Ferrari - 'special deal'

[Mach24]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article5372488.ece

Bernie Ecclestone, the Formula One commercial rights-holder, launched a stinging attack on Luca di Montezemolo yesterday, effectively telling the Ferrari president to mind his own business, in the wake of the latter’s criticisms of the way Ecclestone is running the sport.

Speaking at the Ferrari factory in Maranello, Italy, this week, Di Montezemolo said that Formula One was not being run in what he called a “normal” manner, that the sport did not need a “dictator”, in a remark taken as a reference to Ecclestone, and that teams wanted more of the sport’s vast income and greater transparency from Ecclestone about the extent of that money. “We want to know more about the revenues,” he said.

An angry Ecclestone told The Times that Di Montezemolo should be the last person to be complaining about how much income the teams receive. “The only thing he has not mentioned is the extra money Ferrari get above all the other teams and all the extra things Ferrari have had for years – the ‘general help’ they are considered to have had in Formula One,” Ecclestone said.

It has always been known that Ferrari, whose presence on the grid is regarded as critical to the success and prestige of the championship, are on a special deal with Ecclestone’s company and get more money than their rivals. But Ecclestone put a figure on that for the first time yesterday, something that could be designed to drive a wedge between the Scuderia and the other teams.

“Ferrari get so much more money than everyone else,” he said. “They know exactly what they get, they are not that stupid, although they are not that bright, either. They get about $80 million (about £54 million) more. When they win the constructors’ championship, which they did this year, they got $80 million more than if McLaren had won it.”

Ecclestone added that the special deal with the Italian sports car manufacturer goes back to the attempt by the teams to form a breakaway championship in 2003, when Ferrari were the first to return to the fold. “They were the only team that broke ranks with the other manufacturers – why did they break ranks?” he said. “That’s where the $80 million comes in. We ‘bought’ Ferrari. We ‘bought’ Ferrari’s loyalty. Our deal with Ferrari was that we ‘bought’ them so they would not go to the others.”

Di Montezemolo’s call for more transparency about the huge annual income of Formula One was interpreted by Ecclestone as a thinly veiled attack on his business ethics. He said that since the first formal deal under which the teams race was signed, in 1981, the so-called Concorde Agreement, they have had the right to examine the finances of the business. “They have the right to send people into the company and search for everything,” Ecclestone said. “Ferrari in particular, more than anybody, from day one, have had the right and they’ve never done it. We have bankers here and we’ve got CVC (CVC Capital Partners, the principal owners of Formula One) checking every single solitary thing. So anybody that starts saying that we’ve done anything wrong, I’ll sue the a*** off them.”

As far as Di Montezemolo’s ambition to wrest more money for the teams from Ecclestone, the 78-year-old billionaire cast doubt on the chances of him agreeing to meeting in the new year to discuss this. Previously he had suggested that the teams should get less income, not more, in the light of the recent cost-cutting deal concluded with the FIA. He had a different idea yesterday. “What he should do, rather than asking for money, with all the extra money Ferrari gets, he should share all that amongst the teams,” Ecclestone said of Di Montezemolo.

The Ferrari president levelled a number of specific charges against Ecclestone, among them the decision to cancel the Canadian Grand Prix, which Di Montezemolo said he had found out about in the newspapers.

Once again the pugilistic Formula One official was having none of it. “The reason the Canadian Grand Prix is finished has been discussed with all the teams, including him, and it was agreed that what Canada was paying was nowhere near enough,” Ecclestone said.

In a final thought, he suggested that the Ferrari president knows less about his company than his own employees. “It’s a shame he’s not in touch with people that seem to run the company as opposed to what he does – work as a press officer,” Ecclestone said.

* Is F1 gently imploding?

[philipbain]

Thats awesome, Luca di Montezemolo asks for more transparency and Bernie instantly gives it - by revealing just how favourably Ferrari are treated! Lets face it, this outburst from Montezemolo is just the latest in a line of remarks that border on idiotic. I honestly believe that Luca doesnt actually think before issuing these statements, though I agree that the teams should have a bigger slice of the pie it is wrong that Ferrari should automatically get more money, like any other team they are a commerical entity and should raise money through sales, sponsorship and thier fair share of the prize fund. I personally hope that Bernie makes the sharing of money fairer and more transparent as Ferrari are bound to lose out!

[Ranger]

“What he should do, rather than asking for money, with all the extra money Ferrari gets, he should share all that amongst the teams,” Ecclestone said of Di Montezemolo.
Ouch.

[hmmm - donuts]

As far as Di Montezemolo’s ambition to wrest more money for the teams from Ecclestone, the 78-year-old billionaire cast doubt on the chances of him agreeing to meeting in the new year to discuss this. Previously he had suggested that the teams should get less income, not more, in the light of the recent cost-cutting deal concluded with the FIA.


If the teams were to get less, would this mean that Bernie would get more? Or is he intending to ask for a smaller entry bond, less money from tracks etc...? No, didn't think so.

Ferrari cut a better deal.....so what? Good for them. You get what you are worth. F1 is a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy that's how things work.

[ArrowsFA1]

* Is F1 gently imploding?
It does appear that the formation of FOTA has rather "challenged" the established order of things.

[Donney]

Now I expect Ecclestone can prove it, if not it is more like a childish rant.

[Valve Bounce]

Ferrari cut a better deal.....so what? Good for them. You get what you are worth. F1 is a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy that's how things work.

Not so!! Ferrari sold out to Bernie by shafting the other teams and in doing so, Ferrari was "bought" by Bernie. (Bernie's words, not mine).

I'm just waiting to hear ioan's response. :rolleyes: , should be a beauty, seeing ioan is normally quite a fair sort of guy.

Not so!! Ferrari sold out to Bernie by shafting the other teams and in doing so, Ferrari was "bought" by Bernie. (Bernie's words, not mine).

Ferrari 'sold out' by getting themselves a cracking deal? If it 'shafted' the other teams, then it's just tough. F1 is a business.

For example, Vodafone left Ferrari for Mclaren because Mclaren could offer them title sponsorship, something Ferrari could not. So did Vodafone 'shaft' Ferrari? No, it is simply that, for Vodafone, Mclaren offered a better deal.

Getting a better deal than your rivals and competitors is the very essence of competition, and competition is not restricted to the race-track.

[yodasarmpit]

Getting a better deal from sponsors is business, however getting a better deal from the Governing body is something a little different.

I can see why it happened, you wouldn't want to see Ferrari walk away from F1 so an incentive was offered.

[Tallgeese]

Why do the Brits always back the dwarf?

[hmmm - donuts]

Getting a better deal than your rivals and competitors is the very essence of competition, and competition is not restricted to the race-track.


Though I kind of agree with what you're saying, it seems wrong to me if the better deal (in this case massively more cash), can be used to buy an advantage (via access to more expensive technology) on the race track.

Distribution of monies should depend entirely on success in the competition, not which team you happen to be. Now I know Bernie isn't the FIA, but no wonder that there are accusations of bias towards Ferrari.

p.s. I'm a brit but certainly don't back the dwarf...

[BDunnell]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the deal with Ferrari, I think Bernie's going public on it in such a blunt way does little for the image of the sport. Ferrari are not the ones to have anything to be ashamed about here.

[yodasarmpit]

Why do the Brits always back the dwarf?No we don't.

[jjanicke]

wait a minute. If Ferrari could take advantage of their status and demand more from their sponsor than that' s all fair. However being awarded on a different scale compared to the other teams as it relates to competitive performance in a sport just blows my mind.

To top it off the tifosi are already defending it. WOW!

That just baffles me.

Not to mention the "general help" they have been getting from the regulators.

[markabilly]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article5372488.ece

Bernie


Di Montezemolo’s call for more transparency about the huge annual income of Formula One was interpreted by Ecclestone as a thinly veiled attack on his business ethics.
* Is F1 gently imploding?




I wonder why this word "transparent" of "transparency" has become so popular a substitute for honesty; Could it be that because they do not meaning they are being honest?

---traditionally, when used with respect to such, it had the opposite meaning "the excuse was transparent" meaning we could see right through it, (so as to know they were lying out their butt)......-- the other class of meanings related to the quality of being invisisble, and in the world of computers, it has come to mean: "Computers.(of a process or software) operating in such a way as to not be perceived by users" http://dictionary.infoplease.com/transparent

Whenever I hear politicans say they are being transparent, I think of lack of substance, invisible, easliy seen through as in being liar and/or someone operating in a manner that can not be perceived......so as to hide the truth

[F1boat]

Whatever Ferrari is doing, Ecclestone has become a terrifying menace to the sport we all love. The medals idea is the proof of this. This idiot needs to go. I hope that his wife manages to take F1 from him and sell it to someone else.

[BDunnell]

wait a minute. If Ferrari could take advantage of their status and demand more from their sponsor than that' s all fair. However being awarded on a different scale compared to the other teams as it relates to competitive performance in a sport just blows my mind.

To top it off the tifosi are already defending it. WOW!

That just baffles me.

I wouldn't class myself as a member of the tifosi, yet I'm perfectly prepared to defend it. It's not Ferrari's fault that those responsible said yes to the deal.



Not to mention the "general help" they have been getting from the regulators.

Of which there is no real evidence.

[Jag_Warrior]

Wow! Bernie skips the knives and goes straight for the pistols. Me thinks that maybe Slavica should settle ASAP. His love for F1 (and the money that it's provided him) might be more than his former love for her. Settle, Slavica... or Bernie might produce some photos from the "scrapbook" that you never thought he would.

F1, like boxing and tennis... apparently just another fixed sport. Oh well...

[Easy Drifter]

The fact that Ferrari received extra money from the Concorde Agreement and Bernie has been pretty widely known for many years. Alan Henry in his book "The Power Brokers" writes about it. Reading that book does help understand some of the cr-- that goes on.
However, the amount of money was never public knowledge as far as I know. The Team Owners might know but I doubt it. Can you imagine Stoddard or Eddie Jordan keeping quiet if they knew the details?
By the way Ferrari, before the Concorde, always got more money from the tracks by threatening not to show up. Sometimes just a few days before the event. That I know. I was involved.
The Demented Midget must be really p-ssed off to reveal the amounts, especially considering his reaction when the Cdn. Authorities did the same to him over Mtl.

[PSfan]

wait a minute. If Ferrari could take advantage of their status and demand more from their sponsor than that' s all fair. However being awarded on a different scale compared to the other teams as it relates to competitive performance in a sport just blows my mind.

To top it off the tifosi are already defending it. WOW!

That just baffles me.

Not to mention the "general help" they have been getting from the regulators.


As your post baffles me? Did you actually think the Paul Stoddart was making it up when he said Ferrari was getting alot more then everyone because they have been in the championship longest? This is hardly news Mr. Ecclestone is giving us. The funny thing is, we are quick to assume that the whole $80m more is based on Ferrari signing the concorde, pratically killing the threat of a breakaway series, but we seem to forget they where already being treated better then the others.

[ShiftingGears]

Ecclestone is trying to split FOTA by trying to put a wedge between Ferrari and the others. So obviously he feels threatened by it.

[Mifune]

Why do the Brits always back the dwarf?

Probly our innate sense of common decency, Gordon Gekko here notwithstanding.

[CNR]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hL42kS0OcRBjpysQHd7twnL4nhWQ
this looks like he was tring to get more money for other teams


"What he (di Montezemolo) should do, rather than asking for money, with all the extra money Ferrari gets, he should share all that amongst the teams," Ecclestone told The Times.


love or hate Ferrari f1 would be dead if they had not taken the money and would be geting about the same for WDGP or more with out the troll

[tinchote]

Once again people here are making the traditional mistake of confusing business with sporting regulations.

Whatever money Ferrari gets, they get them from Ecclestone and not from the FIA. So this has nothing to do with "sporting" or anything like that. And, like someone said, it was precisely BE who gave them the money.

[CNR]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2ilfp06.jpg

Ecclestone make about 540,000,000 pre year from the race tracks + tv rights

[aryan]

Ferrari cut a better deal.....so what? Good for them. You get what you are worth. F1 is a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy that's how things work.

Remember GPMA?

Remember when there was a serious threat to F1, and Ecclestone felt it really hard?

Ferrari, like all others, was originally with GPMA. They were the first to break ranks, and that effectively killed GPMA.

What would have happened if GPMA's proposal for an alternate series had taken off? Maybe we would have been rid of CVC and Ecclestone and Mosley, all in one go?

Hopefully this time, all teams will stand together, in the form of FOTA, and end this madness which is the running of F1.

[Valve Bounce]

Ferrari 'sold out' by getting themselves a cracking deal? If it 'shafted' the other teams, then it's just tough. F1 is a business.

For example, Vodafone left Ferrari for Mclaren because Mclaren could offer them title sponsorship, something Ferrari could not. So did Vodafone 'shaft' Ferrari? No, it is simply that, for Vodafone, Mclaren offered a better deal.

Getting a better deal than your rivals and competitors is the very essence of competition, and competition is not restricted to the race-track.

I look at it differently - I would say that Ferrari ratted out on the other teams because Bernie bought" them. One could liken them to a traitor.

[ArrowsFA1]

Whatever "deal" Ferrari struck, and whether it was justified or not, they now realise that "the topic of revenue is of the highest importance in F1 at this time". It's hard to argue that they did not gain an advantage over the rest of the field from the money they have received but they:

...are adamant that the distribution of commercial revenue in Formula One remains a key area for revaluation in the future.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72547

The income generated by F1 as a whole should not benefit one team more than another IMHO. The finance individual teams are able to generate themselves through sponsorship is another question.

[Valve Bounce]

Whatever "deal" Ferrari struck, and whether it was justified or not, they now realise that "the topic of revenue is of the highest importance in F1 at this time". It's hard to argue that they did not gain an advantage over the rest of the field from the money they have received but they:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72547

The income generated by F1 as a whole should not benefit one team more than another IMHO. The finance individual teams are able to generate themselves through sponsorship is another question.

You are pushing organic human byproduct uphill here if you think you are going to get any agreement on this premis from anyone who follows Ferrari.

Still, I await ioan's opinion on this as he will probably be the only Ferrarist to agree with you.

[Bagwan]

Bad move Bernie .

He's given an advantage to one team for years , and he picked the moment that that team spoke to clearing that advantage by lobbying for the others , to quantify the amount .

I guess he must think he came out of the Canadian negotiations looking good , when in fact , it seems that others are looking puzzled at the deals they signed .

He is sorely mistaken if he believes the world's economic and climatic crisis will allow business as usual .

The guy with the biggest paycheque of all will eventually have to realize that he must take the biggest pay cut of all .

[ioan]

[quote="TheMophead"]
&#8220]

And who did agree to give them more?!
Tell you what the idiot isn't the one asking but the one giving!

[quote="TheMophead"]
&#8220]

You little squirrel, are your pants smelling nasty now that Ferrari are the ones menacing with a break away series?
Wake up, you can't buy Ferrari, you can only give in to any of their demands and the other teams demands! :laugh:
Cause no F1 teams means your business is worth nothing! :D


[quote="TheMophead"]&#8220]

Don't make me laugh, working with banks isn't a proof of legitimate and transparent business, not since the current financial mess showed the truth about their ways!

Please be my guest, try suing the worlds biggest automotive manufacturers, we will we see how much you'll lose from what your wife will leave you after your divorce is over! :rotflmao:

BTW, tell us Bernie, is there a new Concorde agreement in place since the previous one expired? If not than you can't sue anyone for anything.

[quote="TheMophead"]
&#8220]

I don't think that 80.000.000 USD / 10 is enough incentive anyway, so be prepared to dwell deep in your and CVC's pockets Bernie!

[quote="TheMophead"]&#8220]

I think he might pay dearly for this one. Maybe in the very near future CVC will decide to have someone else to run the F1 business! :)

[ioan]

Remember GPMA?

Remember when there was a serious threat to F1, and Ecclestone felt it really hard?

Ferrari, like all others, was originally with GPMA. They were the first to break ranks, and that effectively killed GPMA.

What would have happened if GPMA's proposal for an alternate series had taken off? Maybe we would have been rid of CVC and Ecclestone and Mosley, all in one go?

Hopefully this time, all teams will stand together, in the form of FOTA, and end this madness which is the running of F1.

I hope you are right and this time Bernie will be kicked out!
First his wife and now the F1 teams, not a good year for the li'l guy.

[ioan]

Not so!! Ferrari sold out to Bernie by shafting the other teams and in doing so, Ferrari was "bought" by Bernie. (Bernie's words, not mine).

I'm just waiting to hear ioan's response. :rolleyes: , should be a beauty, seeing ioan is normally quite a fair sort of guy.

As you can see Ferrari were not bought by anyone, they just cut themselves a bigger slice of the cake and now are looking for even more.

I thought you are better than that, I mean c'mon man, you can't eat everything Bernie throws to the media.
First he thought he 'bought' himself a wife and than Ferrari, now he finds out he was wrong twice! I didn't think he could be so dumb.

Bernie has to accept the reality,life is a b!tch and business is business and he's in the corner right now.

[ioan]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the deal with Ferrari, I think Bernie's going public on it in such a blunt way does little for the image of the sport. Ferrari are not the ones to have anything to be ashamed about here.

:up: Couldn't have said it any better!

Let's have a seat and enjoy what are hopefully Bernie's last kicks.

[ioan]

Getting a better deal from sponsors is business, however getting a better deal from the Governing body is something a little different.

I can see why it happened, you wouldn't want to see Ferrari walk away from F1 so an incentive was offered.

You are mistaking the commercial rights holder (business partner) with the Sports Governing body, which is something a little differenet! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Probly our innate sense of common decency, Gordon Gekko here notwithstanding.

:laugh: Innate sense of common decency! If you had any you would see that you are lucky to have Gordon Brown as PM at this very moment! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

I look at it differently - I would say that Ferrari ratted out on the other teams because Bernie bought" them. One could liken them to a traitor.

Your completely wrong and you've fallen for Bernie's empty words.

[BDunnell]

You are mistaking the commercial rights holder (business partner) with the Sports Governing body, which is something a little differenet! :rolleyes:

We have been through this quite a few times, and I still feel that the two are inextricably linked. Time for both parties to either roll back from this position or go the whole hog and 'merge', I think.

[ioan]

We have been through this quite a few times, and I still feel that the two are inextricably linked. Time for both parties to either roll back from this position or go the whole hog and 'merge', I think.

A merge is not possible as the FIA si responsible for the all the motorsports and the FOM is only the commercial manager of F1.
Other forms of motorsport would not like the ideea that the FOM gets their hand on everything, also other motorsports most certainly have other companies as commercial rights holders. SO there would be major problems everywhere in such case.

[BDunnell]

A merge is not possible as the FIA si responsible for the all the motorsports and the FOM is only the commercial manager of F1.
Other forms of motorsport would not like the ideea that the FOM gets their hand on everything, also other motorsports most certainly have other companies as commercial rights holders. SO there would be major problems everywhere in such case.

OK, then — the commercial rights holder should be a faceless corporate entity without a well-known Bernie-style 'figurehead'. This would save everyone in the sport a lot of grief. Who cares who holds the commercial rights in most sports? We probably don't even know whether or not they are doing an especially good job. Yet in F1, this has become something of almost absurd importance.

[ioan]

OK, then — the commercial rights holder should be a faceless corporate entity without a well-known Bernie-style 'figurehead'.

I agree, it was always bad that the guy who does manage the money has more than a professional interaction with the participants.

CVC should have told Bernie to get lost when they bought the rights to F1. maybe they will do it now that the teams are displaying their disagreement with his way of doing what he calls "business".

[Valve Bounce]

Good grief!! :(
Why did I have to wake ioan up ? :(

[Chamoo]

It does appear that the formation of FOTA has rather "challenged" the established order of things.

Perhaps Bernie and Max are realizing this. Maybe they aren't happy with the way the teams are getting together and screwing up some of their plans?

Maybe this is the first shot, the first of many, set to instantly cause instability in the inner circle of the FOTA. This could be a strategically planned shot towards one of the leaders of the FOTA, and will no doubt raise questions from the other teams.

[wmcot]

No real news here, it's just plain, everyday business dealings. If IBM work out a better deal than Apple to supply computers on a massive scale, do you think they wouldn't take the money? This goes on in every business every day!

[PolePosition_1]

Ferrari 'sold out' by getting themselves a cracking deal? If it 'shafted' the other teams, then it's just tough. F1 is a business.

For example, Vodafone left Ferrari for Mclaren because Mclaren could offer them title sponsorship, something Ferrari could not. So did Vodafone 'shaft' Ferrari? No, it is simply that, for Vodafone, Mclaren offered a better deal.

Getting a better deal than your rivals and competitors is the very essence of competition, and competition is not restricted to the race-track.

To be fair, I agree with you in many respects. And I'm slightly suprised the fuss this outburst is creating, considering that it was known with Ferrari joined F1 away from the GPWC 5 or so years ago, and it was let known that Ferrari had a financial incentive to do this, its just now we have an actual figure on this.

Though Tamb - I hope you apply your philosophy to Bernie and CVC, who have the current financial deal in place where teams get 47% of profits. Bernie negotiated that deal back in the late 1980s.

[PolePosition_1]

Bad move Bernie .

He's given an advantage to one team for years , and he picked the moment that that team spoke to clearing that advantage by lobbying for the others , to quantify the amount .



I don't think Luca was wanting to clear out thier current advantage. As I understand that Ferrari current agreement is totally seperate to the distribution of F1 profits at end of each year. And as you'd have to assume a contract was signed, its more than probable that they'd get an extra percentage with all the times....on top of their 'special agreement'.

[PolePosition_1]

Perhaps Bernie and Max are realizing this. Maybe they aren't happy with the way the teams are getting together and screwing up some of their plans?



To be fair to Max, I've only seen 100% support of the FOTA from him, he is more than satisfied with the cost cutting measures which have been brought together via the FOTA, and he is supporting the FOTA fight for more revenue from F1 Group.

Bernie however, he bit harder to read, on one hand he has come out congratulating the cost cutting efforts of the FOTA. But now they're after his profits, he hitting back, which could be argued to be a move to distabilize the FOTA, which would be a shame, in all my time of watching F1, I don't recall all the teams all going in same direction at such a speed.

[PolePosition_1]

What I find interesting, is how a lot of people are defending Ferrari on their current deal saying it happens all the time in business etc etc etc.

Which I agree, is a sound defence of it.

However, they're happy to moan about how teams only get 50% of profits (47% I think is exact amount), yet the exact same can be said here, Bernie sorted that deal out, it happens every day in business etc etc.

So on one hand, we got people slating Bernie for one "thing" and yet defending Ferrari using the "thing". Ironic, and highlights the hypocrisy of people :( .

[Knock-on]

I find it unfair that a single team gets preferential treatment from the sports commercial rights holders. My view is that the winners should get the most followed by 2nd, 3rd etc.

$80M is a HUGE slice of the pot.

However, it has been acknowledged by all but the Tifosi that this goes on until now when our red friends decide to defend the situation.

What is more of interest is that Bernie has hinted at the "additional" help they have got. Is this a reference to the infamous Ferrari International Assistance we all know and love?

Ishould imagine a couple of our members will be working out how to defend this revelation when it comes out :D

[PolePosition_1]

I find it unfair that a single team gets preferential treatment from the sports commercial rights holders. My view is that the winners should get the most followed by 2nd, 3rd etc.

$80M is a HUGE slice of the pot.

However, it has been acknowledged by all but the Tifosi that this goes on until now when our red friends decide to defend the situation.

What is more of interest is that Bernie has hinted at the "additional" help they have got. Is this a reference to the infamous Ferrari International Assistance we all know and love?

Ishould imagine a couple of our members will be working out how to defend this revelation when it comes out :D


I agree with you in many respects, and whilst F1 seems to acknowledge the need to overtaking, F1 is all about how much money you get, and by instantly giving one team $80m more - your not really giving a playing level field.

But the current set up of F1, is business along side sport. F1 Group is in charge of the business, which in reality has no say on the sport (FIA). And its purely a business agreement. And in this respect, Ferrari ain't done anything wrong.

Personally, I don't think the teams should get more money, its a fix to the symptons of the high costs disease, we need a cure, cost cuts, and giving them more money goes against this.

If the teams really want more money, I'd suggest they buy CVC out.

[Knock-on]

I agree with you in many respects, and whilst F1 seems to acknowledge the need to overtaking, F1 is all about how much money you get, and by instantly giving one team $80m more - your not really giving a playing level field.

But the current set up of F1, is business along side sport. F1 Group is in charge of the business, which in reality has no say on the sport (FIA). And its purely a business agreement. And in this respect, Ferrari ain't done anything wrong.

Personally, I don't think the teams should get more money, its a fix to the symptons of the high costs disease, we need a cure, cost cuts, and giving them more money goes against this.

If the teams really want more money, I'd suggest they buy CVC out.

Negotiating a better deal may not be illegal but in a sport, it is questionable ethically, especially as it has been swept under the carpet as a dirty secret for so long. However, I am not claiming that Ferrari have done anything wrong.

In fact, I am hugely surprised and impressed that Luca has come out and made such a statement. I should imagine a couple of Ferrari fans are feeling shocked and betrayed that he has come out and erupted this argument into the media.

There has been a new dawn in recent weeks; a spirit of Glastnost between the main rivals that seems to be constructive and built on solid foundations. Either Luca is a fool (which I somehow doubt) or this is further evidence that F1 is continuing a rapid step change in it's fundamental structure and power base.

My hat comes off to Luca.

[PolePosition_1]

Negotiating a better deal may not be illegal but in a sport, it is questionable ethically, especially as it has been swept under the carpet as a dirty secret for so long. However, I am not claiming that Ferrari have done anything wrong.

In fact, I am hugely surprised and impressed that Luca has come out and made such a statement. I should imagine a couple of Ferrari fans are feeling shocked and betrayed that he has come out and erupted this argument into the media.

There has been a new dawn in recent weeks; a spirit of Glastnost between the main rivals that seems to be constructive and built on solid foundations. Either Luca is a fool (which I somehow doubt) or this is further evidence that F1 is continuing a rapid step change in it's fundamental structure and power base.

My hat comes off to Luca.

Without a doubt, you have to question the sporting ethics of this. However, with this principle in mind, you have to question the sporting ethics of giving the winner a higher share of profits than the smaller less successful teams as well.

And I disagree about the "dirty secret" bit. I personally thought it was common knowledge that Ferrari had more money because they broke rank from the GPWC and signed their committment to F1. Though I don't think the figure was ever made public until now.

[Sleeper]

I agree, it was always bad that the guy who does manage the money has more than a professional interaction with the participants.

CVC should have told Bernie to get lost when they bought the rights to F1. maybe they will do it now that the teams are displaying their disagreement with his way of doing what he calls "business".
Unlikely, since CVC want to get as much money out of the sport as possible to pay of their debts and thats exactly what Bernie is doing, whitness the ever increasing fees for the tracks to host F1.

[Sleeper]

All I can say is that FOTA must really be worrying Bernie since they are now looking a bigger slice of the money made by the sport. Thats quite an achievment since only a year ago Bernie and Max wouldnt have batted an eylid if the teams all said they wanted to change something, the duo would have divided and conquered as they have always done to get what they want, but the teams are holding together this time.

[ArrowsFA1]

CVC should have told Bernie to get lost when they bought the rights to F1.
Why? What would that have achieved from the point of view of a private equity and investment company looking to make money? Why throw away Bernie's experience, knowledge and ability to make money for and from F1?

[BDunnell]

Why? What would that have achieved from the point of view of a private equity and investment company looking to make money? Why throw away Bernie's experience, knowledge and ability to make money for and from F1?

Those days might just be coming to an end, though. I am starting to think he is becoming a bit of a liability for the sport.

[ArrowsFA1]

Those days might just be coming to an end, though. I am starting to think he is becoming a bit of a liability for the sport.
Liability? Not so sure about that but I agree that this is a time of change.

I think it is impossible to separate Bernie 'n' Max when it comes to F1. They have been the major figures in the sport in its commercial era. Beginning as team owners/entrants in the 1970's they were effectively running F1 between themselves by the 1990's.

I think the complex financial arrangements which began with the involvement of CVC meant Bernie 'n' Max could no longer run the sport as they had done, although they may be taking some time to recognise it.

As someone (http://www.allthingsmustpass.com/) once said "None of lifes strings can last".

[BDunnell]

Liability? Not so sure about that but I agree that this is a time of change.

The reason I used the word is because things like these comments to the Sunday Times don't exactly look all that good to the outside world, to which Bernie cuts an increasingly bizarre figure.

[AndyRAC]

OK, then — the commercial rights holder should be a faceless corporate entity without a well-known Bernie-style 'figurehead'. This would save everyone in the sport a lot of grief. Who cares who holds the commercial rights in most sports? We probably don't even know whether or not they are doing an especially good job. Yet in F1, this has become something of almost absurd importance.

It seems the FIA may have learnt their lesson as the proposed WRC Promoter - won't have any power. Dave Richards wanted the job a few years ago, but was told that it was 'their' Championship. Pity they didn't realise this before Bernie took over.

[ArrowsFA1]

Essentially Bernie is saying two things:

1) Ferrari get extra money over and above what the other teams receive.
2) Ferrari have been the recipients of "extra things"/"general help" in addition to this extra money.

Now we all knew about 1). It's not news. The merits of them receiving that additional money may be questionable but it's nothing new. 2) is what has stirred up a hornets nest.

If it's Bernie using the by now familiar Max 'n' Bernie's Divide and Rule tactic by exploiting a common perception (as opposed to a fact) then it should backfire on him. Then again, if these "extra things" were actually given to Ferrari then teams and fans would justified in asking what kind of "things" they were.

Still, I tend to think it's Bernie not being too happy about the unity within FOTA driving change within F1. Time was when Bernie himself pulled the teams together (FOCA), but he's not pulling those strings anymore.

[ioan]

Unlikely, since CVC want to get as much money out of the sport as possible to pay of their debts and thats exactly what Bernie is doing, whitness the ever increasing fees for the tracks to host F1.

Well in that case we can only hope that the manufacturers pack it in and go play somewhere else, while the CVC goes bankrupt and Bernie loses his fortune to his wife during their divorce!

[cjent]

I thing the FOTA is a start. The manufacturers are the ones who do/will feel the crunch of the current ecomomy first and are preparing to keep a place for good marketing going by trying to take more control.
The "War of Words" is just political and always is the prologue to a real war in any venue.
It's time for change and this is the beginning.
Sorry for jumping in late.
C

[ioan]

Why? What would that have achieved from the point of view of a private equity and investment company looking to make money? Why throw away Bernie's experience, knowledge and ability to make money for and from F1?

If the teams leave F1 than f1 is worth NOTHING! And CVC can't pay their huge debt+interests out of NOTHING!

[ioan]

Essentially Bernie is saying two things:

1) Ferrari get extra money over and above what the other teams receive.
2) Ferrari have been the recipients of "extra things"/"general help" in addition to this extra money.

The 1st one is well know, but the second one is just Bernie's fantasy.

[Knock-on]

The 1st one is well know, but the second one is just Bernie's fantasy.

I see a time, in the not too distant future, when a lot of dirty laundry comes out.

Bernie only has a 10% stake in CVC I think so not a hellavalot.

He's also got a lot of his business in his (soon to be ex) wifes name.

Being a bit of a megalomaniac, if he does get sidelined, he might just do a bit of a kiss 'n' tell expose out of spite.

Now, THAT would be a book i would read. Wouldn't you?

I find it unfair that a single team gets preferential treatment from the sports commercial rights holders. My view is that the winners should get the most followed by 2nd, 3rd etc.

$80M is a HUGE slice of the pot.

However, it has been acknowledged by all but the Tifosi that this goes on until now when our red friends decide to defend the situation.

Except this Tifosi has never denied it or failed to acknowledge it. I happen to believe that Ferrari are worth a damn sight more than $80million to F1. Far more than a silver team, that's for sure.

But don't let a fact get in the way of your point.

[BDunnell]

Except this Tifosi has never denied it or failed to acknowledge it. I happen to believe that Ferrari are worth a damn sight more than $80million to F1. Far more than a silver team, that's for sure.

Now we are getting into the realm of tiresomely childish arguments about whose dad is the hardest, whose football team is the best, and so on. I could do without it.

Ferrari are worth a lot more to F1 than any other team. It is a fact.

Now we are getting into the realm of tiresomely childish arguments about whose dad is the hardest, whose football team is the best, and so on. I could do without it.

Well, sir, he started it!

[Bagwan]

I don't think Luca was wanting to clear out thier current advantage. As I understand that Ferrari current agreement is totally seperate to the distribution of F1 profits at end of each year. And as you'd have to assume a contract was signed, its more than probable that they'd get an extra percentage with all the times....on top of their 'special agreement'.

Nobody was privy to the details but those directly involved .

Whether Ferrari's Luca had the intention of adding it to the pot or not , he was clearly asking for talks on re-distribution of the funds .
This was acting as lobbyist for FOTA .
Whereas Bernie's outburst seems less rehearsed , I think Luca might have spoken with greater thought behind his words , in the sense that he would know that the special $80million deal would be the first thing exposed .

We must not forget , in the midst of all this , that Ferrari losing F1 , it's long time showcase , would have serious detrimental effect on the car maker .
The house in which Ferrari makes sales just lost it's floor , and it's time to rework the foundation , before the whole house comes tumbling down .


In times of war , feuding locals will join arms to defeat an invader , to save the turf over which they fight .

Bernie , with all his warts , should stay , but should get a right royal economic dressing down .
It might be a rocky new year for Bernie , with Slavica on his case as well .

I wonder if that $80million he gave Ferrari this year was worth the money .
It makes me wonder if making the deal public nullifies it . If not , it's really gonna sting next year , if they win .

[jens]

I have to admit that I don't like the fact that Ferrari is simply getting by 80M $ more than anyone else on the grid no matter what. This is quite a lot of money and an obvious advantage in terms of resources, enabling them to get a competitive advantage. No surprise Ferrari has managed to stay at the top so consistently. What could for example Williams do with 80M $ extra? Hmm...

Although this GPWC idea went to bust, I'm already wishing that a new alternative series will be created, although maybe this time the initiative side can't consist of just manufacturers due to economy as they may pull out soon anyway... Difficult times, difficult situations, not easy to find a solution. Anyway, the future is in every way exciting - not just about economy or racing itself, but also about the leadership of the F1 circus. I just hope the teams continue fighting together until the victorious end!

[wmcot]

Without a doubt, you have to question the sporting ethics of this. However, with this principle in mind, you have to question the sporting ethics of giving the winner a higher share of profits than the smaller less successful teams as well.


But if you wanted to level the field, shouldn't the greatest amount of money go to the worst team?

[Valve Bounce]

This thread is very enlightening. I just wonder, if the shoe was on the other foot, how the comments would go if, say McLaren was the one who had accepted the 80 million and had been favoured by Bernie instead.

Being a Super Aguri fan, I can only say either way, that move is not something I would speak with great delight.

[PolePosition_1]

Ferrari are worth a lot more to F1 than any other team. It is a fact.

So do you think it is correct that when Ferrari win a championship, they get $80m more than McLaren when they win the same championship?

[PolePosition_1]

Nobody was privy to the details but those directly involved .

Whether Ferrari's Luca had the intention of adding it to the pot or not , he was clearly asking for talks on re-distribution of the funds .
This was acting as lobbyist for FOTA .
Whereas Bernie's outburst seems less rehearsed , I think Luca might have spoken with greater thought behind his words , in the sense that he would know that the special $80million deal would be the first thing exposed .

We must not forget , in the midst of all this , that Ferrari losing F1 , it's long time showcase , would have serious detrimental effect on the car maker .
The house in which Ferrari makes sales just lost it's floor , and it's time to rework the foundation , before the whole house comes tumbling down .


In times of war , feuding locals will join arms to defeat an invader , to save the turf over which they fight .

Bernie , with all his warts , should stay , but should get a right royal economic dressing down .
It might be a rocky new year for Bernie , with Slavica on his case as well .

I wonder if that $80million he gave Ferrari this year was worth the money .
It makes me wonder if making the deal public nullifies it . If not , it's really gonna sting next year , if they win .


I know - I was merely responding to a post which by my understanding suggested Luca was trying to re-negioate a deal in which Ferrari would give up their special deal. I was pointing out I highly doubt that would be the case.

[PolePosition_1]

But if you wanted to level the field, shouldn't the greatest amount of money go to the worst team?


Not really, because the worst team would soon become the best team.

In an ideal sporting environment, all teams would get the same, however then you would lose a major incentive for the constructors title.

[CNR]

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/172857-1/toyota_backs_ferrari_in_revenue_row.html

Toyota (http://www.crash.net/gpa/team_team~teamsroot_id~7956.htm) has switched its focus to backing the campaign for a bigger slice of the sport's financial pie.
[quote:1jlmveee]It is estimated that Ecclestone's operation retains around half of all incomes generated by F1 (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/home/), with the rest divided between several groups, including the ten remaining teams according to how they have performed on track. However, with Super Aguri (http://www.crash.net/gpa/team_team~teamsroot_id~8184.htm) haven fallen by the wayside in May and Hondahttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/172857-0/toyota_backs_ferrari_in_revenue_row.html#) now having pulled the plug on its factory team, Howett
Backing Ferrari (http://www.crash.net/gpa/team_team~teamsroot_id~7521.htm) president Luca di Montezemolo, team chief John Howett told Britain's Times newspaper that it was time for a review of how F1's income is divided up between the teams, the commercial rights holders and other interested parties, as it is felt that the Bernie Ecclestone-controlled Formula One Management takes too big a proportion and threatens the future of not only the sport's participants, but also some of the long-standing events that make up its calendar.
[/quote:1jlmveee]


Howett believes that Ecclestone - who, on Monday, revealed that Montezemolo's Ferrarihttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/172857-1/toyota_backs_ferrari_in_revenue_row.html#) gets a bigger slice of the pie then its rivals - could be trying to undermine the new-found strength of unity achieved by the teams in opposition to some of the rule proposals aired of late.

“[Ecclestone] may be trying to [cause a schism within FOTA], but all the information that was given is very transparent and openly shared among the members, so it was a bit of a non-event because everybody is aware of the historic status [of Ferrari],” Howett insisted.

[Bagwan]

I know - I was merely responding to a post which by my understanding suggested Luca was trying to re-negioate a deal in which Ferrari would give up their special deal. I was pointing out I highly doubt that would be the case.

They all knew about the deal , but they may not have known the details .

Now that they do , and Ferrari is solidly a FOTA member , I would suggest that the teams will all have a say as to who gets what .

Now , that means that Ferrari might get extra , but all the rest would need to agree .
Logically , if Bernie could sink the breakaway series with a bribe for the reds , then it should follow that the rest understand that Ferrari is the most important marque in the show .

However , Ferrari , and everyone else but Bernie , it seems , knows the crisis we are within .
I would suggest that , for example , the reds might lobby to make that $80million on offer , available to anyone that wins that trophy .
The whole game would be no fun at all if there was nobody with which to play .

We mustn't forget that Ferrari just won that money this year , and is $80million ahead already .
Lobby for the others , while spending that cash making sure you have the best chance or next year as well .

[PolePosition_1]

They all knew about the deal , but they may not have known the details .

Now that they do , and Ferrari is solidly a FOTA member , I would suggest that the teams will all have a say as to who gets what .

Now , that means that Ferrari might get extra , but all the rest would need to agree .
Logically , if Bernie could sink the breakaway series with a bribe for the reds , then it should follow that the rest understand that Ferrari is the most important marque in the show .

However , Ferrari , and everyone else but Bernie , it seems , knows the crisis we are within .
I would suggest that , for example , the reds might lobby to make that $80million on offer , available to anyone that wins that trophy .
The whole game would be no fun at all if there was nobody with which to play .

We mustn't forget that Ferrari just won that money this year , and is $80million ahead already .
Lobby for the others , while spending that cash making sure you have the best chance or next year as well .

I was under the understanding they got $80m more than any other team every time they won a title, whether they get more for merely being in F1 I don't know.

But when did they break rank from the GPWC? 2003? If so, for every title won, they've had $320,000m.

[Bagwan]

I was under the understanding they got $80m more than any other team every time they won a title, whether they get more for merely being in F1 I don't know.

But when did they break rank from the GPWC? 2003? If so, for every title won, they've had $320,000m.

That's what I understand as well .

If I am correct , they will be lobbying that all teams have the chance at it .

Bernie , trying to break up the FOTA group , has just cemented that deal .

And , you can be sure that Bernie is telling the fine print guys whom he had draw the contract , that it's time to use the "jump ship" clause .

The midget has made his mess , and now he has to lie in it .

[ioan]

I see a time, in the not too distant future, when a lot of dirty laundry comes out.

Bernie only has a 10% stake in CVC I think so not a hellavalot.

He's also got a lot of his business in his (soon to be ex) wifes name.

Being a bit of a megalomaniac, if he does get sidelined, he might just do a bit of a kiss 'n' tell expose out of spite.

Now, THAT would be a book i would read. Wouldn't you?

I don't think I would ever have the time to read an old broken poisonous dwarf's books.

[Bagwan]

I don't think I would ever have the time to read an old broken poisonous dwarf's books.

Oh , come now , Ioan .
He'd have have some pretty gnarly things to say about everyone , I would think , especially if they all stick together , and nail him for more cake .

I think it's great that FOTA is standing up against the dwarfish one .
I'm sure there's a great book in response , from the paddock club , about Bernard's antics , if he really wants to play dirty .

I'd love to read Bernie's side , but a close confidant would be better , as Bernie will never give the whole story of the manipulations he was able to achieve , in his reign as king .
Or , maybe he would , if he was mad enough , and had someone who could type and publish fast enough .

Bernie feels above it all , when he's actually quite below the belt .
Those with the most have the most to lose .

Bernie's pangs of panic will come , and his little outbursts like this one will sink his boat .

[markabilly]

See, this is what highlights the problem of when sports becomes nothing but business for profit.

The ideal structure of F1 like all sports, would be a system without any leanings towards any team, and all revenue is paid as expenses in hosting various events and to the winners for participating and doing well(20k to win, 15k for second and so forth)

The ideal is not like a traveling circus, where certain star performers are paid to make their presence and hence increased ticket sales, are paid accordingly. But this is the reality.

What we have is a business that is more important than anything else in the sport, and these cars and drivers are being paid to make the show so as the sell the show to the public, much like movie stars in a movie.

So it is very hard for many to accept that this is just a show for the entertainment of the masses and sponsors, hence all my comments that were so hated about what was happening during spygate that this was all about the show (with the revenue) and never about justice and fair play....and the deal with Spa and Lewis, was a convenient excuse to generate interest and keep revenue flowing.

Some of you think that Bernie has a special place in his heart for Ferrari, but that is not so. Bernie could care less about Ferrari, except that Ferrari generates revenue for the company by its mere presence, and super agri does NOT.

Indeed, Mac does not do it nearly as much as Ferrari, so the game is to keep Ferrari involved and happy(but not necessarily happy all the time) more so than Mac but balanced against keeping everyone interested in the "competition" so while it maybe an unlevel playing field, it is not so obvious as to be perceived as such by the masses so that income is damaged. After all, at Indy when the tire problems was present, and the only real competitive team left on the gird was ferrari, people were very very unhappy and income threatened. And you can not have a good guy to root for, unless there is the bad guy who does win occaisionally......

Cost vs benefit.

And if the drawing power of ferrari vs mac were switched, then Mac would be in the same spot as Ferrari.....

Bottom line:
Bernie just gets mad when he thinks ferrari or anyone else is biting the hand that feeds them, because he thinks it is his hand. Unfortunately for all of us, he appears to be right.

And so far, it has been his hand, like it or not.

[jso1985]

The 1st one is well know, but the second one is just Bernie's fantasy.

Bernie is an idiot..., the 1st one is basically his fault!(and the other teams for agreeing with it...) and the second one is the kind of things you have to say with proof in hands... now of course it looks like just low shot agaisnt Montezemolo... which in it should be interesting to know what he understans for "fairer" revenue taking count he and everyone knows the fair treat Ferrari receives ;)

But in this stupid war, this time I'm with Ferrari and the others

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: The money issue that has favored Ferrari for year's, has been common knowledge among those who follow Formula One. We may not have known the percise amount (and probably still don't), but the fact that Ferrari was receiving additional monetary compensation is public knowledge.

:rolleyes: What's been suspected... has now become public....

Ferrari has been given special favors...

"All the extra little things Ferrari has had for years-the 'General Help' they have considered to have had in Formula One" ... Ecclestone said.

There's the rub... Has F-1 been run like the WWE (World Wrestling) with the results being "FIXED" to enable one team to win championships ?

Seems as though Bernie's admitted as much... why else would he mention it?

Toyota said today they lost 1.8 Billion (that's a B) dollars this year. Toyota also said they expect worse results in 2009.

Honda may be just the first Factory Team to leave F-1, one or two more may be gone by the end of 2009.

Looks like the Clowns are finally losing control of the Circus... but with the current economy the Circus might also soon dis-appear.

[ioan]

Oh , come now , Ioan .
He'd have have some pretty gnarly things to say about everyone , I would think , especially if they all stick together , and nail him for more cake .

I think it's great that FOTA is standing up against the dwarfish one .
I'm sure there's a great book in response , from the paddock club , about Bernard's antics , if he really wants to play dirty .

I'd love to read Bernie's side , but a close confidant would be better , as Bernie will never give the whole story of the manipulations he was able to achieve , in his reign as king .
Or , maybe he would , if he was mad enough , and had someone who could type and publish fast enough .

Bernie feels above it all , when he's actually quite below the belt .
Those with the most have the most to lose .

Bernie's pangs of panic will come , and his little outbursts like this one will sink his boat .

I really hope you are right, but still I'm not interested by his stories, not a bit.

[ioan]

"All the extra little things Ferrari has had for years-the 'General Help' they have considered to have had in Formula One" ... Ecclestone said.

There's the rub... Has F-1 been run like the WWE (World Wrestling) with the results being "FIXED" to enable one team to win championships ?


Who knows, maybe in the 80's and 90's it was Williams and McLaren receiving the 'General help'?! :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Well, you see now........

The fact that Ferrari could broker this deal, or warrant 'the management' offering it does allude to the importance that having a Ferrari F1 team holds for F1.

Well done for them. F1 is not, and has not been a sport for many years now, so why is anyone surprised.

I note 'sans surprise' that Toyota have spoken on behalf of FOTA that there is no problem with this deal.

As to the 'other assistance' Ferrari get - who knows. Personally, given all thst's gone on - I find it hard to doubt they have had help, but we all love a conspiracy, don't we.

The formation of FOTA seems to have brought about a new era of team stbility and symbiosis, which I see as a very very good thing.

Clearly, Bernard does not share my enthusiasm........ :D

[Easy Drifter]

If the Demented Midget were ever to really 'tell all' from his early days as a wheeler dealer in the sport (pre F1) I expect Scotland Yard would be very interested. I won't say the rumours are true for sure but in those days I did have some very good and reliable sources in the UK. A certain current F1 principle would also be very upset.

[Hondo]

Now the track and circuit owners ought to band together and ask Bernie how much he is willing to PAY THEM to allow him to stage his F1 events at their race tracks.

[wmcot]

Well done for them. F1 is not, and has not been a sport for many years now, so why is anyone surprised.


Actually, F1 is a sport for 90 minutes or so, every other Sunday for 9 or 10 months a year. The rest of the time, it's a big business and an even bigger political beast - that's what makes it different from other forms of motor sport.

[wmcot]

Being a Super Aguri fan, I can only say either way, that move is not something I would speak with great delight.

Actually, I thought I heard a rumor that Bernie once offered Super Aguri $80.00... :)

[Bagwan]

If the Demented Midget were ever to really 'tell all' from his early days as a wheeler dealer in the sport (pre F1) I expect Scotland Yard would be very interested. I won't say the rumours are true for sure but in those days I did have some very good and reliable sources in the UK. A certain current F1 principle would also be very upset.

All right , Drifter , spill it .
Give us that story .

You can't tell us that much without the rest of the tale . It's not fair .

We want a dirty , slimy Christmas story !

So do you think it is correct that when Ferrari win a championship, they get $80m more than McLaren when they win the same championship?

Yep.

The deal was there to be made. Ferrari made it.

Everybody in F1 is on an individual bonus payment system. You get what you are worth.

Well, you see now........

The fact that Ferrari could broker this deal, or warrant 'the management' offering it does allude to the importance that having a Ferrari F1 team holds for F1.

Well done for them. F1 is not, and has not been a sport for many years now, so why is anyone surprised.

I note 'sans surprise' that Toyota have spoken on behalf of FOTA that there is no problem with this deal.

As to the 'other assistance' Ferrari get - who knows. Personally, given all thst's gone on - I find it hard to doubt they have had help, but we all love a conspiracy, don't we.

The formation of FOTA seems to have brought about a new era of team stbility and symbiosis, which I see as a very very good thing.

Clearly, Bernard does not share my enthusiasm........ :D

Take a bow that man!

[Knock-on]

Yep.

The deal was there to be made. Ferrari made it.

Everybody in F1 is on an individual bonus payment system. You get what you are worth.

Ferrari made the deal by jumping onto the Bernie Bandwagon.

Nobody else has an individual deal and are paid as per the Concord agreement that all the teams signed.

Unless you know better of course?

Ferrari made the deal by jumping onto the Bernie Bandwagon.

Nobody else has an individual deal and are paid as per the Concord agreement that all the teams signed.

Unless you know better of course?

What I know is that the deal was there to be made. Bernie isn't the habit of throwing money away, hence the reason the only team who got $80million extra was the one team he needed to be on the Bernie Bandwagon.

Mclaren did not get a look in because it did not matter diddly-squat to the boardrooms of Renault, BMW, Toyota, Honda & Ford what series Mclaren-Mercedes were in.

It did matter where Ferrari were, which is why they got a special cut.

It's basic common sense to see that.....but that's probably why you have such difficulty with it.

Get it into your head that F1 is not a fairy-land were a corinthian attitude will triumph, because it isn't.

[Knock-on]

What I know is that the deal was there to be made. Bernie isn't the habit of throwing money away, hence the reason the only team who got $80million extra was the one team he needed to be on the Bernie Bandwagon.

Mclaren did not get a look in because it did not matter diddly-squat to the boardrooms of Renault, BMW, Toyota, Honda & Ford what series Mclaren-Mercedes were in.

It did matter where Ferrari were, which is why they got a special cut.

It's basic common sense to see that.....but that's probably why you have such difficulty with it.

Get it into your head that F1 is not a fairy-land were a corinthian attitude will triumph, because it isn't.

I'm afraid you seem a little confused again.

You said:


Yep.

The deal was there to be made. Ferrari made it.

Everybody in F1 is on an individual bonus payment system. You get what you are worth.

I asked:


Ferrari made the deal by jumping onto the Bernie Bandwagon.

Nobody else has an individual deal and are paid as per the Concord agreement that all the teams signed.

Unless you know better of course?

Now, before you continue your rude little rant, would you care to answer the question? This is not about who participates in what series or Ferrari negiotiating a $80m per year bribe but YOUR claim that Everybody in F1 is on a individual payment system as Ferrari are.

Or are you simply mistaken again?

[CNR]

YOUR claim that Everybody in F1 is on a individual payment system as Ferrari are.

Or are you simply mistaken again?

What is your point think about the point you are tring to make

a team with 50 constructors championship points will get more then a team 2 constructors championship points

I'm afraid you seem a little confused again.

You said:



I asked:



Now, before you continue your rude little rant, would you care to answer the question? This is not about who participates in what series or Ferrari negiotiating a $80m per year bribe but YOUR claim that Everybody in F1 is on a individual payment system as Ferrari are.

Or are you simply mistaken again?


You are the mistaken one, quel surprise.

I was referring to an individual only being paid what they are worth, even if they are part of a group.

Nowhere did I claim that the other teams get individual payments. They don't, for reasons so obvious I'd have thought that even the most cerebrally challenged would have seen.

What I meant was that you get what you are worth, so every payment/deal is individual. That no other team gets a special payment proves that. That was point. You get what you are worth. In the case of every other team, that is nada, nothing, gazilch.

However, there was nothing to stop them from trying to get a special deal....well, except their lack of value. Bernie didn't prefvent them from being more valuable to F1, he didn't stop them from having the kind of presence and heritage that made them worthy of a special deal.

The blame for that isn't Bernie's or Ferrari's. It's, say just for example, Mr Dennis's fault that his team wasn't capable of getting a special deal.

For somebody who requests others read, perhaps you should try an novel approach....reading and understanding?

Nobody stopped any other team from getting an individual deal. They could have asked for such, but they wouldn't get it because they aren't as valuable to F1 as are Scuderia Ferrari Spa.

It's that simple.

[ioan]

I'm afraid you seem a little confused again.

Uh oh! I'm afraid that you should grow up and lose this confusion thing, it's getting a bit tiresome to see you attack everyone with this stupid line.

[ArrowsFA1]

Ding, ding. End of 2008. Could we start again :s mokin:

[ioan]

Ding, ding. End of 2008. Could we start again :s mokin:

We've got 4 more days! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

We've got 4 more days! ;)

Dang!! you beat me to it :(