The IRL people need help quickly!!!!

[turbofan]

Does anybody think the IRL management really have the business sense to turn this series around? It seems to be one bad move after another. Then when they have an interveiw they point the finger at everything but themselves. Good exposure, good product and fan participation is the key to everthing and they just ignore it. I was in Long Beach, Kansas, and Indy for pole day and the race. I'm trying to support the series but I have never worked so hard and been so frustrated watching something for 35 years as I have been the last 12 months. Am I alone on this deal?

[NickFalzone]

I think that for whatever reason, the IRL management sees themselves as sort of a homespun/grassroots type group that is working for the common good of a niche series. I do not think they are as aggressive in a desire to expand the series as say the cart or CC folks. This has its plusses and minuses financially. They're not taking the big risks from what I can tell, so also not getting the big rewards, and also not going bankrupt. I truly believe that they are OK with it being a 2nd class racing series. If it gets bigger and more popular, great, but that's not their main priority these days. And as I said, that philosophy has its pros and cons, but for those that want the series to become huge again, clearly this way of operating is a bit disappointing. I do think that small things like the centennial, new car package, inevitable dropoff in NASCAR popularity, uptick in economy, will all play into IRLs favor in the next 4-6 years. But this sort of moderate growth will likely come as a result of outside influences and not necessarily the IRL management. I do think Angstadt and Barnhart do a good job in their roles, but I don't see much excitement beyond those 2.

[The instant classic]

Does anybody think the IRL management really have the business sense to turn this series around? It seems to be one bad move after another. Then when they have an interveiw they point the finger at everything but themselves. Good exposure, good product and fan participation is the key to everthing and they just ignore it. I was in Long Beach, Kansas, and Indy for pole day and the race. I'm trying to support the series but I have never worked so hard and been so frustrated watching something for 35 years as I have been the last 12 months. Am I alone on this deal?
im with you 100%
i have been saying that for months!
i think the prob is with the management is that, the IRL is so use too this small run, small fan base, small ratings, small tv deals, and now everything has come at once better everything, now money and power have gone to there heads, and maybe TG doesnt know how to run the IRL on a bigger level? he's use too, being small run, and now i woludn't say its on nascars level, but i wolud say the IRL is like on nascar level in 97' 98' but this year in the IRL was :down: and it was pretty bad when i though the nascar truck racing was better, and this is comming from a indycar fan in me, the year wasnt good so i had to watch nascar,
to many power heads running the business will kill it, that goes for anything, even since the unification seems like everyone got this ego about them, but for good buisness ideas and for the fans, you need to put ego aside

[Bob Riebe]

Sadly Tony George is starting to look more and more like Don Quijote only he does not know his horse left him.

[MDS]

As much as the split was about power it was a vote of no-confidence in Tony George as a leader. There were a lot of behind the scene conversations in 1995 about how bad it could be if Tony got a hold of all of AOWR because as bad as CART might have been, the common wisdom was George would be worse.

The complaints I heard was based on George's management of IMS. Beginning in the early 90s he began to bleed the CART teams, requiring silly things like fees for golfcarts and requiring all food inside the track to come from IMS catering despite the fact that all the teams had their own chefs on staff and largely brought their own food.

For most of the time since 1996 Tony George has had a good economy to work with while he tried to grow his league. A good economy will mask a lot of mistakes, and how the sport gets through the next two years will tell a lot about Tony George. Although I've called him out in person before and think he's the completely wrong guy to be trusted; I hope and pray that Tony George is the man he thinks he is.

[downtowndeco]

Take a step back and tell us. What exactly is it that you don't like?

There is a diversity of circuits. Close racing (the championship was decided at the last race). The Indy 500. A new long term TV contract with a partner that actually appears to give a ****. One (and perhaps two) new mfgs. joining the series in 2010. Stars. Consistency in the schedule. No doubt that the next season (and the one after that and the one after that) will take place. One series.

You can find the bad if you want. Just tell us what it is you are unhappy with though.

[nigelred5]

I'm waiting to see what teams and sponsors actually show up for the first race. In this economy, I'll be shocked to see 18 full time, fully sponsored cars.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

If you start a thread to complain about the series, at least tell us what the bloody heck your problem is. I was hoping that with the merger, the random trolling would go away but here we are again.

[MDS]

Take a step back and tell us. What exactly is it that you don't like?

There is a diversity of circuits. Close racing (the championship was decided at the last race). The Indy 500. A new long term TV contract with a partner that actually appears to give a ****. One (and perhaps two) new mfgs. joining the series in 2010. Stars. Consistency in the schedule. No doubt that the next season (and the one after that and the one after that) will take place. One series.

You can find the bad if you want. Just tell us what it is you are unhappy with though.

The TV Partner is largely unknown with an average rating of less than a .2. Also, the 500 will be the first race of the season on a channel people actually watch. Long Beach should be on ABC.

The schedule is below average at best. I'm not unhappy with losing Surfers given how the Aussies were unwilling to negotiate, but there were better options than the sleeper they put together. Among the things that made no sense to me what so ever; Mid-Ohio over Cleveland; Keeping Homestead on as the schedule at all, much less giving it the season ending date weeks before NASCAR; Turning down Loudon.

There is a general lack of vision in the front office. Telling Monteral to call them if they're interested? Really? I'm sorry, but its a chance to get on a weekend with a Nationwide Race as your undercard. How many opportunities will they have for that? They should be lobbying hard for that weekend.

The biggest blunder in my mind though is that when SMI came to the IRL asking about ending the season at LVMS the IRL guys started asking about the club-level road course! This was just moronic. Instead they gave away the final race to Homestead! Homestead where Malboro has to give away 50,000 tickets just to get 30,000 to show up!

Honestly, I don't think they've made a good move since the IRL was created, and this year was no exception.

[The instant classic]

Take a step back and tell us. What exactly is it that you don't like?

There is a diversity of circuits. Close racing (the championship was decided at the last race). The Indy 500. A new long term TV contract with a partner that actually appears to give a ****. One (and perhaps two) new mfgs. joining the series in 2010. Stars. Consistency in the schedule. No doubt that the next season (and the one after that and the one after that) will take place. One series.

You can find the bad if you want. Just tell us what it is you are unhappy with though.
i wont be someone that doesnt like something and never say way, so i will say why im unhappy,

about the comming indycar years,
more tracks? yes i love that but, road and street tracks? they dont give you great racing witch the IRL is use to giving us, road and street tracks cant give you great side by side racing, they cant give a great finsh like we saw at the last race, with helio and dixson, i wolud just like to see acut back of road and street tracks, i loved the tracks when watching the old champcar, but i dont enjoy them in indycar, they sholud stay with oval racing, superspeedways
for the title comming down to the last race, i dont give to much to that when nascar and F1 did the same thing,

it seems like indycar is going down the same road as nascar, why i say?
ok this quote was not made by me i found it on indycar.com talkback
"that Surfers Paradise race was FIXED! to have an Australia. win" now i cant agree or disagree with that cuz i never saw that race, by i fear that in the comming years more fans will cry "fixed" and thats what nascar fans did,
fixed or not thats not good comming from fans, i just dont want to see indycar say, ok if you think we are fixed just cuz, we have better tv deals ratings, fans, ok fine we will start fixing everything,

[downtowndeco]

Honestly, I don't think they've made a good move since the IRL was created, and this year was no exception.

Well, then nothing they do will ever make you happy.

IMO you should find something else to watch.

[F1boat]

IMO the 2008 IRL Indy Car championship was interesting and closely contested and I have nothing bad to say about it. I also like the 2009 shedule and I think that the people who don't like the IRL are probably old CC fans who would like to see the IRL either falling or becoming another clone of the model which failed twice.

[seppefan]

IMO the 2008 IRL Indy Car championship was interesting and closely contested and I have nothing bad to say about it. I also like the 2009 shedule and I think that the people who don't like the IRL are probably old CC fans who would like to see the IRL either falling or becoming another clone of the model which failed twice.

You maybe right in some instances but I am 100% committed to the IC series working and started my open wheel interest in the US by following CC. I would change the schedule ( lose Sears Point as seems to always be little overtaking and no crowd - get Montreal and some other changes) but I am sure many fans would change a race or two. Please do not think all ex CC fans are anti as that would be a missjudgement. I wonder if hope is enough in these economic times but that is where we are re grid size and the hope that people will pay for Versus which I reckon will give the best coverage of the series for a while having pre race programmes and allowing fans to have a better knowledge of the drivers and teams. I for one am really looking forward to 09 although I have a sneaky feeling that the Lights series may have better racing in depth due to more attainable budgets. St. Pete seems too far away for me.

[Bob Riebe]

IMO the 2008 IRL Indy Car championship was interesting and closely contested and I have nothing bad to say about it. I also like the 2009 shedule and I think that the people who don't like the IRL are probably old CC fans who would like to see the IRL either falling or becoming another clone of the model which failed twice.
Many of them are simply sick of Indy cars turing into a pissant spec. series.

[ShiftingGears]

The Surfers race was good, as it always is. Pity the IRL isn't going back. The cars have to look faster.

Does anyone think that they're spectacular to look at on the road courses?

The cars need to be more agile, but with more power and less aerodynamic grip. Restrictor plates can be used for the oval racing.
Then you'd at least get a spectacular car, even if half the drivers seem inept on the road courses.

[beachbum]

This thread makes little sense to me. It seems some people believe the IRL is a failure because it doesn't fit their vision of what a US open wheel series should be. The fact that every other US major open wheel series with a different approach has failed seems forgotten.

The IRL is a survivor. If you don't like it, go watch F5000, or CART or ChampCar. Oh that's right, you can't because those racing models failed in the US. Even the Atlantic series with its long history is just a shadow of its former self. If you want an international series, the IRL isn't it and was never presented as such.

Right now the economy is pummeling all racing series from the local short track to major series such as NASCAR where hundreds of race team personal have lost their jobs. The IRL is not immune, and if it wants to survive, it has to stick with what has worked in the past for them. If that doesn't fit your desires, well then watch something else.

I am also getting tired of the grumbling about the TV package. ABC and ESPN did a lousy job with the coverage, and contrary to the gripes of those who don't have it, Versus has almost as many households as Speed and the "lesser" ESPN stations like ESPN2 and ESPN Classic where the IRL and even NASCAR has found itself more than once. Versus is part on the biggest cable network in the US, Comcast, and has very good coverage in major metropolitan areas that the sponsors want to reach. Plus, Versus is paying to cover the IRL, a novel idea recently in US open wheel.

I don't like everything the IRL is doing / has done, but it is a survivor and I will enjoy the fact I can still watch great open wheel racing that isn't a cookie cutter copy of F1.

[MDS]

IMO the 2008 IRL Indy Car championship was interesting and closely contested and I have nothing bad to say about it. I also like the 2009 shedule and I think that the people who don't like the IRL are probably old CC fans who would like to see the IRL either falling or becoming another clone of the model which failed twice.

CART didn't fail, Tony George spent it out of existence.

[downtowndeco]

Now that's an interesting twist on reality! : ).

Perhaps CC's faliure (twice) had something to do with it's inflated sense of self importance, it's poor management and it's TERRIBLE miscounting of how many fans they actually had for their style of racing.



CART didn't fail, Tony George spent it out of existence.

[Claus Hansen]

Well, i dont think IRL need help, Tony spent his money on safeguarding his beloved, but not that importen Indy 500 ! Then he turned back on what he was starting, by letting Honda and Toyota in... Over the last 13 years, he and Champcar spent a lot of money, trying to have their own series, finally the saw the light, made a merger, but it was a little to late, now we are left with nothing, a series no one cares about, and even grid size in 2009 will be back to the low 20 ! Merger happen way to late, in the start i blamed TG, but today, i dont care, i just miss the god old dayes of Indy Car racing !

[indycool]

The IRL has rolled with the punches and still is in existence and has a schedule ready to go for 2009. It has made no secret that it wants to be a North American series, Motegi notwithstanding as part of its package with Honda. Like people working together, a strange notion that ex-CC people fail to grasp because their heroes didn't work with ANYONE.

I'm, with beachbum. Nothing the IRL does is going to please EVERYBODY, just like some are going to step away from the table if their wife cooks broccoli. Big deal. Run the races. Enjoy 'em.

[Blancvino]

The IRL has rolled with the punches and still is in existence and has a schedule ready to go for 2009.

Do the math sans the Indy 500 and the only roll is out of existence.

I look in from the side lines from time to time and I see nothing has changed.

I frequently have chuckled at the amount of effort, put in by some to stick up for a REALLY BAD product.

Indy, sorry to dump on your post. I have a lot of respect for you fortitude and you are a stand up guy. But I do think at some point you will realize this is an exercise in insanity.

I must thank grandson and his "vision" for improving my racewalking skills (Mr. T, stop shooting me in the back side with Snickers bars!). I have a lot more time to train.

[fugariracing]

It is far from perfect, but as a so-called top level of open-wheel in America, IndyCar is what's left, like it or not.

I believe the original point of the topic was about the series' leadership. If they see it and promote it as a second-rate series, then that's on them. They were placed in a position of power given the unification which wasn't a merger so much as an absorption. This was their best chance, all told, to begin growing the series. The only way AOWR could turn around was for it to hit rock bottom and it came pretty darn close the last dozen years.

As a whole, the IRL has survived because of Tony George's financial contributions to the series. And the Brickyard 400, the other race where TG gains enough $$$ to keep the series alive.

I'll give TG a modicum of credit for at least sticking with the races he had under contract for 2009 - hence why Iowa, Sonoma, Mid-Ohio and Detroit are on and dates like Cleveland at Road America are not. Easy to forget that in CC's last year there were three prior-to-race cancellations (Denver, Zhuhai and Phoenix) and a handful of failed attempts to promote their product to the far east (remember the much-hyped race in Ansan, South Korea?).

The spec series concept is here to stay in most forms of motorsport, ALMS notwithstanding. The only reason this spec is different than what CC had was everyone started on a level playing field with the DP01 and Cosworth and aero tweaks, tech changes and mods were fairly restricted. The gadgets teams use for the Dallara IC have been perfected and worked on for six, soon to be seven and eight years. Naturally, those who have been around longest have done enough mods to get ahead and are at the front of the pecking order. Like RM said in his last article though, given the economic meltdown globally, Dallara should be doing everything in they can to help the teams with parts and not taking advantage of them.

I do see darker days ahead the next couple years and a potential catastrophe if the new car fails to impress. If teams don't have the budget or don't want to embrace the new car, which in all likelihood will not be bullet-proof to coincide with the 100th anniversary of TG's beloved 500, it could be the death blow for the series. Perhaps that is a bit of a stretch but the new USAC Silver Crown car a number of years back was both ugly and expensive with that series completely vanishing, I'm sure on NASCAR boards there is much contention about the COT. The DP01, all told, is a wasted investment despite being a decent car to look at and incredibly racy.

Even a year into having one series, there remains much work ahead for IndyCar on a road back to respectability.

[anthonyvop]

It has made no secret that it wants to be a North American series, .

It has?

So them why did it sign a fuel sponsor from Brazil to promote a porduct that isn't sold, nor will be sold in the USA?

[-Helix-]

CART didn't fail, Tony George spent it out of existence.

So the Soviet Union didn't actually lose the Cold War, they just got out-spent?

Someone should tell them.

Oh wait, they aren't around anymore either.

[MDS]

So the Soviet Union didn't actually lose the Cold War, they just got out-spent?

Someone should tell them.

Oh wait, they aren't around anymore either.

Essentially the West beat the Soviets by crashing the price of oil, starting an arms race the USSR couldn't afford and bled them militarily in Afghanistan for 10 yeas. So yeah, there is a theory that the cold war was won by American spending.

I maintain, however pointlessly, that had Tony George not started the IRL in 1996, CART would have survived and the sport would be in a better place today because of it.

That said, it is like my views on the President. I didn't vote for the new guy, but I'm going to give him a chance to prove to the world that he's the guy he thinks he is. Likewise, Tony is in control, and I'm hoping that he is the guy he thinks his is, and not the man we fear him to be.

[indycool]

Understand your POV, Blancvino and I also respect your posts. If the IRL isn't your cup of tea, then it isn't. I DO say that you can't "do the math" without the Indy 500 because the Indy 500 is the reason any of this is around in the first place......USAC, CART, CC and IRL.

anthony, we're talking on the other thread about E-85, which can be made by lots of stuff, including corn and sugar cane. My take on this is that the Brazilians want to export more sugar cane to the U.S. with less in tariffs and the corn growers want to be able to raise their prices now that another viable use has come to the forefront to use it. Either way, it promotes ethanol and the Brazilian concern is going to partner with a U.S. refinery to make E85, so it's a cooperative deal of some kind.

fugari, as I have posted before, it looks to me like the IRL will race where it makes financial sense and fits the schedule it wants. Whether your favorites are among 'em in 2010, who knows?

And I forgot the Cold War.....was it a "spec" series? :)

[Bob Riebe]

I can only assume that you felt exactly the same way about CC as it was exactly the same thing, ie: a spec series (DP01s and Cosworths).

Absolutely, the fact the IRL has become a pretend CART/CC, shows that either T.George is a two-faced liar (his vision for the IRL, etc.), or he just stumbles along because he has the money to do so.

[The instant classic]

Absolutely, the fact the IRL has become a pretend CART/CC, shows that either T.George is a two-faced liar (his vision for the IRL, etc.), or he just stumbles along because he has the money to do so.
one word why Tony does that, and that word is "ego"
and i agree with you're view!

[Bob Riebe]

The IRL has rolled with the punches and still is in existence and has a schedule ready to go for 2009. It has made no secret that it wants to be a North American series, Motegi notwithstanding as part of its package with Honda. Like people working together, a strange notion that ex-CC people fail to grasp because their heroes didn't work with ANYONE.

I'm, with beachbum. Nothing the IRL does is going to please EVERYBODY, just like some are going to step away from the table if their wife cooks broccoli. Big deal. Run the races. Enjoy 'em.Ah, the "it is better than nothing" rhetorical stance, or-- don't worry if you do not like it, it is better to eat crap than nothing.

[garyshell]

Do the math sans the Indy 500 and the only roll is out of existence.

But HOW do you do the math without Indy? The calculus of AWOR includes Indy. That is the fact that the folks in CART forgot after the split and the three Amigos didn't understand. (I think KK came to understand it in the end.) Any attempt to do any math without it is just folly, because it totally ignores the part that Madison Ave. plays.

Gary

[beachbum]

Ah, the "it is better than nothing" rhetorical stance, or-- don't worry if you do not like it, it is better to eat crap than nothing.Hardly. Now if you liked dinosaur, you may now need to limit yourself to steak, as dinosaur is extinct. But today, the IRL isn't the only open wheel option available for fans.

The point that was intended it that all of the other series may have been successes as far as "style" or even competitiveness for some fans, but as businesses, they were failures. The IRL may not be fit you idea of an open wheel series, but the business model is better (hardly perfect) than the ones who are now gone / extinct / never to return / bankrupt.

[indycool]

Well, Bob, I don't know what to tell you. It is what it is. If you decide it's crap to you, then it's crap to you. But please tell us what is economically and creatively feasible to all parties concerned in your view while you grump about what it ain't.

[Rex Monaco]

What exactly is it that you don't like?
...
The Indy 500.
...
Just tell us what it is you are unhappy with though.


I don't like the idea of the "Honda 500 at Indy". The last few years should have asterics next to them to denote that competition was locked out by the IRL rules. And this year it was no different.

Sure the unified series just began and we need to give it some time. But this is exactly why some of us don't think that TG will be able to deliver on the leadership.

Under his leadership the center piece of his series, the race that almost everyone believes is the most important to sponsors, engine makers and fans, was turned into a spec series race.

That's not the fault of Nissan, GM or Toyota for pulling out. That's the fault of the IRL rules that prevented those Nissan, GM and Toyota engines from falling into the hands of teams.

[downtowndeco]

Look on the trophy. It has never had a picture of the car nor does it have the manufacturer listed (as far as I can tell). Winning the Indy 500 is about the driver, not what kind of car he drove. If that's the sort of thing that floats your boat I suggest sports car racing or F1.





I don't like the idea of the "Honda 500 at Indy". The last few years should have asterics next to them to denote that competition was locked out by the IRL rules. And this year it was no different.

Sure the unified series just began and we need to give it some time. But this is exactly why some of us don't think that TG will be able to deliver on the leadership.

Under his leadership the center piece of his series, the race that almost everyone believes is the most important to sponsors, engine makers and fans, was turned into a spec series race.

That's not the fault of Nissan, GM or Toyota for pulling out. That's the fault of the IRL rules that prevented those Nissan, GM and Toyota engines from falling into the hands of teams.

[Rex Monaco]

Perhaps CC's faliure (twice) had something to do with it's inflated sense of self importance, it's poor management and it's TERRIBLE miscounting of how many fans they actually had for their style of racing.

Then perhaps for the same exact reasons the IRL is bound to fail?

[garyshell]

That's the fault of the IRL rules that prevented those Nissan, GM and Toyota engines from falling into the hands of teams.


"Falling into their hands" at the cost of mega $$$? Wasn't that the set of rules designed to contain the runaway costs associated with teams having to purchase engines? And wasn't this the same sort of rules that gave us the Panoz/Cosworth package?

If find it quite interesting that you love to take potshots like this without any recollection of the history/rationale behind these sorts of rules. And more importantly, without ever offering a single solution to what you perceive to be a problem. I wonder, do you stand behind the pit boxes during practice sessions and yell "You're not fast enough in the corners. The car is sliding to much. The wheels are spinning coming out of turn two." etc.? And spare me the "Well I am just a fan, it's not my job to come up with the answers. It's only to point out what's wrong..." We've heard it before, and it is quite tiresome.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

But HOW do you do the math without Indy? The calculus of AWOR includes Indy. That is the fact that the folks in CART forgot after the split...

And that was the single largest mistake the allowed the IRL to survive.

CART should have left Indy on the schedule as a points race leaving the financially superior CART teams to outspend the IRL teams.

Madison Ave would never have given the IRL a second thought and nobody would have joined the IRL.

And the IRL feared CART, which is why the IRL chose not to adopt the same formula when it was offered by CART.

[downtowndeco]

Agreed Gary. After all that's gone down in the last 15 years you think that would be enough of a track record to show what works and what doesn't work. The days of multi mfgs & run what ya brung are long over. All things considered, with the economy being what it is, I think the iRL is looking pretty good next year, especially compared to NASCAR, which is in a real free fall & panic mode.



"Falling into their hands" at the cost of mega $$$? Wasn't that the set of rules designed to contain the runaway costs associated with teams having to purchase engines? And wasn't this the same sort of rules that gave us the Panoz/Cosworth package?

If find it quite interesting that you love to take potshots like this without any recollection of the history/rationale behind these sorts of rules. And more importantly, without ever offering a single solution to what you perceive to be a problem. I wonder, do you stand behind the pit boxes during practice sessions and yell "You're not fast enough in the corners. The car is sliding to much. The wheels are spinning coming out of turn two." etc.? And spare me the "Well I am just a fan, it's not my job to come up with the answers. It's only to point out what's wrong..." We've heard it before, and it is quite tiresome.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

If find it quite interesting that you love to take potshots like this without any recollection of the history/rationale behind these sorts of rules. And more importantly, without ever offering a single solution to what you perceive to be a problem. I wonder, do you stand behind the pit boxes during practice sessions and yell "You're not fast enough in the corners. The car is sliding to much. The wheels are spinning coming out of turn two." etc.? And spare me the "Well I am just a fan, it's not my job to come up with the answers. It's only to point out what's wrong..." We've heard it before, and it is quite tiresome.

Whats really tiresome is your continued condescending tone.

But leaving aside your immaturity, USAC, CART and the Indy 500 survived for years, even decades, on manufacturers engines that were privately built and even developed.

While Honda and Toyota's desire to win at all costs helped increase the costs in CART and then later in the IRL, it was the split and more importantly the refusal of the IRL managemnet to adopt the same rules as CART that created an even larger problem. It diminished manufacturers desire for participation in a split series which contibuted to increased costs.

Until the split an engine manufacturer could develop an engine for it's team, and sell them to other teams. If the manufacturer pulled out, that engine design could continue to be sold. It might not have been labeled as Ford, Chevy or Honda engine, but Cosworth, Illmor and Judd were happy to supply them none the less.

After the split and especially after the IRL refused to adopt the common rules proposed by CART, the engine manufacturers had to chose which series in which series to participate and develop an engine specifically for that series. The current IRL rules even now prevent Cosworth from selling engines to teams even though Cosworth has an engine developed to the current specs.

So that is your much less than concise history lesson for today.

I did leave out the whole Champcar/Cosworth deal because they were reacting to circumstances that were created because of the split. And their deal had no effect, negatively or positively, on the Indy 500 or the IRL.

But if you'd like to continue with your comparisons of the IRL to Champcar, then please create a new thread and I'm sure someone will be more than happy to compare the two with you.

[Rex Monaco]

After all that's gone down in the last 15 years you think that would be enough of a track record to show what works and what doesn't work.

So the past 15 years of poor rules and mismanagement, prove that the poor rules and mismanagement should remain in place? Horse pucky!!



The days of multi mfgs & run what ya brung are long over.

Yes, 12 years of poor planning and mismanagement is a very large obstacle to overcome. But with the advent of a new engine spec, the rules could be rewritten to allow anyone to build an engine to spec for entering the Indy 500. It costs nothing to change the rule.

Only the lack of imagination and vision will keep the days of multi-manufacturers and run what ya brung away fom Indy.

[Rex Monaco]

Look on the trophy. It has never had a picture of the car nor does it have the manufacturer listed (as far as I can tell). Winning the Indy 500 is about the driver, not what kind of car he drove. If that's the sort of thing that floats your boat I suggest sports car racing or F1.

Do you really believe a win at the Indy 500 no longer matters to car manufacturers? If so, that means that Indy will never regain it's luster.

[indycool]

Hey, Rex, we agree on one! If CART had merely dusted off their '95 cars and engines in '96, run Disney World and Phoenix, been part of the 25 instead of the 8, run Indy and taken a big share of the purse money, then gone away, the IRL would be no more. Instead, CART was so arrogant that it scheduled a race at Michigan opposite Indy, crashed the whole field on the start embarrassing itself (the Indianapolis Star's Bill Benner called it the "Mulligan 500" because of all the spare cars trotted out to run the race at all) and completely legitimized the IRL.

Where we disagree is your contention about the "Honda 500 at Indy" or, as some degraders have called it, the "IRL 500." It is the Indianapolis 500, has been the Indianapolis 500 and will be the Indianapolis 500 if they run 33 garden tractors. Through the years, there have been many fields which were all or almost all Offenhausers or Cosworths. Because they happen to be all Hondas right now is nothing new. CART legislated the Buicks out of its series by denying competitive boost pressure and Indy allowed it to compete with increased boost pressure. USAC legislated out Andy Granatelli's turbine by diminishing the intake. So EVERYTHING has NEVER been allowed to run.

And the things dd and Gary are saying are correct. It is a person who goes to Victory Lane, gets the wreath, drinks the milk, gets his likeness on the Borg Warner Trophy, not an engine. That is a boast for the marketers who see value in their product carrying the winner to victory at Indy.

You question leadership? Who's still standing, the IRL or CART or CC? The leadership of the IRL has allowed open-wheel racing to continue in this country and at Indy. If those eggs were in another basket, well, see Judge Otte for the result.

[Rex Monaco]

Through the years, there have been many fields which were all or almost all Offenhausers or Cosworths. Because they happen to be all Hondas right now is nothing new. CART legislated the Buicks out of its series by denying competitive boost pressure and Indy allowed it to compete with increased boost pressure. USAC legislated out Andy Granatelli's turbine by diminishing the intake. So EVERYTHING has NEVER been allowed to run.

A spec change in what was allowed to race at Indy is completely different than preventing a manufacturer or an engine builder from running at Indy within the allowed specs. This had never happened at Indy until the IRL era. This is what has lead to the Indy 500's loss of prestige in the world of motorsports.



It is a person who goes to Victory Lane, gets the wreath, drinks the milk, gets his likeness on the Borg Warner Trophy, not an engine.

The engine is listed on the stats. And more people read that stats than look at the trophy.

And until the IRL rules prevented it, auto manufacturers would enter cars so they could add a win at Indy to their own stats.



You question leadership? Who's still standing, the IRL or CART or CC? The leadership of the IRL has allowed open-wheel racing to continue in this country and at Indy.

There are no winners in a nuclear war, only survivors. The IRL stands not because of it's skilled leadership, it stands because of CARTs failure to react properly.

The IRL now stands or falls on it's own. And the problems it currently faces, are the problems it alone created.

[SarahFan]

You question leadership? Who's still standing, the IRL or CART or CC? The leadership of the IRL has allowed open-wheel racing to continue in this country and at Indy. If those eggs were in another basket, well, see Judge Otte for the result.

you contiunue with this silly notion....

the IRL of today is a shadow of what was pre-split...

the PPG Indycar world series was in no way headed for what eventually became the fate of CART and CC

[turbofan]

The reason I started the thread was to discuss the attitude of the management. This is not an IRL - CC argument. Tony George is holding all of the cards in a terrible world economy that is no fault of his. It is the arrogance of how they do business and the remark of how Montreal can call them if they want is a prime example of what I was talking about. What sucessful business grows by setting around waiting on the phone to ring. Whether you liked Surfers or not it was a International event that drew 300,00 people and had world wide exposure, sounds like the same argument for the Indy 500. Move Indy off Memorial day if dates aren't important. If the IRL dates are important to Indy they should have the same respect for the dates that worked great for 18 years at Surfers. It is a global economy get over the racing in states only. Carlos Slim is the second richest man in the world and you have a growing hispanic fan base in the U.S. and a rabid fan base in Mexico plus an event that drew 400,000 in a weekend and your'e not interested in racing in Mexico City. It's all about sponsor dollars and exposure. Telmex is owned by Mr. Slim and they are not interested in going to his country. Tecate, Corona, Herdez, the list goes on and on. Vision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your mind and your eyes have to be open for vision.

[indycool]

Rex, IMO, the split caused any damage that you feel might have been done to the Indianapolis 500.....not the manufacturers or lack of same.

Yep, engine is listed on the stats. So are tires. So are number of laps run, name of driver and hometown, sponsor or name of car, team, laps led, points earned, status, best and worst place during the race, etc. Yet you keep harping that the engine manufacturer is apparently the primary, if not only, thing that matters to you. Your privilege, but I find that to be tunnel vision. And mismanagement is your opinion. It's still standing. It ain't bankrupt.

Ken, there is no question that, in the cyclical nature of the U.S. National Driving Championship, the PPG Indy Car World Series was one of the biggest high points. We can agree wholeheartedly on that. And IMO, if Fred Rhue of PPG, the late Jim Chapman for leadership and PPG's dollars were still atop the series, it would've continued to go on and on that way. Unfortunately, it ran its course.

turbofan: 1) The Indy cars are a North American-centric series; 2) If you have access to Carlos Slim and want him to play with Indy cars, go talk to him; 3) The 400,000 figure was a colossal fake for an attendance number at Mexico City; 4) Tecate, Corona and Herdez got OUT of our sport because of the way they were treated at the time, and that was not by the IRL.

[Blancvino]

You question leadership? Who's still standing, the IRL or CART or CC? The leadership of the IRL has allowed open-wheel racing to continue in this country and at Indy.

Are you saying the IRL leadership is the catalyst that made them outlast CART and Champcar? Are you saying without the IRL Open wheel racing would be gone? We are talking about Tony George and his band of braniacs, right?

:rotflmao:

[downtowndeco]

The surfers date did work great, for CCWS & CC.

The IRL is a North American based series and gets very little value out of chasing sponsors and fans half way around the world. Both CART & CCWS tried to do that & it put them BOTH out of business. That business model does not work.



The reason I started the thread was to discuss the attitude of the management. This is not an IRL - CC argument. Tony George is holding all of the cards in a terrible world economy that is no fault of his. It is the arrogance of how they do business and the remark of how Montreal can call them if they want is a prime example of what I was talking about. What sucessful business grows by setting around waiting on the phone to ring. Whether you liked Surfers or not it was a International event that drew 300,00 people and had world wide exposure, sounds like the same argument for the Indy 500. Move Indy off Memorial day if dates aren't important. If the IRL dates are important to Indy they should have the same respect for the dates that worked great for 18 years at Surfers. It is a global economy get over the racing in states only. Carlos Slim is the second richest man in the world and you have a growing hispanic fan base in the U.S. and a rabid fan base in Mexico plus an event that drew 400,000 in a weekend and your'e not interested in racing in Mexico City. It's all about sponsor dollars and exposure. Telmex is owned by Mr. Slim and they are not interested in going to his country. Tecate, Corona, Herdez, the list goes on and on. Vision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your mind and your eyes have to be open for vision.

[indycool]

No, Blancvino, I'm saying that CART and CC made a gross error in underestimating the importance of the Indianapolis 500. As some of its major teams realized it, they switched and that, under the circumstances of the split, the IRL put respected people in positions to do the right things. That, and its decisions, didn't always work. There were management changes in the IRL during that period, too. but the IRL didn't go bankrupt fighting a war of disrespect.

Starter, there were even predictions of 500,000 before the first Mexico City race. I have been to the Autodromo. It is a (big) city park in a residential area near the airport a couple miles from the nearest freeway although a subway station is nearby. But CART, then CC, and/or the promoters backed off those numbers in the following years, even as they were saying 150,000 for places like Denver with 22,000 seats. The AP stories reported estimates, from year one of "more than 100,000." And "more than 100,000" is a lot of people. I cannot possibly fathom the traffic jam on the Viaducto or the subway or the stadium or that city park with 400,000 people in it. NFW.

[turbofan]

(1) I didn't know Mexico was halfway around the world.

(2) Carlos Slim is already in motorsports. Grand Am, Atlantics and he is familar with open wheel. Sponsors in all types of advertising get crossways at some point in time, but that does not mean you turn your back on them forever.
You look at the upside which is huge for the demographic we are talking about and see if you can come to an agreement that is good for
both parties.
If it is good business for both sides it will move foward.

[downtowndeco]

If it is good business for both sides it will move foward.

That is it, in a nutshell. The IRL & Surfers talked, and it didn't work out. The IRL didn't NEED Surfers. Surfers did not NEED the IRL (or CC for that matter). It just didn't work out.

As for Mexico, why run a race in a country that has little to no interest if you don't have 3 or 4 of it's countrymen jammed into a cockpit at the last moment? If you think the US is rah rah for having American drivers Mexico is even worse. Show up without a Mexican star and you might as well not even hold the race. CC found this out the hard way when they lost Fernandez to the IRL.

[turbofan]

You make it sound like 3 or 4 Mexican drivers in well funded teams would be bad for the series. It seems Adrian has done just fine over the years.

[garyshell]

You make it sound like 3 or 4 Mexican drivers in well funded teams would be bad for the series. It seems Adrian has done just fine over the years.


Huh? How do you get that from the comments? (Not sure WHICH comment you were actually replying to.)

Gary

[indycool]

Starter, agree with you. THAT is reasonable. Especially the part about the traffic jam on the Viaducto.

turbofan, I'm like Gary. Huh? The CART/CC group screwed the pooch on what was a rising interest in Mexico because of Fernandez, Jourdain, et. al., which was a rebuild of the Josele Garza era. If it's going to be, it must be rebuilt all over again.

[Rex Monaco]

Rex, IMO, the split caused any damage that you feel might have been done to the Indianapolis 500.....not the manufacturers or lack of same.

The split created by the IRL and the ensuing IRL rules, created a situation that prevented manufacturers from competing at Indy. This is the first time this had ever happened in the history of the Indy 500.

This lead to a situation where this year the IRL was forced to seek out manufacturers to compete in their series.

Who would have thought that in less than 12 years, the Indy 500 would be begging for auto makers to return?



Yet you keep harping that the engine manufacturer is apparently the primary, if not only, thing that matters to you.

Yes, I might be a racing fan because I am first a car enthusiast.

But currently the IRL and Indy do not have a lack of drivers willing to participate. The current issue is that because of the rules only a single engine maker is allowed to run at Indy. There is no issue with a single driver showing up, drinking the milk and leaving with the trophy.

And if it's just about the drivers, since they already have Honda why would the IRL be begging for something as unimportant as auto maker participation? Something that their mismanagement created.



And mismanagement is your opinion. It's still standing. It ain't bankrupt.

The IRL is begging manufacturers to return to Indy. If that's not a sign of mismanagement, then GM must also be in great shape.

[indycool]

Rex,

1. Manufacturers -- ANY of them -- can compete at Indy and anywhere else in the IRL by applying in advance and becoming approved. There is no prohibition against ANY manufacturer. See the IRL rulebook for the procedure and deadline dates for approval to run. Your statement is totally inaccurate.

2. "Begging" is your word and, IMO, it's inaccurate. Manufacturers were invited to a meeting about the upcoming new rules package and their possible participation and showed up to see what's going on. They've been invited again and some are responding to the "tell me more" invitation. Read Robin Miller's stuff about that at speedtv.com.

3. See #2.

[MDS]

If CART had merely dusted off their '95 cars and engines in '96, run Disney World and Phoenix, been part of the 25 instead of the 8, run Indy and taken a big share of the purse money, then gone away, the IRL would be no more.

First of all, I don't accept your premise, even if all the CART teams had shown up and take the prize fund, Tony George would have just handed tow money to the IRL teams to keep them alive.

Second of all the IRL race at Phoenix was the week after Rio and the week before Surfers. To make that race they would have to had all hired extra crew and doubled their amount of pit equipment because in those days they shipped the cars and equipment straight from Rio to Surfers to cut down on the shipping costs.

[indycool]

First, we'll never know that, one way or the other.

Second, I won't go through the entire timeline, but CART changed its schedule explicitly to DISCOURAGE and/or PREVENT its teams from doing just what I said they could do.

None of which applies now.

[SarahFan]

Ken, there is no question that, in the cyclical nature of the U.S. National Driving Championship, the PPG Indy Car World Series was one of the biggest high points. We can agree wholeheartedly on that. And IMO, if Fred Rhue of PPG, the late Jim Chapman for leadership and PPG's dollars were still atop the series, it would've continued to go on and on that way. Unfortunately, it ran its course.

.


Bull puckey...

the creation of a a second AOWracing series had zero to do with the 'Cyclical nation' of the sport...

it was a direct action taken that has reduced the sport.... PERIOD

[Easy Drifter]

Round and round we go. Since the takeover there have probably being 20 or more threads that end up going over the same tired old BS. Usually with the same posters saying the same things. It is like the Indy 500. 200 times around the same 4 corners.
It has happened. Who was right and who was wrong doesn't matter.
There is now ONE series!
Reliving the past is not doing anything positive.
Just hope that TG and Co. have learned from history and do not make mistakes that happened before by BOTH sides.

IT IS OVER!!!!!!!!

Probably useless rant over.

[indycool]

Defer to Easy Drifter.

[SarahFan]

Round and round we go. Since the takeover there have probably being 20 or more threads that end up going over the same tired old BS. Usually with the same posters saying the same things. It is like the Indy 500. 200 times around the same 4 corners.
It has happened. Who was right and who was wrong doesn't matter.
There is now ONE series!
Reliving the past is not doing anything positive.
Just hope that TG and Co. have learned from history and do not make mistakes that happened before by BOTH sides.

IT IS OVER!!!!!!!!

Probably useless rant over.

if folks can't admit how it got where it is .... and it is in fact where it is.....then it's doomed to continue along the same path...

[indycool]

Just plain DOOMED! HORRORS! TERRIBLE! AWFUL! EVERYBODY BATTEN DOWN THE HATCHES AND START BAILING! THE BRITISH ARE COMING! WHERE'S PAUL REVERE WHEN WE NEED HIM? SOMEBODY SEND THE NATIONAL GUARD TO THE ALAMO! GET OUR BATTLESHIPS OUT OF PEARL HARBOR! ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY AN AK-47 CHEAP? WOULDN'T HURT IF I HAD A GRENADE OR TWO, EITHER.

Sheesh.

[SarahFan]

Just plain DOOMED! HORRORS! TERRIBLE! AWFUL! EVERYBODY BATTEN DOWN THE HATCHES AND START BAILING! THE BRITISH ARE COMING! WHERE'S PAUL REVERE WHEN WE NEED HIM? SOMEBODY SEND THE NATIONAL GUARD TO THE ALAMO! GET OUR BATTLESHIPS OUT OF PEARL HARBOR! ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY AN AK-47 CHEAP? WOULDN'T HURT IF I HAD A GRENADE OR TWO, EITHER.

Sheesh.

silly.... but par


if you can't admit it's broken then how in the world can you honestly discuss it's direction?

sub 1 ratings.....dwindling car counts..... loss of ovalcentricity...7 year search for a title sponsor.... limited availibility on top tier/network TV....

sure I put that all aside on Sunday and watch Ryan race Helio......but at least be honest about the state and direction of the sport from a biz standpoint

[Rex Monaco]

Rex,
2. "Begging" is your word and, IMO, it's inaccurate. Manufacturers were invited to a meeting about the upcoming new rules package and their possible participation and showed up to see what's going on.

An outside firm was hired by the IRL to 'seek out' manufacturers who were willing to 'listen' to an engine proposal so that Honda wouldn't leave the series due to the lack of competition. I'd call that begging manufacturers to return to Indy.

That never had to happen during the USAC or CART era. It is during the IRL era that the Indy 500 has lost it's prestige with auto manufacturers.

And I'll get back to you on the engine rule that prevents me from buying a IRL spec engine from anyone else but Honda and renaming it the 'Monaco Special' in my attempt at an Indy run.

This rule book isn't as easliy found via Google (the official link is broken) and the articles I have found are much to interesting and informative to rush through.

Read this interesting article from 1991 while you wait for my rule book research:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE2DE133BF930A15755C0A9679582 60&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Rex Monaco]

if you can't admit it's broken then how in the world can you honestly discuss it's direction?

Exactly. Admitting there is a problem is the first step to recovery.

[Rex Monaco]

Yep, engine is listed on the stats. So are tires. So are number of laps run, name of driver and hometown, sponsor or name of car, team, laps led, points earned, status, best and worst place during the race, etc.

These are the stats from the official Indy 500 website. Notice that Make/Model are listed, but tires and a number of your other stats are omitted.

http://www.indy500.com/stats/view

Racing has always been about the car and the driver. Just as horse racing is about the horse and the jockey. (Which is were we got the oval track tradition.)

Imagine if the rules required all the horses at the Kentucky Derby to be clones of the same horse. It might be entertaining, but it wouldn't be the Kentucky Derby.

And neither is the Honda 500 at Indy, the Indianapolis 500.

Round and round we go. Since the takeover there have probably being 20 or more threads that end up going over the same tired old BS. Usually with the same posters saying the same things. It is like the Indy 500. 200 times around the same 4 corners.
It has happened. Who was right and who was wrong doesn't matter.
There is now ONE series!
Reliving the past is not doing anything positive.
Just hope that TG and Co. have learned from history and do not make mistakes that happened before by BOTH sides.

IT IS OVER!!!!!!!!

Probably useless rant over.

Excellent post.

[NickFalzone]

There's a difference between saying the IRL needs improvement and saying the IRL is a disaster that needs to be replaced by another series/owner. I'm willing to say that unification is over and TG and the IRL deserve a shot over the next 3-4 years to take advantage of one series with all the drivers. If they screw it up, then clearly they should take the blame as they had no excuses. But I'm optimistic that, even in spite of weak management, IndyCar will get back to its rightful place. And to me, anything beyond constructive criticism of the series at this point is jumping the gun and just looking for stuff to complain about.

[Bob Riebe]

Hardly. Now if you liked dinosaur, you may now need to limit yourself to steak, as dinosaur is extinct. But today, the IRL isn't the only open wheel option available for fans.

The point that was intended it that all of the other series may have been successes as far as "style" or even competitiveness for some fans, but as businesses, they were failures. The IRL may not be fit you idea of an open wheel series, but the business model is better (hardly perfect) than the ones who are now gone / extinct / never to return / bankrupt.
Why is sprint car racing at LEAST as strong as ever?

[indycool]

You guys say it's "broken." I say it faces challenges.

Major Leagaue Baseball wasn't "broken" because of a strike that cut out the World Series. Football wasn't "broken" by the NFL-AFL wars or the NFL-WFL wars. Hockey wasn't broken by the NHL-WHA war.

There are different challenges in peacetime anad wartime. Whether you like it or not, it's peacetime.

[Bob Riebe]

You guys say it's "broken." I say it faces challenges.

Major Leagaue Baseball wasn't "broken" because of a strike that cut out the World Series. Football wasn't "broken" by the NFL-AFL wars or the NFL-WFL wars. Hockey wasn't broken by the NHL-WHA war.

There are different challenges in peacetime anad wartime. Whether you like it or not, it's peacetime.
Baseball WAS broken by the strike,or a WHOLE LOT of people connected to baseball told a WHOLE LOT of lies about tring to get the fans back.

[Easy Drifter]

Bob: Slightly off topic but Sprint Car Racing is facing challenges. The WoO have lost Advance Auto Parts and the 410's are very expensive. I can see everyone switching to the 360's within a year or two especially in the economic climate.
One very good thing is that the various sanctioning bodies do not seem to fight each other and mostly co-operate. USAC being a bit of an exception.
I didn't think there was another sprint car fan on the forum although I suspect IC may be.
Anyway back to our regularly scheduled progrmming!
Sorry for the highjack! :vader:

[Bob Riebe]

Bob: Slightly off topic but Sprint Car Racing is facing challenges. The WoO have lost Advance Auto Parts and the 410's are very expensive. I can see everyone switching to the 360's within a year or two especially in the economic climate.
One very good thing is that the various sanctioning bodies do not seem to fight each other and mostly co-operate. USAC being a bit of an exception.
I didn't think there was another sprint car fan on the forum although I suspect IC may be.
Anyway back to our regularly scheduled progrmming!
Sorry for the highjack! :vader:
It is not really off topic, because those drivers WERE part of T. George's big vision, who he crapped on.

Sprint cars also seem to have quasi-regular up-down cycle with peaks and valleys, but it SURVIVES nationwide.
The REASON why, is what the IRL should looking at, ESPECIALLY due to T.G.'s VISION, and it has squat to do with business cycles.

IF business cycles are used then non-sprint open wheel racing should go belly up, no point in wasting money on it.

[indycool]

ED, my favorite race, other than the "500," is the Kings Royal at Eldora.

Yes, Bob, baseball was slow to recover, and it took a home run race between Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa to bring it back. But it came back.

[CCWS77]

I'm saying that CART and CC made a gross error in underestimating the importance of the Indianapolis 500. As some of its major teams realized it, they switched

What a bizarre statement. How could the Indianapolis 500 have been underestimated in importance when the nature of the split was for all sides to fight for access to it at the expense of all else that was happening! Even in the last few years of CC, there was some momentum to build something that wasn't indycentric, and what happened? Things were derailed again and again by visions, talk and hedging of bets of somehow running at the Indy 500 year after year. CC was still headquartered in Indianapolis despite not racing there and supposedly having a different vision and you are going to say the value of the I500 was underestimated and it was those who actually made a break from it that floundered? BS - no one ever did actually break from it and this hobbled any half-assed attempts to create something independent of it.

There was a decade long war over the I500, and nobody stopped to think 'hey is this fight worth it?' Lets try to build something new instead.' The foundations of OW decayed over that decade as everyone focused on the I500 as a golden goose. That is not an underestimation of its importance, it was an overestimation and obsession.

The current IRL direction is the same. Instead of building a race series that contains the I500, lets build a race series that is a support for the I500. Who cares if certain other venues are good or bad on thier merits, the question is do they fit into the agenda of supporting Indy. Until that changes, I'm never really going to be much of a fan.

[Wilf]

There was N O M E R G E R ! ! !

Champ Car World Series quit, went bankrupt and has been or is in the process of being dissolved . . .
two years or so after CART quit, went bankrupt and was dissolved.

Most people would see there is a trend and would understand that the policies and practices of two companies that went bankrupt should be suspect regardless of an individuals affection for them. Fortunately for open wheel racing the IRL facilitated the integration of the orphaned teams into their league. Granted, the facilitation was beneficial to the IRL but it also was beneficial to the teams. Most of all, it was beneficial to American Open Wheel Racing.

The question of is there an Indianapolis 500 because of the league or is there a league because there is an Indianapolis 500 has pretty much been settled by history. The Indianapolis 500 has outlasted numerous leagues not to mention all of the individual races. In addition to having history on it's side, there is a league because the operator of the Indianapolis 500 wants there to be a league. TG doesn't do this because he is fond of running a league, he does it to make sure he has enough entries for the Indianapolis 500. I really don't know his motives because as far as I can remember he hasn't stated the reason for forming the league. But I can accept the concept that he will do whatever he feels is necessary to ensure the continued success of the Indianapolis 500.

Maybe he is a fool, wasting his money; but so far things have been improving. It might not be as fast, or in the direction you want but please argue your point using a business case instead of questioning the intelligence or integrity of TG or league officials.

[indycool]

Well, '77, that's a different "take." An awkward one, in some ways, but kinda sorta 180 degrees from mine saying the same thing, if that's possible.

CART proclaimed itself to be a series of "Indy cars" from the beginning in 1979. There were CART, and subsequently CC, races with the word "Indy" in them to the end. But when the split occurred in '96, CART teams (with the exception of Galles and Walker) were no longer a part of Indy. Today, the term "Indy" is genuine again, tied to the Indianapolis 500.

To say that TG doesn't care about a series is directly opposite his long-stated intention that Indy be part of a series. So he built one, in the face of everyone in the F-Troop mentality. And there we be.

Are Iowa or Richmond or Edmonton ever going to be as big as the Indianapolis 500? No way. But, as CART promoted itself with the term Indy cars through its glory years with the PPG Indy Car World Series, the drivers and cars that run Indy are going to run at Iowa and Richmond and Edmonton.

[SarahFan]

Well, '77, that's a different "take." An awkward one, in some ways, but kinda sorta 180 degrees from mine saying the same thing, if that's possible.

CART proclaimed itself to be a series of "Indy cars" from the beginning in 1979. There were CART, and subsequently CC, races with the word "Indy" in them to the end. But when the split occurred in '96, CART teams (with the exception of Galles and Walker) were no longer a part of Indy. Today, the term "Indy" is genuine again, tied to the Indianapolis 500.

To say that TG doesn't care about a series is directly opposite his long-stated intention that Indy be part of a series. So he built one, in the face of everyone in the F-Troop mentality. And there we be.

Are Iowa or Richmond or Edmonton ever going to be as big as the Indianapolis 500? No way. But, as CART promoted itself with the term Indy cars through its glory years with the PPG Indy Car World Series, the drivers and cars that run Indy are going to run at Iowa and Richmond and Edmonton.

are you suggesting the word "INDY" was not genuine from 1996-2007?

[Rex Monaco]

In addition to having history on it's side, there is a league because the operator of the Indianapolis 500 wants there to be a league. TG doesn't do this because he is fond of running a league, he does it to make sure he has enough entries for the Indianapolis 500.

Until TG formed the league, there was never an issue of not having enough entrants for the Indy 500. It was the formation of the league and, more importantly, the ensuing IRL rules governing the race that are responsible for the decline in the participation at Indy and the decline in prestige the Indy 500 has for auto makers and racing fans.

So the premise that he formed to league to protect his race, appears to have a MAJOR flaw. If protecting the race was truly his goal, then he would have folded the league several years ago for the good of his race.

But in fact, from the very beginning he used his race to protect his league. So there must be another motive for the formation and the all cost protection of the league with a disregard to protecing the integrity of his race.



...but so far things have been improving.

There was an improvement in the number of entrants this year from last. For the series and the race.

But there is no improvement when comparing it to 1995. And that is the bar that all success of this league should be measured with. Not the post-war rubble that the formation of the league created.

And every moron in the world knew how to fix it. But only one moron was able to make that decision and he was very slow in making it.

So if we want to credit him for partially repairing what he is responsible for breaking, then yes we should give him credit for not being a total idiot.



It might not be as fast, or in the direction you want but please argue your point using a business case instead of questioning the intelligence or integrity of TG or league officials.

I have already shown that your above business case is flawed. You claim he formed the league to protect the race. But it is the existance of the league and the leagues rules themselves that have damaged the race.

The current rule package at Indy is designed to support the league by requiring engine makers to supply the whole field for the whole season, a league that no longer needs to be protected.

So the solution is again obvious to every moron in the world. Change the rules at Indy to allow any manufacturer or engine builder or hot rodder to build, buy or borrow an engine for their team to enter the Indy 500. If it meets the engine specs, then let it run at Indy.

But only one moron can make that decision and recent history indicates that the decision will be made much too slow and much too late to matter.

[Rex Monaco]

To say that TG doesn't care about a series is directly opposite his long-stated intention that Indy be part of a series.

And he cared so much having his own series, that he was willing to use the prestige of Indy 500 to do it. And in the process, he diminished his race and all but destroyed AOWR.

But he's still standing, so he's a winner!

[DBell]

Yes, Bob, baseball was slow to recover, and it took a home run race between Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa to bring it back. But it came back.


True, but baseball is woven in the fabric of America at a level that Indy car hasn't been. And baseball was slow to recover from one diastrous season, not 12 years of self annialation. Imo, The merge, unification or capitulation, whatever the term is this week, may be a case of too little, way too late. If a fan base that captures younger people can be developed, then there is a chance to return to the upper levels of sport. If not, then AOW will continue to fade into obscurity.

[Rex Monaco]

The current IRL direction is the same. Instead of building a race series that contains the I500, lets build a race series that is a support for the I500.

Actually I beleive that the current rules, which were established during the war to protect the series by using the Indy 500 as a weapon, are the rules which are now preventing the Indy 500 from regaining it's status as a premier race in motorsports.

[Rex Monaco]

are you suggesting the word "INDY" was not genuine from 1996-2007?

I'd say it's not even genuine now. These are IndyHondas.

Give us some cars and it will again be genuine!

[SarahFan]

a chance to return to the upper levels of sport. If not, then AOW will continue to fade into obscurity.

AOWR was never at the levels of baseball.. football etc..nor will it ever be

but I'd just like it to regain a level of being self supporting ..... where teams (24-33) can operate financially independant of the league including HIRING paid quality racers throughout the field, or at least darn close to it

[DBell]

AOWR was never at the levels of baseball.. football etc..nor will it ever be

but I'd just like it to regain a level of being self supporting ..... where teams (24-33) can operate financially independant of the league including HIRING paid quality racers throughout the field, or at least darn close to it


I should have phrased that as the upper levels of motorsport. I wasn't comparing racing to stick and ball sports.

[SarahFan]

I should have phrased that as the upper levels of motorsport. I wasn't comparing racing to stick and ball sports.

you phrased it just fine....I was just elaborating on your point..


I suspect were on the same page

[SarahFan]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/robin-millers-mailbag-for-november-26//P5/

Robins mail bag...


first sentence of the first answer on page 3 sums things up IMO

[indycool]

Baseball didn't have a 12-year division.

And Rex, you're very good at calling people names.

And Ken, Indy was NOT genuine in connection with a CART or CC race from 1996-2007.

[Rex Monaco]

And Rex, you're very good at calling people names.

I guess that's the easiest way to completely ignore my valid points.

[downtowndeco]

I gotta say I love this feature;

"This message is hidden because Rex Monaco is on your ignore list."

[indycool]

Well, Rex, you're the one declaring them valid.

[garyshell]

I guess that's the easiest way to completely ignore my valid points.


Well, Rex, you're the one declaring them valid.

Rex,

You seem intent on finding the easiest way to get the points that ARE valid ignored.

IC,

You are beating you head against a brick wall.

Gary

[Wilf]

So the solution is again obvious to every moron in the world. Change the rules at Indy to allow any manufacturer or engine builder or hot rodder to build, buy or borrow an engine for their team to enter the Indy 500. If it meets the engine specs, then let it run at Indy.

But only one moron can make that decision and recent history indicates that the decision will be made much too slow and much too late to matter.

Fortunately, I must not be part of the group you call morons because it isn't obvious to me. Maybe you can convince the person you call the one moron that you can reduce cost by going back to the the way the old rules did. Here's what knowledgeable people at that time thought:


Motorsport.com archives (April 20, 1994) -- Rumors persist that Honda has a similar 209 cubic inch single-camshaft, push-rod engine specifically for Indianapolis. Nigel Mansell has been the most visible voice fuelling this rumor. Robert Clarke, who runs Honda Performance Development, Inc., in California where Honda's Indy engines are maintained, last weekend emphatically denied the existence of such an engine.

"We don't have an engine of that type," said Clarke. "We're fully occupied with the 160 cubic inch program, I can assure you. But if USAC's rules remain the same for next year, we'll have to take a close look at building a 3.4 liter, single-camshaft engine. We hope we don't have to, but if the option is still there we may have to go that route."

Ford and Cosworth personnel offered similar opinions about 1995. "It'll certainly make Indy racing a whole lot more expensive," said Cosworth engineer Malcolm Tyrrell.

I prefer to think others know more and are more intelligent than me and so I try to win arguments with statements from respected sources. Repeating the same old statement does not make it any more valid. Unlike your statements, time does not stand still; very little in our world is the same as it was in 1995. Let it go the way the estimates of 1/2 million attendance have gone; those were crazy days, the likes of which we probably will never see again.

[SarahFan]

And Ken, Indy was NOT genuine in connection with a CART or CC race from 1996-2007.

so the Australian Indy race which had at the time of the split a 5 year history.... leased the rights to the name (leagally from TG and Co.) for an additional decade plus was not 'genuine'?

simply becuase TG created the IRL?

[Rex Monaco]

I gotta say I love this feature;

"This message is hidden because Rex Monaco is on your ignore list."

I use my own self control rather than have the website do it for me. But to each his own.

[Rex Monaco]

Maybe you can convince the person you call the one moron that you can reduce cost by going back to the the way the old rules did.

I'm not advocating going back to the old rules. I'm advocating open competition for any engine maker that wants to make a turbocharged inline 4 cylinder engine to the impending 2011 specs.

Competition should not be kept out simply because 14 years ago a Cosworth engineer thought that Honda might want to win Indy so bad that they were willing to do whatever it took within the rules to win.

A single and stable engine spec is all that is needed to ensure equality and interest at Indy. Even if Audi, BMW or Porsche decide that it's worth more to them to get their first Indy 500 win.

Because history also shows us that this era will come to an end. And then it will be left to a Cosworth or a Roush to supply the engines to the field until a Hyundai, Chery or Tata discover international racing and think that an Indy 500 stat is realistically obtainable.

And records are why 100's of entrants and major manufacturers continue to show up to Bonneville and Pikes Peak, despite the lack of live ABC tv coverage.

[Rex Monaco]

Rex,

You seem intent on finding the easiest way to get the points that ARE valid ignored.

If I call TG an idiot or a moron, then I do so with kindness and respect.

Personally I think this sport and this league would be in much better shape today had some fans held the IRL accountable for it's mistakes. And this sport will only improve when more fans have half the passion for the Indy 500 and it's traditions as myself.

[Rex Monaco]

I prefer to think others know more and are more intelligent than me and so I try to win arguments with statements from respected sources.

Would you rather that I cut and paste my reponses? Will you really be much more willing to accept my premises as being valid if they are shared by other people in the world of racing?

Aren't you then going to reject my sources because they are not respected by you?



Repeating the same old statement does not make it any more valid.

You mean like repeating the statement that keeping competition out of the Indy 500 is the only possible way in which to contain costs?

[garyshell]

If I call TG an idiot or a moron, then I do so with kindness and respect.

Personally I think this sport and this league would be in much better shape today had some fans held the IRL accountable for it's mistakes. And this sport will only improve when more fans have half the passion for the Indy 500 and it's traditions as myself.


Ah yes, the old "only I am a TRUE fan" argument. ...shakes head...

Just how do you propose that "some fans" should have gone about holding the IRL accountable?

Gary

[garyshell]

You mean like repeating the statement that keeping competition out of the Indy 500 is the only possible way in which to contain costs?

No, we mean like waiting for you to show how opening it up can be accomplished while holding down costs. The rest of us remember the history of what happened to cost when there was open competition between manufacturers. We keep repeating we don't see any way to avoid this. YOU are the one convinced that it can be done, but never seem to indicate HOW. This seems to be a trend with your posts. You claim that there are solutions but never say what they are. When pressed on that issue, you simply state it's not your job. When confronted with the history that indicates that open competition was an abject failure, you demand that it should be brought back.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

No, we mean like waiting for you to show how opening it up can be accomplished while holding down costs.

There is no need for waiting. I've made several suggestions as to how to hold down costs in several threads. Paying attention is all that is required.

The first and most important way to contain costs is to maintain a stable engine rule.

If containing costs were truly the goal of the IRL, then they never would have switched from the 'CART' turbocharged V8's.

Now that they've won, they have an engine formula that not even Honda likes and they have to spend more money changing it again.

I've suggested an idea in this forum that even TG once embraced. Adopt an engine formula from another series.

TG once wanted to adopt the F1 engine formula. And not so he could contains costs. He wanted to do it to...wait for it...wait....wait...yep, he wanted to do it ensure there was diverse competition at Indy!

This idea would help spread the development costs of an engine out over several series and many more teams.

Look at the Grand-Am Daytona Prototypes where car count and funding is not an issue. They have 7 approved chassis and 5 approved engines. The engines must come from a major manufacturer but they can be built and improved by anyone. The bodywork can also be modified to some degree.

So if you guys can't see how diversity and cost containment can coexist, then try looking outside the 'oval' box. (Or is Daytona inaide the oval box?)

[Rex Monaco]

When pressed...



When confronted...

I really am tired of being PRESSED and CONFRONTED by you. So relax before I start pressing back in a confrontational manner.

[Rex Monaco]

Just how do you propose that "some fans" should have gone about holding the IRL accountable?

You really can't figure this out on your own? No, really! You can't figure this out on your own?

Or is this part of your incessant need to press and confront me?

[Rex Monaco]

Ah yes, the old "only I am a TRUE fan" argument. ...shakes head...

Wow, some ridicule! It's nice to see you mixing up your confrontation with a little ridicule. There's nothing like making an internet discussion personal.

[Rex Monaco]

Look on the trophy. It has never had a picture of the car nor does it have the manufacturer listed (as far as I can tell). Winning the Indy 500 is about the driver, not what kind of car he drove. If that's the sort of thing that floats your boat I suggest sports car racing or F1.

And as for ignoring me, you should be really happy that anyone responds to posts like these!

[indycool]

Okay, Rex, a bit of history:

In the late '60s, under an open engine spec, Andy Granatelli trotted out a turbine that blew everybody away at Indy. Didn't win, but the die was cast. If USAC didn't change the rules on the turbine, you'd have seen a short field the next year because teams would have said "Why bother? We can't get one anyway."

In the early '80s, Dan Gurney put together a stock block and almost won at Watkins Glen with Rocky Moran. CART owners, all with a fistful of investments in Cosworths in their barns, kicked Gurney off the BoD and banned his engine.

In the late '80s, Penske did a deal with Chevy, built up an engine that couldn't lose and teaspooned out who was allowed to buy one. CART fields shriveled to the tune of 21 starters in the 1991 Michigan 500.

In 1994, Penske found a loophole in the engine rules to allow him to build a superior Mercedes that no one else could get and ran away with the Indianapolis 500. It was banned the following year.

In all the PPG Indy Car World Series years, USAC allowed competitive boost for the Buick engine at Indy (or we would've seen short fields then) but CART cut it back in its own rules to make it uncompetitive for the rest of the series, so a couple teams tried a race or two with it and everybody else with Buicks forgot about running the series.

THIS is what your suggestion breeds, and has throughout history. If what you want is sneak attacks on rule books to determine who was SMARTER in the race shop and that's your idea of racing, then that's what you would get with your ideas.

[Rex Monaco]

THIS is what your suggestion breeds...

If allowing multiple manufacturers to compete at Indy will 'alledgedly' increase costs, then why is Grand-Am able to contain costs while maintaining what amounts to an open entry rule?

In Grand-Am as long as the engine is submitted and approved, it can be run at Daytona or in the whole series.

4-1 Eligibility - Grand-Am will regulate engines as follows -
4-1.1 The eligible engines will be determined, selected, and approved by Grand-Am. To be approved, an engine must be submitted to Grand-Am for testing and analysis.
Upon approval, Grand-Am will specify components and performance levels that must be strictly adhered to.

And the 24 Hours of Daytona is similar to the Indy 500, in that a single make running for 24 hours would have diminshed the value of the race.

So they did what was required to protect the race. Which was allow multiple manufactuers, engine and chassis, to submit their product to adhere to a set of rules.

Gran-Am has proven that costs can be contained while allowing multiple manufacturers to compete. That's a current fact, not a stick in the mud theory based on some past USAC experience.

[Rex Monaco]

In the late '60s, under an open engine spec...

Part of the problem we are having is your guys inability to comprehend what I am writing. I am not advocating an open engine spec.

I will concede that with the current economic crisis and the current management crisis, this would have no short-term effect on bringing more competition and the speedway is ill equiped to regulate such a formula.

Although I do beleive that an equivilancy formula to only allow Diesel, Hybrid, Electric or Alternative fueled cars to run Indy with no refueling would be good for the auto industry and it would fit into the direction that our nation and the world is heading.

But recognizing the reality that it is much too complicated for a devalued race and series, I am advocating that a engine specification be determined and allow any manufacturer, engineering firm or machine shop to build an engine to Indy spec using only Indy approved suppliers.

Gran-Am shows us it is possible. So all that is needed is for some of you people to let go of the fears of the past and embrace the future.

[SarahFan]

Part of the problem we are having is your guys inability to comprehend what I am writing. I am not advocating an open engine spec.

.

some of you are so hung up on attacking rex the poster you have completly ignored the posts......the above bears repeating

he is saying.... define the parameters...let the manufactures and engine builders do what it is they do....


yes IC post shows what can and will happen if the rules are too loose..... so heavily monitor/police them... adapt as necessary

[Rex Monaco]

The current IRL rules even now prevent Cosworth from selling engines to teams even though Cosworth has an engine developed to the current specs.


But with the advent of a new engine spec, the rules could be rewritten to allow anyone to build an engine to spec for entering the Indy 500.


And I'll get back to you on the engine rule that prevents me from buying a IRL spec engine from anyone else but Honda and renaming it the 'Monaco Special' in my attempt at an Indy run.Side Note: Maybe the Indycar Series should make the rules as easy to find as they are on the Gran-Am site as this might help encourage more entrants too!


Change the rules at Indy to allow any manufacturer or engine builder or hot rodder to build, buy or borrow an engine for their team to enter the Indy 500. If it meets the engine specs, then let it run at Indy.


I'm advocating open competition for any engine maker that wants to make a turbocharged inline 4 cylinder engine to the impending 2011 specs.


I am advocating that a engine specification be determined and allow any manufacturer, engineering firm or machine shop to build an engine to Indy spec using only Indy approved suppliers.

I can't make it any clearer. It is now up to you guys to use your English comprehension skills to absorb what I have been saying in this thread for several days.

[nanders]

I'm changing the focus here.

Recently Lee White, North American Toyota Racing Developments supremo, was quoted in a Gordon Kirby piece that he thought IndyCar should return to the 1994 formula or more specifically a 94 Lola and Cosworth engines. http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2008/the_way_it_is_no159.html

'White says, "I did give Rod my opinion. I told him to go get a 1994 Lola or Reynard and put a Cosworth engine in it and go racing. Then you would have something that sounds great, runs great, looks great and puts on a great show, and everybody who loved them will jump at the chance to come and watch because there's still a lot of people out there who remember how great those cars were. Use that as a kind of retro starting point and build it from there. But I don't think they listened."'

Many of you know, I SIM race. Our league evaluated many North American Open Wheel versions that included current IndyCar specs Champcar specs and a 94/95 spec. The version that emulated current specifications was gutless with little throttle response, road races poorly because of the lack of throttle and over all totally rejected by the league. We finally settled on the 1994 / 1995 IndyCar http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=1995%20CART%20Season because it offered excellent drive-ability / throttle response. I am now racing in 4 leagues that have all embraced this 94/95 version, some of which have changed from the "milk toast" current IndyCar. No wonder Danica can drive that car.

My point is, how much simpler could it be to provide the fans with exactly what they want and contain cost?

'"But I don't think they listened."' This typifies one of the main problems with IndyCar ... all they can do is hear their own wheels turning. They continue to make the mistakes that alienate the fans and soon IndyCar could be right there with CANAM and GTP ..... extinct!

[SarahFan]

I'm changing the focus here.

Recently Lee White, North American Toyota Racing Developments supremo, was quoted in a Gordon Kirby piece that he thought IndyCar should return to the 1994 formula or more specifically a 94 Lola and Cosworth engines. http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2008/the_way_it_is_no159.html

'White says, "I did give Rod my opinion. I told him to go get a 1994 Lola or Reynard and put a Cosworth engine in it and go racing. Then you would have something that sounds great, runs great, looks great and puts on a great show, and everybody who loved them will jump at the chance to come and watch because there's still a lot of people out there who remember how great those cars were. Use that as a kind of retro starting point and build it from there. But I don't think they listened."'

Many of you know, I SIM race. Our league evaluated many North American Open Wheel versions that included current IndyCar specs Champcar specs and a 94/95 spec. The version that emulated current specifications was gutless with little throttle response, road races poorly because of the lack of throttle and over all totally rejected by the league. We finally settled on the 1994 / 1995 IndyCar http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=1995%20CART%20Season because it offered excellent drive-ability / throttle response. I am now racing in 4 leagues that have all embraced this 94/95 version, some of which have changed from the "milk toast" current IndyCar. No wonder Danica can drive that car.

My point is, how much simpler could it be to provide the fans with exactly what they want and contain cost?

'"But I don't think they listened."' This typifies one of the main problems with IndyCar ... all they can do is hear their own wheels turning. They continue to make the mistakes that alienate the fans and soon IndyCar could be right there with CANAM and GTP ..... extinct!


similarly Robin Miller in his most recent mailbag advocated getting back to 900hp....

while i certainly respect anyone climbing in and running at over 200 inches from the wall..... the current engine/chassis doesn't seperate the men the from the boys IMO

[Rex Monaco]

http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2008/the_way_it_is_no159.html

Good link. I think it deserves it's own thread. So here I go!

The first and most important way to contain costs is to maintain a stable engine rule.

Like in F1 when they had 3 litre V10's, you mean?

Yep, that got manufacturers involved.

Don't see many small teams anymore though, just a series that nobody can afford to enter.

So much for keeping costs down with that idea then.

[Rex Monaco]

Like in F1 when they had 3 litre V10's, you mean?

Yep, that got manufacturers involved.

Don't see many small teams anymore though, just a series that nobody can afford to enter.

So much for keeping costs down with that idea then.

Are you really serious? You think it was rule stability that created the problem?

[indycool]

Rex, you're ALMOST saying the same thing I am. The IRL rules are VERY CLOSE to what you're proposing and what the Grand Am rules are.

The only thing different from the IRL and Grand Am engine rules, other than specifications, is that the IRL mandates that, after an engine is approved, the manufacturer must be prepared to supply half the field and it must be badged. That's how it started out, new deal with Honda alone and that's what they're trying to get back to.

None of them are "shut out" as you portray.

[CCWS77]

Well, '77, that's a different "take." An awkward one, in some ways, but kinda sorta 180 degrees from mine saying the same thing, if that's possible.

I think we agree, more then it seemed at first, in that all of open wheel has felt they needed a connection to the Indy 500 and that affected their actions and direction. Where we differ, is you are saying CART & CC failed because they did not sufficiently make that connection. I am saying they floundered because they utterly failed to make a clean break. That is a matter of opinion we will probably never agree on. We both agree though, the half-assed immaterial, insubstantial and yet omnipresent connection to Indy killed CART & CC.

[indycool]

I think we DO agree. If CART was going to be "separatist" from Indy instead of competing with Indy, it stood a better chance.

[Rex Monaco]

None of them are "shut out" as you portray.

If I wanted to field a Toyota powerd car next year at Indy, I could not enter it.

Why not? The engine is made to IRL spec and it's been approved by the IRL. But it's the rules that prevent me from buying a Toyota engine and running it at Indy.

So the rules as they are now, have shut out all competition at Indy, except for Honda. Never in the history of the Indy 500 have entrants been required to use an approved engine manufacturer, it has always been open to engines that meet the engine specs. And to this it must return.

[garyshell]

If I wanted to field a Toyota powerd car next year at Indy, I could not enter it.

Why not? The engine is made to IRL spec and it's been approved by the IRL. But it's the rules that prevent me from buying a Toyota engine and running it at Indy.

So the rules as they are now, have shut out all competition at Indy, except for Honda. Never in the history of the Indy 500 have entrants been required to use an approved engine manufacturer, it has always been open to engines that meet the engine specs. And to this it must return.


What prevents it from being used? I believe the only real hurdle is that Toyota is unprepared to provide that engine to half the field. That, I think, is a very REAL cost saving measure. It prevents someone like Toyota from coming in and spending millions of dollars on a single team to gain the PR from winning the Indy 500. If Toyota were willing to supply the requisite number of engines I think there would be nothing to prevent their immediate return to the series.

While I agree that the 500 should be open to all engines that meet the spec, I also think that the addition of a minimum number of teams have ACCESS to a given engine is a very good idea. Note that I am not suggesting (nor does the rule) that a minimum number of teams actually use the engine, only that they be available.

I know I am quibbling semantics here, but the 500 has ALWAYS be run with the requirement that the engine be from an approved supplier. The engines had to be approved as meeting the spec. Any manufacturer of an approved engine was an approved manufacturer.

Gary

[indycool]

Rex, read Gary's post and then read my other post about those who have "stolen" the "500" in the boardroom or tried.

If you are a fan of what subterfuge can be gained by loopholes in the rules that might be gained in the boardroom, then try to buy a ticket to the boardroom. I can really only speak for myself, but, IMO, the rest of us would rather see races won or lost on the race track and see teams outrun and outsmart each other by racecraft.

No, Toyota couldn't run next year's "500." If it wants to resubmit its engine for approval, it could go through the same process it already did to enter the IRL and run in 2010. No secret hand-grenade engines for qualifying, no trick airboxes or other whatsises and all that's done before they spend money on 'em.

But the rules do NOT prevent Toyota from the league. Toyota must follow the league's rules to participate. No different than any other series.

[Rex Monaco]

What prevents it from being used? I believe the only real hurdle is that Toyota is unprepared to provide that engine to half the field.

So this rule does not make it economically feasable for Toyota to sell engines at a profit? Then exactly how is it supposed to contain costs?

[Rex Monaco]

No secret hand-grenade engines for qualifying, no trick airboxes or other whatsises and all that's done before they spend money on 'em.

So the rules at Indy were flawed and in an attempt to improve the rules they created another major flaw in the rules?

I agree. So fix the current flaw, while not returning to the past mistakes.

So how easy it is to do? It's fighting people who are stuck in the past that seems to be the largest hurdle here.

[garyshell]

What prevents it from being used? I believe the only real hurdle is that Toyota is unprepared to provide that engine to half the field.


So this rule does not make it economically feasable for Toyota to sell engines at a profit? Then exactly how is it supposed to contain costs?


Not sure I follow that. How does the restriction that an engine supplier must be prepare to provide them to half the field restrict their profits? It just means that you can't put all your efforts behind one team and lock everyone else out of the technology you develop. I don't think the rule says you can't sell 'em. Just that you have to offer to sell them to half the field at the same price.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

No secret hand-grenade engines for qualifying, no trick airboxes or other whatsises and all that's done before they spend money on 'em.

And Grand-Am has addressed all this. Is Grand-Am really a series full of smarter people?

[garyshell]

So the rules at Indy were flawed and in an attempt to improve the rules they created another major flaw in the rules?

I agree. So fix the current flaw, while not returning to the past mistakes.

So how easy it is to do? It's fighting people who are stuck in the past that seems to be the largest hurdle here.


What is the "fix"? Again, I am confused as to what you seek. The rules now say that anyone can submit an engine that meets the specs and get it approved. With the proviso that you are willing to supply a certain number of teams at a consistent price. Where do you see a flaw in that? I am not suggesting there is no flaw, I just don't understand what the flaw you see is.

Gary

[garyshell]

And Grand-Am has addressed all this. Is Grand-Am really a series full of smarter people?


I know nothing of the Grand-Am rules. How are they different?

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I don't think the rule says you can't sell 'em.


I don't know what the rules say, as I can't find them. The only official link I found is broken. I searched all over Indycar.com and google, and they are nowhere to be found.

But let's use Cosworth as an example.

The rules must be preventing Coworth from selling engines to up to half the field or this 'for profit' engineering firm would certainly be trying to sell engines to somebody and somebody would certainly be using there engine.

[garyshell]

I don't know what the rules say, as I can't find them. The only official link I found is broken. I searched all over Indycar.com and google, and they are nowhere to be found.

But let's use Cosworth as an example.

The rules must be preventing Coworth from selling engines to up to half the field or this 'for profit' engineering firm would certainly be trying to sell engines to somebody and somebody would certainly be using there engine.


I don't think Cosworth has an engine that meets the current spec. The operative word there is THINK. But I seem to remember some discusssion of this when the unification was announced.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I know nothing of the Grand-Am rules. How are they different?

http://www.grand-am.com/competition/



SECTION 4 - ENGINE ELIGIBILITY AND MODIFICATIONS
4-1 Eligibility - Grand-Am will regulate engines as follows -
4-1.1 The eligible engines will be determined, selected, and approved by Grand-Am. To be
approved, an engine must be submitted to Grand-Am for testing and analysis.
Upon approval, Grand-Am will specify components and performance levels that
must be strictly adhered to.
4-1.2 All engines must be production-based engines (changes in bore and stroke or other
specifications may be required by Grand-Am in some circumstances).
4-1.3 Maximum engine RPM, throttle body size/diameter, valve lift and size, and maximum
compression ratio will be specified for each approved engine. Engine air box and
air inlet restrictions may also be required.
4-1.4 It is mandatory that all major components and parts be for sale to the public in a
regular product offering. Grand-Am must approve all components/parts prior to
being used in competition.
4-1.5 All approved components/parts and modifications will be specifically listed for each
eligible engine. A current Engine Eligibility and Approval List is available from
Grand-Am at 386-947-6681 or online at http://www.grand-am.com.
4-2 General Engine Requirements
4-2.1 Engines must be normally aspirated.
4-2.2 All components/parts and dimensions must remain as series produced or as
Grand-Am specifies.
4-2.3 Cylinder heads must retain the same number and location of intake and exhaust
ports, valves, spark plugs, and camshafts (if used) as the production engine. Valve
location, valve size (engines exceeding 4.35L) and angles must remain stock as
on the approved production heads. Intake/exhaust porting and polishing is
permitted.
4-2.4 Normal blueprint machining may be performed on the engine components. The stock
production block and cylinder heads must be used, unless an alternate has been
approved. Production bore size with a maximum of .030-inch overbore is allowed.
4-2.5 The use of titanium or ceramic engine components is prohibited except for titanium
valves and titanium valve spring retainers.
4-2.6 The following items may be replaced with aftermarket components - steel crankshaft,
steel rods, round aluminum pistons, titanium or steel valves, steel valve springs,
camshafts, cam followers, timing chain/cam drive and dry sump oil pump and
system. Replacement items must be readily available to all competitors.
4-2.7 The intake system (manifold and/or throttle body), unmodified, as on the originally
approved engine must be used.
4-2.8 Only a direct mechanical link between the throttle pedal and the engine throttle
control is permitted.
4-2.9 The exhaust is free except - Exhaust system must be of round or oval tubing and
must exit at the rear of the car, below the rear valance.
Exhaust system must remain within the perimeter of the bodywork when viewed
from above. Variable exhaust systems are prohibited.
4-2.10 Engine Air Box –The complete engine air box and/or cool air induction system to the
air box must be approved by Grand-Am.
4-3 Detailed Engine Requirements -
4-3.1 Six or eight-cylinder engines up to 3.99 L are allowed with unlimited compression and
unlimited air inlet.
Four-valve engines larger than 4.0Lto 4.35L are allowed a maximum compression
ratio of 11:1. Maximum RPM and maximum valve lift will be determined for each
engine-type and listed in detailed engine specifications. Intake air restriction may
also be required.
Four-valve engines larger than 4.35L to a maximum of 5.0L are allowed a maximum
compression ratio of 11:1 and a maximum cylinder bore of 3.720 inches. Maximum
RPM and maximum valve lift will be determined for each engine-type and listed in
detailed engine specifications. Intake air restriction may also be required.
Engines over 4.5L in displacement must run a five speed transaxle.
Two-valve engines up to 5.0L are allowed a maximum compression ratio of 11:1 and
a maximum cylinder bore of four inches. Maximum RPM and maximum valve lift
will be determined for each engine-type and listed in detailed engine specifications.
Intake air restriction may also be required.
4-3.2 All Daytona Prototype race cars must use the Grand-Am specified Bosch ECU and
wiring harness. Each entrant will be eligible to purchase one ECU,one engine
wiring harness and one chassis adapter harness at the discounted price. Spares
are available on a different price scale. Spec ECU and wiring harness’s cannot be
modified in any way.

[Rex Monaco]

The rules now say that anyone can submit an engine that meets the specs and get it approved.

Please post the rules, so we can determine the problem and find the fix.

[Bob Riebe]

And records are why 100's of entrants and major manufacturers continue to show up to Bonneville and Pikes Peak, despite the lack of live ABC tv coverage.
THere is NO spec. at Bonneville. Do not confuse regulatory- limits -with specifications; they are not the same thing, and are actually the anti-thesis of each other.

You are correct, it is the lack of being FORCED into a pigeon hole that brings cars to Bonneville.
Professional racintg has become the realms of little wannabe gods who think all will bow before their will and rules.
They are finding out that people who are forced to do x, y, or z will gladly spend their time and money else where they are not force court jesters.

[indycool]

The rules prevented Cosworth from using its CC engine in the IRL because it didn't meet specs. It prevented Cosworth from using the "Chevworth" because Chevy owned the technology.

READ Grand Am Rule 4-1.1. The only differences are the engine must be badged and there must be enough to supply half the field at a set price. And for "approval" by Grand Am, if you read it carefully, Grand Am COULD do the same thing under what it already says. Look at how NASCAR has reacted through the years when someone finds an "edge." In midseason, NASCAR has restricted cars of this or that make if they deem that the make has developed an advantage. Grand Am is positioned to do the same thing as desired. They can merely turn down an engine or cut a similar deal as the IRL has right out front.

[anthonyvop]

And Grand-Am has addressed all this. Is Grand-Am really a series full of smarter people?

A series of smart people who get ZERO media coverage and almost as little spectators.

I have been to more than one G/A race where there were more people in the Paddock than in the stands.
I have even had a prominant G/A driver admit to me that it is just a Glorified SCCA club race.

Sure the racing is close with lots of passing but the cars are Ugly(Kind of like the IRL Dallara) and Slow(Kind of Like the IRL honda powered Dallara).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Anthony..you have that right in that Grand AM has lots of side by side racing and ugly cars. That said, with the right marketing and better looking cars, they might have something.

The point is, the IRL has to let some freedom of movement vis-a-vis the engine and chassis choices. It MAY drive up costs on some levels, but if you look at how Grand AM juggles the numerous engine and chassis choices, it CAN be done. Just hope like hell someone puts in some sort of aesthetic effort into the new Indy car for the second decade of Indy Car racing. Right now, the current car looks like a throwback to the mid 80's

[anthonyvop]

Grand-Am with all it's side by side racing and the Full weight of the NASCAR marketing machine still gets no attention, fans or media.

[indycool]

Mark, I'm not sure in these economic times that "purists" like yourself -- and me, to a certain extent -- should be talking about new cars and engines and the like as the "key to the city."

CC commissioned the DP-01 at enormous cost to everyone and, to use a NASCAR expression, "blowed up."

NASCAR came up with the Car of Tomorrow, which obsoleted 700 race cars worth millions and became more costly to teams and now its teams are folding and merging to just try to stay in the game and Jayski reports that about 1,000 team members in the Charlotte area have been let go.

F1 is looking at a spec Cosworth engine just to cut costs because of the financial burden necessary just to get to an F1 grid of any consequence.

So, IMO, this ain't the time.

[nanders]

Just hope like hell someone puts in some sort of aesthetic effort into the new Indy car for the second decade of Indy Car racing. Right now, the current car looks like a throwback to the mid 80's

Looks like a 79 F1 car.

[NickFalzone]

The fact of the matter is that you're never going to please all the fans, all the time. There are always going to be trolls and those unhappy about certain aspects of the sport. Some with legit beefs, and some that just will never be happy. The new car is a necessary step to continue keeping the series fresh and up to date. Yes, there will undoubtedly be complaints about the new car, there will also be those that come out of the woodwork to defend the current car as not needing any changes. We don't hear those voices because they don't have anything to latch onto yet with their complaints. But in the big picture, this new car will likely be a solid improvement over the current, and will reinvigorate the series to some extent. The DP-01 is not a meaningful comparison. CC was going to blow up regardless of their car. And the IRL is not going to succeed or fail solely on the new car specs. It's an important part of a much larger equation.

[downtowndeco]

Pretty much agree with you. The new IRL car will come along, and some will like it, some won't.

CCWS was on the road to doom in any case but the DP01 sure sped up the trip because it forced everyone into spending a whole lot of money that they just didn't have. TG's "slow but steady" wins the race approach seems to not be such a bad strategy now.


The fact of the matter is that you're never going to please all the fans, all the time. There are always going to be trolls and those unhappy about certain aspects of the sport. Some with legit beefs, and some that just will never be happy. The new car is a necessary step to continue keeping the series fresh and up to date. Yes, there will undoubtedly be complaints about the new car, there will also be those that come out of the woodwork to defend the current car as not needing any changes. We don't hear those voices because they don't have anything to latch onto yet with their complaints. But in the big picture, this new car will likely be a solid improvement over the current, and will reinvigorate the series to some extent. The DP-01 is not a meaningful comparison. CC was going to blow up regardless of their car. And the IRL is not going to succeed or fail solely on the new car specs. It's an important part of a much larger equation.

[pits4me]

This thread makes little sense to me. It seems some people believe the IRL is a failure because it doesn't fit their vision of what a US open wheel series should be. The fact that every other US major open wheel series with a different approach has failed seems forgotten.

The IRL is a survivor. If you don't like it, go watch F5000, or CART or ChampCar. Oh that's right, you can't because those racing models failed in the US. Even the Atlantic series with its long history is just a shadow of its former self. If you want an international series, the IRL isn't it and was never presented as such.

Right now the economy is pummeling all racing series from the local short track to major series such as NASCAR where hundreds of race team personal have lost their jobs. The IRL is not immune, and if it wants to survive, it has to stick with what has worked in the past for them. If that doesn't fit your desires, well then watch something else.

I am also getting tired of the grumbling about the TV package. ABC and ESPN did a lousy job with the coverage, and contrary to the gripes of those who don't have it, Versus has almost as many households as Speed and the "lesser" ESPN stations like ESPN2 and ESPN Classic where the IRL and even NASCAR has found itself more than once. Versus is part on the biggest cable network in the US, Comcast, and has very good coverage in major metropolitan areas that the sponsors want to reach. Plus, Versus is paying to cover the IRL, a novel idea recently in US open wheel.

I don't like everything the IRL is doing / has done, but it is a survivor and I will enjoy the fact I can still watch great open wheel racing that isn't a cookie cutter copy of F1.

The Cheese has moved! The IRL could have taken some lessons from this book that came out 10 years ago. The economy is a lot worse and 200 mph billboards at Indy is not the only answer. It sounds like sponsor budgets have been slashed and the international appeal of US based open wheel done.

[pits4me]

Grand-Am with all it's side by side racing and the Full weight of the NASCAR marketing machine still gets no attention, fans or media.

You'd think the "Indy-centric" series could learn something from the "24 hours of Daytona" centric series.

[indycool]

Well, the international appeal of the IRL doesn't seem "done" to the number of drivers from countries from other than the U.S. driving in it (prompting many to say that we need more U.S. drivers), or a few of the car owners (KK, HVM, Conquest), or quite a few of the engineers and crewmen, or Dallara which makes the cars.....despite, as beachbum says, the IRL has put forth no hint of globehopping. As for learning from Grand Am, how does the 24 Hours of Daytona compare to the Indianapolis 500 in THIS country?

[Rex Monaco]

As for learning from Grand Am, how does the 24 Hours of Daytona compare to the Indianapolis 500 in THIS country?

You mean besides the 24 Hours of Daytona having more manufacturer interest?

[Rex Monaco]

The IRL is not immune, and if it wants to survive, it has to stick with what has worked in the past for them.

Stick to what? Continued subsidization? That's why the IRL has 'survived'. And that's how it's continuing to 'survive'.

It wasn't the marketplace that voted on it as being the superior product. It was the ability of the IMS to subsidize the series despite the lack of interest from the marketplace.

So how can anyone claim that it has worked, when the series has never been able to support itself on it's own? The fact that during 12 years of economic properity it couldn't support itself should tell us that the past model didn't work and something new needs to be tried.

[Rex Monaco]

.....despite, as beachbum says, the IRL has put forth no hint of globehopping.

This sounds like more than a hint to me.

I know there will be opportunities for us to do some more international outreach, whether it's through licensing or actually taking our product and creating a winter season.

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=12907

[NickFalzone]

I don't know how anyone could compare 24 Hrs of Daytona with Indy. The attendance isn't anywhere near a regular IRL race, let alone the 500. And tv ratings on Speed are barely worth mentioning. Yes, there's manufacturer interest, but as we can see that hardly means a wildly popular racing series.

[beachbum]

Stick to what? Continued subsidization? That's why the IRL has 'survived'. And that's how it's continuing to 'survive'.

It wasn't the marketplace that voted on it as being the superior product. It was the ability of the IMS to subsidize the series despite the lack of interest from the marketplace.

So how can anyone claim that it has worked, when the series has never been able to support itself on it's own? The fact that during 12 years of economic properity it couldn't support itself should tell us that the past model didn't work and something new needs to be tried.The IRL is still around. It's competitor series are not. Whatever it is doing, it is working better than the alternatives that failed.

As for the marketplace, the other series couldn't generate enough "marketplace" to survive. I liked CART and Champ Car, but neither had enough fans to support the costs. The IRL has one big "marketplace" that still draws fans and media - Indy.

ps All racing is subsidized in some way. Prize money, points funds, cheap entry fees, agreements with suppliers to give deals, whatever.

[Rex Monaco]

The IRL is still around. It's competitor series are not. Whatever it is doing, it is working better than the alternatives that failed.

AMC is gone and Chrysler is still around. Does that mean Chrysler is successful and will continue to survive?

[indycool]

Oh, Rex, get serious. The 24 Hours of Daytona vs. the Indianapolis 500? Whatever manufacturer support, you've gotta be kidding.

And so he said more international outreach. If they create it, fine. But how and what they do to do it, IMO, will be much lower priority than a U.S.-based series as an ultimate priority. And if you think that means Ansan and Zhuhai type pees into the wind to accomplish that, wait, watch, look and see...er, you ain't gonna get past "wait."

[Rex Monaco]

And if you think that means Ansan and Zhuhai type pees into the wind to accomplish that, wait, watch, look and see...er, you ain't gonna get past "wait."

You said they have given no hint. I posted the hint you missed or ignored.
Now in reply, you go right back to your anti-CC attack mode that has no connection at all to anything that I have ever said.

If you want to know what I think, then ask. But stop projecting the ideology of your old CC enemies on me.

[Rex Monaco]

Oh, Rex, get serious. The 24 Hours of Daytona vs. the Indianapolis 500? Whatever manufacturer support, you've gotta be kidding.


You mean besides the 24 Hours of Daytona having more manufacturer interest?

Honda Dallara

vs

BMW Riley, Ford Riley, Ford Doran, Lexus Riley, Pontiac Chase, Pontiac Crawford, Pontiac Fabcar, Pontiac Lola, Pontiac Riley, Porsche Crawford, Porsche Fabcar, Porsche Riley

[Chris R]

Yeah, but all those cars are even uglier than the Dallara and NOBODY goes to the races. Also, for all the hype, the Atlantics were far more interesting to watch on the same track (NJMP) imho...

So, all said and done , while Grand-Am has more manufacturer INVOLVEMENT(I am not so sure it is SUPPORT) - it is certianly no better than the IRL...

Also, we are about to find out just how bad manufacturers can be for the sport as the economy continues to falter and they withdraw support for the sport an leave it in shambles. Right now I'd like to see the modern version of the Offy or Cosworth because I think it might see the sport through these times better.....

[indycool]

No, Rex, basics. Like attendance of 275-300,000 vs. about 25,000. TV ratings of 4.7-4.9 vs. about .2-.3. THAT'S the interest I'm talking about.

You posted a hint. The deal with APEX for ethanol is a hint that the IRL has long-distance service on their phones. But that certainly doesn't mean that Loudon isn't more of a priority than Ansan or Zhuhai.

As far as even needing to be anti-CC any more, it doesn't matter. CC isn't running any more. But you criticize and snuffle about a great many things that the IRL is doing as if someone else did it better before and can do it better now. That ain't the point.

[Rex Monaco]

But that certainly doesn't mean that Loudon isn't more of a priority than Ansan or Zhuhai.

As far as even needing to be anti-CC any more, it doesn't matter. CC isn't running any more.

If CC doesn't matter, then why do you feel the need to reference Ansan or Zhuhai yet again? They aren't even European venues. And who else besides you is talking about these venues?

I showed that you that you missed TG's hint, which wasn't so much a hint as it was an clear sign that Europe is indeed on his mind. EUROPE! Not Korea or China!

So if you are going to speak (or mispeak) on TG's behalf, then at least keep up with his statements so that you are both in sync. And if you are mad that he is thinking about Europe, then criticise him and leave the me the messenger out if it.

[Rex Monaco]

No, Rex, basics. Like attendance of 275-300,000 vs. about 25,000. TV ratings of 4.7-4.9 vs. about .2-.3. THAT'S the interest I'm talking about.

I want the Indy 500 to have better ratings than NASCAR too. I just think that diverse manufacturer participation is part of the solution, while you want to defend the current money losing status quo.

[indycool]

"Licensing our brand for a European schedule" and "international outreach" do not mean that the IRL itself is looking to a European schedule. "I think you'll see a predominantly North American-based championship" doesn't, either.

You're the one who used Grand Am and the 24 Hours of Daytona as an example of successful diverse manufacturer participation. I didn't. Read your own posts.

[Rex Monaco]

You're the one who used Grand Am and the 24 Hours of Daytona as an example of successful diverse manufacturer participation. I didn't. Read your own posts.

So you're argument is that the Grand Am isn't a successful example of diverse manufacturer participation? How can you support that claim in face of the facts?

[indycool]

Attendance and ratings.

[Rex Monaco]

"I think you'll see a predominantly North American-based championship" doesn't, either.

No wonder you claimed you've seen no hints.

Here's a hint: Predominantly does not mean the same thing as completely.

Now read it again with your mind open.

"I think you'll continue to see a predominantly North American-based championship. I think 16 to 20 races for what we do now is a comfortable number. I know there will be opportunities for us to do some more international outreach, whether it's through licensing or actually taking our product and creating a winter season."

"Drivers want to drive every week and if the operating budgets and sponsorships we depend on are there I think you could see us do as many as 22, 24 races a year. Or you could see something like ALMS has done in licensing our specifications, our name and brand for a European schedule."

That's a huge hint on the direction the IRL could take for anyone willing to pay attention. Now granted, he's not a great communicator and undertsanding him requires a better than average comprehension of the English language.

But if you understand that his thought on this starts with the first sentence and ends with the last, then in between those sentences he is clearly saying that Europe has opportunites. Whether it be through adding more races to the Indycar series or by creating a winter season in Europe.

So next time TG drops a huge hint like this, please pay attention. There will be a test if I am around here.

[Rex Monaco]

Attendance and ratings.

So successful diversity in manufacturer participation is judged by track attendance and tv ratings, and not by the diverse entries in the field?

It's a very strange world in which you reside.

[Rex Monaco]

"I think you'll continue to see a predominantly North American-based championship. I think 16 to 20 races for what we do now is a comfortable number. I know there will be opportunities for us to do some more international outreach, whether it's through licensing or actually taking our product and creating a winter season."

"Drivers want to drive every week and if the operating budgets and sponsorships we depend on are there I think you could see us do as many as 22, 24 races a year. Or you could see something like ALMS has done in licensing our specifications, our name and brand for a European schedule."

There is another big hint in this statement that you will probably also completely gloss over. He's open to between 4-8 European races on the Indycar schedule if there is not a stand alone European series.

[garyshell]

So successful diversity in manufacturer participation is judged by track attendance and tv ratings, and not by the diverse entries in the field?

It's a very strange world in which you reside.


And it's an even stranger world where one would suggest the IRL would be considered successful if it's biggest race of the year drew 25,000 fans but had 4 engines and 4 chassis manufacturers in various combinations. Grand Am is an abject failure as a series and we can all thank the France family for that. They have it exactly where they want it. Your extremely narrow definition of success is laughable. What if they had a series and no one, except manufacturers, came. Oh wait, they did that it's called Grand Am.

Gary

[garyshell]

"I think you'll continue to see a predominantly North American-based championship. I think 16 to 20 races for what we do now is a comfortable number. I know there will be opportunities for us to do some more international outreach, whether it's through licensing or actually taking our product and creating a winter season."

"Drivers want to drive every week and if the operating budgets and sponsorships we depend on are there I think you could see us do as many as 22, 24 races a year. Or you could see something like ALMS has done in licensing our specifications, our name and brand for a European schedule."


There is another big hint in this statement that you will probably also completely gloss over. He's open to between 4-8 European races on the Indycar schedule if there is not a stand alone European series.

I think you are making a huge leap of faith by connecting those two statements in that way. It could just as easily, and more likely, suggest that 16-20 is their minimum comfort zone and could expand to 22 to 24, with some unspecified number, even zero, of those coming out of Europe. Notice the "OR" at the beginning of the last sentence?

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

And it's an even stranger world where one would suggest the IRL would be considered successful if it's biggest race of the year drew 25,000 fans but had 4 engines and 4 chassis manufacturers in various combinations. Grand Am is an abject failure as a series and we can all thank the France family for that. They have it exactly where they want it. Your extremely narrow definition of success is laughable. What if they had a series and no one, except manufacturers, came. Oh wait, they did that it's called Grand Am.

Gary

The IRL I hope never is "successful" like Grand Am is...but before we kick around Grand AM too much, I will point out they have numerous manufacturers involved, they have as many "name" drivers to the American public as the IRL does in some ways....and yet they don't seem to draw really well. It is a toy for the France Family to be sure, but the racing hasn't been all bad either. Lets just say it is an interesting experiment.

The IRL could be going to Europe if I take Tony George based on the parsing of his statement above by Rex and others. Then again, Tony could be just thinking out loud.

Here is why I think it is a bad idea. For the IRL to have an auxilary series in Europe, it would be predicated upon demand for another OW series in the market place and a surplus of name drivers looking for something to do. Right now the only part of the puzzle that is clear is there are venues who would welcome some dates. There is no demand from sponsors nor are there names that could be sold to the racing public for a stand alone auxiliary series racing under an IRL franchise in Europe.

A few races in Europe are only doable IF there is a way to make it pay for the series and IF they go over there and run the oval in Germany and sell the American heritage of the sport. Champ Car messed about there and did ok at Lausitzring and then LEFT...(still trying to figure THAT out) and then they did Assen, Brands Hatch , Rockingham, and Zolder. Not in that order of course but what does this tell us? It tells us they tried a few venues..never really could justify going back financially, and in the case of Brands the racing sucked.

I am thinking the IRL would maybe have some success if they marketed the series for what it is and sell the fact it isn't f1. Putting on a good show week in and week out would help but the fan over in Europe is NOT going to be too impressed by the IRL race car visually folks........

Maybe in a few years with a better looking race car this happens. Right now....no.

[indycool]

This reminds me of the start of the IRL. TG said that it would be all-oval for the foreseeable future but wouldn't rule out road racing in the DISTANT future. In the DISTANT future, it added road races, when and where it made financial and creative sense to do so.

For now, it's very clear that the IRL is U.S.-centric and TG merely comments about the future maybe bringing an overseas winter series IF someone wants to license it, etc., etc. That may happen in the DISTANT future, but like the NFL and MLB, it took a LONG time for it to make sense on a VERY limited basis. TG's comments are a long, long ways from adding eight European races to the IRL schedule.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tony is very cautious IC...is that what you are iterating? Heck, I know that and I also know that Oval only statement was his true sentiment until he realized he needed road and street venues to draw fans. Tony's view of the world often changes when it is forced upon him.

That said, I agree with you Europe would have to rate as way down the priority list. I would be more criticial of Tony if he DID leap into a European plan in the next 3 years.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

This reminds me of the start of the IRL. TG said that it would be all-oval for the foreseeable future but wouldn't rule out road racing in the DISTANT future. In the DISTANT future, it added road races, when and where it made financial and creative sense to do so.

For now, it's very clear that the IRL is U.S.-centric and TG merely comments about the future maybe bringing an overseas winter series IF someone wants to license it, etc., etc. That may happen in the DISTANT future, but like the NFL and MLB, it took a LONG time for it to make sense on a VERY limited basis. TG's comments are a long, long ways from adding eight European races to the IRL schedule.

Spin, Spin, Spin!

[indycool]

Yes, Mark, that was probably his true sentiment at the time but he didn't rule out road courses in the future.....probably because he didn't think it'd take 12 years to get back together, and possibly because some of the key car owners were road racing enthusiasts. His support at the time to get started was the oval community and that's what he stuck with. His first two road courses? -- Sears Point (Infineon) and Watkins Glen -- had no connection with CART, so he was careful there. It may well have been more of an inducement to CART teams -- something that was going on at that point to bring the sport back together -- rather than any particular need to go road racing. If he was against road racing in general, why'd he bring F1 back to this country...to audiences 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the Brickyard 400 and Indianapolis 500?

[Rex Monaco]

And it's an even stranger world where one would suggest the IRL would be considered successful if it's biggest race of the year drew 25,000 fans but had 4 engines and 4 chassis manufacturers in various combinations.

Once again Gary, you jump in with both feet and no swimsuit. Where exactly was this suggestion made?



Grand Am is an abject failure as a series and we can all thank the France family for that. They have it exactly where they want it. Your extremely narrow definition of success is laughable. What if they had a series and no one, except manufacturers, came. Oh wait, they did that it's called Grand Am.

You guys are always getting hung up on the words that you take out of context. Go back to my post and read the word success again in it's proper context and stop making a fool of yourself.

[Rex Monaco]

I think you are making a huge leap of faith by connecting those two statements in that way. It could just as easily, and more likely, suggest that 16-20 is their minimum comfort zone and could expand to 22 to 24, with some unspecified number, even zero, of those coming out of Europe. Notice the "OR" at the beginning of the last sentence?

Gary

Umm, those aren't two statements. Those are two paragraphs making a single statement. Sure he doesn't communicate very well. And sure, this him brain storming out loud on something that may or may not take place. But it is clearly on his mind.

And the "22 to 24" reference is sandwiched in between two sentences that speak directly of an international presence. And the 'or' would not magically raise this sentence out of this context. Rather the 'or' places it squarely into that context.

[Rex Monaco]

This reminds me of the start of the IRL. TG said that it would be all-oval for the foreseeable future but wouldn't rule out road racing in the DISTANT future. In the DISTANT future, it added road races, when and where it made financial and creative sense to do so.

For now, it's very clear that the IRL is U.S.-centric and TG merely comments about the future maybe bringing an overseas winter series IF someone wants to license it, etc., etc. That may happen in the DISTANT future, but like the NFL and MLB, it took a LONG time for it to make sense on a VERY limited basis. TG's comments are a long, long ways from adding eight European races to the IRL schedule.

As long as you are finally acknowledging TG's not so subtle hint, my work is done.

[Rex Monaco]

Maybe in a few years with a better looking race car this happens. Right now....no.

He starts his statement, with "In 2013..."

And I'd be very disappointed if he didn't have an ambitous 5 year plan.

[Rex Monaco]

.....despite, as beachbum says, the IRL has put forth no hint of globehopping.

And now we all agree that that they have put forth such a hint.

[Rex Monaco]

And it's an even stranger world where one would suggest the IRL would be considered successful if it's biggest race of the year drew 25,000 fans but had 4 engines and 4 chassis manufacturers in various combinations.

And no, the IRL would be considered successful if it could survive on it's own without being subsidized by the IMS. It's not.

And my claim is that it will not be successful until there is a diverse field of manufacturers at the Indy 500.

That the Grand Am has attracted diverse manufacturer particiapation, despite it's weak position in the market place, shows that someone in the Grand Am knows how to attract manufacturers without raising the costs of the sport to ALMS levels.

And every time diversity of manufacturers is mentioned on this board, the same parrots squak in unison about cost containment, cost containment, cost containment.

And yet, the Grand Am for all it's faults has been successful in containing costs while obtaining diversity.

So there is something to learn from them. I just hope that the IRL is not populated with the same close minded thinking that prevents some people here from thinking outside the oval.

[garyshell]

Once again Gary, you jump in with both feet and no swimsuit. Where exactly was this suggestion made?



You guys are always getting hung up on the words that you take out of context. Go back to my post and read the word success again in it's proper context and stop making a fool of yourself.


I did read it correctly in the first place. Which is why I said your very narrow definition of success was laughable. Sure GrandAm is a success in garnering the attention of multiple manufacturers. So what? If you can't also draw more than 25,000 spectators at your premier event, what is the point?

In the case of Grand Am, I think the point of existence is clear, France Family control.

Gary

[garyshell]

Umm, those aren't two statements. Those are two paragraphs making a single statement. Sure he doesn't communicate very well. And sure, this him brain storming out loud on something that may or may not take place. But it is clearly on his mind.

And the "22 to 24" reference is sandwiched in between two sentences that speak directly of an international presence. And the 'or' would not magically raise this sentence out of this context. Rather the 'or' places it squarely into that context.


In your mind they are a single statement. You are the one making that connection. A case can equally be made that they were two statements interpreted as I said as minimum and furture state. Again you seem to think you have a monopoly on how the written word can be interpreted.

I didn't say you were wrong, only that it took a certain leap of faith the reach the conclusion you did.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I did read it correctly in the first place. Which is why I said your very narrow definition of success was laughable.

What is laughable is your continued insistance that this is my definition of success, despite the clear facts to the contrary.

No where did I say that the Grand Am was successful. I have only stated, and I continue to state, that they have been successful in attracting diverse manufacturer participation without increasing costs to ALMS levels.

This is something that the IRL has had no success in accomplishing.

[Rex Monaco]

In your mind they are a single statement. You are the one making that connection. A case can equally be made that they were two statements interpreted as I said as minimum and furture state. Again you seem to think you have a monopoly on how the written word can be interpreted.

I didn't say you were wrong, only that it took a certain leap of faith the reach the conclusion you did.

Gary

This is not rocket science or race car engineering, it's basic English. And evidently you have yet to grasp the concept of a paragraph.

paragraph (one of several distinct subdivisions of a text intended to separate ideas; the beginning is usually marked by a new indented line)

If all the sentences were seperate, then I could see the confusion in understanding his thoughts. But they are in two paragraphs, each of them addressing with how one might best react to international opportunities.

So there is no leap of faith required to undertsand what he is saying here. The rules of the English language guide us to this understanding.

[garyshell]

I did read it correctly in the first place. Which is why I said your very narrow definition of success was laughable. Sure GrandAm is a success in garnering the attention of multiple manufacturers. So what? If you can't also draw more than 25,000 spectators at your premier event, what is the point?

In the case of Grand Am, I think the point of existence is clear, France Family control.

Gary


What is laughable is your continued insistance that this is my definition of success, despite the clear facts to the contrary.

No where did I say that the Grand Am was successful. I have only stated, and I continue to state, that they have been successful in attracting diverse manufacturer participation without increasing costs to ALMS levels.

This is something that the IRL has had no success in accomplishing.

I love how you edited my reply to remove my acknowledgment that GrandAM was successful in getting multiple manufacturers. But you conveniently ignore the point of my reply, the question: "So what?" What has getting multiple manufacturers involved done for the series? Nothing, if you look at the bottom line indicators of attendance and TV ratings. You remember those, right? They are the factors that pay the bills when you don't have a series ownership with a hidden agenda like the France family has.

I have said multiple time I agree that GrandAm has been successful in the narrow context you keep harping on. I have also said that context is without meaning or merit.

Gary

[garyshell]

This is not rocket science or race car engineering, it's basic English. And evidently you have yet to grasp the concept of a paragraph.

paragraph (one of several distinct subdivisions of a text intended to separate ideas; the beginning is usually marked by a new indented line)

If all the sentences were seperate, then I could see the confusion in understanding his thoughts. But they are in two paragraphs, each of them addressing with how one might best react to international opportunities.

So there is no leap of faith required to undertsand what he is saying here. The rules of the English language guide us to this understanding.

Loose the personal insults.

Let me ask you this, who broke this spoken quote into paragraphs? Did TG do it or did some reporter? Your entire defense of this monolithic stance is baseless unless TG wrote them as two paragraphs. Otherwise we are back to your ability to project intent based the written version of the spoken word, without the benefit of hearing that spoken word.

As I said before, I didn't say your interpretation was wrong. All I said was your dogmatic insistence that there is one and only one possible interpretation is.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I did read it correctly in the first place. Which is why I said your very narrow definition of success was laughable.

Then let's review, shall we?

Post one:

So you're argument is that the Grand Am isn't a successful example of diverse manufacturer participation? How can you support that claim in face of the facts?

And post two:

So successful diversity in manufacturer participation is judged by track attendance and tv ratings, and not by the diverse entries in the field?

It's a very strange world in which you reside.

It seems that you did not read the word 'successful' in it's context and your conclusion that this is some how my definition of success, cannot be supported by either of these posts.

[Rex Monaco]

"So what?" What has getting multiple manufacturers involved done for the series? Nothing, if you look at the bottom line indicators of attendance and TV ratings. You remember those, right? They are the factors that pay the bills when you don't have a series ownership with a hidden agenda like the France family has.

If we are going to compare attendence and TV ratings to justify or veto every idea, then we should compare NASCAR to the IRL. We can start by comparing the Daytona 500 to the Indy 500. It's not pretty.

What we have is the IRL still being unprofitable while clinging to the failed idea that being a Honda spec series in the name of cost containment will change it.

And in it is in this area, that even the Grand Am with it's lower TV ratings and it's lower attendance is able to contain costs AND attract diverse manufacturer participation.

So the IRL can't claim to have diversity and it can;t claim to have the highest rated race on TV. In fact, the Indy 500 is not even in the top 5 highest rated races on TV.

My contention is that diversity of manufacturers is what will create market interest amongst the fanboys that must be attracted to the series so that it can grow.

[Rex Monaco]

Loose the personal insults.

Let me ask you this, who broke this spoken quote into paragraphs? Did TG do it or did some reporter? Your entire defense of this monolithic stance is baseless unless TG wrote them as two paragraphs. Otherwise we are back to your ability to project intent based the written version of the spoken word, without the benefit of hearing that spoken word.

As I said before, I didn't say your interpretation was wrong. All I said was your dogmatic insistence that there is one and only one possible interpretation is.

Gary

You just changed your thought in the second paragraph, was that your intention? Because now I am confused as to what it is you are trying to communicate to me because you might not have meant for that second paragraph to be there.

Seeing as how TG's statement was posted on the Indycar website, we can be fairly certain that TG endorses the writing style as posted. If he doesn't have that much control over the content of his series website, then we have much bigger issues.

[Rex Monaco]

I have said multiple time I agree that GrandAm has been successful in the narrow context you keep harping on. I have also said that context is without meaning or merit.

Grand Am has Porsche and BMW participation. The IRL doesn't. There is some meaning and some merit there, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

[garyshell]

Rex,

I get it. You are always right. Any other interpretation of these points is wrong. How silly of me to even think there was more than one way to view things or even suggest that. I will from now on bow to you to tell us all how things are.

There are you happy now? ...shakes head...

Gary