Honda been in decline since Prodrive/Dave Richards departure?

[Charlie]

Does everbody remember how poor BAR were up until 2002 and then Prodrive's influence kicked in 2003 when they attracted a talented driver (Button) and had a competitive car that was a regular point scorer. Then in 2004 when suddenly they seemed cost efficient (in a Formula 1 sense) and had a very quick car and a good driver, Finishing 2nd in the constructers championship.

Then you had that whole thing with Button deciding he didn't want to stay, blah, blah unloyal etc. Honda bought out B.A.R won a race, other than that been very poor.

Dave Richards/Prodrive really did turn that team around, sorting out sponsors, getting in the right people and cuting expenditure where it wasn't needed and most importantly puting a competitive car on the pit lane.

This was all while toyota were spending big and struggling, then Honda bought BAR out brought in their own people and them and Toyoto sort of switched places.

I never really had much time for Nick Fry but David Richards always struck me as somebody who knew about the sport.

I really think after all the success of 2004 they've been an absolute shambles with their budget and facilities, particually these past two years with the 'earth car'.

Thoughts?

[Knock-on]

Pretty much agree with all of that.

DR is a complex character that people seem to love to hate. He is an abrasive little weasel at times but does get results. I quite liken him to Sir Clive Woodward.

Perhaps he is considering spending a quid ;)

[BDunnell]

I really think after all the success of 2004 they've been an absolute shambles with their budget and facilities, particually these past two years with the 'earth car'.

Interestingly, this has been cited in the British media as one reason for the team's downfall, because the lack of other sponsors meant Honda had to stump up more towards the team.

[Charlie]

Interestingly, this has been cited in the British media as one reason for the team's downfall, because the lack of other sponsors meant Honda had to stump up more towards the team.

Totally, the fact is, how is having an earth on the car going to raise awareness? The team and car just looked un-professional aswell kitted out with all the earth stuff. Funny I was excited to see what official Honda livery the car would have this year.

[ioan]

The demise of Dave Richards was the moment of their downfall, that's clear.
What isn't clear is why did they do that?
Why kick out DR and keep a clown like Fry? Never understood this one.

[Dave B]

I'm waiting to see how long it is before somebody blames Villeneuve's departure for all Honda's woes....

[Knock-on]

I'm waiting to see how long it is before somebody blames Villeneuve's departure for all Honda's woes....


:laugh: Naughty, naughty :laugh:

(Enter Uncle Fousto stage Left)

[Knock-on]

Here we go. Someone wheeled the ageing Canadian rocker out.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72347

[Bagwan]

I'm waiting to see how long it is before somebody blames Villeneuve's departure for all Honda's woes....

Since the cowboy isn't around , I'll sub for him .

Davy-boy brought a storm into the team , and it was his arrival , not his departure , that blew Hondas chances .
While replacing Pollack was a good idea , doing it without any warning at the press conference was never going to create anything but fear and loathing in the team .
Willis was on board to fix the Reynard nightmare the team had been , and Dave walked in .

It would be just like Dave to be sniffing around , with the team starting to talk about potential again .
He's just sold a share to some Middle Easterners , so backing should be in place .

The image of a vulture comes to mind . Fousto would understand the reference and surely agree .

[V12]

Funny enough, I remember posting on this very forum in 2004 (well the old incarnation) when the Honda take over and Prodrive/Richards departure was announced.

I remember saying that BAR (as it was then) risked going the way of Jaguar (who had just quit). Most disagreed saying Honda != Ford and I guess over 2005, 2006 they looked to have been right.

But I guess I was proved right, and I take no pleasure in that. A race-savvy, successful, proven person/organisation was replaced by various layers of corporate management, just like when Ford took over Stewart (who, like pre-Honda ownership BAR, were a promising team threatening to crack the top 3/4 teams.

Same starting point, same actions, same result.

[Roamy]

Since the cowboy isn't around , I'll sub for him .

Davy-boy brought a storm into the team , and it was his arrival , not his departure , that blew Hondas chances .
While replacing Pollack was a good idea , doing it without any warning at the press conference was never going to create anything but fear and loathing in the team .
Willis was on board to fix the Reynard nightmare the team had been , and Dave walked in .

It would be just like Dave to be sniffing around , with the team starting to talk about potential again .
He's just sold a share to some Middle Easterners , so backing should be in place .

The image of a vulture comes to mind . Fousto would understand the reference and surely agree .

We all know that changes in F1 are not done overnight. The brief success of
Honda was a development effort by Willis, Clear and JV. Prix Richard immediately destroyed the finally found continuity in the team. So the results are not a big surprise. I recall Clear and JV rebuilding the ass end of the car during the season where JV announced the car was not born "well".
This was before the Willis car arrived.

Many of you continue to rag on JV despite of the clear track that has shown the opposite.

Thanks Bag - one of the few that understands car development.

Look how long it is taking Red Bull. - BMW.

[BDunnell]

A race-savvy, successful, proven person/organisation was replaced by various layers of corporate management, just like when Ford took over Stewart (who, like pre-Honda ownership BAR, were a promising team threatening to crack the top 3/4 teams.

Worse still, those were various layers of Japanese corporate management, for, as plenty of examples prove, the best Japanese efforts in motorsport have all had an already successful European firm like Prodrive at the helm.

[jens]

Back in 2004 I couldn't simply understand, why Button wanted to leave the rising BAR team, where he had basically #1 status, and they were performing better than Williams. Maybe all this mess about leaving or not created some extra strain inside the team too by destabilizing them, although the Richards -> Fry transition has had obviously more importance.

[V12]

Yeah there are still plenty (me included) who think a works backed Williams-Toyota would be far superior to anything those two teams are currently coming up with.

That said, it's going to be a shame to lose Honda altogether, their pedigree as an engine manufacturer in F1 is probably only bettered by Ferrari and Ford/Cosworth (who have already disappeared, Max's standard-engine-compromise thing not withstanding), and I'm sure their engines in the back of a car produced by a proper race team would be a real force to be reckoned with.

[BDunnell]

Back in 2004 I couldn't simply understand, why Button wanted to leave the rising BAR team, where he had basically #1 status, and they were performing better than Williams. Maybe all this mess about leaving or not created some extra strain inside the team too by destabilizing them, although the Richards -> Fry transition has had obviously more importance.

And I think Button was badly advised.

[ioan]

And I think Button was badly advised.

Williams didn't set the world alight either since 2004, at least Button made more money joining Honda than if he stayed with Williams who isn't known to be a one of those teams that pay amazing amounts of money, not even to WDCs. He also became a race winner with Honda, even if it was a mistake of Goddess Fortuna IMO.

[BDunnell]

Williams didn't set the world alight either since 2004, at least Button made more money joining Honda than if he stayed with Williams who isn't known to be a one of those teams that pay amazing amounts of money, not even to WDCs. He also became a race winner with Honda, even if it was a mistake of Goddess Fortuna IMO.

I really meant that he was badly advised in terms of the situation ending up in utter confusion, rather than Honda being a worse choice. However, in truth, I think Button would have done equally as well over time with Williams as he did with Honda, and probably better in 2008, so things probably evened themselves out over time.

[ioan]

I really meant that he was badly advised in terms of the situation ending up in utter confusion, rather than Honda being a worse choice. However, in truth, I think Button would have done equally as well over time with Williams as he did with Honda, and probably better in 2008, so things probably evened themselves out over time.

I agree, it could have went that way.

[rickos]

I'm waiting to see how long it is before somebody blames Villeneuve's departure for all Honda's woes....

Dave, how many times will it take you to pass this test? Please pay attention this time or else the dunce cap will have to be super-glued on permanently.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=23418

[Bagwan]

Rickos , nice to see you drop in .

I won't be surprised if Richards ends up in charge again .
I think that would be great .

Fry is in full-on sales mode , hyping hard .

You think Honda's going to want to see someone take the helm and succeed right after the failed ?
They sure didn't want the Super friends beating them .
They built that team to save face , and scuttled it to save face again .

Sell it to Dave Richards , all but the steering wheel .

[trumperZ06]

Rickos , nice to see you drop in .

I won't be surprised if Richards ends up in charge again .
I think that would be great .

Fry is in full-on sales mode , hyping hard .

You think Honda's going to want to see someone take the helm and succeed right after the failed ?
They sure didn't want the Super friends beating them .
They built that team to save face , and scuttled it to save face again .

Sell it to Dave Richards , all but the steering wheel .

;) David Richards is too smart to put his own money into a Formula One team.


:dozey: Sorry Baggie, Any other ideas ???

[Roamy]

screw Prix richards and the horse he rode in on

I wonder if Honda will sell engines to the new buyer?
Well figure out which country is not bankrupt - that be canada but what the hell to they sell to the world to spend that much money.

[Roamy]

Prix Richard is in the no 1 seat to buy

[Bagwan]

;) David Richards is too smart to put his own money into a Formula One team.


:dozey: Sorry Baggie, Any other ideas ???

He's got some new investors......didn't you hear ?

[Bagwan]

screw Prix richards and the horse he rode in on

I wonder if Honda will sell engines to the new buyer?
Well figure out which country is not bankrupt - that be canada but what the hell to they sell to the world to spend that much money.

We'll sell you some tar , and some gas , and some trees , and some Blackberries .

[trumperZ06]

He's got some new investors......didn't you hear ?

;) Hhmmm... David Richard's is gonna buy Honda's Formula One Team with...

O P M ???

Other People's Money !!!

:D Well now... hasn't Richard's done that before, with Aston Martin ?

:dozey: I'm sure Honda would be pleased to sell their F-1 team to any responsible group... able to fund the opperation !!!

[tsarcasm]

maybe that Russian could ask his dad for a billion to make TVR F1

[PolePosition_1]

I must be honest, I like Nick Fry, he's such a positive guy, and comes across very likable, but you have to admit, his performance has been absolutely hopeless. I never really understood the reasoning behind removing Dave Richards when he was getting such good results.

Personally, I think its all down to Honda top management, and even then not even Honda F1 Racing management, but Honda top top management.

When they took over, they wanted to implement their way of doing things, and it just never worked.

Honda top brass wanted to make their F1 programme profitable to the company, in using it as a training ground for up and coming staff. They wanted something to show for their investment, but for a successful F1 operation, you need consistancy, and the best people there. Winning must take priority, and to me (from what I've read), they wanted to have their cake AND eat it so to speak.

I've also read rumours that there was a lot of red tape, which reduced the efficiency of the team, decisions couldn't be made and implemented within a day, they'd have to go to Tokyo HQ to get approval, limiting their efficiency.

On top of that, despite the team being based at heart of British Motor-racing industry, it had large Japanese influences, and with all due respect to their culture, which I've experienced and enjoyed, and highly respect, I don't think it works too well within F1 success.

If you look at Toyota, who basically got their team up and running, with something like 95% Toyota staff with no F1 experience, they aint been able to establish themselves at the front, with only glimpses of success, and even then, this has involved them accepting the "western" approach, and hiring of experienced F1 staff.

This alone highlights Honda's flawed approach, of using Honda F1 Racing as a training ground for staff, you need experience and talent which is specific to Formula 1.

I think F1 is a very special industry, this can be highlighted by the cluster we have in the UK. With Ferrari being the exception of continued success outside this region. Even then, you could argue much of this success came from Bennetton, whose main players moved to Ferrari, and undoubtable took this approach over there.

[Tallgeese]

I hope that the team do find a buyer & am actually sad to see Honda go. Then again with Ross Brawn & the investments placed by Honda (not to mention a discount price) suggests that they stand a decent change. Without looking at Honda's balance sheet, my guess is that buy dropping the F1 team they are really working against their better interests for the sake of the shareholders. Without wishing to get too technical, Japanese firms tend to be heavily debt financed in order to increase profitability & at times of recession they tend to be the first to suffer. Honda is no exception so that extra $300 million will probably be a minor contributing to debt servicing at times of declining car sales.