0-60 mph times

[Andy Gregory]

It's been well documented that the Group B cars could reach 60 miles per hour (from standstill) in about 2.3 seconds. The modern WRC machines acheive 60mph in 3 seconds, but what about the Group A cars in between.

Does anyone know the official figures for the following cars: 1987 Group A Lancia Delta HF Turbo (8 valve), 1990 Group A Toyota Celica GT4 ST165 and the 1995 Group A Subaru Impreza 555.

It'd be interesting to know.

[janvanvurpa]

It's been well documented that the Group B cars could reach 60 miles per hour (from standstill) in about 2.3 seconds. The modern WRC machines acheive 60mph in 3 seconds, but what about the Group A cars in between.

Does anyone know the official figures for the following cars: 1987 Group A Lancia Delta HF Turbo (8 valve), 1990 Group A Toyota Celica GT4 ST165 and the 1995 Group A Subaru Impreza 555.

It'd be interesting to know.

You do know that what the motor makes ----or doesn't---the final drive can dontcha?
Then there's min weights.
Restrictors on the turbo inlet going ever smaller.

And on and on.
Very hard to say with certainty anything this or that was/is decisive.

Ever compare winners average speed on stages?
Much better idea of the overall capability of the cars than zero- 60 stuff.
What surface for example?

The Swedish magazine "Rally" uised to to 40 km/hr to 50 or 60 and on and on and 90km to110, 120, 130, 140km/hr replicating the way rallycars are run.

That would be far more interesting.

[shurik]

the answer would be "bloody fast" I suppose, but, as janvanvupra said there is a lot of factors involved. My guess is 0-160-0 test would be the most objective in this case.
just to give something to start with..
stock 1987 Integrale was capable of doing 6.6 to100
stock celica did 0-100 in 7.8
impreza - 6.3
imo if you shave off around 2 seconds of this figures you would get somewhere close

[Magnus]

IMHO it is not a question possible to ask without given parameters regarding tires, the preffered gear set for the stage in question and information regarding temperature (boost pressure), humidity, stage length (fuel amount) friction, temperature of road, altitude and some other variables. I also do not know to what extent you where allowed at this time to change for example camshaft for different driving environments.
All in all it is a difficult question.

[Viking]

Grøndal Subaru S10 2,45s, tarmac.

http://andersgrondal.com/Webdesk/netblast/pages/index.html;jsessionid=1D0BF4BFBFBFA630B69DC06C88E0 513A?id=1014226

[rx-guru]

I sincerely doubt and question that the GpB cars for rallying did 0–100km/h (or even 0–60mph) in about 2.3s. The GpB cars for Rallycross did that, with more bhp, torque as well as shorter ratios and very soft slicks. Strange enough that some of the nowadays ERC cars are claimed to do it in less than 2.0s, although hampered by a 45mm turbo restrictor.

[shurik]

2.3, 2 seconds is the time of super bike acceleration.. Sound impossible for a car without slicks and drag race setup..
If I'm not mistaking, in Discovery series about Subaru team there was a mentioning about 0 to 60 around 4.6sec in 2005 Subaru :/

[rx-guru]

The cover of the Swedish magazine Teknikens Värld, issue no 21 of October 10 1984, reads:

"Schanches Escort 4WD: 0–100 på 2,5 sek!"

They did a test drive of the first ever Xtrac (Norwegian Martin Schanche's Rallycross Ford Escort XR3 T16 4x4 with its mighty 560bhp Zakspeed 1860cc engine) and pushed it nearly a quarter of a century ago already to 2.5s…

Happy birthday soon! The first ever Xtrac at its début in 1983: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SchancheZakowskiXtracGBRXGP1983.jpg

[rx-guru]

The cover of the Swedish magazine Teknikens Värld, issue no 21 of October 10 1984, reads:

"Schanches Escort 4WD: 0–100 på 2,5 sek!"

They did a test drive of the first ever Xtrac (Norwegian Martin Schanche's Rallycross Ford Escort XR3 T16 4x4 with its mighty 560bhp Zakspeed 1860cc engine) and pushed it nearly a quarter of a century ago already to 2.5s…

Happy birthday soon! The first ever Xtrac at its début in 1983: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:SchancheZakowskiXtracGBRXGP1983.jpg

BTW, the very car is still well and competitive (for sprints and hillclimbs) and lives nowadays with its current owner Mike "Mister Xtrac" Endean on the Channel Island of Guernsey.

[Helstar]

I sincerely doubt and question that the GpB cars for rallying did 0–100km/h (or even 0–60mph) in about 2.3s.
After seeing this video, I don't know if to believe you or what I see ... :D ;) lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY--2UTzom4&fmt=18

[Andy Gregory]

This is part of an e mail I received from John Davenport. John was head of the Austin Rover team and had a lot to do with the MG Metro 6R4 in the Group B era.

This is what he had to say about the 6R4's 0-60 time:

Autocar tested a standard 6R4 and one of the full rally cars that we brought back from the abortive trip to Portugal in 1986. They timed the rally car at 2.8 seconds 0-60mph and, as far as I know, that is still one of the fastest cars over that particular criterion that they have ever tested. It was able to do it, incidentally, since the V6 could be revved above it normal limit of 9,600rpm and thus they were able to hold second gear to achieve 60mph without popping it into third. Frankly, I doubt if the Delta S4 or Quattro E2 would have been faster had they ever been tested under rigorous conditions as there was always some delay in getting the gases flowing through their long and complicated induction systems. Mind you, once past 60mph, they would have been gone ...

[Magnus]

IMHO it is not a question possible to ask without given parameters regarding tires, the preffered gear set for the stage in question and information regarding temperature (boost pressure), humidity, stage length (fuel amount) friction, temperature of road, altitude and some other variables. I also do not know to what extent you where allowed at this time to change for example camshaft for different driving environments.
All in all it is a difficult question.
OT:
reporter: Hi Magnus! Nice seing you again! Where have you been all this time?
M: Well, you know: a lot of work. And I also experienced some computerprobs which ultimately led to an exclusion from the CMR championships.

reporter: So know that youre back: any new plans?
M: Not really. I am aiming at producing good results here on the forum, with some nice posts now and then. As for the next season I have not signed anything yet. It is to early for that.

Reporter: Well I know that you have been dearly missed by fellow forumers, not least your intelligent comments and nice approach to other forumers and issues of our sport. Nice to have you back and all the best for the challenges to come!
M: Thank you very much! (waiving to the audience)
(forumers and fans cheering and applauding)
(agent escorting Magnus out)
:D

[Brother John]

OT:
reporter: Hi Magnus! Nice seing you again! Where have you been all this time?
M: Well, you know: a lot of work. And I also experienced some computerprobs which ultimately led to an exclusion from the CMR championships.

reporter: So know that youre back: any new plans?
M: Not really. I am aiming at producing good results here on the forum, with some nice posts now and then. As for the next season I have not signed anything yet. It is to early for that.

Reporter: Well I know that you have been dearly missed by fellow forumers, not least your intelligent comments and nice approach to other forumers and issues of our sport. Nice to have you back and all the best for the challenges to come!
M: Thank you very much! (waiving to the audience)
(forumers and fans cheering and applauding)
(agent escorting Magnus out)
:D

:s mokin: :up: :wave:

[rx-guru]

After seeing this video, I don't know if to believe you or what I see ... :D ;) lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY--2UTzom4&fmt=18

A current GpB Lancia Delta S4 for Hillclimbs (with 600+bhp) is as much a GpB car for Rallying (with 450+bhp) as a GpB car for Rallycross (with 650+bhp) ever was. Hillclimb and Rallycross cars are specials made for nothing else but sprint racing. Would you also compare apples with pears…?

[Nenukknak]

Data Audi Quattro Sport E2 (with PDK gearbox)

0-100km/h: 2.6 seconds and 41.9 metres
0-200km/h: about 10.0 seconds and 359 metres

Gears as follow:

1. 72kph
2. 109kph
3. 143kph
4. 187kph
5. 227kph

[Helstar]

A current GpB Lancia Delta S4 for Hillclimbs (with 600+bhp) is as much a GpB car for Rallying (with 450+bhp) as a GpB car for Rallycross (with 650+bhp) ever was. Hillclimb and Rallycross cars are specials made for nothing else but sprint racing. Would you also compare apples with pears…?
Oh ok, sorry ... then look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-iRifVkJc&fmt=18

Must be surely some Hillclimb or Rallycross modified S4, ye ... http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[rx-guru]

Oh ok, sorry ... then look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y-iRifVkJc&fmt=18

Must be surely some Hillclimb or Rallycross modified S4, ye ... http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Without watching the entire clip this is the true Rally GpB stuff of the mid 1980s and I am almost certain that exactely those WRC cars did the 0–100km/h sprint never in under 3 seconds. BTW, did you ever see those beasts live during their time or do you know them by watching old videos only...?

[rx-guru]

Data Audi Quattro Sport E2 (with PDK gearbox)

0-100km/h: 2.6 seconds and 41.9 metres
0-200km/h: about 10.0 seconds and 359 metres

Gears as follow:

1. 72kph
2. 109kph
3. 143kph
4. 187kph
5. 227kph

I guess you mean the Audi Sport quattro S1. 'E2' is a Peugeot tag.
See Audi's official website (small q, S1 and nothing about E2): http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/unternehmen/historie/letzte_jahrzehnte/60er_bis_80er_jahre/audi_quattro.html

[Nenukknak]

I guess you mean the Audi Sport quattro S1. 'E2' is a Peugeot tag.
See Audi's official website (small q, S1 and nothing about E2): http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/unternehmen/historie/letzte_jahrzehnte/60er_bis_80er_jahre/audi_quattro.html

I guess someone wants to be a wise@ss? It's irrelevant, but your answer reeks of arrogance, so allow me to retort.

It's a common/popular mistake, but if you know what you're talking about it's really easy. I'll explain so that you can understand :p .

The S1 is the first rally version of the Sport Quattro.

Let me break it down for you:

Road-version 200 cars: Sport Quattro

First evolution (car used for rallying) 20 cars: Sport Quattro S1 (meaning Sport 1)

Second evolution (the winged beast) also 20 cars: Audi (Sport) Quattro E2

The name E2 was necessary, since the FIA decided that from the start of 1985 the evolutions were denominated by the number of the evolution after the letter "E".

By the way, Audi and Peugeot were the only ones who had (real) second evolutions. So it's logical that the only other place were you heard E2 was at Peugeot.

So again at Peugeot:

road-going version (200 cars): Peugeot 205t16

first evo (used for rallying)(20 cars): Peugeot 205t16

second evo (used for rallying)(20 cars): Peugeot 205t16 E2

The first evo usually had the same name as the roadcar, adding Evo1 or E1 was optional, Audi decided on S1.

And in some cases the roadversion was also initially used for rally, for instance Lancia with the 037 and Ford with the RS200 (who nevered got to rally an Evo version in WRC).

[Nenukknak]

And about the small "q", you're havin' a laugh right?

[rx-guru]

@ Nenukknak:
Are you trying to tell me something that you just know from hearsay? You have been an 8-year-old kid when the GpB cars had already left rallying...

Audi built a total of 220 Sport quattros (134 red, 48 white, 21 blue, 15 green, 2 black), and definitely not 240. About 170 road going units were sold to privateers, while Audi self used 45 of the 220. The unwinged car was the Audi Sport quattro for both, street use and rallying. The winged car was the Audi Sport quattro S1 (some may call it the 'E1' version of the Sport quattro). There have been no WRCs of Audi Sport that were called 'E2' by them.

And the Audi AG never used a capital Q for the quattro, as the Italian word is written with a small q.

BTW, you don't need to tell me anything about the Ford RS200 'Evolution'. I was with Martin Schanche when he debuted the first ever RS200 'E' (in RX we use the tag 'E2') at the 1986 British RX GP in December at Brands Hatch. One week later we were together with John Taylor and Stig Blomqvist at Bologna in Italy where Schanche did the second 'Memorial Bettega' on invitation by Ford. Stig, who used a 1.8 litre WRC that weekend, had a test drive with Martin's 2.1 litre RS200 to call it subsequently an "absolutely undriveable car". The Ford RS200 'Evolution' was homologated purely for RX and about half of the 20 cars were regularely used in the ERC between 1987 and 1992.

[Helstar]

Without watching the entire clip this is the true Rally GpB stuff of the mid 1980s and I am almost certain that exactely those WRC cars did the 0–100km/h sprint never in under 3 seconds. BTW, did you ever see those beasts live during their time or do you know them by watching old videos only...?
Born in 1974, do your counts :p and Nenukknak pwned you ^^

Btw, who cares about RX ? We are talking about Gr.B cars acceleration.
And they could do those performances (100km/h in less than 3 sec), you can know whoever and whatever, bragging about your age, knowledge and friends, it still remains a fact you can't deny.

[Daniel]

@ Nenukknak:
Are you trying to tell me something that you just know from hearsay? You have been an 8-year-old kid when the GpB cars had already left rallying...

Audi built a total of 220 Sport quattros (134 red, 48 white, 21 blue, 15 green, 2 black), and definitely not 240. About 170 road going units were sold to privateers, while Audi self used 45 of the 220. The unwinged car was the Audi Sport quattro for both, street use and rallying. The winged car was the Audi Sport quattro S1 (some may call it the 'E1' version of the Sport quattro). There have been no WRCs of Audi Sport that were called 'E2' by them.

And the Audi AG never used a capital Q for the quattro, as the Italian word is written with a small q.

BTW, you don't need to tell me anything about the Ford RS200 'Evolution'. I was with Martin Schanche when he debuted the first ever RS200 'E' (in RX we use the tag 'E2') at the 1986 British RX GP in December at Brands Hatch. One week later we were together with John Taylor and Stig Blomqvist at Bologna in Italy where Schanche did the second 'Memorial Bettega' on invitation by Ford. Stig, who used a 1.8 litre WRC that weekend, had a test drive with Martin's 2.1 litre RS200 to call it subsequently an "absolutely undriveable car". The Ford RS200 'Evolution' was homologated purely for RX and about half of the 20 cars were regularely used in the ERC between 1987 and 1992.

A lot of people call the S1 the E2. It's just the way it is. Me? Personally I call it the S1 but E2 is also perfectly acceptable.

[rx-guru]

Born in 1974, do your counts :p and Nenukknak pwned you ^^

Btw, who cares about RX ? We are talking about Gr.B cars acceleration.
And they could do those performances (100km/h in less than 3 sec), you can know whoever and whatever, bragging about your age, knowledge and friends, it still remains a fact you can't deny.

Blimey chap, I don't give even 1 cent in return for your 2 cent. Prove your so-called "fact" by serious references instead of trying to read your knowledge out of old videos or gossip. And if you can't – on yer bike!

[rx-guru]

A lot of people call the S1 the E2. It's just the way it is.

Okay! People can also call an apple a pear. As long as they do not try to make the world believe that an apple is a pear...

[Nenukknak]

@ Nenukknak:
Are you trying to tell me something that you just know from hearsay? You have been an 8-year-old kid when the GpB cars had already left rallying...

Audi built a total of 220 Sport quattros (134 red, 48 white, 21 blue, 15 green, 2 black), and definitely not 240. About 170 road going units were sold to privateers, while Audi self used 45 of the 220. The unwinged car was the Audi Sport quattro for both, street use and rallying. The winged car was the Audi Sport quattro S1 (some may call it the 'E1' version of the Sport quattro). There have been no WRCs of Audi Sport that were called 'E2' by them.

And the Audi AG never used a capital Q for the quattro, as the Italian word is written with a small q.

BTW, you don't need to tell me anything about the Ford RS200 'Evolution'. I was with Martin Schanche when he debuted the first ever RS200 'E' (in RX we use the tag 'E2') at the 1986 British RX GP in December at Brands Hatch. One week later we were together with John Taylor and Stig Blomqvist at Bologna in Italy where Schanche did the second 'Memorial Bettega' on invitation by Ford. Stig, who used a 1.8 litre WRC that weekend, had a test drive with Martin's 2.1 litre RS200 to call it subsequently an "absolutely undriveable car". The Ford RS200 'Evolution' was homologated purely for RX and about half of the 20 cars were regularely used in the ERC between 1987 and 1992.

If I believe you than I would again hear it from hearsay, so what changes then?? Everything I know from that era is from hearsay, since as you so wisely point out I was too young to even know of rallying back then.

But that doesn't mean I haven't read the books of respectable authors/reporters that are at least as if not more credible than you as a source (I don't know you, so this is nothing against you)

I'm not denying that Audi didn't build 240 sport quattros, I was just explaining the homologation procedure. Most of the S1s were simply converted to the E2.

The unwinged car for the road and the one used for rally, were certainly different. hence the S1 for the competition version.

As even Roehrl calls it the E2 and never uses the term S1, I'm gonna go with my version on this one. I can also imagine that what is stated on homologation papers is different than what is popular reference (even by AUDI).

One more thing I will say. For you as a reporter to discard my knowledge (be that correctly or false)/comments on the basis that I was just a kid and just hear it from hearsay is pretty pour, and is an arrogant and stupid viewpoint. Ok, we get it, you are old, you were there and that makes you mister know it all.
While I (as young as I am) read about those things by reading books/articles just as you as a reporter probably make. By your rationale, who reads your articles still doesn't know anything because he wasn't there. What's the point of journalists then?

[jonkka]

David Williams on Klein's Rally Cars, page 382:
"Some regard all short Quattros as S1s, but if so, some were more equal than others. The 1985 evolution, with its cowcatcher front spoiler and huge rear wings, was a very different machine that restored Audi's self-respect, if not it's dominance and was homologated as Quattro E2".

Both Martin Holmes' World Rallying 8 and 9 (1985, 1986) call it "Audi Sport Quattro E2".

Both Rallycourse 1985 and 1986 call it "Audi Quattro Sport S1".
Additionally, Martin Sharp on 1985 technical review (page 46) writes "but with the development the S1 chassis - relocating as many ancillary components as possible in the rear of the car - Audi got its static weight distribution to 52 front / 48 rear".

Jeremy Walton refers to it in Rallyworld 1986, writing "It took another evolution of the Quattro (July 1985's winged S1)" (page 123).
Also in technical specification list it's title "Audi Sport Quattro S1".

Both Graham Robson's "MRP Rally Library vol 1: Audi" and "Kimberley's Rally Team Guide 1" were printed before the car debuted.

So, both E2 and S1 are used to refer to the latest spec Audi quattro. But neither Holmes' World Rallying 7 (1984) nor Rallycourse 1984 call the short quattro as S1, instead use name "Audi Quattro Sport" (the place of word "Sport" being different between them).

I'd call that indecisive except that there is no evidence of calling the first version as S1.

I call 'em Audi quattro Sport and Audi quattro S1 respectively (with small q, S1 reserved solely for 2nd evolution and without the word "sport").

[jonkka]

Just my 2c, I am not going to get involved in this argument any further.

[Nenukknak]

Just my 2c, I am not going to get involved in this argument any further.

Smart :D

By the way, the way you stated it is how I always thought it. The latest info I got comes from "the rise and fall rallying wildest cars". The english part leaves some to be desired, but the german part reads:

"The sport quattro was homologated at 1st of may 1984 with number B264. It had 150mm knocked off its wheelbase while now a conventional 5-cylinder engine benefitted from a new head with four valves per cylinder plus an increased compression ratio to raise the power by at least another 50bhp. And they did a limited run of special cars to enable a simultaneous evolution to give them a modest rear wing to improve downforce and kevlar body panels to lighten the whole package as well as widening the wheel arches. The weight balance was addressed by moving the oil cooler to the boot. This car was generally known under the name Sport quattro, although officially it was named the Sport Quattro S1."

This source gives me homologation numbers and dates, so I also suspect that they have gotten the names under which the cars were homologated. And till I see homologation papers stating otherwise, I'll believe this.

Now this is also my last comment on this insignificant, totally off the subject, stupid (although fun :D ) debate. I rest my case, believe what you will.

[Helstar]

Blimey chap, I don't give even 1 cent in return for your 2 cent. Prove your so-called "fact" by serious references instead of trying to read your knowledge out of old videos or gossip. And if you can't – on yer bike!
First of all, mentally you are just an arrogant child even if you are phisically 80 years old.

Second, I was there ah :p

Third, just rush in the first page and see what other people have reported. Serious references.

Last but not least, whatever I ride/drive is still better than your http://www.dprservice.com/catalog/images/prodotti/foppap_GirelloPilotinoPlusCarioca.gif

[rx-guru]

@ Nenukknak:
I confess that I started our squabble with a nit-picking post, I'm sorry! But it was you who brought arrogance into the game. See only the first sentence of your first reply...

I do not know when and by who this 'E2' thing in connection with Audi has started. Not by German colleagues I presume. During the 1980s there was never talks about an 'E2' Sport quattro over here, only about the S1. I'm not aware about Audi Sport internal matters nor have I ever seen a homologation doc of the Sport quattro. I will not 100% rule out that 'E2' was an internal Audi Sport programme term (like Porsche 930 instead of Porsche 911 Turbo at Zuffenhausen), but would be very surprised if you could find that tag anywhere used in German speaking press releases, newspapers, mags, books or whatever, published already in the 1980s. In those days at Ingolstadt it was officially called the Audi Sport quattro S1 (and still is). And the ultimate version of the factory was the S1 'Pikes Peak' with officially 598bhp, but claimed by some prominent Rally press counterparts to have 620 to 650+bhp.

PS: Just found out that Audi has very recently changed its website and the link in my post (#18) does not open the same page (with pics/info on Audi quattro, Audi Sport quattro and Audi Sport quattro S1) any longer.

[Nenukknak]

@ Nenukknak:
I confess that I started our squabble with a nit-picking post, I'm sorry! But it was you who brought arrogance into the game. See only the first sentence of your first reply...


LOL, you're definitely right I brought arrogance into the game, but in my defence that was in reply to your -what I found- arrogant answer(s). But that's just a matter of opinion, I guess.

S1, E2 whatever but at least now you recognize that there might, just might be an E2 in the name.

I guess we'll just have to wait for homologation papers to appear, you're a journalist you can digg 'm up :p :D .

Back to topic!

[jonkka]

Pardons all around and happy faces... :)

[Nenukknak]

Pardons all around and happy faces... :)

Always my friend, always. That's why I like this forum, and let's keep it that way. Discussions can be hard, and views not shared, but respect is key.

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