Layoffs in the IRL office

[MDS]

http://cms.ibj.com/ASPXPages/6iframes/FrontEndArticlesDetailPage.aspx?ArticleID=27449&NoFrame=1

Indy Racing League and Indianapolis Motor Speedway are planning staff cuts, likely before year end, to become more efficient during a difficult economic environment, according to sources within both organizations who are familiar with the decisions.Again, I'm not a big believer that layoffs and recessions are always bad things. I can only speak for my own company when I say the long term outlook is actually brighter because some of our competition has gone away, and the only two employees I've had to let go were both fired for cause.

So what I'm trying to say is don't consider this a doom and gloom event. I have yet to make it through a year with the same people, or the same number of positions, I started it with. I'm a believer that a lot of the deadweight gets cut during hard times, and hopefully most of these guys were be holding on to BS jobs that really weren't doing anything.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am firmly of the belief a lot of businesses are using the excuse of the recession to dump staff just based on they know they wont take a PR hit for it. Will the 500 or Brickyard 400 draw less fans this year? I doubt it but he is laying people off at the Speedway anyhow. Will the IRL be more viable with less staff? Yes...and maybe there is fat to be cut, but chances are they are people maybe they didn't need in the first place.

Unless no one is going to the races, this is more about taking advantage of the economic situation to not take a PR hit for trimming the fat.

[MDS]

So the worst recession since the 80s isn't going to effect Indy in any measurable way?

[The instant classic]

layoff? so you mean the hot little red head i talk with,on the phone to get my indy 500 tickets is gone :(

[Wilf]

I am firmly of the belief a lot of businesses are using the excuse of the recession to dump staff just based on they know they wont take a PR hit for it. Will the 500 or Brickyard 400 draw less fans this year? I doubt it but he is laying people off at the Speedway anyhow. Will the IRL be more viable with less staff? Yes...and maybe there is fat to be cut, but chances are they are people maybe they didn't need in the first place.

Unless no one is going to the races, this is more about taking advantage of the economic situation to not take a PR hit for trimming the fat.

Mark - Freight is off by at least 30-40%; I routinely see freight offering less than $1/mile. If your company hasn't seen it, it is coming.

[Jag_Warrior]

http://cms.ibj.com/ASPXPages/6iframes/FrontEndArticlesDetailPage.aspx?ArticleID=27449&NoFrame=1
Again, I'm not a big believer that layoffs and recessions are always bad things. I can only speak for my own company when I say the long term outlook is actually brighter because some of our competition has gone away, and the only two employees I've had to let go were both fired for cause.

So what I'm trying to say is don't consider this a doom and gloom event. I have yet to make it through a year with the same people, or the same number of positions, I started it with. I'm a believer that a lot of the deadweight gets cut during hard times, and hopefully most of these guys were be holding on to BS jobs that really weren't doing anything.

I have no idea what is happening at IMS. But any business that needs a recession to find and let go of the employees that aren't doing anything is flawed, poorly structured and badly managed to begin with. In my sector, what I'm seeing is wholesale layoffs. There is no picking and choosing or trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Chrysler needed 5000 people to be gone. And over Thanksgiving, 5000 people took packages and left. When they fired back up the first week of December, there weren't enough people to run certain plants on two shifts, so they cut some factories back to one shift. Some of the same things are happening at Bank of America and Citibank.

The concern that I have (on a macro level) is that this recession could turn into something that begins with the letter "D", if something substantive isn't soon done to free up the credit markets. Right now there are still people with good credit ratings who are willing to buy cars and houses, but there is so little credit to be had. And there are businesses that could easily survive, and maybe even expand, but their lines of credit have either been reduced or cancelled. How that impacts an operation like IMS, I'm not sure (it's rather small in the grand scheme of things). But a great many small to medium sized businesses are greatly suffering right now because of the credit squeeze. Stronger businesses might emerge, with less competition, in the long term. But in the short term, the macro costs of increased unemployment might be overwhelming. The domino and Catch-22 effect of increased unemployment --> increased foreclosures and loan delinquencies --> increased bank failures and credit market losses --> increased tightening of the credit markets --> further increased unemployment, so on and so forth... is not good under any circumstances.

This is not a "normal" cyclical downturn in the economic cycle. This is something different, that I have never seen nor experienced before. And I believe the worst is yet to come.

Again, how this affects North American racing, I don't know. But those who are waiting for Alfa Romeo to join the IRL, in anticipation of their return to North America, may have a longer wait on their hands. Just what a little birdie in Detroit (who may or may not have the true 411) tells me. But it's not just Alfa. Everyone is hurting. Toyota has delayed indefinitely its Prius plant in Mississippi. GM has delayed further work on the factory in Flint that is to make the Volt. Toyota (with its first loss in 70+ years) and Honda have announced deep production cuts for 2009. Fiat Auto had already delayed the Alfa return from 2007 to 2010, and then recently to 2011. I was told that the next Fiat Auto announcement will not include a projected return date for N.A., but it won't happen in 2011. And if GM, Ford or Chrysler drag under a good number of U.S. suppliers in a disorderly bankruptcy... you might as well forget about Alfa for quite awhile. We'll see.

[MDS]

Yeah Jag, I complete agree with you, and I think Honda will stay, but Alfa is never going to come to Indy. I think we might see Audi, or someone else, badge a Cosworth engine in 2010.

As far as the R and D words the key is to make credit available, but not so easy to get that we set ourselves up for another situation. We're going to have to accept that houses are going to be more difficult to own, and less people are going to be able to buy new cars or own homes instead of renting going forward.

Personally. I have no hope that Barack Obama's trillion dollar giveaway to public works graft is going to do anything to help us move the country forward

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah Jag, I complete agree with you, and I think Honda will stay, but Alfa is never going to come to Indy. I think we might see Audi, or someone else, badge a Cosworth engine in 2010.

As far as the R and D words the key is to make credit available, but not so easy to get that we set ourselves up for another situation. We're going to have to accept that houses are going to be more difficult to own, and less people are going to be able to buy new cars or own homes instead of renting going forward.

Personally. I have no hope that Barack Obama's trillion dollar giveaway to public works graft is going to do anything to help us move the country forward

Anthonyvop says that he has a source that claims Audi is anxious to get into the IRL. With its new F1 contract, Cosworth appears to be rising from the grave that Kalkhoven and Forsythe dug for it. And it was VW/Audi that sold Cosworth Racing to Ford, so there is a relationship there. So it is possible that Audi will enter the series. But like everything else right now, I'd say it depends a lot on where things stand after the first quarter. If VAG is in the hole and asking the German government for loan guarantees, I don't look for them to jump into any new racing programs either.

I just wonder if (or why) George won't follow in F1's footsteps and have Cosworth (and Honda) agree to not just a spec, but an engine (one engine). Then the Cosworth version is shopped to manufacturers for badging. In that case, Audi, ABC and XYZ could badge the same engine. Done right, Honda's powerplant could be essentially the same as the Cosworth, and the league would have 3-4 manufacturers to support it and its teams. But by the middle to the end of next year, I guess we'll have our answers.

At best, the massive stimulus will just be a short term cushion for the spike in unemployment that I believe is due in 2009. The advantage his program has in this case is that many infrastructure programs have already been planned and engineered: they're literally setting in tubes on the shelf. Since those are projects that really should have been addressed over the past ten years or so, I object to them less. Crumbling bridges and roads here, while we built new bridges and roads elsewhere... that never set well with me. But all of that is short/medium term. It's the things that Hilda Solis might dream up that concerns me. She's far enough to the left that she makes Robert Reich look like Rush Limbaugh (IMO). But if we're lucky, some of the stimulus will be pegged for tax cuts - and not just meaningless rebate checks.

I agree with your point that we must free up credit, but only enough to get the train moving again - not so much that another bubble (or major inflation) is created. Some inflation would be OK. The big worry now is that we might enter a period of deflation, and that is much harder to "cure" than inflation.

If the IRL could think of a way to develop a formula that (truly) sang "fuel efficiency", IMS might be able to get some of the pork that's about to hit the table too. Imitate F1's KERS concept. Bernie is going to be tied up fighting with Slavica for awhile, so it's not like he'd have time to bust the IRL on "flattering" him. :D

[MDS]

I think the best way to get the economy moving again would be to slash capitol gains taxes for the next two years or so. That will cause private capitol to rush into the market and fund businesses. Of course that won't happen.

One of the good things that came out of the bailout was a tax cut that allowed track owners to depreciate their capitol improvements faster.

Another thing that could stimulate racing is to make sports marketing dollars tax deductable. That way if you spend $7 million to sponsor a KVRT car you get a $7 million write off, or if you co-sponsor a race you would get a $250,000 write off. This helps racing and the companies who adverise, help new businesses emerge, and would increase the amount of sponsorship for all forms of racing, which creates a lot of high-paying jobs. Again, this won't happen either.

[Rex Monaco]

I just wonder if (or why) George won't follow in F1's footsteps and have Cosworth (and Honda) agree to not just a spec, but an engine (one engine).

Or the IRL could adopt F1's engine spec to illiminate the duplication of engine development costs.

But change the rules so that any engineering company or engine builder could build an engine to that spec for one or more teams of it's choosing.

This would make the IRL the place where engineeering firms could develop engines that could possibly enter F1. Who knows, maybe a Roush engine could find itself on the F1 grid via the IRL.

It'd make the IRL more relevant in the world of motorsports.

[Rex Monaco]

Second is the fuel issue. AOW has used ethanol/methanol, mostly for safety reasons, and F1 runs on gasoline. That's two different specs. F1 is unlikely to change and IRL shouldn't as long as there are still ovals on the schedule.

I'm pretty sure that the main issue with ethanol/methanol, is the corrosiveness of the fuel. But that only requires the fuel delivery system to be made differently. The block, pistons, rods, crank, heads, valves, etc.. are all still the same.

The other issue that I know of, is the engines RPM's on ovals. If I recall, lower RPM's on ovals are preferred for engine longevity at full throttle. But this could be regulated via electronics. And the IRL will face the same issue on it's own anyway.

And maybe the IRL could make the engine size smaller than F1 with a smaller bore and/or stroke. This would keep F1 the top engine spec, but it could also make the IRL engine more reliable.

[Rex Monaco]

I'm wondering about two things though. First, costs are relative. What may be a huge reduction in F1 engine costs may still be way more than current IRL engine costs. I don't know the answer to that.

I think the question should be this, what's the cost difference between two new from the ground-up engines designed for two series verses one new from the ground-up engine designed for two series?

I don't claim to have that answer. But it seems to me that two seperate engine development programs would be more expensive than one.

[pits4me]

Anthonyvop says that he has a source that claims Audi is anxious to get into the IRL. With its new F1 contract, Cosworth appears to be rising from the grave that Kalkhoven and Forsythe dug for it. ...

Any excuse to throw Kalkhoven and Forsythe under the bus. Let's get serious, Ford had Cosworth circling the bowl for years. We were fortunate that Kalkhoven and Forsyhe kept the famous brand from dying altogether. If their leadership of the company were that bad, maybe you can explain why so many of their employees thought differently about the commercial direction they wanted to take them. Cosworths growing presence at SEMA was very significant compared to years prior? Even Autosport 2008 was a major step forward.

The Cosworth Torrance facility has done very well under KK & GF's guidance. They also expanded into the Japanese tuner market. Just last month they were honored for their new Mazda MX5 Surpercharger system. Their Twin Plenum Intake Manifold for the Nissan 350z is also a brilliant option. After acquisition by KK/GF, the company has started some very good OEM programs.

To be honest, they have positioned the company very strategically over the past few years despite the loss of the Williams & Torro Rosso F-1 deal. That was indeed a hard blow to their F-1 racing program but the development costs were rising so exponetially, only the marquee brands could afford to supply customer engines from 2007. If they had not withdrawn, they would be in a grave.

I also like what they are doing in the aerospace segment with UAV's. No wonder F-1 embraced them for a spec F-1 engine.

[MDS]

Like Pits said, most of Cosworth's revenue is not related to the creation of engines for race cars

[indycool]

Yes, Starter.....1964.

All sports being right in front of us, in person or on TV, we're going to see the economic problem through it much more than the general public will see Madoff. I agree with Jag.....think there's some rough going ahead.

[Jag_Warrior]

Any excuse to throw Kalkhoven and Forsythe under the bus. Let's get serious, Ford had Cosworth circling the bowl for years. We were fortunate that Kalkhoven and Forsyhe kept the famous brand from dying altogether.

I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. But I'm anything but an apologist for Kalkhoven/Forsythe. Ford had Cosworth "circling the bowl" by having the compnay involved in almost every major motorsports series in the world? Bruce Wood was working on a NASCAR project prior to Kalkhoven and Forsythe buying the company. What happened to that? Outside of the Atlantics program, what major motorsports series are being supported out of the Torrance facility now?



If their leadership of the company were that bad, maybe you can explain why so many of their employees thought differently about the commercial direction they wanted to take them.

Do you have some data to share which shows the opinion of the employees? Andrew Craig and Joe Heitzler had their fans too. We both know of a place that was the internet HQ for the Fans of CCWS Management. The Amigos could do no wrong. It was always that dastardly FTG that was messing things up. :rolleyes:




Cosworths growing presence at SEMA was very significant compared to years prior? Even Autosport 2008 was a major step forward.

The Cosworth Torrance facility has done very well under KK & GF's guidance. They also expanded into the Japanese tuner market. Just last month they were honored for their new Mazda MX5 Surpercharger system. Their Twin Plenum Intake Manifold for the Nissan 350z is also a brilliant option. After acquisition by KK/GF, the company has started some very good OEM programs.


Cosworth expanded into the Japanese tuner market over three years ago. And Cosworth makes some very nice pieces for various Japanese marques. But Cosworth is not a major player in that market. A long walk through any NOPI show will tell you where they stand. That presence may grow in the future. I don't know. But let's not pretend that Cosworth is a name broadly known and greatly used among the import tuners. I'm a great fan of the Cosworth name. I wish that it was better known in that market.

But as I said, I'm glad Cosworth got the F1 contract. That should help to take the Northampton facility back to prominence. Hopefully there'll be something in the IRL for them, and Torrance can really get busy.



To be honest, they have positioned the company very strategically over the past few years despite the loss of the Williams & Torro Rosso F-1 deal. That was indeed a hard blow to their F-1 racing program but the development costs were rising so exponetially, only the marquee brands could afford to supply customer engines from 2007. If they had not withdrawn, they would be in a grave.

The (real) money in developing and building racing engines is in badging. You have less at risk up front and the revenue stream is more reliable. Cosworth couldn't secure badging in F1 and they lost it in Champ Car and the IRL. I'm glad they were able to hang onto Mazda in Atlantics. And Cosworth didn't really withdraw from F1 - no one was going to badge the engine and no one was going to use the engine. That's like saying that I left my wife after she divorced me. Williams was the last team that was using a current spec (2.4 liter V8) Cossie. Torro Rosso was using the grandfathered detuned V10 from the Jag days. That was no longer an option for the following season. They were out, whether they wanted to stay or not.



I also like what they are doing in the aerospace segment with UAV's. No wonder F-1 embraced them for a spec F-1 engine.
[/QUOTE]

I like that too. They're not yet a threat to Bell Systems and others, but contract engineering and R&D is a good growth area. Lotus has proved that over the years. Automobile OEM's are going to outsource even more engineering functions as time goes on. There should be a growing market for Cosworth there too. They have done road car engineering for decades. But the pie should get bigger.

Lastly, my comments weren't meant to hammer or denigrate Cosworth. I did my Christmas shopping yesterday in a Cosworth coat I had imported from the UK several years ago. IMO, it is (still) one of the greatest names in the history of motorsports... right there with Ferrari and Porsche. I hope to see it return to its glory days. I just question whether that is possible under people who have broken series, broken teams, broken promises and broken dreams in their wake.

[Lee Roy]

http://thescore.ibj.com/content/?p=700

[indycool]

Lot of supposition by the author in there. The idea that the Brickyard 400 was the money behind the IRL is a long-standing CW mantra. The Indianapolis 500 supported the IRL, as did Clabber Girl Baking Powder, the Brickyard 400 and all of the other Hulman Co. holdings. To say "this dollar from Sadie in Omaha buying a can of Clabber Girl went to the IRL" couldn't even be proven by the accountants.

But one thing is for sure. Goodyear's tires at the Brickyard last year made a mockery of the biggest attended race on the NASCAR Sprint Cup circuit, so it's not a surprise that some people didn't like it.

[Lee Roy]

The first Brickyard 400 was 1994.
The first IRL season was 1995.

Just a coincidence?

[indycool]

The first IRL season was 1996, composed of Disney, Phoenix and Indy. The second IRL season was 1996-97, composed of Loudon and Las Vegas in '96 and the '97 YEAR's schedule.

It's not like The Hulman Co. was broke before the Brickyard 400, either.

[SarahFan]

It's not like The Hulman Co. was broke before the Brickyard 400, either.

no they weren't....

But according to Tony the IRL isn't adding to the nest egg.... it's subtracting from it

how long will a corporation continue to finance a losing venture?...... not 18 years according Tony

[Lee Roy]

You're correct. Then change that to:

First Brickyard 400 - 1994.
The IRL announced - 1995.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

[Rex Monaco]

The idea that the Brickyard 400 was the money behind the IRL is a long-standing CW mantra.

It's over, let go of the bitterness.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Brickyard 400 allowed Tony some extra dough to play with to create the havoc he did. It may be over....but with that kind of mindset, it may be instructive for it shows how Tony is a fan of blunt force negotiating and using his wealth to get what he wants. Just like Bernie Ecclestone in f1 and we know how much we all love Bernie......NOT

[downtowndeco]

Ancient history rehash. Hey, when you run out of current material dredge up old arguments & stuff that has been gone over a thousand times.

It's over. It's been over. CART went BK. CCWS went out of business. The free market has spoken. The IRL was the last series standing, by whatever means.

Let it go.

[Lee Roy]

The IRL was the last series standing, by whatever means.

Let it go.

The question is, can the IRL continue to stand without the proceeds from the B/Y 400?

Indycool wants to call it CW speculation, but the support of the IRL by the B/Y 400 proceeds has been stated in other circles, like the IRL managment. The only way to prove the extent of the support would be to stop running the B/Y 400 and see what happens to the IRL. I, for one, would love to see it happen.

[indycool]

Link to where the Brickyard 400 is sole supporter of the IRL.

[Jag_Warrior]

The question is, can the IRL continue to stand without the proceeds from the B/Y 400?

IMO, any decrease in outside revenues will make it more difficult to continue funding a business (any business) which has apparently never turned a profit.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ancient history rehash. Hey, when you run out of current material dredge up old arguments & stuff that has been gone over a thousand times.

It's over. It's been over. CART went BK. CCWS went out of business. The free market has spoken. The IRL was the last series standing, by whatever means.

Let it go.

Here is why it is still relevant IMO. The fact is you say the freemarket had spoken. Really? Yes and no. Yes, there was a winner, and he won because he was able to absorb the losses greater than the mismanaged loser. That said...the Winner is now responsible for the fans and teams of the loser and he is now still losing. I keep reminding people who don't want to hear that the reality is OW WASNT losing years ago......and it is losing now for the reason that the same people who are gaining financially from their involvement with NASCAR and the profits used this money to start a series that wasn't required for purely motives of ego and profit. Except the IRL has never made this profit.

I am all for the IRL being healthy and have always had a level of respect for the Indy 500 but I am also never going to stop having a belief that is well founded that most of what has gone on for the last 13 years was unneccessary and did much to kill the viablity of Indy Car racing. It didn't have to go this way and while Tony wasn't the only guy responsible he is the main guy that fired the first shot...financed by the proceeds of the Brickyard 400. BTW...who won the most by the market speaking? NASCAR.....

[Rex Monaco]

Ancient history rehash.

Actually it's not. The current financial status of the IMS and the continued unprofitablitiy of the IRL are valid reasons for people to be concerned about the viability of the IRL to continue to be the steward of AOWR.

TG's recent comments of the IRL needing to be profitable by 2013 or it ceases to exist, only add to that concern.

[Lee Roy]

Link to where the Brickyard 400 is sole supporter of the IRL.

Never said "sole". Sorry, but I don't keep links, so if you want to deny that the B/Y 400 profits are key to keeping the IRL afloat, then go ahead.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lee Roy...you and I are agreeing on WAY too much of late.....it is scaring the heck out of me!!

I don't believe that the Brickyard is the SOLE source of income to allow the formation of the IRL but I do believe it is a HUGE reason why the IRL had money to do what it did and if you have 300000 paying customers at a track that was paid for when Eddie Rickenbacker sold it to the Hulmans, it doesn't take a rocket scientest to conclude that if the Indy 500 was profitable, then the 400 was a windfall of cash. For anyone to deny that reality is to not admit that Tony HAS the cash to do a lot of things, some good...and some not so good.

[indycool]

I would think The Hulman Co., has the cash. It is old substantial private money with a variety of assets.

Sure the Brickyard 400 helped the bottom line bigtime at the Speedway. That doesn't mean the IRL couldn't have been supported by the "500" or Clabber Girl or anything else. But that was the CW mantra put forth with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.

The mistakes made, and one can go back to annual reports and find them, were that CART was making a boatload of money. It was making money off the IPO interest, but NOT operationally, and with some creative accounting. For example, when Rio stiffed CART out of a purse, that was declared a receivable, not a loss. Much of the reason for the IPO was to make chicken salad out of chicken excrement to put some bucks into the hands of the owners. It did.

[Rex Monaco]

The mistakes made, and one can go back to annual reports and find them, were that CART was making a boatload of money.

I fail to understand how the mistakes of the now defunct CART, justify the IRL's current operating loses?

Nobody is in business to lose money. And no family that has worked hard to earn it, is foolish enough to throw it away until it's all gone.

The IRL and TG now have no excuses. CART is gone. So the IRL sinks or swims on their own. And the patience of the investors (in this case the family) will not be as long, now that the IRL is in total control.

[garyshell]

I would think The Hulman Co., has the cash. It is old substantial private money with a variety of assets.

Sure the Brickyard 400 helped the bottom line bigtime at the Speedway. That doesn't mean the IRL couldn't have been supported by the "500" or Clabber Girl or anything else. But that was the CW mantra put forth with absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.

Does it really matter which cash bucket the funds come from, be it Clabber Girl, the "500" itself or the BY400? But let's say for the sake of argument that the coffers were suddenly increased with the advent of the BY400, by an amount equal to that used at the time to prop up the IRL. If so a case can be made that those profits allowed the family to front the money to the IRL to get it off the ground, without having to dip into any other reserves that they might have held at the time.

I think this is the case being made when folks say the BY400 paid for the IRL. I don't think anyone ever suggested that it was a direct accounting measure whereby the checks were written with BY400 on the check. I think what was meant was the BY400 allowed the Holman family trust to comfortably underwrite the IRL without a mutiny breaking out within the other family members of the trust. Numerous times, stories floated to the fore that such a mutiny was fomenting under the surface anyway.

Gary

[indycool]

No, Gary, you're right. It doesn't matter. At times through the years, The Hulman Co. has sold TV stations, bought real estate both north and south of the Speedway, bought a Canadair regional jet to transport officials to races and who knows how else it manages its money, up or down or where? That was my point. The addition of the Brickyard 400 was just one element of the company's businesses, it's private and I have no idea what it does in places like Terre Haute and Evansville and Florida.

[Cart750hp]

Mark - Freight is off by at least 30-40%; I routinely see freight offering less than $1/mile. If your company hasn't seen it, it is coming.

Freight carriers in SoCal are down with their fuel surcharge from 24% to 9% and freight per mile is about the same....ave of $.0128 per gallons(in fuel freight). Idiot people are dusting off their Excursions and Suburbans now that gas is down. Traffic is back and so as freaking huge SUVs on the slow lanes. How I miss those $4.75/gallon.

[ShiftingGears]

The Brickyard 400 allowed Tony some extra dough to play with to create the havoc he did. It may be over....but with that kind of mindset, it may be instructive for it shows how Tony is a fan of blunt force negotiating and using his wealth to get what he wants. Just like Bernie Ecclestone in f1 and we know how much we all love Bernie......NOT

Although, F1 has been a lot more successful thanks to Ecclestone. Not the same can be said about American Open Wheel Racing and Tony George.

[SportscarBruce]

I think the best way to get the economy moving again would be to slash capitol gains taxes for the next two years or so. That will cause private capitol to rush into the market and fund businesses. Of course that won't happen.

That'll work about as effectively as $700b to the financial sector. Bankers in the Caymans and Monaco might appreciate it through.


One of the good things that came out of the bailout was a tax cut that allowed track owners to depreciate their capitol improvements faster.

You mean the added-on tax break sponsored by Sen/Rep Anon? I suppose it was good for the targeted track owners but I haven't seen any reports of jobs being saved as a result. If there was such a result my apologies, please provide the track(s) and number of jobs.


Another thing that could stimulate racing is to make sports marketing dollars tax deductable. That way if you spend $7 million to sponsor a KVRT car you get a $7 million write off, or if you co-sponsor a race you would get a $250,000 write off. This helps racing and the companies who adverise, help new businesses emerge, and would increase the amount of sponsorship for all forms of racing, which creates a lot of high-paying jobs. Again, this won't happen either.

Should happen and should be tied to technological innovation. Lets put racetrack R&D back into the end product, that is the surest way to legitimise motor sport spending.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Although, F1 has been a lot more successful thanks to Ecclestone. Not the same can be said about American Open Wheel Racing and Tony George.


Really? Cant argue it is making money more now than it had before...but Bernie extorts from nations to host races and it isn't justified in any manner other than his greed. Look no further than how he drove Montreal off the sched but demanding over 30million a year to host the race. Tell me where the organizers in Montreal can make money on this deal.

No...I wont turn this into a Bernie is greedy tirade but I will just say f1 is overpriced, over boring and not worth the attention it gets..but the European media and fans seem to think it is a great deal. Let them....

As bad as some might think of Tony George, he isn't the extortionist Bernie Ecclestone is...

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm pretty sure that the main issue with ethanol/methanol, is the corrosiveness of the fuel. But that only requires the fuel delivery system to be made differently. The block, pistons, rods, crank, heads, valves, etc.. are all still the same.

The other issue that I know of, is the engines RPM's on ovals. If I recall, lower RPM's on ovals are preferred for engine longevity at full throttle. But this could be regulated via electronics. And the IRL will face the same issue on it's own anyway.

And maybe the IRL could make the engine size smaller than F1 with a smaller bore and/or stroke. This would keep F1 the top engine spec, but it could also make the IRL engine more reliable.

I think it was Porsche that recently floated the idea of a common or base formula for multiple series. It's an interesting idea, but I don't fully understand how it would be accomplished. I think you're right: F1 is going to require/demand to have the upper spec. But if the required hp output there is in the 750-850 hp range, and the IRL would require roughly the same/slightly less output (with its substantially heavier car)... I'm :confused:

I can see how 600-650 hp would work in sportscar/prototype competition. But what would be done for something like the IRL? I guess a turbo could be added. But then you're talking about a different engine. The components and specs to make a sound turbo racing engine are generally not the same as those for a high output N/A engine. Or maybe it could be that the F1 engine could be turbo charged too. And then the IRL formula could be slightly dialed back and the ACO formula could be dialed back even more on boost. With tinkering, I guess that could work. But you'd still have to count on the FIA always playing ball with the ACO and series like the IRL. Even a poor F1 team could afford a $5 million/year engine lease. The latest target that I've seen from the Max & Bernie Comedy Hour is about $8 million/year for an engine and gearbox. I question how many IRL or ALMS teams could even afford the initial upfront (pay to play) fee of $2.5 million for the upcoming deal. All it would take is a push or nudge from the FIA and other series (or manufacturers) might find themselves on the short end of the stick - just the way Bernie always likes to have it.

I'm just thinking out loud. It is a good concept. But I think the FIA would wind up calling the shots. And any other series would be putting its fate in the hands of a body which has killed more competing series than the Romans killed Christians.

[Rex Monaco]

I think it was Porsche that recently floated the idea of a common or base formula for multiple series. It's an interesting idea, but I don't fully understand how it would be accomplished. I think you're right: F1 is going to require/demand to have the upper spec.

Porsche did float this idea recently. But I've had it for years, as I'm sure others have too.

And you're right that F1 probably can't be trusted. Maybe the ALMS would be the better series, since they don't compete in similar cars and they wouldn't view each other as competition.

[ShiftingGears]

Really? Cant argue it is making money more now than it had before...but Bernie extorts from nations to host races and it isn't justified in any manner other than his greed. Look no further than how he drove Montreal off the sched but demanding over 30million a year to host the race. Tell me where the organizers in Montreal can make money on this deal.

No...I wont turn this into a Bernie is greedy tirade but I will just say f1 is overpriced, over boring and not worth the attention it gets..but the European media and fans seem to think it is a great deal. Let them....

As bad as some might think of Tony George, he isn't the extortionist Bernie Ecclestone is...

Bernie is paying off the debt owed to CVC. As it has interest, the sooner, the better. That's why the fans lost out with Montreal.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Thug...Bernie's bank loan shouldn't mean Canadian race fans should take it in the ear. What is more, we both know this isn't about no loan repayment. Bernie is the richest man in the UK by some accounts. It is greed. Pure and simple.....

[Rex Monaco]

Bernie is the richest man in the UK by some accounts. It is greed. Pure and simple.....

Kinda hypocritical that F1 is attempting to contain costs for the teams while continuing to increase their fees to the tracks.

Maybe the tracks should unite and gain a voice.

[Wilf]

Kinda hypocritical that F1 is attempting to contain costs for the teams while continuing to increase their fees to the tracks.

Maybe the tracks should unite and gain a voice.

I wonder if that is why Bernie has discovered so many street festivals?

[ShiftingGears]

Thug...Bernie's bank loan shouldn't mean Canadian race fans should take it in the ear. What is more, we both know this isn't about no loan repayment. Bernie is the richest man in the UK by some accounts. It is greed. Pure and simple.....

The money comes from the races. Which means that Australia is going to be out soon, as well.

It is about loan repayment, and he is one of the wealthiest men in the UK because he has also made a lot of other people in F1 very wealthy. F1 is a lot more commercially successful now than it was in the 1980's.

[speeddurango]

You may find F1 boring or bla bla bla bla whatever, but I don't see how that's related to business. Some of the biggest junk food restaurant is making big bucks even in this difficult time.

[Rex Monaco]

You may find F1 boring or bla bla bla bla whatever, but I don't see how that's related to business. Some of the biggest junk food restaurant is making big bucks even in this difficult time.

Are you comparing F1 to fastfood?

What does that make the IRL? A mom and pop donut shop?

[Jag_Warrior]

You may find F1 boring or bla bla bla bla whatever, but I don't see how that's related to business. Some of the biggest junk food restaurant is making big bucks even in this difficult time.

Very true. To be honest, all of this talk about the economy being to blame for every business which stubs its toe, or continually fails to gain traction, is sort of a copout, IMO. CART was formed during (what was) one of the deepest economic declines since the 30's. It established a base during those years and found great success when the tide began to rise during the mid 80's.

I agree with Starter that this thread shouldn't go off track and be about F1. But maybe we can look at some of the reasons why Formula One recorded record viewership totals in many global markets for 2008, and possibly understand what the IRL would need to do in order to gain the attention of more sports fans in the U.S. and abroad.

[Jag_Warrior]

Porsche did float this idea recently. But I've had it for years, as I'm sure others have too.

And you're right that F1 probably can't be trusted. Maybe the ALMS would be the better series, since they don't compete in similar cars and they wouldn't view each other as competition.

What do you think of the recent FIA proposal to just have a single engine? One which any number of manufacturers could either build or badge?

That's very close to what we used to discuss on 7 t h Gear (now that it no longer exists, I suppose I can speak of that site now :D ). The only difference was, we used to debate whether Ford could/should badge the Cosworth as a Ford, Mercury, Jaguar, Volvo, etc.

I admit, I'm still not completely in love with the FIA's approach, because I don't like that for F1. But if one wants to contain costs, that would save an immense amount on what would be multiple R&D exercises.

I have nothing against your idea, on having multiple series use a base engine. It's just that I can't see there being enough cooperation between series, international sanctioning bodies and even manufacturers to make it successful longer term.

So what if the IRL ends up with one OEM again (Honda)? Maybe Audi would still play, and maybe others would come in too, if all they had to do was support some light engineering, badging and team support. Ilmor and/or Cosworth as builders, and Honda, ABC, XYZ, etc. as the OEM's? :confused:

[Rex Monaco]

What do you think of the recent FIA proposal to just have a single engine? One which any number of manufacturers could either build or badge?

With my limited understanding of the proposal, I don't like the idea for F1. And I wouldn't like it for any other top ladder series, including the IRL.

That said, doesn't NASCAR specify the engine design perimeters and the manufacturers make the parts with engine builders 'improving' upon them with their own parts thrown in during the build?

What if the block, heads, intake and the exhaust manifold design were all specified by the series, and they left it to the manufacturers to make those parts to their interpretation if the specifications while allowing the engine builders to improve upon it with their own parts like cranks, cams, pistons, rods, valves, etc... as they learn from their racing experience?

Wouldn't specifying that the manufacturers and/or engineering firms could only supply an engine kit (so as to keep it all Ford, and not a Ford block with Toyota heads and Audi Intake) and the engine needed to be built by the team help contain costs, while allowing for some good old fashioned 'hot rodding' to take place? This would make the manufacturers and the engineering firms, parts manufacturers and not engine builders.

You could also make certain parts of the drivetrain supplied by a single approved supplier, like the electronics, turbos and gearboxes.

The trick is to balance cost and innovation. And spec racing locks out the innovation.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you lock out innovation, much of the appeal of racing has to come back to the racing being good; but at times, even that isn't enough.

The car guys want to see innovation beyond the racing on the track. They are lost right now with the IRL as it is.