TRD to IRL: Adopt Lola/Cosworth and build from there.

[Rex Monaco]

Before leaving (Lee White, TRD's group vice-president and general manager) to allow him to continue TRD's relentless effort in NASCAR, I asked his opinion about IndyCar's 2011 rules debate.

"Rod Campbell called me and they wanted me to come," White related. "We had a board meeting in California when they scheduled their first meeting, so I couldn't go. Then they decided they just wanted anybody wearing a Toyota shirt. So to me, at that point in time, hopefully without being too critical, this wasn't about really having a discussion. It was about demonstrating that they had interest from the manufacturers."

White says that if TRD tried to sell Toyota Motor Sales on entering NASCAR in today's economic climate it would be a difficult if not impossible sale to make. He says that means Indy car racing is completely off Toyota's map.

"To be honest, we have serious challenges budget-wise," White said. "The concept of going back to Indy, or to open-wheel racing, given those challenges and the fact that we haven't got ourselves to the level we want in NASCAR yet, I'd be a fool to even propose it to the company. So I wasn't going to go and sit and listen to yet another meeting because I do enough of that, and I wasn't about to send somebody else just to take notes. So we did not go.

"I asked (former Ford Racing boss) Dan Davis before he retired if he was going and he said, 'Heck, no!' And I stopped somebody from Chevrolet and asked if they were going and they said, 'No. Why would we do that?'."

White says he took the opportunity to suggest his own solution to Indy car racing's debate about its 2011 formula.

"I did give Rod my opinion. I told him to go get a 1994 Lola or Reynard and put a Cosworth engine in it and go racing. Then you would have something that sounds great, runs great, looks great and puts on a great show, and everybody who loved them will jump at the chance to come and watch because there's still a lot of people out there who remember how great those cars were. Use that as a kind of retro starting point and build it from there. But I don't think they listened."

http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2008/the_way_it_is_no159.html

[nanders]

Many of you know, I SIM race. Our league evaluated many North American Open Wheel versions that included current IndyCar specs, Champcar specs and a 94/95 spec. The version that emulated current specifications was gutless with little throttle response, road races poorly because of the lack of throttle and over all totally rejected by the league. We finally settled on the 1994 / 1995 IndyCar http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail...0CART%20Season because it offered excellent drive-ability / throttle response. I am now racing in 4 leagues that have all embraced this 94/95 version, some of which have changed from the "milk toast" current IndyCar. No wonder Danica can drive that car.

My point is, how much simpler could it be to provide the fans with exactly what they want and contain cost?

'"But I don't think they listened."' This typifies one of the main problems with IndyCar ... all they can do is hear their own wheels turning. They continue to make the mistakes that alienate the fans and soon IndyCar could be right there with CANAM and GTP ..... extinct!

As much as I don't like Lee White, it's hard not to understand the viability of his suggestion.

[Andrewmcm]

Sounds like a plan to me.

[ShiftingGears]

Finally someone with influence has a smart idea!

Sometimes you have to take one step back to go two steps forward.

[Easy Drifter]

Good grief! Another useless thread going over the same old territory for the umpteenth time. TG is in control. Others failed. Accept it even if you hate it. You are not going to recreate what is history.
I dislike TG and what he has created (not done, created) but that does not matter.
It is what we have!!!! For the love of (insert favourite religion here) accept it.
End of story!
Accept it or go elsewhere.
Quit your bloody whining PLEASE.


Another useless rant that will fall on obssesed miniscule minds.
Mods: Please note I did not single out any one. I am as guilty as most.

[SarahFan]

Good grief! Another useless thread going over the same old territory for the umpteenth time. TG is in control. Others failed. Accept it even if you hate it. You are not going to recreate what is history.
I dislike TG and what he has created (not done, created) but that does not matter.
It is what we have!!!! For the love of (insert favourite religion here) accept it.
End of story!
Accept it or go elsewhere.
Quit your bloody whining PLEASE.


Another useless rant that will fall on obssesed miniscule minds.
Mods: Please note I did not single out any one. I am as guilty as most.

why do feel the need to tell others what is worthy (of) discussion...?

the answer is simple; don't participate in the threads you find uninteresting

[nanders]

Good grief! Another useless thread going over the same old territory for the umpteenth time. TG is in control. Others failed. Accept it even if you hate it. You are not going to recreate what is history.
I dislike TG and what he has created (not done, created) but that does not matter.
It is what we have!!!! For the love of (insert favourite religion here) accept it.
End of story!
Accept it or go elsewhere.
Quit your bloody whining PLEASE.


Another useless rant that will fall on obssesed miniscule minds.
Mods: Please note I did not single out any one. I am as guilty as most.

Easy, Oh my! How'd you get that Easy alias?

So are you saying because our opinions differ I should go away? Even if I have been reading and posting here since 2001. And now you showed up in 2007 and bring your opinion in here and that mine no longer count? The only one I see whining here is you because peoples opinions here aren't what you want to hear? Isn't this where people bring forth ideas to be debated over? Are you afraid of different ideas? Is someone throwing stones into your calm water and breaking up the surface?

I'm pretty sure there are ideas out there better then what Tony George and his employees have put forth. Rather then trying to maniacally control the forum why don't you go to your "relax place," pet your dog or tell your children you love them then come back here and read some different points of view.

Release your mean spirited controlling tone and join in the fun of the forum debate. Rather then attacking people by saying they have "obsessed minuscule minds," which if you weren't here for the "Waldo" days, you should know that personal attacks just like that, will get you thrown out of here. Just because you didn't single anyone out, you still don't have permission to do attacks on the posters in general.

[indycool]

Pretty easy for Lee to say after Honda kicked Toyota's caboose.....and Dan Davis to say when his company is losing billions and the series they supported went out of business. No surprise there.

[gshevlin]

On one level, Lee White's suggestion is hilarious, since Toyota was one of the reasons that the CART series declined, after Toyota bailed on it by signing up as a primary supplier to the IRL and then offering CART second-string variants of the IRL motor. Who the Hell is he to start waxing nostalgic? He helped the demise of the series. What does he want, a pat on the back or a medal? Spare me a second while I nip round the corner and burst out laughing...
On another level, his suggestion is right on the money, since the 1994-1997 period was the most exciting period, with 2 chassis (Lola and Reynard) mostly duking it out, and 3 main engine suppliers competing in an RPM and horsepower battle.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Good grief! Another useless thread going over the same old territory for the umpteenth time. TG is in control. Others failed. Accept it even if you hate it. You are not going to recreate what is history.
I dislike TG and what he has created (not done, created) but that does not matter.
It is what we have!!!! For the love of (insert favourite religion here) accept it.
End of story!
Accept it or go elsewhere.
Quit your bloody whining PLEASE.


Another useless rant that will fall on obssesed miniscule minds.
Mods: Please note I did not single out any one. I am as guilty as most.

I'm afraid you accidentally posted this reply in the wrong thread as its content has no relation whatsoever to the topic of the ongoing discussion here. No one was questioning the fact that TG is in control. If you think that discussing what an IndyCar should be like classifies as whining, then I am simply sorry for you. I come from an F1 background where everyone has the liberty to share their ideas regarding the formula, the schedule, the rules etc. From time to time, fans, drivers, team principals, Max Mosley, Bernie Ecclestone, the media and others come up with suggestions and sometimes the others agree with them or ridicule them completely. But usually people don't say it's Bernie & Max in control, get over it and shut up. For this obssessed miniscule mind, who watched every IndyCar race this year, it's difficult to understand your thinking. (Sorry mods, this was OT but I feel I needed to reflect to this post because I find it difficult to understand the anger and frustration in it.)

[beachbum]

Nostalgia racing? He's kidding of course?

While Lee White should have some credibility, it is easy for someone like him with no connection to the current series to make any silly statement they want. It just stirs up old tired arguments and hard feelings among a few fans.

Somehow, all of the safety changes made since 1994 are forgotten. Updating 14-15 year old chassis to current standards would be expensive, if not impossible. He should just roll out the old Toyota IMSA cars each year and stick to supporting other vintage racing.

Hey, but its the off season and anything goes. There are good reasons it is called the silly season.

[Easy Drifter]

Sorry folks. My emotions got the best of me.
And yes I have only been on the forum for a relatively short time but I have been around motorsport since 1952. I was a professional driver for several years and worked on race cars for years including Indy cars, Can Am and F1.
I have also been, in the distant past, a senior race official at F1 races as well as Can Am. :o

[Rex Monaco]

I posted this because Lee White seemed to have an insight that seems to be missing amongst many people right now.

Despite our disagreements on how we got here, most everyone is in agreement that the series needs to be rebuilt. It appears that even the IRL understands that increased competition is the key for it's survival, let alone it's growth.

I think what Lee was stating was, you don't have to spend precious R&D money developing a brand new chassis and brand new engine in the midst of a world-wide economic crisis where money is very scarce.

You can take a step back (retro), use equipment that is already in existance (starting point) and evolve (build it) the equipment rules from there.

He's not saying turn the IRL into a nostalgia racing series. He's saying these car's aren't that far removed from the current IRL equipment and that it would be much cheaper to use them as the starting point than to embark on an expensive complete redesign of the chassis and the engine.

At least that's how I read it, and that's why I posted it.

[nanders]

Nostalgia racing? He's kidding of course?

While Lee White should have some credibility, it is easy for someone like him with no connection to the current series to make any silly statement they want. It just stirs up old tired arguments and hard feelings among a few fans.

Somehow, all of the safety changes made since 1994 are forgotten. Updating 14-15 year old chassis to current standards would be expensive, if not impossible. He should just roll out the old Toyota IMSA cars each year and stick to supporting other vintage racing.

Hey, but its the off season and anything goes. There are good reasons it is called the silly season.

I'm sure he'd be all for a safety updated 94 formula. I read that into it when I read his quote. When you look back at that season, the drivers that were in it and the cars and the over-all series, it's hard to not want to recapture a bits of that. If you have no traction control and no aerodynamics bit hanging off them, that car (Lola, Penske or Reynard) would be a fantastic new/old alternative that could have a greater potential for reuniting the fan base.

[nanders]

He's not saying turn the IRL into a nostalgia racing series. He's saying these car's aren't that far removed from the current IRL equipment and that it would be much cheaper to use them as the starting point than to embark on an expensive complete redesign of the chassis and the engine.



"Much cheaper" maybe, because they would have to have safety updates. But I wouldn't doubt if Lola still posses the molds and you'd have to have spares. And you could use the Champcar Cosworth Engine and ECU spec ... ?go back to the mechanical pop-offs and turbo boost lag? It would still be a spec series but it would be reminiscent of the greatest era. Would it be do-able? Would you want Danica driving that beast?

In our simulations the 94 car is a unruly extreme machine.You can't mat the throttle until you're at 130 MPH when the down force kicks in (Super Speedway trim). Could the current group of drivers wrap their minds around that?

[indycool]

Rex, why do you think new specs have already been delayed until 2011? Because of the economic crisis. Duh.

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, why do you think new specs have already been delayed until 2011? Because of the economic crisis. Duh.

That's certainly one way to throw a contrarian spin on it.

But the more likely reason is that by starting in mid-2008 they had no reasonable expectation that they'd be able to settle the rules, get manufacturers committed and have cars tested and ready to go by 2010.

My scenario also takes into account the fact that they started this endeavor long before the situation was considered an economic crisis and they have always been using 2011 as the target date.

[Rex Monaco]

...and they have always been using 2011 as the target date.

Wait, this is the part where I was supposed to say DUH!

[garyshell]

But the more likely reason is that by starting in mid-2008 they had no reasonable expectation that they'd be able to settle the rules, get manufacturers committed and have cars tested and ready to go by 2010.

I always felt that the 2010 date was overly optimistic. I think we discussed this back when the announcement was intially made. And at that time there were several folks who felt the same way.

Gary

[indycool]

Might well have been overly optimistic to start with, but they changed it from 2010 to 2011. Part of the reason was probably the blendification. The teams coming over from CC would've had to get new equipment twice in three years. Economically, that would've been a hardship there was no necessity to create.

[indycool]

Can't find a link on it, but apparently Forsythe bought the Cosworth engines out of the bankruptcy court. What he's going to do with 'em, who knows?....maybe toss 'em back into the Cosworth inventory to deal with some other series somewhere in the world......in any case, with Forsythe doing it for whatever reason, they aren't going to wind up in the ICS.

[garyshell]

Can't find a link on it, but apparently Forsythe bought the Cosworth engines out of the bankruptcy court. What he's going to do with 'em, who knows?....maybe toss 'em back into the Cosworth inventory to deal with some other series somewhere in the world......in any case, with Forsythe doing it for whatever reason, they aren't going to wind up in the ICS.


Looks like it was more of a shot across the bow at Mr. Johnston and his "green" prix. I saw an article that the sale date was moved and Mr. Johnston didn't get notice, he showed up at the appointed time and the deal had already been done. The article I saw, though did not know who the buyer was.

Gary

[indycool]

I saw that, too, at Mark C.'s site, Gary. I heard the information is inaccurate and he, indeed, DID show up and the process and procedures just went on around him.

[garyshell]

I saw that, too, at Mark C.'s site, Gary. I heard the information is inaccurate and he, indeed, DID show up and the process and procedures just went on around him.


That is even more bizzare. He just let them slip through his fingers???? So one has to wonder, what will the "green" prix be using for engines. "Hello, Toyota. Can I order a couple dozen Prius engines and battery sets? What? No, I don't need the cars... just the engines and batteries."

Gary

[indycool]

Picked up a little more which I believe to be true. Guess the $250,000 bid made to the trustee in advance by Johnston was accurate and the next incremental bid to be made was $275,000. Forsythe apparently bid $600k and that was it.

[garyshell]

Picked up a little more which I believe to be true. Guess the $250,000 bid made to the trustee in advance by Johnston was accurate and the next incremental bid to be made was $275,000. Forsythe apparently bid $600k and that was it.

Now that is even more strange. Why would he jump the bid immediately to $600K? Not saying your source is incorrect, but this story gets curiouser and curiouser.

Gary

[indycool]

Not intending to start a fire with this.....it's bizarre to me, too.

[jimispeed]

Why didn't Indycar at least try to do this?

http://bp0.blogger.com/_NVIyqlcHzR4/SAVx8RJ8h_I/AAAAAAAACQ8/_iT6hvD3Atw/s1600-h/CCWS+PANOZ+DP01+-+IRL+DALLARA+-+600.jpg


Seemed like a great fit to me. But, they never even considered it!!

Waste of a great opportunity.

[garyshell]

Try to do what? I see no suggestions in that article only a comparison of the two cars.

Gary

[jimispeed]

Why didn't Indycar at least try to do this?

http://bp0.blogger.com/_NVIyqlcHzR4/SAVx8RJ8h_I/AAAAAAAACQ8/_iT6hvD3Atw/s1600-h/CCWS+PANOZ+DP01+-+IRL+DALLARA+-+600.jpg




Last sentence on the DP01 side. That's why I've always wanted that particular car to be at least given the opportunity. Certainly could have been done, after the correct rigorous testing was finished.........

[indycool]

An oval kit was never made for the DP-01. It was never tested on an oval. And there wasn't enough of them around since the original order was never met.

[beachbum]

Somehow all of the fans of the DP-01 conveniently forget all of the build quality issues CCWS teams were willing to talk about publicly. Fuel system problems, parts that didn't fit, etc. There was a lot of grumbling. A good production race car must have parts that fit and work (like the Dallara). IMHO, the Panoz was a car created to look like every other high nose open wheel Formula car and built as cheaply as possible. That doesn't make it a good race car. A race car is a tool and the DP-01 wasn't a very good tool.

[garyshell]

More info on Cosworth. Could this be where the engines are going. (Just kidding, I am sure they are talking about a NEW engine alltogether.)


president Max Mosley (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/in_depth/9/Max_Mosley.html) has written to Formula One teams to further explain his vision for bringing down costs in Formula One (http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/home/), after revealing the FIA is in exclusive talks with Cosworth regarding a supply of engines from 2010.

On the same day that Honda (http://www.crash.net/gpa/team_team~teamsroot_id~7872.htm) announced it was withdrawing from the sport and putting its team up for sale, Mosley revealed that the proposed deal could see team's spending less than £6 million per year for an engine and transmission system.

That price would be dependent on four teams signing up for a supply of engines, with the costs set to be reduced if more teams elected to go down that route.

"We have completed the tendering process and are now in exclusive negotiations with Cosworth together with Xtrac and Ricardo Transmissions (XR) to supply a complete Formula One power train starting in 2010," Mosley wrote. "The engine will be a current Formula One engine while the transmission will be state-of-the-art Formula One and a joint effort by two companies which already supply transmissions to most of the grid...


more here:

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/172394-0/mosley_fia_in_exclusive_cosworth_talks.html

Gary

[nanders]

"The engine will be a current Formula One engine"

Doesn't Cosworth still have a current spec F1 engine from the Jaguar days?

[indycool]

I believe Cosworth DOES have an engine that meets current specs. How the CC engines would convert to whatever specs F1 proposes is obviously TBA.

But it may have something to do with the purchase of the CC engines from bankruptcy. Learned a little more. Some company DID overbid Johnston by the required $25,000 to $275,000 at the auction. Then Aquarium Holdings LLC (to be confused with, or NOT to be confused with, Aquarium Assets LLC which owns Long Beach, whatever legal gamesmanship is going on) bid $600,000. Johnston was allowed to bid then and declined.

KK started out wanting to be in F1 anyway. Whoever Aquarium Holdings LLC is might be his way.

[fan-veteran]

Take Penske from 1994, put the genuine Mercedes engine in it (1000 bhp), do little aerodynamics enhacement (cosmetic of course because we don't like to spoil the look :) ), do some safety enhacement .. and we have got it :cool:

Of course there should be more rational ways, but in a joke there is some true ... :)

[Jag_Warrior]

"The engine will be a current Formula One engine"

Doesn't Cosworth still have a current spec F1 engine from the Jaguar days?

Sorta, kinda. Cosworth developed a 2.4 liter V8 which Williams ran in 2006. With some money and development behind it, it might have become a great engine. But after Williams switched to Toyota power the next season, Cosworth was out of F1 and the engine (AFAIK) saw no further development.

[Jag_Warrior]

I believe Cosworth DOES have an engine that meets current specs. How the CC engines would convert to whatever specs F1 proposes is obviously TBA.

But it may have something to do with the purchase of the CC engines from bankruptcy. Learned a little more. Some company DID overbid Johnston by the required $25,000 to $275,000 at the auction. Then Aquarium Holdings LLC (to be confused with, or NOT to be confused with, Aquarium Assets LLC which owns Long Beach, whatever legal gamesmanship is going on) bid $600,000. Johnston was allowed to bid then and declined.

KK started out wanting to be in F1 anyway. Whoever Aquarium Holdings LLC is might be his way.

If Kalkhoven (and Forsythe) believes that a supply of 6 year old, warmed over 2.65 liter turbo V8's will get him into F1, I have a bridge in New York I'd like to offer him for a "reasonable" price. :D

I have no idea what will happen to the 90+ XFE's that were purchased at auction. But they have nothing to do with Mosley's proposal to have Cosworth be the supplier of customer engines for F1. For one, per Mosley, the customer F1 engine will be the current F1 engine spec. Secondly, though manufacturers cannot produce engines that will be superior to the customer engine in terms of output, one of the main things that drove Williams from Cosworth to Toyota was the money and support that Toyota offered that Cosworth could not. And the Cosworth Racing of 2008 is MUCH weaker than the Cosworth Racing of 2006. Teams will probably evaluate their options based on net cost, since the performance is going to theoretically be the same.

IMO, those 2.65 turbo engines might either wind up (still) being leased to Johnston (he would have needed Cossie rebuild support anyway) or go to some other weekend warrior series.

[Jag_Warrior]

That's certainly one way to throw a contrarian spin on it.

But the more likely reason is that by starting in mid-2008 they had no reasonable expectation that they'd be able to settle the rules, get manufacturers committed and have cars tested and ready to go by 2010.

My scenario also takes into account the fact that they started this endeavor long before the situation was considered an economic crisis and they have always been using 2011 as the target date.

I'm with you here. The 2011 date was being batted around LONG before the credit and equity markets crashed just a few months ago. If anything, the 2011 target implementation date may soon prove to be optimistic.

Auto companies are now cancelling R&D projects for passenger vehicles left & right. It will be interesting to see how many are able to get the budgets for new racing programs... especially when existing racing programs seem to be dying by the day.

[ShiftingGears]

"The engine will be a current Formula One engine"

Doesn't Cosworth still have a current spec F1 engine from the Jaguar days?

They have one from 2006 from the Williams days.

[nigelred5]

I've repeatedly read that the Cosworth spec engine proposal was for a V10, though I have to think that was a typo in an original press release that has been re-quoted. Cosworth does have both. Wasn't it the '06 V8 that was turning 20K?

[Jag_Warrior]

Cossie F1 V8 @ 20K RPM's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdm51QwZEw

[call_me_andrew]

Nostalgia racing? He's kidding of course?

Some people cling to old Lolas like NASCAR clings to carburetors.