Why the past is relevent and how I feel about the IRL.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In another thread, I was once again told to get over my distrust for Tony and what has happened. At the risk of opening up a big ole can of worms and getting slapped by Starter, let me state my feelings on the state of OW racing today and why my feelings from the last 13 years still form my opinion.


First off, I loved Indycar racing in the late 80's and early 90's. LOVED it. It was my favourite time to be a race fan. I was hardly ever watching NASCAR at that time, and I was a regular at Toronto as a volunteer. I knew all the drivers, all the cars, loved the variety and loved how 15 guys were capable of winning at a lot of venues. There was about a third ovals, a third street and a third road courses. The Indy 500 was still the crown jewel and 50 cars tried to get into 33 spots.

Then 94 came along and Tony started making noises about the IRL. He wanted more say. He wanted more control. He wanted less street racing or NONE. He wanted American drivers to get a chance to come from Midgets and Sprints. IN short.....he didn't like things the way they were. TV contracts that paid the series and 28 car fields were part of this world by the way. Full grandstands were also a regular thing you saw too. But it didn't suit Tony so he created the IRL and for a time it looked like the two sides might co-exist in some sort of cosmic way but with the pull of the 500 for advertisers and those who knew little about racing but had lots of ad revenue to dispose of, it was a war the CART and CCWS couldn't win.

So now what do we have? Not what we had. We all have our opinions and most of you know mine. That said, let me say this in defense of Tony ( I know most of you find this hard to believe):

Tony George isn't a bad guy. I don't even think he is a dumb guy either. I have defended him more often than some people might think. For better or worse he is "our leader" so to speak.

That said, my above criticisms might have you believe I hated the man. For a time I did. Then I grew older and realized this was just business for him. It is his business and he grew up to run the largest and most historic racing venue in North America, if not the world. It makes lots of money and it has allowed him to have money to make mistakes. The IRL/CART war being the chief one of them. He was the catalyst but I don't hold just him responsible. Many people in CART didn't take this man seriously and I think that to an extent was a mistake. I don't hate what he did now. I understand most of his motives, I just know that I think he was wrong on a lot because he didn't understand why things were happening in the way they were happening.

I never really get the feeling Tony understands racing. I felt that way back when he was racing an Indy Lights car for AJ Foyt as a hobby and he used to come to Toronto and sit at the back of the grid waiting for the race to start. He always struck me as someone who was born into racing through his family and he was coming from a position of never understanding the guy clawing and scratching to race. To Tony, this was just something to do because he could afford to. When he makes decisions that seem strange to me, I remember the guy unhappy at the back of the grid in Toronto. I don't really think he understands the sport in a manner that a Carl Haas or Roger Penske does.

I may never love the man...but I wont hate him. I will just be a passionate race fan who will always wonder where we would be today if Tony found a way to make peace with CART without creating the IRL. I cant have that so the least I can hope for is a way for this man who is now in control of the sport I love to make decisions that better the sport. I don't need him to be a hands on leader, I need him to hire people to make the right decisions. It think some of this is happening now (with Brian Barnhart and Cotman around I am feeling better by the on track operations).......I just hope it isn't too late.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I must also say before anyone posts. Don't rehash things. Tell me where you think we should go. I had to state my piece and feelings after being off the board for almost a year. Don't get into senseless arguments. We are going to agree to disagree on this thread but I don't want Starter killing it. Just dont' patronize me with this crap about letting it go. Explain where your love of the sport comes from and where you think it should go. We are all fans of the Indycar format but most of us want it to be a big deal. Bigger than it is now.....and That isnt' too much to ask for now is it?

[Easy Drifter]

I agree with Mark (he and I usually agree) and Starter. I have had shots taken at me because I take the position that rehashing the past is an exercise in futility. Learn from history yes. Refighting lost wars no.
I do not like TG but he has the ball now so he needs all the support we can give him in these tough times.
If he screws up we can critisize him. Maybe he will pay attention.
But going over and over the past is, in my opinion, counterproductive.

I have become frustrated at times and it has shown. If I upset anyone I apoligize.
I also, at times, have a rather strange sense of humour.

[Rex Monaco]

I'm here to talk about the future of the sport. And most of my posts and all of my passion is about how AOWR can be improved. And I beleive that after 12 years of mistakes on both sides of the split, there is lots of room for improvement.

The problem is that for some people, arguing about the split was at the very center of their fanaticsm (as in being a fan, not being a nut-case). Post-split, their split-era partisanship is making it very difficult for them to adjust to the unification-era.

This makes it difficult to have honest discussions on how to grow the sport, as they seem to view all criticism of TG and the IRL as a continuation of the split-era partisanship.

So yes, some people do need to get over it. And it's not just those who are constantly being told to get over it.

These people seem to think that the work was finished when TG finally wrestled control of AOWR. But some of us believe the real work has just begun and it's much too soon for anyone to be declaring victory.

Besides, who but a fanatic (as in nut cases, not fans) think they can actually win a nuclear war?

It's time for AOWR to rise up from the rubble that 12 years of war has created and regain the prestige that it once held in the world of motorsports.

But the history of motorsports and AOWR shows us that if the IRL fails to lead at this critical juncture, someone else will step up and take the lead from them.

[CCWS77]

The problem is that for some people, arguing about the split was at the very center of their fanaticsm (as in being a fan, not being a nut-case). Post-split, their split-era partisanship is making it very difficult for them to adjust to the unification-era.I don't fathom why a change in the politics of the racing sport should affect my opinion as a fan about what I like to see on the race track. I would submit you have that backwards. Those who change their opinions based on such are the ones who were mired in politics and grudges. Did you actually stand for something during the split or did you just happen to be on the side you were on?

That is the heart of the "get over it" sentiment. Assumptions that all opinions derive from the split itself and so should be healed with merger. Could someone have the same ideas before and after the split or that were not arrived at as an implication of it? Impossible! the politics of the split was all there was!

Unless those on the bandwagon become accepting of criticism and don't mind examining the past to find out what really works and doesn't, this will be a short trip to oblivion for a race series that refuses to improve itself.

[Rex Monaco]

I don't fathom why a change in the politics of the racing sport should affect my opinion as a fan about what I like to see on the race track. I would submit you have that backwards. Those who change their opinions based on such are the ones who were mired in politics and grudges. Did you actually stand for something during the split or did you just happen to be on the side you were on?

Some people are still debating the American Civil War, but I don't need to embrace the Confederates in order to hold to my opinion that states rights should be protected.

And I also don't need to declare my allegiance to a defunct series in order to argue for the changes that I think the current series needs to make for it's future survival.

This series will die or survive on what it does now. Not on the mistakes or the brilliance of what might have been done in the past.

I was watching AOWR before there was CART, IRL, or Champcar, and I will be watching it if and when the IRL is replaced by another series. My allegience is to AOWR, not to the short sighted political parties that want to control it.

[vintage]

I'm with Rex - it's the only show in the house, and TG is making an effort to both make money while trying to please the constituents. While the current schedule leaves something to be desired for many, it's a pretty good balance of oval, road and street courses. Let's hope the economy comes back quickly and we can all look forward to more improvement in the product and the chances for the drivers to make a living. Imagine how great it would be if not only Indy Car, but Indy Lights drivers could make a living (like in the two top US tintop series)!

2009 is starting out as a tough year, and due to the economic climate may turn into another year the we have to say "wait till next year". But let's hope that there will be further news (engine suppliers, etc.) that will give us all some things to look forward to!

Now if we could just get it put into the GM, Ford and Chrysler bail-outs that they had to make an engine for the IRL!

[MDS]

I'm one of the thousands of people affected by the split. Had the split not happened I would probably still be directly involved with racing today.

That said, I look at situation as essentially as a 12 year lockout. The general rule in sport lockouts is its a bunch of rich owners fighting with a bunch of rich players over a big pile of money. When the strike ends neither side gets what they wanted and the pile of money is smaller. Had anyone looked at the situation as a lockout by Tony George (Or if Tony George had looked at the situation as a labor dispute) and had been constantly trying to resolve the situation instead of thinking the niche was big enough for two league, the sport would have been in a much stronger place if the sport had unified in 2000 rather than 2008.

As it stands now George deserves the lion's share of the credit for where we are now. It's conceivable that the sport could surpass the level it was in the 1990s within a decade. Its also possible there will be a NASCAR race at the speedway in May within 10 years.

[downtowndeco]

I could try and debate each and every point (for the hundredth time) but I don't think there would be any point to it. Those who want to grouse about the past will, those who want to look to the future will do so. No one is going to change anyone elses mind about who did what to who at this point.

[SarahFan]

I could try and debate each and every point (for the hundredth time) but I don't think there would be any point to it. Those who want to grouse about the past will, those who want to look to the future will do so. No one is going to change anyone elses mind about who did what to who at this point.

your missing the point...

you are correct.....we all have our own interpretation of how the sport got to this point...

problem is you and a few others don't seem to be able to allow for honest evaluation and discussion of todays IRL

[Cart750hp]

I must also say before anyone posts. Don't rehash things. Tell me where you think we should go. I had to state my piece and feelings after being off the board for almost a year. Don't get into senseless arguments. We are going to agree to disagree on this thread but I don't want Starter killing it. Just dont' patronize me with this crap about letting it go. Explain where your love of the sport comes from and where you think it should go. We are all fans of the Indycar format but most of us want it to be a big deal. Bigger than it is now.....and That isnt' too much to ask for now is it?

Well, Mark, you and I and some guys here have accepted the fact that anyone involved with IndyCar back in the mid 90s were obviously guilty of letting Tony does his things and ignored the guy. It took both series to start getting on each others' nerves until things just fell apart on both sides. Nobody won; everyone lost in this game. ChampCar had their way of avoiding things but the past came back and bit them. Management and financial sponsorships fell badly causing everything to collapse. Funny part that if you were in 1998 and look forward to 2008-2009, would you ever think that TG would be the "man" for both series? Roger Penske would be crapping his pants off. The question is then: Why now all with Tony George? I think the answer to that is, "that's just now". If this series will fall apart again, somehow, another individual or even a company will take over. More than sports itself, it's totally a business. If you look at IRL right now, the only good choice we have is: Indy500. Nothing more. No solid foundation at all but since this is the only one we have, we don't have any choice other than watch the race. We can whine and complain or retrospect the old days but those days are gone. Where we at now is not caused by the past but the actions and occurence of today.

In all honest truth, I have finally put the anti IRL/anti CCWS arguments behind me since there is only one series now. Those bad days are gone too. But I think fans like us did take our interests of the racing than it was. I think the arguments and the hatred of the other series before was a part of why people put so much attention on these two than it is now. For me, I know there's an IRL race but.......who cares? I just want to know who wins. I believe some of us are just hard to adjust looking at one series that we all wanted but knowing something huge is missing. Look at this forum alone.

I have been watching closely and paying more attention to cycling than racing now. I will be at California Tour Stage 7-8, as a fan of course.

[CCWS77]

Some people are still debating the American Civil War, but I don't need to embrace the Confederates in order to hold to my opinion that states rights should be protected.

And I also don't need to declare my allegiance to a defunct series in order to argue for the changes that I think the current series needs to make for it's future survival.

What if everytime you even mention "states rights" it is immedietly dismissed as something you need to "get over" simply because that side of the civil war lost. That is where we are currently at.

What if I said I think the best approach is to have a rolling start on an oval and a standing start on a road course? I have ZERO expectations such a post would produce an actual discuss about the merits or benefits of the start. What I would expect is a chorus of people immediately telling me that Champ Car used a standing start in 2007 and champcar lost therefore I should take my proven failed idea and go away. That is fully what I expect and see happening. Such a shrill corus of groupthink will kill IndyCar in no time at all. It has nothing to do with the split.

[Rex Monaco]

What I would expect is a chorus of people immediately telling me that Champ Car used a standing start in 2007 and champcar lost therefore I should take my proven failed idea and go away.

It wouldn't be a chorus. But you are right in that one or two people would give you that response in this forum without even debating the idea on it's own merit.

[Rex Monaco]

problem is you and a few others don't seem to be able to allow for honest evaluation and discussion of todays IRL

Exactly. People can have honest critcisms of the IRL or TG while looking forward and they can offer ideas that CART or CC might have tried. And that doesn't mean they hate TG or agree 100% with everything that CART or CC did.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is interesting and I am glad for some of the answers that have popped up on this thread.

My criticisms of the racing is to hopefully point out where I think management is wrong or right and hopefully some might listen. I do know a lot of people in racing's important offices do actually monitor some of these forums and maybe...just maybe someone might note something they see here.

The past may be the past, but we can learn from it and to ignore it or to whitewash it is what is often done by short sighted people trying to not admit fault or responsibility; either by their actions or the actions of others they are trying to defend.

[bennybigb]

The IRL has been a failure, and will continue to be. I wish I could be more optimistic, but things will not change. IMO

[mike15]

Even-though I disliked the way Tony slithered his way into becoming the top man in AOWR, my dislike for the IRL was all about the product they put on the track. The car the engine and the tracks themselves.

That said, and now that the IRL is the only AOWR series, nothing has changed for me. I still don't like the product.

My gut feeling is that OWRS anticipated a downturn in the economy and saw an oportunity to get out of running a race series and minimizing their losses.

[Wilf]

The IRL has been a failure, and will continue to be. I wish I could be more optimistic, but things will not change. IMO

Thank God the failure is still standing, and will continue to do so, at least until 2013.

[Wilf]

Even-though I disliked the way Tony slithered his way into becoming the top man in AOWR, my dislike for the IRL was all about the product they put on the track. The car the engine and the tracks themselves.

That said, and now that the IRL is the only AOWR series, nothing has changed for me. I still don't like the product.

My gut feeling is that OWRS anticipated a downturn in the economy and saw an oportunity to get out of running a race series and minimizing their losses.

No doubt they had that much foresight, shorted the market and are richer than Bernie. Or maybe . . .

[downtowndeco]

: ). You're a funny guy Wilf.... : ).


No doubt they had that much foresight, shorted the market and are richer than Bernie. Or maybe . . .

[bennybigb]

Hey Wilf,

Yes the IRL is still around, but still the IRL has been a failure. Only TG's money keeps it afloat. Nobody cares about the IRL, and the Indy 500 has lost much of it's luster since the split. It will go the way of the WNBA or Major League Soccer, it really doesn't matter if those sports are around or not because nobody cares.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There will always be some form of open wheeled racing at Indy and in the US. Just who knows what form it may take in the next decade....

[indycool]

Agree, Mark. Predict the future? Nope. Predict what we hope for? Yes, and we all hope for something different. Regardless, one series is a start. And it goes from there.

[SarahFan]

Yes, and we all hope for something different. .

what do you will be different in the future?

[Easy Drifter]

Just hope it isn't the proposed USAC Gold Crown Cars.
The Dallara is drop dead beautiful compared to any design proposals I have seen.
Think a front engined car with a 70's style Chevron or Lola FA nose, low out rigger sidepods between the wheels and a the rest a current non winged sprint car body including the tail. :eek:

[indycool]

Ken, meaning this forum member would prefer this and another would prefer that, and so forth and DEGREE of preference is also involved. For example, I wish we had more Davey Hamiltons, Jimmy Kites and Sarah Fishers from the American short-track ranks but I don't complain about the field of drivers we have.

[SarahFan]

For example, I wish we had more Davey Hamiltons, Jimmy Kites and Sarah Fishers from the American short-track ranks but I don't complain about the field of drivers we have.

wasn't that part of the vision?

[Mark in Oshawa]

It was part of the vision Ken but even IC knows that didn't happen. If they start making the formula for Indy Cars front engined roadsters again, then the midget and sprint community has a chance. Midgets and Sprints are a throwback....and there isn't anything wrong with it but then the people in those series cant complain when Indy Cars evolved like F1 into rear/mid engined layouts with aero dependent bits and pieces.....

[vintage]

Arghhhh! Not front engine cars again! Maybe you should hope for flat head engines as well.

What the he** is the fricking attachment to front engine cars? If those USAC guys wanted to race at Indy, they would do what is necessary, like the folks running in Skip Barber, F2000, Star Mazda, Atlantics, FIL, and the myriad of rear engine open wheel series. There is pretty much NOBODY racing front engine open wheel cars in any of the series that do any road racing.

I imagine if they are as talented as they seem, they could drive a rear engine car without a problem.

Do people on the F-1 boards still talk about front engined cars?

[beachbum]

Arghhhh! Not front engine cars again! Maybe you should hope for flat head engines as well.

What the he** is the fricking attachment to front engine cars? Some people want to live the "glory" of the past. A "glory" that never existed in fact, but only in the memories of race fans who can't accept change.

[fan-veteran]

So what prescription should be, what kind of recipe? :) IMO - high speeds (more than 220 mph average, we have it), cheap cars (we almost have it), cool cars - we don't have it.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't see the fascination with front engined cars either.

Without changing the amount of power to grip, it probably won't make the racing any better.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see the fascination with front engined cars either.

Without changing the amount of power to grip, it probably won't make the racing any better.

You don't, but you don't live in the USA. The fans that Indy is NOT getting anymore are those same fans who watch NASCAR every week. Where is the engine in those? Duuuh......Where are the midget and sprint guys going now that they cant make that leap to Indycar? NASCAR.

It isn't that I am in love with Front engined roadsters, it is that the one thing Tony George may have had a point on was that his race was the final dream destination for the Tony Stewarts and Jeff Gordon's as kids and now those same kids who grew up with the local sprint and midget races are now having to compete with people who grew up driving Formula Fords for rides and unless they had great talent (Stewart and Gordon both have it)they wouldn't even get a sniff of a ride in an Indy feeder series, much less the real deal.

It is a clash of racing cultures that has created this dichotomy. The road racing culture is European based for the most part ( I grew up 20 minutes from Mosport so it is one I grew up with as well) and it is now dominating the IRL and it is in conflict with the racing culture of the US, which is based on Sprints, Midgets and Stock cars. Neither is superior to the other, but if you are running the IMS you have to be cognizant of the fact that your form of racing has alienated many of your potential fans when you keep bringing in cars and drivers who are not American.

This clash of racing cultures worked for a few decades after Sir Jack Brabham showed up in 61 with his Cooper but eventually it has created this rift.

If Indycar decided tomorrow to recreate the roadster, I suspect while it may alienate a few of us, they would get HUGE interest from the thousands of fans who flock to the ovals all over the midwest to watch the Outlaws and USAC Silver Crown cars, plus the stock car guys.

The majic of Indy isn't in the technology, but in the little guy competing with the big guys. The stories of the guys putting stock block engines in chassis and racing against the Roger Penske's of the world. Brabham showing up with a GREEN race car (you didn't do that in the 60's in America!) and it having just 2.5 liters was a David vs. Goliath story that appealed to the fans of that time. We don't have those stories really anymore and with technology that is likely lost but it is that flavour of those times that made Indy what it is.

Now we have one spec engine, one spec chassis really(and a rather unappealing design visually at that) and a bunch of drivers that Americans cant always identify with. You want to know why people keep toying with the front engined idea and that is your answer. I am pretty sure those days wont come back, but if the majic of Indy is to truly come back in any form, variety and more North American content would be a great plus to bring it back.

[Easy Drifter]

As usual I agree with Mark. I grew up on road racing and spent a good part of my life involved with it. 56 years as a matter of fact. I am 70.
But I also enjoy short track action. I do not enjoy NASCAR (As I call it) anymore.
The WOO packs them in all over NA. The Knoxville Nationals sell out every year. There are more spectators than the population of Knoxville. The entry is over 120 cars every year for 24 starting spots in the Sat. A Main. The first races to determine the final 24 start on Wed.
The Chili Bowl, an indoor midget race in Mid winter sells out weeks in advance and it starts on Wed. for a Sat. final. Again over a 100 cars enter usually including some of the WOO Sprint Car drivers in one off Midget appearances.
All summer long there are packed houses all over the US and Canada for short track action every Fri. and Sat. nights. Mostly variations on stock cars but lots of open wheel action too.
Most of those thousands of people could care less about road racing and do not know the names (or care) of the the IRL divers.
How many on this forum could name, say, 6 open wheel short track drivers.
I know some could but anybody on a forum like this is more than a casual fan.
I could easily, without going beyond the WOO drivers, let alone the All Stars or the Posse.
Don't get me wrong. I do not want to see the IRL die. It is just that if it does I expect TG to embrace USAC again. Never forget that until CART came along they were INDY and the main open wheel series.
USAC are testing the Gold Crown concept on road courses.

[indycool]

Technology......what was that front-engine Panoz ALMS car a few years ago.....it was a beast.

[DirtDevil5]

The IRL has been a failure, and will continue to be. I wish I could be more optimistic, but things will not change. IMO


IRL has not been a failure,, it has been a
TOTAL Failure,, every I500 winner since the
split has a big * next to it in my book.

nice to be back in a OW FORUM AGAIN!!
Long live the VISION...

[CCWS77]

Good points about the culture rift of racing. The sad thing which many seem to not be able to see, is CART was the only thing to bridge that gap. The creation of the IRL was the intention to burn that bridge and restore purity. Thats it. There is nothing else magical or forward thinking about it.

What direction is the IRL leadership actually going to take now I have no idea because they seem directionless, paralyzed by the fact that the CC culture they inherehted are at odds with the failed philosophy of its own creation. There are 3 paths, go road racing, go short ovals, copy CART and do a nice balance. The continued existence of NASCAR in north America makes the short oval option the most foolish of the 3. Statements that NASCAR is anything but the pinnacle of USAC ring hollow. Maybe if Tony wanted that type of racing he could have done us all a favor and invited NASCAR to the I500 instead of CART. That might have been annoying but it would have avoided the failue which was the creation of the IRL and this decade long feud - after which NASCAR is racing there anyway.

[indycool]

Amazing. So many forum members opined for "blendification" or one series. They now have it. They wanted road racing in the series. They now have it.

And they still complain. As my grandmother used to day, they'd complain with a full loaf of bread under their arm.

[ShiftingGears]

You don't, but you don't live in the USA. The fans that Indy is NOT getting anymore are those same fans who watch NASCAR every week. Where is the engine in those? Duuuh......Where are the midget and sprint guys going now that they cant make that leap to Indycar? NASCAR.

It isn't that I am in love with Front engined roadsters, it is that the one thing Tony George may have had a point on was that his race was the final dream destination for the Tony Stewarts and Jeff Gordon's as kids and now those same kids who grew up with the local sprint and midget races are now having to compete with people who grew up driving Formula Fords for rides and unless they had great talent (Stewart and Gordon both have it)they wouldn't even get a sniff of a ride in an Indy feeder series, much less the real deal.

It is a clash of racing cultures that has created this dichotomy. The road racing culture is European based for the most part ( I grew up 20 minutes from Mosport so it is one I grew up with as well) and it is now dominating the IRL and it is in conflict with the racing culture of the US, which is based on Sprints, Midgets and Stock cars. Neither is superior to the other, but if you are running the IMS you have to be cognizant of the fact that your form of racing has alienated many of your potential fans when you keep bringing in cars and drivers who are not American.

This clash of racing cultures worked for a few decades after Sir Jack Brabham showed up in 61 with his Cooper but eventually it has created this rift.

If Indycar decided tomorrow to recreate the roadster, I suspect while it may alienate a few of us, they would get HUGE interest from the thousands of fans who flock to the ovals all over the midwest to watch the Outlaws and USAC Silver Crown cars, plus the stock car guys.

The majic of Indy isn't in the technology, but in the little guy competing with the big guys. The stories of the guys putting stock block engines in chassis and racing against the Roger Penske's of the world. Brabham showing up with a GREEN race car (you didn't do that in the 60's in America!) and it having just 2.5 liters was a David vs. Goliath story that appealed to the fans of that time. We don't have those stories really anymore and with technology that is likely lost but it is that flavour of those times that made Indy what it is.

Now we have one spec engine, one spec chassis really(and a rather unappealing design visually at that) and a bunch of drivers that Americans cant always identify with. You want to know why people keep toying with the front engined idea and that is your answer. I am pretty sure those days wont come back, but if the majic of Indy is to truly come back in any form, variety and more North American content would be a great plus to bring it back.

While I agree that a radically different car would turn heads of those interested in motor racing, I don't think it would need to be a front-engined car. After all, Indy survived just fine after over 40 years of mid engined cars.

[champcarray]

As a racing fan in my mid-40s, I always considered Indy-style racing the pinnacle because it was all about speed. Rear-engined cars were faster than front-engined cars, so goodbye front-engined cards.

As a racing fan from Connecticut, home to Lime Rock Park, several short ovals, and a 6-hour drive to Watkins Glen, I have always been open to a mix of road and oval racing and an understanding that technologically sophisticated cars were faster than simpler cars. I suppose its somewhat like politics in this country: the Northeast and the West Coast are historically used to a mix of race track configurations and exotic cars while the Midwest and South lean toward oval-only and simpler cars.

Building on what CCWS77 said... I think that at its height, CART had enough appeal to attract speed and technology freaks across the board, but it couldn't win over the oval-only folks. The split showed that oval-only fans in general prefer simpler cars over speed, while the diverse-track crowd prefers more exotic cars and higher speeds. NASCAR isn't going anywhere, so IMHO the IRL doesn't have a choice for it's future: it's either mimic early-90s CART racing to appeal to the broadest possible spectrum of non-oval-only fans... or go out of business.

[indycool]

Well, what's it doing?

[Wilf]

As a racing fan in my mid-40s, I always considered Indy-style racing the pinnacle because it was all about speed. Rear-engined cars were faster than front-engined cars, so goodbye front-engined cards.

As a racing fan from Connecticut, home to Lime Rock Park, several short ovals, and a 6-hour drive to Watkins Glen, I have always been open to a mix of road and oval racing and an understanding that technologically sophisticated cars were faster than simpler cars. I suppose its somewhat like politics in this country: the Northeast and the West Coast are historically used to a mix of race track configurations and exotic cars while the Midwest and South lean toward oval-only and simpler cars.

Building on what CCWS77 said... I think that at its height, CART had enough appeal to attract speed and technology freaks across the board, but it couldn't win over the oval-only folks. The split showed that oval-only fans in general prefer simpler cars over speed, while the diverse-track crowd prefers more exotic cars and higher speeds. NASCAR isn't going anywhere, so IMHO the IRL doesn't have a choice for it's future: it's either mimic early-90s CART racing to appeal to the broadest possible spectrum of non-oval-only fans... or go out of business.

Unfortunately you didn't define a class of fan like me. I don't care what they drive or if they turn right and left, turn left only, or turn right only; what I want to see is competition between cars and drivers. I want to see passes for the lead occur on the track. If we could bottle what Tracy did at Road America in moving from the back to the front of the field, that would be magic. Maybe that is what has to happen, invert at least part of the field.

[downtowndeco]

I agree Wilf, I'm in the same boat. I've enjoyed IRL, CART & CCWS races over the years. Generally IRL events have had closer competition & finishes, while the road/street racing of CART & CCWS more often were follow the leader affairs, so I leaned towards the IRL formula, but all three series have had exciting races.


Unfortunately you didn't define a class of fan like me. I don't care what they drive or if they turn right and left, turn left only, or turn right only; what I want to see is competition between cars and drivers. I want to see passes for the lead occur on the track. If we could bottle what Tracy did at Road America in moving from the back to the front of the field, that would be magic. Maybe that is what has to happen, invert at least part of the field.

[indycool]

Same here.

[Alexamateo]

I know we are re-hashing some old ground here, but I saw this written on another forum and thought it interesting. Jack Brabham showed up in 1961, that is true, but something else happened in 1961 also. The track was finally completely paved, and all that remained of the original bricks was/is the 36 inch strip at the start/finish line. It allowed the rear engine cars with their smaller lighter suspension pieces to compete without being pounded to pieces.

In hindsight, I also think the Hulmans were awfully selective with the evolution of technology. Rear-engine and aero cars stay, but turbines are banned, what was up with that? Anyway, the disconnect happened then and the ladder was broken for what most who race in the US race. In the US, most who race run dirt ovals.

Some stats:



In the USA, slightly over 200,000 people are engaged in competitive "circuit"
motorsports (excluding drag and land speed racing). About 185,000 of them are engaged in oval track racing, most on short ovals. (numbers from both National Speedway Directory and Speedway Illustrated magazine).

In this country, dirt ovals outnumber paved ovals 4 to 1; of the approximately 1,000 oval tracks in the country, about 800 are dirt, about 200 are paved. If you want the exact numbers, pick up a National Speedway Directory; the exact numbers fluctuate a tad year to year. Oval tracks outnumber road courses about 13 to 1. There are approximately 75 active road courses (club, spectator, and private) in the country. There are about 16,000 active road racers and autocrossers in the country (numbers compiled from SCCA and NASA memberships/active racers). That means that oval racers outnumber road racers about 11.5 to 1.


The guys that started in the 60's had incredibly long careers, and really only two guys broke through in the 70's to become stars, Tom Sneva and Rick Mears. After that it was only formula car guys. I know Al Unser Jr ran sprints, but they also put him in Can-Am and other road racing series, because that was really more relavent to the experience he was going to need. That disconnect led to Nascar growing ever more popular. Heck, it was already bigger when the likes of Tim Richmond gave up on Indycars and headed south.

This is not really a problem for me, because I like Nascar, too and don't consider it mutually exclusive.

For me though, I think the spec engine is the worst of anything, You are losing all of the potential aftermarket sponsors, and also the potential fans who like cars. Think of the kids in their tuners who could be using the same cam or heads, or exhaust system as the Indy 500 winner. Spec may be great for safety, reliability, and closeness, but it sure sucks for excitement and buzz.


On edit: Turbines were not banned, but restricted and legislated out of existence. My point is why do that and not restrict the wings, or aero, or weight or whatever else when these new technologies were emerging.

[CCWS77]

That means that oval racers outnumber road racers about 11.5 to 1.
Those oval racers have NASCAR which races in that way full time. The idea of taking over CART, which had a more inclusive overarching reach, was spiteful, foolish, greedy and has been a disaster.


In the US, most who race run dirt ovals.That would be an easy and cheap way for someone to get into auto racing especially in a rural area. Perhaps the NBA should only use a half court since that is where many of its players probably learn. The MLB should use a tennis ball so that T-ball players grow up to feel right at home. This is a sort of backward looking thinking that has nothing to do with actually generating fan interest.


Well, what's it doing?

Still floundering around with an unreliable car that costs more then it should to operate which was designed especially for ovals and a rules a package engineered for pack racing which favors the insiders who best know or helped generate those rules not necessarily who has thier act best together in terms of actually understanding what makes a car go faster and which despite double the horsepower and 10X the budget is barely faster then the Atlantic machine.

The current car is the result of the oval-centric and throwback philosophy.

The culture gap are a group who see racing as a certain way from the past and cannot accept change. Conduct slash on burn on those who have a different idea? No problem! That is what the split was. So now lets have the arrogance to point out oval racing is more popular. No crap, you just conducted a scorched earth policy on the sport for a decade and all that is on TV is NASCAR of course oval racing us CURRENTLY more popular. Thanks, good job for that. That says nothing about the potential or the future.

[Wilf]

These rants are getting very old and the arguments are baseless. Deal with life as it is, not as you wish it was.

[indycool]

Baloney.

Unreliable car? It's been around for a long time and has a good reliability record. The DP-01, NASCAR's Car of Tomorrow and F1's economic situation have wasted millions.

Designed for ovals? Yes. But the road racing kit was introduced and developed years ago for it. Not a factor any more.

Insiders? Pray tell, who?

As I posted before, most called for one series. they got it. Many called for road racing to be included. They got that. Those who want to complain about perceived evils, I guess, can bore us with their whining on the forums.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC, I agree with you most of the way in your last post there. The only thing I think is relevent though is that the fanbase of ovals or roadcourses has to apprieciate the other to make this thing work. I don't always see that from either side, so that is still a stumbling block for the IRL. The league is reaching out but I think they really need to be aggressive with this process.

I also think the current car looks dated. I agree it is reliable but the fact remains it wasn't designed to be the cutting edge, it was a spec design to bring closer racing to the ovals. It did that but that foot to the floor spectacle at places like Texas and Kansas hasn't really caught on with the majority of race fans. I think some sort of evolution needs to happen and a loosening of the rules to allow more variety will cure a lot of the ills. Why?

It will attract manufacturers and their money at some point. It will draw in teams to try new things and maybe find an "unfair advantage" and it will appeal to all the car heads and race fans who want to see change. We thrive on it as a matter of course in motorsport and I think it is the one thing that the IRL has been slow to pickup on. They have had basically two formulas in their 13 years. The first 3 years used old CART machinery and the last 10 has been variations of the same awkward looking design they have now and it just looks dated. It looked dated when it first hit the track to me...but that was my opinion.

[Alexamateo]

.....

That would be an easy and cheap way for someone to get into auto racing especially in a rural area. Perhaps the NBA should only use a half court since that is where many of its players probably learn. The MLB should use a tennis ball so that T-ball players grow up to feel right at home. This is a sort of backward looking thinking that has nothing to do with actually generating fan interest........



That's a rather specious argument, but since you brought it up, professional basketball players don't play half-court, make it,take it, use metal chains for nets, or use the corner of the driveway as out-of-bounds, but most, if not all started out that way at some point. Taken further, and applied to racing, Nascar doesn't race on 1/4 mile dirt tracks either.

Look, Mark's original post was about where we should go. I may not have the answer for that, but one place to start might be to involve the places where most of the professional racers are. I know it may sound strange to some, but many, many regulars at a place like Riverside Speedway in West Memphis, AR (a 1/4 mile dirt track) are full-time professional race drivers who earn their living and are paid to drive even at this low local level. I am talking guys like Terry Gray, Tim Crawley, Jeff Swindell, and Mike Ward. Even a guy like Marshall Skinner is probably a full-time driver now. My good friends Uncle, Eddie Gallagher is/was good enough to make it full time, but had too good of a regular job to give it up for the travel required.

The point is, American open wheel was bigger when these guys saw the best and brightest among them, people they raced against, climb the ladder to culminate at the top, Indianapolis. When that way was cut off to them, the best and brightest now climb the ladder and culminate at the top, which is now Daytona.

As much as some people don't want to admit it, Nascar surpassed Indycar racing a long time ago, and regularly beat CART in the ratings and attendance even in the peak years of 1993-1994.

The second group of people that need to be involved, are engine builders. Leased, sealed, engines you cannot work on really eliminates a lot of interest for some not to mention the opportunities for cross-promotion.

To sum it up, for some reason, Indycar racing wants to shut the door for more than 90% of the people who actually participate in racing in this country, be they participants or manufacturer's, one way to turn things around might be to actually involve them again.

[SarahFan]

As I posted before, most called for one series. they got it. Many called for road racing to be included. They got that. Those who want to complain about perceived evils, I guess, can bore us with their whining on the forums.


that's rediculous....

you and a few others are not willing and/or able to discuss the current state of the sport as it stands today...

that's crystal clear

[Easy Drifter]

I agree a new car is needed. I also agree there should be a fair amount of freedom on chassis, engine and gearbox. That said any car including the slight possibility of one offs will have to be designed to meet safety specs. Ie. crash protection. Not easy for a small operation.
The other problem right now is the economic situation. The last thing the teams need right now is expensive new cars. That is just going to have to wait.

I earlier just threw out as a possibility that if IRL fails or TG pulls the plug that USAC and their new Gold Crown cars might replace the IRL. Somehow quite a few posters seemed to think this was coming from some sort of official position. It was just me thinking out loud. I have no idea if it would even be considered. I do know USAC is playing around with running them on some road courses. I also think they are grossly ugly. I do not know if anyone on here has had a look at some of the proposed designs besides me. I expect IC has.
They would be a huge retogressive step but stranger things have happened. I would also worry about safety on fast tracks as these cars are really designed for short track racing with maybe a relatively slow mile track on occasion.

[indycool]

ED, I really haven't and I have no idea what the cars will look like or what the rules will be in 2011 or 2013 or farther down the road. The thing's an adventure, not a destination, and it's never going to be perfect to suit every individual's taste.

Your comment about the economic situation is the SINGLE driving force right now behind all of this. In a different economic atmosphere, some of the things that SOME fans crave might be possible. Right now, to use a NASCAR expression, some of those cravings would cause Indy car racing to be "blowed up."

Mark, before the split and the Internet era, there was a slow burn among oval fans who called road racers "wine and cheesers." And road racers called oval racers "roundy-rounders" among other things. It was all pretty much known but under the radar. The split and the Internet fora have brought that to a level of hatred and disrespect well ABOVE the radar among a small, but loud, group of people.

As I posted before, I'd like to see more Davey Hamiltons and Sarah Fishers and Jimmy Kites in the saddle of these cars but I don't dislike who's there. I'll watch the race from Mid-Ohio with some enthusiasm but I prefer the racing at Kentucky. IMO, though, the breech has definitely grown between oval and road racing enthusiasts and I don't see much that can be done about it. The IRL has scheduled both. Does it turn both groups off or turn both groups on?

[downtowndeco]

Well, what's it doing?


No kidding. : )

You know, it's funny the way some of the guys parse their words depending on which way they want to spin things. One day they'll claim "the vision" has been totally lost and the IRL has turned into "CART II". Then the next day they'll say the IRL needs to radically change to look more like CART or it will never be successful.

[SarahFan]

IC... or anyone who wants to answer

do you see the current state of AOWR closer resembling..

A. the vision

B. CART circa 1993/94

C. Champcar circa 2000-7


because it apears that after a decede and 10k plus posts on the politics and biz surrounding the sport that you are now preaching that there are no longer politics and biz to be discussed

[indycool]

There are no SPLIT politics to be discussed. The split is over. Done. CART is out of business. CC is out of business. IRL is running the Indycar series.

There have been many different twists and turns and eras of this sport, like any sport. In the '20s, no one ever heard of the designated hitter, a closer, or saves.

IMO, the economy is going to dictate what we see in the immediate future. Eventually, manufacturers MAY return and that scenario may change. Schedule-wise, I don't see it changing much in ratio of road courses to ovals. Some races will go away, others will come on board. I don't see much international gallivanting for a few years, if much at all. Economy just won't make sense to do it. As I've posted twice, some prefer ovals, some prefer road courses and the loudest of all of them wouldn't walk across the street to see the other.

So, Ken, probably some of A and B will remain. Champ Car was a ridiculous, pathetic exercise from 2004-2007 and I don't think we'll see much of that at all.

[SarahFan]

There are no SPLIT politics to be discussed. The split is over. Done. CART is out of business. CC is out of business. IRL is running the Indycar series.

There have been many different twists and turns and eras of this sport, like any sport. In the '20s, no one ever heard of the designated hitter, a closer, or saves.

IMO, the economy is going to dictate what we see in the immediate future. Eventually, manufacturers MAY return and that scenario may change. Schedule-wise, I don't see it changing much in ratio of road courses to ovals. Some races will go away, others will come on board. I don't see much international gallivanting for a few years, if much at all. Economy just won't make sense to do it. As I've posted twice, some prefer ovals, some prefer road courses and the loudest of all of them wouldn't walk across the street to see the other.

So, Ken, probably some of A and B will remain. Champ Car was a ridiculous, pathetic exercise from 2004-2007 and I don't think we'll see much of that at all.

I never mentioned "Split" politics...... but to suggest there is no political atmosphere is just flat out not true....

and I guess your last sentence sums it up.....I agree Champcar was a rediculous exercise.... problem is I (and i'm sure I'm not alone based on the forum rumblings) believe the current state of AOWR more closely resembles Champcar..... than CART or the vision....

clearly YMMV......

[Easy Drifter]

It is kind of strange. Most people I know and have known over the years that actually raced or were deeply involved liked all racing, wether they were the road racing crowd or oval track.
I am road race oriented but I really enjoy short track especially dirt. I am a Sprint car fan. The 1st race car I drove was a stocker on dirt till I got caught. I was 16 and the age then was 21. All my actual racing was road racing but I did work on an Indy car in USAC days.
My former wife was a road racer but we were friends with a lot of the Can Am 3/4 Midget crowd. We attended a lot of the races and helped out. She built the engine that powered the '87 Can Am 3/4 Midget Championship winning car.
As I said most (not all) drivers liked all types of racing and there was a lot of cross racing.
I have spent many a night at ovals, usually in the pits.
It seems to be the general fans that take a hard line one way or another. That is certainly their perogative but I find it kind of funny in a wierd sort of way.

[indycool]

ED, when they have decent crowds at the Iowas and Kansases and Mid-Ohios and Edmontons, there's room for hope that the divide isn't as massive as some would want us to believe. All four of those dwarf the membership at CW.

but to suggest there is no political atmosphere is just flat out not true.....

According to who?

I haven't seen or heard of anybody currently involved saying anything that could be considered as being anything other than pro the unified series.

Unsurprisigly, really. Most members of the IRL are probably happy that the 'war' is over. More so given the current state of the world economy.

Why would anybody currently involved be wanting to start a fight now?

My guess is that those who are stirring up a 'political atmosphere' are on the outside, unable to come to terms with the basic reality that the war is over and that the past is another country

[downtowndeco]

You nailed it. I'd like to see the quotes from team owners, drivers or crew members that are supossedly unhappy. Come on posters who are insinuating this, man up.



According to who?
I haven't seen or heard of anybody currently involved saying anything that could be considered as being anything other than pro the unified series.

Unsurprisigly, really. Most members of the IRL are probably happy that the 'war' is over. More so given the current state of the world economy.

Why would anybody currently involved be wanting to start a fight now?

My guess is that those who are stirring up a 'political atmosphere' are on the outside, unable to come to terms with the basic reality that the war is over and that the past is another country

[Easy Drifter]

For what it is worth this old f--t concurs.

I am so old dirt track racing hadn't begun yet.

Wait for it.

God hadn't invented dirt.

[Bob Riebe]

The machinations that put open wheel racing in the state it is in probably started, unintentionally, in the sixties when teams not only had rules that allowed something other than FE Offies, but actually took the rules seriously and stared building vehicles that were different fromt the FE standard.

The problem is that more and more people decided they had what they though were better ideas, till there were so many, some turning bitter, that they turned into machinations that finally did started the collapse of open wheel racing, and it appears world wide. (discounting sprint cars and super mods. but they to might be more than they are if people had tried to force a square peg into a round hole.)

[Wilf]

The machinations that put open wheel racing in the state it is in probably started, unintentionally, in the sixties when teams not only had rules that allowed something other than FE Offies, but actually took the rules seriously and stared building vehicles that were different fromt the FE standard.

The problem is that more and more people decided they had what they though were better ideas, till there were so many, some turning bitter, that they turned into machinations that finally did started the collapse of open wheel racing, and it appears world wide. (discounting sprint cars and super mods. but they to might be more than they are if people had tried to force a square peg into a round hole.)

OK, Bob - what are you really trying to say?

[garyshell]

that's rediculous....

you and a few others are not willing and/or able to discuss the current state of the sport as it stands today...

that's crystal clear


IC... or anyone who wants to answer

do you see the current state of AOWR closer resembling..

A. the vision

B. CART circa 1993/94

C. Champcar circa 2000-7


because it apears that after a decede and 10k plus posts on the politics and biz surrounding the sport that you are now preaching that there are no longer politics and biz to be discussed

First you moan that IC doesn't want to talk about the CURRENT state of AOWR and then you ask him to compare it to the past.

Gary

[SarahFan]

First you moan that IC doesn't want to talk about the CURRENT state of AOWR and then you ask him to compare it to the past.

Gary

you really struggle with following along don't you gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

I agree with the thought that the teams and people involved now in the sport are glad all the cars and teams are under one banner again.

The economy may dictate things but I do think the IRL will evolve into something that is a little of what CART was and maybe a smattering of the original "vision". Whether all the fans like it or not, I do not think anyone here can honestly say one version of the past or the other will rule. I think when CCWS was folded into the IRL, it looked at first as if the IRL would just be business as usual but the appearance of the races at St. Pete's, Edmonton, Long Beach and Toronto on the schedule, not to mention Mid Ohio being back in the fold says to me that the powers that be have learned a little of the error of their ways. I wont say this wasn't the plan all along, but I like where things are going.

If the economy rebounds then we can assess where to go next. I think the series will hold serve for a year or two with the cars we have now and maybe most of the events we have now.

As for reliving the past. I guess that ship is finally far enough from shore enough that most of us old embittered souls who fought so valiantly for one side or the other will have to suck it up and eat it.

OH ya...ED...God didn't invent dirt till you decided you couldn't stay on the road once and he realized he needed something to stop you from killing yourself eh?

[Bob Riebe]

OK, Bob - what are you really trying to say?
Everyone is trying to point fingers as if-- Had this not happened-- had THIS not happened-- HAD THIS not happened-- we would not have any problems -- that is bs.

Some caused more chaos than others, but the state or racing as a whole shows there is NOT a single source.

Had CART not been formed; had the IRL not been formed; heck, had Jack Brahbham not showed up at Indy, all that happened would have taken place in a different style, different time frame, but open wheel racing woud still be where it is at now.

THere is a lot to be learned from what worked, and what failed in the past; there is an old saying that if one does not do that, misery will be the result.

But, what seem to be forgotten is that all parties involved are pointing fingers while standing in the middle of a room surrounded by fans which are being fed dung in great quantities.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Riebe...you are on the money with your last statement. The only difference is that us fans want more than that dung and we seem to be uniting slowly behind the idea we are done with excuses.....

[downtowndeco]

Insert sound of crickets here.....


You nailed it. I'd like to see the quotes from team owners, drivers or crew members that are supossedly unhappy. Come on posters who are insinuating this, man up.

[SarahFan]

Insert sound of crickets here.....

you have got to be kidding...

your post was stupid.... this one is even dumber


are you seriosly suggesting there is no political atmosphere surrounding AOWR?

[indycool]

He is suggesting, Ken, that the participants are all on the same page as blendification into one series is concerned and IMO, he's right. I haven't heard a word from any of 'em that two series is preferable to one.

[SarahFan]

He is suggesting, Ken, that the participants are all on the same page as blendification into one series is concerned and IMO, he's right. I haven't heard a word from any of 'em that two series is preferable to one.

I'm sure everyone is just stoked....

no Politics involved in Ed keeping his ride at Vision as it downsizes to a one car team...

I'm sure Roger is stoked about canceling Detroit

I gaurantee there is no hard feelings about the kannan/wheldon/Dario/Vitor switches

Gore is so stoked about the Australian date lose he left the series...

and of coarse there are the hundreds of Fans so excited about the loss of Ovalcentricty that .5 tv ratings have regulated the series to VS...


do i need to go on?


*you can pigeon hole a statement all you like..... bottomline is there is and always will be a biz and political atmosphere surrounding AOWR.....any and all series or sport for that matter

[indycool]

...as if most of those switches and changes, in some form, don't happen year after year.....

[SarahFan]

...as if most of those switches and changes, in some form, don't happen year after year.....


exactly......

[SarahFan]

which is why discussing the politics and Biz of the sport will always be in fashion....

as much as you and d and few others want to down play it

[indycool]

Depends on what is "biz" and what is half-baked worthless politics.

Sure, folks are gonna talk about driver changes, their effect, who went where, who needs a ride, who might get this or that one and how they think they'll do.

Sure, the schedule is always a topic because road racing folks and oval racing folks are always at odds.

Sure, Detroit is a topic because it is probably part of the bailout of the Detroit automakers by the government and at least a visible necessity under the circumstances, if not financial.

Sure, we don't know how the Versus deal is going to go, but I read elsewhere that Versus gained more viewers in '08 than any other cable network.

Sure, Gore wanted Surfers but we don't know what part or money he had in that team, anyway.

Sure, we want to follow rumors that Phillippe is going to buy Roth's stuff.

Sure, everyone is going to follow Helio's situation for the next couple months.

But those things are "biz." They aren't "politics" or something clandestine. Rumors are rumors and news is news. And there ain't something evil behind every one.

[Jag_Warrior]

Had CART not been formed; had the IRL not been formed; heck, had Jack Brahbham not showed up at Indy, all that happened would have taken place in a different style, different time frame, but open wheel racing woud still be where it is at now.

I don't mean to ignore the other parts of your post. But just as a general philosophy, I don't believe that anything is predestined. I believe that all of the things that you mentioned have led us to where we are today. Not to make open wheel any more scifi than it already is, but imagine the parallel universes and outcomes if you changed some of the major input variables that you mentioned. All I'm saying is, outputs are determined by the key inputs.

But all anyone can do now is try to learn from the past, not repeat the same mistakes... and most of all, set (realistic) goals as they move forward. I'm not sure if that is happening right now or not. I'm not sure if the current leadership has the skill set necessary to accomplish that. But with deep enough pockets, maybe they can hold out until luck eventually shines on them. Who knows...

[Jag_Warrior]

Sure, Detroit is a topic because it is probably part of the bailout of the Detroit automakers by the government and at least a visible necessity under the circumstances, if not financial.

You caught me off guard with this. What does the TARP funding of the Big 3 have to do with the Detroit race, or when you say "Detroit", do you mean government assistance to the city of Detroit in general?

[garyshell]

According to who?

I haven't seen or heard of anybody currently involved saying anything that could be considered as being anything other than pro the unified series.

Unsurprisigly, really. Most members of the IRL are probably happy that the 'war' is over. More so given the current state of the world economy.

Why would anybody currently involved be wanting to start a fight now?

My guess is that those who are stirring up a 'political atmosphere' are on the outside, unable to come to terms with the basic reality that the war is over and that the past is another country


You nailed it. I'd like to see the quotes from team owners, drivers or crew members that are supossedly unhappy. Come on posters who are insinuating this, man up.


Insert sound of crickets here.....


you have got to be kidding...

your post was stupid.... this one is even dumber


are you seriosly suggesting there is no political atmosphere surrounding AOWR?

So where is YOUR reply to Tamburello? No one in any of these messages suggests that there is no political atmosphere. Tamb said that it would appear that the current participants are happy the war is over, and the ones with a "political atmosphere" are the ones on the outside looking in. DD aggreed and called for the folks who seem to think otherwise, to show some proof. How is that "stupid"?
Gary

[garyshell]

He is suggesting, Ken, that the participants are all on the same page as blendification into one series is concerned and IMO, he's right. I haven't heard a word from any of 'em that two series is preferable to one.


I'm sure everyone is just stoked....

no Politics involved in Ed keeping his ride at Vision as it downsizes to a one car team...

I'm sure Roger is stoked about canceling Detroit

I gaurantee there is no hard feelings about the kannan/wheldon/Dario/Vitor switches

Gore is so stoked about the Australian date lose he left the series...

and of coarse there are the hundreds of Fans so excited about the loss of Ovalcentricty that .5 tv ratings have regulated the series to VS...


do i need to go on?


*you can pigeon hole a statement all you like..... bottomline is there is and always will be a biz and political atmosphere surrounding AOWR.....any and all series or sport for that matter


What, exactly, does that have to do with IC's reiteration of the point that no one seems to think that "two series is preferable to one."? And you claim that I have trouble following along...

Gary

[indycool]

Jag, just IMO, but I have a feeling that the Detroit automakers' support of the Detroit race went away and the cancellation of it at the time that it happened was something of a symbol to send to Washington to get the bailout rollin'. The whole city of Detroit is in deep doo-doo right now. Unemployment is highest in the nation and education is lowest in the nation, I recently heard on a Judge Mathis telecast.

[SarahFan]

Jag, just IMO, but I have a feeling that the Detroit automakers' support of the Detroit race went away and the cancellation of it at the time that it happened was something of a symbol to send to Washington to get the bailout rollin'. The whole city of Detroit is in deep doo-doo right now. Unemployment is highest in the nation and education is lowest in the nation, I recently heard on a Judge Mathis telecast.
so it was political

!or?

[indycool]

FINANCIAL PROPRIETY OR NECESSITY! Sheesh,

[SarahFan]

FINANCIAL PROPRIETY OR NECESSITY! Sheesh,


not sure what that means..... could you elaborate

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag, just IMO, but I have a feeling that the Detroit automakers' support of the Detroit race went away and the cancellation of it at the time that it happened was something of a symbol to send to Washington to get the bailout rollin'. The whole city of Detroit is in deep doo-doo right now. Unemployment is highest in the nation and education is lowest in the nation, I recently heard on a Judge Mathis telecast.

Penske sited the pullout of Audi and Porsche, along with the overall economic downturn, as reasons for the cancellation. I wasn't even aware that any of the Big 3 (outside of GM using the Corvette pace car and being a contributing sponsor) were heavy sponsors of the race. Shelby and Corker were the main SOB's blocking the aid package to the Big 3 and associated suppliers. Since the (hated) UAW had nothing (AFAIK) to do with the race, those two pickle-kissers wouldn't have been swayed one way or the other. And the heavier nonautomotive expenditures would have related to NASCAR. I doubt anyone in the Congress knows anything about the Detroit GP. And if either Bob "Booby" Corker or Richard "Dick" Shelby had whined or complained about what the Big 3 spend on NASCAR, they'd still be swinging from tall oak trees - not that that would be a sad sight (IMO). :)

But yeah, Detroit is a very sad place right now. I generally don't like large cities. So this may not make sense. But I like Detroit. I like cars. And when I'm in Detroit, I think "cars!!!"... so I'm pulling for Detroit to turn itself around as a city. The odds are very long on that happening. But I'd hate to see any American city fall into complete ruin. But IMO, Detroit is about as close as one can get without having the citizens abandon it for higher ground. Very sad... :(

[Bob Riebe]

I don't mean to ignore the other parts of your post. But just as a general philosophy, I don't believe that anything is predestined. I believe that all of the things that you mentioned have led us to where we are today. Not to make open wheel any more scifi than it already is , but imagine the parallel universes and outcomes if you changed some of the major input variables that you mentioned. All I'm saying is, outputs are determined by the key inputs.

Not predestined, simply inevitable.
Greed and power became the over-riding factor in sanctions decision making.

Well, I'm still waiting to see who it is currently involved whose not happy about the way things are going.

It's not Mr Lanigan, anyway. I found that out myself.

"We are going uphill now, not downhill," he said. "Sponsors are looking at us real hard and know we are going to put on a good show. And we are not confusing the race fan anymore and that is a great thing."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72701

[SarahFan]

Well, I'm still waiting to see who it is currently involved whose not happy about the way things are going.

It's not Mr Lanigan, anyway. I found that out myself.

"We are going uphill now, not downhill," he said. "Sponsors are looking at us real hard and know we are going to put on a good show. And we are not confusing the race fan anymore and that is a great thing."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72701

would it or could it possible for an individual or team or sponsor to be on-board with unification but still be concerned about isolated issues regarding the direction of the sport?

for example..... as teams look for sponsorship clearly the confusion about whether a team competes at Indy is eliminated, but also just as clearly concerns about TV ratings are still (for lack of a better term) concerning

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ken...give it a rest. You keep trying to poke holes in the harmony of the teams and participants. The only warring factions in the IRL are those of some of us fans, and even hard@sses like myself know there is no going back and that the sport is better off under one roof.

We may not like some of the people in management or some aspects of it but there is no confusing the advertisers or fans no more. This is Indy Car....and people who sponsor in the series know which fans are being reached and they know this is the series that races in the Indy 500. It is the only logical way for OW racing on the continent to proceed. It was the only way 14 years ago and it took some hard lessons for people to learn to get along.

Now you keep reaching for some discord and disunity and hoping to find proof of it and it isn't happening.

When I see what has happened in Detroit, it has VERY little to do with the IRL actually. It has everything to do with the economy.....

[indycool]

Mark said it better than this, but Ken, there are DEGREES of concern and optimism and pessimism and "concern" itself doesn't mean that the sky is falling and worthy of discussion topics such as some of those you start, like the ridiculous one about Tony George being the supposed director of a "where from" and "where to" video that was two or three years old.

[SarahFan]

Ken...give it a rest. You keep trying to poke holes in the harmony of the teams and participants. The only warring factions in the IRL are those of some of us fans, and even hard@sses like myself know there is no going back and that the sport is better off under one roof.

We may not like some of the people in management or some aspects of it but there is no confusing the advertisers or fans no more. This is Indy Car....and people who sponsor in the series know which fans are being reached and they know this is the series that races in the Indy 500. It is the only logical way for OW racing on the continent to proceed. It was the only way 14 years ago and it took some hard lessons for people to learn to get along.

Now you keep reaching for some discord and disunity and hoping to find proof of it and it isn't happening.

When I see what has happened in Detroit, it has VERY little to do with the IRL actually. It has everything to do with the economy.....

what exactly would you like me to a rest too?.... can you be specific?

and can you point out where I suggested the sport would be better off split?.....I in fact was one of the first on the forums to advocate merger.....


I'm simply suggesting that there was Biz and politics surrounding the sport prior to the split.....certainly during the split.....and there still is today

[SarahFan]

Mark said it better than this, but Ken, there are DEGREES of concern and optimism and pessimism and "concern" itself doesn't mean that the sky is falling and worthy of discussion topics such as some of those you start, like the ridiculous one about Tony George being the supposed director of a "where from" and "where to" video that was two or three years old.

wow... you are really upset about that video aren't you?

I simply found it interesting that Tony directed it.....of coarse it's YOU who are attempting to paint is something other than what it is.....

it's pretty simple... if you don't find a topic interesting TOO YOU.... then simply don't particiapte and don't click on it a second time....

[indycool]

Oh.

[SarahFan]

Oh.


oh what?

you attempted to diminish the thread as having no merit.... yet chose to post in it 8 times and bring it into discussion here in a seperate thread....

clearly it struck a chord with you

[Jag_Warrior]

Not predestined, simply inevitable.
Greed and power became the over-riding factor in sanctions decision making.

So you're saying that the seeds continued to be sewn and that made the outcome inevitable. I think on that we agree. In fact, that mindset may still exist. We shall see.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ken...it isn't that I don't agree with you that TG had a lame video, but IC is also right to point out that it was 2 years ago. Where we go from here is away from Tony doing any directing.

I like you want to see the IRL be more agressive in its marketing and sales, and be more proactive than they are. That said, I don't think the competitors and teams are too unhappy with management. Everyone is holding serve to ride out this economic downturn. This isn't a time to be making waves....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Starter...I think that is my view but you did put in a much more succint way.

I am for the IRL getting their act together but I don't have any issue on how last year was run. I am pleasently surprised how seamless the transition was when you consider how late in the year it actually was brought in.....