it is clear to me most of you are suckers of the press or you must have some anti-Jewish streak deep down in some place.

Syria wiped out a whole town back in the 80's in their own nation and most of you would look me in the eye and ignore this while bleating about how 500 died in Gaza in the last month. Both are awful but look at the circumstances and you can understand why Israel cant afford to lose a war or even give its enemies the feeling they can win. Gaza sucks, it is a mess and Israel is awfully heavy handed but as I have pointed out more than once, they are not going to err on the side of caution and lose their citizens to some terrorist entity bent on wiping them out.....[/quote

depends what press you get your news from?? So tell me any country out there you have a dislike for?

[Easy Drifter]

You are not sure if that is your first name???? :D
You just believe it is?????? :cool:

[Daniel]

I will tell you what Daniel. I will not accuse you of being a damned libreal if you quit putting me in the corner of being a right wing loon.

No problem, will do :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mr. Spackman...if you want me to call you Steve, that would imply we are friends. We seem not to be...at least not on this thread

As for you liking that loon Olbermann that says all I need to know about your politics.

Are there countries I like? Yes...my own, the UK, Australia, NZ, USA, Japan, most of the EU and basicallly any nation that elects in a fair election its government and respects human rights. Why I dislike Hamas is pretty simple. They do not respect human rights and our values. You can argue the Israeli's don't but you would be wrong in doing so. That said, there are things they shouldn't do and I will condemn them only so far on that because of their situation. They cannot lose to this enemy, not once...not ever.

AS for you Eki, you state if you didn't argue for Hamas, then who would? Simple Eki...quit defending people who have in their charter of what they are the goal of wiping a soverign nation OFF THE MAP and their people. They just don't want Israel, they want to kill all the Jew's in it. You want to lie in bed with them? You claim to be for human rights and always condemn Bush for his sin's on this score but you vehemently defend with the help of your buddies here the right of Hamas to start a war using the Palestinians as shields that they cant win. You call yourself intrested in Human rights, you should really examine the people you are in bed with here.

Israel if left alone would not be attacking and conquering its neighbours for imperial ambition. If they had that goal, they would have kept a big chunk of Syria and not have given back the Sinai to the Egyptians. Instead they made peace with Egypt and get along quite well with Jordan. Israel wants peace but a few hotheads with rockets don't want peace...they want a Genocide....

[steve_spackman]

Mr. Spackman...if you want me to call you Steve, that would imply we are friends. We seem not to be...at least not on this thread

As for you liking that loon Olbermann that says all I need to know about your politics.

Are there countries I like? Yes...my own, the UK, Australia, NZ, USA, Japan, most of the EU and basicallly any nation that elects in a fair election its government and respects human rights. Why I dislike Hamas is pretty simple. They do not respect human rights and our values. You can argue the Israeli's don't but you would be wrong in doing so. That said, there are things they shouldn't do and I will condemn them only so far on that because of their situation. They cannot lose to this enemy, not once...not ever.

AS for you Eki, you state if you didn't argue for Hamas, then who would? Simple Eki...quit defending people who have in their charter of what they are the goal of wiping a soverign nation OFF THE MAP and their people. They just don't want Israel, they want to kill all the Jew's in it. You want to lie in bed with them? You claim to be for human rights and always condemn Bush for his sin's on this score but you vehemently defend with the help of your buddies here the right of Hamas to start a war using the Palestinians as shields that they cant win. You call yourself intrested in Human rights, you should really examine the people you are in bed with here.

Israel if left alone would not be attacking and conquering its neighbours for imperial ambition. If they had that goal, they would have kept a big chunk of Syria and not have given back the Sinai to the Egyptians. Instead they made peace with Egypt and get along quite well with Jordan. Israel wants peace but a few hotheads with rockets don't want peace...they want a Genocide....

i dont defend Hamas...

and the US government respects human rights????? pull the other one its got bells on.

[Mark in Oshawa]

yes.. the US government still defends human rights. I know you HATE to see that put in front of you Steve.

Why would they put guys in Guantamino, give them trials, feed and look after them with the free press coming in to make sure they are being looked after if they didn't believe in some sort of human rights. Should they have taken 6 years to give them trials? No....I give you that concession but if they were the thugs you make them out to be, their wouldn't be any Islamic terrorist defendents...they all would have seen a bullet a long time ago with no fanfare at all.

There are democracies that often screw up or bend things to try to effect change and use some often gray areas of the law and then there are nations with no respect at all for human rights. Quit putting the US of A in the same box with dictators and thugs. Your arguements have a lot more credibility when you see gray areas. This "Bush is a Nazi" mentality that many on the far left seem to carry around lose credibility because if we read our history, we realize the real Nazi's and the KGB thugs in the back rooms of the coldwar were far more dangerous than Bush's playing pattycake with his interred suspects at Club Gitmo.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Just remember Steve...if you believe the US of A doesn't respect human rights, a weasel like your hero Keith Olbermann would have been given a one way ride some place quiet a long time ago. The US of A has always defended human rights in a rather sloppy fashion at times but at the core of the constitution and legal system is more protection for the rights of man than most.

[SOD]

Why would they put guys in Guantamino, .

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/moazzam-begg-why-guantanamo-detainees-deserve-asylum-in-europe-1228164.html

here's what its like from a former detainee at Guantanamo.



back to the thread, Israel know the co-ordinates of the UN school.

either:

a) it fired guided munitions into a location they knew would have civilians

or

b) they fired unguided munitions into an area with certain civilians in the locality (as is always the case in Gaza)

[steve_spackman]

yes.. the US government still defends human rights. I know you HATE to see that put in front of you Steve.

Why would they put guys in Guantamino, give them trials, feed and look after them with the free press coming in to make sure they are being looked after if they didn't believe in some sort of human rights. Should they have taken 6 years to give them trials? No....I give you that concession but if they were the thugs you make them out to be, their wouldn't be any Islamic terrorist defendents...they all would have seen a bullet a long time ago with no fanfare at all.

There are democracies that often screw up or bend things to try to effect change and use some often gray areas of the law and then there are nations with no respect at all for human rights. Quit putting the US of A in the same box with dictators and thugs. Your arguements have a lot more credibility when you see gray areas. This "Bush is a Nazi" mentality that many on the far left seem to carry around lose credibility because if we read our history, we realize the real Nazi's and the KGB thugs in the back rooms of the coldwar were far more dangerous than Bush's playing pattycake with his interred suspects at Club Gitmo.

well isnt Bush a thug?? Come on nearly the entire world think that Bush is a murdering, lying, racist thug...he invaded 2 countries and then put one of the leaders to death. He has helped in the killing of women and children in Iraq and you dont think he is a thug...

he tries to spread democracy, yet he has no clue what it means...its gun boat diplomacy at the end of the day

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/moazzam-begg-why-guantanamo-detainees-deserve-asylum-in-europe-1228164.html

here's what its like from a former detainee at Guantanamo.



back to the thread, Israel know the co-ordinates of the UN school.

either:

a) it fired guided munitions into a location they knew would have civilians

or

b) they fired unguided munitions into an area with certain civilians in the locality (as is always the case in Gaza)


First off SOD you are not going to get a true view of what Gitmo is like from a man who was in there in the first place. He wasn't some innocent taken off the street minding his own business, he was a probable terrorist in a war zone. Find me a prisoner who says good things about his captors and I will tell you it wouldn't be some Arab jail and prisoner for sure.

Secondly the Israeli's are not too caring about what they hit in Gaza because the Hamas rockets are placed in places where they KNOW that the Israeli's cannot take the launchers out without hitting schools or hospitals. You really don't think for a second Hamas cares about what THEY hit on the Israeli side now do you? You keep not answering my obvious question of who started this latest go around will you? You know the answer as well as I do but you refuse to admit it.

Should the Israeli's hit schools and infrastructure unrelated to making war? No they shouldn't but when you fight a war things get hit, especially when your enemy is using the civilian population it supposively is fighting for as human shields at every opportunity.

Hell Assad wiped out a whole town of 20000 when it got uppity in the 80's and no one talks about the Syria human rights abuses on this board. How about condemning Iran's treatment of dissidents? Or we can talk about the Taliban suborning the northern province of Pakistan and turning it into a terrorist breeding ground. No...the only evil most of you guys are willing to see is Israel prosecuting a war against Hamas, which the last time I looked was not even hiding their desire to wipe out Israel and finish what Hitler started. Nice people to defend SOD.....

[Hondo]

Can someone tell me whats so special about Israel????

As far as I, personally, am concerned, there is nothing special about Israel. Nor am I particularly bothered by those that dislike people based upon race, ethnicity, and/or religion. As much as people claim to hate "stereotyping" there is, in fact, a great deal of truth in it in a general sense. An old saying gets to be an old saying by being a true saying.

That Israel has been created is a fact. It has now been a country for 60 years. It has been a country longer than some others I can think of. When I was a kid, Sri Lanka was Ceylon.

If you, or anybody else wants to have a go at wiping Israel off the map or eliminating the Jewish people completely thats ok as long as you recognize there are risks to your well being and safety also. If you can go in and stomp them, then do so and get it done. To know you can't take them militarily but insist upon attacking them anyway is pure stupid. I can't think of any country that would sit still while a neighbor zipped rockets in on them. Even the UK went all out to defend and retake the Falklands.

Hamas knew this would happen, knew what the effect on their people would be, and did it anyway, knowing they would win nothing. They would have gotten their 3 border blocade lifted by behaving properly towards Israel.

As long as I'm rolling, much has been made of the "war on terror". There have been no more attacks on the US like the ones of 9-11. Maybe they just wanted to do the one or maybe others have since been thwarted. George W announced the evening of 9-11 to the world that he would be at the site in New York the next day and the time of his visit. He was there, Bin Laden was hiding in a cave. Although I disagree with the Iraq invasion, I have noticed that the world does not lament the passing of Saddam. While Saddam was in custody, none of these "insurgent" groups took hostages or offered any deals to win his freedom. Taking Saddam out was the best thing that ever happened to al-Q. They never could have grown to the level of annoyance in Iraq they have become if Saddam was still there.

Israel isn't special but it isn't going to be buried by little, hateful Islamic factions either. That reality needs to be accepted before all this stops.

[Mark in Oshawa]

After reading Begg's argument...I again point out. If the US was really bent on destroying human rights and denying any sort of dissent on this whole topic, Begg would have gotten the Radioactive milkshake treatment that thugs like Putin are so fond of.

Begg tries to paint the US badly while talking about the election of Barack Obama. IF that doesn't say volumes about how conflicted he seems to be nothing does.

Gitmo is a bad idea but I would hardly say it was a Gulag on the same level as those that existed in the old USSR, or some prison in any Arab nation. Sorry......you people hold the Americans to a far higher standard than any of the people or countries you defend....

[Mark in Oshawa]

As far as I, personally, am concerned, there is nothing special about Israel. Nor am I particularly bothered by those that dislike people based upon race, ethnicity, and/or religion. As much as people claim to hate "stereotyping" there is, in fact, a great deal of truth in it in a general sense. An old saying gets to be an old saying by being a true saying.

That Israel has been created is a fact. It has now been a country for 60 years. It has been a country longer than some others I can think of. When I was a kid, Sri Lanka was Ceylon.

If you, or anybody else wants to have a go at wiping Israel off the map or eliminating the Jewish people completely thats ok as long as you recognize there are risks to your well being and safety also. If you can go in and stomp them, then do so and get it done. To know you can't take them militarily but insist upon attacking them anyway is pure stupid. I can't think of any country that would sit still while a neighbor zipped rockets in on them. Even the UK went all out to defend and retake the Falklands.

Hamas knew this would happen, knew what the effect on their people would be, and did it anyway, knowing they would win nothing. They would have gotten their 3 border blocade lifted by behaving properly towards Israel.

As long as I'm rolling, much has been made of the "war on terror". There have been no more attacks on the US like the ones of 9-11. Maybe they just wanted to do the one or maybe others have since been thwarted. George W announced the evening of 9-11 to the world that he would be at the site in New York the next day and the time of his visit. He was there, Bin Laden was hiding in a cave. Although I disagree with the Iraq invasion, I have noticed that the world does not lament the passing of Saddam. While Saddam was in custody, none of these "insurgent" groups took hostages or offered any deals to win his freedom. Taking Saddam out was the best thing that ever happened to al-Q. They never could have grown to the level of annoyance in Iraq they have become if Saddam was still there.

Israel isn't special but it isn't going to be buried by little, hateful Islamic factions either. That reality needs to be accepted before all this stops.

Bravo Fiero. Of course you do realize that Americans have no right to defend themselves in the eyes of their detractors. You Yanks are to be cannon fodder because you are so successful and rich and you take from everyone right? Ya...a pile of rot but SOD, Mr. Spackman, Daniel and Eki seem to think you Yanks are the enemy of peace and progress everywhere along with their Jewish stooges.

I guess using logic and pointing out the double standard is a waste of time...their minds are made up that nothing Israel does is right. Of course...so as you have pointed out Isreal is still there. My argument for any of their overzealous attacks on Gaza is always tempered by the fact that Israel didn't start this and when given a chance has always found a way to make peace with an entity that was committed to it. That said...they cant afford to every lose a war. Not many nations live with a loaded gun cocked and pointed at their heads every day in this manner....

[steve_spackman]

Bravo Fiero. Of course you do realize that Americans have no right to defend themselves in the eyes of their detractors. You Yanks are to be cannon fodder because you are so successful and rich and you take from everyone right? Ya...a pile of rot but SOD, Mr. Spackman, Daniel and Eki seem to think you Yanks are the enemy of peace and progress everywhere along with their Jewish stooges.

I guess using logic and pointing out the double standard is a waste of time...their minds are made up that nothing Israel does is right. Of course...so as you have pointed out Isreal is still there. My argument for any of their overzealous attacks on Gaza is always tempered by the fact that Israel didn't start this and when given a chance has always found a way to make peace with an entity that was committed to it. That said...they cant afford to every lose a war. Not many nations live with a loaded gun cocked and pointed at their heads every day in this manner....

You know of any americans who think that supporting Israel is bad for the US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBIzu4YvnE

[Mark in Oshawa]

well isnt Bush a thug?? Come on nearly the entire world think that Bush is a murdering, lying, racist thug...he invaded 2 countries and then put one of the leaders to death. He has helped in the killing of women and children in Iraq and you dont think he is a thug...

he tries to spread democracy, yet he has no clue what it means...its gun boat diplomacy at the end of the day

He isn't a racist. Prove he is with any concrete proof.

Invaded Afghanistan? Helped the people who there who wanted the Taliban out. You know..their support of Bin Laden and 9/11? That little issue of two buildings falling flat after terrorists flew airplanes into them? The UN sanctioned that little invasion by the way. Hardly a Thug's doing.

As for Iraq, bad idea and faulty intelligence that every western intelligence gatherer believed in at the time by the way. The war was prosecuted by Saddam's not complying with UN resolutions for open inspections of his war making capablitiy as he agreed to to end the first Gulf War. Think what you like about the invasion of Iraq but it was an extention of the first gulf war legally and many nations bought into the notion of getting rid of Saddam. You surely cannot argue you would want Saddam back? He only killed on average 25000 people a year keeping his hands on power there. Gassed his own citizens. Last time I looked, a few US soldiers have done dumb things like made prisioners walk around Naked in Abu Garab and were tried for it. Hardly the moral equivalency of ruling by fear and force in the way it is done in many Islamic dictatorships.

He also understands democracy very well. He was elected twice....and had to run for election as a governor before that twice. Last time I looked, Hamas browbeated the people there into "electing" them at gunpoint and fought a nasty war with the Fatah thugs who used to run Gaza. Bush again is not in the same league with those you purport to defend. That's ok though...you live with your delusions

Oh yes..gunboat diplomacy and lack of respect for Democracy? Explain why the only free elections in Iraq's last 50 years come about and the people elect a government that actually has issue with Bush being there. Do you see the US troops being turned on that government? No....they are now at a point where Iraq has settled to a point that the governement ELECTED by the Iraqi people (again..first in 50 plus years) that finds disfavour at times with Bush will rule its land and the Americans are looking to be out of there in the next year or two. Obama no doubt will get credit for this but in the end, the US will only have a token presence there likely in the future.

Hardly the actions of a thug and dictator. By putting Bush in the same basket with a Hitler, Stalin or even Saddam Hussein is to minimize and trivialize the truly evil acts THEY gave the human species. Spare me your nonsense....

[Daniel]

AS for you Eki, you state if you didn't argue for Hamas, then who would? Simple Eki...quit defending people who have in their charter of what they are the goal of wiping a soverign nation OFF THE MAP and their people. They just don't want Israel, they want to kill all the Jew's in it. You want to lie in bed with them?

Lets just think about that though.

Why do they hate Israel so much?
Didn't the people in the IRA want to kill as many English as they could? What happened to that?

With these sort of organisations it's all a load of hot air and hatred because the average person on the ground is pissed off at their living conditions or the opression.

Mark my words. If Israel give the Palestinians the room they need and quit stifling the Gazan economy then people would be content and happy in their lives and there'd be no need or apetite for launching misiles into Israel in fact people would be pretty unhappy if someone were to go poking the big bad bear.

How would you feel if you saw a fellow Canadian setting up missiles to fire at the US and possibly start a war? If you're happy and content and don't want your life to change you'd probably beat the crap out of him. If the US had a blockade in place on your country and was stifling your people you might feel differently.

For peace to happen both sides need to come to the table and stop the petty playground bickering. Israel needs to lift the blockade unconditionally and Hamas has to formally disarm and stop rocket launches. There will still be suicide bombings and similar from more extremist groups who would prefer all out war but Israel will have to accept that the situation will not change overnight when you are the agressor. The IRA disarmed, but only after the British made big concessions and this will be no different.

I think the first step should be a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza and Israel to cool things down and hopefully stop the rocket attacks and get supplies flowing into Gaza.

Thankfully the US and UK have seen that there is no millitary solution to problems sometimes (See Vietnam) and is working more towards giving control back control to Iraq rather than attempting to batter them into submission as they tried to in Vietnam with little or no success. Israel may come around eventually.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You know of any americans who think that supporting Israel is bad for the US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBIzu4YvnE


Of course there are Americans who don't want the US to defend Israel. Under a free nation with democratic rights they are entitled to that opinion. I think they are wrong but they can think that way...

Try disagreeing that Israel SHOULD be defended in some Arab nation. Do it in a vocal manner in a forum where people can hear you....then wait for a knock on the door as you are taken away for "reeducation" or worse....

[steve_spackman]

He isn't a racist. Prove he is with any concrete proof.

Invaded Afghanistan? Helped the people who there who wanted the Taliban out. You know..their support of Bin Laden and 9/11? That little issue of two buildings falling flat after terrorists flew airplanes into them? The UN sanctioned that little invasion by the way. Hardly a Thug's doing.

As for Iraq, bad idea and faulty intelligence that every western intelligence gatherer believed in at the time by the way. The war was prosecuted by Saddam's not complying with UN resolutions for open inspections of his war making capablitiy as he agreed to to end the first Gulf War. Think what you like about the invasion of Iraq but it was an extention of the first gulf war legally and many nations bought into the notion of getting rid of Saddam. You surely cannot argue you would want Saddam back? He only killed on average 25000 people a year keeping his hands on power there. Gassed his own citizens. Last time I looked, a few US soldiers have done dumb things like made prisioners walk around Naked in Abu Garab and were tried for it. Hardly the moral equivalency of ruling by fear and force in the way it is done in many Islamic dictatorships.

He also understands democracy very well. He was elected twice....and had to run for election as a governor before that twice. Last time I looked, Hamas browbeated the people there into "electing" them at gunpoint and fought a nasty war with the Fatah thugs who used to run Gaza. Bush again is not in the same league with those you purport to defend. That's ok though...you live with your delusions

Oh yes..gunboat diplomacy and lack of respect for Democracy? Explain why the only free elections in Iraq's last 50 years come about and the people elect a government that actually has issue with Bush being there. Do you see the US troops being turned on that government? No....they are now at a point where Iraq has settled to a point that the governement ELECTED by the Iraqi people (again..first in 50 plus years) that finds disfavour at times with Bush will rule its land and the Americans are looking to be out of there in the next year or two. Obama no doubt will get credit for this but in the end, the US will only have a token presence there likely in the future.

Hardly the actions of a thug and dictator. By putting Bush in the same basket with a Hitler, Stalin or even Saddam Hussein is to minimize and trivialize the truly evil acts THEY gave the human species. Spare me your nonsense....

i respect your views, but you dont respect mine or anyone elses who doesnt agree with you..

[Eki]

Invaded Afghanistan? Helped the people who there who wanted the Taliban out.....
Yes, just like Stalin in 1939 tried to help the Finns who wanted the Finnish right wing regime out.



As for Iraq, bad idea and faulty intelligence that every western intelligence gatherer believed in at the time by the way.
They say about scams that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. The same goes with the opposite. If it sounds too bad to be true, it probably isn't. Bush's regime tried so badly to make Saddam look like some kind of a monster that it just wasn't believable.

[Eki]

AS for you Eki, you state if you didn't argue for Hamas, then who would? Simple Eki...quit defending people who have in their charter of what they are the goal of wiping a soverign nation OFF THE MAP and their people.
I don't know about Canada, but in Finland everybody is entitled to have a defense attorney, even criminals. Beside, I don't think Israel should have been founded in the first place (at least not in the Middle East), so IMO they should at least back off a little and be happy with what they got.

[BDunnell]

As for Iraq, bad idea and faulty intelligence that every western intelligence gatherer believed in at the time by the way.

Wrong. Surely we have heard instances of the doubts that some expressed about that intelligence? Therefore, saying that 'every western intelligence-gatherer' believed in the intelligence about WMD is incorrect.

I note that this is turning into another 'US against them' discussion, for want of a better phrase, with some of those supporting US policy deciding that everyone who expresses criticism of the policies of one particular US government is somehow anti-American. This is, with all due respect, a bit of a leap.

[Hondo]

There are a lot of Americans that believe we shouldn't defend anyone. It would have been hard to get the USA into WW II without Pearl Harbor. I think if a country wants to buy weapons from us fine, should we defend the with boots on the ground? No.

As far as Iraq goes, ultimately it will come out that it was oil related not so much for the US, but for Europe and Russia and to prevent China from becoming Saddam's new oil buddy and ally.

[SOD]

First off SOD you are not going to get a true view of what Gitmo is like from a man who was in there in the first place. He wasn't some innocent taken off the street minding his own business, he was a probable terrorist in a war zone. Find me a prisoner who says good things about his captors and I will tell you it wouldn't be some Arab jail and prisoner for sure.

Hell Assad wiped out a whole town of 20000 when it got uppity in the 80's and no one talks about the Syria human rights abuses on this board. How about condemning Iran's treatment of dissidents? Or we can talk about the Taliban suborning the northern province of Pakistan and turning it into a terrorist breeding ground. No...the only evil most of you guys are willing to see is Israel prosecuting a war against Hamas, which the last time I looked was not even hiding their desire to wipe out Israel and finish what Hitler started. Nice people to defend SOD.....


well Mark, you just contradicted yourself with the first paragraph. How do you feel about the USA sending 'terroist suspects' (and a Canadian citizen) to Syria to be tortured, in light of what you just posted.

the only country wiped off the map is Palestine. did you notice? as for the last sentence, man you really have no clue. Hamas did agree to the Arab peace accord, which hardly calls for Israel to be wiped out :rolleyes:

[steve_spackman]

He isn't a racist. Prove he is with any concrete proof.

Invaded Afghanistan? Helped the people who there who wanted the Taliban out. You know..their support of Bin Laden and 9/11? That little issue of two buildings falling flat after terrorists flew airplanes into them? The UN sanctioned that little invasion by the way. Hardly a Thug's doing.

As for Iraq, bad idea and faulty intelligence that every western intelligence gatherer believed in at the time by the way. The war was prosecuted by Saddam's not complying with UN resolutions for open inspections of his war making capablitiy as he agreed to to end the first Gulf War. Think what you like about the invasion of Iraq but it was an extention of the first gulf war legally and many nations bought into the notion of getting rid of Saddam. You surely cannot argue you would want Saddam back? He only killed on average 25000 people a year keeping his hands on power there. Gassed his own citizens. Last time I looked, a few US soldiers have done dumb things like made prisioners walk around Naked in Abu Garab and were tried for it. Hardly the moral equivalency of ruling by fear and force in the way it is done in many Islamic dictatorships.

He also understands democracy very well. He was elected twice....and had to run for election as a governor before that twice. Last time I looked, Hamas browbeated the people there into "electing" them at gunpoint and fought a nasty war with the Fatah thugs who used to run Gaza. Bush again is not in the same league with those you purport to defend. That's ok though...you live with your delusions

Oh yes..gunboat diplomacy and lack of respect for Democracy? Explain why the only free elections in Iraq's last 50 years come about and the people elect a government that actually has issue with Bush being there. Do you see the US troops being turned on that government? No....they are now at a point where Iraq has settled to a point that the governement ELECTED by the Iraqi people (again..first in 50 plus years) that finds disfavour at times with Bush will rule its land and the Americans are looking to be out of there in the next year or two. Obama no doubt will get credit for this but in the end, the US will only have a token presence there likely in the future.

Hardly the actions of a thug and dictator. By putting Bush in the same basket with a Hitler, Stalin or even Saddam Hussein is to minimize and trivialize the truly evil acts THEY gave the human species. Spare me your nonsense....

the Iraqi governement was put in place by the US as with the government in afghanistan..therefore its a puppet governemnt at best. Its the thing of putting people in power who will bow down to every 'whim' the US government has....

[Hondo]

How many think they, the quaility of their lives, and the well being of their countries would be better if the US quit "meddling" and brought all it's troops home?

How many feel their country is completely safe and able to defend itself without aid, from anybody?

[steve_spackman]

How many think they, the quaility of their lives, and the well being of their countries would be better if the US quit "meddling" and brought all it's troops home?

How many feel their country is completely safe and able to defend itself without aid, from anybody?

im sure that a few countries would like to see the US halt the meddling they do in other parts of the world, but then this is the fact that the US sees itself as a empire and the truth is that the US empire is going the way of the british and roman empires...down the pan, time for someone else to run the show

on the flip side the US does do some good things out there, like gives aid to countries who are in need of dire help and so forth.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lets just think about that though.

Why do they hate Israel so much?
Didn't the people in the IRA want to kill as many English as they could? What happened to that?.

The IRA wanted the UK out of Ulster. Genocide wasn't their mission statment. Apples to Oranges (pun there not intended). The IRA went away because the Catholics in Ulster at some point found the strength to repudiate the methods of the IRA and they were marginizlized to the point where they had little or NO support.


With these sort of organisations it's all a load of hot air and hatred because the average person on the ground is pissed off at their living conditions or the opression.

Mark my words. If Israel give the Palestinians the room they need and quit stifling the Gazan economy then people would be content and happy in their lives and there'd be no need or apetite for launching misiles into Israel in fact people would be pretty unhappy if someone were to go poking the big bad bear..

Remember the Oslo accord? Arafat got 90% of what he wanted. All he had to do was guarntee that he would work hard to protect Israel from suicide bombers and agree to not keep prosecuting any violent acts towards Israel. He couldn't do it and didn't agree to all the provisions in the end. Israel gave them a pretty good deal? The best deal? No...the world is made up of gray areas and what you can get with what you have. AS for stifing the economy of Gaza, Egypt wont trade or deal with them either and they are not lobbing rockets at the Egyptians. Israel wont trade with them because the people in Gaza bent on continuing this war against the Jewish state use the open border to send suicide bombers in to Israel proper. The authorities of Gaza, whether Fatah or Hamas have done little or encouraged the actual attacks on Israel. You cannot make peace with an entity nor trade with it if they continue to ignore your security in return.


How would you feel if you saw a fellow Canadian setting up missiles to fire at the US and possibly start a war? If you're happy and content and don't want your life to change you'd probably beat the crap out of him. If the US had a blockade in place on your country and was stifling your people you might feel differently..

The US and Canada disagree all the time. We find issues we cannot agree with but all disputes are either handled through the court or negotiated treaties. There is no arms on our border...never really was save a few ugly moments in the 19th century where we Canadians were more than ready to fight if we had to. That said, this relationship has matured through mutual trust, mutual goals and a dedication by both nations to create a better relationship though negotiation, rule of law and respect for human rights. Take all of this and you don't find the same dedication on the part of any of the Palestianian groups bent on fighting a war they cannot win. A Canadian with such a hatred of the US may exist, but he is not so dumb to fight a war he cannot win. I guess Hamas hasn't gotten the memo. This just in...you cant win this fight so take your dispute the courts or negotiate something in a peaceable fashion. Novel concept....hasn't really been tried apparently in the Middle East because there is to much lust for revenge and writing old wrongs. Sorta like the Balkans.....


For peace to happen both sides need to come to the table and stop the petty playground bickering. Israel needs to lift the blockade unconditionally and Hamas has to formally disarm and stop rocket launches. There will still be suicide bombings and similar from more extremist groups who would prefer all out war but Israel will have to accept that the situation will not change overnight when you are the agressor. The IRA disarmed, but only after the British made big concessions and this will be no different..

Israel will lift the blockade in time if Hamas demonstrates some real progress towards peace and respecting the border between Gaza and Israel and protecting incursions of Israeli territory. Israel is not the only aggressor...just they are more effiecient at winning the battles. They wont stand for their personal security being threatened. You throw away this dismissively saying these things will happen. No....they shouldn't if Hamas really was trying to stop these groups. Believe me..if these groups were going after Hamas with the same zeal they go after Israel, there would be a stop. Hamas hasn't shown any signs of doing anything but encouraging attacks on Israel.

The IRA disarmed because their political ally Sinn Fein finally was able to negotiate with some legitimacy because they disowned any relationship with the IRA in a meaningful fashion and the people of Ulster wouldn't support the IRA in any way, shape or form. The IRA didn't get peace in Ulster, Sinn Fein and saner heads prevailing on both sides did it. The IRA was marginalized....which you cannot say about Hamas.


I think the first step should be a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza and Israel to cool things down and hopefully stop the rocket attacks and get supplies flowing into Gaza..
Peacekeeping? UN soldiers were in between Hezbollah and the Israelis two years ago and they were just speed bumps when the Israeli's moved in. They had no authority to do anything but say "stop...or I will say stop again". They did nothing or could do nothing to stop Hezbollah dropping Katushya's on northern Israeli towns and they didn't stop any border incursions by Hezbollah gurellias. UN peacekeeping is dependent on both sides really wanting peace. Sorry..Hamas doesn't seem to want peace, and Israel wont lay down arms until they are sure they see some genuine progress. Hamas hasn't really given them that when they put rocket launchers in Gaza schoolyards...


Thankfully the US and UK have seen that there is no millitary solution to problems sometimes (See Vietnam) and is working more towards giving control back control to Iraq rather than attempting to batter them into submission as they tried to in Vietnam with little or no success. Israel may come around eventually.

Daniel, they have always been trying to give Iraq back. Most Americans wanted the troops home 4 minutes after the statue of Saddam fell. Americans also though have some understanding of the belief of "you break it, you bought it" and have tried to fix what was broken. IT would have been done long ago if Islamic hot heads didn't spend most of their free time bombing and trying to kill Americans. The Yanks don't do the Imperial ambition thing very well. They never have had an empire built on military conquest and most of the nations they have fought with in time with the same help have found themselves helped by the Americans. You dont' see no real serious anti-American animosity in Japan or Germany now do you?

[BDunnell]

The IRA wanted the UK out of Ulster. Genocide wasn't their mission statment. Apples to Oranges (pun there not intended). The IRA went away because the Catholics in Ulster at some point found the strength to repudiate the methods of the IRA and they were marginizlized to the point where they had little or NO support.

And because things reached a point where all sides agreed to negotiate. With hindsight, they could have done so much earlier had the will existed on the part of all involved.

[Mark in Oshawa]

im sure that a few countries would like to see the US halt the meddling they do in other parts of the world, but then this is the fact that the US sees itself as a empire and the truth is that the US empire is going the way of the british and roman empires...down the pan, time for someone else to run the show

on the flip side the US does do some good things out there, like gives aid to countries who are in need of dire help and so forth.


Show me true evidence of an American empire? Americans as a whole actually would rather not bother with anything that happens outside their borders but past history has taught them sooner or later they will be dragged into it.

Damned right they give aid too. Bush has been very quietly giving a lot more humantarian help to the people suffering from AIDS in Africa with little or no fanfare but talk to someone like Bono or Bob Geldof and they will defend Bush's charity in Africa. Hardly the mark of a dictator bent on creating an empire.....

American aid was spurned after the Tsunami in Indonesia because the Muslims in Indonesia figured American charity was a threat. When you are dealing with authorities who would rather turn down help with 100000 dead in the country, you realize the battle of wills America must deal with on a daily basis. Intelligent leaders don't use their people as pawns in a greater political game in this fashion....

[Mark in Oshawa]

And because things reached a point where all sides agreed to negotiate. With hindsight, they could have done so much earlier had the will existed on the part of all involved.

It only took a few centuries.....and you have it spot on. Both sides have to be really willing to sit and negotiate meaningfully. Israel has found a way to get along with Jordan and Egypt in a equitable manner. It isn't a perfect relationship but there is good will on both sides and a lot more behind the scenes than people realize. There is a sharing of common goals. When that happens...deals can be realized. Show me where both sides are serious in the Israeli/Hamas-Fatah conflict? Fatah is making noises of negotiation and I think in time maybe some progress may be found. Hamas is still bent on a PR war to make Israel look like butchers. If it means they put rocket launchers in school yards to entice the Israeli's to attack..so be it.

[steve_spackman]

Show me true evidence of an American empire? Americans as a whole actually would rather not bother with anything that happens outside their borders but past history has taught them sooner or later they will be dragged into it.

Damned right they give aid too. Bush has been very quietly giving a lot more humantarian help to the people suffering from AIDS in Africa with little or no fanfare but talk to someone like Bono or Bob Geldof and they will defend Bush's charity in Africa. Hardly the mark of a dictator bent on creating an empire.....

American aid was spurned after the Tsunami in Indonesia because the Muslims in Indonesia figured American charity was a threat. When you are dealing with authorities who would rather turn down help with 100000 dead in the country, you realize the battle of wills America must deal with on a daily basis. Intelligent leaders don't use their people as pawns in a greater political game in this fashion....

trying to explain things to you is like trying to get blood out of a stone...
you are from what i see a bit too up uncle sams arse to see other peoples point of view

[steve_spackman]

It only took a few centuries.....and you have it spot on. Both sides have to be really willing to sit and negotiate meaningfully. Israel has found a way to get along with Jordan and Egypt in a equitable manner. It isn't a perfect relationship but there is good will on both sides and a lot more behind the scenes than people realize. There is a sharing of common goals. When that happens...deals can be realized. Show me where both sides are serious in the Israeli/Hamas-Fatah conflict? Fatah is making noises of negotiation and I think in time maybe some progress may be found. Hamas is still bent on a PR war to make Israel look like butchers. If it means they put rocket launchers in school yards to entice the Israeli's to attack..so be it.

so you think its ok for young kids in Gaza to be killed by Israel??

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't think anyone's kids being killed is "ok" but I also know that this started by Israeli kids dodging rockets lodged by those rocket launchers in Gaza schoolyards. Kids on both sides are being killed in a war that was started once again because Hamas couldn't be bothered to take the time and have the guts to face the reality that negotiating a peaceful relationship with Israel would take time and they didn't want to take that time. Hamas isn't interested in peace. If they were, this current fight isn't happening. Sorry...it just isnt'.

I deplore causualties on both sides but I look at the root cause of the immediate conflict and I cant fault Israel for fighting back. I may not like how they do it but I cant entirely see where any nation state in the same situation wouldn't do the same or worse. They were attacked in November and December before they decided to strike back.

[Easy Drifter]

Eki in post 456 states Israel should never have been founded, at least in the Middle East.
That pretty well states his position. That also means he repuditates the United Nations who founded Israel. That should equate that the United Nations by that reasoning has no place in this current dispute nor do all their resolutions against Israel have any bearing on the subject since they were wrong to create Israel.

I am not sure where Israel should have been located if not where it is. Perhaps Finland?

[steve_spackman]

I deplore causualties on both sides .[/quote]

as do i

[steve_spackman]

Eki in post 456 states Israel should never have been founded, at least in the Middle East.
That pretty well states his position. That also means he repuditates the United Nations who founded Israel. That should equate that the United Nations by that reasoning has no place in this current dispute nor do all their resolutions against Israel have any bearing on the subject since they were wrong to create Israel.

Israel has ignored all resolutions/ mandates handed down by the UN

[steve_spackman]

.

I deplore causualties on both sides

as do i

[Easy Drifter]

As did Saddams Iraq, and does North Korea and Iran.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Israel has ignored all resolutions/ mandates handed down by the UN

Yup....but if they listened to the UN on most of them they would have been defenceless. If the UN could GUARNTEE Israel from any future attacks from Arab nations, then they would be really stupid NOT to follow the UN mandates and resolutions. The trick of course is most of the mandates/resolutions are non-binding for one, and that the UN would stand around and pass meaningless resolutions while Israel got wiped out. The UN has also had panels and commisions of "human rights" chaired by nations such as Saudi Arabia and Libya who have drawn up all these resolutions designed to keep Israel in a bad position.

If you really want to be credible, you have to realize that no nation will give up its sovreign right to defend itself to the UN. The UN is a toothless tiger that has often aggravated situations rather than helped.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As did Saddams Iraq, and does North Korea and Iran.

Drifter...but they can ignore UN resolutions because they are not the mean people the Israelis are apparently.

I think UN resolutions and dictates are often a panacea for nations who really don't want to do anything meaningful.

The UN's disgraceful lack of action on Darfur states all we need to know about the effectiveness of the UN. (for those not aware, Darfur is an "internal" affair of Sudan and not of the UN's mandate).

[Mark in Oshawa]

geeze..when you get down to it...lets blame it all on the UN!!!! Feckless w@nkers....

[Easy Drifter]

My main point, Steve, was that Eki has taken the same stand as Hamas, that Israel has no right to exist. It does subjagate his position and posts on this subject.

[steve_spackman]

Yup....but if they listened to the UN on most of them they would have been defenceless. If the UN could GUARNTEE Israel from any future attacks from Arab nations, then they would be really stupid NOT to follow the UN mandates and resolutions. The trick of course is most of the mandates/resolutions are non-binding for one, and that the UN would stand around and pass meaningless resolutions while Israel got wiped out. The UN has also had panels and commisions of "human rights" chaired by nations such as Saudi Arabia and Libya who have drawn up all these resolutions designed to keep Israel in a bad position.

If you really want to be credible, you have to realize that no nation will give up its sovreign right to defend itself to the UN. The UN is a toothless tiger that has often aggravated situations rather than helped.

You are never going to see it from the other sides view are you??? if you put everyone down on the table, then you will see that they are all as bad as eachother...

[steve_spackman]

My main point, Steve, was that Eki has taken the same stand as Hamas, that Israel has no right to exist.

those words have not come out of my mouth

[steve_spackman]

geeze..when you get down to it...lets blame it all on the UN!!!! Feckless w@nkers....

so are you for or against the UN?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes Steve, but unlike the UN, the US isn't a toothless tiger and we can argue all day about the effectiveness of their foreign policy. I wont disagree with you on some of it either but at least the US at times has stood up for something the UN paid lip service too. The UN's sanctions against Iraq were only to have meaning if the US enforced them. That is the legal pretence that the US could hold up in court for their invasion of Iraq.

You can yap about the UN all you like but in the end, nationstates will do what is in their best interests always. Most nations, including the US do what happens to be good for more than just the selfish interests of the nation state because a greater good for all nations helps all nations. That said, on determining one's fate as a nation and defending your borders, no nation would depend on the UN to do squat.

What is Israel is doing isn't pretty but can be justified based on a threat they are facing and living with every day and is obvious in its intent. They are not attacking Egypt or Jordan now are they? They are not attacking the West Bank so it isn't an anti-Palestinian action really. It is a war with Hamas, who has made no bones about their goal of a Jew free Middle East....

[steve_spackman]

Yes Steve, but unlike the UN, the US isn't a toothless tiger and we can argue all day about the effectiveness of their foreign policy. I wont disagree with you on some of it either but at least the US at times has stood up for something the UN paid lip service too. The UN's sanctions against Iraq were only to have meaning if the US enforced them. That is the legal pretence that the US could hold up in court for their invasion of Iraq.

You can yap about the UN all you like but in the end, nationstates will do what is in their best interests always. Most nations, including the US do what happens to be good for more than just the selfish interests of the nation state because a greater good for all nations helps all nations. That said, on determining one's fate as a nation and defending your borders, no nation would depend on the UN to do squat.

What is Israel is doing isn't pretty but can be justified based on a threat they are facing and living with every day and is obvious in its intent. They are not attacking Egypt or Jordan now are they? They are not attacking the West Bank so it isn't an anti-Palestinian action really. It is a war with Hamas, who has made no bones about their goal of a Jew free Middle East....

praps move the state of Israel to canada somewhere?

[Mark in Oshawa]

so are you for or against the UN?

If we are to have a UN, I would rather have the one we have than none......but at the same time I would want no international body to dictate to my nation state what it should do or not do. We all live in different nations for a reason. The UN should protect the rights of people and do what they can to forestall and stop wars, but they really cannot have any true power without nation states losing their sovereign right to defend their borders. This just wont happen.

The UN is useful for airing grievances and scolding nations that wont behave but lets drop the pretence they have power. They are useful in co-ordinating aid and peacekeeping if both parties are willing to accept UN authority but that concept pretty much died in the Balkans in the 90's.

My country has done more to support the UN doing things rather than just talking over the years so I am very much aware of the UN and their failings and accomplishments. I think the UN would have a lot more moral authority if they didn't allow nations such as Zimbabwe to have a chair on a human rights committee...

[Mark in Oshawa]

praps move the state of Israel to canada somewhere?


If the Israeli's wanted to pick up their whole nation and become Canadian...sure. I don't they would like our winters...lol

Seriously though, the reason Israel is where it is because it was their land in biblical times and was until they were pushed out by the Romans and Ottoman empire. Even with that, they always held some presence there and it was a logical place to place them. If the Arab nations were willing to realize that giving up the worst piece of land in the area (about the only land in the area that isnt' floating in oil!) and sharing it with the Jew's, then things could work. IT isn't like they were beamed into Israel from outer space. They were there for years and moved in with greater numbers when the pogroms of the Russians and the Nazi's efforts made the Jews realize they needed their own nation to protect themselves. Anti-Semitic movements in Europe created this mess....

[Hondo]

praps move the state of Israel to canada somewhere?


Better yet, move the Palestinians or Israel to Somalia.

[steve_spackman]

If the Israeli's wanted to pick up their whole nation and become Canadian...sure. I don't they would like our winters...lol

Seriously though, the reason Israel is where it is because it was their land in biblical times and was until they were pushed out by the Romans and Ottoman empire. Even with that, they always held some presence there and it was a logical place to place them. If the Arab nations were willing to realize that giving up the worst piece of land in the area (about the only land in the area that isnt' floating in oil!) and sharing it with the Jew's, then things could work. IT isn't like they were beamed into Israel from outer space. They were there for years and moved in with greater numbers when the pogroms of the Russians and the Nazi's efforts made the Jews realize they needed their own nation to protect themselves. Anti-Semitic movements in Europe created this mess....

a people claiming decent from the ancient Israelites, of the old testament or who practise judaism. This was during the exile from the land of Israel (597-538bc) folowing the babylonian conquest, where the religion developed from a sacrificial temple cult into a elaborate code for daily living, which actually became the basis for communal identity.

[Roamy]

Better yet, move the Palestinians or Israel to Somalia.

i will vote for this one.