British sporting pride?

[Dave B]

I thought I'd stick this in Chit Chat as it's more of a general observation.

After the Olympics, where Team GB managed there best performance for a century, there were mutterings that our success had cost millions, was only in a few minority sports like swimming and cycling, and wouldn't benefit the nation as a whole. Indeed even with all that success there seems little apitite for hosting the Games in 2012.

Then at the weekend Lewis Hamilton became the youngest ever winner of the F1 World Championship and the first British winner since 1996. Celebrate good times come on, yes?

Well to listen to the moaning minnies on Jeremy Vine's show yesterday you'd think he'd won the local tiddlywinks competition, not the most highly valued prize in motorsport.

Some of the eejits were saying "he only drives a car", or "it's not as if he had to do much".

I was going to start this thread yesterday but reasoned that my anger was my own stupid fault for listening to the radio equivalent of the Daily Mail letters page.

Then today I read this headline in The Guardian:

"No flags in Stevenage - 'It's not like he's won X-Factor'" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/04/lewishamilton-formulaone2)

Please, somebody, tell me that we're not in a country where winning a glorified "talent" show by dint of having a bland voice and a brilliant sob-story is considered a bigger achievement than slogging your guts out for fifteen years to achieve your sporting dream.

[Daniel]

Caroline told me about that :mark:

I personally don't see why someone who runs faster than someone else or rides a bike faster is that great. I also think that F1 drivers (not just Lewis) are paid far too much. What about the people who work in hospitals, schools, in the army and for the police? If i'm being philosophical I don't really see why Lewis' achievement is so great. He didn't need to do it and it doesn't really make a great difference to people's lives in terms of saving lives and educating people or maintaining law and order. I firmly belive that drivers should get paid lots of money but sometimes you do wonder if they're worth quite as much money as they earn. Same could be said of musicians and actors of course. Putting my motorsport hat back on it's a great sporting achievement and he doesn't deserve those sort of things said about him.

P.S it's his car that won the race! Not him! :p

[Mark]

I think to compare sports with 'real' life is a mistake. Sport is sport and by definition is just entertainment.

I think some of the comments above so typify some of the public at large's attitude towards motorsport in general as being 'boring' or 'easy'.

Indeed up until 1994-ish I believed my parents who told me that Formula 1 was boring, you could watch the start and end but you'd never stay awake through the whole thing. Then I watched an entire Grand Prix for myself and have been hooked ever since. The problem, I believe, is ignorance.

Remember, it's cool to know nothing :p

[Daniel]

i know it's silly to compare sport with real life but I think my point is still a valid one. If F1 ceased to exist right now what would be the net impact on the world? Sure there would be one less thing to do on weekends but we'd get over it quickly enough. Bernie would have to find some other way of getting filthy rich but our lives wouldn't be a whole lot poorer. But if the police or hospitals ceased to exist what then?

Feel free to split this into a separate thread if you want to as it's not strictly what Dave is talking about, just don't put it in the F1 forum as i'll be called a racist and a Lewis hater for mentioning his name and then saying that racing drivers are overpaid :p

[Drew]

British sporting pride is nowhere as big as Spanish sporting pride. I live and mix with Spaniards and all I ever hear about is how great Fernando Alonso is and how many problems he's had to get over the last 2 years and how he doesn't moan and just gets on with it, because he's great and Spanish! I also probably shouldn't write some of the things they say about Hamilton or his dad :\

[Sarah]

On BBC Look East they were at Stevenage yesterday and they showed the staff putting posters up congratulating Lewis in the shop windows and the Council said they would like to do a civic reception/bus ride or get him to switch on the Xmas lights.

[BDunnell]

I'm rather glad we don't go too over-the-top and American about these things, but there are limits.

As regards the public perception of motorsport in general and F1 in particular, us enthusiasts have to understand that lots of people do find it boring - the 'it's just a load of cars going round a track' argument - and don't get where the excitement comes from. Nothing surprising about that.

[MrJan]

...get him to switch on the Xmas lights.

Next they'll be asking him to do panto :laugh:

Club before country for me anyway, the acheivment of Exeter City will also be celebrated more than England in football.

[Mark]

Council said they would like to do a civic reception/bus ride or get him to switch on the Xmas lights.

They wish!

[janneppi]

As regards the public perception of motorsport in general and F1 in particular, us enthusiasts have to understand that lots of people do find it boring - the 'it's just a load of cars going round a track' argument - and don't get where the excitement comes from. Nothing surprising about that.
I'd say it's very likely that most enthusiast find F1 races to be boring. ;)

[Donney]

British sporting pride is nowhere as big as Spanish sporting pride. I live and mix with Spaniards and all I ever hear about is how great Fernando Alonso is and how many problems he's had to get over the last 2 years and how he doesn't moan and just gets on with it, because he's great and Spanish! I also probably shouldn't write some of the things they say about Hamilton or his dad :\


I know exactly what you mean Drew but pleeeaaseee don't think we are all like that.

And there's also a trend here to say Alonso is to blame for everything wrong in the world I guess envy is an international problem.

[Tazio]

I think to compare sports with 'real' life is a mistake. Sport is sport and by definition is just entertainment.

I think some of the comments above so typify some of the public at large's attitude towards motorsport in general as being 'boring' or 'easy'.

Indeed up until 1994-ish I believed my parents who told me that Formula 1 was boring, you could watch the start and end but you'd never stay awake through the whole thing. Then I watched an entire Grand Prix for myself and have been hooked ever since. The problem, I believe, is ignorance.

Remember, it's cool to know nothing :p Racing by definition is competetion, not entertainment! ;)

[SOD]

Then today I read this headline in The Guardian:

"No flags in Stevenage - 'It's not like he's won X-Factor'" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/04/lewishamilton-formulaone2)

Please, somebody, tell me that we're not in a country where winning a glorified "talent" show by dint of having a bland voice and a brilliant sob-story is considered a bigger achievement than slogging your guts out for fifteen years to achieve your sporting dream.

lets face it, Hamilton earned more money this season than the X-factor judges (who are the real winners of the X-factor BTW) will do in their lifetimes.

as far as British sporting success, just remember the Atlanta olympics in 1996 when Team GB won zero gold medals, that was a meltdown and a half. The medal tally has gone up in every olympics since then.

[Mark]

I'll bet more people watch and vote in X-Factor than watch every grand prix.

Most people in the country will have heard of Lewis Hamilton, they may have even watched the last race. But outside of this forum what proportion of people will have watched every GP in 2008?

[Daniel]

Well i know for certain one of my co workers here would have watched all the gp's and another guy I used to work with will have watched all of them so perhaps not as few people as you think. Then again at least 3 people here watch xcraptor religiously :mark:

[SOD]

I'll bet more people watch and vote in X-Factor than watch every grand prix.

Most people in the country will have heard of Lewis Hamilton, they may have even watched the last race. But outside of this forum what proportion of people will have watched every GP in 2008?

Lewis' bird, claims that he has a great voice, maybe Lewis will do a skit on the Xfactor before the year is out ;)

[Hazell B]

But outside of this forum what proportion of people will have watched every GP in 2008?

Well under 5% of the population I'll bet.

You get the "he only drives a car" rubbish for any sport - on this very forum a load of people said Zara Phillips "only sits there, the horse does the work" for example. Narrow minds are everywhere. Got to live with that.

Either way, from what I've seen most of the UK is proud of the lad. My one reservation about him is his tax situation, which means I see him not so much as a UK champion (living elsewhere now) but just a damned good driver. After all, I didn't cheer Button on simple because he's a Brit :p :

[Rollo]

I thought I'd stick this in Chit Chat as it's more of a general observation.

Please, somebody, tell me that we're not in a country where winning a glorified "talent" show by dint of having a bland voice and a brilliant sob-story is considered a bigger achievement than slogging your guts out for fifteen years to achieve your sporting dream.

Have you noticed the Great British public acting... British? I fear that what you've run into is one of the quintessentially British traits, the art of self-effacement.

For you to notice this coming out of an institution as stayed and upright as Radio 2 (despite the goings on over the past week) is expected. On Five Live they were a bit more congratulatory but over on Radio 4, the whole deal was stated quite matter-of-factly.

Britain and British people are so used to being rubbish at every sport that we invented (like cricket, rugby and football) that we don't know how to react when God forbid any of us should win anything. It explains why the Barmy Army was so successful especially considering that England hadn't won the Ashes for so long.

[BeansBeansBeans]

lets face it, Hamilton earned more money this season than the X-factor judges (who are the real winners of the X-factor BTW) will do in their lifetimes.

I think Simon Cowell's bank manager would have something to say about that.

[Drew]

I know exactly what you mean Drew but pleeeaaseee don't think we are all like that.

And there's also a trend here to say Alonso is to blame for everything wrong in the world I guess envy is an international problem.

Donney, i'm slowly understanding the Spanish sense of humour. Antagonising people into an arguement by saying things that you know will annoy them! Slowly but surely!

[Donney]

That's true it is sometimes strange.

[fizzicist]

Dave - it's a reflection of the state of Britain as a whole these days really.

For the majority of the nation, 'average' is enough. In F1 terms, we're quite happy with finishing 6th or 7th. So long as we're not embarrassingly bad we're happy.

This is why the masses lap up the dreary pap that they get spoon fed on shows like the X factor. It's depressing to witness.

I was doing someone's appraisal at work and the year before they had expressed an interest in pushing for a promotion and taking on an office managers role to further their career etc. This time round, we've had a bumpy ride and she openly admitted that she didn't fancy it any more - too difficult. The truth of the matter, as is usually the case, is that people don't want to push themselves, they just want something for nothing.

One of the reasons we've not adopted Lewis to our hearts so much is because he is unlike this. He's demanding, driven and above all, immensely successful. For that reason I have massive respect and admiration for the guy - anyone who pushes themselves 'because it's there' should be celebrated.

Without people who push the envelope the world would be a very very dull place indeed. Everest would be unclimbed, the oceans unexplored, the poles unvisited, the moon just something in the sky, flight undiscovered, the car would not exist...

Average is not good enough.[/rant]

[Daniel]

Everest would be unclimbed.....[/rant]

There are different kinds of "driven" there's annoying Lewis style driven to the point where you're always right and never wrong and then there's driven like Sir Edmund was in that he was ambitious but respectful and well liked by all.

[BDunnell]

Dave - it's a reflection of the state of Britain as a whole these days really.

For the majority of the nation, 'average' is enough. In F1 terms, we're quite happy with finishing 6th or 7th. So long as we're not embarrassingly bad we're happy.

This is why the masses lap up the dreary pap that they get spoon fed on shows like the X factor. It's depressing to witness.

I think this is a highly revisionist view based on the sort of lazy 'we're going to the dogs' thinking that pervades right-wing journalism, if I'm honest with you. Britons have surely always been, shall we say, low-key about sporting success, more cynical than many of our foreign cousins about those in the public eye, and more ready to back the underdog. It would be surprising if we were anything but.



One of the reasons we've not adopted Lewis to our hearts so much is because he is unlike this. He's demanding, driven and above all, immensely successful. For that reason I have massive respect and admiration for the guy - anyone who pushes themselves 'because it's there' should be celebrated.

Without people who push the envelope the world would be a very very dull place indeed. Everest would be unclimbed, the oceans unexplored, the poles unvisited, the moon just something in the sky, flight undiscovered, the car would not exist...

But should we automatically respect the people who do all these things? I hope not, because I believe there are far more important qualities in a person than their level of 'success', however that's defined. Charles Lindbergh's solo trans-Atlantic feat was remarkable, for example, but he was an awful man — basically a Nazi. Therefore, I don't respect him. I think his feat was extremely impressive, but would go no further than that.

It is, no matter what some conventional wisdom might have people believe, perfectly possible to be very successful and a truly decent human being. I need that proving to me according to my own views and standards before I respect someone. This is why I honestly have no heroes in life.

As regards Lewis Hamilton, he doesn't deserve a lot of the flak he gets on a personal level, as on these forums, and he does deserve to be praised to the hilt for what he has achieved in F1, for by any standards — especially statistically — it is quite incredible. But none of this makes me feel especially positive towards him as an individual, for we probably know so little about his true persona.

[BDunnell]

There are different kinds of "driven" there's annoying Lewis style driven to the point where you're always right and never wrong and then there's driven like Sir Edmund was in that he was ambitious but respectful and well liked by all.

Let's not forget, though, that it is far harder to like and respect people in sport nowadays — at least, in my opinion — because they are often so young when they achieve success that their personalities aren't fully developed and they know nothing other than toeing the PR line, or they feel the need to carry on toeing a PR line and as a result say little of interest or come across as in some way 'cold'. Leaving aside the faults he exhibited as a driver, Michael Schumacher is a good example of the latter. Fantastic driver, but as a person I am entirely neutral towards him. He doesn't deserve a lot of the vitriol heaped upon him over the years, but on the other hand he has rarely uttered a thought-provoking word in my hearing.

[MrJan]

I also think that history tends to remember people a little fondly though. Take Winston Churchill who is consider a 'Great Brit' but was actually a bit of a See You Next Tuesday by some accounts. Also Joe Frazier has recently come out claiming that Ali was racist towards him.

Ultimately though I think that the real reason behind people not really hyping Lewis or even Andy Murray's recent success is that they are so driven that both come across as complete and utter cocks. I really, really rate Hamilton as a driver and believe that he has the makings of an F1 legend but I wouldn't really want to go for a pint with him, or many other champions. On the other hand I could quite happily go down the pub with someone like Rubens.

[fizzicist]

I think this is a highly revisionist view based on the sort of lazy 'we're going to the dogs' thinking that pervades right-wing journalism, if I'm honest with you.


Hmmm, I probably didn't write that in one of my better frames of mind, having just had an immensely depressing day at work. It was all getting a bit theory X!

My point is that winning an F1 championship is one of the toughest sporting achievements going. Very few people ever do it. Yet, only a few weeks afterwards despite none of us are in a position to pass judgement and have no access to the truth, we're all of an opinion that "X is selfish".

[Daniel]

Let's not forget, though, that it is far harder to like and respect people in sport nowadays — at least, in my opinion — because they are often so young when they achieve success that their personalities aren't fully developed and they know nothing other than toeing the PR line, or they feel the need to carry on toeing a PR line and as a result say little of interest or come across as in some way 'cold'. Leaving aside the faults he exhibited as a driver, Michael Schumacher is a good example of the latter. Fantastic driver, but as a person I am entirely neutral towards him. He doesn't deserve a lot of the vitriol heaped upon him over the years, but on the other hand he has rarely uttered a thought-provoking word in my hearing.

Michael was hardly the most charismatic and engaging of people I have to say. But he never came across as being quite as arrogant and headstrong as Lewis.

As you say Michael left me cold, Lewis leaves me annoyed by his arrogance and lack of respect for other drivers. He's not a horrible person by anyone's standards but he's nowhere near as enjoyable to see in an interview as Bourdais and Vettel.

[Daniel]

But should we automatically respect the people who do all these things? I hope not, because I believe there are far more important qualities in a person than their level of 'success', however that's defined. Charles Lindbergh's solo trans-Atlantic feat was remarkable, for example, but he was an awful man — basically a Nazi. Therefore, I don't respect him. I think his feat was extremely impressive, but would go no further than that.

It is, no matter what some conventional wisdom might have people believe, perfectly possible to be very successful and a truly decent human being. I need that proving to me according to my own views and standards before I respect someone. This is why I honestly have no heroes in life.

As regards Lewis Hamilton, he doesn't deserve a lot of the flak he gets on a personal level, as on these forums, and he does deserve to be praised to the hilt for what he has achieved in F1, for by any standards — especially statistically — it is quite incredible. But none of this makes me feel especially positive towards him as an individual, for we probably know so little about his true persona.

I really agree with this :up:

Lewis did well this year as a driver and he deserved is title and I respect him for this as a driver but what else has he done? Really! He dates that annoying woman from the Pussycat Dolls, he had that incredibly embarassing 'acting debut' last year and that seems to be about it? Sure I've never met the guy or spent a good deal of time with him but what else are people meant to base their opinions of him as a person on?

I much prefer guys like Gronholm, Loeb, Atkinson and so on, most of which had jobs and professions before they went rallying at a professional level. This means they're just a bit more rounded as people and far more personable.

From the few short chats I had with Chris Atkinson he was just like a lot of my friends back in Australia except for the fact he's a damn good rally driver. Marcus Gronholm even once made fun of me for being rather unshaven which was funny. Even funnier was seeing the late Colin McRae pissed as anything singing 500 miles in an Irish Pub back in Perth :) Perhaps if I met Lewis he'd come across like this, who knows? But that's not how he seems to come across when you see him on the television. I understand that he was brought up from a very early age to be an F1 driver and I feel sorry for him for not having a more "normal" life but he still acts the way he does and if someone doesn't like it then they don't like it.

[Daniel]

Also Joe Frazier has recently come out claiming that Ali was racist towards him.

Ultimately though I think that the real reason behind people not really hyping Lewis or even Andy Murray's recent success is that they are so driven that both come across as complete and utter cocks. I really, really rate Hamilton as a driver and believe that he has the makings of an F1 legend but I wouldn't really want to go for a pint with him, or many other champions. On the other hand I could quite happily go down the pub with someone like Rubens.

I've always thought Ali seemed a bit of a cock from what I've read and the interviews he did at the time.

Some people like a person with a big ego but not me :mark:

[fizzicist]

Perhaps if I met Lewis he'd come across like this, who knows? But that's not how he seems to come across when you see him on the television. I understand that he was brought up from a very early age to be an F1 driver and I feel sorry for him for not having a more "normal" life but he still acts the way he does and if someone doesn't like it then they don't like it.

But you only know what you see in the media - thats my whole point. We cast aspersions on people despite possessing almost no information of validity, with which to do so.

Secondly, he's in that job to drive quickly and win championships. And he's bloody good at that.

For the record though, those who have met hiim have all said he's very down to earth and has a lot of time for people, which contradicts the media presentation nicely!

Equally, when in a mega competitive scenario human beings by our nature tend to become arrogant and selfish - you need massive confidence and self belief to go out there and believe you are the best and you're going to win. If that makes you come across as a bit of a knob then so be it. You're there to win, not make friends.

Contrast Damon Hill's nature in interviews in mid-late 1996 to now for an example of what I mean.

When Schuey was racing, he wound me up something cruel because he just psychologically battered people to the extent of some downright dirty play. Since he's retired, you can't deny the guy is, from what little we see, fundamentally a decent chap and very likeable.

I'm struggling to think of an F1 champion in the last 20 years who didn't come across as a bit of a cock at the peak of their career....

[Dave B]

I'm struggling to think of an F1 champion in the last 20 years who didn't come across as a bit of a cock at the peak of their career....
Possibly Hakkinen, but otherwise I totally get your point.

[Daniel]

But you only know what you see in the media - thats my whole point. We cast aspersions on people despite possessing almost no information of validity, with which to do so.

Secondly, he's in that job to drive quickly and win championships. And he's bloody good at that.

For the record though, those who have met hiim have all said he's very down to earth and has a lot of time for people, which contradicts the media presentation nicely!

Equally, when in a mega competitive scenario human beings by our nature tend to become arrogant and selfish - you need massive confidence and self belief to go out there and believe you are the best and you're going to win. If that makes you come across as a bit of a knob then so be it. You're there to win, not make friends.

Contrast Damon Hill's nature in interviews in mid-late 1996 to now for an example of what I mean.

When Schuey was racing, he wound me up something cruel because he just psychologically battered people to the extent of some downright dirty play. Since he's retired, you can't deny the guy is, from what little we see, fundamentally a decent chap and very likeable.

I'm struggling to think of an F1 champion in the last 20 years who didn't come across as a bit of a cock at the peak of their career....

I agree mostly :) But it still doesn't make Lewis come across as any less of a cock :) We can only make judgements based on what we see of people. I know for a fact that a lot of people on this forum probably don't like me all that much from what they've seen of me on the forum or perhaps heard from some people who've met me. Is it their fault they haven't got to know me better or meet up with me in person? Not really.... it's my fault for coming across as I do. Just as it's Lewis' or any driver who comes across as a cock for coming across like that. Coupled with the fact that Lewis has left the UK to live in Switzerland early in his career he's done quite a lot to push people away from him and I don't think Mr Dennis has helped either. I started off as a Hamilton fan last year and I've just progressively become less and less of a Lewis fan.

I really don't think you need masses of self confidence and self belief to win. I think this is just an F1 thing or perhaps something that the sports psychologists tell the drivers. Watch a Sebastien Loeb interview and in spite of the fact that he's obviously the best driver in the sport in the best car he comes across as a guy who feels that he'll need to fight to the bitter end for each rally win. Andy Priaulx comes across similarly also.

Motorsport history is fully of unpopular champions, it just happens that there is now a british one.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'm struggling to think of an F1 champion in the last 20 years who didn't come across as a bit of a cock at the peak of their career....

As someone once said, if you've got to sit next to an F1 driver on a flight from London to Sydney, make sure it's a No.2 :p

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Possibly Hakkinen, but otherwise I totally get your point.

Hakkinen is the type of guy you would like to go on a night out with a group of people. He wouldn't say much, but what he did say would be hilarious!

Sorry....carry on........

[Daniel]

Hakkinen is the type of guy you would like to go on a night out with a group of people. He wouldn't say much, but what he did say would be hilarious!

Sorry....carry on........
You could take any Finn on a night out and have the same result :p Finns are very economical with words but still manage to be bloody funny :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

You could take any Finn on a night out and have the same result :p Finns are very economical with words but still manage to be bloody funny :)

Who's funnier? Gronholm or Hakkinen?

[Daniel]

Who's funnier? Gronholm or Hakkinen?
I mean ANY Finn. My pick of those two would be Gronholm though.

[Bezza]

The story sums up life in Britain at the moment.

Winner a glorified singing contest by crying the most along with fixed voting puts you above the likes of Hamilton, Hoy, Adlington, etc who have actually worked hard over the last 15 years to get where they are.

Its the naivety of people that winds me up. My girlfriend was the same - "F1 is boring though, why do you watch it" is what she used to say. Now, after actually watching a race, she was cowering behind the sofa shouting "come on Lewis!" on the last lap in Brazil!

[Daniel]

she was cowering behind the sofa shouting "come on Lewis!" on the last lap in Brazil!

You do get up to some strange things Bezza :p

[ArrowsFA1]

Then today I read this headline in The Guardian:

"No flags in Stevenage - 'It's not like he's won X-Factor'" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/04/lewishamilton-formulaone2)

Please, somebody, tell me that we're not in a country where winning a glorified "talent" show by dint of having a bland voice and a brilliant sob-story is considered a bigger achievement than slogging your guts out for fifteen years to achieve your sporting dream.
For some reason I'm reminded of Tony Hancock (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9QfHvKO3vwc)'s "The Blood Donor":

"There's Adam Faith earning ten times as much as the Prime Minister. Is that right? IS THAT RIGHT? I suppose it all depends on what your politics are and whether you like Adam Faith or not."

[fizzicist]

I Watch a Sebastien Loeb interview and in spite of the fact that he's obviously the best driver in the sport in the best car he comes across as a guy who feels that he'll need to fight to the bitter end for each rally win. Andy Priaulx comes across similarly also.



The difference here is that until about a week ago, nobody except Priaulx had won the WTCC. Loeb has been similarly dominant.

That brings with it a whole different mindset where you've conclusively proven yourself to be unbeatable.

I'm not trying to make a resolute defence of Lewis, he does come across as being pretty arrogant at times, but it comes with the territory. I'm less interested in the personalities than most as well I suppose - I'm more interested in what they do on the track and some of the psychological gamesmanship played out.

On that basis Lewis is pretty fascinating and enjoyable to watch. The way he broke Alonso's head last year was impressive and the way he left so many people with their self esteem in tatters in GP2 was very special too - especially Premat.

[fizzicist]

Oh and for the record, in my opinion this years greatest sporting achievement/triumph was that of Rebecca Romero...

[Daniel]

I think the thing that hurt Alonso last year was Ron not supporting him. He'd have had a title last year if they'd supported him and I think the fact that Ron didn't give him the support he should have given really hurt Alonso as I think it would hurt anyone who was capable of winning a title but had to work against their own team.

I don't think Priaulx and Loeb are only nice because they've been dominant, I think that's very much off the mark!!!!! I think it's no more than a coincidence. You only have to look at Bourdais and Vettel as just two examples to see that there are some nice guys in Formula 1. I would say Heidfeld, Massa, Vettel, Bourdais, Webber and DC (when not threatening to beat people up) all come across as nice guys.

When it comes to who you support I think it's very difficult for personality to play a part.

[fizzicist]

Bourdais was a full on cock in Champcar though...

[ShiftingGears]

Bourdais was a full on cock in Champcar though...

I thought that was a lot to do with his frustration of being the big fish in the dwindling pond, plus being often crashed into.

[BDunnell]

I really don't think you need masses of self confidence and self belief to win. I think this is just an F1 thing or perhaps something that the sports psychologists tell the drivers. Watch a Sebastien Loeb interview and in spite of the fact that he's obviously the best driver in the sport in the best car he comes across as a guy who feels that he'll need to fight to the bitter end for each rally win. Andy Priaulx comes across similarly also.

Andy Priaulx is an interesting one. I remember reading an interview with him before the start of his first full BTCC season in 2002 with Honda, in which he was asked what his biggest failing as a driver was and he replied with something like, 'Being too nice and letting people walk all over me'. I thought this rather an extraordinary thing for a young racing driver to say. Well, unless he's had a massive change of personality, it hasn't done him any harm.

[BDunnell]

I would say Heidfeld, Massa, Vettel, Bourdais, Webber and DC (when not threatening to beat people up) all come across as nice guys.

Let's not forget Barrichello here either.



When it comes to who you support I think it's very difficult for personality to play a part.

Maybe, although it surely does. I don't support any one driver or team, but, for example, it was hard not to be delighted by Vettel's enthusiasm, which will have endeared him to many.