FIA makes standard Cosworth offer

[ArrowsFA1]

FIA president Max Mosley has moved in the wake of Honda's Formula One exit to lay out the terms for a drastically cheaper engine offer from Cosworth that will help reduce costs in the sport.
On the same day that F1 lost a major manufacturer, Mosley has written to teams explaining his vision for how a deal with the famed Northampton engine supplier can help bring budgets down substantially.
He has revealed that the FIA are now in exclusive talks with Cosworth about a deal for teams from 2010 that could result in an annual engine and transmission cost of less than £6 million.
Mosley says that as long as four teams sign up for a supply of engines from 2010, then the annual charge for a three-year deal will be just £5.49 million - with an upfront fee of £1.68 million. If more teams sign up, then the cost will be reduced further.
In a letter sent to F1 teams on Friday, just a few hours after Honda cited the worldwide financial downturn as forcing it to quit F1, Mosley outlined his plans for a standard engine - and made it clear that manufacturers would not be forced to run them.
The tender process for standard engines ended last month and after evaluating the options, the FIA has opted to press ahead with Cosworth.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72324

[Dave B]

I suppose that IF were are going to have a standard engine forced upon us (and I still refuse to believe it), Cosworth are the best option.

They've got a long and noble history of providing good quality race engines; and not being associated with any current team will help quell accusations of bias.

[christophulus]

It's an interesting suggestion, particularly the point where they've specifically stated they aren't going to force this on the teams. Even if just one team signs up (and I'm putting my bet on Williams) it'll still surely save them money?

[Andrewmcm]

Ferrari-Cosworth doesn't really have much of a ring to it though......

[V12]

Although the idea of a standard engine had prompted quit threats from several manufacturers, Mosley has clarified that teams will not be forced to run the power units if they do not want to.

THIS makes so much sense....and what should have been suggested instead of the "standard engine" in the first place.



.....


However, he has made it clear that any engine that car makers produce themselves will not be allowed to have better performance than the standard unit.

THIS however...is a horribly, horribly grey area and should be completely forgotten about...we're getting into NASCARisation territory here.


Personally I think a "standard" Cosworth should be made available for private teams wishing to get onto the back of the F1 grid (better than not at all, right?) on a budget, while letting the better funded teams get on with it....it's the way F1 worked for so long!

[Tazio]

Max has made a searching, and and honest moral proposal.
Ferrari won't buy it.
Next?

[BDunnell]

Personally I think a "standard" Cosworth should be made available for private teams wishing to get onto the back of the F1 grid (better than not at all, right?) on a budget, while letting the better funded teams get on with it....it's the way F1 worked for so long!

But who is to say that Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid? I could see those teams who don't want to run a standard engine being up in arms, and quite rightly.

The equalisation idea is absolutely absurd and has no place in F1.

[V12]

On second thoughts....will the people on here who suggested the original forced "standard engine" proposal was merely a ploy to get the teams to accept something less drastic...stand up and take a bow? :laugh:

[BDunnell]

Max has made a searching, and and honest moral proposal.
Ferrari won't buy it.
Next?

But Ferrari wouldn't have to buy it, and I hope they stand their ground.

If Cosworth can produce this package so cheaply, other engine suppliers/manufacturers ought to be able to.

[Dave B]

On second thoughts....will the people on here who suggested the original forced "standard engine" proposal was merely a ploy to get the teams to accept something less drastic...stand up and take a bow? :laugh:
:wave:

I stand by that view. There's still plenty of time for the teams and FIA to agree on drastic cost-cutting measures which would allow them to continue producing their own drivetrains and keeping F1 vaguely recognisable as the same sport we've known for half a century.

[V12]

But who is to say that Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid? I could see those teams who don't want to run a standard engine being up in arms, and quite rightly.

The equalisation idea is absolutely absurd and has no place in F1.

Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid because they wouldn't have the funding of the manufacturer teams. And if they could despite that obstacle then they deserve any success they get - it's what motor sport should be all about - look at the DFV era.

What I'm saying is that free development should be allowed, but a cheaper customer option such as this could be great for getting more private teams onto the back of the grid. Max, that is where your "cost cutting" should be aimed, not a communist style "everyone is equal (of course with some more equal than others) proposal.

[BDunnell]

:wave:

I stand by that view. There's still plenty of time for the teams and FIA to agree on drastic cost-cutting measures which would allow them to continue producing their own drivetrains and keeping F1 vaguely recognisable as the same sport we've known for half a century.

Hence my comment above.

[Knock-on]

There is no point for a manufacturer to stay in F1.

Even if they decide to build their Cosworth rebadged engine or continue to use their own one, it will have to have identical power output at most with the Cosworth unit.

If they use their own, they will have to use the standard transmission.

Bye, bye Toyota, mercedes, BMW etc.

Where do Ferrari go?

[BDunnell]

Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid because they wouldn't have the funding of the manufacturer teams. And if they could despite that obstacle then they deserve any success they get - it's what motor sport should be all about - look at the DFV era.

Agreed, but...



What I'm saying is that free development should be allowed, but a cheaper customer option such as this could be great for getting more private teams onto the back of the grid.

...what happens when they get onto the back of the grid? Yes, progress can be made in other areas of car development, but in order to move up the grid it follows that they would need to get a better engine, which would cost more, and then we go into the same spiral of increasing costs - unless other suppliers can deliver an engine package for the same price as Cosworth, which is surely the best solution to the problem.

I think this could prove a clever move by the FIA, and maybe the right one in terms of bringing about cost reductions without enforcing a standard engine.

[BDunnell]

There is no point for a manufacturer to stay in F1.

Even if they decide to build their Cosworth rebadged engine or continue to use their own one, it will have to have identical power output at most with the Cosworth unit.

If they use their own, they will have to use the standard transmission.

Bye, bye Toyota, mercedes, BMW etc.

Where do Ferrari go?

They have to make a better engine than the Cosworth 'standard one'. If there is a budget cap on engine development, they would just have to do so within those confines; if not, it's up to them how much they spend. I think this proposal still allows room for Ferrari and their ilk.

[Knock-on]

They have to make a better engine than the Cosworth 'standard one'. If there is a budget cap on engine development, they would just have to do so within those confines; if not, it's up to them how much they spend. I think this proposal still allows room for Ferrari and their ilk.

You can spend £100M on developing a Ferrari but it will not be allowed to have better performance than the Cossie (allegedly)

It also has to be coupled with the standard drive further limiting it.

Think about it as 7 of 9 operating independently while still part of the collective :laugh:

[Tazio]

But who is to say that Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid? I could see those teams who don't want to run a standard engine being up in arms, and quite rightly.

The equalisation idea is absolutely absurd and has no place in F1.Once again BDun' You are spot on :up:

[Tazio]

Think about it as 7 of 9 operating independently while still part of the collective :laugh:
In the words of the most hated man of the 21st century
"BRING IT ON"

[BDunnell]

You can spend £100M on developing a Ferrari but it will not be allowed to have better performance than the Cossie (allegedly)

And that's the bit I object to.

[truefan72]

F1 is finished if they go ahead with this solution. As many have said. It will surely mean the end for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and possibly Ferrari, who have already threatened to leave the sport.

This is like watching a slow agonizing death for the sport. My only hope is that they all pull out and form their own racing series. It might not be called F1, but we will surely know it as the pinnacle of motorsports.

F1 had a solid 70 year run and now like relics of the past will fade away. Sadly not by the evolutuion of sports/entertainment but by the greed and absurdity of 2 men. one blinded by greed, the other deranged by his own dellusions of granduer.

As I said I don't mind the sport going on hiatus for 1-2 years as these teams figure out a new league and decent regulations. Deep down I got to beleive that McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Williams, Renault and RBR are far from pleased with the state of affairs and have just about had it with the whole circus.

[BDunnell]

F1 is finished if they go ahead with this solution. As many have said. It will surely mean the end for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and possibly Ferrari, who have already threatened to leave the sport.

But none of those teams would have to go down the 'standard' engine route.

[Tazio]

F1 is finished if they go ahead with this solution. As many have said. It will surely mean the end for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault and possibly Ferrari, who have already threatened to leave the sport.

This is like watching a slow agonizing death for the sport. My only hope is that they all pull out and form their own racing series. It might not be called F1, but we will surely know it as the pinnacle of motorsports.

F1 had a solid 70 year run and now like relics of the past will fade away. Sadly not by the evolutuion of sports/entertainment but by the greed and absurdity of 2 men. one blinded by greed, the other deranged by his own dellusions of granduer.

As I said I don't mind the sport going on hiatus for 1-2 years as these teams figure out a new league and decent regulations. Deep down I got to beleive that McLaren, Ferrari, BMW, Williams, Renault and RBR are far from pleased with the state of affairs and have just about had it with the whole circus.T.F. I respect your insight here! However, how can you blame Max and Bernie
for the loss of the most lucrative cash influx in F1 evaporating?

Of course I'm referring to tobacco advertising. I do agree it is a slow and agonizing death.
Bernie is running out of Kingdoms that allow tobacco advertisement in any form. And accept it as a choice
IMO a very bad choice. But Cigaretts never did anything for me( with the exception of providing financing for the sport I treasure. I think all the cars should be required to advertise in bold graphics
If you want to risk a short and lethargic life ending prematurely in heart attack, stroke, or cancer SMOKE _______________Brand! :laugh:

[ioan]

If max gives up also on imposing a standard gearbox than it's OK.

I suppose that they will all have time to develop the engines along with Cosworth and than will come the specification freeze.

The part with the gearbox is however a bit complicated because along with the engine the gearbox is a stressed part of the chassis and thus plays a huge role in designing the car.
I don't see the manufacturers buy into this either.

Having cheap engines and gearboxes for the privateers is excellent, but let the once who think they can do it themselves to go ahead as they wish.

[BDunnell]

Having cheap engines and gearboxes for the privateers is excellent, but let the once who think they can do it themselves to go ahead as they wish.

Within cost restrictions, surely?

[V12]

Within cost restrictions, surely?

I don't see why. I think the purpose of any "cost cutting" should be reducing the cost required to compete, which this low-budget Cosworth would do. Trying to reduce the cost required to win - no doubt the stated aim of Max's original "standard engine", is more pointless than p*ssing into the wind. You'll always have your haves and have-nots in any area of life, and F1 is no exception.

[BDunnell]

I don't see why. I think the purpose of any "cost cutting" should be reducing the cost required to compete, which this low-budget Cosworth would do. Trying to reduce the cost required to win - no doubt the stated aim of Max's original "standard engine", is more pointless than p*ssing into the wind. You'll always have your haves and have-nots in any area of life, and F1 is no exception.

I agree with your last sentence, but if the overall result is to create a more 'sustainable' F1, at the moment there is a need for costs to be reduced. As I said, the Cosworth engine would be all very well for new entrants, but where do they go from there without spending pots more cash? Then, when the next big economic downturn hits, the sport will end up in the same downward spiral because costs have risen too much.

[V12]

I agree with your last sentence, but if the overall result is to create a more 'sustainable' F1, at the moment there is a need for costs to be reduced. As I said, the Cosworth engine would be all very well for new entrants, but where do they go from there without spending pots more cash? Then, when the next big economic downturn hits, the sport will end up in the same downward spiral because costs have risen too much.


Well if they don't have the big pots of cash to spend, then they'd continue using the Cosworth, and likely continue to reside in the bottom half of the field, is the harsh reality of the situation. Then as big-spending manufacturers/drinks companies/Indian billionaires (delete as appropriate) get bored/decide to invest elsewhere/realise they can't afford it anymore (delete as appropriate), then these private teams using the stock engine will by definition get further towards the front.

I admit it does risk creating a two-tier F1, but I'd find that situation, with 24 cars, infinitely more preferable to the spectre of fields of 18 and possibly less that we are currently faced with. I would also prefer it to a field of 24 evenly-matched cars with common components, I guess that's just the purist in me talking.

When I first started watching F1, that's kind of what we had. The top teams with huge tobacco sponsorship and/or a competitive works engine deal, with the bottom half of the field using customer Cosworth or Judd engines, sprinkled with a few uncompetitive "works" engines e.g. Lamborghini.

And I for one loved it, even if we had some teams 4 or 5 seconds off the pace and the same few teams winning races. Because despite this year's field being one of the closest ever in terms of time differential, what do we have? Yep, the same few teams winning races. What would we have with a few free-spending top teams supplemented by a gaggle of smaller outfits using a standard Cosworth engines? The same few teams winning races.

I think we've been a bit spoiled by the "closeness" of F1 this year due to the presence of 8 wealthy manufactuers/drinks/companies/Indian billionaires all pumping money into their team(s), with the other team, a multiple title winning independent reduced to a near backmarker as a result of this. Force India are currently regarded as F1's "worst" team, but the margin they are off the ultimate pace by would have seen them as a regular contender for points in the 90's. THIS is unsustainable.

They could even make any private teams (and their drivers) using the Cosworth eligible for a little sub-championship, much like the Clark/Chapman cups for normally-aspirated cars in 1987. I know it only lasted one year, but the FIA assumed that equalisation measures would make N/As competitive with the turbos for 1988...what happened? McLaren-Honda (turbo) won 15 races that year, with Ferrari (also turbo) fluking the other one. Moral of the story: equalisation never works as intended! And of course for 1989, turbos were banned.

In fact they could open up the whole "standard engine" idea to multiple independent engine manufacturers, e.g. Cosworth, Judd, Ilmor, AER, Mecachrome etc. whereby they agree to supply a private F1 team with an engine to within a certain price cap. That might kill the whole economy-of-scale argument that is help driving the cost of the Cosworth proposal down, and I could live without that, but an idea might be to make these engines eligible for GP2 (or even Max's new F2!), with the dual benefit of making GP2/F2 multi-make while increasing their customer base.

Or in fact they could keep GP2 single-engine (not what I'd prefer, but no loss on what we currently have), AND make these engines F1-eligible and supplied to the "second-division" F1 teams...saving costs even further!

Sorry for the long post kinda went off on a whole thinking-out-loud trip, with some suggestions that may not be practical, but I think that's what the FIA and teams need to do, some real thinking outside of the box that may see them stumble on a great idea, rather than driving the old tired mantra of equalisation, standardisation and spec-ing equipment, which may saves costs but IMO flies right in the face of motor racing's ethos.

[wmcot]

Ferrari-Cosworth doesn't really have much of a ring to it though......

Nor does BMW-Cosworth, Toyota-Cosworth, Ferrari-Cosworth, Renault-Cosworth, or even McLaren-Cosworth. And why would any manufacturer make their own engine if it cannot exceed the Cosworth's specs? Kiss F1 good-bye, boys...

BTW, Ferrari will be fine supplying spec F2 cars.

[LeonBrooke]

But who is to say that Cosworth couldn't develop that engine into the best on the grid? I could see those teams who don't want to run a standard engine being up in arms, and quite rightly.

The equalisation idea is absolutely absurd and has no place in F1.

We're past the time of ideals. I agree that equalisation shouldn't have a place in F1, but F1 needs the Cosworth option and it needs to be competitive.

What I read was that the deadline for signing up for 2010 was 11th December 2008. That's absurd - it gave the teams a week to decide what they were going to do. I wouldn't be surprised if none go for it because Max made it impossible for them to decide like that.

[tsarcasm]

I'm torn. Frankly I think it's all BravoSierra.... But costs are out of hand (due to inconsistent rules). This all happened before, were not 9 out of 13 teams in the 70's running the Cosworth/Ford DFV.

Max worded his letter like a good attorney would. "if they choose" "have option to" This allows Ferrari to cast, manufacture and machine their own engine. Granted a spec. transmission is required (why after billions have been spent on DSG, they will be on a shelf.....) Further Max's plan for Cosworth states nothing about KERS. Bueller???

[Knock-on]

I'm torn. Frankly I think it's all BravoSierra....

Sierra. They're talking about running Sierra engines :s hock:

Well, I've got a sweet little old 205 pinto in my Super 7. Could this herald the return of Team Knock-on into F1 :D

[AndyL]

Sierra. They're talking about running Sierra engines :s hock:

Well, I've got a sweet little old 205 pinto in my Super 7. Could this herald the return of Team Knock-on into F1 :D

:) At least there shouldn't be too much trouble making them last three Grand Prix weekends

[Knock-on]

:) At least there shouldn't be too much trouble making them last three Grand Prix weekends

After I've fitted it with a turbo, nitrous and hidden them under a red prancing horse paint scheme, I wouldn't be so sure :laugh:

[tsarcasm]

BravoSierra=BullSh*t

f1 w/spec motors :(

[christophulus]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413

Williams, Force India, Red Bull, STR and... Renault seem interested. Maybe a Renault-Cosworth wasn't too far fetched after all!

The good/bad news therefore is that this cheap engine supply looks to be a reality.

[Andrewmcm]

Didn't almost everyone run around with Cosworth DFVs for god knows how many years? Is the only difference between then and now that the idea is being forced on people rather than it being available for anyone who wants it?

[jens]

I have noticed that a lot of parallels have been drawn between 70's and nowadays, a'la "back then almost everyone was running with Cossies, why not now?" Back then basically everyone except for Ferrari were private teams, if F1 can reach a similar situation in the next few years again, then a "standard Cosworth" sounds more logical.

As for equalizing, this continually sounds strange in a progressive series like F1. And FIA will be very strict in imposing this, because Cosworth should be currently a private engine manufacturer and I doubt they would be ready to compete against the development pace of car manufacturers (even during 2006 Cosworth's performance during the season dropped significantly compared to others). However, considering that even under the 'freeze' conditions engines are arguably still being developed (hence Renault's complaints for lack of power for example), then I wonder, which means will FIA implement to avoid any engine improvements to avoid Cosworth dropping behind others.

[BDunnell]

Didn't almost everyone run around with Cosworth DFVs for god knows how many years? Is the only difference between then and now that the idea is being forced on people rather than it being available for anyone who wants it?

And the fact that F1 now views itself as being beyond such things.

[Bagwan]

Didn't almost everyone run around with Cosworth DFVs for god knows how many years? Is the only difference between then and now that the idea is being forced on people rather than it being available for anyone who wants it?

Cossies were used because they were the best option , fast and reliable .
People ran them because they wanted to .

Renault and Flavio are only agreeing to this because they don't see a point in putting money into developing an engine that will have an imposed limit .
Why bother competing in a non-competition ?

Power should be open . It should not be regulated .
At most , a rev limit should be imposed .

I'm sure , in the day , there were many a Ferrari mechanic that secretly wished his team had a DFV , not that they ever would admit it . It's just not worth the horses head at the foot of the bed .