Force India confirm McLaren partnership

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72063

[Sleeper]

Interesting. It makes no mention of the customer car that it was thought they were after but they still get a lot from McLaren out of this deal.

[gloomyDAY]

Williams can't be too happy about this move.

McLaren managed to step on the fine line of the Concorde Agreement and hand over some much needed assistance to VJ. Force India might be as contentious as STR was in 2008.

[truefan72]

sadly, this to me looks like a customer car deal.

Yes they aren't getting a chasis, but pretty much everything else either directly or via access to McLaren's suppliers.

In effect Force India has become the McLaren B-team.

It smacks of hypocrisy since they were one of the loudest opponents of the ProDrive deal as well as instrumental in their disapproval of the SuperAguri/Honda relationship.

Now a year later all that is forgotten and they duly go ahead and forge a deal that is pretty much a combination of the superAguri and Prodrive deals.

In essence I don't mind teams partnering on development etc. but I'm no fan of the b-team setups. ( I hope that STR finally do their own thing. It's ok for them to share an owner, but they should work separately)

And I especially don't like teams that are instrumental in denouncing deals and measures then turn around and take advantage of that course of action for thier own benefit.

Maybe with this deal they can move Sutil to Mercedes and Kovaleinen to Force India. One can only wish :)

[truefan72]

Williams can't be too happy about this move.

McLaren managed to step on the fine line of the Concorde Agreement and hand over some much needed assistance to VJ. Force India might be as contentious as STR was in 2008.


Yes Williams can't be too happy about this at all, they seem to be the odd one out. I sincerely hiope that they find a manufacturer ( Mazda, Porsche) with racing heritage willing to come into the sport with a fine outfit such as Williams.

[gloomyDAY]

Maybe with this deal they can move Sutil to Mercedes and Kovaleinen to Force India. One can only wish :) What good would that do? :confused:

[BeansBeansBeans]

Maybe with this deal they can move Sutil to Mercedes and Kovaleinen to Force India. One can only wish :)

There is a rumour that Mercedes' Paul Di Resta will be placed with FI.

A Scot to replace DC.

[Valve Bounce]

This whole think stinks.

[Tazio]

This is something that could happen having shown Colin Kowles the door.
VJ obviously viewed his stand and lawsuit over the customer car issue as
antidisestablishmentarianism!!! :confused:
Wait this has nothing to do with the Anglican Church being the state church of England :(
I think I'm suffering from
pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis! :p : Sorry! ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Maybe with this deal they can move Sutil to Mercedes and Kovaleinen to Force India. One can only wish :)

I take it that you don't like Mercedes...

[CNR]

devil's advocate i hope toro rosso find a buyer the customer car issue comes around and byte them on the ass after all how much of that (court action) had to do with the demise of super aguri

will we now see red bull and toro rosso with Ferrari engine

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72066

This outlines the partnership pretty well.

McLaren are taking a proactive interest in FI and helping them get up the food chain. I don't think their goal of wins in 2010 are particularly unrealistic.

With McLarens guidance, I am sure that a competitive Chassis can be developed and knowledge transfer of process and discipline will undoubtedly help FI.

There could even be McLaren drivers coming up from FI for a year before driving for McLaren.

Everything is within the Concord agreement and is completely different from supplying a specific B team with a car and getting them race it for you.

[ioan]

This is worse than the Super Aguri case, as SAF1 was getting 1 year old technology and trying to develop it bit more.
Force India are looking to buy McLaren knowledge as they go.
The only different thing is that they might build the cars themselves.

This is what happens when corporatist people get into F1, they make a business out of it.

[PolePosition_1]

This is worse than the Super Aguri case, as SAF1 was getting 1 year old technology and trying to develop it bit more.
Force India are looking to buy McLaren knowledge as they go.
The only different thing is that they might build the cars themselves.

This is what happens when corporatist people get into F1, they make a business out of it.

So were you against TR and Red Bull getting 2008 spec engines this year ?

[Knock-on]

So were you against TR and Red Bull getting 2008 spec engines this year ?

Of course not because they weren't procured from McLaren :D

[ioan]

So were you against TR and Red Bull getting 2008 spec engines this year ?

There was an engine freeze in place! I think that answers your question.

[PolePosition_1]

There was an engine freeze in place! I think that answers your question.


Well, considering teams have managed to gain 20BHP over the season, I'd suggest its an engine freeze in name only. In reality, its not a total freeze

[yodasarmpit]

What's the difference between this and the proposed Prodrive customer car that was disallowed?
In all but name this is a customer car.

[Sleeper]

I'm surprsied at the number of people calling it a customer car. I've yet to see anything that suggests FI will be using McLaren designs for chassis and aero. I've no doubt that McLaren development knowledge is going to passed on, helping them avoid dead ends and improve the car, but this is only a more advanced form of the customer deal that WIlliams and Toyota currently have. After all, those two teams have shared a limited amount of data on transmission systems.

[FIA]

Lanica to purchase Toro Rosso and I believe Williams will get backed by Audi, Porshce or maybe a bike company like Kawasaki.

[ioan]

I'm surprsied at the number of people calling it a customer car. I've yet to see anything that suggests FI will be using McLaren designs for chassis and aero.

They don't have technical director and designer anymore! So, guess who will design their car now?!

[BDunnell]

They don't have technical director and designer anymore! So, guess who will design their car now?!

There's still time to hire people, I suppose.

[ioan]

They should be testing already next week. Other teams will do it. How will they work without having someone to coordinate everything and make changes in their design?

I'm very skeptical about all this, and the fact that they are part of the reason why Super Aguri is no more makes me very angry.

[gloomyDAY]

They should be testing already next week. Other teams will do it. How will they work without having someone to coordinate everything and make changes in their design?

I'm very skeptical about all this, and the fact that they are part of the reason why Super Aguri is no more makes me very angry.Now we know why VJ is so successful.

'Excuse me! Do you mind getting that knife out of my back?'

[BDunnell]

They should be testing already next week. Other teams will do it. How will they work without having someone to coordinate everything and make changes in their design?

Not very well, I should think!

[truefan72]

I take it that you don't like Mercedes...

quite the contrary, I do like mercedes and Mclaren,

I just don;t like the hypocrisy of Force India and I'm no fan of customer cars either...and I don't particularly rate Kovy as a deserving driver for the seat he occupies. I think Sutil would be an upgrade.

[F1boat]

Sutil can probably crash into a Ferrari in the pit if needed, but I don't think that he'd be an upgrade. I'd like to see him gone from F1. Di Resta, I'd like to see him in F1 :)

[ShiftingGears]

quite the contrary, I do like mercedes and Mclaren,

I just don;t like the hypocrisy of Force India and I'm no fan of customer cars either...and I don't particularly rate Kovy as a deserving driver for the seat he occupies. I think Sutil would be an upgrade.

Judging by their performances against Fisichella, Sutil is not better than Kovalainen. At all. In the slightest.

Heikki took half his rookie season before he started solidly beating Fisichella. At no stage has Sutil solidly beat Fisichella. In fact, Fisi has had the measure of Sutil for the majority of races. So I cannot justify, by any logic, why Sutil would be better driver than Kovalainen, should they be on the same team.

[wmcot]

They don't have technical director and designer anymore! So, guess who will design their car now?!

Mike Coughlan??? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

What's the difference between this and the proposed Prodrive customer car that was disallowed?
Dave Richards must be asking that same question.

[52Paddy]

This was in the morning paper yesterday. I can't quote exactly but VJ was saying that for 2010 he would like to win some races and be on the podium. For 2009 he would be satisfied with regular points finishes. I realize that this deal with McLaren will benefit Force India but I'm not sure whether their goals will be fulfilled either. :s Its all a bit up in the air for the minute, I think.

Dave Richards must be asking that same question.

So are Force India using last years Mclaren chassis?

The way I read it was that the deal was for just about everything except some MP4/23's.

[I am evil Homer]

That was also my understanding...engines, technical assistance (probably suspension and aero) and that was it, they weren't getting old Mac chassis.

I'm also against this not because of McLaren but the utter hypocrisy of VM and Force India to the point of sacking Kolles because of his past comments on the customer issue regarding Red Bull.

[ArrowsFA1]

So are Force India using last years Mclaren chassis?

The way I read it was that the deal was for just about everything except some MP4/23's.
I was thinking more generally in terms of the "partnership" between Prodrive/Force India and McLaren. It does seem as though the details of the two deals do differ.

[ioan]

Mike Coughlan??? ;)

:rotflmao:
Now that would be something interesting to talk about! Maybe he'll bring around his good friend Stepney! :D

[ioan]

So are Force India using last years Mclaren chassis?


It would be impossible with the new technical regs! They'll probably get something closer to the MP4-24! ;)

[BDunnell]

It would be impossible with the new technical regs! They'll probably get something closer to the MP4-24! ;)

Which is why I think all the talk of the 2009 FI car being a McLaren in all but name is rather erroneous, because clearly McLaren aren't going to design them a new car from scratch.

[AJP]

Am I wrong in thinking that supplying Force India with Engine, Gearbox, Kers is very similar to say Renault supplying engines to Red Bull? just more parts?
McLaren are not designing the car for them, nor giving them a chasis are they?

[Allyc85]

No, just the bits they said in the press release asfar as we know for now.

Theres a story in the uk motorsport news saying Dela Rosa is inline for a drive,I really hope not!

[Sleeper]

They don't have technical director and designer anymore! So, guess who will design their car now?!
Mark Smith (designer of the Renault R25) and James Key are still there and running the tech side of things.

[CNR]

i think this force india deal sucks big time the teams should be linked and testing should be cut for one team.
http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/31641_McLaren_man_takes_major_Force_India_role.php


A McLaren director has been appointed in a leading role with the Force India team.

With the confirmation of Force India's technical linkup with McLaren-Mercedes on Monday, it also emerged that the Silverstone based team will receive "operational support".



As more details were divulged at a media event at Force India's Northamptonshire headquarters, it became clear that 46-year-old Simon Roberts, McLaren's operations director, will forthwith now work full-time for Force India.

[ArrowsFA1]

i think this force india deal sucks big time the teams should be linked and testing should be cut for one team.
But how different is this from the Red Bull/Toro Rosso set up? We sometimes hear their drivers refer to the Red Bull "family" as if they are one and the same team, and they certainly get their chassis from the same place.

But how different is this from the Red Bull/Toro Rosso set up? We sometimes hear their drivers refer to the Red Bull "family" as if they are one and the same team, and they certainly get their chassis from the same place.

Because Red Bull & Toro Rosso were not known for being anti-customer cars, whereas Force India were?

I think there was more to it than just Force India being against the customer-car idea, but it certainly was one of the factors that saw Super Aguri fail to find a buyer.

Hardly surprising, therefore, that the two most hypocritical teams in the paddock have come to a deal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72169

[52Paddy]

Well, with that partnership now underway, I wonder how much it will benefit Force India, if at all. The McLaren boys will clearly be more concerned about keeping McLaren at the top of the game and I reckon this Force India lark is just a 'side project' in their eyes.

Force India themselves have high expectations but I'm still not convinced that it will work.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think there was more to it than just Force India being against the customer-car idea, but it certainly was one of the factors that saw Super Aguri fail to find a buyer.
If that's the case then could it not be argued that Williams were as much to "blame"? They have argued strongly that (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67182) "teams that do not make or design their own cars should not be allowed to score championship points or benefit from television revenues earmarked for constructors."

In addition to Super Aguri, it could be argued that Prodrive's planned entry into F1, as well as Tony Teixeira's similar (proposed) arrangement with Ferrari and Toro Rosso, were affected by the Williams stance. Remember also that Max Mosley said that so-called 'customer cars' were the future of the sport and encouraged bids for the 12th place on the grid.

[ioan]

If that's the case then could it not be argued that Williams were as much to "blame"?

But Williams didn't become a customer car at the end of the same season when Super Aguri were eliminated!
Can't you see the difference between Williams staying close to their beliefs and Force India practically becoming what they were criticizing during the last 2 years?!

Force India is a very hypocrite organization IMO, every bit as much as McLaren has proved to be in the latest years.

[ioan]

Because Red Bull & Toro Rosso were not known for being anti-customer cars, whereas Force India were?

I think there was more to it than just Force India being against the customer-car idea, but it certainly was one of the factors that saw Super Aguri fail to find a buyer.

Hardly surprising, therefore, that the two most hypocritical teams in the paddock have come to a deal.

Agree!

If that's the case then could it not be argued that Williams were as much to "blame"?


But Williams didn't become a customer car at the end of the same season when Super Aguri were eliminated!
Can't you see the difference between Williams staying close to their beliefs and Force India practically becoming what they were criticizing during the last 2 years?!

I second what Ioan has said.

[Robinho]

i'll agree, IF the Force india deal turns out to be more than Engine, Drive train and Kers, which is all its been said to be so far, sure there is some technical assistance, but IMO thats no different that any other customer engine deal in the paddock.

also, the removal of Kolles shows exactly where the oppsition to customer cars lies, if this is indeed a deeper relationship, that would only indicate to me that the team (FI) have changed their minds on where they sit, but to me it looks very much like they will continue to design and build their own cars.

it remains to be seen how deep this partnership goes, and i will happily admt if i am wrong, but i think we are getting a little carried away at the moment.

and for the record, if it is a cusomer car deal, i don't really have much problem with it either, although i wish the rules would be clarified or dropped and done earlier so we hadn't lost Super Dooper and Prodrive

[Knock-on]

i'll agree, IF the Force india deal turns out to be more than Engine, Drive train and Kers, which is all its been said to be so far, sure there is some technical assistance, but IMO thats no different that any other customer engine deal in the paddock.

also, the removal of Kolles shows exactly where the oppsition to customer cars lies, if this is indeed a deeper relationship, that would only indicate to me that the team (FI) have changed their minds on where they sit, but to me it looks very much like they will continue to design and build their own cars.

it remains to be seen how deep this partnership goes, and i will happily admt if i am wrong, but i think we are getting a little carried away at the moment.

and for the record, if it is a cusomer car deal, i don't really have much problem with it either, although i wish the rules would be clarified or dropped and done earlier so we hadn't lost Super Dooper and Prodrive

I agree Rob.

At the moment, it looks like McLaren are taking an active interest in FI on a collaborative basis but will not be supplying them cars. Engines, componants and expertise sure but not a customer car.

Perhaps if the Ferrari deal would have worked out better for them, we would have seen a similar partnership with Marenello but FI obviously feel they will gain more of a benefit working with McLaren.

As for their position over customer cars, I understand their point and while not totally agreeing with it, appreciate why they took their stance. What I see them doing now does not conflict with that stance. If the FIA had of clarified the position then SA and Prodrive might have had options.

[ArrowsFA1]

But Williams didn't become a customer car at the end of the same season when Super Aguri were eliminated!
The issue of customer cars has been around for as long as Super Aguri were in existence, and in that time we've had Midland, Spyker and finally Force India.

Can't you see the difference between Williams staying close to their beliefs and Force India practically becoming what they were criticizing during the last 2 years?
Of course there's a difference, just as there have been different owners of what is now Force India. Different owners have different aims and ideas and clearly Vijay Malya sees the future of his team as having a link with McLaren.

[Knock-on]

Woops, wrong thread.

Erased

[ioan]

Perhaps if the Ferrari deal would have worked out better for them, we would have seen a similar partnership with Marenello but FI obviously feel they will gain more of a benefit working with McLaren.

I suppose that Ferrari were not willing to design them a new chassis.
As far as I know, STR managed to win a race and finished 6th in the championship on a Ferrari engine deal, so it clearly is a good deal, it only lacks a good chassis that didn't come with it.

[CNR]

http://www.mclaren.com/theteam/simon-roberts.php

this is not a Nobody


Simon joined McLaren Racing in September 2003 as General Manager and is responsible for coordinating the manufacture and assembly processes, I.T., transport and logistics, quality, vehicle technology laboratories and human resources. He became Operations Director in 2006.
did he take McLaren blueprints with him

[harsha]

i agree with what Robinho's posted

i won't comment on the Mclaren + Force India deal at the present moment

[BDunnell]

I suppose that Ferrari were not willing to design them a new chassis.
As far as I know, STR managed to win a race and finished 6th in the championship on a Ferrari engine deal, so it clearly is a good deal, it only lacks a good chassis that didn't come with it.

And can anyone seriously expect Ferrari to enter into such a chassis deal? I can't.

[jso1985]

I suppose that Ferrari were not willing to design them a new chassis.
As far as I know, STR managed to win a race and finished 6th in the championship on a Ferrari engine deal, so it clearly is a good deal, it only lacks a good chassis that didn't come with it.

And I suppose you're supposing McLaren is going to design them a chassis, cause besides rumours and early conclussions nothing has been said about FI getting a McLaren chassis

[ioan]

And I suppose you're supposing McLaren is going to design them a chassis, cause besides rumours and early conclussions nothing has been said about FI getting a McLaren chassis

I think they will do give them lots of help regarding the chassis design, because with KERS things will get more complicated from the POV of chassis design. They will need to find the perfect balance with the new added weight, this means lots and lots of work and money, and all this after they fired a their chief designer and technical director.

I think that they gave up on the Ferrari contract for 2 reasons:
1. Ferrari were not going to help them design the chassis
2. Ferrari might not use KERS at the start of the season, and maybe Force India believe that this will hinder their quest for "victories".

I'm not at all against customer cars, only against hypocrisy.

[ioan]

And can anyone seriously expect Ferrari to enter into such a chassis deal? I can't.

Well, they certainly helped Sauber a while ago, but maybe they are not were not interested to supply engines to 2 teams and also design chassis to another one while in the same time being involved in A1GP, it might have been a bit too much. It might also be that after last year they don't trust anyone to such a level as to give them chassis information.

[BDunnell]

Well, they certainly helped Sauber a while ago, but maybe they are not were not interested to supply engines to 2 teams and also design chassis to another one while in the same time being involved in A1GP, it might have been a bit too much. It might also be that after last year they don't trust anyone to such a level as to give them chassis information.

I think there's a certain amount of pride involved - just as Ferrari will surely never use anybody else's engine in F1. Quite right too.

[I am evil Homer]

http://www.mclaren.com/theteam/simon-roberts.php

this is not a Nobody


did he take McLaren blueprints with him

Hardly a critical McLaren member though is he? Sounds like an office manager role to me....he's certainly not a technical person designing or understanding the ins and outs of an F1 car. Seems more like he's there to organise FI.

[ioan]

I think there's a certain amount of pride involved - just as Ferrari will surely never use anybody else's engine in F1. Quite right too.

Pride has nothing to do with it, after all Ferrari sold F1 engines to other teams and the 2003 Sauber was certainly heavily influenced by the Ferrari 2002 design.

[ioan]

Hardly a critical McLaren member though is he? Sounds like an office manager role to me....he's certainly not a technical person designing or understanding the ins and outs of an F1 car. Seems more like he's there to organise FI.

Maybe to organize the symbiosis between the two teams, in order to work like one?! ;)

[BDunnell]

Pride has nothing to do with it, after all Ferrari sold F1 engines to other teams and the 2003 Sauber was certainly heavily influenced by the Ferrari 2002 design.

Bit different to giving someone your last year's car, though, isn't it?

[Sleeper]

I think they will do give them lots of help regarding the chassis design, because with KERS things will get more complicated from the POV of chassis design. They will need to find the perfect balance with the new added weight, this means lots and lots of work and money, and all this after they fired a their chief designer and technical director.

I think that they gave up on the Ferrari contract for 2 reasons:
1. Ferrari were not going to help them design the chassis
2. Ferrari might not use KERS at the start of the season, and maybe Force India believe that this will hinder their quest for "victories".

I'm not at all against customer cars, only against hypocrisy.
As I've already posted, and you've conviniently ignored, Force India have still got Mark Smith and James Key as Chief Designer and Technical Director respectively and they were in those roles whilst Gascoine was their, though I'm not sure on Smith. These two have designed race and title winning cars before so theirs no lack of design talent at FI.

What this deal probably does is cut down on the expensive development areas of gearbox and KERS as they are buying them from McLaren, and getting the engine they were designed for as well. I ont see anything that sugests a customer car deal here, just a few people making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[BDunnell]

What this deal probably does is cut down on the expensive development areas of gearbox and KERS as they are buying them from McLaren, and getting the engine they were designed for as well. I ont see anything that sugests a customer car deal here, just a few people making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Absolutely.

[ioan]

Bit different to giving someone your last year's car, though, isn't it?

In modern F1 last year's car is already outdated by the time the first pre-season tests are done.
Giving them equally developed engine is way more dangerous, and Ferrari did it already.

[BDunnell]

In modern F1 last year's car is already outdated by the time the first pre-season tests are done.

Exactly, so no-one need get worked up about the Force India deal, then.

[ioan]

As I've already posted, and you've conviniently ignored, Force India have still got Mark Smith and James Key as Chief Designer and Technical Director respectively and they were in those roles whilst Gascoine was their, though I'm not sure on Smith.

I didn't ignore it but I chose not to answer it because those 2 guys you are mentioning are "no names" for me, never ever heard about them, and I was not willing to make inadvertent comments about them, But I think that saying that they could do what MG was doing is a bit over the top.
Every team that wants to win races, as VJ stated, are having a top shelf technical director and designer. Force India wants us to believe that they will do it with 2 no names just because they get the Mercedes engine and the McLaren KERS.
Tell you what, I don't believe in Santa Claus for some time already.

And I will reiterate that I have nothing against customer cars, only against hypocrits. Maybe is because I really liked the Super Dooper team!

[ioan]

Exactly, so no-one need get worked up about the Force India deal, then.

But you miss the point there, this years McLaren wouldn't qualify with next seasons technical regulations, thus the new FI chassis will be more like the new McLaren one.

[BDunnell]

But you miss the point there, this years McLaren wouldn't qualify with next seasons technical regulations, thus the new FI chassis will be more like the new McLaren one.

I don't think I am missing the point, because there is no real suggestion of this being a customer car deal.

[ioan]

I don't think I am missing the point, because there is no real suggestion of this being a customer car deal.

Let's wait and see.

[Sleeper]

I didn't ignore it but I chose not to answer it because those 2 guys you are mentioning are "no names" for me, never ever heard about them, and I was not willing to make inadvertent comments about them, But I think that saying that they could do what MG was doing is a bit over the top.
Every team that wants to win races, as VJ stated, are having a top shelf technical director and designer. Force India wants us to believe that they will do it with 2 no names just because they get the Mercedes engine and the McLaren KERS.
Tell you what, I don't believe in Santa Claus for some time already.

And I will reiterate that I have nothing against customer cars, only against hypocrits. Maybe is because I really liked the Super Dooper team!
I can see what you mean about James Key, until about a year ago I hadnt heard of him either, but Mark Smith is not a "no-name". He worked closely with Gascoine to turn Jordan into race winners and moved with him to Renault, and stayed there as cheif designer when Gascoine went to Toyota. He was in charge of the design and development of the R25, you know the car that gave Alonso his first world title, whilst Rob Bell worked on the R24 and R26 (Renault had two cheif designers responsable for the cars of alternating years). Became chief designer under tech diretor Adrian Newey at Red Bull before moving back to Spyker a year ago. Hardly a no name, even if you havnt heard of him, after all I cant name the chief designers and aero heads of every team and teams tend to keep quite about the talented people so that they cant be poched by the oposition.

[Hawkmoon]

What's in it for McLaren? What do Team Integrity get out of helping poor Force India get off the back of the grid? I don't think money can be the sole reason McLaren are doing this.

Afterall, McLaren aren't exactly a charitable bunch. They, along with Williams, went to court to prevent Minardi from getting Prost's TV money when the French team folded a few years ago. Unless Uncle Ron's getting soft in his dottage then there has to be something in it for McLaren. Don't forget it was Dennis who first described F1 as a "meritocricy" was it not?

McLaren have been trying to set up a B team for a while. That's why I think they've done this. This partnership will be more along the lines of the Honda/Super Aguri relationship than the Red Bull/Torro Rosso deal.

With the ever increasing restrictions on testing, having a partner to help could be a signicant advantage. Got a new part to try? Send it to Force India. Got a young guy who needs a test? Send him to Force India. Need more info on the tyres at a GP? Give Force India a call.

If McLaren place De La Rosa at Force India then Mallya's mob will be confirmed as McLaren Team B for me. Pedro will have the same role as Davidson did with Honda/SA. Race for the Bs whilst testing for the As.

[ioan]

I can see what you mean about James Key, until about a year ago I hadnt heard of him either, but Mark Smith is not a "no-name". He worked closely with Gascoine to turn Jordan into race winners and moved with him to Renault, and stayed there as cheif designer when Gascoine went to Toyota. He was in charge of the design and development of the R25, you know the car that gave Alonso his first world title, whilst Rob Bell worked on the R24 and R26 (Renault had two cheif designers responsable for the cars of alternating years). Became chief designer under tech diretor Adrian Newey at Red Bull before moving back to Spyker a year ago. Hardly a no name, even if you havnt heard of him, after all I cant name the chief designers and aero heads of every team and teams tend to keep quite about the talented people so that they cant be poched by the oposition.

I really wasn't aware about this Mark Smith guy, I only knew that Rob Bell was Renault's designer in chief.

[ioan]

What's in it for McLaren? What do Team Integrity get out of helping poor Force India get off the back of the grid? I don't think money can be the sole reason McLaren are doing this.

Afterall, McLaren aren't exactly a charitable bunch. They, along with Williams, went to court to prevent Minardi from getting Prost's TV money when the French team folded a few years ago. Unless Uncle Ron's getting soft in his dottage then there has to be something in it for McLaren. Don't forget it was Dennis who first described F1 as a "meritocricy" was it not?

McLaren have been trying to set up a B team for a while. That's why I think they've done this. This partnership will be more along the lines of the Honda/Super Aguri relationship than the Red Bull/Torro Rosso deal.

With the ever increasing restrictions on testing, having a partner to help could be a signicant advantage. Got a new part to try? Send it to Force India. Got a young guy who needs a test? Send him to Force India. Need more info on the tyres at a GP? Give Force India a call.

If McLaren place De La Rosa at Force India then Mallya's mob will be confirmed as McLaren Team B for me. Pedro will have the same role as Davidson did with Honda/SA. Race for the Bs whilst testing for the As.

I think you are very close to the truth about the McLaren-Force India "partnership".

[Knock-on]

Well, they certainly helped Sauber a while ago, but maybe they are not were not interested to supply engines to 2 teams and also design chassis to another one while in the same time being involved in A1GP, it might have been a bit too much. It might also be that after last year they don't trust anyone to such a level as to give them chassis information.

You may have a point here.

Ferrari already have significant ties with other teams giving them feedback. The help FI require to get them in a position where they can provide "meaningful" feedback to aid Ferrari would be significant.

Perhaps Ferrari weren't prepared to invest that time and effort and who could blame them?


What's in it for McLaren? What do Team Integrity get out of helping poor Force India get off the back of the grid? I don't think money can be the sole reason McLaren are doing this.

Afterall, McLaren aren't exactly a charitable bunch. They, along with Williams, went to court to prevent Minardi from getting Prost's TV money when the French team folded a few years ago. Unless Uncle Ron's getting soft in his dottage then there has to be something in it for McLaren. Don't forget it was Dennis who first described F1 as a "meritocricy" was it not?

McLaren have been trying to set up a B team for a while. That's why I think they've done this. This partnership will be more along the lines of the Honda/Super Aguri relationship than the Red Bull/Torro Rosso deal.

With the ever increasing restrictions on testing, having a partner to help could be a signicant advantage. Got a new part to try? Send it to Force India. Got a young guy who needs a test? Send him to Force India. Need more info on the tyres at a GP? Give Force India a call.

If McLaren place De La Rosa at Force India then Mallya's mob will be confirmed as McLaren Team B for me. Pedro will have the same role as Davidson did with Honda/SA. Race for the Bs whilst testing for the As.


Not a B team but an alternative team for sure.

McLaren need to work with a 2nd team to develop.

There would be very little value gained by having 2 identical teams out there but by having a competitive friendly team, they can work closely to jointly develop and progress.

OK, Ferrari supporters wont like it because it strengthens Mclarens hand. They will bleat on about "Team Integrity" and hypocrisy but there is nothing wrong with this at all. In fact, it is what the FIA and smaller teams have been pushing for and McLaren and FI should be applauded.


Good excuse to have a go at McLaren for no reason again :D

Good excuse to have a go at McLaren for no reason again :D

For no reason again?

There have been plenty of reasons to have a go at Mclaren previously. All justified.

[Knock-on]

For no reason again?

There have been plenty of reasons to have a go at Mclaren previously. All justified.

If you insist :laugh:

I believe we were talking about McLaren and FI? Not the same old regurgitated rubbish from 2 years ago which has been discussed to death and has no relevance ;)

Y
Good excuse to have a go at McLaren for no reason again :D



I believe we were talking about McLaren and FI? Not the same old regurgitated rubbish from 2 years ago which has been discussed to death and has no relevance ;)

So why use the word "again"?

If you don't want the regurgitated rubbish/fact that Mclaren are disgusting cheats (delete according to morals), brought up "again", then don't bring it up.

It's quite simple.

[Knock-on]

So why use the word "again"?

If you don't want the regurgitated rubbish/fact that Mclaren are disgusting cheats (delete according to morals), brought up "again", then don't bring it up.

It's quite simple.

:laugh:

OK, whatever :D

You do make me smile ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

The Fawlty Towers Germans sketch comes to mind at this point :dozey:

You do make me smile ;)

I can see it now....http://www.daylife.com/photo/0fJc0dzeli1Vi

My apologies....this is a better likeness...

http://www.codoh.com/irving/irving.html

[Hawkmoon]

Not a B team but an alternative team for sure.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other?


McLaren need to work with a 2nd team to develop.

No they don't. It didn't help Honda and it hasn't helped Red Bull. Honda still suck and their B team folded and Red Bull have seen their B team out perform them.


There would be very little value gained by having 2 identical teams out there but by having a competitive friendly team, they can work closely to jointly develop and progress.

Again, ask Red Bull how much help STR have been in 2008.


OK, Ferrari supporters wont like it because it strengthens Mclarens hand. They will bleat on about "Team Integrity" and hypocrisy but there is nothing wrong with this at all. In fact, it is what the FIA and smaller teams have been pushing for and McLaren and FI should be applauded.

Hey, it was Dennis who kept bleating on about his teams integrity while they where pinching other people's designs. Don't blame us for that one!

As for the hypocrisy, I don't think McLaren are being hypocritical. You could probably accuse Force India of a bit of hypocrisy but I don't really know what their position on customer cars was. The Midland/Spyker regime certainly didn't like it but the new management obviously have a different view.

The hypocrisy lies with the fans who kicked up such a stink over Sauber's "blue Ferrari" in 2003 but have no problem with McLaren having a close relationship with a smaller team. The two relationships are similar with the McLaren/FI relationship being perhaps even closer than the Ferrari/Sauber one.


Good excuse to have a go at McLaren for no reason again :D

I've been having a go at McLaren for over 20 years, escpecially since they ruined 1988. I don't need an excuse to have a go at them. The flimsiest pretense of an excuse is all I need! :D

[ioan]

If you insist :laugh:

I believe we were talking about McLaren and FI? Not the same old regurgitated rubbish from 2 years ago which has been discussed to death and has no relevance ;)

I missed that, have they done something bad in 2006 too? :eek: :?:

BTW before you start having a crisis (not a financial one :p : ) I don't care about McLaren as they were intending to do the same with Prodrive. My problem is with Force India who's actions mean that Super Aguri was dismissed earlier this year.

[Knock-on]

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other?

Degrees of separation ;)


No they don't. It didn't help Honda and it hasn't helped Red Bull. Honda still suck and their B team folded and Red Bull have seen their B team out perform them.

Either Ron is stupid and doing this to detrimentally affect McLarens chances otherwise he sees some benefit in this arrangement. Time will tell.


Again, ask Red Bull how much help STR have been in 2008.

I would say that RB have realised they have a pretty good car, that the Ferrari engine is worth half a dozen places on the grid and that Renault needed the proof that some engines were developing during the engine freeze where the Renault wasn't.

Then you have the feedback on tyres, set-up etc of 4 cars as opposed to 2 and all the testing over the year.

All looks pretty detrimental to me ;)


Hey, it was Dennis who kept bleating on about his teams integrity while they where pinching other people's designs. Don't blame us for that one!

It's members on here that keep bringing it up but hey, if that's what they want to continually discuss :yawn:


As for the hypocrisy, I don't think McLaren are being hypocritical. You could probably accuse Force India of a bit of hypocrisy but I don't really know what their position on customer cars was. The Midland/Spyker regime certainly didn't like it but the new management obviously have a different view.

Like you, I'm not particularly au fait with all these political machinations regarding FI, Midland, Spyker etc but some people seem to be hopping mad about it ;)


The hypocrisy lies with the fans who kicked up such a stink over Sauber's "blue Ferrari" in 2003 but have no problem with McLaren having a close relationship with a smaller team. The two relationships are similar with the McLaren/FI relationship being perhaps even closer than the Ferrari/Sauber one.

If I remember correctly, that was when B teams were not allowed yet Sauber brought out a virtual copy of the Ferrari to such an extent that the FIA had to confirm that there was a difference in the suspension or something therefore they were 2 entirely different cars :laugh:


I've been having a go at McLaren for over 20 years, escpecially since they ruined 1988. I don't need an excuse to have a go at them. The flimsiest pretense of an excuse is all I need! :D

Perhaps it's time to let it go. It's eating you up man. Take a deep breath, count to ten and ask how important something from 20 years ago really matters.

[CNR]

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/mallya-interested-in-buying-honda-f1-outfit_100134040.html
Mallya interested in buying Honda F1 outfit?

the owner of Force India, is said to have evinced interest in buying Honda

the tie-up with McLaren is sure to boost his sagging Formula One fortunes as in effect, Force India that will receive the drive train from the woking-based outfit besides other inputs, notably KERS system developed by McLaren, will be a virtual replica of the World championship winning British team.