OFFICIAL: Santander to switch to Ferrari for 2010

[Giuseppe F1]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/081126084333.shtml

Santander confirms Ferrari switch
Sponsor dreams of Alonso reunion
26/11/08 08:43

Santander to move on to the Ferrari team

Spanish sponsor Banco Santander will move its backing from McLaren to Ferrari after the 2009 Formula One season, the bank's boss Emilio Botin has confirmed.

"Santander will be with Ferrari in 2010, yes," he is quoted as saying by the Spanish newspaper Diario AS.

Botin also made clear his desire to reunite the Santander logo with the car driven by Fernando Alonso, after the former double world champion left McLaren at the end of last year.


"Alonso is the best driver in the world and we would like to work with him, but that's not something that depends only on us," he insisted.

Ferrari's current race drivers Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen are both contracted to the Italian team for 2009 and 2010.

Source: GMM
© CAPSIS Internationa

[leopard]

A gossip Santander trying to arrange the scene is the most possible to happen.

It may also depend on achievement of two current Ferrari drivers in their running contracted years. If they suck, they may be free to decide earlier termination. :D

[pino]

Next move...Alonso to Ferrari ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Next move...Alonso to Ferrari ;)
Just seems a matter of time now :)

[Somebody]

It may also depend on achievement of two current Ferrari drivers in their running contracted years. If they suck, they may be free to decide earlier termination. :D

Given that Kimi had a crap year this year, yet still hit his auto-renewal target says that it isn't a high bar for someone in a Ferrari.

[Mark]

Just seems a matter of time now :)

It does indeed. They would never disclose it but I would imagine their contract with Ferrari requires Alonso to drive for the team.

I wouldn't be surprised if Santander has basically offered to pay Alonso's wages if he joins the team, but not for any other driver.

[TMorel]

I'd love to see Alonsos face when Ferrari tell him yes, part of the Santander deal was he drives for them so welcome aboard, oh and by the way, we've taken Eddie Irvines advice too and hired Hamilton to be you team mate...

[Donney]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/081126084333.shtml

Santander confirms Ferrari switch
Sponsor dreams of Alonso reunion
26/11/08 08:43

Santander to move on to the Ferrari team

Spanish sponsor Banco Santander will move its backing from McLaren to Ferrari after the 2009 Formula One season, the bank's boss Emilio Botin has confirmed.

"Santander will be with Ferrari in 2010, yes," he is quoted as saying by the Spanish newspaper Diario AS.

Botin also made clear his desire to reunite the Santander logo with the car driven by Fernando Alonso, after the former double world champion left McLaren at the end of last year.


"Alonso is the best driver in the world and we would like to work with him, but that's not something that depends only on us," he insisted.

Ferrari's current race drivers Felipe Massa and Kimi Raikkonen are both contracted to the Italian team for 2009 and 2010.

Source: GMM
© CAPSIS Internationa

If it comes from As it's most likely crap.

[yodasarmpit]

I have to agree with Donney, the idea of a them announcing that they will sponsor a Ferrari whilst still being associated with McLaren for another year is a bit of a Ratner moment.

[driveace]

Hey ! Hold on a moment,why dont you ask your cutomers here in the UK if they agree that OUR bank(Abbey,Bradford and Bingley etc) will be OK if they do that.They could go T**s up before then though.As which banks can we trust ?
What if Ferrari preferred Vettel for 2010 and NOT Alonso ?

[Ranger]

Hey ! Hold on a moment,why dont you ask your cutomers here in the UK if they agree that OUR bank(Abbey,Bradford and Bingley etc) will be OK if they do that.They could go T**s up before then though.As which banks can we trust ?
What if Ferrari preferred Vettel for 2010 and NOT Alonso ?

Ferrari wouldn't get Vettel that soon, Red Bull basically own him!

Abbey's parent company is Spanish so that's where the buck stops.

It has to be said that Spanish firms (and media) are phenomenally influential within the realms of F1 and MotoGP. It's especially incredible in F1 since most if not all of that support is directed towards one person's success. It certainly makes it feel like Fernando will be a Ferrari driver in the near future.

[ShiftingGears]

Would love to see Alonso in a Ferrari.

[leopard]

Whether or not Alonso will drive Ferrari, the santander deal is understood that they are building strong image they are there in the sport only to support big teams like McLaren and Ferrari.

They seem to undertake a role more dominant than Etihad and Mubadala. Since vodafone left them for McLaren, looked like Marlboro works lonely, the presence of Santander is supposed to be freshblood to strengthen the team.

[I am evil Homer]

It does indeed. They would never disclose it but I would imagine their contract with Ferrari requires Alonso to drive for the team.

I wouldn't be surprised if Santander has basically offered to pay Alonso's wages if he joins the team, but not for any other driver.

I'd love to see them get that past the shareholders given the amounts of money it would involve. Might need some creative accounting!! I'll believe when I see it TBH as Abbey in the UK will not want to lose sponsoring Lewis given the masses of TV ads they've been doing.

[Mark]

I'd love to see them get that past the shareholders given the amounts of money it would involve. Might need some creative accounting!! I'll believe when I see it TBH as Abbey in the UK will not want to lose sponsoring Lewis given the masses of TV ads they've been doing.

True, I noticed they've changed the wording of the 'Hamilton ad' recently. To mention that B&B is now part of the group, and that they have a sensible lending policy etc, who'd have thought about a bank putting that in an advert even just a year ago?!

Sure; Hamilton gets them plenty exposure now, but they have him and McLaren for 2009 when he's the reigning champion, after that I think their campaign with him will have run its course and they can switch to a 'home' driver for 2010.

[Garry Walker]

If alonso ever comes to Ferrari, I will at once stop supporting this team.

If alonso ever comes to Ferrari, I will at once stop supporting this team.

Arrivederci!

You aren't a real Tifosi anyway.

[ioan]

If alonso ever comes to Ferrari, I will at once stop supporting this team.

Why?
Why do you support them now? After all you clearly don't like Massa either.

I don't understand you. Like I don't understand those who started supporting Ferrari only last season because of Raikkonen.
Ferrari is not about something or someone, it's about the philosophy behind their success.

[gloomyDAY]

If alonso ever comes to Ferrari, I will at once stop supporting this team.I guess the word winner isn't part of your vocabulary.

Tazio would love to see this sh!t happen.

[Tallgeese]

Can't wait to see him at Ferrari, but I can stand two more years at Renault. I guess that if he'll only change his mind if Ferrari loses its competitive edge. Still the red Santander & Ferrari logos should blend beautifully!

[Tazio]

I guess the word winner isn't part of your vocabulary.

Tazio would love to see this sh!t happen.When Fred joins Ferrari I'll be pissing down both legs :)

[truefan72]

Alonso to Ferrari means getting rid of both Massa and Kimi. andprobably installing luca badoer as the #2 driver.
It would be the return of the schunacher style team concept.
Any other scenario would turn out to be a dicey situation for Alonso.

If massa were there andf winnig races, I can see alonso talking about favoritism and not being supported by the team, I can see him eventually stop talking to the team manager, I can then see him threaten the team with disclosing sensitive material unless he get's his way, I can see Ferrari dragged into an off track matter about rules & Regs with Alonso supplying the key information, I could see him fighting it out with massa on the track and potentially ruining both their WDC chances.

So Alls I say is, if Alonso joins Ferrari, then it will be with a loser teammate and all the attention focused on him. If not , then expect fireworks in that season

[Garry Walker]

Arrivederci!

You aren't a real Tifosi anyway.
What`s a real tifosi? Do amuse me and tell. Someone who bashes current Ferrari drivers with immense hatred and stupidity? Congrats, you qualify.


Why?
Why do you support them now? After all you clearly don't like Massa either.

I don't understand you. Like I don't understand those who started supporting Ferrari only last season because of Raikkonen.
Ferrari is not about something or someone, it's about the philosophy behind their success.
Actually, Massa is my fav driver still, but I don`t like him anywhere near as much as I supported Schumacher, so that enables me to be less biased about him and destroy the lunacy you sometimes post about him.


I guess the word winner isn't part of your vocabulary.
.
More along the lines of paranoid, crybaby, blackmailer, all around general asshole.
To add to that, Alonso has the most stupid fans I have ever seen in any sport.

Kimi and Massa are very fast, very good allaround drivers and both are mature enough to drive for the team when needed, both have shown it.

[gloomyDAY]

More along the lines of paranoid, crybaby, blackmailer, all around general asshole. To add to that, Alonso has the most stupid fans I have ever seen in any sport.LOL!

I can't argue with that.

[Tazio]

Alonso to Ferrari means getting rid of both Massa and Kimi. andprobably installing luca badoer as the #2 driver.
It would be the return of the schunacher style team concept.
Any other scenario would turn out to be a dicey situation for Alonso.

If massa were there andf winnig races, I can see alonso talking about favoritism and not being supported by the team, I can see him eventually stop talking to the team manager, I can then see him threaten the team with disclosing sensitive material unless he get's his way, I can see Ferrari dragged into an off track matter about rules & Regs with Alonso supplying the key information, I could see him fighting it out with massa on the track and potentially ruining both their WDC chances.

So Alls I say is, if Alonso joins Ferrari, then it will be with a loser teammate and all the attention focused on him. If not , then expect fireworks in that seasonInteresting take!
However, IMHO Fred will arrive at Ferrari and proceed to break out a serious can of Whip-@$$,
regardless of who is in the other car!

[leopard]

Alonso never fight out against Truli, Fisi, NPJr at the same team, otherwise he contributed to let Fisi took the lead and win some races. He isn't the guy for Massa to worry about :)

[markabilly]

Hey ! Hold on a moment,why dont you ask your cutomers here in the UK if they agree that OUR bank(Abbey,Bradford and Bingley etc) will be OK if they do that.They could go T**s up before then though.As which banks can we trust ?
?


none---just might be that after the crunch catches up to them, none of these banks will be providing much of anything to anyone...

[markabilly]

Interesting take!
However, IMHO Fred will arrive at Ferrari and proceed to break out a serious can of Whip-@$$,
regardless of who is in the other car!


Unless the other driver is the adopted son of luca......if so, freddie better be checking his tire pressures and be on the look out for that strange white powder in the tank....

[PolePosition_1]

Why?
Why do you support them now? After all you clearly don't like Massa either.

I don't understand you. Like I don't understand those who started supporting Ferrari only last season because of Raikkonen.
Ferrari is not about something or someone, it's about the philosophy behind their success.

Though you can't deny that their philosophy since Kimi joining (i.e. Schumacher leaving) has changed greatly.

Whilst I've always respected Ferrari for their success, only since Kimi joining, the appointment of SD have I respected and actually like their philosophy with regards to racing.

As an Alonso fan, before 2007 I would have dreaded the idea of him joining them, but nowadays, I like the idea.

[Mark]

Do you mean their willingness to support both drivers equally? You could argue that if they had a number 1 driver and a number 2 driver they would certainly have won the WDC this year.

Alonso to Ferrari means getting rid of both Massa and Kimi. andprobably installing luca badoer as the #2 driver.
It would be the return of the schunacher style team concept.
Any other scenario would turn out to be a dicey situation for Alonso.

If massa were there andf winnig races, I can see alonso talking about favoritism and not being supported by the team, I can see him eventually stop talking to the team manager, I can then see him threaten the team with disclosing sensitive material unless he get's his way, I can see Ferrari dragged into an off track matter about rules & Regs with Alonso supplying the key information, I could see him fighting it out with massa on the track and potentially ruining both their WDC chances.

So Alls I say is, if Alonso joins Ferrari, then it will be with a loser teammate and all the attention focused on him. If not , then expect fireworks in that season

That's assuming that Ferrari would manage their drivers in such a piss-poor way that Ron "Integrity" Dennis managed.

Which is pretty doubtful, because nobody fails like that without trying to fail.

Whilst I've always respected Ferrari for their success, only since Kimi joining, the appointment of SD have I respected and actually like their philosophy with regards to racing.

Yes, but they don't give out rewards for having likeable & respectable philosophies, so who cares?

After all, Mclaren won this years WDC but none of their fans condemn them for actually being liars & cheats.

[markabilly]

Do you mean their willingness to support both drivers equally? You could argue that if they had a number 1 driver and a number 2 driver they would certainly have won the WDC this year.


There you go second guessing, Scuderia pissapoor team strategy, just cause of that one race where Kimi clearly no longer had a chance of the WDC, and yet finished in front of Massa....

No, this year they blew it in the pits with a certain grossly incompetent fuel stop mechanism, an entirely self imposed suicide, that can not be blamed on discretionary judgment calls in the heat of battle

And clearly if they were going to have a number one at the start of the year, that number one would have been "sleepie kimie", and as we found out---if turning in the fastest lap at the very end of a race, stuck in third, fourth or lower place, determines the WDC, then Kimi would have been the wdc long before singapore...

So they were actually better off to not have had a number one for the entire year, otherwise Massa might not have come so very close to it, but when it became crystal clear who their best hope was.....

[PolePosition_1]

Do you mean their willingness to support both drivers equally? You could argue that if they had a number 1 driver and a number 2 driver they would certainly have won the WDC this year.

I agree, same with McLaren last year, they would have won the drivers if they had a number 1 & 2 last year. But they didn't. And I'm glad they didn't win it.

F1, whilst a business, is also a sport, and with regards to their driver treatment, they continued with a sporting philosphy, at the cost of a WDC. Me personally, I'd rather lose a championship sportingly than lose it through non sporting approach.

That said, I acknowledge that "unsporting" approach is subjective.

[PolePosition_1]

Yes, but they don't give out rewards for having likeable & respectable philosophies, so who cares?

After all, Mclaren won this years WDC but none of their fans condemn them for actually being liars & cheats.

Thats fair enough, same as my previous post, it all depends on where your morals lie. If I was in charge, I'd rather win sportingly than win by unsporting approach. I don't really go with the win at all costs approach.

[ioan]

Though you can't deny that their philosophy since Kimi joining (i.e. Schumacher leaving) has changed greatly.

Whilst I've always respected Ferrari for their success, only since Kimi joining, the appointment of SD have I respected and actually like their philosophy with regards to racing.

As an Alonso fan, before 2007 I would have dreaded the idea of him joining them, but nowadays, I like the idea.

I was talking about a history of 50+ years of building and racing some of the finest cars in the world, yet you come and tell me about the last 2 years with Kimi.
Go pick up some books and read a bit about what Ferrari achieved during it's WHOLE existence, than we can talk.

[anthonyvop]

I see the Santander move as purely business.

Group Santander is a Spanish Company with major holding all around the world but still a Spanish Business.
Also Santander is expanding heavily into Latin America.

Don't think for a minute that the Marketing and P.R. people at Group Santander are not aware that McLaren is not looked upon favorably(To put it mildly) in Spain or Latin America.

[PolePosition_1]

I was talking about a history of 50+ years of building and racing some of the finest cars in the world, yet you come and tell me about the last 2 years with Kimi.
Go pick up some books and read a bit about what Ferrari achieved during it's WHOLE existence, than we can talk.


You always seem to be on the defensive Ioan, even when its not needed.

As I said, I've always respected them for what they have achieved, to me, their achievement spans since 60 years in F1.

But their way of racing I haven't always approved of. And commenting on since I been watching F1, 2007 was the first year they've gone for equal treatment in a championship winning car, as 1994-1995 they weren't in a position to fight for the title.

I always bit sceptical about commenting on era's when which I didn't watch, simply because I don't believe reading a book makes me qualified to judge it, as a book or video is always going to let in biased judgements on subjective matters.

[ioan]

You always seem to be on the defensive Ioan, even when its not needed.

My bad, I'm working on it but it will need time to change. ;)



As I said, I've always respected them for what they have achieved, to me, their achievement spans since 60 years in F1.

But their way of racing I haven't always approved of. And commenting on since I been watching F1, 2007 was the first year they've gone for equal treatment in a championship winning car, as 1994-1995 they weren't in a position to fight for the title.

I always bit sceptical about commenting on era's when which I didn't watch, simply because I don't believe reading a book makes me qualified to judge it, as a book or video is always going to let in biased judgements on subjective matters.

Honestly, I believe that all they did was to adapt to the realities of the sport. As did the other teams, cause we can't say that McLaren, Williams, Renault and BMW (all race winning team in the last decade) didn't do it in the same time.
I believe that they gave equal treatment when the drivers were equal (see Alesi vs Berger, and the Ferrari's were race winning cars back than too (not every other race but still winners).

IMO it always boiled down to the drivers capabilities if they were about equal they got equal chances if not than the chances were proportional to the talent and rightly so.

[Tazio]

There you go second guessing, Scuderia pissapoor team strategy, just cause of that one race where Kimi clearly no longer had a chance of the WDC, and yet finished in front of Massa....

No, this year they blew it in the pits with a certain grossly incompetent fuel stop mechanism, an entirely self imposed suicide, that can not be blamed on discretionary judgment calls in the heat of battle

And clearly if they were going to have a number one at the start of the year, that number one would have been "sleepie kimie", and as we found out---if turning in the fastest lap at the very end of a race, stuck in third, fourth or lower place, determines the WDC, then Kimi would have been the wdc long before singapore...

So they were actually better off to not have had a number one for the entire year, otherwise Massa might not have come so very close to it, but when it became crystal clear who their best hope was.....Very well put my man. :up:
This is coming from a member that has stated several times, and in no uncertain terms,
that I will back any driver Ferrari Trots out there period.

[donKey jote]

LOL!
I can't argue with that.

I could... if the original post you quoted were still there :p

:dozey:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[truefan72]

Interesting take!
However, IMHO Fred will arrive at Ferrari and proceed to break out a serious can of Whip-@$$,
regardless of who is in the other car!

I will never doubt his capabilities or the fact that he would probably win a good number of races with Ferrari. ( as he did with McLaren and finished tied for 2nd with LH)

It is the backroom drama and teamate dynamics that comes into question. If he has matured and can see that having another strong driver alongside him only benefits the team as a whole, then good. But if he insists on going the MS route, then expect to see luca badoer driving the 2nd car during his time at Ferrari.

[Tazio]

I will never doubt his capabilities or the fact that he would probably win a good number of races with Ferrari. ( as he did with McLaren and finished tied for 2nd with LH)Very high probability.




It is the backroom drama and teamate dynamics that comes into question. If he has matured and can see that having another strong driver alongside him only benefits the team as a whole, then good That situation is a big fat one off! 2007 at McLaren, all things considered was simply a perfect storm! I think he learned a tough lesson there,
is more mature, and a much bigger man for it!


But if he insists on going the MS route.., Well if you mean by being so dominant in a great car that he helped to develope. He diminishes F1 competition so dramatically it resultsin a rule change in point allotment that is IMO absurdly inequitable. Then Yes I think Fred may pull that kind of a MS! Eespecially in the car developement arena
then expect to see luca badoer driving the 2nd car during his time at Ferrari...
Badoer, Klien, Trulli, Ant, Lewis, Montoya, Mansell, Sir Jackie. As long as they are sitting in a Ferrari F1 Contender I'm pulling for them.
Yea maybe after he has a falling out at the big "M", Lewis, and Fred could do a Reunion Tour courtesy of Ferrari!
It's all good as far as I'm concerned! :)

[leopard]

Badoer, Klien, Trulli, Ant, Lewis, Montoya, Mansell, Sir Jackie. As long as they are sitting in a Ferrari F1 Contender I'm pulling for them.


Who's Ant? I think Sato-san was better. ;)

[Tazio]

Who's Ant? I think Sato-san was better. ;) Feel free to ad him to the list :) While we're at I would like to add N. Lauda to it as well.
I believe he still has the fire to compete at this level :dozey:

[PolePosition_1]

My bad, I'm working on it but it will need time to change. ;)



Honestly, I believe that all they did was to adapt to the realities of the sport. As did the other teams, cause we can't say that McLaren, Williams, Renault and BMW (all race winning team in the last decade) didn't do it in the same time.
I believe that they gave equal treatment when the drivers were equal (see Alesi vs Berger, and the Ferrari's were race winning cars back than too (not every other race but still winners).

IMO it always boiled down to the drivers capabilities if they were about equal they got equal chances if not than the chances were proportional to the talent and rightly so.

See, I actually agree with everything that you say there, all of it is correct.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver. Someone posted a list of all of Schumachers team-mates recently, not one great (bar Piquet who was like DH in 99). Schumacher, albeit totally allowed and able to do it because of his huge talent, was able to dictate his team mate, and never really challenged himself in this respect. And whilst all teams have at some point or another used team orders, none to the extint we saw with Schumacher at Ferrari and Bennetton since I been watching F1.

To be fair, his and Ferrari approach worked amazingly well. They dominated the sport. And it was fully legal, and so they were fully entitled to do it.

But for me, with my views to sport, it was an unsporting approach.

[Knock-on]

See, I actually agree with everything that you say there, all of it is correct.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver. Someone posted a list of all of Schumachers team-mates recently, not one great (bar Piquet who was like DH in 99). Schumacher, albeit totally allowed and able to do it because of his huge talent, was able to dictate his team mate, and never really challenged himself in this respect. And whilst all teams have at some point or another used team orders, none to the extint we saw with Schumacher at Ferrari and Bennetton since I been watching F1.

To be fair, his and Ferrari approach worked amazingly well. They dominated the sport. And it was fully legal, and so they were fully entitled to do it.

But for me, with my views to sport, it was an unsporting approach.

Exactly. (although I would suggest that the last sentence could say "against the spirit of the sport" rather than unsporting)

MS may very well be the best racing driver of all time but for the reasons mentioned, and some controversial driving behaviour, will never be universally recognised as such which is a real shame.

[ioan]

MS may very well be the best racing driver of all time but for the reasons mentioned, and some controversial driving behaviour, will never be universally recognised as such which is a real shame.

Don't worry for him, he's fine! ;)

Seriously, none of the sportsmen that dominated sports, the way MS did with F1, will ever be universally recognized as such, they all have detractors.

[ioan]

See, I actually agree with everything that you say there, all of it is correct.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver. Someone posted a list of all of Schumachers team-mates recently, not one great (bar Piquet who was like DH in 99). Schumacher, albeit totally allowed and able to do it because of his huge talent, was able to dictate his team mate, and never really challenged himself in this respect. And whilst all teams have at some point or another used team orders, none to the extint we saw with Schumacher at Ferrari and Bennetton since I been watching F1.

To be fair, his and Ferrari approach worked amazingly well. They dominated the sport. And it was fully legal, and so they were fully entitled to do it.

But for me, with my views to sport, it was an unsporting approach.

Fair comment! :up:

[Mark]

It is indeed fair comment that it is unsporting. But personally I think it's just using the way the sport is structured to your own (and the teams) best advantage. If you have one driver who is faster than the other it makes sense to concentrate on them and have the other in a backup role.

Has to be said again that if Ferrari had concentrated on Massa from day one in 2008, he would be champion, no doubt.

[Knock-on]

It is indeed fair comment that it is unsporting. But personally I think it's just using the way the sport is structured to your own (and the teams) best advantage. If you have one driver who is faster than the other it makes sense to concentrate on them and have the other in a backup role.

Has to be said again that if Ferrari had concentrated on Massa from day one in 2008, he would be champion, no doubt.

Interesting point you raise there Mark.

On paper, they should have put full support behind Kimi as the #1 driver and reigning WDC.

As such, Massa would have been cast in position as a Lapdog to the faster driver. A driver who was there on credit and had proven himself at the highest level. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

If they had adopted this strategy, then where would Massa have been at the end of the year.

If they had of adopted their current strategy with Rubins and MS, what would the outcome have been..... we will never know.

Point I make is that no other teams purposely get a "second rate" driver to support its top driver.

Really?

Heikki Kovalianen seems to fit that description perfectly.

Fisichella likewise at Renault with Alonso.

Oh, and Brabham were not above putting a make-weight or cheque-book driver in their second car when Nelson Piquet Sr was in the Number 1 role. Step forward Riccardo Zunio, Hector Rebaque, Teo Fabi, Corrado Fabi and, certainly in terms of the way he was treated by the team if not his actual talent-level, Riccardo Patrese.

Interesting point you raise there Mark.

On paper, they should have put full support behind Kimi as the #1 driver and reigning WDC.

As such, Massa would have been cast in position as a Lapdog to the faster driver. A driver who was there on credit and had proven himself at the highest level. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

Maybe they did, and Kimi just didn't perform even with the Number 1 status.

Unlike Michael, who was beaten on pace by Ruben's about four times in 6 seasons.

[PolePosition_1]

Really?

Heikki Kovalianen seems to fit that description perfectly.

Fisichella likewise at Renault with Alonso.

Oh, and Brabham were not above putting a make-weight or cheque-book driver in their second car when Nelson Piquet Sr was in the Number 1 role. Step forward Riccardo Zunio, Hector Rebaque, Teo Fabi, Corrado Fabi and, certainly in terms of the way he was treated by the team if not his actual talent-level, Riccardo Patrese.

Well, thats pretty arguable. Heikki was seen as a big talent with his solid second half season at Renault. And you'd have to say he is given equal opportunity to win at the beginning of championship.

With Heikki or Fisichella, I don't think it was in either of their contracts to play second fiddle to their team mates. And I don't think their support role was anywhere near as concrete as Schumachers team-mate, who played a support role from race 1.

With both current / recent examples you use, both had equal chance of winning the title at start of each season.

[Mark]

With Heikki or Fisichella, I don't think it was in either of their contracts to play second fiddle to their team mates. And I don't think their support role was anywhere near as concrete as Schumachers team-mate, who played a support role from race 1.

With both current / recent examples you use, both had equal chance of winning the title at start of each season.

I think it was the same with both McLaren and Ferrari this season. Both teams gave both their drivers an equal chance of winning. By by the end of the season a clear number 1 had emerged from both teams.

The interesting part is how things will play out in Ferrari in 2009.

[Knock-on]

Maybe they did, and Kimi just didn't perform even with the Number 1 status.

Unlike Michael, who was beaten on pace by Ruben's about four times in 6 seasons.

I seemed obvious to everyone except you that Ferrari were allowing their drivers to race this year and rightly so.

I for one was sceptical of Massa's ability to step up and although I have some reservations still about his performance, do concede he has made great steps forward.

What justification or evidence do you have that there might have been a #1 / #2 contract in favour of Kimi or are you just arguing with me for the sake of it again :rolleyes:

[Knock-on]

I think it was the same with both McLaren and Ferrari this season. Both teams gave both their drivers an equal chance of winning. By by the end of the season a clear number 1 had emerged from both teams.

The interesting part is how things will play out in Ferrari in 2009.

Yep, good to see two top teams allowing their drivers to race from the off.

I expect Ferrari might employ the same tactic next year as Massa rightly wont accept #2 and Kimi wouldn't even consider it.

[ioan]

As such, Massa would have been cast in position as a Lapdog to the faster driver. A driver who was there on credit and had proven himself at the highest level. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

That's just dog crap.

[Knock-on]

That's just dog crap.

Why do you and Tamburello have to constantly be so rude?

If you disagree with a statement I make, kindly impart on the rest of us the wisdom used to define your conclusions.

Just a suggestion?

[Mark]

Why do you and Tamburello have to constantly be so rude?

If you disagree with a statement I make, kindly impart on the rest of us the wisdom used to define your conclusions.

Just a suggestion?

And a good one. If you are going to say something is wrong; fine. But say why.

[ioan]

Yep, good to see two top teams allowing their drivers to race from the off.

I omly saw one team doing that, unless we consider Toyota a top team.

[Knock-on]

I omly saw one team doing that, unless we consider Toyota a top team.

I should have clarified the two top teams I was referring to.

Both McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be letting their drivers race with no constraints.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different.

Does that explain my opinion better?

[Mark]

I should have clarified the two top teams I was referring to.

Both McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be letting their drivers race with no constraints.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different.

Does that explain my opinion better?

Personally if I were a team manager I'd say to my drivers that they can do what they want with regard to competing against each other, except for overtaking each other on the track; just too risky.

[ioan]

The whole grid raced against Schumacher and the only one that proved to be able to keep up was FA, not KR.

As for what lost sould think about why MS left F1, they better take a look at the age when KR will leave and draw some conclusions.

[ioan]

I should have clarified the two top teams I was referring to.

Both McLaren and Ferrari seemed to be letting their drivers race with no constraints.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different.

Does that explain my opinion better?

Kovalainen was never allowed to race Hamilton, not even when he was in front of him because on his own merit.

[Knock-on]

Personally if I were a team manager I'd say to my drivers that they can do what they want with regard to competing against each other, except for overtaking each other on the track; just too risky.

That is an arguement that has been used by all team managers at one time or another.

LH for example was livid that he wasn't allowed to have a go a Alonso at Monaco 2007.

Personally, one of the highlights of last year was Lewis and Heikki challenging and even touching at times especially at the beginning of the season. Don't get me wrong, I was screaming at the TV and ripping my hair out at the risk but it was compulsive stuff.

However, I'm not a team boss. ;)

(However, if the money's right, I may be open to an offer :D )

[Knock-on]

Kovalainen was never allowed to race Hamilton, not even when he was in front of him because on his own merit.


Fair enough if that's your opinion.

Don't agree though as I've seen them racing against each other. Must have been different races I was watching such as the Bourdais pit exit penalty one ;)

I seemed obvious to everyone except you that Ferrari were allowing their drivers to race this year and rightly so.

I for one was sceptical of Massa's ability to step up and although I have some reservations still about his performance, do concede he has made great steps forward.

What justification or evidence do you have that there might have been a #1 / #2 contract in favour of Kimi or are you just arguing with me for the sake of it again :rolleyes:

Well, considering how Kimi is paid in the region of $20million more per year, it should be pretty obvious who Ferrari expected to be Number One in the team.

The fact that Ferrari now allow their drivers equal status says more about Kimi's inability to become an outright Number 1 on merit, as Schumacher so evidently did, than it does about Ferrari's previous policy of an Outright Number 1.

Kimi cannot perform to the level an Outright Number 1 should. For that reason, it would be a useless policy to employ.

However, given that his wage cheque is four times that of Felipe, it would appear that Ferrari had not expected to have to use an equality policy when he signed.

I can't remember any specific examples of Ferrari really dukeing it out together but Lewis and Heikki had some challenging moments and I have no reason to suspect Ferrari were anything different

Side by side through Eau Rouge to Stavelot, that was the red cars was it not?

Pulling wide and not defending a corner at Hockenheim from your team-mate, even though mathematically you still had a chance of the championship, those were the silver cars, were they not?

(Not too mention DC having to pull over twice for Hakkinen)

But keep believing that Mclaren are sportsmanlike and have equal policies. Even though your eyes are telling you otherwise.

Why do you and Tamburello have to constantly be so rude?


Because we have a low tolerance of tossers, maybe?

[SGWilko]

Because we have a low tolerance of tossers, maybe?

Now that ought to provoke a 'mass debate'!

Sorry, should I get my coat? :D

[Knock-on]

Because we have a low tolerance of tossers, maybe?

OK, you may not choose to observe the forum guidelines but don't expect others to stoop to your level. A level where you insult and physically threaten other forum members.

The Mods may be prepared to accept your behaviour but personally, I would be grateful if you just ignore my posts from now on.

Thank you.

[Tazio]

. A man that had raced against Schumacher and proven himself worthy. A driver that some suggest might have scared MS out of Ferrari.

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

I think he was actually referring to Kimi, not Felipe.

[Tazio]

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :My bad! Sorry Knockstar! I am guilty of PWC at 7:30AM

[Mark]

Can we keep the personal insults out of it please :s

[Knock-on]

My bad! Sorry Knockstar! I am guilty of PWC at 7:30AM

That's fine Taz.

Personally, I think Fred was the natural sucessor to MS and think Kimi was always valued slightly above his true worth. However, Schumy considered Kimi to be the main man so what do we know :D

If Kimi was elevated to Schumy like levels of assistance within Ferrari, we might never have seen Massa develop past a lapdog and Ferrari would have been in a much weaker position in my opinion.

[ioan]

As pissed off as I was when it happened, Fred kicked Mike's @ss out of F1.
Massa, who I like, was keen to accept Mike's vast storehouse of knowledge this season, and it paid off.
I disagree with those who suggest that Massa scared him away. I find it comical :p :

Good one! :D
Cheers! :)

[ioan]

If Kimi was elevated to Schumy like levels of assistance within Ferrari, we might never have seen Massa develop past a lapdog and Ferrari would have been in a much weaker position in my opinion.

Remind me how much assistance Kimi got from Ferrari in 2007, than take a look how Felipe had to support him that season, Kimi got everything that Ferrari could give him and became a WDC because his team mate gifted him a win in the decisive race.

Now, tell us when did MS win the WDC because his team mate gave up a win in front of his own crowd!

[Tazio]

That's fine Taz.

Personally, I think Fred was the natural sucessor to MS and think Kimi was always valued slightly above his true worth. However, Schumy considered Kimi to be the main man so what do we know :D

If Kimi was elevated to Schumy like levels of assistance within Ferrari, we might never have seen Massa develop past a lapdog and Ferrari would have been in a much weaker position in my opinion.I can't argue either of those points. In fact I believe it is likely true!

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi got everything that Ferrari could give him and became a WDC because his team mate gifted him a win in the decisive race.

Now, tell us when did MS win the WDC because his team mate gave up a win in front of his own crowd!
You're comparing apples and oranges ioan ;) The Schumacher era at Ferrari was very different to the Kimi/Felipe era we see now.

Whether it is Kimi under-performing or Felipe exceeding expectations (and it's a bit of both IMHO) Ferrari do not have the clear 'lead' driver they had for a decade.

[Tazio]

You're comparing apples and oranges ioan ;) The Schumacher era at Ferrari was very different to the Kimi/Felipe era we see now.

Whether it is Kimi under-performing or Felipe exceeding expectations (and it's a bit of both IMHO) Ferrari do not have the clear 'lead' driver they had for a decade.Fair point. There is a grey area here however.
Ferrari havn't brought a pilot of his talent on board in the last two millenniums. Plus Mike helped developement. Kimi took the biggesr shyte in recorded history last season!IMHO

[ioan]

You're comparing apples and oranges ioan ;) The Schumacher era at Ferrari was very different to the Kimi/Felipe era we see now.


I was comparing last season, 2007, not the 2008 one and IMO Ferrari gave Kimi all the support they could give him, as they did with MS.
I think it was a realistic comparison.

What we see now is different, but last year it wasn't like this year, not at all. But it was the case at McLaren who without any doubt put everything on Hamilton.

[ArrowsFA1]

I was comparing last season, 2007, not the 2008 one and IMO Ferrari gave Kimi all the support they could give him, as they did with MS.
I think it was a realistic comparison.
I don't disagree that Ferrari gave him all the support they could, but I do think he came to Ferrari as a very different person to the one he was "replacing". He also joined a changing Ferrari team. IMHO both of those factors point to this Ferrari not being Kimi's team in the way it used to be Michael's team whether we're talking about 2007 or 2008.

[ioan]

I don't disagree that Ferrari gave him all the support they could, but I do think he came to Ferrari as a very different person to the one he was "replacing". He also joined a changing Ferrari team. IMHO both of those factors point to this Ferrari not being Kimi's team in the way it used to be Michael's team whether we're talking about 2007 or 2008.

Wait a moment.
The discussion was about Ferrari's support to their drivers, and I don't see why I'm contradicted when I say that they supported him as much as possible.

The fact that Kimi didn't manage to attract the teams attention like Michael did, that isn't something the team could have changed as no 2 people are identical.

[jens]

Here has been a talk about purposeful hirings of "second-rate" drivers in top teams and Fisichella was brought as an example. Well, this is not true. If you recall those days, then before joining Renault Fisichella was an extremely highly rated driver, many considered him to be a genuine top driver. Also Webber - highly rated then and also now - got an offer from Renault. So Renault certainly wasn't looking for an average driver to fill their second seat for 2005 and beyond.

About Felipe-Kimi-Fred triangle for 2010. I have noticed that the widely-acknowledged assumption is that it's Räikkönen, who will be replaced if the Alonso-scenario takes place. But I wonder, why is it expected to be him to release the seat, not Massa, whose contract termination would be cheaper?

About Alonso's demands for #2 driver for 2010 and beyond... Well, I don't know if it's a true impression, but at least it seems so that Alonso has changed a bit during 2008. In 2006 (and before) he criticized his team a bit, did it also last year, but in 2008 despite a difficult year his attitude seems to have changed. We may endlessly discuss about, who was right or wrong in 2007, but I suspect the experience Alonso gained from that year has taught him something - and now he seems to be more respectful.

As has been expressed in the past, I would like to see him at Ferrari. Or at least hopefully he won't drive at Renault for the rest of his career, which he has been doing quite a lot already, and wants a new challenge. Changes in line-ups are always exciting to watch. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

The fact that Kimi didn't manage to attract the teams attention like Michael did, that isn't something the team could have changed as no 2 people are identical.
Which is essentially what I'm saying :) Two different drivers, and different circumstances in the team. But you asked...:

Now, tell us when did MS win the WDC because his team mate gave up a win in front of his own crowd!
We all know the answer to that but...two different drivers, and different circumstances makes it like comparing apples and oranges IMHO.

Still, with Santander switching to Ferrari, it will be interesting to see if Fernando does make the move to Maranello in 2010 and whether he secures the #1 status he expects.