What do you want?

[colinspooky]

Seen a lot of criticism of poor racing this season. Ignore the points system for this.

BUT. For the sake of a Brit who is seeing full seasons quite recently, what on earth do the complainers want from their races?

I see lots saying the old days were great. But I have watched a few Back in the Day on TVU now, and it appears the winner was sometimes several laps ahead of a very depleted field. Depleted from breakdowns more than wrecks too it seems.

There were some good close races too I agree. Some tracks are boring, like Pocono and New Hampshire, others are exciting.

So, if you could script a race, what would it be like?

I for one am deligtghed with the racing I have seen over the few years I have actually had a chance to see it, apart from the boring ones of course.

:(

[tstran17_88]

It would be nice to have all the drama that played out during the Homestead Craftsman Truck race every week in all three series, but the season can't end after every race.

I just wish they wouldn't always consider tweaking "the Chase" every year when it doesn't play out exactly the way they expect.

I'm hoping once the Nationwide COT is raced in 2010, that they do tweak the Cup cars to look more like them. Seems like the drivers who have tested it, like it a lot better than the Cup car. I like the fact the car is still using a spoiler and not a wing...save the wings for open wheel.

[Fred Basset]

I for one am deligtghed with the racing I have seen over the few years
:(


The COT ruined Nascar....
The chase ruined Nascar

The only good thing that happened is that even with Hendricks power, Jnr proved that he still has no talent :up:

[muggle not]

The COT ruined Nascar....
The chase ruined Nascar

The only good thing that happened is that even with Hendricks power, Jnr proved that he still has no talent :up:
43 cars are in the field. Jr finished in the top 12.

[Fred Basset]

Exactly, no talent!! He finished 12th.. How many wins in the last 4 years and where was he in the points at the end of last season?

[muggle not]

What is ther, 5 active drivers that have more wins than Jr. Jr even has more wins than Kenseth, course that's no big deal :)

[harvick#1]

The COT ruined Nascar....
The chase ruined Nascar

The only good thing that happened is that even with Hendricks power, Jnr proved that he still has no talent :up:

agree,
agree,
:rotflmao: totally agree :D



Nascar took all its tradition away and went for the new fols instead of keeping history. give the Southern 500 back to Darlington for pete's sake. dump the chase, it would've had a better title race if there was no chase, the Cot Needs to be tweaked. Helton and France need to step down.

time to go back to the old ways were there were no "debris" cautions, when was the last time a race went caution free "2001". Nascar needs to stop scripting the races and just let the drivers go at it, dump the silly rules like the LD and let the guys race back to the line, also get rid of the yellow line rule at Dega and Daytona. go back to 2-day qualifing, to let the teams qualify instead of the annual rain-out.

[muggle not]

agree,
agree,
:rotflmao: totally agree :D
Nascar took all its tradition away and went for the new fols instead of keeping history. give the Southern 500 back to Darlington for pete's sake. dump the chase, it would've had a better title race if there was no chase, the Cot Needs to be tweaked. Helton and France need to step down.

time to go back to the old ways were there were no "debris" cautions, when was the last time a race went caution free "2001". Nascar needs to stop scripting the races and just let the drivers go at it, dump the silly rules like the LD and let the guys race back to the line, also get rid of the yellow line rule at Dega and Daytona. go back to 2-day qualifing, to let the teams qualify instead of the annual rain-out.
Agree with most of yopur post. btw, Harvick is now one of my favorites.

point.....Hendricks had 4 drivers this year, only 2 had any wins.

[RaceFanStan]

.....
The only good thing that happened is that even with Hendricks power, Jr proved that he still has no talent :up:

Exactly, no talent!! He finished 12th.. How many wins in the last 4 years and where was he in the points at the end of last season?
I have to disagree.
Using the "classic" points system Dale Jr finished 7th ...
even though he is credited with 12th in the chase ...
10 races DON'T make a season, a season consists of 36 races ...
in 36 races Dale Jr got 1 win, 10 top 5's & 16 top 10's ...
plus he made $4,611,290 not counting any points money for 12th ...
I'm sure that some drivers envy those results. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[call_me_andrew]

Seen a lot of criticism of poor racing this season. Ignore the points system for this.

BUT. For the sake of a Brit who is seeing full seasons quite recently, what on earth do the complainers want from their races?

I see lots saying the old days were great. But I have watched a few Back in the Day on TVU now, and it appears the winner was sometimes several laps ahead of a very depleted field. Depleted from breakdowns more than wrecks too it seems.

There were some good close races too I agree. Some tracks are boring, like Pocono and New Hampshire, others are exciting.

So, if you could script a race, what would it be like?

I for one am deligtghed with the racing I have seen over the few years I have actually had a chance to see it, apart from the boring ones of course.

:(

I want the field to break down! People mention that 75 cars started the first Southern 500, but what they should mention is that only one third of the field actually finished. And I think that's a good thing! The whole point of a 500 mile race is that the average car can not survive 500 miles of racing.

Pocono was a great track before the gear rule. ARCA manages to show that. New Hampshire was a great track before that sealer went on it.

The main issues I have are technophobia and excessive parity. I firmly believe that fuel injection would lower operating costs in the long run, yet NASCAR doesn't want to risk traction control appearing. In fact, I've noticed that everytime fuel injection is mentioned, a NASCAR spokesman will automatically compare it to traction control and point to a late 90's F1 parade. This phenomenon shall hence forth be called, Silicon Scare.

Parity seems to be causing more wrecks these days. Since all the cars (theoretically) have the same ideal setup and top speed, they just can't drive away from each other. They're in close quarters when they shouldn't be. Before the COT and common templates, there were at least some handicapps. These were difficult to enforce and highly political, but they made for better racing. It is far more interesting to watch different cars run well together than it is to see the same car racing against itself. It's like comparing ALMS to Harrison Bergeron.

My ideal race has an average speed within 15% of the pole speed, has two radically different cars competing for the win, and only needs one lead change between each set of pit stops.

[tstran17_88]

What is ther, 5 active drivers that have more wins than Jr. Jr even has more wins than Kenseth, course that's no big deal :) It’s my opinion that Joonyer didn’t have any wins this year. Nascar threw him a bone at Michigan. I was at that race and saw a lot more than was shown on tv. Nor is it the first time that Nascar has thrown the "Chosen One" a bone as well...gotta keep dem rednecks happy & spending der money on Bud and tickets!

[djhany]

good question ... its better to look back, almost everytime the past time is better then the reality u feel at the moment, your brain modify your memories and save only the good ones, otherwise you´d commit suicide at 20 hehe

so its easier to say "way back it was better", fact is, it wasnt, u only look at it as it was ...

... anyway :cool:

i agree with you people,

plz no more "debris-cautions", chase for the cup its good thing - but as one of u wrote, its 36race season not 10, and so on

but ... still, NASCAR points system is still the most "fair-play" i think, and u can bet there will be more and more "debris cautions", u know NHL ? :D

[colinspooky]

your brain modify your memories and save only the good ones


so its easier to say "way back it was better", fact is, it wasnt, u only look at it as it was ...



Spot on, I feel.


Also, not sure about your problems with debris cautions - it would look pretty bad if a chunk of metal was thrown up by a tyre (tire) and tossed into the crowd - unlikely, but what if. They do close the field up again, and we all know the start of the race is the best bit, so getting lots of starts must be fun, if sitting through the yellows is not. But that's when you get the ice cream

[djhany]

yep yep, good point of view :) and u r right of course

... buuuuuuuuuuuut there r two kinds of "debris-cautions" id say. the one u wrote about above - there´s actual danger of whatever

... the other ones seems to be kinda artificial, piece of rubber on the apron ... it doesnt matter what we think, its simply another chance to take a three minutes long commecrial break hehe, its gonna be maybe more often than now-known "debris-caution" ... i mentioned NHL ... players dont play during the break. drivers dont race during the break = debris-caution :vader:

my opinion thats all, no offence of course :s mokin:

anyway, start/re-start is the right spice

[carracing]

Wow - all this discussion on Jr. and I now remember WHY the off-season can be such a relief... but only IF you keep it B.S. free. I love all these armchair critics of drivers on a personal/professional level - claiming no-talent with no insight as to the situation, personal growth or anything going on behind the scenes.

Not a Jr. fan myself but geez - would be nice to see people stay off his back for awhile. Give him a chance to come into his own. The kid's got talent - anyone can see that - he just needs time to breathe and room to grow. Looking forward to see what he does with season 2 at Hendricks.

[call_me_andrew]

Here's a good example of what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8P6ra3qlsY

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Family France & Helton have managed to "Dumb Down" NA$CAR, losing fans along the way.

1. The COT proved to be a mistake.
Put "Stock Cars" back into "Stock Car Racing".

2. The "Chase"... turned into a fiasco.
This was Brian France's attempt to keep viewers after the beginning of Football season.

3. Stealth debris flags to bunch up the field, another mistake.
When TV cameras can't even "find the debris that causes the caution yellow",something's dreadfully wrong.

4. Change the points system to award winning races.
It's gotten to be an endurance contest... gotta finish to "make the chase".

5. Share the "Wealth"... NA$CAR's stolen sponsors from teams to enrich themselves.

[dj420]

Here's a good example of what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8P6ra3qlsY

Indeed...it seems NASCAR was more fun to watch when it wasn't as "popular"

[dj420]

:dozey: Family France & Helton have managed to "Dumb Down" NA$CAR, losing fans along the way.

1. The COT proved to be a mistake.
Put "Stock Cars" back into "Stock Car Racing".

2. The "Chase"... turned into a fiasco.
This was Brian France's attempt to keep viewers after the beginning of Football season.

3. Stealth debris flags to bunch up the field, another mistake.
When TV cameras can't even "find the debris that causes the caution yellow",something's dreadfully wrong.

4. Change the points system to award winning races.
It's gotten to be an endurance contest... gotta finish to "make the chase".

5. Share the "Wealth"... NA$CAR's stolen sponsors from teams to enrich themselves.
Agree with all, espicially #5; if NASCAR didn't need an "Official NASCAR Potato Chip" ;) , then maybe those companies would seek out teams to sponsor to get on the NASCAR bandwagon

[colinspooky]

:dozey: Family France & Helton have managed to "Dumb Down" NA$CAR, losing fans along the way.

1. The COT proved to be a mistake.
Put "Stock Cars" back into "Stock Car Racing".

2. The "Chase"... turned into a fiasco.
This was Brian France's attempt to keep viewers after the beginning of Football season.

3. Stealth debris flags to bunch up the field, another mistake.
When TV cameras can't even "find the debris that causes the caution yellow",something's dreadfully wrong.

4. Change the points system to award winning races.
It's gotten to be an endurance contest... gotta finish to "make the chase".

5. Share the "Wealth"... NA$CAR's stolen sponsors from teams to enrich themselves.


Dumb down? Just don't get it, really sorry. I watched that North Wilks vid someone posted - looked ok - looked like pretty much any other race at Rich or Martins. Nothing wrong with it - just a race with a debris caution.

1 COT was a mistake? Still don't see it. Different car, looks pretty much the same, things move on in all sports.

2 Why is the chase a fiasco? Wasn't there some statistic banded about when it was introduced saying pretty much no one outside the top dozen or so at this point in past seasons have ever won the title. So what difference does it make - just makes everyone try harder during the first part of the season, and that has to benefit the racing.

3 Stealth debris cautions? Don't remember too many of these. And a bunched field is a good field in my opinion. Didn't some of the winners in the 60s and 70s eventually win some races by several laps? Not very close racing.

4 Well, the first part is just not English. Got to finish to make the chase. OK, sounds fair enough - who wants races with half the field missing.

5 Don't understand. The ruling body takes sponsors away from teams, and makes the companies give them money instead of the teams? You what? That sounds bizarre. How true is this? Examples? Libel?

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

:dozey: Family France & Helton have managed to "Dumb Down" NA$CAR, losing fans along the way.

1. The COT proved to be a mistake.
Put "Stock Cars" back into "Stock Car Racing".

2. The "Chase"... turned into a fiasco.
This was Brian France's attempt to keep viewers after the beginning of Football season.

3. Stealth debris flags to bunch up the field, another mistake.
When TV cameras can't even "find the debris that causes the caution yellow",something's dreadfully wrong.

4. Change the points system to award winning races.
It's gotten to be an endurance contest... gotta finish to "make the chase".

5. Share the "Wealth"... NA$CAR's stolen sponsors from teams to enrich themselves.

Gotta say i agree with most of that.

1. I dont really mind the COT but they have got to give the teams some room in the rules to work.

2. The chase just aint racing.

3. NASCAR has got ontop of this. Ever since Stewart and a couple of others called them out.

4. This is the single most change NASCAR needs to make. If a driver knows theres a 50pt difference between 1st and 2nd hes gonna go balls out to try and get that first spot and not just lay back and be content with 2nd.

5. I dont know how much this goes on. You would like to think that if a company approached NASCAR to become say the official "product of NASCAR" that they would say "Look heres Teresa Earnhardt, her cars need sponsors badly."

[Fred Basset]

5. I dont know how much this goes on....." inappropiate post was edited
Do you think as this is a family forum there is actually any point in making that final comment as you have?

[call_me_andrew]

Indeed...it seems NASCAR was more fun to watch when it wasn't as "popular"

NASCAR was already plenty popular at the time. In fact it was growing in popularity faster in the U.S. than any other sport. It was after the popularity came that things went downhill.

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

Do you think as this is a family forum there is actually any point in making that final comment as you have?

Yes, It was Bloody funny.

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

NASCAR was already plenty popular at the time. In fact it was growing in popularity faster in the U.S. than any other sport. It was after the popularity came that things went downhill.

This is the strange thing. Heres a formula that works. Attendence is record breaking, sponsors flocking etc. So they decide to change everything. Attendence was down way before the credit crunch hit. It can be difficult to guage from this side of the pond what the general public think over there.

[Fred Basset]

Yes, It was Bloody funny.

Disagree.. thought it was rude and vulgar.. try a little harder next time

[Fred Basset]

It can be difficult to guage from this side of the pond what the general public think over there.

People are losing interest in Nascar fast.. thats what we think over here hence season tickets are not being renewed. Hopefully this year with the smaller attendances forecast Nascar may at last realise that they need to put it back like it was

[willracefan]

nascar needs to go back to the old points. and no i dont like a 50 pt difference between first and second. notice the race hogs already with the current chase. just go back to the old fashioned points system period. we would still be complaining if kyle busch, jimmie johnson and carl edwards were benefitting from it.

nascar also needs to start the single file restart with 25 to go on 1.5 milers and 1 milers, 20 to go on 2.5 and 50 to go on short tracks.

those are the two most important changes.

[colinspooky]

we would still be complaining if kyle busch, jimmie johnson and carl edwards were benefitting from it.

nascar also needs to start the single file restart with 25 to go on 1.5 milers and 1 milers, 20 to go on 2.5 and 50 to go on short tracks.



First point. eh? Surely those that finish well ALL THE TIME will benefit from whatever points system you invent, unless you reward them in a random manner like 20 for first, 19 for second, 65 for third, 109 for fourth, 12 for fifth, 654 for sixth......... etc.

All the time the points are reduced for coming further down the field, the ones in the top positions will always benefit.



Second point. I like the mixed up field - adds to the drama.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It’s my opinion that Joonyer didn’t have any wins this year. Nascar threw him a bone at Michigan. I was at that race and saw a lot more than was shown on tv. Nor is it the first time that Nascar has thrown the "Chosen One" a bone as well...gotta keep dem rednecks happy & spending der money on Bud and tickets!
\
You want to see the Rednecks happy? Why hasn't Jooyner won the championship already if the damned thing is fixed?

You can of course prove Jr. was given Michigan? Right....of course not.

Now onto more intelligent thoughts. The top 35 points crap is the only real issue I see that is just out of touch with reality. The crap that went on since New Year's with these "mergers" so guys who were out of the top 35 are back IN the top 35 and therefore guarnteed starting spots in the first 5 races ( A huge step in staying in that top 35, just ask anyone who lost starts due to the rain..helllooo Patrick Carpentier!!!) NASCAR shouldn't have allowed all that charade of mergers and shared points to go on this offseason but as per usual underestimated the ability of teams to read and interpret the rules to their own benefit and NASCAR let them.

Debris cautions seem like a joke and likely are a joke at some venues but with the COT I haven't seen too many races that were walk aways either requiring them.

As it has been stated more than once, these ARE the good old days in terms of the level of competition. Only Andrew could find fault with this ( too many crashes because the cars are equal.....ummm DUHHH THAT is close racing!)

When you have 22 cars that could win on any given weekend, that is excellent racing. I am simply amazed at all the whining and moaning that goes on about NASCAR by people who say it is all wrong, Helton should be canned with France and yet they keep on watching. Obviously that Brian France didn't fool you eh...you kept watching!!!

I have my criticisms with some things from time to time, but in this last year I really got an appreciation for just what has been done with this sport. Is it perfect? No...but I can tell you this much. Only one other form of racing on the planet has the reach and power of NASCAR and it is a damned boring parade a lot of weeks. Some screw up.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

People are losing interest in Nascar fast.. thats what we think over here hence season tickets are not being renewed. Hopefully this year with the smaller attendances forecast Nascar may at last realise that they need to put it back like it was

The recession and 4 dollar plus a gallon gas didn't have ANYTHING to do with this right? oh...they did? Explain why TV ratings went up then?

[wedge]

I have my criticisms with some things from time to time, but in this last year I really got an appreciation for just what has been done with this sport. Is it perfect? No...but I can tell you this much. Only one other form of racing on the planet has the reach and power of NASCAR and it is a damned boring parade a lot of weeks. Some screw up.....

Hear!

Hear!

:up:

I actually very surprised that some races on the cookie cutters were not the usual borefests last year.

Remember when they first turned up at Dover in the COT bitching and moaning that they couldn't pass? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8EypoqfZIM

[Mark in Oshawa]

I remember the first Dover was a snore and the second one was likely the best race all year!

The funny thing is people keep saying the COT is not a good race car on the intermediates. Well the "twisted sister" was WORSE and while aeropush is a problem, it is not nearly as bad as it was. Give these guys a year or so more and they will coax a lot of the bad traits this car has out. To those who think I am out to lunch on this, I was one of the few who didn't want the COT. I have done a 180 mainly because I understand now where the old car had issues and the 2008 was one of the best I can remember....

[Fred Basset]

\
You want to see the Rednecks happy? Why hasn't Jooyner won the championship already if the damned thing is fixed?





Because he's crap and couldn't win a race if he was the only car in it :)
Has anyone got less talent than him?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ya Fred, that Hendrick guy always gives rides to people with no talent. That Jimmie Johnson? waste of time. Jeff Gordon? Bigger waster of time. You really think before you climb on to your high horse?

Jr has won 7 superspeedway races in his career, second only to his Dad and Jeff Gordon. He has won races on flat tracks, he has been very competitive on short tracks and out of the current drivers, he only has less wins then I believe 4 of them. He hasn't won a championship. Well big hairy deal, Mark Martin hasn't either and no one would say he isn't one of the best drivers of all time. Jr may not be the best driver day in and day out, but I would wager he is better than most. He has some room for growth to from being a good driver to a great driver. That is about all that is left. To win one of these races is tough. To have 18 in a career you have to have talent, sorry....

[Fred Basset]

how many races has he won in the last 3 years?

[muggle not]

Jr was driving crap in his last 2 years with DEI as they were going down the tubes and Teresa didn't know how to run the team.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fred here is a clue. The man is 33. No one is washed up at 33. Here is another clue. Show me a racing series where the team wasn't a factor. Last year he was with a top flight team for the first time in years. DEI didn't have what it took to win and that is WHY he wanted out. Last year he had two or three instances where he was in position to win when fate caught him out ( such as late in the 600 when a tire blew 30 laps from the finish) and he won at Michigan. Jeff Gordon didn't win last year. Would you suggest he sucks too?

Jr. isnt the best driver in NASCAR, I will say that, but I would still put him in the top 10 easily. On superspeedways he is one of the best. PERIOD. It isn't just me saying that, his fellow competitors such as Tony Stewart say he is one of the best drivers in the draft. Hardly washed up....

[Fred Basset]

Jr was driving crap in his last 2 years with DEI as they were going down the tubes and Teresa didn't know how to run the team.

how many races did the "chosen one" win last year for the best team and with the best equipment?

Seriously, you Jnr lovers need to realise he is not the god you seem to think he is. If he spent a little less time recording commercials (he recorded 5 seperate ones in Jan) and spent a little more time learning how to race, he might get somewhere. He's the "Dancia Patrick" of Nascar :laugh:

[philipbain]

how many races did the "chosen one" win last year for the best team and with the best equipment?

Seriously, you Jnr lovers need to realise he is not the god you seem to think he is. If he spent a little less time recording commercials (he recorded 5 seperate ones in Jan) and spent a little more time learning how to race, he might get somewhere. He's the "Dancia Patrick" of Nascar :laugh:

I agree about Jr., his dad was a NASCAR god but Jr. has largely made a living and gained his massive fan base on the back of his father's legend which was cemented forever by the nature of his death, its morbid but absolutely true. Not to say that Jr. isnt a competitive driver but his fan base is massively disproportionate to his level of talent, drivers such as Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards among others are obviously far more gifted as drivers yet garner less attention, though it has to be hoped that support for both of them is increasing all the time.

[tstran17_88]

Now onto more intelligent thoughts.You have those?

...would have never guessed it reading through the rambling posts!

[Mark in Oshawa]

tstran...now that is nasty and maybe somewhat justified...but some like my posts...don't really matter does it? If you disapprove, you can ignore me....

Of course this board has been dying for some time. Since I wasn't here for the better part of a year, I would have to say it isn't my doing that postings are not as great as they were a year ago. The whole point of one of these boards is opinions......so to ask someone to stop giving them is counterintuitive...

[muggle not]

I agree about Jr., his dad was a NASCAR god but Jr. has largely made a living and gained his massive fan base on the back of his father's legend which was cemented forever by the nature of his death, its morbid but absolutely true. Not to say that Jr. isnt a competitive driver but his fan base is massively disproportionate to his level of talent, drivers such as Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards among others are obviously far more gifted as drivers yet garner less attention, though it has to be hoped that support for both of them is increasing all the time.
Popularity isn't based on how many wins you have. A lot of it is based on how you conduct yourself. (maybe i should take that back or Edwards would be pretty popular for threatening to "pop" Kenseth one.) :D

Everyone has choice as to which driver they like, it isn't based on wins or Championships.

[Fred Basset]

Popularity isn't based on how many wins you have. A lot of it is based on how you conduct yourself. (maybe i should take that back or Edwards would be pretty popular for threatening to "pop" Kenseth one.) :D

Everyone has choice as to which driver they like, it isn't based on wins or Championships.


:rolleyes:


Or who your daddy was.. try that as a reason...

[Mark in Oshawa]

:rolleyes:


Or who your daddy was.. try that as a reason...


Ya see Fred, what you fail to understand is not everyone who is a Junior fan was a fan of his old man. I for one wasn't. I am a Junior fan for the way he carries himself, his work with charities, and the outspoken way he deals with the press and other drivers. He isn't a suck up or a corporate shill nor does he have any phoney bones in his body.

Now I am often embarassed by some of the Jr. fans in the Junior nation and I do agree guys like Edwards and Busch have flown under the radar but so has Jimmie Johnson who won 3 championships. It is what it is. Bill Elliot and DW were the most popular driver often when they were NOT winning races. It is personality driven, and Carl can be often a little phoney sounding, Jimmie is dull and Shrub ticks people off. All are great guys and so is Jr. but Jr. gets more attention from the people who cheered on his dad. You blame him for THAT?

[muggle not]

:rolleyes:


Or who your daddy was.. try that as a reason...
LMAO

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for him filming 5 commercials in January, ummm it isn't like he could go test anywhere was it? When should he do commercials? The season starts now and runs til November. Cheap shot Fred.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Popularity isn't based on how many wins you have. A lot of it is based on how you conduct yourself. (maybe i should take that back or Edwards would be pretty popular for threatening to "pop" Kenseth one.) :D

Everyone has choice as to which driver they like, it isn't based on wins or Championships.

It is whether you come off as a real normal guy. Busch always sounds cockey, Edwards comes off as very corporate at times, and so on and so forth. Jr sounds like one of the guys you would drink beer with and play a game of pickup softball with. Guys popping people do get some new fans (JPM gained a few when he ran the Shrub around at New Hampshire) and I do remember Jimmy Spencer was a hero for reaching in a car and giving Kurt Busch a knuckle sandwich. The key of popularity is being real.....or I suppose....sigh having Dale Sr. as your dad. That said, I think Jr. is his own man....

[muggle not]

It is whether you come off as a real normal guy. Busch always sounds cockey, Edwards comes off as very corporate at times, and so on and so forth. Jr sounds like one of the guys you would drink beer with and play a game of pickup softball with. Guys popping people do get some new fans (JPM gained a few when he ran the Shrub around at New Hampshire) and I do remember Jimmy Spencer was a hero for reaching in a car and giving Kurt Busch a knuckle sandwich. The key of popularity is being real.....or I suppose....sigh having Dale Sr. as your dad. That said, I think Jr. is his own man....
Jr is, for sure, his own man, and a good one at that. He treats his people right.

[tstran17_88]

tstran...now that is nasty and maybe somewhat justified...True & true. And I always say an "eye for an eye"...especially if you're going to take a shot at a post I made over two months ago. Along with myself, not too many people go back that far to check up on a thread! No hard feelings! :D