The Official 2007 Mergification (Wild Thoughts) Thread!

[pits4me]

I could just see the Zhuhai thread digressing into a merger debate so why not just make sure we have an official merger thread in the new forum.


AR1, eh? Mergification, yeah? Hey, I'm all ears... Oh wait, isn't that the same Mark C. / AR1, that said the merger was a done deal, last year? Yeah, yeah, I know, it was a rumor & that's why it's on the rumor page. Last year it was pretty convincing & I bought into it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, well, you get the picture. Cry wolf all you want, I'll believe it when I see it.

Jeff

I thought that all started with Curt Cavin. I figured this year he'd try to support last year's theory with the TV conflict being resolved.



Ouch, you just hit my chin with your knee.

Maybe to please some of you, Mark C needs to start a new location entitled "Wild thoughts" OR "Thinks that make ME go hmmmm". His thoughts are certainly not a rumor, unless he is claiming to be the initiator of the rumor.

Wild Thoughts? I like it.

Biggest question here --- if Zhuhai is moved to appease travelling logistics (11 hr flight?) what would enquiring fans like to see in May 2007?

1. Ethanol vs Methanol at Indy
2. Skirts vs Shirts at Indy
3. Tracy vs Castroneves - THE REMATCH

[Cart750hp]

How about saying let's hand over CC to IRL and get this thing feud for good. CC is unstable to its business and cannot compete so, I wouldn't be surprised one day KK will sell CC to another owner. I doubt Jerry would still be willing to by it unless Stoddart will buy it in a cheap price. Or just hand the series over to who we've been all calling moron and "vision" yet so far, he can keep his own series more popular than CC.

[drewdawg727]

Why would you say something like that..?

[drewdawg727]

i'll elaborate -

give me a good reason why IRL is more stable than CC. There is no competition in the IRL, especially last year when the season was dominated by four drivers. CC just went to a new chassis and is on the verge of becoming world renowned by going to places like China and Australia and Europe. If they are trying to make their series better (and are doing a damn good job of it) why on EARTH would they just fold and give their series away to TG?

[weeflyonthewall]

How about saying let's hand over CC to IRL and get this thing feud for good. CC is unstable to its business and cannot compete so, I wouldn't be surprised one day KK will sell CC to another owner. I doubt Jerry would still be willing to by it unless Stoddart will buy it in a cheap price. Or just hand the series over to who we've been all calling moron and "vision" yet so far, he can keep his own series more popular than CC.

What would a merger thread be like without these typical Doom & Gloom contributions. The 2007 posturing will just move us one step closer to 2008 when Honda has to make its decision. But why wait when the pieces seem to be falling in place.

[Cart750hp]

If they are trying to make their series better (and are doing a damn good job of it) why on EARTH would they just fold and give their series away to TG?

Since this thread was about wild thoughts, I knew mine could be the wildest. Anyhow, drewdawg, I will hold on to that question until the right time comes. The right time to ask KK himself.

[Jonesi]

What would a merger thread be like without these typical Doom & Gloom contributions. The 2007 posturing will just move us one step closer to 2008 when Honda has to make its decision. But why wait when the pieces seem to be falling in place.

The current Honda/IRL engine deal is through 2009, so any Honda decision would be for 2010.

[weeflyonthewall]

This is not a tail wagging the dog theory is it Jonesi? HPD can exercise an option any time they want. They are holding the cards, not TG.

[Hoss Ghoul]

i'll elaborate -

give me a good reason why IRL is more stable than CC. There is no competition in the IRL, especially last year when the season was dominated by four drivers. CC just went to a new chassis and is on the verge of becoming world renowned by going to places like China and Australia and Europe. If they are trying to make their series better (and are doing a damn good job of it) why on EARTH would they just fold and give their series away to TG?

4 drivers dominating compared to 1? 2 if you count A.J.?

I'm not saying CC should fold, but let's call a spade a spade, there is more competition in the IRL. Greater driver talent and team depth. That's hard for an objective observor to argue.

[Hoss Ghoul]

This is not a tail wagging the dog theory is it Jonesi? HPD can exercise an option any time they want. They are holding the cards, not TG.

This is true.

But with the Indy 500, F1, NASCAR, and a possible Moto GP race, along with more sponsors, financed teams, etc, it's hard to argue that the IRL wouldn't continue to suffer along even without Honda...hell, they've made it this far and they started with almost nothing.

The reality is both series have shown the ability to at least maintain a certain status quo, the IRL on an up trend from it's inception, Cart on a downtrend...with them basically evening out in recent years.

[drewdawg727]

I can understand that..you've proved my case! I fold!

[pvtjoker]

This is true.

But with the Indy 500, F1, NASCAR, and a possible Moto GP race, along with more sponsors, financed teams, etc, it's hard to argue that the IRL wouldn't continue to suffer along even without Honda...hell, they've made it this far and they started with almost nothing.

The reality is both series have shown the ability to at least maintain a certain status quo, the IRL on an up trend from it's inception, Cart on a downtrend...with them basically evening out in recent years.

What's Ford doing these days?

Seriously, I'm inclined to agree with you. The IRL would trudge along even without Honda (albeit in a much weaker state).

[seppefan]

How about saying let's hand over CC to IRL and get this thing feud for good. CC is unstable to its business and cannot compete so, I wouldn't be surprised one day KK will sell CC to another owner. I doubt Jerry would still be willing to by it unless Stoddart will buy it in a cheap price. Or just hand the series over to who we've been all calling moron and "vision" yet so far, he can keep his own series more popular than CC.

Agreed.

[DrDomm]

Wow, I didn't want to get involved in this silly thread, but I can't resist.

Could the IRL continue to trod along without Honda, or another manufacturer? I'm not so sure it would be as easy for them as it's been for CC. I think their teams are getting some kick-backs from Honda, and if that stopped they might jump ship or seriously downsize. And contrary to CC, TG doesn't own an engine producer. Granted he could find someone to buy engines from, but it would be a new obstacle.

Two American OW series with no manufacturer involvement? I think even TG and KK would find a way to get together then.

[cache]

This is true.

But with the Indy 500, F1, NASCAR, and a possible Moto GP race, along with more sponsors, financed teams, etc, it's hard to argue that the IRL wouldn't continue to suffer along even without Honda...hell, they've made it this far and they started with almost nothing.

The reality is both series have shown the ability to at least maintain a certain status quo, the IRL on an up trend from it's inception, Cart on a downtrend...with them basically evening out in recent years.

The IRL on an uptrend? Only when they had 4 manufacturers and sponsors and tracks to go with them. Since then its been all downhill. TG is just patching together a field to run against AGR and Penske. Honda has the discount sponsors. The competition is weak. They have lost tracks, sponsors, teams ,drivers and manufacturers. What happens when Honda leaves for Nascar?

CC has new teams and cars for Atlantics and Champ Car. There new venues, a secure engine manufacturer and drivers looking for rides.

I think CC can wait to see how this turns out.


Kal

The DP01

Excuse my expression, but this car is the tits. Up close and personal, this is one of the most sexiest machines I've ever seen. I cannot tell you how different it looks in person and on the track. I recall KK, during the early days of the car's debut, saying, "it will look like a ChampCar." It does... And then some.

On the first day, I made it a point to ask many owners, managers, and drivers about their opinions of the car. The answer? Praise, praise, and more praise. Sure there were some new car glitches to be worked out, but the overall opinion, in the paddock, was that this car is going to change everything.

As the days passed, the opinions got better. I asked several drivers about the air turbulance, and many responded it has greatly improved. They praised how fun it is to drive, and even Justuin Wilson joked about how he thought someone switched him from a ChampCar to an F1 car due to the feeling of more power and control.
Bottom line, the DP01 is the real deal of hard work and great vision by ChampCar and it's owners. While chatting with Wally Dallenbach, with Robert Clarke drooling over Legge's car, we concluded that this was the car which should have happened back in 1996. We also spoke about how this car is the future of US open wheel racing. Robert Clarke's expression was priceless!!

So to Kevin, Jerry, Dan, Paul, ChampCar, Panoz, Cosworth, Bridgestone, PI Research, and anyone else behind the design and development of this incredible racing machine: Thank you. You all did a brilliant job, and I believe your hard work will reshape the landscape of American open wheel racing.

The State of ChampCar

Since I was asked not to publish specifics, I won't. But after a few conversations with attending ChampCar staff, I learned that ChampCar is stronger than ever. Since the announcement of the new TV contract, they've been receiving more calls than they've been making. The series is extremely happy with the new sanctioning agreements, and expects further expansion in 2008. I brought up the issue of schedule organization (explaining that virtually every other professional sport has a regular and organized event schedule), and they responded that an effort, for 2008 and 2009, is already in the works.

And unlike last season, the ChampCar staff is expanding. A fine tuned organization is preparing to expand and grow crucial in house departments. Now that the product is being established, it sounds as if there is a plan to promote and market it.

I heard there are a few more hurdles to hop, but overall there is a sense of accomplishing everything the critics said would never be accomplished (in your face, jack asses!). That said, I took away that they plan and will continue to stay the course. Works for me.

They're Coming

Who's coming, ya ask? Teams and sponsors.

As a fan, I walked the paddock with an ear-to-ear grin. One conversation after another, I was learning what is on the horizon.

For sponsors, I saw the obvious and heard the not so obvious. From DCR to Minardi Team USA, I saw new sponsors. From a new beer sponsor to the awesome Red Bull temp PKV livery, more are signing on. With exception of not finding out for either Forsythe and PCM, I confirmed that every other team has a future planned sponsor announcement. Not too shabby.

As for teams, they're also coming. Three likely future teams were doing rounds over the course of the three day tests. From new teams simply out of no where, to a current IRL team switching back, we will see more cars over the course of 2007 and also in Vegas '08. I had a chance to ask the IRL team why, and their response was, "the combination of the DP01 and TV contract makes this series more attractive than where we are now." Let me just say I was absolutely delighted to hear this comment!

Furthermore, I had a chance to party with a number of ALMS guys. While boozing it up at Sebring's local saloon, the Blue Lagoon, I found out that two ALMS teams might expand to ChampCar.

The Drivers

Many of the same faces with some new faces.

I recognize the reality of the musical chairs with the current (2006) drivers, but at least many of them are finding seats (and will remain part of the series). It was pretty damn cool hearing how badly they want to stay in this series, and, eventually, they'll find their new seats.

As for new drivers, I really liked the PCM guys. I didn't get a chance to directly meet them, but hanging around them demonstrated that they will add more character to the sport. Their TV interviews were quite amusing, and I think their ontrack skills will be competitive. The entire PCM team had a cool old school positive vibe.

Graham Rahal really surprised me. How tall is this kid?! Maybe not as tall as Justin, but he was at least 6'1". He is 18 and loving the fact he is in ChampCar. While he does have aspirations to eventually move to F1, he will not make a move unless there is a competitive car available. So, for now, he has two or three years, at least, in ChampCar.

The Red Bull drivers, besides Jani, are hating life. You have three or four of them trying to land the other and solely remaining Red Bull seat. After the first day, they got why ChampCar has been so appealling to so many. I wish them all luck, and hope all of them find a seat, eventually.

The DP01 (Part II)

So nice I had to mention it twice... Beyond amazing.

Other Stuff

Meeting Paul Newman was pretty damn cool. I can only hope I am that suave at 80+. I wish him, and his team, good luck at attempting to retain the championship for a fourth year.

PT's Mom - Kicked ass! I enjoyed meeting her and exchanging thoughts with her.

Gordon Johncock - Welcome back, sir.

Nigel Mansell - Where is the mustache?? Can't wait to see you in a car. Why not start your own team??!

Robert Clarke - I wonder if you will have as much fun as you did in Sebring as you will in Iowa! The end is near.

Potential New Teams - Jump on in! With the new car, TV contract, Euro tour, Asia tour, and US tracks, all the teams, rational costs, and fair / close competition, the water is warm. Hope to see some of you debut yourselves by Long Beach.

[OWFan19]

This is an interesting topic that I dont think many people can look at objectivly. Everyone is a fan of one or the other. So it doesnt suprise me when people get passionate about. That is what truly makes this a great thread because I think it is one of the major factors of the decline of both series. That being said, I think CC is shooting itself in the foot. Another poster mentioned that the IRL is losing drivers, tracks, ect.. Well Denver just dropped off the map for CC. I heard that there is a potential new road race for IRL at that venue. Neither series has done anything to really promote their drivers. I dont know why that is, and most others would probably agree. Two series competing with one another does nobody any good. A series isnt defined by the DP01. Its a total package, and to me the IRL has a better pacakge. More diversity of racing, more know drivers, bigger name sponsors. Dont get me wrong, I am a fan of both series and see alot of good drivers in CC, but I would rather see it under one roof. I think an expert panel of drivers, marketing and PR specialists would benefit the series overall. Its tough to say who gets the power, at this point, give it to TG he has been around longer and seems have the slight 1% advantage. Face it, there is nothing good about having 2 series competing against one another. But it under one roof, have a great feeder system, combine your money and efforts and take some power away from stock cars.

[garyshell]

That's hard for an objective observer to argue.

Oh please, spare us the patronizing attitude. As if YOU are being objective. An objective observer would ask who does the IRL have coming up through its ranks to support this "depth" that you envision? Careful with your answer, remembering that most of the folks there have aspirations elsewhere and have made no bones about publicizing that fact.

Gary

[garyshell]

But it under one roof, have a great feeder system, combine your money and efforts and take some power away from stock cars.

I am not convinced that this has ever REALLY been about taking power away from the "stock" cars. To me it has been about reuniting a once healthy fan base of folks who like open wheel racing and racing that includes right turns. Sure some of those went to the tin tops, but I think a larger number just plain left. My point is I don't think you have to strive to reduce the stock car craze in order to make the open wheel series something more akin to what it once was. I don't buy into the idea that there are a limited number of sponsors and that NASCAR has them all. Does Proctor and Gamble limit its coffee advertising to a single medium? Of course not. They go where there are quantifiable eyeballs, period.

Gary

[cache]

This is an interesting topic that I dont think many people can look at objectivly. Everyone is a fan of one or the other. So it doesnt suprise me when people get passionate about. That is what truly makes this a great thread because I think it is one of the major factors of the decline of both series. That being said, I think CC is shooting itself in the foot. Another poster mentioned that the IRL is losing drivers, tracks, ect.. Well Denver just dropped off the map for CC. I heard that there is a potential new road race for IRL at that venue. Neither series has done anything to really promote their drivers. I dont know why that is, and most others would probably agree. Two series competing with one another does nobody any good. A series isnt defined by the DP01. Its a total package, and to me the IRL has a better pacakge. More diversity of racing, more know drivers, bigger name sponsors. Dont get me wrong, I am a fan of both series and see alot of good drivers in CC, but I would rather see it under one roof. I think an expert panel of drivers, marketing and PR specialists would benefit the series overall. Its tough to say who gets the power, at this point, give it to TG he has been around longer and seems have the slight 1% advantage. Face it, there is nothing good about having 2 series competing against one another. But it under one roof, have a great feeder system, combine your money and efforts and take some power away from stock cars.

If the IRL had the total package they would be successful by now, its the same old league year after year. TG has no advantage, honda rules the show with Penske. TG is spending money to fill the field at Indy. Just because TG has the IRL for 11 years doesn't mean he is qualified to run a series, he had everything when everyone came over to the IRL and he squandered it away. I don't see any progress in the IRL, just treading water.

[pvtjoker]

If the IRL had the total package they would be successful by now, its the same old league year after year. TG has no advantage, honda rules the show with Penske. TG is spending money to fill the field at Indy. Just because TG has the IRL for 11 years doesn't mean he is qualified to run a series, he had everything when everyone came over to the IRL and he squandered it away. I don't see any progress in the IRL, just treading water.


I agree with you about the IRL. However, one can almost say the same about CC. How many times this past year were we "fed" that 2007 was going to be the "break-out year" (24 car caps on the field, more sponsors, blah, blah). Maybe it will, but up to this point, I haven't heard much positive news coming out of CC these days.

Color me unimpressed.

[pvtjoker]

Oh please, spare us the patronizing attitude. As if YOU are being objective. An objective observer would ask who does the IRL have coming up through its ranks to support this "depth" that you envision? Careful with your answer, remembering that most of the folks there have aspirations elsewhere and have made no bones about publicizing that fact.

Gary

I have to agree with you, Gary. Unfortunately most of the better IRL drivers have aspirations for NASCAR (Hornish for one...perhaps even Wheldon and Castroneves) or F1 (Marco).

However, lets not think CC is immune to this thought process. Nope, same problem plagues CC today.

Bourdais and Rahal have made no secret of their desires to be F1 drivers. AJ left for NASCAR last year. And lets not forget Tracy's sudden about face in his aborted Cup career. I'm betting a few of these "new" Euros would jump at the chance to go F1 if they could. CC is simply a next step to something bigger at this point of there careers. For every Phillipe or Legge who may be content at racing at the CC level, you have a Doornbos, Jani or a Bourdais eyeing a seat in a supposed "bigger arena".

Right or wrong, its what plaguing (and ruining IMO) American open wheel racing today.

[cache]

I agree with you about the IRL. However, one can almost say the same about CC. How many times this past year were we "fed" that 2007 was going to be the "break-out year" (24 car caps on the field, more sponsors, blah, blah). Maybe it will, but up to this point, I haven't heard much positive news coming out of CC these days.

Color me unimpressed.

It's a 24 car cap, that's all. Only the fans called it a breakout year. It is, in the fact that we have a new car. It's only feb. They are still testing and drivers are still looking for rides. I don't expect everything to be done until April @ Vegas.

[BrentJackson]

To call me unimpressed about the current absolutely pathetic state of the CCWS right now would be an understatement. Folks, we've been heaqring this "it'll be better next year" for four years, and compare CCWS to 2003 CART and which is the better series? 03 CART, hands down.

Can anybody really argue against a merger nay more? I don't think so. But unfortunately for CCWS, the IRL is up at least one team, a bunch of sponsors, and at least three new venues on CCWS. In other words, if KK wants any leverage in a merger, it's do or die time. Not next year, RIGHT NOW. No more of the wait for next year bullsh*t. Kevin, the game's on and you, frankly, are getting your a$$ whupped by a guy who is roundly considered a crappy businessman. You got into CCWS, you understand its rather rough state, and the fanbase which has been behind you for four years is nearing the point of open revolt.

If Denver truly has been "postponed" then you get it a replacement. No buts, no excuses - it gets a replacement. Make sure that race in China goes to October next year or it goes. (I'd prefer the latter - the logistics are terrible, and nobody should be doing business with China's corrupt fascist government.) They need ovals back, they need drivers from this continent.

[pvtjoker]

^^^^^^^^ Standing ovation. Nicely put.

[DrDomm]

Everyone needs to step down for their internet forum soapbox, and come back to planet earth where things actually happen.

Spin away, but the truth is that there will be a 2007 CCWS season. I think it will be exciting to watch.

[cache]

Can anybody really argue against a merger nay more? I don't think so. But unfortunately for CCWS, the IRL is up at least one team, a bunch of sponsors, and at least three new venues on CCWS. In other words, if KK wants any leverage in a merger, it's do or die time. Not next year, RIGHT NOW. No more of the wait for next year bullsh*t. Kevin, the game's on and you, frankly, are getting your a$$ whupped by a guy who is roundly considered a crappy businessman. You got into CCWS, you understand its rather rough state, and the fanbase which has been behind you for four years is nearing the point of open revolt.

Who cares about the IRL and its honda sponsors and TG's bought teams and drivers? They're going racing in the midwest and they don't compare to CC. TG is just slapping together a series,he has no business plan. KK doesn't make decisions on what the IRL does. It doesn't matter. They aren't successful. Even with Indy.

[BrentJackson]

Who cares about the IRL and its honda sponsors and TG's bought teams and drivers? They're going racing in the midwest and they don't compare to CC. TG is just slapping together a series,he has no business plan. KK doesn't make decisions on what the IRL does. It doesn't matter. They aren't successful. Even with Indy.

The IRL has a schedule that is very good to casual fans, whereas CCWS's sveral massive gaps - nearly two months between Houston and Portland, another month between Zolder and Surfers, and one race a month in October, November and December - makes it bloody hard to keep any interest at all.

They have a 19 car field, most of which has substantial sponsorship. Champ Car has 17 and half of them are unsponsored.

And pal, if KK has a business plan its "run wherever the hell we can get a bit of money out of local governments."

IRL is ahead. And the DP01 hasn't helped at all.

[cache]

The IRL has a schedule that is very good to casual fans, whereas CCWS's sveral massive gaps - nearly two months between Houston and Portland, another month between Zolder and Surfers, and one race a month in October, November and December - makes it bloody hard to keep any interest at all.

They have a 19 car field, most of which has substantial sponsorship. Champ Car has 17 and half of them are unsponsored.

And pal, if KK has a business plan its "run wherever the hell we can get a bit of money out of local governments."

IRL is ahead. And the DP01 hasn't helped at all.

They aren't competing! Who cares about what the IRL does, it has no bearing on the CC series. CC's season hasn't started yet and nothing is final, so you're wrong.

The IRL is unsucessful even with Indy. The DP01 was neccessary and will be a success.

[BrentJackson]

I don't deny the DP01 is neccessary. I'm glad its here, and if works that's terrific.

As far as the IRL being irrelevant to CCWS, as far as the media and the average fans out there are concerned, they will forever be tied because one spawned from the other. They will always be tied to each other. That will never change unless KK moves CCWS to Canada or Mexico or Australia. Champ Car is based in Indianapolis. Half it races are in the USA. Open wheel racing in America has always been joined at the hip to the Indianapolis 500, and it probably always will be. Therefore the IRL has a lot of relevance to CCWS, because they are the benchmark that they will be compared to. And right now, that comparison is a lot in Champ Car's failure. TG made a bunch of promises in the offseason, as did CCWS. IRL has made good on all of them, CCWS has made good on only a couple. CCWS' record of bad business choices, crappy races, stone-faced lies and hunderds of unfulfilled promises and enough false hype to fill an Olympic swimming pool.

The way for CCWS to survive and prosper is to take the IRL on, straight up, or merge and get this 30-year battle between IMS and the team owners finished forever.

[pvtjoker]

CC's season hasn't started yet and nothing is final, so you're wrong.

The IRL is unsucessful even with Indy. The DP01 was neccessary and will be a success.

And there in lies the problem that has plague CC for the last 5 years. Nothing is ever confirmed until race weekend.

As for Indy not being success, you're joking right? Yeah, it just got the biggest tv ratings (in comparison to other races) that weekend (including NASCAR) and easily beats any other OW race the entire year. You're reaching...

[cache]

And there in lies the problem that has plague CC for the last 5 years. Nothing is ever confirmed until race weekend.

As for Indy not being success, you're joking right? Yeah, it just got the biggest tv ratings (in comparison to other races) that weekend (including NASCAR) and easily beats any other OW race the entire year. You're reaching...

It doesn't beat nascar and it does nothing for the IRL. The rest of IRL's season has low attendance and ratings and is forgetable.

Who cares what the IRL does, it doesn't mean anything to the CC series or business plan.

[garyshell]

As for Indy not being success, you're joking right? Yeah, it just got the biggest tv ratings (in comparison to other races) that weekend (including NASCAR) and easily beats any other OW race the entire year. You're reaching...

It is most assuredly NOT a reach to say that Indy is not a success if you measure it against itself pre split. By any measure it is an abject failure. Look at the total number of folks through the turnstile in the month of May. Look at the economic impact to the region in the month of May. All of these are a SHADOW of what it was and could continue to be.

For the real story all one has to do is walk down Georgetown Ave on Memorial day and look at the ratio of face value to street value on the tickets the scalpers are serving up. Now tell me again how the IRL 500 is not a failure?

Gary

[pvtjoker]

It is most assuredly NOT a reach to say that Indy is not a success if you measure it against itself pre split. By any measure it is an abject failure. Look at the total number of folks through the turnstile in the month of May. Look at the economic impact to the region in the month of May. All of these are a SHADOW of what it was and could continue to be.

For the real story all one has to do is walk down Georgetown Ave on Memorial day and look at the ratio of face value to street value on the tickets the scalpers are serving up. Now tell me again how the IRL 500 is not a failure?

Gary

It may not be as successful as it was pre-split- no argument from me, but it definitely isn't a failure. As long as people continue to pack them in on race day, sponsors sign up to be on the cars and tv viewers continue to watch, TG is lining his pockets. To think otherwise is foolish.

Yeah, its STILL a successful race.

[pvtjoker]

It doesn't beat nascar and it does nothing for the IRL. The rest of IRL's season has low attendance and ratings and is forgetable.

Who cares what the IRL does, it doesn't mean anything to the CC series or business plan.

Check again my friend. The 500 most certainly did beat the Coca-Cola 600 in the ratings.

One thing I will agree, it won't affect CC, especially if they do end up racing in China.

[luvracin]

Don't you guys get sick of this?

It's all the same people saying exactly the same things... over and over again..

[garyshell]

It may not be as successful as it was pre-split- no argument from me, but it definitely isn't a failure. As long as people continue to pack them in on race day, sponsors sign up to be on the cars and tv viewers continue to watch, TG is lining his pockets. To think otherwise is foolish.

Yeah, its STILL a successful race.

Ask the business owners around Speedway Indiana. I think your definition of success and mine are drastically different.

Gary

[pvtjoker]

^^^^^

As the son of an business owner in Indy, I can tell you most are still making a nice profit from '500 weekend'. As such, most are benefiting from the brickyard weekend and F1 as well.

[pvtjoker]

Don't you guys get sick of this?

It's all the same people saying exactly the same things... over and over again..


Feel free to jump in. The waters warm.

[cache]

Check again my friend. The 500 most certainly did beat the Coca-Cola 600 in the ratings.

From Jayski-


Coke 600 final TV Ratings down from 2005 but beats Indy 500: Final Nielsen Media Research ratings show that Fox's broadcast of the May 28 Coca-Cola 600 Nextel Cup race at Lowe's Motor Speedway drew a higher television rating than ABC attracted for the same day's Indianapolis 500. Fox earned a 5.1 rating and an 11 share, down 16.4% from 6.1/13 in 2005, but the Indy ratings dropped even more. Ratings for the Indy Racing League event fell 23.1%, from 6.5/18 in 2005 to 5.0/14 this year.(SceneDaily.com)(6-5-2006)

[luvracin]

Feel free to jump in. The waters warm.

Only reason the water's warm is because this whole debate has just become one big pissing match.

......so no thanks, I may just stay on my deckchair here with my beer.
:p :

[pvtjoker]

Only reason the water's warm is because this whole debate has just become one big pissing match.

......so no thanks, I may just stay on my deckchair here with my beer.
:p :

Beer?! I like your plan better. :)

[garyshell]

Ratings for the Indy Racing League event fell 23.1%, from 6.5/18 in 2005 to 5.0/14 this year.(SceneDaily.com)(

Now THAT'S what I would call a success! :eek:

Gary

[ozobitis]

Success or not, Indy 500 is still King of one day attendance in OW. However, anything can be manipulated to show it is a success or failure by choosing information,dates,ratings etc to suit. Maybe it should be a new post and we can comment. This is a post on mergification and not a IRL/CC
Pi$$ing contest.
I do believe that KK/TG have finally outsmarted us fans/media and are making some progress with CC at Indy 500 this year(Even if Honda supplies CC engines for the DP01) and a full schedule together in 2008 with IRL in the DP01 as well.

As far as CC fans getting ticked off over the lack of progress, I must live in a "Bubble" because my crowd has never been more excited for the start of a race year since back in the early/Mid 90's .

Although watching Danika,Sarah and Milka in a Powder Puff race like in the OLD DAYS at local ovals would be fun!

[garyshell]

This is a post on mergification and not a IRL/CC
Pi$$ing contest.

There is a difference??? :s mokin:

Gary

[Alexamateo]

It is most assuredly NOT a reach to say that Indy is not a success if you measure it against itself pre split. By any measure it is an abject failure. Look at the total number of folks through the turnstile in the month of May. Look at the economic impact to the region in the month of May. All of these are a SHADOW of what it was and could continue to be.

For the real story all one has to do is walk down Georgetown Ave on Memorial day and look at the ratio of face value to street value on the tickets the scalpers are serving up. Now tell me again how the IRL 500 is not a failure?

Gary

I think one thing needs to be kept in mind when you talk about attendance is that Indy is selling more total tickets than ever before. Whereas before you had 400,000 tickets sold to a single event, now you have 800,000 sold to 3 major events. It shouldn't be a surprise that the one event experienced a slight dropoff. My race attendance budget is not unlimited, I can't attend all three even if I want to. I am sure many others have to make the same decision.

[garyshell]

I think one thing needs to be kept in mind when you talk about attendance is that Indy is selling more total tickets than ever before. Whereas before you had 400,000 tickets sold to a single event, now you have 800,000 sold to 3 major events.

Sorry, but the extra events have nothing to do with the point at hand. They may make IMS a success but do not make the IRL500 one.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

The IRL has a schedule that is very good to casual fans, whereas CCWS's sveral massive gaps - nearly two months between Houston and Portland, another month between Zolder and Surfers, and one race a month in October, November and December - makes it bloody hard to keep any interest at all.

They have a 19 car field, most of which has substantial sponsorship. Champ Car has 17 and half of them are unsponsored.

And pal, if KK has a business plan its "run wherever the hell we can get a bit of money out of local governments."

IRL is ahead. And the DP01 hasn't helped at all.

The Ostrich mandate rises from the sand once again.

Where are these casual fans come race day? With the exception of Indy, race attendance is not one of TG's strongest assets. If that 19 car field with substantial sponsorship were truly bankable dollars we'd see a lot more activity in the IRL paddock than we do. Eddie Cheever would still be there. What were the factors that put Red Bulls in CCWS and CCAC? CCAC had its coming out year as promised and 2007 looks to be just as exciting with Cooper set to activate their role. The only reason the IPS is still around is because Barnyard Brian is giving out extra test days if an IRL team puts a car on the IPS grid. Give CC fans a break from the doom & gloom.

[OWFan19]

I have to agree with Brent. The whole structure of Champ Car lies in the entry fee's that a city pays Champ Car to come run in their town. As far as another poster mentioned TG buying rides, then what does KK and GF do? I never said that the IRL has the total package complete. Their package is just more than the DP01 and a handful of "excellent" drivers. Neither series does jack to promote, market, or sell their drivers or series. I made the mistake to say go after stock cars, but that is the competition. A good marketer should not care what their competion does. They should do what is the best for their company. But they do need to know who their competion is. To the poster that said the Indy 500 isnt sucessful next to Daytona its the biggest race in America, if not bigger than Daytona worldwide. Lets see some facts if you have any that prove your claim.

[weeflyonthewall]

OWFan19. Indy is on the same day as Monaco. Which one draws the larger TV audience?

[call_me_andrew]

I made the mistake to say go after stock cars, but that is the competition.

Why does it have to be competition in the first place? Why can't we all just get along?

Let's compare this to other sports. I've never seen any kind of internet rivalry between American League fans and National League fans.

Let's compare this to music. I've never seen anyone only listen to one band, then hop on the internet and go on and on about how only this one band is capable of making good music and how all other bands should stop making music and we all have to listen to just this one band. I'm sure that's a run-on sentence.

Why does it have to be just one racing series and only one racing series? I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never be able to watch my ideal racing series (picture SPEED World Challenge on a 50/50 mix of ovals and road courses). I don't like motocross, but that doesn't mean I want to stop it from existing.

[garyshell]

To the poster that said the Indy 500 isnt sucessful next to Daytona its the biggest race in America, if not bigger than Daytona worldwide. Lets see some facts if you have any that prove your claim.

I said in comparison to what the IRL 500 is now and what the Indy 500 was before the split, it is not a success. As for proof I provided the following quote which I will include again for you.


Ratings for the Indy Racing League event fell 23.1%, from 6.5/18 in 2005 to 5.0/14 this year.(SceneDaily.com)(

If you call a drop of 23% a success, so be it.

Gary

[drewdawg727]

They need ovals back, they need drivers from this continent.

Why? I disagree with both of those statements. All you need are good drivers and successful tracks.

[msaxman]

i'll elaborate -

give me a good reason why IRL is more stable than CC. There is no competition in the IRL, especially last year when the season was dominated by four drivers. CC just went to a new chassis and is on the verge of becoming world renowned by going to places like China and Australia and Europe. If they are trying to make their series better (and are doing a damn good job of it) why on EARTH would they just fold and give their series away to TG?


CC only had four race winners last year, as well, with bourdais and allmendinger doing the majority of the work.

there is more potential for growth in CC, though, especially internationally.

[Alexamateo]

CC only had four race winners last year, as well, with bourdais and allmendinger doing the majority of the work.

there is more potential for growth in CC, though, especially internationally.

FYI the IRL had six race winners, the big 4 plus one each by Kanaan and Andretti

[Alexamateo]

Sorry, but the extra events have nothing to do with the point at hand. They may make IMS a success but do not make the IRL500 one.

Gary

You had mentioned a negative economic impact on the entire region in your prior post. That's probably not true because there are more tickets sold now, and it is spread out on a four month time frame as opposed to a single month.

[OWFan19]

Why does it have to be competition in the first place? Why can't we all just get along?

Let's compare this to other sports. I've never seen any kind of internet rivalry between American League fans and National League fans.

Let's compare this to music. I've never seen anyone only listen to one band, then hop on the internet and go on and on about how only this one band is capable of making good music and how all other bands should stop making music and we all have to listen to just this one band. I'm sure that's a run-on sentence.

Why does it have to be just one racing series and only one racing series? I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never be able to watch my ideal racing series (picture SPEED World Challenge on a 50/50 mix of ovals and road courses). I don't like motocross, but that doesn't mean I want to stop it from existing.

Andrew,
Baseball still has inter-league play, and they have a championship series at the end of the season too. I see your point, and in an ideal world thats what I would want. But its business, and yes that makes it a competition. When the survival of a team is based on sponsorship, you have got to be agressive. NASCAR is agressive, the IRL and CC arent. Thats why neither series is sponsor saturated like NASCAR is. Now, is it possible to have the two series compete against each other at several races a year? Are the two cars so different that the competion would be lop sided for one series over the other, or would the competion be close?

[OWFan19]

I said in comparison to what the IRL 500 is now and what the Indy 500 was before the split, it is not a success. As for proof I provided the following quote which I will include again for you.



If you call a drop of 23% a success, so be it.

Gary


I stand corrected. I agree with you. I still consider the Indy 500 a sucess for American Open Wheel Racing. Yes it is on the same day as Monaco, but I know world wide it still recieves decent numbers. I am not 100% positive, but I think the world wide numbers beat NASCAR on that day. But I agree its not like it use to be. And the drop I blame on Danicamania.

[SFChamp]

:confused: sad fact for me I would rather watch the Russell Racing series up at Sonoma than the 500 It just does not mean anything to me anymore.

[weeflyonthewall]

I stand corrected. I agree with you. I still consider the Indy 500 a sucess for American Open Wheel Racing. Yes it is on the same day as Monaco, but I know world wide it still recieves decent numbers. I am not 100% positive, but I think the world wide numbers beat NASCAR on that day. But I agree its not like it use to be. And the drop I blame on Danicamania.

Monaco has the bigger TV audience. Indy used to be a good reason to skip Sunday Service once a year. NO MORE. Tony's misguided split took care of that. Then he changed the schedule and made it hard for some of the NASCAR guys to pull double duty. Time to move it to Memorial Day (Monday) under mergification.

[OWFan19]

I agree on moving the Race to Memorial Day, aside from alot of people maybe at work. I also think alot of the races could be raced on Saturday, preferably in the evening. By moving it to Saturday you will eliminate competing with NASCAR, Champ Car, or Formula 1 for viewership.

[jimispeed]

Merger, no thanks!! All Champcar needs is an oval, a superspeedway and they're golden!!

[O&A Virus]

Why? I disagree with both of those statements. All you need are good drivers and successful tracks.

Thats a bunch of bs. This so-called "American" series will always be mediocre in the eyes of American race fans, garner no/little media attention if the series continues to ignore/refuse American drivers.

Right now, this series can't do many things right. KK's 's business plan is a wash (races overseas, like thats never been done (roll eyes)), car counts are down (AGAIN!) and the new chassis has proven to be unimpressive after the first public test. If that wasn't bad enough, now you have radical (or maybe just dumb) CC fans who refuse to acknowledge Indy is a ratings winner and still the biggest race in American open wheel racing. If it isn't, it damn well isn't the annual snorefest in Long Beach or the joke of a race in San Jose.

IMO, CC is in damage control mode and KK needs to find a solution...fast!

[DrDomm]

IMO, CC is in damage control mode and KK needs to find a solution...fast!

More great advice from a concerned fan.

[ozobitis]

I thought CC was a "Worlwide" series but American based in INDY.
KK is attempting to build a Global appeal to differenciate CC furthur from the IRL thus appealing to a bigger audience /sponsorship potential if success is attained.
TG has moved the IRL forward but it is the same old CART that failed.
I just read somewhere that they are considering a race in Portugal-surely this is not in Europe?
2007 looked very exciting and still will be with 20 cars mininum in Vegas !

[cache]

Thats a bunch of bs. This so-called "American" series will always be mediocre in the eyes of American race fans, garner no/little media attention if the series continues to ignore/refuse American drivers.

Right now, this series can't do many things right. KK's 's business plan is a wash (races overseas, like thats never been done (roll eyes)), car counts are down (AGAIN!) and the new chassis has proven to be unimpressive after the first public test. If that wasn't bad enough, now you have radical (or maybe just dumb) CC fans who refuse to acknowledge Indy is a ratings winner and still the biggest race in American open wheel racing.

The DP01 has been very impressive and other teams are taking a look. It's going to be successful. New cars for Atlantics and Champ Car. New venues and events. Secured engine manufacturer and PI. CC is going in the right direction.

Indy does nothing for the IRL,it doesn't help their ratings and attendance the rest of the season.

[weeflyonthewall]

..... snorefest in Long Beach or the joke of a race in San Jose.

IMO, CC is in damage control mode and KK needs to find a solution...fast!

snorefest at Long Beach says a lot about how valuable your opinion is.

[BobGarage]

for an IRL fan Mr Virus sure posts one hell of a lot in the champ car fourm.

maybe he should be more concerned with the failings of the irl than his percieved failings of champ car.

[O&A Virus]

snorefest at Long Beach says a lot about how valuable your opinion is.

Would it make you feel better if I lied and said it was a great race? Probably not. Lets not make LB any more than what it is, a pretty boring race with a great party atmosphere (off-track that is).

[Blancvino]

Would it make you feel better if I lied and said it was a great race? Probably not. Lets not make LB any more than what it is, a pretty boring race with a great party atmosphere (off-track that is).

It too much to expect but not too much to ask for you to just go away. I'm not sure how you got off my ignore list but you are going back now.

[O&A Virus]

It too much to expect but not too much to ask for you to just go away. I'm not sure how you got off my ignore list but you are going back now.

Listen, disagree with me all you want, call me names if you must and put me on your 'ignore list' if it makes you feel better at night.

I'm just calling it like I see it. When CC does something positive I will commend them (bringing in Red Bull, Minardi, the growth of the Atlantic Series, etc.). When it hurts to be a CC fan (like it does now), I'll tell you how I see it - even if it doesn't meet your "rosy picture" of the series you love.

Again, do what you must.

[pits4me]

Listen, disagree with me all you want, call me names if you must and put me on your 'ignore list' if it makes you feel better at night.

I'm just calling it like I see it. When CC does something positive I will commend them (bringing in Red Bull, Minardi, the growth of the Atlantic Series, etc.). When it hurts to be a CC fan (like it does now), I'll tell you how I see it - even if it doesn't meet your "rosy picture" of the series you love.

Again, do what you must.

If CC did something right you would never admit it. Show proof that you've actually written something positive about this series. It doesn't fit with your Pro-IRL agenda. I don't see you bashing St. Pete's with the same passion.

It's time the moderators pulled the plug on your access to the Champ Car forum again. Your welcome mat has been removed.

[O&A Virus]

If CC did something right you would never admit it. Show proof that you've actually written something positive about this series. It doesn't fit with your Pro-IRL agenda. I don't see you bashing St. Pete's with the same passion.

It's time the moderators pulled the plug on your access to the Champ Car forum again. Your welcome mat has been removed.

Believe me St. Pete's isn't exactly a barnburner of a race either. Throw in Nashville, Sears Point and Watkins Glen too. IRL has there share of "snooze" races.

When the time comes, I'll be fair and complimentary towards CC as I have been in past (as noted in my earlier email) but I'm not going to paint a "rosy picture" of things or be a cheerleader for everything CC just to convince you I follow or am a fan of CC. You can go to cache for that.

[cartpix]

I find it amusing that there a bunch of pro IRL types, here, spreading doom & gloom. When I looked at the stats, of the two forums, the IRL forum has 651 threads with 3 viewers. The Champ Car forum, on the other hand, has 5113 threads with 23 viewing. Odd...

Jeff

[FIAT1]

I find it amusing that there a bunch of pro IRL types, here, spreading doom & gloom. When I looked at the stats, of the two forums, the IRL forum has 651 threads with 3 viewers. The Champ Car forum, on the other hand, has 5113 threads with 23 viewing. Odd...

Jeff

Agree

[MAX_THRUST]

I have often noticed the people viewing the IRL is less than CCWs, I assumed this was because I am UK based and the Americans are in Bed when I'm viewing, or looking at filth on the net whilst their partners asleep,,,,,,I guess I'm wrong. lol

Joking aside, I started to earn respect for TG recently after watching a show on discovery about the rebuild work at INDY. Impressive, but as soon as that respect started in me, I lost it again. We all know my feelings about TG, I just wish TG would go back to turbo engines for the 500, or open it for turbo or normal aspirated motors, I wish he would go out and buy a load of Panoz chasis as they do look better than the current IRL cars, even stevie wonder can tell you that(the ones in 96 were nice though). The cars are cheaper(don't know if they can run ovals or not), this would be the biggest step towards unification. INDY could be should be HUGE!!!! It's not really that cared about outside the US. Dan Wheeldon winning didn't exactly get the British press jumping.

Merger or not I don't care as long as CCWS is still running I'm happy. I would be happier with some ovals I would be happier if TG wasn't like a small child and hadn't changed the rules to alienate teams from his 500 race. I don't get it, If I have to kill someone I don't want to kill my self trying to kill them....TG has a big deck of cards, one is INDY the others are............????? Does he have any thing else that CCWS doesn't? Not any more. Maybe Stoddart is gonna buy up everything as Bernie wanted to with CART. TG could make his life easier and better and so many other people happier. WAKE UP!!!!

[drewdawg727]

Would it make you feel better if I lied and said it was a great race? Probably not. Lets not make LB any more than what it is, a pretty boring race with a great party atmosphere (off-track that is).

What constitutes a race as "boring"? Especially when the grand-am race and the other festivities are around, that race is NOT boring.

[Alexamateo]

I find it amusing that there a bunch of pro IRL types, here, spreading doom & gloom. When I looked at the stats, of the two forums, the IRL forum has 651 threads with 3 viewers. The Champ Car forum, on the other hand, has 5113 threads with 23 viewing. Odd...

Jeff

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a Champ car site use motorsports.com as a host for their forum? It is also UK based. If you go to Trackforum, you get the exact opposite statistics, lots of IRL postings and limited ChampCar

[garyshell]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a Champ car site use motorsports.com as a host for their forum? It is also UK based. If you go to Trackforum, you get the exact opposite statistics, lots of IRL postings and limited ChampCar


Huh? I am not sure what your getting at.

But one correction is required: it is motorsport.com not motorsports.com. The extra "s" takes you somewhere else entirely.

Gary

[Alexamateo]

Huh? I am not sure what your getting at.

But one correction is required: it is motorsport.com not motorsports.com. The extra "s" takes you somewhere else entirely.

Gary

You're correct on the extra "s".

What I mean is that this is the default forum for Worldmotorsport, Autoracing1, Rallyforum, and BTCC.coms. These are more international in flavor and have more Champcar fans. I am just saying it is wrong to gauge general interest based on the fact that there is more interest in Champcar here. At Trackforum, there is more general interest in the IRL and the statistics are reversed. (Many threads and viewers in IRL section, fewer in Champcar.)

[cache]

You're correct on the extra "s".

What I mean is that this is the default forum for Worldmotorsport, Autoracing1, Rallyforum, and BTCC.coms. These are more international in flavor and have more Champcar fans. I am just saying it is wrong to gauge general interest based on the fact that there is more interest in Champcar here. At Trackforum, there is more general interest in the IRL and the statistics are reversed. (Many threads and viewers in IRL section, fewer in Champcar.)

Trackforum is an IRL site. The mods are not CC friendly.

[weeflyonthewall]

You're correct on the extra "s".

What I mean is that this is the default forum for Worldmotorsport, Autoracing1, Rallyforum, and BTCC.coms. These are more international in flavor and have more Champcar fans. I am just saying it is wrong to gauge general interest based on the fact that there is more interest in Champcar here. At Trackforum, there is more general interest in the IRL and the statistics are reversed. (Many threads and viewers in IRL section, fewer in Champcar.)

That's because trackforum as a fan environment is more IRL fan friendly. Just like Champcarfanantics gets more CC activity than most other forums combined. The group you refer to are focused more towards an international audience of which Champ Car and IndyCar are a small part.

[drewdawg727]

Am i the only one who thinks this thread is out of control..?

[Blancvino]

Am i the only one who thinks this thread is out of control..?


No!

[cartpix]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a Champ car site use motorsports.com as a host for their forum? It is also UK based. If you go to Trackforum, you get the exact opposite statistics, lots of IRL postings and limited ChampCar

Actually, the point I was trying to make is, There are more pro IRL people, here, starting crap, than are on the IRL forum.

Jeff

[late-braker]

Actually, the point I was trying to make is, There are more pro IRL people, here, starting crap, than are on the IRL forum.

Jeff

That being the case, is quite startling and suggests there is more than simple individual agendas being articulated, but rather a concerted campaign to discredit Champcar at every opportunity! What's laughable is, if they had nothing to worry about when it comes to Champcar than they wouldn't be bothered to post here. The very fact that they do indicates that the IRL clan are quite uneasy about the state of affairs of CCWS these days since growth of Champcar means the IRL's inevitable death.

[garyshell]

That being the case, is quite startling and suggests there is more than simple individual agendas being articulated, but rather a concerted campaign to discredit Champcar at every opportunity!


I am not sure it is a "concerted effort", but most assuredly there has been a campaign here for quite some time to discredit Champcar at every opportunity.

Gary

[BrentJackson]

That being the case, is quite startling and suggests there is more than simple individual agendas being articulated, but rather a concerted campaign to discredit Champcar at every opportunity! What's laughable is, if they had nothing to worry about when it comes to Champcar than they wouldn't be bothered to post here. The very fact that they do indicates that the IRL clan are quite uneasy about the state of affairs of CCWS these days since growth of Champcar means the IRL's inevitable death.

There is a technical terms for this. It's called paranoia. ;)

[cartpix]

There is a technical terms for this. It's called paranoia. ;)

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean everybody's still not out to get me.

Jeff

Seriously, since this is a thread on merging the two series, why shouldn't pro-IRL people express their views?OK, so a lot of this is just a shouting match, more's the pity, but just because somebody happens to be Pro-IRL it seems like they therefore are second class in this debate.

A merger, by definition, is going to need IRL people and ChampCar people.

But anyway, if you are of the opinion that ChampCar is the better of the two, or even 'know' that it is, why should you be concerned by supposed attempts to discredit it?

[DrDomm]

...Because this is a ChampCar forum, and it seems ridiculous that it's main purpose is to be a haven for IRL fans to come and point out every flaw that Champ Car has.

We've gone through this all before...but why not again?

[Cart750hp]

...Because this is a ChampCar forum, and it seems ridiculous that it's main purpose is to be a haven for IRL fans to come and point out every flaw that Champ Car has.

We've gone through this all before...but why not again?

Dr Domm, why you have to ask them to start again? Ughh. Maybe I shouldn't brought up my wildest idea in the first place. Didn't think it would be this bad.

[call_me_andrew]

Andrew,
Baseball still has inter-league play, and they have a championship series at the end of the season too. I see your point, and in an ideal world thats what I would want. But its business, and yes that makes it a competition. When the survival of a team is based on sponsorship, you have got to be agressive. NASCAR is agressive, the IRL and CC arent. Thats why neither series is sponsor saturated like NASCAR is. Now, is it possible to have the two series compete against each other at several races a year? Are the two cars so different that the competion would be lop sided for one series over the other, or would the competion be close?

Why is survival based so much on sponsorship? Why do the American series need sponsorship so bad, while F1 thrives and keeps sponsorship at a minimum?

[OWFan19]

Why is survival based so much on sponsorship? Why do the American series need sponsorship so bad, while F1 thrives and keeps sponsorship at a minimum?

Your kidding me right?

[DrDomm]

Your kidding me right?

Exactly.

Why is survival based so much on sponsorship? Why do the American series need sponsorship so bad, while F1 thrives and keeps sponsorship at a minimum?

So you call Red Bull's F1 expenditure 'minimum'. Any chance you can be my bank manager?

Red Bull's spending a 'minimum' of $300 million per season (that's spread between Red Bull at $225million & Torro Rosso at $75million). Double that for the likes of Ferrari, Mclaren & Toyota.

Phillip Morris are reckoned to have upped their sponsor deal with Ferrari to between $250 million & $300 miilion per year, taking up the slack left by Vodafone's switch to Mclaren, where the cost of title sponsorship is reckoned to be a mere £175 million per season.

There is also the manufacturers own spending to consider. If that isn't 'sponsorship' of the works racing team, I don't know what is.

Sponsorship in F1 is on levels that would keep the American open-wheel series going for the next 40 years.......

.....both of them.

[call_me_andrew]

I believe the reference was to series sponsorship, not team sponsorship.

Thank you Starter. That was the point I wanted to make.

But as far as team sponsors go, I think most (if not all) F1 teams have their sponsors by the balls. An F1 sponsor will have a small patch on a driver's fire suit with colors changed to match the team's, and no one will ever talk about it. And when a NEXTEL Cup driver in interviewed, he has to list 11 sponsors in 10 seconds.

[ClarkFan]

I believe the reference was to series sponsorship, not team sponsorship.

F1 is in a different place than ChampCar, though. The TV rights sell for large piles of money (enough to deeply impress tamburello's would-be bank manager). The promoters of individual races pay large piles of money to stage races. Ecclestone has probably personally taken more money out of F1 each year than all the ChampCar teams spend in a year.

Owners of golden geese don't require presenting sponsors.

ClarkFan

[call_me_andrew]

F1 is in a different place than ChampCar, though. The TV rights sell for large piles of money (enough to deeply impress tamburello's would-be bank manager). The promoters of individual races pay large piles of money to stage races. Ecclestone has probably personally taken more money out of F1 each year than all the ChampCar teams spend in a year.

Owners of golden geese don't require presenting sponsors.

ClarkFan

GP2 and A1 aren't exactly golden geese. What makes them so damn special?

GP2 and A1 aren't exactly golden geese. What makes them so damn special?

Sorry for getting the wrong end of the stick earlier.

GP2 is run as a support series at European Grand Prix's, with a large investment in it by Renault. As such, it is not a 'stand alone' series a la ChampCar.

A1GP was set-up using the wealth of Sheikh Makhtoum, so at first it did kind of have a title sponsor. However, rumour has it that the series has major questions as to its mid to long-term viability, especially now that the Sheikh has sold his shares.

Most other Euro-based single-seater series of any significance are manufacturer promoted (World Series by Renault is the most obvious, but lower down there is Formula BMW, Formula Renault plus a few others). As such, the title sponsor is the manufacturer.

The only formula that hasn't got a manufacturer behind it is Formula 3 (except in Spain, where it had Toyota as sole engine-supplier but as from 2007 will have Fiat).

There are several F3 series in Europe. The EuroSeries is the biggest of these, a result of a merger between the French & German series. It has three series sponsors, Bosch, ATS & Kumho Tyres. The British F3 series has Lloyds Bank as its title sponsor.

What should be taken into account is that the F3 series will be a whole lot cheaper to sponsor as a title-sponsor than the higher Formula, and have a long tradition of having a title-sponsor.

From my days in F3, which admittedly aren't exactly contemporary, the title sponsor put up the prize fund. The prize fund wasn't exactly massive, and my guess is that this is still the case.

[TioWoody]

Everyone needs to step down for their internet forum soapbox, and come back to planet earth where things actually happen.

Spin away, but the truth is that there will be a 2007 CCWS season. I think it will be exciting to watch.

YEP. I'm going to enjoy it by ATTENDING ATTENDING ATTENDING. LV, LB, Houston, PIR, RA and Phoenix - y quizas, Hermanos otra vez.

Oh, and I'll DVR that race held near the end of May, so I can fast forward past the commercials and non-exciting parts - last year it took about 20 minutes of real time on the clock - sorry, not even the "fantastic" "close" ending compared to even one pass at any CC race.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, Here we go again. Merger talk. Thank God I get away from this board now....or it would be an obsession again!

Ok, First off, the "IRL" trolls here have brought up some good points at times. That said, they are always quick to point out the CCWS' faults, but most of the CCWS fans who are just fans wont see their series objectively. Cache, Jimispeed, Gary, Tio and others are fantatical in their love for the CCWS, adn that is fine, but the love aint paying the bills. I love the CCWS dearly and wish like hell the IRL would go away and leave Indy for the rest of us, but it wont happen, so we all have to get in the real world.

Three years ago I began to beat the drums for us fans to have a groundswell of support for a merger. I was laughed at, told I was nuts, told it wont happen. Yet it seems every year we get whiff's of it. Last year, I thought it might happen. It didn't, no one is sure why.

Listen, no one is saying you cant be a fan, but lets stop the p!ssing contest over which series is better or surviving better. CCWS has a new car and an international sched. It also only has 17 drivers signed, has left one of its best young stars on the curb (Andrew Ranger), very few paying sponsors and it lost one of its fan favourite events. IT has some good races, such as Long Beach, Toronto, Surfers, San Jose (attendance wise, artisticially ugly track) and Houston, but there is no real marquee event. Vegas and Phoenix plus Europe says CCWS isn't going away, and they have the DP-01 and an engine contract, but still, where are the sponsors? The TV contract is likely a time buy ( I know Cache, you would have to see the contract to believe THAT), so CCWS has a lot of pluses and minuses right now.

The IRL? Well, they have Indy, and THAT is the one thing that has kept them in it. It gets the biggest TV ratings of any OW race by far, but they also have decent attendance at a few tracks such as Texas, Richmond and Chicagoland. They are going to new venues, and road racing, and they have sponsors. They have the bigger "names" and more consistentcy in drivers from year to year. There is not a musical chair process in drivers and teams in the IRL. THat said, they have a TV contract that is not much better on the same networks now as CCWS, they have no engine likely after this year. They have unstable economics that are being shaken by uncertainty and it is hard to say what will happen. They have no real impact on tv anymore than the CCWS does. The IRL also is hated by those who were loyal to CART, and that has stunted their growth. Following the old CART trail to places like Belle Isle wont change that either. That said, the owners here have deeper pockets than some of the CCWS teams, so who knows what might happen in the future?

There are however 4 undeniable truths that all of us better realize:

1)The only race in OW that gets BIG TV ratings and gets any serious attention from Madison Ave. is the 500. You CCWS loyalists can hate that all you want, but it wont change that reality.

2) The CCWS is not going anywhere, so the IRL heads better get THAT reality. KK has too much time and money invested to not see through the next 2 years.

3) A merger is required for American OW racing to be meaningful again. No other solution will bring all the fans together. IF one survives over the other, the fans of the other will go elsewhere. It is THAT serious. A merger of equals is the only solution economically and emotionally for the fans involved.

4)Wishing something so doesn't make it happen. Many of you have said, well after this year the IRL/CCWS will just be fine. It isn't fine. It hasn't been fine. Until there is an economical solution that makes sense and an emotional one that will make a majority of the fans happy, this mess will continue. No wonder we haven't had a merger, that is a tall order.

Oh yes, one more thought. The fact we spend hours arguing about this I still put at the feet at one misguided man/child who lives in Indianapolis. I curse his stupidity and ego that has brought the sport I love to this point. So before anyone throws rocks at me, also understand I have a foot in both camps. I loved the 500 and I loved CART. What I also realize though, is this has to end soon, because, it is much easier and simpler to be an f1 fan or an NASCAR fan or a ALMS fan. I suspect many have realized this, and it is why that American OW is now a sideshow, whereas it used to be the main show.

[garyshell]

There are however 4 undeniable truths that all of us better realize:

1)The only race in OW that gets BIG TV ratings and gets any serious attention from Madison Ave. is the 500. You CCWS loyalists can hate that all you want, but it wont change that reality...

2) The CCWS is not going anywhere, so the IRL heads better get THAT reality...

3) A merger is required for American OW racing to be meaningful again...

4)Wishing something so doesn't make it happen. Many of you have said, well after this year the IRL/CCWS will just be fine. It isn't fine. It hasn't been fine...

Oh yes, one more thought. The fact we spend hours arguing about this I still put at the feet at one misguided man/child who lives in Indianapolis. I curse his stupidity and ego that has brought the sport I love to this point...

As one of those "fantatical in their love for the CCWS" folks you mentioned, I agree with your four, make that five points above. Yes I am fanatical, but I do believe I have been in the camp that says the IRL500 (the race formerly known as the Indy500) has been and will always be the 500 pound gorilla in the room. And as fanatcial as I am I have never been a pollyanna saying everything is gonna be fine. And finally, I thing you ALL know my opinion of "...king George".

Gary

[cache]

The 500 is one race. It doesn't have any positive affect on the rest of the IRL season, it doesn't improve their ratings or attendance. It's been 11 years since the IRL and the traditions are lost on a generation of fans.

IF the Indy 500 was all that was needed, the IRL would be an unqualified success,it is not.

CC does not need Indy.

[jimispeed]

The 500 is one race. It doesn't have any positive affect on the rest of the IRL season, it doesn't improve their ratings or attendance. It's been 11 years since the IRL and the traditions are lost on a generation of fans.

IF the Indy 500 was all that was needed, the IRL would be an unqualified success,it is not.

CC does not need Indy.

This is why I say Champcar should just build its own Oval/Superspeedway, make it a world class facility, make it their marquis race oval and otherwise make it available for other series to benefit from.

[garyshell]

The 500 is one race. It doesn't have any positive affect on the rest of the IRL season, it doesn't improve their ratings or attendance. It's been 11 years since the IRL and the traditions are lost on a generation of fans.

Oh, please you MUST be kidding right? The ONLY reason the IRL even exists or has a TV contract or sponsors is ONE race. The IRL 500. Period. Without it, the TV contract and the sponsors vanish in an instant. Yes, it does nothing to improve the ratings or attendance at the rest of the races but it does ENABLE the rest of the races to exist.


IF the Indy 500 was all that was needed, the IRL would be an unqualified success,it is not.

CC does not need Indy.

No one said it was ALL that was needed, but to pretend that it has no importance at all is, to me, foolish and short sighted. You and I agree on a lot of things but on this one I think you are dead wrong. If CC does not need the IRL500 it at least needs it to NOT exist. As long as it does exist, it will carry a ton of weight.

Gary

[garyshell]

This is why I say Champcar should just build its own Oval/Superspeedway, make it a world class facility, make it their marquis race oval and otherwise make it available for other series to benefit from.

But that would only create a great track. The IRL 500 is not about the facility, it is about the history and tradition. It is that history and tradition that the sponsors want to stand next to. (Just look at how many of them use VINTAGE pictures in their materials.) Tradition is what SELLS the event and, in tow, the series.

Gary

[cache]

Oh, please you MUST be kidding right? The ONLY reason the IRL even exists or has a TV contract or sponsors is ONE race. The IRL 500. Period. Without it, the TV contract and the sponsors vanish in an instant. Yes, it does nothing to improve the ratings or attendance at the rest of the races but it does ENABLE the rest of the races to exist.

You're right, the IRL would not exist without the 500. That has nothing to do with CC. CC will still exist,we've already proved that. The IRL season basically ends in May. Sponsors aren't lining up to get into the IRL or the 500.


No one said it was ALL that was needed, but to pretend that it has no importance at all is, to me, foolish and short sighted. You and I agree on a lot of things but on this one I think you are dead wrong. If CC does not need the IRL500 it at least needs it to NOT exist. As long as it does exist, it will carry a ton of weight.

Gary

The 500 doesn't carry as much traditon or importance as it once did. With every year its slides in attendance and ratings. If it doesn't help the IRL become successful, then why does it matter to CC? It doesn't. Hanging on to old beliefs that the 500 is everything, that is foolish and short-sighted.

[zoostation]

as a general open wheel racing fan who follows f1 the closest, it pains me to read this.

i watch both irl and champ car.

however, i make a point of watching the indy 500.
but i couldnt really care about a lot of the other races in the irl.

IMO, i could see champ car fold by 2010, and the irl continue, however, it could well struggle massively if honda get bored of it.

[garyshell]

The 500 doesn't carry as much traditon or importance as it once did. With every year its slides in attendance and ratings. If it doesn't help the IRL become successful, then why does it matter to CC? It doesn't. Hanging on to old beliefs that the 500 is everything, that is foolish and short-sighted.

Of course it doesn't carry as much as it did. There is no denying that. It may not help the IRL be successful, but it does help it exist. Please note I NEVER said it was everything. That WOULD be foolish. (You are putting words in my mouth.) I only said it is important. Important to sponsors. And that single fact is why it does matter to Champ Car.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Cache, you treat Indy like it is nothing. Until 1995, it was one major race in a lot of good events. It is the roots of the sport though, and THAT is the problem. CCWS without its links to Indianapolis are just another road racing series with OW cars. It is that link to Indy and that history that has been lost, and THAT maybe a lot of the reason sponsors are not just leaping on board. Some people watch 2 races a year, Indy and Daytona. If you don't sponsor a car in those two races, you are missing out on a big market. The fact that the CCWS is not at Indy has hurt them. You don't see it, but we don't spend the off season fighting over where drivers are going and who is buying rides if sponsors have something they can look to for exposure and entertaining clients.

The great unwashed doesn't care about the split, they just know that the Indy 500 is a big deal. If you go to the Speedway live, it will be VERY apparent to you it still is a big deal. Maybe not as big as it was, but to us folk who have never been anywhere but a Champ Car race, it is a BIG freaking deal still. The IRL is dead without that race and yet with it, they are about on par with CCWS for fan attention and exposure. Imagine how much power Champ Car would have with the Indy 500 as its crown jewel?

You keep thinking like a fan, but the fact is, big business is giving Champ Car a pass, and they are struggling to get attention to this day. The economics of the series are now on a firm footing, they have a great car and go lots of places, but for the great unintiated, none of this matters. They know that if they don't watch NASCAR or F1, the Indy 500 is the only race they really know. Long Beach is the one race CCWS loyalists point to as a marquee event, maybe Surfer's or Toronto, but if you look at TV ratings, it is obvious that Long Beach barely changes the numbers on the ratings.

If Champ Car had an Indy 500 level of attraction in one of its events, we would not be talking about CCWS being on hard times, and the split would have never happened. The biggest mistake CART did was abandon the idea of a US 500, and then go back to leaving May open for their teams to try the 500 again. When they did that, Penske, Ganassi and the like realized what they were missing out on and their sponsors did too. That is ONE reason they went back it and it was a reason for Toyota and Honda to drag them there. The sponsors want to be associated with the 500. For that reason alone, it is THE big deal.

[pits4me]

Indy is to American OW as Monaco is to F1 and Lemans is to sports cars. Except that it is much more important in the overall picture.

Not quite Starter. If that were true the Champ would have died a long time ago. The only thing keeping the IRL going is the Indy. The fact Champ has survived without Indy is equally impressive. They have their own marquee events, Long Beach being one of them.

When TG wants the name of one race winner to be bigger than a series championship, that's asking for trouble. Why should sponsors cover the whole season then?

[jimispeed]

KK needs to build a world class facility that's of premier design. A motorsports park that everyone would benefit, and want to race at. Super fan friendly and more challenging, exciting than any driver,entertainment organization or racing series has ever seen!! If Indy is that traditional track we all can't forget, then TG has tarnished it by hanging on it's every thread. I say it's a great time to create something phenomenal in the USA, that turns the whole racing community around!! Champcars new state of the art premier event!! Two events on two different tracks at two different dates... Inviting to many series from all over the world.... Spendy? Definitely!! Worth it? I think so!! Yeah, it's crazy and you're all going to say whatever, but I think it could be done right and be profitable!

[RJL25]

The IRL killed american open wheel racing. PERIOD! No arguments, no bull****, thats what happened. Nascar now OWNS american motorsport and that aint about to change anytime soon. Sorry guys, but the truth hurts.

oh and btw, i love champcar, almost as much as i love V8 Supercars and F1, but i know a dead horse when i see it. Prove me wrong KK! please please please prove me wrong....

[luvracin]

Aaah, you're all full of it.

The future of motorsport is here!!

http://wardsauto.com/ar/hydrogen_racing_series/

[DrDomm]

Of course the only thing keeping the other series going is Indy. CC may not have died yet, but it is still far from healthy. Long Beach a marquee event? Only among CC fans, no where else. The average person on the street has heard of Indy, LeMans, and Monaco. They may not know exactly what goes on there but they're pretty sure it's a race. Ask about Long Beach and they'll tell you that's where the Queen Mary is.


Starter, I'm not completely disagreeing with you. But I was in Long Beach last year (unfortunately my bank account will prevent a return this year), and that was a great event that had some great support from the public in SoCal. Now maybe the buzz doesn't make it too far out of LB, but CC will be on the road to success when it can create 20 LB's. When they have 20 events that are self-sustaining, attact 120K people/weekend, and create the same local/regional buzz as LB, they will be golden. A marquee event would be icing on the cake.

[cartpix]

Aaah, you're all full of it.

The future of motorsport is here!!

http://wardsauto.com/ar/hydrogen_racing_series/

The problem with hydrogen, as a fuel, is the by product is carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. That's the same kind of gas they are trying to eliminate, using alternative fuels. Just thought you ought to know...

Jeff

[garyshell]

The problem with hydrogen, as a fuel, is the by product is carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. That's the same kind of gas they are trying to eliminate, using alternative fuels. Just thought you ought to know...

Jeff

Huh? If I remember my chemistry class (and it has been <cough> years) oxidizing/burning Hydrogen produces water. Where does the carbon come from? You need one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms to produce co2.

Gary

[cartpix]

Not sure where the carbon atom comes from. I think it had something to do with the burning process to oxidize it. They are still working on a different process. I heard it on the Discovery channel, it must be true...

Jeff

[Hoss Ghoul]

The vehicles themselves will have water exhaust.

The carbon dioxide comes from the process of creating the hydrogen fuel itself.


I think there is a difference between a hydrogen powered engine and a hydrogen powered fuel cell/electric vehicle. Not sure.

[Blancvino]

The problem with hydrogen, as a fuel, is the by product is carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. That's the same kind of gas they are trying to eliminate, using alternative fuels. Just thought you ought to know...

Jeff

Sorry, just thought you ought to know the byproduct is actually water (H20)

If you make hydrogen from Natural Gas or other fossil fuels a lot of Carbon Dioxide is expelled as a byproduct

If one would split water molecules using electrolysis powered by solar panels it is 100% NON POLUTTING, 100% renewable

Water split = 2 Hydrogen and 1 Oxygen atoms
Burn Hydrogen = water molecules as it's exhaust - Nothing else

[luvracin]

The vehicles themselves will have water exhaust.

The carbon dioxide comes from the process of creating the hydrogen fuel itself.


I think there is a difference between a hydrogen powered engine and a hydrogen powered fuel cell/electric vehicle. Not sure.

Correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

But this is moving a little, off topic.

I guess my point was a little bit that with IRL and CCWS battling each other here comes a new idea for motor racing that could very well capture people's imaginations and be topical as the same time.

[Bob Riebe]

Cache, you treat Indy like it is nothing. Until 1995, it was one major race in a lot of good events.
It was not one race of good events, it was a singular event to itself, for which egines that were of no use anywhere else were created.
USAC in its last official act, which helped show that CART was ot just formed out of spite, banned the push-rod blown V-8s.


The biggest mistake CART did was abandon the idea of a US 500, want to be associated with the 500. For that reason alone, it is THE big deal.
Roger Penske NEVER abandones what he thinks is correct unless the world is falling down around him because of it.(Point of proof; Penske did not believe that Donahues method of racing was better than the style he was taught. He actually got in the the Camaro, and drove long and hard to prove Donahue wrong. He could not outdo Donahue and grudgingly admitted he was wrong.)

He realized creating it was proably the most asinine thing he ever did, because at the very least, it made him look as petty as George.
Sadly rather than return to Indy the next year, with the new cars and try to show that the teams from CART were the best, they stayed away until CART was a house of cards, starting to fall.
Once it fell, George showed he was boob, without anyone else, helping him.
Bob

[DrDomm]

Bob, the one little historical tidbit you forgot was the 25/8 rule. I forget if it was the first year ('96) or the second ('97). Essentially, the CART teams would have had to run the first 2 IRL races (Phoenix and Disney?) so that they all could be considered for the I500 spots. And yes, if they dominated the I500, the IRL probably would have withered into oblivion. Oh, to dream.

[cartpix]

If you make hydrogen from Natural Gas or other fossil fuels a lot of Carbon Dioxide is expelled as a byproduct

Bingo. That's what I was trying to say. It is creating the fuel. I'm not a scientist (that's pretty figgin' obvious).

Jeff

[Blancvino]

Bingo. That's what I was trying to say. It is creating the fuel. I'm not a scientist (that's pretty figgin' obvious).

Jeff

I'm no scientist ether but I play one on TV :)

Actually I have done some informal investigating this matter and I believe hydrogen and nuclear are the real solution to our dependence on fossil fuels. In my view all other options are stop gap measures at best.

On topic ... NO FRICKIN CHANCE OF A MERGER EVER and I am am glad about that.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Those who are against the idea of a merger are whistling in the dark. The only people who don't want a merger apparently are Tony George and the die-hards here. I can tell you KK will take a merger if he can get control of the result to a large degree. I can tell you the teams on both sides of the fence want a merger. Believe me, they know on the ground what it would mean for them out shopping for sponsors. The IRL teams may have more names on the sidepods, but things are NOT all rosy there any more than they are rosy in Champ Car land.

Robin Miller had a column on the SpeedTV webpage that stated the money being paid out for just the Daytona 500 alone would pay for the purses of whole series of the IRL or Champ Car. Things are THAT far out of whack now. It wasn't that way 14 years ago. Regardless of which series you are a fan of, the reality American OW is on life-support, and the only thing that will save it would be to quit fighting over a diminishing fan base and sponsor base. With one series, all the energy and money is spent on marketing, finding good markets and building a solid schedule with 26 to 30 car fields. THAT alone will bring back fans. For those of you who WONT see it or CANNOT see it, nothing else is going to work. In time, KK will either get tired of spending his money or TG will get tired of spending money to prop up the IRL, and something will happen. It is just a matter of time. Of course, if they wait too long, it just may not matter.....maybe things are too far gone.

[cartpix]

It's not that I'm agaist the merger, I'm just not getting my hopes up. Last year, we had Mark C. telling us it was a done deal, KK & TG saying they were working on it, everybody behind it 100%, & at the end of the day, we were right back where we started. I'm not going to get excited about it. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, I don't know what will become of open wheel racing in America.

Jeff

[nanders]

I'm no scientist ether but I play one on TV :)

Actually I have done some informal investigating this matter and I believe hydrogen and nuclear are the real solution to our dependence on fossil fuels. In my view all other options are stop gap measures at best.

On topic ... NO FRICKIN CHANCE OF A MERGER EVER and I am am glad about that.

I have thought for awhile, that the model that made the Indy 500 so interesting died after Al Junior won in the push rod Mercedes.

My first Indy was in 1963 in the roadster era. The following years saw a growth in technology's that captured many peoples interest. At that time the stars were the cars for many fans. After 1994 the CART then IRL series began to be a highly specified series. That's when the bottom got knocked out of open wheel racing. Remember Tony saying it was in decline anyway .... he knew it was. Everything after 1994 was the INDY SPEC era ... champcar too. Open Wheel interest has been declining since then. It probably would have happened with or without the "split."

A unified series will go nowhere to solve this issue. Only if there is a new and exciting model will Open Wheel have a shot. With that said OWR does have shot, because you know NASCAR will not go hydrogen anytime soon. The BMW internal combustion hydrogen fuel model should be used rather then hydrogen electric. Why ... because people want that throttle response. It will have a familiar feel. And it produces a water by-product. OWR should do it before F1 does it.

The real problem with hydrogen is it's not a source of energy like fossil fuels are. Hydrogen takes energy to manufacture. So to keep it clean it needs to be nuclear. Oh boy!

[BrentJackson]

I have thought for awhile, that the model that made the Indy 500 so interesting died after Al Junior won in the push rod Mercedes.

My first Indy was in 1963 in the roadster era. The following years saw a growth in technology's that captured many peoples interest. At that time the stars were the cars for many fans. After 1994 the CART then IRL series began to be a highly specified series. That's when the bottom got knocked out of open wheel racing. Remember Tony saying it was in decline anyway .... he knew it was. Everything after 1994 was the INDY SPEC era ... champcar too. Open Wheel interest has been declining since then. It probably would have happened with or without the "split."

A unified series will go nowhere to solve this issue. Only if there is a new and exciting model will Open Wheel have a shot. With that said OWR does have shot, because you know NASCAR will not go hydrogen anytime soon. The BMW internal combustion hydrogen fuel model should be used rather then hydrogen electric. Why ... because people want that throttle response. It will have a familiar feel. And it produces a water by-product. OWR should do it before F1 does it.

The real problem with hydrogen is it's not a source of energy like fossil fuels are. Hydrogen takes energy to manufacture. So to keep it clean it needs to be nuclear. Oh boy!

Andy Granatelli had an idea of building cars without stressed engines, with an engine bay big enough you toss in whatever fits and go racing. Obviously the issue here is speed, but if the rules are set right (small venturis and wings, good tires, keep cornering speeds down) you could feasibly do this.

Or just take the ALMS engine rules and run Indycars that way.

[Bob Riebe]

Andy Granatelli had an idea of building cars without stressed engines, with an engine bay big enough you toss in whatever fits and go racing. Obviously the issue here is speed, but if the rules are set right (small venturis and wings, good tires, keep cornering speeds down) you could feasibly do this.

Or just take the ALMS engine rules and run Indycars that way.
Or eliminate the wings period.
Cars gained 25 mph with them and will lose 25 mph without them.

ALMS has become another quasi-spec snooze fest.

[call_me_andrew]

ALMS has become another quasi-spec snooze fest.

Aparently you haven't been watching ALMS lately. I'll admit the racing was a tad dissapointing a few years ago, but it's gotten pretty good.

[weeflyonthewall]

It's not that I'm agaist the merger, I'm just not getting my hopes up. Last year, we had Mark C. telling us it was a done deal, KK & TG saying they were working on it, everybody behind it 100%, & at the end of the day, we were right back where we started. I'm not going to get excited about it. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, I don't know what will become of open wheel racing in America.

Jeff

Mark C was just repeating what he had heard from Autoweek insiders.

[garyshell]

ALMS has become another quasi-spec snooze fest.

ALMS or Grand AM???

Gary

[luvracin]

ALMS has become another quasi-spec snooze fest.

I'll take a "quasi-spec snooze fest" over a "FULL-spec snooze fest" any day.

[weeflyonthewall]

The biggest mistake CART did was abandon the idea of a US 500, and then go back to leaving May open for their teams to try the 500 again. When they did that, Penske, Ganassi and the like realized what they were missing out on and their sponsors did too.

Not much of a decision for CART when Penske sells his tracks to ISC. CART ran his two super speedways, Michigan and Fontana, and Penske's group promoted the races and brought in the fans. ISC had as different agenda. No more open wheel racing in Fontana maybe a good thing, its too hot and smells like a strip mine with remnants of the old Kaiser plant next to it.

[Bob Riebe]

I'll take a "quasi-spec snooze fest" over a "FULL-spec snooze fest" any day.

If there are many fans with such an attitude, it probably explains why road racing in the US has become so pathetic, it does not take much to please the fans.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Bob, you want an interesting techinical exercise, and close racing through Spec rules have always been against your grain. I think though you are part of a minority of really hard core fans. Most of the time, fans don't know what is under the engine cover or care. They just want to see a show. Spec racing rules will give them that show if the rules are done right.

That said, my theory that OW racing would have been more fun if the IRL had taken big motors, no wings and put the engine back in the front...run a modern roadster. THAT would have been justification for blowing up CART and taking the Indy 500 away. All TG did was screw up everything....

[pits4me]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119743&page=2

First off, good post, even if I don't agree with all of it. I do agree that Americans should be more involved, but I don't think for a second Americans are incapable of cheering for "foreigners" espeicially if they are charismatic. PT is the most popular guy in Champ Car and he makes no bones about his Canadian roots. A "Foreign" driver shouldn't be a detriment to the series. Now, the fact that some are f1 rejects does hurt, so I will see you on that score.

AS for the chassis and the merger. I think the issue of merger would be a lot eaiser if both sides sat in a room and put together a game plan for how it would happen. Since Panoz is in bed with the CCWS, and Dallara has many outlets for their products, I would suspect the Panoz DP-02 drawn up to specs for both series ideas would be the compromise. It could be put on the table as 2010 start date, and have the merger done by that date. Pick a year really. I think the top teams of the IRL with testing would be in the same league as NHL or Walker's Aussie Vineyard's team. This isn't rocket science and unlike the advantage Haas had with the Lola's, this is a smaller detail.

What is killing the AOWR scene is the confusion and the bad blood that the split has caused. You took a decent sized fan base and asked it to choose. Many just eventually got tired and left. You are right in saying many don't know who Sam Hornish is. The fact remains many of us, even Champ Car fans know who he is, but it means little because the ratings for HALF a series show up as nothing much. The erosion of the fan base has killed the attraction sponsors could have for the sport, and while there are elements of the original whole, the two parts are shadows of their former glory.

It may be too late...it may not be, but if it is never tried, we will never know. I do know this much. If CCWS, the surviving IRL might be stronger, but not as good or as strong as it would have been if it didn't have some input and change put into it by the CCWS/CART culture. It is imperative that Champ Car runs its own series with a desire to keep going, keep fighting and maybe go its own way, while acknowledging its roots. It needs more Americans who CARE about the series, and for that reason alone, it cannot forget where it came from. There is not enough American interest now, so to turn it into GP2 BETA is not going to help this AT all....

Cotman needs to be allowed to run the series, and KK and the Amigo's have to quit screwing around and either be serious, or sell their interest. KK has so much involved in what he owns to bail now, but he has to let people who know racing on the grass roots run it, get competant marketing people to sell it, and get somebody besides himself to put serious cash into attracting new cars and teams. If he doesn't do all of those things, then he will fail and it is just that simple....

We all have opinions about the split but much of the discussion revolves around the symptoms of the split. The key element frequently overlooked is the imbalance caused when one specific company in an industry (read racing series) undermines a universally accepted pricing structure.

Out of desperation, self-preservation and self-righteousness, someone decided to introduce a "foreclosure" mindset that relied heavily on wholesale underwiting of campaigns by an engine manufacturer (or two). If you undermine the marketvalue and allow campaign costs to exceed revenue brought in by corporate promotional partners (read sponsorship) it quickly becomes a lose lose proposition. With the growing absence of sponsorship CC had but one choice, get operating costs down and get teams off the "welfare"system.

The "foreclosure" model is even effecting stock car racing this year. NASCAR is reaching for outside investment and transitioning to mega teams to make ends meet. I see this as a strategic move by the owners. As they get stronger, they will look for a bigger share of TV revenue like we see in Football, Basketball, MLB, etc.

Many believe ChampCar and the IRL are not even on the same planet yet but they are in some ways. Team owners are looking to expand their reach each year. NHLR being the latest, Rahal, Penske, Ganassi, Andretti, PCM, have all expanded to include multiple forms or racing. I wouldn't be surprised to see PKV eventually partner with a NASCAR team or ALMS team. Owners solidify their market position by being race promoters and or track owners (even if only temporary street circuits).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Since this thread has been sort of jump started, I re-read the whole thread, and was facinated by the venom, the passion, and some of the predictions. First off, both the IRL and CCWS are better this year than they were last in terms of depth of field and race winners.

Second, many of you have disappeared. I haven't seen a posting from Cache, Tio Woody and a few others in a while. That is a shame for sure.

I think if we will keep this sucker on life support, Maybe a few of you wise people should put down a template for how a merger would happen. Most of you seem to see there is a need for one...which in itself is progress.

Ok, here is my quickie scenario.

First off, TG for all his warts has to be part of the picture, for capital if not for any other reason. That said, he needs the teams and he needs to stay away from the day to day marketing and management. Brian Barhardt can run the actual events. Cotman can run the management, or vice versa. Both are competant guys. The Techincal side should be a passed through a committee made up by 2 guys from the teams (nominated yearly from the team owners), 2 guys from the engine manufacturers and 1 guys from the each chassis stake holder. That would be Panoz for now, for unless the next Dallara has any kind of look to it, go with the dP-01.

The marketing and promotions side would be run by new people hired in from the big ad firms who have had a trackrecord of working with motorsport.

The events? Well, I wouldn't want to put together a calender of events but I would aim for 20 to 24 events, and outside of Surfer's, and two events in Europe, I would not go overseas. IF Honda is willing to stay in a new series, ok, we go to Motegi, but I have yet to really see the artistic success of that event.

I would go to Long Beach, Vegas, Phoenix (oval), Mexico City, St. Pete's, Indy, Milwaukee, Texas, Chicagoland Richmond, Toronto, Cleveland, Edmonton, Mont Tremblant (if they get their attendance up), Road America, Mid Ohio, Laguna, Assen, Zolder/Spa,San Jose, Fontana and Surfer's. I could add or subtract. Maybe Chicagoland and Kansas, but the ovals would be the sticking point. I put the ones in that seem to draw well and add drama in their racing. That said, the cars would have to have downforce removed massively to run Texas. I would also think that I would love to take the cars and really clean them up so the drivers would have to rely on mechanical grip and actually drive ovals rather than hang on in a death grip. I would also consider Detroit or Michigan if you like, I am not wedded to all those events. It is just for discussion.

Now, how would this happen. Basically the team owners from both sides should be locked in a room to put together 5 owners to approach KK and TG and say lets get it done. Let them argue over where the capital comes from and how the ownership stake of profits is to be distributed. Tony would be given a little more weight than most promotors of course, since he has the linchpin that has driven the sport historically, but he must get it into his head that he cannot tell other promotors how to run their races. He also must get it into his head that his creation has damn near killed this sport. This is the hard part, getting him to see sense, but I think if the people going to him put it down as a fait accompli, in that they are all on side, he might have to capitulate. His capital and influence has to be moderated, and I think by having bodies of people running the series who are administrators, the rich guys will just stand back and let them do it. I know I am asking for a lot, but the "rich"guys are wrecking the sport. Devolve the power through various means and leave running the sport day to day in the hands of competant people such as Cotman and Barhardt. No matter what side of this argument you sit on , neither one of these guys can be seen as the "problem". If we can find marketing people who can sell the new series for sponsors, and use a little common sense, there is no reason that over the next 10 years, all the damage could heal over and in time, put the sport back up in the top echelon.

Now some of you might notice I have put SMI and ISC tracks on my sched. The reason being is that they I think would like to make more money than they are now from OW, and despite ISC's owners being the same as NASCAR, I think in the long run they would take the extra $$$$ from successful events run at their tracks.

I see TG maybe being interested when one points out he wouldn't have to pay for 10 cars to appear every May. I think he would appreciate also the fact that no one is asking him to toss out his management team and if CC worked with his partners from the word go, then he would run out of reasons to stay away....

[CCFanatic]

No merger. Maybe a merger between a nice salami sandwhich on my mouth, but the IRL and CC. Will not happen. But then again, I saw it could. Only, and I mean only, when the most dumbest guy in America, named Tony George passes from this earth. Even then, with the likes of Penske(who seems to own the IRL), Ganassi, and Brian Barnhardt, as well as those many posters on forums who hate anything CC, a merger is near impossible. You will see AJ Allmendinger win a F1 World Championship before a merger. You will see Martians landing on earth before a merger. You will see the collapse of the modern world before you see a merger. Am I getting my point across? There will be no merger. Tony George does not want it, ISC(Nascar) will fight it as it could be huge competition, and fans(who are the most important part of racing) on both sides against it. I hope it will happen, but not until Tony George and his cohorts no longer are in power.

Just an opinion from a 17 year old CC Fanatic.

[call_me_andrew]

You will see Martians landing on earth before a merger.

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/a/a8/ALH84001_structures.jpg

[weeflyonthewall]

If Champ Car had an Indy 500 level of attraction in one of its events, we would not be talking about CCWS being on hard times, and the split would have never happened. The biggest mistake CART did was abandon the idea of a US 500, and then go back to leaving May open for their teams to try the 500 again. When they did that, Penske, Ganassi and the like realized what they were missing out on and their sponsors did too. That is ONE reason they went back it and it was a reason for Toyota and Honda to drag them there. The sponsors want to be associated with the 500. For that reason alone, it is THE big deal.

If Champ Car had its marquee events? Let's start with Long Beach, the premier open wheel street race in North America. Cleveland is the premier airport circuit and Road America, the road coarse. If you're Canadian, its a toss between Toronto and Edmonton. For Australians, Surfers tops the bill. They may not have the capacity of Indy but combined they are much better than an I500 propped up series. I can't blame CC for avoiding NASCARIZED superspeedways and ovals, especially Michigan. The I500 has to share marquee status in a merger. TG will never agree to it.

[994ever]

The I500 has to share marquee status in a merger.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Now, as far as the topic goes, I don't think there will be a merger. The custodian of the I500 has decided that the best way to protect the race's heritage is to decimate it into near irrelevance, so I don't see why at this stage he would deviate from the strategy. Because the race is now in such a sad state, it can't really get worse, and therefore there is no risk for Mr. George to continue the split.

Instead of maintaining a reactionary, competition-with-IRL-centric business model, CC should try to differentiate itself and create a product identity. These should be the venues (in no particular order) that CC races at: Long Beach, Mexico City, Edmonton, Toronto, Cleveland, Houston, San Jose, Surfer's Paradise, Las Vegas, Phoenix, street race x, street race y, street race z.

All "city" circuits. Everything else is a waste of time.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If Champ Car had its marquee events? Let's start with Long Beach, the premier open wheel street race in North America. Cleveland is the premier airport circuit and Road America, the road coarse. If you're Canadian, its a toss between Toronto and Edmonton. For Australians, Surfers tops the bill. They may not have the capacity of Indy but combined they are much better than an I500 propped up series. I can't blame CC for avoiding NASCARIZED superspeedways and ovals, especially Michigan. The I500 has to share marquee status in a merger. TG will never agree to it.

Good lord you guys are something. Long Beach is a Marquee event for Champ Car, but lets get down to brass tacks. What did it draw? 130000 for the weekend? Maybe 150000? What were the TV ratings? Is Long Beach a pilgramage for just casual fans from across the continent? We know the answers and while it and Toronto are great events, and good street races, you can take all the fans from both and maybe fill all the seats for Indy. There isn't the lore with either race that goes with IRL Indy 500, so lets stop the pretence Champ Car has an event equal to the 500. What is more, neither event even 50 years from now will likely have that kind of loyalty and fame. There are very few Iconic racing events in the world. The Daytona 500, LeMans 24 hours, Monaco GP, and Indy are pretty much it. So lets stop the fiction that Long Beach and Toronto or Cleveland are in the same league.

Now that I have said all of that, it is the reason TG has had this sway. It is the reason he is such a butthole to deal with, but if the sport is to have any relevance beyond us diehards, the attempts to get him to see sense have to be made. I agree it seems unlikely for a merger, but every couple of years a lot of people with more money, success and brains than us try, and all the team owners know it has to be done. There is enough people in OW racing that know it has to be done, and THAT is the reason it will happen one way or another. IT may end up with Tony buying up Champ Car (which would be bad for all of us Champ Car/CART loyalists who saw his power grab for what it was) but in the end, there will be some form of appeasement, merger, capitulation or regrouping. How it happens, and who runs it are the sticky questions.

[weeflyonthewall]

Has the countdown to the 100th Indy has already started? The rumored dinner meeting between Cotman and George may be a move in the right direction.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Weefly, I suspect it is yet another attempt to make something happen that a lot of people here say shouldn't happen or cannot happen. At some point, even the dumbest people in the world can evolve, and while Tony isn't the dumbest man on earth, he probably be hard pressed to beat the dumbest guy at a game of Trivial Pursuit......so we can hope.

[nigelred5]

Absolutely ridiculous.

Now, as far as the topic goes, I don't think there will be a merger. The custodian of the I500 has decided that the best way to protect the race's heritage is to decimate it into near irrelevance, so I don't see why at this stage he would deviate from the strategy. Because the race is now in such a sad state, it can't really get worse, and therefore there is no risk for Mr. George to continue the split.

Instead of maintaining a reactionary, competition-with-IRL-centric business model, CC should try to differentiate itself and create a product identity. These should be the venues (in no particular order) that CC races at: Long Beach, Mexico City, Edmonton, Toronto, Cleveland, Houston, San Jose, Surfer's Paradise, Las Vegas, Phoenix, street race x, street race y, street race z.

All "city" circuits. Everything else is a waste of time.


Where is the "Monaco" in that scenario? Despite all the constant changes in the F1 calendar, No matter how long ago the cars have outgrown the track or how many events may even outdraw it in attendance, F1's premier event is Monaco. What event can you put together for CCWS that has the hope of ever meaning that much to racing on a global scale that the series can never do without it. Long Beach? Please. it's certainly the series premier event, yet It's still nothing more than a port town, home to snoop dog and just one of many parts of what most people consider LA. Thirty years+ and it can't even command a decent TV audience against a golf match for national attention.

The day CCWS announces essentially a 100% street schedule should be the same day they give it the big "F it all" and throw in the towel. Most STREET races make CRAP TV. The series will not and can not rely on nothnig but event attendance. I can throw a crab feast that will draw 70K annually. does anyone want to put that on TV. I don't care how exciting or fun it is to be there, I'm not going to watch an entire season of it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Where is the "Monaco" in that scenario? Despite all the constant changes in the F1 calendar, No matter how long ago the cars have outgrown the track or how many events may even outdraw it in attendance, F1's premier event is Monaco. What event can you put together for CCWS that has the hope of ever meaning that much to racing on a global scale that the series can never do without it. Long Beach? Please. it's certainly the series premier event, yet It's still nothing more than a port town, home to snoop dog and just one of many parts of what most people consider LA. Thirty years+ and it can't even command a decent TV audience against a golf match for national attention.

The day CCWS announces essentially a 100% street schedule should be the same day they give it the big "F it all" and throw in the towel. Most STREET races make CRAP TV. The series will not and can not rely on nothnig but event attendance. I can throw a crab feast that will draw 70K annually. does anyone want to put that on TV. I don't care how exciting or fun it is to be there, I'm not going to watch an entire season of it.


Oh Nige, that is fighting words. Say anything bad against an all street race sched and there are some fans here that will crucify you. You are 100% right though. What your opponents (and mine) wont get through their head while Surfer's is a fantastic event, Long Beach is great, Toronto is wonderful, if you aint there, you don't feel like you missed some epic piece of history if you dont' watch. For all the greatness that Champ Car fans give Long Beach, I bet half of them would transfer their allegiance to something else if Long Beach held its last race in the Spring. You know you have an epic event when people wont watch any other of your races but this one, it is the one that non-fans identify as part of your brand and it is one that would continue on even if the series that supplies it disappeared. Long Beach came close in the sense with f1 leaving and CART arriving, but that was a different CART than the CCWS is. If CCWS folded tomorrow, Long Beach would become another IRL event, but it wouldn't make it more than it already is. If the IRL and CCWS were gone tomorrow, likely Long Beach might be gone also.

There are only about a handful of signature events at venues so venerated that they transcend their sport. Monaco is one, Daytona 500 is another, 24hrs of Le Mans is a third, and like it or not, the Indy 500, despite Tony Georges power plays and diminishing of the event is another. If Tony died tomorrow, and the IRL croaked the day after that, you know something would be the formula for the Indy 500, and provided it was done with any kind of respect for tradition, the place would be packed and people would watch on TV. IT was an event before there was ANY series......and nothing Champ Car has right now can compare. It just cant.

[jimispeed]

Oh Nige, that is fighting words. Say anything bad against an all street race sched and there are some fans here that will crucify you. You are 100% right though. What your opponents (and mine) wont get through their head while Surfer's is a fantastic event, Long Beach is great, Toronto is wonderful, if you aint there, you don't feel like you missed some epic piece of history if you dont' watch. For all the greatness that Champ Car fans give Long Beach, I bet half of them would transfer their allegiance to something else if Long Beach held its last race in the Spring. You know you have an epic event when people wont watch any other of your races but this one, it is the one that non-fans identify as part of your brand and it is one that would continue on even if the series that supplies it disappeared. Long Beach came close in the sense with f1 leaving and CART arriving, but that was a different CART than the CCWS is. If CCWS folded tomorrow, Long Beach would become another IRL event, but it wouldn't make it more than it already is. If the IRL and CCWS were gone tomorrow, likely Long Beach might be gone also.

There are only about a handful of signature events at venues so venerated that they transcend their sport. Monaco is one, Daytona 500 is another, 24hrs of Le Mans is a third, and like it or not, the Indy 500, despite Tony Georges power plays and diminishing of the event is another. If Tony died tomorrow, and the IRL croaked the day after that, you know something would be the formula for the Indy 500, and provided it was done with any kind of respect for tradition, the place would be packed and people would watch on TV. IT was an event before there was ANY series......and nothing Champ Car has right now can compare. It just cant.


And is your point that Champcar can't have a marquee event that people will come to love and want to experience for a lifetime? I disagree. I think that Champcar is more than capable of creating that type of atmosphere, they just need to do it!! It's a focus that Champcar should be willing to commit to.


Go ahead, here's the perfect opportunity to beat it down....

[nigelred5]

And is your point that Champcar can't have a marquee event that people will come to love and want to experience for a lifetime? I disagree. I think that Champcar is more than capable of creating that type of atmosphere, they just need to do it!! It's a focus that Champcar should be willing to commit to.


Go ahead, here's the perfect opportunity to beat it down....

As I said, WHERE would you create that event and WHEN would you hold it? There has to be something special about the venue, or the date or BOTH. What venue has the glitz, the pizzaz, the racing history, the allure that any of those other events has acheived? Don't get me wrong, I long for the days Champcar could achieve that level of an event. As great of an event as Surfers is, it is off-shore and does little to nothing to fix the core problem. Lack of a true Marquee, top-ten type event on the annual US sports calendar. Long Beach isn't even top 20 any more. Sad, but true.

[garyshell]

And is your point that Champcar can't have a marquee event that people will come to love and want to experience for a lifetime? I disagree. I think that Champcar is more than capable of creating that type of atmosphere, they just need to do it!! It's a focus that Champcar should be willing to commit to.



Mark didn't say that ChampCar can't create a marquee event, he said they can't create one with the same stature as Monaco, Daytona, Le Mans or Indy. And he is right! You can't set out to create such an event. These sort of things HAPPEN, they aren't made.

Look, my disdain for "...king George" and his IRL vision runs second to no one here, but I am realistic enough to know that Indy is the 500 pound gorilla in the conversation.

I am curious, how do you propose that Champ Car should go about "creating that type of atmosphere". What could they possibly do to pull that off?

Gary

[jimispeed]

I am curious, how do you propose that Champ Car should go about "creating that type of atmosphere". What could they possibly do to pull that off?

Gary


I don't really know, maybe a specific course that drivers and fans love would be a good start. A place that is also surrounded by picturescue beauty. Whatever it may be, the right kind of videography, story writing and promoting of excitement can do a world of wonders for a worthy venue. Especially on television. Every fan who is at the track in that kind of environment is inspired just by being there!! I personally would love Long Beach, Elkhart Lake or most recently Mont Tremblant to be promoted in that way. Fanfare in Europe for Robert Doornbos certainly looks great and we haven't even gotten to see Champcar race at these European venues yet.

Maybe Champcar is a little more like F1 in this category in that many of the courses Champcar races on are unique in themselves! I strongly believe that Champcar needs to pound the promotion hard and make deep educated decisions about how they present each race to their present and future fans. Great self marketing is one of the best ways for Champcar to finish their proposal to the world. Create a buzz about the greatest series that not enough people know about!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

And is your point that Champcar can't have a marquee event that people will come to love and want to experience for a lifetime? I disagree. I think that Champcar is more than capable of creating that type of atmosphere, they just need to do it!! It's a focus that Champcar should be willing to commit to.


Go ahead, here's the perfect opportunity to beat it down....


Jimi, they are not even trying to do that. They are just in survival mode, but this is the problem. They need something to vault them forward with one great leap of publicity and buzz. Put a huge purse on the line for a special race at a great venue. It would be a money loser up front, but maybe, just maybe it would get people's attention.

Gary is right, these things usually sort of evolve, but in the case of Champ Car, they are inheriting about 10 years of bad decisions made by the people at CART. They had a great venue and traditional event with Milwaukee. They mismanaged that one. They had the US500, which if it was held every year as a protest to the IMS 500, it would have had more credence, but they took it from Michigan and dumped it at the Gateway oval, which is a dump by just about anyone's estimation. They bailed on Mid Ohio, a true jewel of a track. The stupidity of some of the moves is just incredible. Eurospeedway drew well both times they went there, and is a great venue, but are they going back? No...and WHY???? They have lost something by dumping the ovals, and here was one that is unique, drew well, and doesn't have any connections to NASCAR.

No, venue choice and making a marquee event were options CART had and blew. Now CCWS is cash strapped (in that KK spent most of his money on infrastructure such as Cosworth, and buying up Long Beach and Toronto rights) and they are in survival mode. It is to weep. They have a decent product, but they have lost so much momentum and goodwill that now they are stuck. Of course, how do they react? By shooting the messenger when he points this stuff out. It HAS to stop sometime or this series is going to be looking up at where they now next year and thinking this was better....and it isn't great as it is.

[jimispeed]

Jimi, they are not even trying to do that.


Well, that is exactly what they should be doing!!

[Pat Wiatrowski]

No Mark, Miwauukee was NOT mismanaged by CC. There was NO promotion by the promoter for years. That was the problem.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fine Pat, then they should have done the promotion anyhow and sent the guy the bill. Better yet, when they took it over (Forsythe I believe had it the last few years did he not? or was it someone else?) they should have kept it alive. You have a connection with a venerated venue where you have raced for about as long as there has been race cars, and you dump it because the local guy wont play ball? Then you get rid of him, try once and then walk away? You walk away from 90 years of freaking history????????Please....don't tell me this is a good thing...

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Fine Pat, then they should have done the promotion anyhow and sent the guy the bill. Better yet, when they took it over (Forsythe I believe had it the last few years did he not? or was it someone else?) they should have kept it alive. You have a connection with a venerated venue where you have raced for about as long as there has been race cars, and you dump it because the local guy wont play ball? Then you get rid of him, try once and then walk away? You walk away from 90 years of freaking history????????Please....don't tell me this is a good thing...


GF never had anything to do with the Mile, Haas did years prior and the Mile had good crowds when he promoted the track. The local promoters had limited resources. It is not CC's job to promoted individual events, only the series.

[weeflyonthewall]

GF never had anything to do with the Mile, Haas did years prior and the Mile had good crowds when he promoted the track. The local promoters had limited resources. It is not CC's job to promoted individual events, only the series.

Doesn't the legacy of The Mile go back to the follow-up weekend following Indy? When the other league decided to go to Texas and CC dropped the US500 at Michigan the writing was on the wall. Some fans thank the only solution is to throw money at it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

GF never had anything to do with the Mile, Haas did years prior and the Mile had good crowds when he promoted the track. The local promoters had limited resources. It is not CC's job to promoted individual events, only the series.


My apolgies, I knew it was one of the owners who had a piece of the action in Milwaukee. Just had the wrong one. No matter, you say it isn't CC job to promote individual events? BS it aint. They cant put their future in the hands of others, because in the end, it is Champ Car that is losing out if the event doesn't work. Losing Milwaukee was a real gut shot in the body to this series because when the last oval was gone, they became f1 lite. IT is NOT where you want to be. You may not want to run all the ovals the IRL does, but you have to keep a few around to be unique as an American OW series. If Milwaukee wasn't drawing, then someone from CART/CCWS should have been in there with some sort of hammer to get promotions going, and getting a cut of the gate in return for the extra costs, but by no means should they be just bailing on the event because the idiot they let pay the sanctioning fee didn't have any dough left over to draw people in.

I think there is an assumption in CCWS head office and on this board that this is the greatest series in the world and it doesn't need anyone to sell it. It could be the best series in the world in time, but right now it is a skeleton of what it should be, and the only way to get there is by hard work and money being spent on promotion. We aint seeing the money, and we are NOT seeing a lot of promotion as a result. The hard work seems to be on intangibles, and finding new fields to salt after 2 years like they have done with Brands Hatch, Lausitz, Denver and Milwaukee.

[weeflyonthewall]

Is there a hole in CC's May 2008 schedule for a reason? I guess that depends on what rumors we'd like to believe. How many drivers in Mexico were thinking they might be at Indy next year? Is Rahal possibly teaming up with NHLR. Will Marco get a taste of Long Beach in a one-off for the 30th anniversary?

[Hoss Ghoul]

I for one have never understood CC's teams/the series hesitancy to run the Indy 500.

Perhaps money is the issue, perhaps they are afraid of running poorly and looking bad(given the last 3-4 years, I doubt this, they can't look worse!).

In my mind running Indy(well) with 4-8 cars will enhance the series image, make the drivers and teams look better, and be an overall benefit to AOWR. With CC going even more international in 2008 this becomes even more true/relevant. If they are truly expanding beyond the NA market in a legitimate capacity, the cache of the Indy 500 can only help them.

How that impacts the IRL...I don't know, but it won't hurt the Indy 500, that much is sure. Beyond that, I imagine the impact would be relatively small, smaller than the impact CC teams participating in the Indy 500 would have for them. My .02 cents.

[sanguin]

I for one have never understood CC's teams/the series hesitancy to run the Indy 500.

Perhaps money is the issue, perhaps they are afraid of running poorly and looking bad(given the last 3-4 years, I doubt this, they can't look worse!).

In my mind running Indy(well) with 4-8 cars will enhance the series image, make the drivers and teams look better, and be an overall benefit to AOWR. With CC going even more international in 2008 this becomes even more true/relevant. If they are truly expanding beyond the NA market in a legitimate capacity, the cache of the Indy 500 can only help them.

How that impacts the IRL...I don't know, but it won't hurt the Indy 500, that much is sure. Beyond that, I imagine the impact would be relatively small, smaller than the impact CC teams participating in the Indy 500 would have for them. My .02 cents.

Those are good questions.

First why would CC endorse TG's race? All it does is give TG and his league credibility.

Second, what has the 500 done for the IRL in terms of increased attendance or tv ratings for the rest of their season, nothing.If it doesn't do anything for the league what would it matter to CC? CC should continue with its own events and not rely on one race.

[seppefan]

I for one have never understood CC's teams/the series hesitancy to run the Indy 500.

Perhaps money is the issue, perhaps they are afraid of running poorly and looking bad(given the last 3-4 years, I doubt this, they can't look worse!).

In my mind running Indy(well) with 4-8 cars will enhance the series image, make the drivers and teams look better, and be an overall benefit to AOWR. With CC going even more international in 2008 this becomes even more true/relevant. If they are truly expanding beyond the NA market in a legitimate capacity, the cache of the Indy 500 can only help them.

How that impacts the IRL...I don't know, but it won't hurt the Indy 500, that much is sure. Beyond that, I imagine the impact would be relatively small, smaller than the impact CC teams participating in the Indy 500 would have for them. My .02 cents.

I wish they ran to whip the tail of AGR !

Seriously though some of the 33 drivers are not cracked up for the job at the slow end of the field, maybe have not raced for a year or even more and I feel that it is more dangerous now than ever for that reason. I know that is not what you were meaning by your comment but I feel that it is valid. Ask Bruno J.

[pits4me]

Even some of the IRL teams who already have equipment are struggling with money issues.

Happens when sidepods become a significant part of a charity effort. Undermining the value of sponsorship effects all forms of racing. If there is value to getting CC drivers at Indy in 2008, it will be a good start to getting this open wheel mess behind us. Who's up for a TG tar & feather photo-op?

[weeflyonthewall]

Doesn't the legacy of The Mile go back to the follow-up weekend following Indy? When the other league decided to go to Texas and CC dropped the US500 at Michigan the writing was on the wall. Some fans thank the only solution is to throw money at it.

May be this will happen in 2009.