Renault interested in running Cosworth Engine - Standard Engine all set for FIA rubber stamp in next few days

[Giuseppe F1]

Bye Bye F1.....well miss you :(



Standard engine set for go-ahead

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, December 9th 2008, 12:38 GMT

Radical plans for a standard engine in Formula One look almost certain to be rubber-stamped by the FIA later this week, autosport.com has learned, with five teams including Renault believed to have expressed an interest in signing up to the deal.

FIA president Max Mosley has given teams until Thursday afternoon to sign up to the option of having a standard-specification Cosworth engine from 2010.

In a letter to the teams last week, he said the deal would go ahead as long as a minimum of four outfits were interested in a three-year deal - which will cost them an upfront fee of £1.68 million and an annual charge of £5.49 million.

Although there has been no official confirmation from the FIA about the level of interest in the deal, with Mosley simply claiming last Friday that he had been contacted by three teams, investigations by autosport.com have revealed that half the grid are now seriously looking into it.

Autosport.com understands that as well as wholly independent teams Williams and Force India having shown an interest, Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso have told the FIA that they are taking the option into consideration.

But the biggest surprise is that French car manufacturer Renault is believed to have told the FIA that it too is interested in the supply of standard engines.

Such a move would mark a significant departure for the car maker, who have supplied engines from their Viry-Chatillon base in France since they returned to F1 in 2001.

However, with Renault having long faced financial pressures from their parent company to justify their involvement in F1, the prospect of a dramatic reduction in engine budget from 2010 may be enough to quell any unease that could lead to the French car manufacturer following Honda out of the sport.

Renault boss Flavio Briatore was unavailable for comment about Renault's interest in standard engines, but did say at the season-closing Brazilian Grand Prix that power units were one area where big cost savings could be made.

"I think we are in a very difficult position economically, what is going on around the globe and it's a panic at the moment," he said. "Formula One is not immune from this panic. I believe our chairman and everybody is very sensitive as to what happens in Formula One as well.

"Regarding the question of the engines, sure we need to cut the costs but for me, all this discussion about Formula One engines, already today, with frozen engines, theoretically there is no development. I don't understand all the time how it's surprising when people are talking about engine development etc.

"Already today we have no performance (gains) from the engine. If everybody follows the rules, the engine is frozen and nobody is allowed to touch the engine. Whatever proposal we put together, we need to take into consideration this as well."

The FIA has made it clear that it will not force manufacturers to run a standard engine from 2010, but Mosley said in last week's letter than any car maker's own power unit will have its performance pegged to that of the standard engine.

With no performance differentiation between the different types of engines, Briatore may have felt that there was little point in Renault continuing to fund a full-scale engine programme for tens of millions of pounds, when there is a fully-competitive option for less than £6 million.

Mosley is due to meet with FOTA representatives in Monaco on Wednesday to discuss the latest raft of cost-cutting ideas for implementation next year and 2010.

He has already hinted that measures being proposed by the teams do not go far enough and, with an added urgency to bring budgets down in the wake of Honda's withdrawal, there could be some fraught discussions about what needs to be done.

After Thursday's deadline for standard engines, the FIA World Motor Sport Council will meet on Friday, with Formula One cost cuts believed to be the main item on the agenda.

It is expected that the meeting will rubber stamp any rules proposals coming out of the FOTA meeting, as well as the standard engine plans.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413

[Mark]

But there was also talk of manufacturers being able to build their own engine to the same specifications as long as it does not output any more power/torque etc than the standard units.

[Giuseppe F1]

But there was also talk of manufacturers being able to build their own engine to the same specifications as long as it does not output any more power/torque etc than the standard units.

I guess for manufacturers such as Renault the advantage of running a Cossie versus making their own engine to the exact same standard spec is not having to incur the added overheads of their own inhouse engine operation.

But still, a Renault-Cosworth??

[ioan]

Nothing unexpected, all those who can't design and build a competitive engine are happy to go with this plan.

What about Ferrari, Toyota, BMW and Mercedes?
If the 4 of them aren't allowed to continue producing and using their own engines than it's bye bye F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

But still, a Renault-Cosworth??
Perhaps they'll call it a Toleman again :dozey:

Nothing unexpected, all those who can't design and build a competitive engine are happy to go with this plan.
The Renault was a race winning engine in 2008.

[Knock-on]

The Renault was a race winning engine in 2008.

I've been thinking about that.

Renault were nowhere until the kerfuffle about engines and then suddenly had a race winning car.

Max knew he had this in the pipeline and wanted Flav onboard as a manufacturer.

Not the first time Flav and "der establishment" have come to a similar agreement ;)

Naw, it's just too obvious :D

[ioan]

The Renault was a race winning engine in 2008.

No way Jose, it was a race winning package, not engine. The engine is some 20-30 HP down on the Ferrari and Mercedes and probably the BMW engines too.

Don't mix apples and oranges! ;)

[Knock-on]

No way Jose, it was a race winning package, not engine. The engine is some 20-30 HP down on the Ferrari and Mercedes and probably the BMW engines too.

Don't mix apples and oranges! ;)

Be interesting to have a HP printout of the engine from the start and finish of the season ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

No way Jose, it was a race winning package, not engine.
Oh, alright then...Renault had a race winning package :s mokin:

I'm still not sure how Renault, the car manufacturer, will "sell" the idea of competing in F1 with an engine not of their own making :dozey: although I can understand the likes of Force India, STR, Red Bull, and Williams seeing it as an option.

One other issue is that this is all going on before FOTA have met with the FIA to discuss their own proposals.

[Nikki Katz]

I think that this is a shame, but really Max has been backed into a corner and there needs to be drastic cuts in costs if more teams aren't to pull out imminently. This would work in cutting costs so long as the rival engines don't have a performance advantage. The current ban on developing engines isn't working as the engines are really expensive to make even when they're not being developed, but there are loopholes that have been exploited so that the engines were developed anyway.

If this is done properly then I think in the long term it will be very positive for F1, despite the complaints of Ferrari and Toyota.

[christophulus]

I can see this lasting a few years, then when the financial situation improves it'll slowly be relaxed again.. There's proof that engine improvements are the most costly aspect of R&D so cutting this out will free up money elsewhere.

All it means is that the teams will find some other way to gain an advantage, in areas that are cheaper to develop, although I'm not entirely sure what those areas will be. The new aero packages will be revised over and over again, and the best teams will still be at the front.

[fan-veteran]

But .... if we take a look at 70's we will see that there were periods when only two manufacturers of engines had participated - Ferrari and ...Cosworth :)

[jens]

The current plan for implementing a standard engine doesn't seem as bad as during the first impression, especially as it has turned out that the manufacturers are allowed to continue with their own engines. If also a cheap alternative engine option is given, then what can be wrong with this? Also if a car maker is interested in the idea, then the idea can't be too bad.

Anyway, the combination of Renault-Cosworth still sounds quite odd. Renault's car sales aren't arguably doing too well and maybe at Renault HQ's they have reached to some kind of a conclusion that if their F1 team has any future in the series, then they must use all the possible means to cut down the costs - and are even ready to swallow the pride of their own engines in achieving this goal. Their thought might be pretty much "cheap Cosworth engines or we are out of F1".

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that this is a shame, but really Max has been backed into a corner and there needs to be drastic cuts in costs if more teams aren't to pull out imminently.
I don't see this as the FIA as being backed into a corner at all. Their responsibility is to police the sport in terms of the regulations, not tell teams, or more particularly manufacturers, what they can and cannot spend on F1. The many changes in regulations have, as has already been pointed out, increased costs, not reduced them and manufacturers have always come and gone from F1 regardless of what the governing body do.

The FIA is acting like the proverbial bull in a china shop at the moment, and it is likely that the current President won't be around to clear up the mess, but at best he's being seen to do something which may earn him brownie points in the short term.

[RWD]

if it cuts there costs and keeps them in F1, I can see others doing this, afterall the Cosworth will be unbranded, so teams can call it whatever they like.

[CNR]

any body think this could have been the plan with the engin freeze will it remain in place for the teams that do not wish to use or build the same spec engin.

[Hawkmoon]

Next step: "Unbranded" chassis.

Goodbye F1, hello IRL.

No thanks.

[BDunnell]

The FIA is acting like the proverbial bull in a china shop at the moment, and it is likely that the current President won't be around to clear up the mess, but at best he's being seen to do something which may earn him brownie points in the short term.

While the FIA's actions in terms of rule changes in recent years have hardly been praiseworthy, the required action now has to happen in the short term, surely?

[ioan]

I'm still not sure how Renault, the car manufacturer, will "sell" the idea of competing in F1 with an engine not of their own making :dozey: although I can understand the likes of Force India, STR, Red Bull, and Williams seeing it as an option.

Easy, like they did it until now: "Renault = Champions du monde pilotes/constructeurs de la F1"

Where do they specify the engine? Nowhere!
What does the average Jean-Pierre know about what engine is in the back of that Renault F1 car? Nothing. And does he care? No!

[BDunnell]

Easy, like they did it until now: "Renault = Champions du monde pilotes/constructeurs de la F1"

Where do they specify the engine? Nowhere!
What does the average Jean-Pierre know about what engine is in the back of that Renault F1 car? Nothing. And does he care? No!

I agree. After all, while Ford may have famously made nothing of the fact that its engines powered Michael Schumacher to world championship glory in 1994, I don't think that will have done them much harm!

In all the hoo-hah about this, we shouldn't forget that it will still be perfectly possible for other companies to build F1 engines and supply them to more than one team. I hope we see a bit of competition in this respect, albeit regulated by restrictions on costs, for otherwise we will see them spiralling again. If Cosworth can produce a good engine for a good price, surely others can?

One note of caution, though. Using spec engines brings with it a whole range of possibilities for controversy if those engines aren't up to scratch in some way. If enough teams use the same engine and there's a common fault, the impact could be severe — Indianapolis 2005 all over again, maybe?

[Andrewmcm]

Nah, Honda have supplied the IRL with engines for ages, as did Cosworth with engines for Champcar for several years too. I don't think there were (m)any instances of mass-failures on a given weekend. I seem to recall an issue with the pit-lane speed limiter coming on instead of the power-to-pass in a Champcar race, but I think that was due to the electronics rather than the engine....

[nigelred5]

But .... if we take a look at 70's we will see that there were periods when only two manufacturers of engines had participated - Ferrari and ...Cosworth :)


And I never saw that was a bad thing! F1 in the 70's were about teams and drivers and chassis innovation, but the engines were almost entirely left to Cosworth. It didn't matter if the car had ground effects, or a sucker fan, or six wheels or moveable aerodynamics, the field had the same basic power, which was a good thing. If you wanted to race, you could always buy a March and a Cossie and show up to race and knew you at least weren't immediately handicapped by the lump behind the driver. It might have been full season, It might have been a rotataing driver line up, Teams might have been race to race but the teams that wanted to race came to race when they could. I can see a lot of similarities between what we may see in the coming seasons and the 70's. I have to say, it's a rare occasion when I actually welcome a return of a decade I choose to block out most of the time, but it really was a time I remember fondly that was the core of my years as a kid.

[nigelred5]

I agree. After all, while Ford may have famously made nothing of the fact that its engines powered Michael Schumacher to world championship glory in 1994, I don't think that will have done them much harm!

In all the hoo-hah about this, we shouldn't forget that it will still be perfectly possible for other companies to build F1 engines and supply them to more than one team. I hope we see a bit of competition in this respect, albeit regulated by restrictions on costs, for otherwise we will see them spiralling again. If Cosworth can produce a good engine for a good price, surely others can?

One note of caution, though. Using spec engines brings with it a whole range of possibilities for controversy if those engines aren't up to scratch in some way. If enough teams use the same engine and there's a common fault, the impact could be severe — Indianapolis 2005 all over again, maybe?

Cosworth has a long history of providing an entire series engines with incredible durability and very tightly matched performance with the Xf in Cart/Champcar. An engine that I'd actually rather see than the V10 being offered. I have to say, F1 may finally have an eonomis reason for adopting a chassis and engine regulation similar to CART in the 90's that was ultra competetive, yet still a small fraction of the cost of a contemporary F1 program.

When you remove the competetion for ever increasing power from the engine regulations, you also remove or minimise the inherent failures associated with constantly pushing the envelope. If a problem developed, evreyone is affected. I wouldn't worry about their ability to produce a reliable controlled engine at all. Cosworth and Toyota and even Honda for that matter all have a long history of doing it in CART and the IRL, Renault has done it in WSR, and even Ferrari is doing it in A1GP. I"d much prefer seeing a return to manufacturers building engines and teams having a chioce of where their chassis comes from

I suspect what is being offered by Cosworth is merely a lower cost and detuned version of their well tested and pretty reliable V10 from a couple years ago.

[gshevlin]

We have to be careful about drawing too many parallels between the past and the possible future...in the late 70's, although many teams used the Cosworth DFV engine, not all the teams had equal powerplant versions. You could have a Cosworth DFV rebuilt by a number of different engine builders, some of whom had "development" variants which were more powerful. I remember reading an article about Roberto Guerrero, who drove for Ensign in 1981, being told by Patrick Head that he had 40 bhp less than the Williams drivers that year. Williams were using John Judd's Engine Developments as a rebuilder for most of their engines, and their DFVs were the most powerful on the grid in the last 3-4 years of the non-turbo era.
With the standard engine, it looks like there will not be any external rebuilders allowed, so the playing field will be level. The only remaining question will be how the FIA chooses to equalize the performance of any remaining manufacturer engines.

[NickFalzone]

Not only does it mean that more teams can compete, but that the advantages of the richer teams will be in areas that do not provide as much of a boost over the competition. So tighter races and larger grid, under this cosworth spec. Some would say it's an artificial way to create better racing, but if you look at a very spec league like IRL with 9 winners in 18 races last season, it does work out to increase the importance of the driver and team over the technology. I think it's a sad situation for F1 to go this route, but it will not necessarily be terrible for the racing. Hopefully it is a temporary plan over the next 3-5 seasons, but is F1 increasing in sponsors and popularity or not? If not, this could go on for quite a long time. I do not think spec chassis will come into play, but less consumers go for a Ferrari for its "great chassis" than for its fast engines.

[ioan]

It was reported last week that Fernando Alonso said he would quit Formula one if standard engines were introduced.

Double world champion Alonso said: "If they approve a single engine that would be the last straw.

"It would be time to start thinking about retirement." foxsports.com


I hope for the sports sake that this was just one of his off the cuff rash statements. Renault have now shown interest in committing to this possibility so I hope Fernando is not a man of his word as Formula one would be a poorer place as a result. :mad:

I guess he will not have to use an imposed standard engine when he moves to Ferrari.

[ArrowsFA1]

While the FIA's actions in terms of rule changes in recent years have hardly been praiseworthy, the required action now has to happen in the short term, surely?
Indeed, but I do question what role the FIA should have in determining what the teams can and cannot spend. I think the finance available to the teams themselves from sponsorship and their boards of directors will determine that, as they always have done.

We've already seen (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72412) that Red Bull's senior management are looking at making up to a 30 per cent cost reduction at the team over the next 12 months. That's economic reality talking, not the FIA.

Fundamental changes are being imposed on F1 at the moment and while the external economic factors are inevitable in the current climate I'm not at all convinced that the FIA needs to step in to the extent that it is. I also don't agree with these kind of decisions being taken already when the FIA is yet to meet with FOTA to discuss their proposals. That meeting is due to happen today, but I do wonder if there is any point given the FIA's stance.

The FIA's reaction to the current situation reminds me somewhat of their response to Imola 1994. Then, as now, F1 and its' governing body was very much in the media spotlight, although for very different reasons obviously. I think then many felt that there was an overreaction led by the need to be seen to be doing something. A chicane put at the bottom of Eau Rouge was a very visible something, but it wasn't necessary and was quickly removed next time around. The changes being made to F1 now may not be so easy to reverse.


Easy, like they did it until now: "Renault = Champions du monde pilotes/constructeurs de la F1"

Where do they specify the engine? Nowhere!
What does the average Jean-Pierre know about what engine is in the back of that Renault F1 car? Nothing. And does he care? No!
That's a good point. Does it really matter if a manufacturer sticks their badge on the engine and claims it as their own? You're probably right that the average Jean-Pierre won't know or care. Also, we've had the Petronas (Ferrari), Supertech (Renault), Ilmor (Mercedes), and Megatron (BMW) in the past.

[Mark]

I would have thought that, instead of making a single engine supply which would force manufacturers out of F1. They should come up with some very tightly controlled regulations on what you can and can't do with your engines, but allow enough scope for engine builders to be able to do at least some innovation.

Then you bring in a rule which says that anyone should be able to come along and buy your engine for a fixed price.

[ArrowsFA1]

I would have thought that, instead of making a single engine supply which would force manufacturers out of F1. They should come up with some very tightly controlled regulations on what you can and can't do with your engines, but allow enough scope for engine builders to be able to do at least some innovation.

Then you bring in a rule which says that anyone should be able to come along and buy your engine for a fixed price.
The FIA has previously (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72019) asked teams to come up with a proposal to supply independent teams with engines for five million Euros per season.

[ArrowsFA1]

Just spotted this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7774277.stm) on the BBC's website:


The FIA issued a statement on Tuesday claiming: "There has been a very positive response from the F1 teams regarding our engine proposals.

"It would be inappropriate to comment on the reaction of any individual team, or give further details, in advance of Friday's [FIA] World Council meeting."

This led to reports that Renault was particularly keen to adopt the standard powertrain. Yet the French team responded by issuing its own statement, saying it "would like to state that the positions of the team and Renault are in complete accordance to those of Fota. "We would like to point out that neither (team boss) Mr Briatore nor Renault have spoken to the press regarding this matter."

[Knock-on]

Well, Friday will be interesting.

What's the betting that the teams will come up with an alternative to supply engines for a fixed cost?

[ArrowsFA1]

Well, Friday will be interesting.
Today's FIA/FOTA meeting could be as well, although given that Max has already "hinted (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413) that measures being proposed by the teams do not go far enough" according to Autosport I suspect FOTA's proposals will largely be dismissed in favour of Max's come Friday.

[wedge]

Nah, Honda have supplied the IRL with engines for ages, as did Cosworth with engines for Champcar for several years too. I don't think there were (m)any instances of mass-failures on a given weekend. I seem to recall an issue with the pit-lane speed limiter coming on instead of the power-to-pass in a Champcar race, but I think that was due to the electronics rather than the engine....

No disrespect to Cosworth, they're a small company and their recent track record in F1 isn't particularly good is it?

Williams suffered numerous engine failures in 2006.

Can't remember the engine supplier but there was the Grand Prix Master meeting at Silverstone when most of the grid suffered engine failure at practice.

Hate to think of the implications of a high rate of attrition over a GP weekend.

[ioan]

No disrespect to Cosworth, they're a small company and their recent track record in F1 isn't particularly good is it?

Williams suffered numerous engine failures in 2006.

Can't remember the engine supplier but there was the Grand Prix Master meeting at Silverstone when most of the grid suffered engine failure at practice.

Hate to think of the implications of a high rate of attrition over a GP weekend.

Don't worry, it will be Ferrari's and MS' fault like Indy 2005! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Can't remember the engine supplier but there was the Grand Prix Master meeting at Silverstone when most of the grid suffered engine failure at practice.
IIRC they were provided by Nicholson McLaren Engines.

[Sleeper]

No disrespect to Cosworth, they're a small company and their recent track record in F1 isn't particularly good is it?

Williams suffered numerous engine failures in 2006.

Can't remember the engine supplier but there was the Grand Prix Master meeting at Silverstone when most of the grid suffered engine failure at practice.

Hate to think of the implications of a high rate of attrition over a GP weekend.
The Williams failures of 06 were down to Williams built parts, anilareies like the cooling and exhaust.

The GPM engines were Cosworth XF (champ car) engines re built and tuned by Nicholson-McLaren (not the F1 team), and was entirely N-M's fault for poor work as the XF has a geat track record for reliability and equality between units.

People have pointed to the 70's when there was only Cosworth and Ferrari and ocaisonally Renault and Alfa, but the difference is that back then the engine companies were in direct competition with each other. Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW and Toyota will all have better engines than Cosworth because they have more to spend, plus 3 years of development over the lst Cosworth V8 of 06 (assuming that it will be based on that engine)but it will be useless because Max is going to peg them back to the Cosworths performance.

Someone mentioned that Champ Car had something similar in the late 90's/early 2000's but fails to mention that it led to Handa, Toyota and Mercedes all pulling out and Toyota and Honda took half the teams with them to the IRL.

[Andrewmcm]

CART cocked that one up though by introducing a new pop-off valve rule mid-way through a season to appease one manufacturer, then found that 3/4 of their engine suppliers promptly left the series. I don't think it's really fair to draw comparisons between that and F1's current predicament.

[Sleeper]

CART cocked that one up though by introducing a new pop-off valve rule mid-way through a season to appease one manufacturer, then found that 3/4 of their engine suppliers promptly left the series. I don't think it's really fair to draw comparisons between that and F1's current predicament.
The pop off valve had been in use for a few years to controle power, but it was constant tinkering with the rules (seem familier) that created unrest and forced the manufacturers out.

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72422

What the hell is he on?

He wants to cut costs, standardise the engine and gearbox while increasing innovation?

Isn't this a bit contradictory?

[CNR]

teams would be free to build licensed Cosworth engines or their own powerplants but on a performance par with the Cosworth unit.

This may not be as bad as it sounds

build licensed Cosworth engines
research and development cost gone (eg Ferrari this year with the bad batch of parts)
buy in or make parts as needed (may be cheaper to buy the main parts Cylinder Block And Pistons and so on) and it would be cheaper to mass produce parts

Their own engine could use parts from Cosworth to cut costs.

[nigelred5]

The Williams failures of 06 were down to Williams built parts, anilareies like the cooling and exhaust.

The GPM engines were Cosworth XF (champ car) engines re built and tuned by Nicholson-McLaren (not the F1 team), and was entirely N-M's fault for poor work as the XF has a geat track record for reliability and equality between units.

People have pointed to the 70's when there was only Cosworth and Ferrari and ocaisonally Renault and Alfa, but the difference is that back then the engine companies were in direct competition with each other. Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW and Toyota will all have better engines than Cosworth because they have more to spend, plus 3 years of development over the lst Cosworth V8 of 06 (assuming that it will be based on that engine)but it will be useless because Max is going to peg them back to the Cosworths performance.

Someone mentioned that Champ Car had something similar in the late 90's/early 2000's but fails to mention that it led to Handa, Toyota and Mercedes all pulling out and Toyota and Honda took half the teams with them to the IRL.

That pullout had everything to do with HOW it was handled by CART and not with the manufacturers itself. they were built to a set of rules, not a single spec. What I've read of this proposal the engine is the cosworth and spec transmission. teams can either lease this package from cosworth, or essentially license the design and build it to the same spec., using hte standard ECU. They are going to have to give the manufacturers some autonomy in production of the engine or they no longer have any reason to participate. Simply badging the cossie just won't cut it IMHO.

[ArrowsFA1]

What the hell is he on?
Well he's right about one thing:

"...what is wrong with Formula One today was wrong before any of the present economic problems cropped up. Essentially it's the rules, which have become ever more restrictive..."
And who, may I ask, has been responsible for those rules?