Profitable.....hopefully by 2013

[SarahFan]

Quote:
IRL could fold by 2013

Tony George wearing a hat with what is beyond a doubt the goofiest slogan in all of sports. People have been known to fall off their chair with laughter when they see it. Actually, the only person fit to wear such a hat is George himself because he owns Indy. Regardless, the phrase is ludicrous.
Day one of the ninth annual SportsBusiness Daily/SportsBusiness Journal Motorsports Marketing Forum at the Westin at Times Square in N.Y. yesterday featured a one-on-one with IRL CEO Tony George. A few key quotes by George, including the fact that he is prepared to fold the IRL if it does not turn a profit by 2013:
Q: How many races will there be on the 2010 schedule?

George: Sixteen to 20 is a comfortable number for what we do. There will be opportunities for us to do more international outreach. ... Drivers want to drive every week. Assuming the operating budgets and sponsorships are there, we could do 20-22 races a year.

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013

[Wilf]

Quote:
Tony George wearing a hat with what is beyond a doubt the goofiest slogan in all of sports. People have been known to fall off their chair with laughter when they see it. Actually, the only person fit to wear such a hat is George himself because he owns Indy. Regardless, the phrase is ludicrous.

What was the slogan? Do you have pictures of the hat or maybe the audience rolling on the floor laughing?

[garyshell]

What was the slogan? Do you have pictures of the hat or maybe the audience rolling on the floor laughing?


It was an "I am Indy" hat.

Gary

[mike15]

The IRL is only good through the IMS anniversary celebration. After that there is no incentive to keep the IRL going, at least out of TG's pocket.

[The instant classic]

hate to say, i cant see indycar becomming profitable befor then,
right now i wolud split indycar and champcar, and have 2 series run under TG, as the onwer as he is now,,and have 2 races going, and only race togerther, at the indy 500 and the last race homestead, and for the final race, make the top 5 in indycar points, and the top 5 in champcar points, and put them into a 10 car points race, for homestead, erase the points, for all top 10 guys, and have a 10 car championship shoot out, i wolud think ratings and money wolud go up? post more later guys my laptop battery is almost dead

[Chris R]

For the IRL to be profitable by 2013 several things will have to happen:

1 - The economy will have to improve dramatically (it probably will, but might not).
2 - The Vs. deal will have to be a real winner (likely mediocre at best)
3 - Fans will needs to flock to the sport in droves (unless F-1 or NASCAR implode or they pull a real rabbit out of the hat and get people excited about something it seems unlikely)
4- Sponsors return because items 1, 2 & 3 happened....

I hate to be a pessimist -- but I do not think the foundation is there to be profitable..... If the inference that TG would pull the plug after 2013 is right than I think AOWR has a bleak future....

[ykiki]

hate to say, i cant see indycar becomming profitable befor then,
right now i wolud split indycar and champcar, and have 2 series run under TG, as the onwer as he is now,,and have 2 races going, and only race togerther, at the indy 500 and the last race homestead, and for the final race, make the top 5 in indycar points, and the top 5 in champcar points, and put them into a 10 car points race, for homestead, erase the points, for all top 10 guys, and have a 10 car championship shoot out, i wolud think ratings and money wolud go up? post more later guys my laptop battery is almost dead

Not sure if this would be feasible, since you'd need twice the teams, twice the budgets, twice the sponsors, etc.

I can see extra teams interested in a "one-off" shot at Indy, but where how would 2 series be supported in this economy?

[NickFalzone]

I tend to agree with Kevin Lee (trackside, IMS, etc.), it was an off the cuff remark that is being blown out of proportion. If the series, along with Indy, is in serious financial straits by the 2013 season, I could see some drastic changes. I would also challenge anyone here to give a specific # as to how deep in the red the IRL is. You just don't know, so to say the series in 2013 will still be a money loser is based on little to no information. Maybe they're getting close to breaking even now? I don't know one way or another, except they're probably not raking in the profit:

-----

Our first off-season podcast is now posted. It was recorded on Wednesday afternoon, December 3rd. Curt and I will record these every couple of weeks, and possibly more often when something significant breaks. They will normally be between 10-30 minutes in length. In this edition we discuss team economics, Ethanol, Helio and the VERSUS booth lineup.

In another matter that will be worth discussing in our next podcast...There has been much discussion in the open wheel racing world of a quote from Tony George in Street & Smith's Sports Business Daily (http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=sbd.preview&articleID=125958), regarding the future of the Indy Racing League. The meat of the text is copied below:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=sbd.preview&articleID=125958

Q: How many races will there be on the 2010 schedule?

George: Sixteen to 20 is a comfortable number for what we do. There will be opportunities for us to do more international outreach. ... Drivers want to drive every week. Assuming the operating budgets and sponsorships are there, we could do 20-22 races a year.

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.

Now, to my commentary. The quote about 2013 is eliciting some gloom and doom reaction. My guess is it was an off-the-cuff throw away remark, possibly made in jest. The Indianapolis 500 produces an enormous amount of revenue and as long as it's doing well (regardless of what some might say, around 250,000 spectators is doing well), there will be a series featuring the cars and drivers that compete in the 500. While the 500 dwarfs the significance of the season, the 500 and its teams need a series. It's in Tony George's best interest to make sure that happens. That said, still an interesting quote and I'm sure we'll get a follow-up explanation from George or IMS in the near future. If not, I'll follow up before our next Trackside podcast in a week and a half.

[Cart750hp]

2013?

That's nice of King George of being straight-forward about IRL, teams and fans. At least he's giving everyone an option if thing doesn't go well in the future. I'll take this option than just lying on the tip of his tongue saying the series is all well yet the series is folding. And on top of this, at least, teams, drivers and other employees has to look for another option if they know the series is still hasn't done good by 2013.

[downtowndeco]

Come on, don't be ridiculous. It was an off hand response to a loaded question. I'm sure it was said with a smile/smirk on his face.

And another thing. Five years is a long, long ways away. Five years ago CC fans were dancing in the streets because KK & Co. had just been able to buy the remains of CART cheap in a sweet heart deal. Little did they know that all they "won" was a big headache & a huge stack of bills that only got larger by the day.

A lot can happen in five years. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TG to fold the IRL anytime soon if I were you. : )




2013?

That's nice of King George of being straight-forward about IRL, teams and fans. At least he's giving everyone an option if thing doesn't go well in the future. I'll take this option than just lying on the tip of his tongue saying the series is all well yet the series is folding. And on top of this, at least, teams, drivers and other employees has to look for another option if they know the series is still hasn't done good by 2013.

[SarahFan]

Come on, don't be ridiculous. It was an off hand response to a loaded question. I'm sure it was said with a smile/smirk on his face.

And another thing. Five years is a long, long ways away. Five years ago CC fans were dancing in the streets because KK & Co. had just been able to buy the remains of CART cheap in a sweet heart deal. Little did they know that all they "won" was a big headache & a huge stack of bills that only got larger by the day.

A lot can happen in five years. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for TG to fold the IRL anytime soon if I were you. : )


who is being ridiculous here?

a direct question was asked and answered...

it has nothing to do with CC or KK

it has everything to do with TG and the IRL though.... to bad your not willing to discuss it

[Jag_Warrior]

What is this, The World According to Sarah Palin? Only there would this be a loaded question:


Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.

Pretty basic, fundamental Q&A, IMO. No "gotcha journalism" there that I can see.

[downtowndeco]

The loaded part of the question was to ask what was going to happen five years from now. Who the hell can say? Six months ago who would have thought gas would be $1.53 a gallon? Five years ago who would have thought we would have an African American president? Two years ago who could have predicted NASCAR hitting a hard wall and potentially losing money?

He asked an unanswerable question & got an off the cuff flippant response. Remember how KK & GF answered the same question, "When will cc be profitable?". "As early as next year...." How did that work out?

Again. Don't read too much into his answer.



What is this, The World According to Sarah Palin? Only there would this be a loaded question:



Pretty basic, fundamental Q&A, IMO. No "gotcha journalism" there that I can see.

[downtowndeco]

As a reminder...I'm not dodging certain posters, I'm ignoring them...


"This message is hidden because Ken is on your ignore list."

[SarahFan]

The loaded part of the question was to ask what was going to happen five years from now. Who the hell can say? Six months ago who would have thought gas would be $1.53 a gallon? Five years ago who would have thought we would have an African American president? Two years ago who could have predicted NASCAR hitting a hard wall and potentially losing money?

He asked an unanswerable question & got an off the cuff flippant response. Remember how KK & GF answered the same question, "When will cc be profitable?". "As early as next year...." How did that work out?

Again. Don't read too much into his answer.

um hello..... if anyone knows whether the IRL is a position to continue operating at a loss the next 5 years it is in fact TG....

this has nothing to do with a loaded question or predicting the future

had the question been asked of Robin Miller or yellowcardude your point holds water...

but it was asked of the founder, operator and FINANCIER of the IRL

[garyshell]

um hello..... if anyone knows whether the IRL is a position to continue operating at a loss the next 5 years it is in fact TG....

this has nothing to do with a loaded question or predicting the future

had the question been asked of Robin Miller or yellowcardude your point holds water...

but it was asked of the founder, operator and FINANCIER of the IRL


Has ANYONE actually heard this on tape? If not, we have NO IDEA if he was being flip, deadly serious or somewhere in between.

We all know it is IMPOSSIBLE to read someone's intent solely based on the written word. Hell, these forums are the living proof of that. How often has something been said here that the author though was being done with tongue in cheek and someone else jumped on the comment thinking it was totally serious.

Gary

[ShiftingGears]

Sounds like a lot of you are beating this one up.

[indycool]

I agree with Nick, dd, etc., that it was a throwaway quote and it's totally unpredictable what will happen five years from now because in other stories he's seemed very pleased with the progress and unification of the sport.

And you can also take the quote another way: Maybe he meant the IRL WILL be profitable by then or the planet itself will blow up, that he's determined to make it profitable by 2013.

[Lousada]

Always the motivator that Tony. Reading this makes me excited about investing in Indycar longterm.

[champcarray]

Lousada, I think you picked up on what matters most: the message Tony is sending to potential investors and participants. A statement like that can undercut a thousand positive ones...

[SarahFan]

I agree with Nick, dd, etc., that it was a throwaway quote and it's totally unpredictable what will happen five years from now because in other stories he's seemed very pleased with the progress and unification of the sport.

And you can also take the quote another way: Maybe he meant the IRL WILL be profitable by then or the planet itself will blow up, that he's determined to make it profitable by 2013.

it's no suprise you agree with them.... or that your ignoreing the realities of the qoutes..

the first was a direct question(is the IRL profitable) with a direct answer (no)....absolutly nothing throwaway about it

and the folks attempting to throw it away are those of you who are trying to paint some form of "PREDICTION" being made......which is completly false

he made no prediction whatsoever.... he is the Financier of the IRL and is clearly in a position to make a factual statement about the realities of continueing what he clearly stated is loosing venture....


now with that said I don't believe he would shut it down anymore than i believe his quotes about it all being hunky dory or Terry A's BS about increasing metrics....

[indycool]

Your last two lines make the most sense. Neither you, me, TG or TA can say right now what circumstances will be five years from now.

[SarahFan]

Your last two lines make the most sense. Neither you, me, TG or TA can say right now what circumstances will be five years from now.

wrong....TG certainly is in a position to tell us if he is willing/capable of continueing to finance the IRL if it remains in the red for another 5 years

[The instant classic]

wrong....TG certainly is in a position to tell us if he is willing/capable of continueing to finance the IRL if it remains in the red for another 5 years
very true i agree with that one,
if TG doesnt want to contine financing the IRL then the fans have a right to know, cuz then fans can look into other sports, maybe nascar or F1 etc..

[The instant classic]

Not sure if this would be feasible, since you'd need twice the teams, twice the budgets, twice the sponsors, etc.

I can see extra teams interested in a "one-off" shot at Indy, but where how would 2 series be supported in this economy?
i never did think of it that way, you got a great point,
maybe im going way way way to far off here, but if they did split and make 2 series, the champcar teams that never wanted to join indycar, may come back now, that champcar has its own series again, but maybe i think way to deep about this whole thing,

[indycool]

Well, Ken, if you want to take that TG comment to the bank for five years, guess we're destined to see more of it. BTW, what exactly are you going to do with your restaurants in 2013 if the Iraqis take over or an asteroid hits?

[SarahFan]

Well, Ken, if you want to take that TG comment to the bank for five years, guess we're destined to see more of it. BTW, what exactly are you going to do with your restaurants in 2013 if the Iraqis take over or an asteroid hits?

what in the world are you talking about....

your being rediculous and ignoreing reality...

TG made no statement about what might happen... no prediction... no estimates....no goal setting...

just 2 simple statements....'no the IRL is not profitable'... and... 'if it's not by 2013 there won't be an IRL'

now... do you want to discuss what was ACTUALLY said or make predictions... becuase those are two VEY VERY different things

[indycool]

Starter told me a long time ago not to pick the fly crap out of the pepper with you, Ken. Done.

[garyshell]

TG made no statement about what might happen...

'if it's not by 2013 there won't be an IRL'

If the above quote from TG is not about what might happen, pray tell what IS it about. As I said before you are relying on nothing but text to ascertain the character of these statements. Nothing could be more dangerous. You have no clue if he was laughing as he said it, or had a strong somber look on his face. Nor do I, but that is precisely why I am not trying to characterize these comments in any way.

How is it that you are so certain of what the actual meaning is behind these words? How is it that you think you know he wasn't laughing as he said them?

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

The loaded part of the question was to ask what was going to happen five years from now. Who the hell can say? Six months ago who would have thought gas would be $1.53 a gallon? Five years ago who would have thought we would have an African American president? Two years ago who could have predicted NASCAR hitting a hard wall and potentially losing money?

He asked an unanswerable question & got an off the cuff flippant response. Remember how KK & GF answered the same question, "When will cc be profitable?". "As early as next year...." How did that work out?

Again. Don't read too much into his answer.

It's not about what would be expected or by whom. And it has nothing to do with making predictions. George was asked two (rather simple) questions and he gave a conditional reply to the second question:

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.


I answered harder questions than that when I refinanced my house. How could anyone see this as a "loaded" question? He could just as easily have answered: "That's impossible to say. But I intend on supporting the IRL until the dawn of success arrives."

Those darn gotcha journalists...

[Jag_Warrior]

If the above quote from TG is not about what might happen, pray tell what IS it about. As I said before you are relying on nothing but text to ascertain the character of these statements. Nothing could be more dangerous. You have no clue if he was laughing as he said it, or had a strong somber look on his face. Nor do I, but that is precisely why I am not trying to characterize these comments in any way.

How is it that you are so certain of what the actual meaning is behind these words? How is it that you think you know he wasn't laughing as he said them?

Gary

What you are saying is very true, Gary. There is no way to tell what the mood was when these words were spoken. But assuming this was a "joke", could you imagine say, Rick Wagoner making such a joke? I'm not saying that the IRL is in the exact same shape as GM. But by George's own admission here, his series is still losing money. It is trying to maintain team and car count in a down economy. It is trying to attract engine manufacturers. And it has been trying to attract a title sponsor for two or three years.

If this was Tony George's idea of a joke, I think we can all agree that it was both poorly timed and executed.

[downtowndeco]

Jesus you're not serious, are you?

With that mentality I can see why some people literally believed every word that came out of the three amigo's mouths for the first year or so. Ya gotta take these things with a grain of salt & use a little common sense. If TG didn't fold the IRL when it was running in front of 5000 in Phoenix in the late 90's he sure the hell isn't going to throw in the towel now. : )

Tell you what. Since you're so sure he meant it and you're so sure that with TG running things the IRL will never be profitable why don't you set a lawn chair up on the lawn of IRL HQ and just wait for them to turn out the lights so you can start the party? : )




It's not about what would be expected or by whom. And it has nothing to do with making predictions. George was asked two (rather simple) questions and he gave a conditional reply to the second question:

Q: Is IRL profitable as a stand-alone business?

George: Not yet.

Q: In 2013?

George: It has to be or there won’t be a 2013.


I answered harder questions than that when I refinanced my house. How could anyone see this as a "loaded" question? He could just as easily have answered: "That's impossible to say. But I intend on supporting the IRL until the dawn of success arrives."

Those darn gotcha journalists...

[The instant classic]

we didnt have a economy prob back in the late 90s now did we? like we do today :)

[Jag_Warrior]

Jesus you're not serious, are you?

With that mentality I can see why some people literally believed every word that came out of the three amigo's mouths for the first year or so. Ya gotta take these things with a grain of salt & use a little common sense. If TG didn't fold the IRL when it was running in front of 5000 in Phoenix in the late 90's he sure the hell isn't going to throw in the towel now. : )

Tell you what. Since you're so sure he meant it and you're so sure that with TG running things the IRL will never be profitable why don't you set a lawn chair up on the lawn of IRL HQ and just wait for them to turn out the lights so you can start the party? : )

It's considered a sign of severe insecurity when one tries to make a counterpoint by putting (false) words in the mouth of another. Nothing personal, just sayin'. ;)

It's common knowledge in most quarters that I am not a fan of Tony George. But even I did not feel the need to put words in his mouth. I'd thank you to grant me the same courtesy.

[Jag_Warrior]

we didnt have a economy prob back in the late 90s now did we? like we do today :)

That is correct. Depending on how deep this recession becomes, most of us will probably be able to say that we have not seen anything like this in our lifetimes.

[CCWS77]

I agree that trying to predict what happens in five years is impossible and arguing about it is a waste of time. Tony's quote reveals a different piece of information which is vitally important to a discussion forum such as this one - That the IRL has not been profitable up to now. Since we know that both the IRL and Champ Car were not profitable, the difference between them then that determined who "won" the split, were which owners were going to spend more for longer to keep them going in that situation.

This is important because it sheds light on the false idea that the Indy philosophy and racing style was somehow superior and won. This tells us, more then ever, something more like CART and less like Tony's 1995 vision is needed.

[NickFalzone]

Just because CC and IRL were both unprofitable, does not mean that they were equally unprofitable. You say that TG won because he was willing to spend money longer, but may he won because with INDY he was losing less money than CC was.

And as far as IRL's lack of profitability being a sign that CART was better run... No, I'd blame it more on the 2 competing series. I do think that generally CART had stronger and smarter management, but I don't think you really have much evidence right now that TG is a failure. In fact, many things point to the opposite. Assuming it stays 1 series for the next 3-5 years, then you'll have "proof" one way or the other.

[Rex Monaco]

You have no clue if he was laughing as he said it, or had a strong somber look on his face.

Whether he was laughing or not, this is not the type of comment a leader skilled in PR should make while his company is seeking a title sponsor and trying to get auto makers to commit to his series.

Many of us already feel he is ill-equiped to lead AOWR and this comment only helps solidify that opinion.

[Rex Monaco]

Jesus you're not serious, are you?

I just spoke to Jesus, and he said he's very serious and it's time for you to start listening.

[Rex Monaco]

Since you're so sure he meant it...

Whether he was lying or not is another issue. But making this comment at a very critical juncture in IRL history, is not a very wise thing to do.

[garyshell]

What you are saying is very true, Gary. There is no way to tell what the mood was when these words were spoken. But assuming this was a "joke", could you imagine say, Rick Wagoner making such a joke? I'm not saying that the IRL is in the exact same shape as GM. But by George's own admission here, his series is still losing money. It is trying to maintain team and car count in a down economy. It is trying to attract engine manufacturers. And it has been trying to attract a title sponsor for two or three years.

If this was Tony George's idea of a joke, I think we can all agree that it was both poorly timed and executed.


I am not suggesting that it was a joke, but I sure could see it being said by Wagoner or George in a joking way, trying to add some levity to a somber conversation. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. My point was, and still is, without the nuance of tone, body language etc. we have no way to know what was really being conveyed.

Gary

[SarahFan]

my o my the spinmeisters are working overtime on this one......

[garyshell]

my o my the spinmeisters are working overtime on this one......


Hello pot, meet kettle.

Anyone who pretends to know the way in which this statement was being made is attempting to spin it to meet their own ends.

That applies equally to you Ken.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Hello pot, meet kettle.

Anyone who pretends to know the way in which this statement was being made is attempting to spin it to meet their own ends.

That applies equally to you Ken.

Gary

bs Gary .....

If you can point out a single instance where I've spun something in this thread I'd appreciate it

If not .....

[ShiftingGears]

bs Gary .....

If you can point out a single instance where I've spun something in this thread I'd appreciate it

If not .....

It's a flippant remark. So treat it as one.

[CCWS77]

Just because CC and IRL were both unprofitable, does not mean that they were equally unprofitable. You say that TG won because he was willing to spend money longer, but may he won because with INDY he was losing less money than CC was.

Who cares which was losing more at this point? That the IRL is in the red at all is a breakdown of the prior propoganda of its innate economic superiority compared to Champ Car. Economics should never again be used as a justification of why X piece of the IRL is better then X piece of Champ Car was or a justification of why we should cheer when the IRL throws pieces of CC in the trash bin.

[garyshell]

bs Gary .....

If you can point out a single instance where I've spun something in this thread I'd appreciate it

If not .....


Well let's see, maybe every single response you have made in this thread for starters. You have attempted to spin the statement, about there not being an IRL after 2013 if it is not profitable, as if it were a serious remark. The same way others, which you have taken to task, are attempting to spin it as a flippant remark.

The reality is until we hear it on tape, or if we were there to hear it ourselves, there is no way to determine what the intent was. Any attempt, from either of these positions, to assign such intent is spinning.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Well let's see, maybe every single response you have made in this thread for starters. You have attempted to spin the statement, about there not being an IRL after 2013 if it is not profitable, as if it were a serious remark. The same way others, which you have taken to task, are attempting to spin it as a flippant remark.

The reality is until we hear it on tape, or if we were there to hear it ourselves, there is no way to determine what the intent was. Any attempt, from either of these positions, to assign such intent is spinning.

Gary


come on gary....pick out a single specific post i made that represents the question and answer for anything other than exactly what was said

you can't......

[SarahFan]

spin (spn)
v. spun (spn), spin·ning, spins
v.tr.

7. To provide an interpretation of (a statement or event, for example), especially in a way meant to sway public opinion







spinmeister
A noun
1 spin doctor, spinmeister
a public relations person who tries to forestall negative publicity by publicizing a favorable interpretation of the words or actions of a company or political party or famous person; "his title is Director of Communications but he is just a spin doctor"

[Jag_Warrior]

I am not suggesting that it was a joke, but I sure could see it being said by Wagoner or George in a joking way, trying to add some levity to a somber conversation. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. My point was, and still is, without the nuance of tone, body language etc. we have no way to know what was really being conveyed.

Gary

I agree that we have no way of knowing what he intended to convey. But from the writer of the article, we get an indication of what was conveyed:

A few key quotes by George, including the fact that he is prepared to fold the IRL if it does not turn a profit by 2013...

Even fans of George admit that he has never been a very effective public speaker. Ya might say he's more like George W. Bush than George Will, when it comes to public speaking. So intended or not, the writer or interviewer apparently took George quite seriously.

[garyshell]

come on gary....pick out a single specific post i made that represents the question and answer for anything other than exactly what was said

you can't......


Ok, how about this one. You seem to think you know exactly what was said, solely from the written word. The only point I have been making is that neither you, nor the folks who say it was a "throw away" joke of a comment have a clue as to which is true by relying only on the written version of the story. No voice inflection or tone is conveyed. Without that, a very large part of the communication is lost.

We are all at the mercy of the reporter who filed the story.

Your representation of the story is such to show the outcome you want, the same is true of the folks who call it a "throw away". If you call their's spin, then by the definitions you posted what would you call your's?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ok, how about this one. You seem to think you know exactly what was said, solely from the written word.

there is nothing else.....

two simple straightforward questions two simple straight forward answers....