Bunsen is a better driver than Champion Hamilton

[Valve Bounce]

..............and who says so?? none other than the bunsen himself : http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1226241140/formula_one/F1headlines/Button-better-than-Lewis/view.html

This is just beyond my comprehension, so I ask the wedges and the Beans to help me understand this interesting concept.

No ioan! I think we can let this one slip!!

[ArrowsFA1]

Another headline to grab attention :rolleyes:

Nowhere does Button say he's "a better driver". He doesn't even say he's "better at racing a bad car." He does say "you...become a better driver trying to work with a bad car" and he should know!!

As for saying he could have been WDC with the McLaren, I'd expect nothing less. If a driver doesn't believe in his own ability who else will?

[Donney]

Well said!

[Valve Bounce]

"Lewis is a worthy world champion but he wouldn't have done as well as me in my Honda.

"I mean, the guy has never been in a bad car. I think you learn from it and become a better driver trying to work with a bad car," he said.

I bet the top teams are now rushing to bunsen's yacht to find him and get his sig on a contract. OK!! maybe Frank isn't rushing, but he is much the wiser.

[jens]

Become a better driver in a bad car? Is this why Button lost to Barrichello for the first time during those three years they have spent together? :p :

[PolePosition_1]

He is quoted as saying:

"Lewis is a worthy world champion but he wouldn't have done as well as me in my Honda."

That would imply that he is better than Lewis.

Whilst I disagree, I'd say he's entitled to an opinion. And its totally subjective.

[ArrowsFA1]

He is quoted as saying:

"Lewis is a worthy world champion but he wouldn't have done as well as me in my Honda."

That would imply that he is better than Lewis.
I think that should be seen in the context of his comment that "the guy has never been in a bad car".

Button has plenty of experience of a "bad" F1 car. Hamilton has none. Therefore I think it's reasonable to suggest JB would have used that experience to his advantage should the two of them been driving a Honda. Whether he would have been better as a result...who knows :)

[CNR]

now what will happen when (IF) honda is a good car and he can not match it with his team mate

[Valve Bounce]

I think that should be seen in the context of his comment that "the guy has never been in a bad car".

Button has plenty of experience of a "bad" F1 car. Hamilton has none. Therefore I think it's reasonable to suggest JB would have used that experience to his advantage should the two of them been driving a Honda. Whether he would have been better as a result...who knows :)

Well, I once had a rental Korean small car which was absolutely shyte - I guess that makes me better than Hamilton too!!

[wedge]

He is quoted as saying:

"Lewis is a worthy world champion but he wouldn't have done as well as me in my Honda."

That would imply that he is better than Lewis.

Whilst I disagree, I'd say he's entitled to an opinion. And its totally subjective.

Racing drivers are arrogant and selfish to some extent. To some extent it is justifiable, considering Button has yet to re-sign with Honda, he's hardly going admit in public Hamilton is better.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well, I once had a rental Korean small car which was absolutely shyte - I guess that makes me better than Hamilton too!!
VB...the greatest lost talent of F1 :p :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

VB...the greatest lost talent of F1 :p :s mokin:

Yeah!! :(

[Zico]

How does driving a bad car make you a better driver?

Maybe hes suggesting..

You have to work far harder with finding a set-up and work/drive round flaws consequently getting to know the car better and broaden the depth of your different driving styles capability?

Hmm...

[F1boat]

A driver has to believe in his own ability. I am glad that Jenson hasn't lost his confidence after disastrous 2007 and 2008 season.

[BeansBeansBeans]

A driver has to believe in his own ability. I am glad that Jenson hasn't lost his confidence after disastrous 2007 and 2008 season.

I agree.

Due to a few disastrous career moves, his chances of ever becoming a regular race winner have dwindled.

If he loses his self-belief they'll disappear altogether.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The star in a reasonably priced car proves that Hamilton is faster than Button :P

[ArrowsFA1]

While it is assumed JB will stay with Honda...


Q. Are you hopeful of being around next season then?
JB: Yes. Nothing is sorted or signed but the team know how I feel and I think I know how the team feels. Hopefully we can sort something out soon.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72036

[raphael_2]

To be honest...I'd be worried about a drivers confidence if he came out publicly and stated that 'I'm definitely not as good as Lewis, if he was driving my car he'd do a much better job than what I could ever do!'

Honestly people....what do you expect the guy to say?!

How does driving a bad car make you a better driver?

Maybe hes suggesting..

You have to work far harder with finding a set-up and work/drive round flaws consequently getting to know the car better and broaden the depth of your different driving styles capability?

Hmm...

I too am not convinced, although fair play to Button for finding something positive about his past two seasons.

I believe that a poor car can, more often than not, stump a drivers development.

An example is Alesi. Was a fantastic talent, but somewhere in amongst the shopping-trolleys-made-out-of-angle-iron that Ferrari gave him to drive, it just seemed to bring out the worst (as in having to over-drive the things just to get them to move) in him as a driver.

Alesi never got the chance to fine-tune his race-craft. The only thing that brought any rewards was a head-down-and-charge approach, which whilst entertaining and emotionally endearing doesn't suit itself to the art of Grand Prix driving.

About the only person I can think of whose career wasn't truly skewered by driving duff cars was Mansell....and with him, only the Lotus 93T was in a league close to the F92 & F93 Ferrari's Alesi had to wrestle with.

[Valve Bounce]

To be honest...I'd be worried about a drivers confidence if he came out publicly and stated that 'I'm definitely not as good as Lewis, if he was driving my car he'd do a much better job than what I could ever do!'

Honestly people....what do you expect the guy to say?!

Keep his mouth shut on the subject. It beats insinuating that he is as good as if not better than Lewis Hamilton if he can't produce the goods. One can hardly blame anyone else for bunsen to be driving a shyte car - it is called "self infliction". I wonder why Ferrari or BMW or Renault havn't bothered to contact him for a drive.

I suppose it wouldn't do any harm if Junior or Sutil mentioned that they might not be as good as Lewis Hamilton. They know where they stand.

[wedge]

I too am not convinced, although fair play to Button for finding something positive about his past two seasons.

I believe that a poor car can, more often than not, stump a drivers development.

An example is Alesi. Was a fantastic talent, but somewhere in amongst the shopping-trolleys-made-out-of-angle-iron that Ferrari gave him to drive, it just seemed to bring out the worst (as in having to over-drive the things just to get them to move) in him as a driver.

Alesi never got the chance to fine-tune his race-craft. The only thing that brought any rewards was a head-down-and-charge approach, which whilst entertaining and emotionally endearing doesn't suit itself to the art of Grand Prix driving.

About the only person I can think of whose career wasn't truly skewered by driving duff cars was Mansell....and with him, only the Lotus 93T was in a league close to the F92 & F93 Ferrari's Alesi had to wrestle with.

What about Hakkinen? He had his fair share of bad cars before his 2 WDCs.

Perhaps its down to psychology and work rate?

Heidfeld has struggled against Kubica this year, Fisi could never get consistency to summon extra reserves in his Renault days. Button might be finding the situation he found himself this year soul destroy and ebbed away his confidence but he has the contract negotiations to keep him on his toes. At least last year he showed he has capability to polish a piece of turd when he scored some points during the second half of '07 season.

[Valve Bounce]

At least last year he showed he has capability to polish a piece of turd when he scored some points during the second half of '07 season.

Quite true - especially after Honda denied Super Aguri the use of the better performing rear wing that Super Aguri tested.

People, let me put it to you this way: "What has bunsen done in the past two years that would justify his claiming that he is better than or as good as any other driver on the grid?"

Based purely on performance and results, he'd be best to make no claims whatsoever. If, as wedge points out, that he is driving a turd of a car, and I don't dispute that, it is best to just say that he expects to perform better in the future and leave it at that.

[F1boat]

And why do you focus on the last two years? Because the Honda made a bad car and Jenson was unable to perform like he did in 2004 or 2006? Or simply because he is in F1 and Davidson is not and you seem to blame Button for that?

[Valve Bounce]

And why do you focus on the last two years? Because the Honda made a bad car and Jenson was unable to perform like he did in 2004 or 2006? Or simply because he is in F1 and Davidson is not and you seem to blame Button for that?

Au contraire; if he has done nothing significant in the last two years, and these are the only two years that Lewis Hamilton has been racing, then what is the point of saying anything? I never said that ant was better than bunsen, but without ant setting the car up for him, he ain't that good is he!!

[jas123f1]

It really should be interesting to see both Button and Hamilton in a Honda.. :D

[Valve Bounce]

OK!! let's be fair about this. So let me ask, Mr boat, "what has bunsen done or achieved in his entire career that would make you think that he is as good as Lewis Hamilton?

[jas123f1]

It really should be interesting to see both Button and Hamilton in a Honda.. :D

[ShiftingGears]

Quite true - especially after Honda denied Super Aguri the use of the better performing rear wing that Super Aguri tested.


Honda had no obligation to give parts to Super Aguri.

[Valve Bounce]

Honda had no obligation to give parts to Super Aguri.

Really!! then why did they let Super Aguri test that rear wing on their car. Then when Super Aguri found that it contributed to much better performance, Honda then instructed Super Aguri not to use that rear wing. Your use of the word "obligation" is interesting.

By the same token, it could be argued that Honda had no obligation to let Super Aguri use the Honda engine, nor their Honda drivers. Just think about it!!

[ShiftingGears]

Really!! then why did they let Super Aguri test that rear wing on their car. Then when Super Aguri found that it contributed to much better performance, Honda then instructed Super Aguri not to use that rear wing. Your use of the word "obligation" is interesting.

I don't know why. But Super Aguri didn't design their own parts. Honda designed the parts to give to Super Aguri - of no financial gain to Honda. Eventually it culminated in what happened at Turkey this year. Super Aguri were leeching off Honda, and Honda decided that enough was enough. So Honda had no obligation to supply Super Aguri the parts.

[F1boat]

Au contraire; if he has done nothing significant in the last two years, and these are the only two years that Lewis Hamilton has been racing, then what is the point of saying anything? I never said that ant was better than bunsen, but without ant setting the car up for him, he ain't that good is he!!

That's why Ant is a good test driver, like Alex Wurz or de la Rosa. About Lewis, as I said, a driver needs to believe in himself.

[ArrowsFA1]

OK!! let's be fair about this. So let me ask, Mr boat, "what has bunsen done or achieved in his entire career that would make you think that he is as good as Lewis Hamilton?
Not answering for Mr boat of course :p but when JB made his debut in F1 there were those who saw him as one of those rare talents who come along only once in a while - like Lewis.

He performed well in the Williams - the Belgian GP was a particular highlight - but then Williams made the choice to go for Montoya and farm Button out to Benetton. It's interesting to think what may have happened had he stayed with Williams.

I think 2004 showed us what Button could do. In a car that clearly was no match for the all-dominant Ferraris he was clearly the third best out there.

That's what he can do given the opportunity, but "as good as Lewis Hamilton"? I don't think so.

What about Hakkinen? He had his fair share of bad cars before his 2 WDCs.

I did say "more often than not".

To be honest, I'd forgotten about Hakkinen (must be something to do with the team he drove for) but, yes, he is a good example of a driver who bucked the trend.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't know why. But Super Aguri didn't design their own parts. Honda designed the parts to give to Super Aguri - of no financial gain to Honda. Eventually it culminated in what happened at Turkey this year. Super Aguri were leeching off Honda, and Honda decided that enough was enough. So Honda had no obligation to supply Super Aguri the parts.

You love to re-write history; you would do well to do a posthumous autobiography of Stalin, the great hero of Russia.

[Valve Bounce]

Not answering for Mr boat of course :p but when JB made his debut in F1 there were those who saw him as one of those rare talents who come along only once in a while - like Lewis.

He performed well in the Williams - the Belgian GP was a particular highlight - but then Williams made the choice to go for Montoya and farm Button out to Benetton. It's interesting to think what may have happened had he stayed with Williams.

I think 2004 showed us what Button could do. In a car that clearly was no match for the all-dominant Ferraris he was clearly the third best out there.

That's what he can do given the opportunity, but "as good as Lewis Hamilton"? I don't think so.

I have to agree with you on that last sentence. In comparison, when Lewis Hamilton made his debut in F1, many saw that he could match the then current World Champion. I think that 2007 showed us that had Ron Dennis not stuffed up, Lewis would have been champion. BUT, to make up for that, Lewis Hamilton won the championship in his second year in F1. Not Bad!!

[ShiftingGears]

You love to re-write history; you would do well to do a posthumous autobiography of Stalin, the great hero of Russia.

Fantastic way to add validity and justification to your own argument.

[Valve Bounce]

Fantastic way to add validity and justification to your own argument.

I am not making any argument here. Too tedious to go into detail once again why Super Aguri was formed, and how Taku and ant got to drive for that team.

[Big Ben]

I wouldn't be surprised if I'd found out there are some other f1 drivers thinking that. I'd say around 18.

[woody2goody]

It's all well and good saying he isn't as good as Hamilton, but can you prove that?

I think it's very difficult for anyone in F1 to prove they are better than anyone else.

[Bagwan]

Learn to play with a good guitar , and you can play it .
Learn to play on a Walmart special , and you can play any guitar .

"Boy Band" has matured into a better driver .

If Ross gives he and Rubinho a car , they will both shine .

If not , he is finished .

"If I had his car , I would be on the podium , too ." should be the words out of every drivers pie hole .

[ArrowsFA1]

It's all well and good saying he isn't as good as Hamilton, but can you prove that?
No :p It's just an opinion like the discussions comparing drivers from different eras. It's impossible to prove one way or another with any certainty.

[Valve Bounce]

It's all well and good saying he isn't as good as Hamilton, but can you prove that?

I think it's very difficult for anyone in F1 to prove they are better than anyone else.

I can't find any proof/evidence that bunsen is even close to Lewis Hamilton. Maybe we need a better telescope/microscope.

[Roamy]

..............and who says so?? none other than the bunsen himself : http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1226241140/formula_one/F1headlines/Button-better-than-Lewis/view.html

This is just beyond my comprehension, so I ask the wedges and the Beans to help me understand this interesting concept.

No ioan! I think we can let this one slip!!

Well actually you will never know unless Jens get a good car - but even then he will probably need JV to develop it for him

[F1boat]

This is not the point, Valve, although if you want to play the devil's advocate you can say that JV won the championship in his second year, like Lewis, and Button outscored JV when they were in the same team.
But the point is that Jenson has said that he thinks that in a car as fast as the McLaren he can do as well as Lewis did. Nothing wrong with that IMO. If he has said:
"I know that I can be a points-scorer at best", I'd have been concerned.

[Valve Bounce]

This is not the point, Valve, although if you want to play the devil's advocate you can say that JV won the championship in his second year, like Lewis, and Button outscored JV when they were in the same team.
But the point is that Jenson has said that he thinks that in a car as fast as the McLaren he can do as well as Lewis did. Nothing wrong with that IMO. If he has said:
"I know that I can be a points-scorer at best", I'd have been concerned.

This was my point, and perhaps you may have missed this post of mine: OK!! let's be fair about this. So let me ask, Mr boat, "what has bunsen done or achieved in his entire career that would make you think that he is as good as Lewis Hamilton?"

Bringing Jacques into this comparison is somewhat controversial, seeing that David Richards made no bones about the fact that he considered Jacques was being overpaid and that he wanted Jacques OUT of the team; to the extent that Takuma Sato announced that he would be racing in the last race in Japan before Jacques was even told he was fired.

My point here is, bunsen had absolutely no grounds to compare himself with Lewis Hamilton, and he would have been wiser to have kept his mouth shut.

[Roamy]

i don't think so valve
jens should keep his mouth open as he got dealt a sh!t hand. I don't even look at the comparison between Jens and RB - Jens is just trying to survive and knows he probably will - while RB knows he is toast and his only change to remain was to beat a heartless Jens. Brawn knows what is what and will probably right Jens next year

[Spoonbender]

Just for fun (and to wind up V.B.)

If Jenson had DC's drive last year, would he have out done Mark? :)

[Valve Bounce]

Just for fun (and to wind up V.B.)

If Jenson had DC's drive last year, would he have out done Mark? :)

Good point. But even if he had, it wouldn't show that he is as good as Lewis Hamilton though, would it!!

At the moment, I think teams like Renault, BMW, McLaren and Ferrari would prefer to look elsewhere than bunsen. Don't know about Frank - he looked a bit fazed when bunsen reneged on his deal.

A driver has to believe in his own ability. I am glad that Jenson hasn't lost his confidence after disastrous 2007 and 2008 season.

:up:

[markabilly]

My point here is, bunsen had absolutely no grounds to compare himself with Lewis Hamilton, and he would have been wiser to have kept his mouth shut.


???
Me thinks he has been taking lessons and following the path of a certain jedi......
to run harder and more his mouth when he not should, tis the mark of this Jedi, if a WC he would be....

Disappointed I be, for expectations much of strange talk,
the usual nonsense from the one true knight, now crowned, gushing forth, be it where?

Seems a strange silence upon mac land has fallen.......

[nigelred5]

I think the fact that Honda has essentially gone totally downward since Button has been at Honda as the primary driver says something about his ability to provide proper feedback for the team's designers. Sometimes a pig begets a pig.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I think the fact that Honda has essentially gone totally downward since Button has been at Honda as the primary driver says something about his ability to provide proper feedback for the team's designers. Sometimes a pig begets a pig.

I think that's a little bit of an over-simplification.

Even if Button's feedback is as poor as you suggest, it still wouldn't be enough of a factor to take a team from one end of the grid to the other.

[Valve Bounce]

I think that's a little bit of an over-simplification.

Even if Button's feedback is as poor as you suggest, it still wouldn't be enough of a factor to take a team from one end of the grid to the other.


Good point!! Who is to blame?? Off with his head!! :eek: