This is real depressing

[mlj]

This is looking really bad for the Series, read the full report by Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com

Posted on AR1

IndyCar picture looks bleak for 2009 As predicted, the results of the IndyCar Versus TV deal is beginning to take effect as a large number of drivers are out of a ride for 2009 unless something breaks sponsor-wise, which they won't because of the Versus TV deal and the anticipated plunge in TV ratings.

According to this SPEEDTV.com article the following drivers may be on the sidelines next year:

1. Justin Wilson appears to be out of a ride at Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing.
2. Will Power will almost certainly be out because of the loss of the Surfers race.
3. Power's KV Racing teammate Oriol Servia has no sponsor as well.
4. With the fallacy of ethanol finally rearing its ugly head, Ryan Hunter-Reay's ethanol sponsorship is on this ice.
5. Throw in Paul Tracy, Bruno Junqueira, Tomas Scheckter and Darren Manning and the IndyCar grid could be down to 18 cars again in 2010.

[NickFalzone]

I was going to argue that's a cynical take on things, but can't really offer much. It is looking like a smaller field, probably 22 cars at this point. But things can change between now and March. I would be surprised if at least 2 of those listed above were not back for a full season. But beyond that... not promising. You can blame it on the IRL, on the economy, on VS, or whatever. Fact is that it's a little of all those and even NASCAR is in the midst of mergers, cutting out testing, etc. That said, the merger could not have come at a better time. With 2 competing AOW series right now, we'd be looking at disaster. And perhaps by the time the new car comes around, things will look brighter.

[F1boat]

The prediction if 18 cars for 2010. I hope that by mid 2009 the economic crisis will be gone and things will start to look brighter.

[Damon]

It's November 13th, let's wait and see where we are when the first open test for all the teams takes place to see how many cars/drivers show up then before everybody has a meltdown about how bad things are going to be in 2009 as far as the car count.

[MAX_THRUST]

If this is the case then it just proves how much damage has been caused the last 13 years.

As I can't watch the IRL in the UK without paying sky thats alot of virewers gone in Europe, and now the US. I haven't seen anything other than a 1 hour highlight show the series may as well already be dead.

I'm sure more will turn up next year, or more teams will merge.

As I can't watch the IRL in the UK without paying sky thats alot of virewers gone in Europe

How do you work that out?

The IRL has been on Sky Sports since 1996, a pay-to-view channel. Those who were already watching the IRL pre-merger were doing just what they do now....paying to watch.

Given that, who was watching before who wasn't paying?

How can you lose something which, by definition, you never had?

[Chris R]

We need to break this doom and gloom cycle. This is 90% economy and that in an of itself is plenty of doom and gloom for me. The merger puts AOWR n a better position ot deal with the economic downturn then it was pre-merger. Also, as the owner of a small business, I do not think there was a whole lot of planning to be done for this economy so I do not think it is fair to blame the IRL. Let's face it - some companies that were very well regarded only a couple of years ago are on the verge of going broke and at least some of them were actually run reasonably well....

AOWR will survive - it might not be pretty but it will get through.....

[downtowndeco]

Thank you. A voice of reason!


We need to break this doom and gloom cycle. This is 90% economy and that in an of itself is plenty of doom and gloom for me. The merger puts AOWR n a better position ot deal with the economic downturn then it was pre-merger. Also, as the owner of a small business, I do not think there was a whole lot of planning to be done for this economy so I do not think it is fair to blame the IRL. Let's face it - some companies that were very well regarded only a couple of years ago are on the verge of going broke and at least some of them were actually run reasonably well....

AOWR will survive - it might not be pretty but it will get through.....

[The instant classic]

And this is why the unification sholud have never happen, but if now half of them are out of rides, what was the point of the unification?

for the ones out there, like me, that know wrestling, this is just like, when the wwf bout out wcw, it seem all great, but it didnt work,
but if you dont have the main champcar guys, that are fans favorites, those champcar fans i dont think will watch,
i do understand that all racing is hurting heck look at nascar, thats sad to see this one time proud racing, hurting for sponsors, but nascar has done a great job at keeping the money makers, TG and other owners of indycar, really need to keep, Justin Wilson,Will Power and others, cuz im sure F1 or nascar wolud be happy to grab them, i know its hard to find cars and sponsers, then make indycar sponsers the cars, rember when winston was sponsring cars for nascar?

[JasonD]

...TG and other owners of indycar, really need to keep, Justin Wilson,Will Power and others, cuz im sure F1 or nascar wolud be happy to grab them...

What are you talking about? Do you really think NASCAR teams are lining up to sign Justin Wilson?

No F1 or NASCAR team will touch an indycar driver right now. F1 has enough drivers to go around and NASCAR has enough struggling teams with an experienced tin-top driver that they dont need an OW guy to come in... and... well... TANK like almost all of the other guys have.

[The instant classic]

if nascar was smart to take Justin Wilson,
nascar vs indycar vs indycar, thats the racing fight, and to grab any drivers you can, is great, was it great for nascar to get sam and dario? yes for sure, did it work? no we all know that, but they got them away from indycar, was is great for nascar to get Juan Pablo Montoya for sure, all racing is struggling but to be the best, you need top drivers,

[beachbum]

We need to break this doom and gloom cycle. This is 90% economy and that in an of itself is plenty of doom and gloom for me. The merger puts AOWR n a better position ot deal with the economic downturn then it was pre-merger. Also, as the owner of a small business, I do not think there was a whole lot of planning to be done for this economy so I do not think it is fair to blame the IRL. Let's face it - some companies that were very well regarded only a couple of years ago are on the verge of going broke and at least some of them were actually run reasonably well....

AOWR will survive - it might not be pretty but it will get through.....Very good points. I think it is interesting how all of the old champ car fans are trotting this out as an example what is wrong with the IRL. Everyone wants to point fingers and blame this or that. But it is the economy - period

Racing is a business, and lives off the spending of other businesses. With the economy in the condition it is, there is going to be a lot of pain in many industries, and motor sports is just one affected industry. Even teams in the 1000 lb gorilla that is N-car are facing serious financial troubles with teams merging, many race team employees losing their jobs, and a number of teams probably going away. If anything, AOWR may be better positioned as the costs are lower. Some will argue that the marketing ROI isn't as good, but the cost to get and stay involved is a lot less.

[vintage]

If this economic meltdown had happened without the merger, we would have either had no AOWR next year, or Tony and KK would have had to support 90% of the field in both series.

As it is, the teams are in better shape than they were previously to be able to ride this out.

[SarahFan]

the economy is bad...


doesn't make the thread title any less accurate!!!!!!

[BobGarage]

How do you work that out?

The IRL has been on Sky Sports since 1996, a pay-to-view channel. Those who were already watching the IRL pre-merger were doing just what they do now....paying to watch.

Given that, who was watching before who wasn't paying?

How can you lose something which, by definition, you never had?

in terms of AOWR it has lost viewership in the UK, acording to the figures on BARB's website.

Viewing figures for the IRL were around the 30,000 mark this year (60,000 ish for indy). Thats is an increase for the IRL in the UK of around 10,000 viewers on last year.

HOWEVER

Champcar had viewing figures of 100,000 on motors TV a few years ago. (BARB doesn't list Eurosport 2 figures so we don't know what the figures were after CC returned to the channel.)

from that you can assume that the merger brought in an extra 10,000 viewers for the IRL from CC.

Even if the 30,000 IRL viewers pre merger were also Champ Car viewers, that still leaves 60,000 peoplewho were watching AOWR before the merger which are now not. Thats a big loss in viewership for AOWR in general in the UK.



oh, and on a side note, if you look at NASCARs viewing figures for the UK, they regularly get less than 30,000 (daytona and talladega races excluded)

[garyshell]

the economy is bad...


doesn't make the thread title any less accurate!!!!!!

Maybe not, but it certainly does mitigate the ridiculous arguments about how this was a reason that the unification never should have happened. Can you imagine what the sponsorship issues would have been for two separate series in this economic environment.


Gary

[Bob Riebe]

I hate to say it but I hope the IRL does collapse.
Indy will still be run no matter what (unless Mr. George IS totally incompetent) but racing had a big spill in the early seventies but the late seventies and early eighties were excellant.

The people racing during or after a economy problem will be the ones who truly LOVE automobiles and racing, and do it because of that love, not money or greed.

[Bob Riebe]

You do realize, of course, that if the IRL were to fold then there would be no teams to contest the I500. American OW would be dead forever with zero chance of any revival.
OH I am quite sure that teams would find the money to chase the Indy prize money.
As I said, I doubt, even Mr. George could screw up the Indy 500, he would simply run it as the ultimate outlaw race.

[garyshell]

I hate to say it but I hope the IRL does collapse.
Indy will still be run no matter what (unless Mr. George IS totally incompetent) but racing had a big spill in the early seventies but the late seventies and early eighties were excellant.

The people racing during or after a economy problem will be the ones who truly LOVE automobiles and racing, and do it because of that love, not money or greed.

If the ICS were to collapse, who do you expect to run the Indy 500?

So, your answer is for all of the folks who make a living as mechanics, crews, transport drivers, janitors, secretaries, cooks etc. to al loose their jobs and then do those same jobs for free because they love racing. Gee, how benevolent of you. Are you willing to give up YOUR job and join their ranks?

Gary

[garyshell]

OH I am quite sure that teams would find the money to chase the Indy prize money.
As I said, I doubt, even Mr. George could screw up the Indy 500, he would simply run it as the ultimate outlaw race.


Really, you think someone can just set up a team and all of the ancillary support workers for just one race? How are you going to attract the talent you need if they will only be gainfully employed for, what, the month of May. Or maybe April and May. Yep, that will happen.

You keep forgetting this is a BUSINESS. Write a business plan that has this two month scope and even if you could find the funding, you have to figure out the procurement of staffing. Let's see that BUSINESS plan, if you are so "sure that teams would find the money to chase the Indy prize money."

Gary

[JasonD]

if nascar was smart to take Justin Wilson,
nascar vs indycar vs indycar, thats the racing fight, and to grab any drivers you can, is great, was it great for nascar to get sam and dario? yes for sure, did it work? no we all know that, but they got them away from indycar, was is great for nascar to get Juan Pablo Montoya for sure, all racing is struggling but to be the best, you need top drivers,

and NONE of those guys are top drivers IN NASCAR or F1 so there is ZERO chance of any NASCAR or F1 team picking up ANY of those guys.

[Livewireshock]

I hate to say it but I hope the IRL does collapse.
Indy will still be run no matter what (unless Mr. George IS totally incompetent) but racing had a big spill in the early seventies but the late seventies and early eighties were excellant.

The people racing during or after a economy problem will be the ones who truly LOVE automobiles and racing, and do it because of that love, not money or greed.

If there is no money to run the series, there is no money to run a single race. Indy 500 is not immune to all of this.

If the series folds, the cars could well go the way of the Panoz cars, used in another series, probably well away from the USA. In the UAE or in China, where the crisis is not hurting as much as elsewhere.

With no cars, what are you going to race? With what rules and who is going to oversee it all.

If it is to expensive to buy a customer chassis and engine at the moment, it would be impossible to build one off racing specials for a single race. The best drivers would not be available because they are contracted to other race series and only half rate pay-for-my-ride drivers will appear. Parity between cars would be a joke and the racing even more of a farce. Fans and sponsors would not support it and as such, there would be NO PRIZE PURSE to race for.

Even other great motorsport events in the world, notably the Le Mans 24 Hour, need supporting series to bolster their fields and ensure a race can take place.

[The instant classic]

and NONE of those guys are top drivers IN NASCAR or F1 so there is ZERO chance of any NASCAR or F1 team picking up ANY of those guys.
i know none of them are top guys in nascar, thats why i said it didnt work for them, but to run a business you grab anyone you can to win, and yr compilation just had it's "unification" so to stop them, from puting you out of business you need to, you need to grab anyone you can,
i look at things from a business side of things, and indycar sholud really do a better job at holding there drivers, you very well could be right, nascar and F1 wont want them, but i wont want them ridless for to long, cuz someone will pick them up,

[NickFalzone]

Right now there's no legitimate feeder series to the 500 other than the IRL. If the IRL goes out of business, the 500 would be a pretty pathetic event. It could go on, but it wouldn't be pretty. I thought the 08 500 was a good event. Perhaps not up to the greats, but far from a lowpoint either.

[MDS]

Next two to three years are going to be bleak. Some teams likely aren't going to make it. Don't believe all the rumors you hear though

[Bob Riebe]

Really, you think someone can just set up a team and all of the ancillary support workers for just one race? How are you going to attract the talent you need if they will only be gainfully employed for, what, the month of May. Or maybe April and May. Yep, that will happen.

You keep forgetting this is a BUSINESS. Write a business plan that has this two month scope and even if you could find the funding, you have to figure out the procurement of staffing. Let's see that BUSINESS plan, if you are so "sure that teamHs would find the money to chase the Indy prize money."

GaryYou keep ignoring that the "this is a business" bs is the reason that racing is dying.
In the seventies when racing took a big hit it was people who raced because they wanted to race for reason z,y, or x that kept it going, not some "business" plans that feed on greed and greed alone.

Racing did very well before multi-million dollar rigs showed up and will do again without them.
Outlaw races are still the BIG ONE on U.S. short tracks and as the former king of outlaws Copper World Classic is gone, Indy would be a good replacement.

[Bob Riebe]

If there is no money to run the series, there is no money to run a single race. Indy 500 is not immune to all of this.

If the series folds, the cars could well go the way of the Panoz cars, used in another series, probably well away from the USA. In the UAE or in China, where the crisis is not hurting as much as elsewhere.

With no cars, what are you going to race? With what rules and who is going to oversee it all.

If it is to expensive to buy a customer chassis and engine at the moment, it would be impossible to build one off racing specials for a single race. The best drivers would not be available because they are contracted to other race series and only half rate pay-for-my-ride drivers will appear. Parity between cars would be a joke and the racing even more of a farce. Fans and sponsors would not support it and as such, there would be NO PRIZE PURSE to race for.

Even other great motorsport events in the world, notably the Le Mans 24 Hour, need supporting series to bolster their fields and ensure a race can take place.
Good lord, Indy car racing in the U.S. exists because of INDY and INDY alone.

[indycool]

In this economy, I cannot imagine the pitiful nature of what two series would be like and the "blendification" is now more necessary than ever.

Even at that, there are teams that come and go each year. There are sponsors who come and go each year. There are also those who stay for the long term. It's the nature of the beast.

Who ever heard of KK in racing until five years ago. Driver-wise, at least in the U.S., Justin Wilson for that matter? Then there's Sarah Fisher coming back slowly to start a team. It's cyclical, in good times and bad.

[SarahFan]

i read this morning that defender is planning on starting a team in 2010

[DBell]

i read this morning that defender is planning on starting a team in 2010

LOL And here is his driver!

[markabilly]

This is looking really bad for the Series, read the full report by Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com

Posted on AR1

IndyCar picture looks bleak for 2009 As predicted, the results of the IndyCar Versus TV deal is beginning to take effect as a large number of drivers are out of a ride for 2009 unless something breaks sponsor-wise, which they won't because of the Versus TV deal and the anticipated plunge in TV ratings.

According to this SPEEDTV.com article the following drivers may be on the sidelines next year:

1. Justin Wilson appears to be out of a ride at Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing.
2. Will Power will almost certainly be out because of the loss of the Surfers race.
3. Power's KV Racing teammate Oriol Servia has no sponsor as well.
4. With the fallacy of ethanol finally rearing its ugly head, Ryan Hunter-Reay's ethanol sponsorship is on this ice.
5. Throw in Paul Tracy, Bruno Junqueira, Tomas Scheckter and Darren Manning and the IndyCar grid could be down to 18 cars again in 2010.

met a girl who sang the blues
asked her for some happy news
But she just smiled and turned away
I went down to the sacred store Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music woudn't play

And in the streets the children screamed
The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed
But not a word was spoken The Church bells all were broken
And three men I admire most
The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost
They caught the last train for the coast The Day the Music Died.

[CARTDM15]

In this economy, I cannot imagine the pitiful nature of what two series would be like and the "blendification" is now more necessary than ever.

Even at that, there are teams that come and go each year. There are sponsors who come and go each year. There are also those who stay for the long term. It's the nature of the beast.

Who ever heard of KK in racing until five years ago. Driver-wise, at least in the U.S., Justin Wilson for that matter? Then there's Sarah Fisher coming back slowly to start a team. It's cyclical, in good times and bad.
The economy not going to kill racing.Its just going to kill good racing.When you have a Sarah Fisher over a Justin Wilson why watch?

[indycool]

If you base your fandom in the sport on whether Sarah Fisher or Justin Wilson have a ride, IMO, that's the most narrow focus I've ever heard of.

Besides, if I'm N/H/L, I wait until the 3-for-2 test is over next week among Bourdais, Sato and Buemi for Toro Rosso before I do anything about any second seat there. Bourdais won four championships for them and may still be welcome there. He might be looking for a ride.

[Rex Monaco]

You do realize, of course, that if the IRL were to fold then there would be no teams to contest the I500. American OW would be dead forever with zero chance of any revival.

Pikes Peak International Hill Climb has 150+ entrants. So I'm sure the historical aspect of the Indy 500 will continue to bring entrants who dream of winning the Indy 500. Just as long as the rules are written to permit them. (Unlike the situation we have today were the rules prevent entrants from running at Indy.)

And I'm not convinced that AOWR would die forever if the IRL failed. Forever is a really long time and if Indy continued to hold events, a series would eventually rise up around it.

[Rex Monaco]

Right now there's no legitimate feeder series to the 500 other than the IRL. If the IRL goes out of business, the 500 would be a pretty pathetic event. It could go on, but it wouldn't be pretty. I thought the 08 500 was a good event. Perhaps not up to the greats, but far from a lowpoint either.

The 2008 Honda 500 at Indy isn't far from a low point??? Sure there were a few more Hondas, but not very many more.

This year will be included in Indy history as part of the period where the Indy 500 almost died because of the moron who shall not be named or criticised!

[Rex Monaco]

With no cars, what are you going to race?

Any chassis 20 years and newer.



With what rules...

In addition to the above, stock block Turbo V6 engines.



...and who is going to oversee it all.

If it comes to this, not the idiot responsible for destroying it. Most likely USAC.


Even other great motorsport events in the world, notably the Le Mans 24 Hour, need supporting series to bolster their fields and ensure a race can take place.

Pikes Peak is full of garage built and factory developed one off cars, proving that historical events can survive if the rules are well defined and stable.

[Rex Monaco]

Really, you think someone can just set up a team and all of the ancillary support workers for just one race?

What changed in your world were people of all walks of life will no longer do whatever it takes to fullfill their dream?

I still dream of a 200+mph run at Bonneville. Are you telling me that I can no longer realize my dream?

Sure Indy doesn't mean very much to as many as 3 generations of Americans right now, so not as many dream of winning. But there is time to rebuild it's luster with the right rules.

[garyshell]

What changed in your world were people of all walks of life will no longer do whatever it takes to fullfill their dream?

I still dream of a 200+mph run at Bonneville. Are you telling me that I can no longer realize my dream?

Sure Indy doesn't mean very much to as many as 3 generations of Americans right now, so not as many dream of winning. But there is time to rebuild it's luster with the right rules.


Oh please, you have got to be kidding me. So now you want to turn the Indy 500 into some sort of Walter Mitty challenge?

I still haven't seen how you propose to attract a field of 33 cars for what would be a one off race, if you get your wish for the IRL to die. And if the IRL were to die, how do you plan on building the Indy 500's luster by the following May. Is that enough time, even given some unspecified rules change? So what are these magical rules? You seem to think you can just wave your hands, make the IRL go away and magically all sorts of teams will show up the next May, run the race and then dissipate. Where are you going to find 33 teams of mechanics and pit crews that won't otherwise be working in May? If there is no IRL, those employees will be off chasing other series. Will they be able to magically make themselves available for thirty days and then go back to their other gigs? You are DREAMING, without producing so much as a single shred of a workable plan.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

So what are these magical rules?

Magical rules? Isn't that a little childish and condescending?

Do you think you could try to relax a little before you post?

[garyshell]

Magical rules? Isn't that a little childish and condescending?

Do you think you could try to relax a little before you post?

If there was a set of rules that you could institute for the Indy 500, after the demise of the IRL, that would be able to, as YOU put it, "rebuild it's luster with the right rules" enough just a few months to a year latter that you could get 33 entries, I'd call those rules truly magical. It was not condescending at all, it was non-belief.

I am prefectly relaxed as I post this. But I am still waiting for some REAL response from you as to how you would propose to attract 33 teams to the Indy 500, if you get your wish for the demise of the IRL. This isn't about me, this is about your assertions, which as of now are still not backed up by any sort of concrete plan.

Gary

[PA Rick]

Are you old enough to remember when the Indy 500 drew teams with ten year old cars and engnes and the formula was fairly open. There were fours and eights and turbos and Normally Aspirated engines pushrods and diesels and turbines and wedges and wings and etc. Too much money caused the sport to tighten the formula and limit the teams who could compete.
There could be a formula to level the playing field whilst allowing all manner of chassis to compete. Methods of equalizing the cars could be air intake restrictions (cooling and/or engine intake) exhaust output restrictions (Engine exhaust and/or cooling output) weight, wheel and tire size, tire compound.
The IRL may die or wilt away but the Indy 500 has enough tradition to survive.
Maybe this is the intent of the "vision".

[Rex Monaco]

This isn't about me, this is about your assertions, which as of now are still not backed up by any sort of concrete plan.

If it's not about you, then why do I need to provide you with a concrete plan, complete with a set of 'magical' rules?

That's not even how ideas work. From ideas spring more ideas which then lead to plans and rules and success.

And my point was that Indy doesn't have to die even if the IRL does. As long as there are open minded people with new (and old) ideas that are able to see the future through the past.

[indycool]

I can't believe those who are saying the rules aren't equalizing competition already more than it ever has been. Sure, some things are "spec" and that adds to the equalization. If you have some sort of convoluted "run what you brung" deal, how will that improve anything, including things like car count and safety.

A magical rules change is going to send floods of cars to Indy and the series? Baloney.

[garyshell]

Are you old enough to remember when the Indy 500 drew teams with ten year old cars and engnes and the formula was fairly open. There were fours and eights and turbos and Normally Aspirated engines pushrods and diesels and turbines and wedges and wings and etc. Too much money caused the sport to tighten the formula and limit the teams who could compete.
There could be a formula to level the playing field whilst allowing all manner of chassis to compete. Methods of equalizing the cars could be air intake restrictions (cooling and/or engine intake) exhaust output restrictions (Engine exhaust and/or cooling output) weight, wheel and tire size, tire compound.
The IRL may die or wilt away but the Indy 500 has enough tradition to survive.
Maybe this is the intent of the "vision".

Sure I am old enough to remember. But I am also realistic enough to know that pipe dream is long past it's sell by date. I would like nothing better than to see a lot more diversity but just don't see how it can be made to happen. I long for the days of participation by the small mom and pop garage from Milford Ohio (just a few miles from me) each year at the 500. I'd love to see this "formula". But so far, no one has stepped forward with so much as a starting point for one. All I hear is "it could be done", but not a here's how.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

I still haven't seen how you propose to attract a field of 33 cars for what would be a one off race, if you get your wish for the IRL to die.

First let's address your 'magical' part. My wish.

If wishes actualy did come true, then my sole wish (or is this a magical Genie and I get 3 wishes?) would be that the IRL was never formed.

It was the formation of the IRL which has brought AOWR to it's current unstable position. It would have been much easier (and cheaper) to address and fix what was wrong with CART pre-split, than waste all this money, human resources and the publics good will post-split trying to form a second series to prove a point that nobody cared about. This series has survived the war, but it has not had anything near the success that CART once acheived. And that success is no where on the horizon.

Now, how do you attract 33 cars to Indy? How's this, you make it an all alternative fuel, hybrid and electric motor field and disallow any refueling of any kind (which means no battery changes either). Set a minimum weight and maximum HP level, and then let creativity reign at the Indy 500.

500 miles at 200+mph is a long way to travel on a single tank of fuel or a single battery charge. So what could be more appropriate for the current times and the original intent of the event?

Then you speak to President-elect Obama and explain to him how this would help spur development and market his green economy and that you not only want automakers to compete, but universities as well and that he should fund the university efforts and provide a purse.

The Indy 500 was originally about proving to the automobile buying public that their cars were capable of traveling 500 miles without any breaking down. Then it become a race to see who could travel those 500 miles the fastest. This would bring both of those reasons for competing back to Indy.

Just an idea. And there is no requirement for concrete plans or 'magical' rules to discuss this idea civily.

[garyshell]

If it's not about you, then why do I need to provide you with a concrete plan, complete with a set of 'magical' rules?

That's not even how ideas work. From ideas spring more ideas which then lead to plans and rules and success.

And my point was that Indy doesn't have to die even if the IRL does. As long as there are open minded people with new (and old) ideas that are able to see the future through the past.


I have an idea that cold fusion could save the world from its energy crisis. Does that make it viable?

Look, I am NOT averse to the idea of moving the Indy 500 into a more diverse race that hearkens back to the "run-what-ya-brung" days, in fact I would relish that. But if you think that the demise of the IRL is gonna get us there, I think you could not be more wrong. Such a change would need to be transitional, not cataclysmic.

"You say you want a revolution
Well you know we all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know we all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction don't you know you can count me out...

You say you got a real solution
Well you know we'd all love to see the plan"

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

If you have some sort of convoluted "run what you brung" deal, how will that improve anything, including things like car count and safety.

Ok. So instead of a spec chassis, you create a spec driver capsole in conjunction an open chassis rule. Safety issue addressed. Next...

[garyshell]

First let's address your 'magical' part. My wish.

If wishes actually did come true, then my sole wish (or is this a magical Genie and I get 3 wishes?) would be that the IRL was never formed.

It was the formation of the IRL which has brought AOWR to it's current unstable position. It would have been much easier (and cheaper) to address and fix what was wrong with CART pre-split, than waste all this money, human resources and the publics good will post-split trying to form a second series to prove a point that nobody cared about. This series has survived the war, but it has not had anything near the success that CART once acheived. And that success is no where on the horizon.

Now, how do you attract 33 cars to Indy? How's this, you make it an all alternative fuel, hybrid and electric motor field and disallow any refueling of any kind (which means no battery changes either). Set a minimum weight and maximum HP level, and then let creativity reign at the Indy 500.

500 miles at 200+mph is a long way to travel on a single tank of fuel or a single battery charge. So what could be more appropriate for the current times and the original intent of the event?

Then you speak to President-elect Obama and explain to him how this would help spur development and market his green economy and that you not only want automakers to compete, but universities as well and that he should fund the university efforts and provide a purse.

The Indy 500 was originally about proving to the automobile buying public that their cars were capable of traveling 500 miles without any breaking down. Then it become a race to see who could travel those 500 miles the fastest. This would bring both of those reasons for competing back to Indy.

Just an idea. And there is no requirement for concrete plans or 'magical' rules to discuss this idea civily.


Right on! Now you are talking about a PLAN. First, let me say I share wish number one. But Michael J. Fox, is not parked out front with his Delorean so neither you or I are going back in time to fix that issue.

Second, they formula you propose is a great idea. But you can't link it to the demise of the IRL. As I said earlier, you have to make this a TRANSITIONAL plan. If the IRL went "tango uniform" tomorrow, there is no way in hell that your plan could get off the ground by May of 2009.

As I have said many many times, I am no fan of King George, but he and the Holman family ARE the 500 pound gorilla in the room. If we want to see the Indy 500 change we have to make THEM change. It is really that simple. That is why I included the Beatles lyrics in my last post.

See, I was NEVER trying to be childish or condescending with you. I was always trying to evoke you into providing some meat on this idea. If you took it otherwise, I am sorry and apologize. So many times folks do some sort of "drive by" pot shot at an issue here. I suspected that your's was NOT one of those and you had something more substantive to say. Looks like my supposition was right.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

But if you think that the demise of the IRL is gonna get us there, I think you could not be more wrong. Such a change would need to be transitional, not cataclysmic.

I do not a wish for the IRL to fail (although that would certainly be poetic justice). My point is that the Indy 500 could not only survive the failure of the IRL, with the right vision it could thrive.

[garyshell]

Ok. So instead of a spec chassis, you create a spec driver capsole in conjunction an open chassis rule. Safety issue addressed. Next...


Coupled with some strength and viability requirements on the components of the chassis, and I think you are on the right path. Specifically, things like fuels cells, minimum strength of suspension parts (so as to not get the issues that F1 saw early in the 2008 season where if you looked at a wishbone or pushrod cross-eyed it would crumple.) These minimum strength requirements would in no way hinder the innovation that you strive for.

But, I also think that there needs to be a careful consideration to cost containment in this too. We don't want to create a situation whereby the "deep pockets" put everyone else in the weeds.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

As I have said many many times, I am no fan of King George, but he and the Holman family ARE the 500 pound gorilla in the room. If we want to see the Indy 500 change we have to make THEM change.

In any other business, TG would already have been replaced. And if the IRL fails, King George will certainly be dethroned immediatley. So maybe the failure of the IRL is required for the long term health of the Indy 500? I hope not.

[Rex Monaco]

But, I also think that there needs to be a careful consideration to cost containment in this too. We don't want to create a situation whereby the "deep pockets" put everyone else in the weeds.

Without deep pockets, there will be no green economy. This needs to become a national space race and the Indy 500 should be seen as the moon.

Or it's just another race series seeking sponsors with no return on investment.

[SarahFan]

If you base your fandom in the sport on whether Sarah Fisher or Justin Wilson have a ride, IMO, that's the most narrow focus I've ever heard of.

.

first time i read this i totally agreed..... then i got to thinking about it

sure off the track CART/CC was a disaster.... but after Penske/Gannassi left for the IRL CC pretty much bacame a a ride buyers series.....sure the top of the grid was stout... but get below the top 5 or so drivers it was all ride buyers, and the racing suffered becuase of it....

so basing your level of fandom on the level of quality payed drivers racing for wins Vs ride buyers running just to finish is valid IMO


is a debate about Fisher vs Wilson?... not so much, although Wilson beats fisher hands dwon IMO

but Wilson vs sperifico or carpenter or foyt or a euro ride buyer.....

[garyshell]

I do not a wish for the IRL to fail (although that would certainly be poetic justice). My point is that the Indy 500 could not only survive the failure of the IRL, with the right vision it could thrive.

Ok, on point one, I must have confused you with someone else who did call for that.

On point two I totally disagree. I am afraid that if the IRL failed it would take the Indy 500 with it. Even if the IRL were to fold the day after the 2009 Indy 500, there is not enough time to retool everything for the following may. I truly think the ONLY way for any of this to happen is for a metamorphosis. Now if we are talking about a rules package introduced the day after the race that used the existing rules as a starting point and phased in these changes, then maybe yes the 500 could outlast the IRL's demise. But I think that a new strategy would be better of and more successful WITH the IRL behind it.

Gary

[SarahFan]

the IRL could cease operations tomorrow and have a full grid in may

[garyshell]

Without deep pockets, there will be no green economy. This needs to become a national space race and the Indy 500 should be seen as the moon.

Or it's just another race series seeking sponsors with no return on investment.


In principle I agree. But do we want to take the approach of 33 garages with a budget of twenty million each, or 330 garages with two million each? I like the odds better on the latter. I have seen this argument countless times when some folks, who I think are pretty smart, start talking about a green economy. Their argument is, you get more innovation out of hundreds of small shops than you ever will out of a handful of larger one. Hence my concern for cost containment.

Gary

[garyshell]

the IRL could cease operations tomorrow and have a full grid in may


How? Do you think the teams will just sit around and wait to participate in a single race in May? No, most will either fold or switch to another series. The ones that fold will loose their employees to teams in other series or they will find other kinds of jobs. So, now come May where will you find the folks to fill all the jobs? They will be doing something else for a living. Assume a minimum of 10 crew members per team. Where are you going to find 330 QUALIFIED folks who can get vacation time for the month of May? And that 10 per team doesn't even come CLOSE to the real needs.

Gary

[SarahFan]

How?
Gary


it's the Indy500... the biggest most important race on the planet...

perhaps the front tire changer on Darren Dukes 6 year old Dallara is his unemployed cousin from arkansas who is sleeping on his couch and eating take out and ramen for the month....

[garyshell]

Where are you going to find 330 QUALIFIED folks who can get vacation time for the month of May?


it's the Indy500... the biggest most important race on the planet...

perhaps the front tire changer on Darren Dukes 6 year old Dallara is his unemployed cousin from arkansas who is sleeping on his couch and eating take out and ramen for the month....

The question is where do you find the hundreds of QUALIFIED folks that would be needed and as I suspected you don't have an answer.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

In principle I agree. But do we want to take the approach of 33 garages with a budget of twenty million each, or 330 garages with two million each? I like the odds better on the latter. I have seen this argument countless times when some folks, who I think are pretty smart, start talking about a green economy. Their argument is, you get more innovation out of hundreds of small shops than you ever will out of a handful of larger one. Hence my concern for cost containment.

Gary

If Honda wants to spend 20 million to compete head to head against MIT's 20 million dollar government funded budget, then I have no issue with it. Just as long as Joe the mechanics 500 thousand budget allows him the chance at making a qualifying run using his own innovative approach to engine building.

Perhaps a 'stock' motor rule would ensure that the automakers and university engineers are working on relevant technology that would be easily transfered to production and also ensure that Joe has access to a 'stock' motor he could modify himself.

[SarahFan]

The question is where do you find the hundreds of QUALIFIED folks that would be needed and as I suspected you don't have an answer.

Gary

man you are seriosly struggling ......

ok here we go

15-20 of the 33 would likely be satelite operations from other series....grand am...ALMS... and say atlantics/ green series... heck maybe even a star mazda takes the leap...

so manning 1/2 the grid is no problem.......

then you have Nascar teams that would likely run.....sure than thins both groups for the month.... but penske gannassi add four cars... now were close to 2/3

so we need 11 cars... teams....these are the scrap together run what we can guys who have shoetring budgets and satelite crews where the lead mechanic is the engineer and right front wheel changer.....

are they going to be as slick as the Penske boys?... of coarse not.... will they beg borrow and steal to steal just make the show?.... absolutly!... heck they could call me or Danicafan... we would go over the wall on a sunny sunday in may for free.... I'd even buy my own ticket and sleep on Indycools couch

[harvick#1]

it's the Indy500... the biggest most important race on the planet...

since when :confused:

the biggest race in the States, but there is a race held in France in June that is pretty damn important with car manufactorers represented from all over the world.

plus the 500 isn't what it used to be thanks to the single engine and single chassis.

[indycool]

Sleeping on my couch(es) ain't the problem......people do it every year, sometimes crewmen for the month of May.

When all that was conceivable and doable, we weren't dealing with the same financial page that we are today. If we went to Silver Crown cars like the front-engine pieces of old, we'd have 'em lined up for qualifying clear back to Brownsburg.

You're just not going to build and service one of today's pieces as cheaply as you're going to find a Dallara, upgrade it and go racing. The original Dallara and G Forces were built with motor mounts which could accommodate either an Aurora or Infiniti engine, which was a plus. With one engine manufacturer that also puts significant promotional dollars into the series, money would be lost somewhere along the way, or it just wouldn't be possible physically, to stuff a sprint car engine into a Dallara and go racing.

Since the days of yore, the purse for Indy has gone up millions. Ticket prices, which went up during the '90s, have remained pretty stable now for years. The payoff no longer covers the percentage of the effort that it used to, and most probably can't in the big picture. NASCAR has a similar problem but TV money there has helped.

It's 2008-2009 and the financial picture has changed.

[anthonyvop]

it's the Indy500... the biggest most important race on the planet...

.
It isn't the most important race in the USA!

Heck it isn't even the biggest race in Indy!

[garyshell]

Heck it isn't even the biggest race in Indy!

So what IS the biggest race in Indy? Don't forget that the infield is not open to spectators at the Brickyard 400.

Gary

[indycool]

That, anthony, is perhaps the farthest off-target item you have ever posted.

[NickFalzone]

In most useful respects, Indy is the biggest race in the world. And to say it's not the biggest race in Indianapolis is just trolling. The Brickyard has never come close in attendance numbers, and looking at 08's numbers Indy is stronger than ever compared to the Brickyard attendance-wise. Granted, the quality of the race itself and talent of the participants may not have been consistently world class in the last decade. But it's still the biggest spectacle in racing and nothing else comes close.

[Rex Monaco]

The Brickyard has never come close in attendance numbers, and looking at 08's numbers Indy is stronger than ever compared to the Brickyard attendance-wise.

The Brickyard 400 has surpassed it in TV ratings. And TV ratings are more important to sponsors than attendence.

And this thought just occured to me. Could allowing NASCAR to run at Indy, have removed some of the drivers need to choose an IRL career over NASCAR? In other words, doesn't the Brickyard 400 contribute to deminishing the prestige of the Indy 500?

[SarahFan]

In other words, doesn't the Brickyard 400 contribute to deminishing the prestige of the Indy 500?

of coarse it does

[SarahFan]

It isn't the most important race in the USA!

Heck it isn't even the biggest race in Indy!


my distaste for the split wasn't a hate for TG.... it was a Love of the 500




has it's importance decreased since May 1996? yes!


but it is still the I500!!!!!!

[garyshell]

In most useful respects, Indy is the biggest race in the world. And to say it's not the biggest race in Indianapolis is just trolling. The Brickyard has never come close in attendance numbers, and looking at 08's numbers Indy is stronger than ever compared to the Brickyard attendance-wise. Granted, the quality of the race itself and talent of the participants may not have been consistently world class in the last decade. But it's still the biggest spectacle in racing and nothing else comes close.


Yep, you hit the trolling nail right on the head. But, regarding Indy being the biggest race in the world, I have to ask: biggest to what audience? If you are restricting yourself to the US, or even North America, you are probably right. However if you are including the entire world, I am afraid you are way off the mark. LeMans or Monaco, I believe, hold that distinction. The number of folks around the globe who follow those two events is staggering.

Gary

[indycool]

Biggest race in the world is such a subjective thing, I wouldn't hazard a guess.

I've been to Le Mans but not Monaco. Le Mans, like Indy, has such great stature and tradition in a beautiful setting. Indy is the original, back when 500 miles was a long ways, with a big purse and the world's largest seating facility being full or close to full each year. Monaco is the beautiful people place for F1's worldwide presence.

People could argue about that forever.

[anthonyvop]

So what IS the biggest race in Indy? Don't forget that the infield is not open to spectators at the Brickyard 400.

Gary
Brickyard 400 is much bigger.

Bigger TV Numbers.
More Sponsors.
More Press.

When F1 raced at Indy it was Bigger than the Indy 500 and the Brickyard 400 combined.

[downtowndeco]

de·lu·sion (d-lzhn)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.



Brickyard 400 is much bigger.

Bigger TV Numbers.
More Sponsors.
More Press.

When F1 raced at Indy it was Bigger than the Indy 500 and the Brickyard 400 combined.

[garyshell]

Brickyard 400 is much bigger.

Bigger TV Numbers.
More Sponsors.
More Press.

When F1 raced at Indy it was Bigger than the Indy 500 and the Brickyard 400 combined.


de·lu·sion (d-lzhn)

Which part are you questioning? The 400 does have more viewers, certainly more sponsors, not sure about the press. And the F1 race had viewers worldwide so that number against the 500 and 400 combined is not in dispute. Sponsors is a toss up. And for press I would guess, again due to the world wide coverage, it would be a higher number than the other two combined.

I thought Anthony meant bigger attendance AT the race. But in the context he set, I think he is right on most, if not all, his points.

Gary

[indycool]

If he puts it at bigger TV numbers in the U.S., yes, it's a few more. If it's worldwide, I don't know because I don't see any numbers for other countries.

If he puts it as "more sponsors," I ask for the context. Does that just count 33 sponsored cars vs. 43? Does it count associates? Does it count NASCAR vs. IRL sponsors? Does it count lap sponsors? Is it based on dollars spent with who?

If he puts it at more press, I challenge the numbers. In addition to many in the U.S., Japan, Brazil and other countries send media reps to cover their drivers in the "500."

And if he says F1 beats the other two combined, POSSIBLY (and undefined) in the sole province of worldwide TV numbers, but certainly not in attendance, U.S. TV numbers or total media representatives.

[anthonyvop]

If he puts it at bigger TV numbers in the U.S., yes, it's a few more. If it's worldwide, I don't know because I don't see any numbers for other countries.


If he puts it as "more sponsors," I ask for the context. Does that just count 33 sponsored cars vs. 43? Does it count associates? Does it count NASCAR vs. IRL sponsors? Does it count lap sponsors? Is it based on dollars spent with who?.".

Nascar has a major series Sponsor, Dozens of associate sponsors and more cars on their starting grid have full sponsorship


If he puts it at more press, I challenge the numbers. In addition to many in the U.S., Japan, Brazil and other countries send media reps to cover their drivers in the "500.".
Newspapers and TV news reports will devote more space and time to the 400 than the Indy 500.
Neither series has an appreciable prescence outside of N.A.


And if he says F1 beats the other two combined, POSSIBLY (and undefined) in the sole province of worldwide TV numbers, but certainly not in attendance, U.S. TV numbers or total media representatives.
I am not privy to the number of media credentials handed out at the 500 as oppose to F1. I would venture to guess that the 500 has a larger number just with the fact that F1 credentials are difficult to get and limited in number while IRL credentials are fairly easy to get.

The once grand Indy 500 has lost it's luster over the past 10 or so years.
It is not the biggest or most anticipated race. That belongs to the Daytona 500. It is not the race with the most manufactures interest. That is the 12 hours of Sebring.


I am not saying that the 500 isn't a big event. I am saying that it is just not like it use to be.

[indycool]

anthony, no that ISN'T what you said, for one thing.

And the basis of your statement about press coverage of the 500 vs. the 400 is dead wrong to start with. Cars are on the track for 17 days for the 500 and three for the 400. So, something is happening to cover for almost five times as many days between one and the other and the AP is there for every one of 'em as well as AFP and other wire services, in addition to the presumed big influx for Pole Day and Race Day. Not to mention ongoing TV news reports and specials all during the month of May that don't happen for the Brickyard.

That one is like MLB. Each team plays 162 games, so they're going to be in the paper at LEAST 162 times over the course of a season. NASCAR runs twice as many races as the IRL, so it's going to get twice as much exposure as the IRL on that point alone....as a series, but certainly not from the 500 to 400 at Indy.

[Bob Riebe]

It isn't the most important race in the USA!

Heck it isn't even the biggest race in Indy!
Yeah right.
It is bigger than the Daytona 500 (that has also become an also ran compared to what it once was when Daytona speed weeks got world wide coverage, including the minor races) in attendance, rize money, and press coverage.

The fact the euro press still bemoans what happened to the Indy 500, but does not even give lip service to the Daytona 500, proves the point.
The Brickyard race, not as big as the Daytona race .

You are merely stating your opinion, try again.

[Bob Riebe]

QUOTE=anthonyvop;557281]

Newspapers and TV news reports will devote more space and time to the 400 than the Indy 500.
Neither series has an appreciable prescence outside of N.A.


[/QUOTE]Where?
Here the Indy 500 here still usually gets several days coverage, including coverage (Twin Cities papers) of qualifying.
The Brickyard gets the same as any Nascar race that gets covered, quarter to half column report on who won, IF covered, and finishing position list.
Sometimes qualifying for some races gets a paragraph, or two, otherwise just the list of positions.

[ykiki]

Speaking of the Twin Cities, I was there on a business trip in Feb 2001. I happened to be at the Mall of America while the Daytona 500 was being run, and I was simply amazed at the number of shops that had TV's tuned into the race. Easily it was 25% of the stores. Heck, even some womens clothing stores had the race on tv - no doubt to keep the hubbies occupied. Wherever there was a tv, there was a fairly large group of people standing around and watching.

I was amazed, because that certainly doesn't happen at any of the malls in the Seattle area. My coworker and I were actually getting annoyed because we'd have to weave our way through the tv logjams in order to get in and out of the stores.

Just wondering if that's the case with the Indy 500 at the Mall of America as well?

p.s. I was at a die-cast collectibles shop at the end of the race when Earnhart's car hit the wall. It didn't look very serious and we all went about our lives soon after. It wasn't until we got back to the hotel later and switched on ESPN that we learned of the truly tragic end of the race. The "3" dislplay car at the NASCAR simulator arcase was covered in flowers when we visited the mall after work the next day.

[Bob Riebe]

Speaking of the Twin Cities, I was there on a business trip in Feb 2001. I happened to be at the Mall of America while the Daytona 500 was being run, and I was simply amazed at the number of shops that had TV's tuned into the race. Easily it was 25% of the stores. Heck, even some womens clothing stores had the race on tv - no doubt to keep the hubbies occupied. Wherever there was a tv, there was a fairly large group of people standing around and watching.

I was amazed, because that certainly doesn't happen at any of the malls in the Seattle area. My coworker and I were actually getting annoyed because we'd have to weave our way through the tv logjams in order to get in and out of the stores.

Just wondering if that's the case with the Indy 500 at the Mall of America as well?

p.s. I was at a die-cast collectibles shop at the end of the race when Earnhart's car hit the wall. It didn't look very serious and we all went about our lives soon after. It wasn't until we got back to the hotel later and switched on ESPN that we learned of the truly tragic end of the race. The "3" dislplay car at the NASCAR simulator arcase was covered in flowers when we visited the mall after work the next day.
Any store will multiple screens for sale, shows what ever whom ever controlls the screens wishes to show.
If it is a woman and there is competitive dancing she wishes to see, everyone will get to see it.
I worked at a department store once and know how it worked there.

[philipbain]

Global financial problems impacting motor racing is nothing new. Take F1 in the late 80s as an example, when the economies of Europe were booming there was massive interest in F1, which at the time had no restriction on the number of teams that could attempt to qualify, hence in 1989 there were up to 39 cars attempting to qualify for one of the 26 starting slots for a grand prix. By the end of 1992 the field had been decimated to such an extent that there were no cars that didnt make the cut (the last tail end charlie team were Andrea Moda, who consistantly didnt qualify for the balance of the 1992 season). Its only natural that in harder times in the market that there will be less cash available from sponsors and that combined with a less than attractive TV deal for the IRL may mean that sponsors feel thier now limited resources are better spent elsewhere. The key to NASCAR's impressive growth over the last few years has been the TV deal which cleverly uses the massive proliferation of races to it's advantage where it could act against it, cutting the season into 3 parts TV-wise ensuring standards are maintained as Fox, TNT/ESPN & ABC all compete with each other for quality of coverage. It may be that the Versus deal was the best that the IRL could get, though i'm willing to bet that they may have been able to get better coverage (in terms of access to more homes) if they were willing to take a bit less for it, which whilst the IRL would be getting a little less the teams would at least have a slightly easier time getting the sponsors on board.