Glock/Toyota paid off to slow on the last lap?[merged]

[bowers]

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

[yodasarmpit]

Yes, that was obviously the only explanation, nothing to do with dry tyres on a wet track.

Damn, it was exciting though.

[Robinho]

check Trullis last lap time (also a 1m44sec) - the toyotas were the only ones to stay on drys, and it gained Glock a couple of places, but was just too wet.

[Mifune]

Gentlemen, start your excuses!

[Knock-on]

Gentlemen, start your excuses!

UFO's. What about the UFO's!!

[Ian McC]

UFO's. What about the UFO's!!

Dammit I was going to blame them as well!

[Daniel]

I personally don't think the track was that wet but who really knows?

[gravity]

Wait 'till the stewards dock Lewis with 25s for not securing his steering wheel after the race!

[ArrowsFA1]

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.
Well, fish live in water and the simple reason was dry tyres on a wet track don't stick :p :

[bowers]

There was no evidence of it raining harder on that last lap. The Toyota of Glock was pulling faster/equal times than Lewis up until that final lap. How can you deny that there is a possibility of something like that happening? There are millions perhaps billions of dollars at stake, I think it's foolish to think that something like that can not happen until we see some evidence of it not happening. It's a possibility and I expect someone will say something in the press soon, probably Alonso. Obviously you'd need to see the on-board or telemetry of Glock to get a good idea.

[Mickey T]

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?

there's been enough of this rot all year.

if you're not aware enough to see that both toyotas were on slicks (and i even predicted to my GP buddies, when everyone pitted, that toyota or bmw were most likely to stay out), then don't bother commenting.

it rained hard at one end of the circuit. he had no grip. his lap time on the last lap was comparable to his team mate's, also on dry tyres.

sometimes, it happens that way.

he did well to finish sixth because, if you examine it, he lost a further six or seven seconds on the straight sprint from there to the flag, so almost half the slower lap time you're talking about happened after hamilton overtook him.

if you want an inquiry, you could also ask what the lapped BMW was doing joining the fight for fifth between hamilton and vettel, but that wouldn't suit the argument, would it?

[MrJan]

Suspicious move, but everyone was fine with Kimi moving over the other week, why should it matter if it's a different team?

Glock was certainly slow all the way up the hill so might have had a problem but the only thing we can do is wait for the official word from Toyota.

[Knock-on]

There was no evidence of it raining harder on that last lap. The Toyota of Glock was pulling faster/equal times than Lewis up until that final lap. How can you deny that there is a possibility of something like that happening? There are millions perhaps billions of dollars at stake, I think it's foolish to think that something like that can not happen until we see some evidence of it not happening. It's a possibility and I expect someone will say something in the press soon, probably Alonso. Obviously you'd need to see the on-board or telemetry of Glock to get a good idea.

You're not ioans ugly and rather dense cousin are you?

Obviously Toyota are worried about the credit crunch and are looking to sell everything to Mercedes and retire from f1. That would explain it :p

[Robinho]

There was no evidence of it raining harder on that last lap. The Toyota of Glock was pulling faster/equal times than Lewis up until that final lap. How can you deny that there is a possibility of something like that happening? There are millions perhaps billions of dollars at stake, I think it's foolish to think that something like that can not happen until we see some evidence of it not happening. It's a possibility and I expect someone will say something in the press soon, probably Alonso. Obviously you'd need to see the on-board or telemetry of Glock to get a good idea.

no evidence apart form the rain you mean, and the slow sector times all lap, virtually identical to the other car on drys.

why in the world would Toyota ever even consider accepting a bribe, even if you entertain the thought that one was offered.

i suggest you check the splits on the last lap, and the fact that it was soaking and dark by the time the cars got round the slowing down lap

[Somebody]

Trulli, as has been said, also slowed on the last lap and lost a place. Glock's last lap was 1:44.731 (sector 1: 24.8/s2: 54.7/s3:25.0); Trulli's last lap was 1:44.800 (s1: 26.1/s2: 55.7/s3: 22.8)

Both Toyotas, indeed, ended up.... still where they would have been or better than if they had stopped for wet tyres. (Trulli ended up where he would have been, Glock was one place better). It may not have looked like it, but they still won the gamble even with their shocking final laps.

[Easy Drifter]

And the CIA shot John F Kennedy.
Good grief. Charlie Brown.

[rickos]

Ferrari paid off Glock. They had money ready to pay off stewards, etc. and in all the confusion at the end they paid the wrong guy. Looks good on 'em.

[bowers]

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?

there's been enough of this rot all year.

if you're not aware enough to see that both toyotas were on slicks (and i even predicted to my GP buddies, when everyone pitted, that toyota or bmw were most likely to stay out), then don't bother commenting.

it rained hard at one end of the circuit. he had no grip. his lap time on the last lap was comparable to his team mate's, also on dry tyres.

sometimes, it happens that way.

he did well to finish sixth because, if you examine it, he lost a further six or seven seconds on the straight sprint from there to the flag, so almost half the slower lap time you're talking about happened after hamilton overtook him.

if you want an inquiry, you could also ask what the lapped BMW was doing joining the fight for fifth between hamilton and vettel, but that wouldn't suit the argument, would it?

Try reading, nowhere in this thread have I said Glock was on rains... it's common knowledge he was on dry tires on his last stint. He was setting faster lap times on all but that last lap on his dry tires!!! Put your bias aside and think about it... at this point in time we don't know if he went off track (also a high possibility) but if he didn't, losing 15+ seconds on the last lap to a guy that was slower/equal to you can be considered suspicious right now.


Also Kubica joining the battle hampered Vettel way more than Hamilton as he actually fought with Vettel and casually strolled past Hamilton in an attempt to get his lap back (you know incase the safety car came out it would make a lot of sense to do that), but that is an absolute non-issue so why you're even bringing it up confuses me.

[N. Jones]

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?

there's been enough of this rot all year.

if you're not aware enough to see that both toyotas were on slicks (and i even predicted to my GP buddies, when everyone pitted, that toyota or bmw were most likely to stay out), then don't bother commenting.

it rained hard at one end of the circuit. he had no grip. his lap time on the last lap was comparable to his team mate's, also on dry tyres.

sometimes, it happens that way.

he did well to finish sixth because, if you examine it, he lost a further six or seven seconds on the straight sprint from there to the flag, so almost half the slower lap time you're talking about happened after hamilton overtook him.

if you want an inquiry, you could also ask what the lapped BMW was doing joining the fight for fifth between hamilton and vettel, but that wouldn't suit the argument, would it?

:up:

[Daniel]

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?

there's been enough of this rot all year.

if you're not aware enough to see that both toyotas were on slicks (and i even predicted to my GP buddies, when everyone pitted, that toyota or bmw were most likely to stay out), then don't bother commenting.

it rained hard at one end of the circuit. he had no grip. his lap time on the last lap was comparable to his team mate's, also on dry tyres.

sometimes, it happens that way.

he did well to finish sixth because, if you examine it, he lost a further six or seven seconds on the straight sprint from there to the flag, so almost half the slower lap time you're talking about happened after hamilton overtook him.

if you want an inquiry, you could also ask what the lapped BMW was doing joining the fight for fifth between hamilton and vettel, but that wouldn't suit the argument, would it?

Most people know very well how dry tyres and a wet track work but it just seemed like Glock basically left the door open for Hamilton. Who knows. Perhaps his tyres just went off but he was very slow around the last couple of corners. As with a lot of these things it would be very difficult to prove anything of course :) I think it's a very fair view to have, just as I can perfectly understand why people are saying that it was just the wrong tyres on a track that was a bit wet. Who knows but I think the OP has a valid point :)

[markabilly]

Glock wants to drive in HK's car next year or so, and was demonstrating his "team skills".....no sire he will not complain about being required to Q with heaveirer tanks to stay out of LH's way

[markabilly]

Most people know very well how dry tyres and a wet track work but it just seemed like Glock basically left the door open for Hamilton. Who knows. Perhaps his tyres just went off but he was very slow around the last couple of corners. As with a lot of these things it would be very difficult to prove anything of course :) I think it's a very fair view to have, just as I can perfectly understand why people are saying that it was just the wrong tyres on a track that was a bit wet. Who knows but I think the OP has a valid point :)


NO Doubt...someone needs to check his emails, driver data and radio comunocations....on the other hand, no MAC for Vettel anytime sooner

[MrJan]

Try reading, nowhere in this thread have I said Glock was on rains... it's common knowledge he was on dry tires on his last stint. He was setting faster lap times on all but that last lap on his dry tires!!! Put your bias aside and think about it... at this point in time we don't know if he went off track (also a high possibility) but if he didn't, losing 15+ seconds on the last lap to a guy that was slower/equal to you can be considered suspicious right now.


Also Kubica joining the battle hampered Vettel way more than Hamilton as he actually fought with Vettel and casually strolled past Hamilton in an attempt to get his lap back (you know incase the safety car came out it would make a lot of sense to do that), but that is an absolute non-issue so why you're even bringing it up confuses me.

Why don't you put your bias aside and see that Glock's team mate was just as slow.

As for Kubica, he shouldn't have been involved at that time. If the SC had come out then the race probably would have finished behind it meaning that it would have made no difference, or lapped cars would be allowed to pass and join the back of the snake.

[bowers]

no evidence apart form the rain you mean, and the slow sector times all lap, virtually identical to the other car on drys.

why in the world would Toyota ever even consider accepting a bribe, even if you entertain the thought that one was offered.

i suggest you check the splits on the last lap, and the fact that it was soaking and dark by the time the cars got round the slowing down lap

Okay then prove the evidence that it rained more on the last lap. What are you a Sao Paulo meterologist? I understand the Toyota's were both slow and I understand how that supports your position right now but that's not conclusive to me.

As for bribes in F1? Are you kidding me? There are so many many reasons why team or individuals could accept bribes on F1, and I should hope you would know that. It could be money, it could be engineering, it could information on other teams... who knows but there is fuel for bribes all over F1. It's probably happened a bunch of times and I'm not saying it happened here, it's just the framework for it to exist is there in my eyes. I'll reserve my judgement until I see something conclusive but I highly expect something to be said on Ferrari's behalf... you know how they are.

[bowers]

Why don't you put your bias aside and see that Glock's team mate was just as slow.

As for Kubica, he shouldn't have been involved at that time. If the SC had come out then the race probably would have finished behind it meaning that it would have made no difference, or lapped cars would be allowed to pass and join the back of the snake.

Let me be clear, I'm not saying this has happened. I'm not saying it didn't happen either... we trully have to wait and see. It's all speculation at this point.

[Shifter]

A half-lap before Massa began the last lap I started seeing the guys who had changed to the inters start to slip and slide under accelleration. It was that close that the grip really started to go. Knowing full well Glock was on dry tires, as Massa was approaching the chequred I was screaming to get some idea where Timo Glock was on track and how fast he was going. To be honest I was wondering if I'd see a wrecked Toyota on the side as the cameras followed Hamilton around on the final lap. To me, seeing Glock (getting passed) in the last corner was amazing but not entirely suprising.

[CNR]

UFO's. What about the UFO's!!
i have seen a ufo

but why on the last lap when they had run about 4 laps after the rain at a higher speed

[truefan72]

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?

there's been enough of this rot all year.

if you're not aware enough to see that both toyotas were on slicks (and i even predicted to my GP buddies, when everyone pitted, that toyota or bmw were most likely to stay out), then don't bother commenting.

it rained hard at one end of the circuit. he had no grip. his lap time on the last lap was comparable to his team mate's, also on dry tyres.

sometimes, it happens that way.

he did well to finish sixth because, if you examine it, he lost a further six or seven seconds on the straight sprint from there to the flag, so almost half the slower lap time you're talking about happened after hamilton overtook him.

if you want an inquiry, you could also ask what the lapped BMW was doing joining the fight for fifth between hamilton and vettel, but that wouldn't suit the argument, would it?
:up:

[Easy Drifter]

1. Glock and Trulli did a good job to even stay on the wet track on dries, better known as slicks. Anybody who has been caught in rain on slicks knows it is akin to driving on black ice on regular tires, something every Cdn. should and had better understand.
All you have to do is remember the carnage in previous races when sudden showers caught everyone out or when someone went to slicks too soon.

2. How in the world would McLaren communicate with Toyota and Toyota with Glock in the course of, to be generous 2 laps, without the whole world knowing. Until Vettel passed Hamilton it didn't matter. Team radios are monitored and pit boards watched.

3. 1 point in the constuctors championship is worth millions.

Please think about it before we have anymore nonsense.

[CNR]

I was fighting as hard as I could, says Glock
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/03/formulaone-motorsports

Many people will be praised for helping Lewis Hamilton become formula one champion but prior to yesterday, few would have imagined Timo Glock being among that group. The Toyota driver, however, has probably become the second most popular racing driver in Britain following his slip on the final corner of the final lap at Interlagos which allowed Hamilton to overtake him and, in turn, take the title.


"It was raining quite badly and it was just impossible on the last lap," said Glock. "I was fighting as hard as I could but it was so difficult to just keep the car on the track and I lost positions right at the end of the lap.

[CNR]

what do you read in to this?


http://motoring.asiaone.com/Motoring/Motorworld/Story/A1Story20081103-97970.html

Glock almost caught us high and dry: Dennis

Team chief Ron Dennis admitted Sunday that McLaren were caught out by Timo Glock's decision to stay on dry tyres at the end of the Brazilian Grand Prix

[Ranger]

Stupid rumour, stupid thread.

If Glock hadn't gambled on drys then Massa had no chance in the last 5 laps.
No chance.

Anti-McLaren conspirators (whoever they are on this occasion) should be holding Glock in high praise for giving Massa at least half a chance of the title up until the final corners.

And giving us a brilliant conclusion to the title.

[Rollo]

"I was on dry tyres at the end of the race when it was raining quite badly and it was just impossible on the last lap. I was fighting as hard as I could but it was so difficult to just keep the car on the track and I lost positions right at the end of the lap. Finishing in the top six is a decent result for me because I'd been struggling with the car earlier in the weekend but we were very close to fourth place so I am a bit disappointed. It's the end of my first season with Toyota and I'm happy with it as a whole. It was not easy for me early on but we improved the car a lot and I also improved myself during the year. Since Hockenheim it's been positive for me; beating my target of 20 points and finishing on the podium as well is a good achievement. Now we have to work even harder for next year to make another step forward."
http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/en/gp2008/18_brazil/race.html

Is someone going to accuse Toyota themselves of bias?

I don't think that it matters much to Toyota who wins the driver's title - they don't buy customer engines off of anyone and they don't supply Toyota engines/engineering to either Ferrari or McLaren.

This was a case of a gamble that very nearly came off for them... and failed.

[Easy Drifter]

To me it is clear. They expected Glock (and Trulli) to do what everyone else did. Come in for tires. If the rain had held off for another lap or not come down quite so hard the gamble would have paid off and Glock would have finished in front of Hamilton AND Vettel. That would have increased Toyota's funding for next year by several million.

[CNR]

Stupid rumour, stupid thread.

If Glock hadn't gambled on drys then Massa had no chance in the last 5 laps.
No chance.

Anti-McLaren conspirators (whoever they are on this occasion) should be holding Glock in high praise for giving Massa at least half a chance of the title up until the final corners.

And giving us a brilliant conclusion to the title.

F1 Breaking News - Glock Was High
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s6i43164

[truefan72]

http://www.toyota-f1.com/public/en/gp2008/18_brazil/race.html

Is someone going to accuse Toyota themselves of bias?

I don't think that it matters much to Toyota who wins the driver's title - they don't buy customer engines off of anyone and they don't supply Toyota engines/engineering to either Ferrari or McLaren.

This was a case of a gamble that very nearly came off for them... and failed.
...and actually worked out for Glock, who finished 1 place higher than he would have if he came in and changed to wets. This stupid insinuation of conspiracy is simply absurd and is born out of frustration rather than reality.

[Powered by Cosworth]

http://s1.subirimagenes.com/imagen/1386821hamilton-f1.gif

Made me laugh.

[janneppi]

Lolz.

There was a mention that Glock wanted to come for a tyre change for the last lap, but the team told him not to because there were already people on the pit lane. ;)

[F1boat]

http://s1.subirimagenes.com/imagen/1386821hamilton-f1.gif

Made me laugh.

ROFL!
But even if it is true, it's part of the game.

[christophulus]

Of all the things that could be said about that race, I never thought this would be one of them! McLaren paid off Toyota? Got a bank transfer done on the final lap did they? You can see why the world's largest car manufacturer would be strapped for cash and accept bailouts :p

OK, how about this baseless rumour. Ferrari paid Kubica to unlap himself and mess up Hamilton's race :rolleyes:

[wmcot]

oh, hell.

can't someone just win and someone just lose the championship around here?



No, it's time to start the off-season complaining, conspiracies and "ifs" :)

[WSRfan82]

o god

if u look at glocks car as he pulls away goin up the hill you will clearly see he was wiggling allover the place havin probs getin his tyres to grip.

im personly gutted massa didnt win it but im happy a brit did and so should all of you.

hamilton drive fabtastic all season so congrats to him for making a dream come true

all as did massa maybe 2009 will be massa year.

championship was settled in a fantastic race full of drama and racing end of

role on 2009 season

[wmcot]

Of all the things that could be said about that race, I never thought this would be one of them! McLaren paid off Toyota? Got a bank transfer done on the final lap did they?

Maybe they used PayPal??? ;)

I'm not a Hamilton fan and I was hoping for Massa, but the season couldn't have ended with any more suspense!

As for Glock (and Trulli), I suspect that he had been on his dries for awhile and they had probably lost what little traction they had. You wouldn't need more rain on the last lap, just less grip. Or, is that too simple?

[aryan]

Try reading, nowhere in this thread have I said Glock was on rains... it's common knowledge he was on dry tires on his last stint. He was setting faster lap times on all but that last lap on his dry tires!!!

Because the rain started falling down heavily and the track was suddenly too wet for slicks?

Some people just feed on conspiracies :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

I can reveal, without any fear of contradiction, that Tony Soprano made Glock an offer that was too good to refuse.

[Mickey T]

Try reading, nowhere in this thread have I said Glock was on rains... it's common knowledge he was on dry tires on his last stint. He was setting faster lap times on all but that last lap on his dry tires!!! .

well, i was reading. it just seemed that, instead of a conspiracy theory, the bleeding obvious needed to be stated. Occum's Razor (the hypothesis containing the fewest assumptions will almost certainly be the correct one) and all that.


Put your bias aside and think about it... at this point in time we don't know if he went off track (also a high possibility) but if he didn't, losing 15+ seconds on the last lap to a guy that was slower/equal to you can be considered suspicious right now. .

My bias? Against whom? Against what? i take up a contrary position to you, ergo i am biased? god, what is it with this site and the inability to think before posting? try Occum's Razor again. you're making assumptions other than the obvious one: you're wrong.

I admit it. i am biased. biased against people who don't think before they post.

if you knew glock was setting fast times, you had access to F1's site or some other live timing site, in which case you could see his splits with his team mate. trulli had no interest in slowing down on the last lap, neither did glock.

dry tyres work reasonably in light wet, until they lose temperature (and, of course, until the standing water becomes more prevalent), then you are in a no-win downward spiral. the cooler weather and the standing water and the lower lateral grip levels and lighter brake loads all conspire to drag the tyre temp down and you cannot get it back again.

i suspect this is what happened to toyota as the rain got heavier.


Also Kubica joining the battle hampered Vettel way more than Hamilton as he actually fought with Vettel and casually strolled past Hamilton in an attempt to get his lap back (you know incase the safety car came out it would make a lot of sense to do that), but that is an absolute non-issue so why you're even bringing it up confuses me.

the way hamilton moved for RK left a door ajar for vettel, who did a superb job to take it. a superstar of the future.

and, wow. on the second last lap RK was gambling on a safety car? i know kubica and he's not that stupid. I know Mario Theissen and he's not that stupid, either...

...that leaves one of you.

[Valve Bounce]

Mickey!! why do you try to fight ignorant stupidity with reason?

janeppi, please not: I am directing my thoughts at the post, not the poster.

[philipbain]

Bridgestone grooves with zero tempreture = zero grip, its a simple equation which explains Glocks pace or lack there of at the end of the grand prix, it started to rain much more heavilly in the last lap (with a full on mass deluge after the race). A common misconception is that the reason that dry tyres don't work on a wet track is due to aquaplaning, which is nonesense, as in an aquaplaning situation not even wet tyres work!!

The truth is that dry tyres are designed to build up heat on a dry track, on a damp surface they don't work because the damp track surface cools the surface of the rubber and there isnt enough movement in the tread to build up heat, wet tyres have blocks between the tread patterns that move around to create heat, which explains why wet tyres on a dry track go off very quickly, they get massively overheated because the dry track surface is warmer and has no water to cool the tyres down. As dry F1 tyres have a relatively small optimum operating window as far as tempreture is concerned, if you fall away from that and you are driving on a surface that can't give you the tempreture back you see a dramatic drop-off in performance, ala Glock in Brazil. Case closed.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Bridgestone grooves with zero tempreture = zero grip, its a simple equation which explains Glocks pace or lack there of at the end of the grand prix, it started to rain much more heavilly in the last lap (with a full on mass deluge after the race). A common misconception is that the reason that dry tyres don't work on a wet track is due to aquaplaning, which is nonesense, as in an aquaplaning situation not even wet tyres work!!

The truth is that dry tyres are designed to build up heat on a dry track, on a damp surface they don't work because the damp track surface cools the surface of the rubber and there isnt enough movement in the tread to build up heat, wet tyres have blocks between the tread patterns that move around to create heat, which explains why wet tyres on a dry track go off very quickly, they get massively overheated because the dry track surface is warmer and has no water to cool the tyres down. As dry F1 tyres have a relatively small optimum operating window as far as tempreture is concerned, if you fall away from that and you are driving on a surface that can't give you the tempreture back you see a dramatic drop-off in performance, ala Glock in Brazil. Case closed.Quite right, it is nothing we haven't seen before.

I can't believe that people would even go so far as to suggest it wasn't really raining!! I saw it.

[markabilly]

it was raining, but Glock just could not handle it....much like Trulli earlier proved (and through most of his career) he could not handle it.....

But he was really trying to prove he could be LH's lapdog for the next Mac opening.....unlike SV

[Mickey T]

FFS Markabilly, he was just trying to stay on the road!

he said later he had no idea he was the keystone in the title race, so how that translates into helping hamilton i have no idea.

his lap time was no different to his team mate's and, given nobody else was on dry tyres, he's the only valid comparison.

Toyota didn't make a mistake by leaving him on dry tyres. It might have made him look silly at the end, but Toyota moved up one place because of it and that extra point is worth serious money. It was a very smart move.

Oh, and last point in Kubica unlapping himself: real good thinking, because in a race where he struggled to pass a braking point, he was thinking that in half a lap he could catch and pass Kimi, Alonso and Massa to get back on the lead lap? Please, people, think a bit before posting!

how can so many people look reason and reality in the face and come up with conspiracy?

only possible answer: because you want to.

why? because it's easier than doing what Massa so classily did: sucking it up and losing with dignity.

He is to be applauded. some folks here should be derided. if only the mods would let us...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[veeten]

He lost over 15 seconds on that last lap and seemingly slowed down right at the very last corner to a snails pace. Does anyone else find that worthy of some kind of inquest. It smells extremely fishy.

bowers :arrow: :bigcry:

solution:

2075

any questions?... ;) :p

[gravity]

The dry "grooved" tyres have been known to work in damp conditions before, but they would have to have a lot of groove left (as explained earlier, the tread moving around creates a lot of tyre heat and keeps the tyres in the operating window). As far as I remember, Glock changed to a 1 stop strategy before half distance. His tread must have been almost worn through (extra tyre wear because the earlier rain kept washing the rubber off, leaving a rough road surface throughout the race). With rubber that needs a higher operating temperature (harder compound) and not having the the grooves left to keep the temp up in damp/wet conditions, the tyre performance would drop dramatically. Difference between driving on sticky rubber and hard plastic is about 20s per minute lost.

Just look back at Spa when all the dry-runners were going 40s slower than the inter-runners on the last lap.

[Dave B]

Do I win a prize?

I predicted that when I logged on to the forum today there'd be a pathetic thread moaning about Glock and consipracy theories :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

I seriously don't see what people's problems is. Would you not be asking questions if the shoe was on the other foot?

[Firstgear]

Well bowers, the evidence seems to suggest Glock/Toyota weren't paid off. But don't give up, there are other angles you can try to develop.

hint - the timing and location of the clowd burst on the last lap seems quite suspicious.

[Roamy]

And the CIA shot John F Kennedy.
Good grief. Charlie Brown.

Actually Lyndon Johnson has Kennedy shot.

Congrats to Lewis and congrats to Massa for staying on the track one time when it rained!!

[Buzz Lightyear]

Wonder if Trulli was paid also, so Glock didnt look stupid. This dispells any theory.. Both Toyota's last lap times were 8-10s off the leaders.. argument closed.

[Bagwan]

Anyone heard whether Timo made it out of Brazil or not ?

Cross him off the list of those who will drive for Ferrari .

Kinda weak in the conspiracy theory concept here . I'm quite sure we can do better than this .

I think Fousto had something to do with it . You know how much of a Lewis fan he is .

Did you threaten to slip a diamondback in Timo's slippers , cowboy ?

[schmenke]

Do I win a prize?

I predicted that when I logged on to the forum today there'd be a pathetic thread moaning about Glock and consipracy theories :rolleyes:

Yep, this thread was inevitable :dozey:

[yodasarmpit]

I see around the net, and even here mutterings of Glock allowing Hamilton pass, and that is just garbage.

If Glock had chosen to gift the WDC to Lewis all he needed to do was pit for wets along with every other driver, rather than stay out on drys and make a go for it.

Looking at the timings you will see that both drivers who stayed out on dries lost the same amount of time on the last lap, so no conspiracy, just a gamble that didn't pay off for Trulli and Glock

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/Glock.jpg

[Somebody]

Looking at the timings you will see that both drivers who stayed out on dries lost the same amount of time on the last lap, so no conspiracy, just a gamble that didn't pay off for Trulli and Glock
Actually, it DID pay off for Glock, and nearly paid off for Trulli - Glock was seventh and Trulli was eighth before the rain. Glock still gained a point from not pitting despite his last lap, and Trulli didn't lose out.

[Easy Drifter]

It was all the Demented Midget!
He arranged for the rain to cause a 10 min. delay to the start so his second planned shower would arrive with 5 laps to go and it would alter the race to provide a super exciting fiinish.
Makes as much sense as the other theory. :vader:

[Bagwan]

I see around the net, and even here mutterings of Glock allowing Hamilton pass, and that is just garbage.

If Glock had chosen to gift the WDC to Lewis all he needed to do was pit for wets along with every other driver, rather than stay out on drys and make a go for it.

Looking at the timings you will see that both drivers who stayed out on dries lost the same amount of time on the last lap, so no conspiracy, just a gamble that didn't pay off for Trulli and Glock

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/Glock.jpg

Hold on just a second now .

That table shows Trulli was 2.2seconds faster through the final sector , even though , when he got there it would have been wetter .
Could there be something to this ?

[foxystoat]

Yes he drove a better final sector than Glock ! just get over it

It only came down to the final corner because of the stewards fixing it for Massa to still be involved on the final race anyway.

[Bagwan]

Yes he drove a better final sector than Glock ! just get over it

It only came down to the final corner because of the stewards fixing it for Massa to still be involved on the final race anyway.

Had you read the entire thread , you might have noticed that I made fun of it earlier .

If you re-read your post , you might see why I see it as ironic that you dredge the past in your last sentence , and tell me to "get over it" in your second .

Please pay attention .

I noted that there time difference in the final sector was larger than might be normal , when at the same time , the conditions should have worsened .

Glock should not normally be 2.2 seconds slower in better conditions .
That's in a sector time frame of 22.8 -25 seconds .

I don't believe he was paid by anyone to be so slow , but it does seem a bit stark .

[tintop]

Hold on just a second now .

That table shows Trulli was 2.2seconds faster through the final sector , even though , when he got there it would have been wetter .
Could there be something to this ?

I'm sure Glock lost some time getting passed, but I didn't see the race.

[Zico]

Stupid rumour, stupid thread.

If Glock hadn't gambled on drys then Massa had no chance in the last 5 laps.
No chance.

Anti-McLaren conspirators (whoever they are on this occasion) should be holding Glock in high praise for giving Massa at least half a chance of the title up until the final corners.

And giving us a brilliant conclusion to the title.


Couldnt have put it better myself..

[foxystoat]

Had you read the entire thread , you might have noticed that I made fun of it earlier .

If you re-read your post , you might see why I see it as ironic that you dredge the past in your last sentence , and tell me to "get over it" in your second .

Please pay attention .

I noted that there time difference in the final sector was larger than might be normal , when at the same time , the conditions should have worsened .

Glock should not normally be 2.2 seconds slower in better conditions .
That's in a sector time frame of 22.8 -25 seconds .

I don't believe he was paid by anyone to be so slow , but it does seem a bit stark .

If he was 2.2 secs slower in the final sector but the lap times were nearly identical to Trullis he must have been 2 seconds faster in another sector. So was Trulli slowing down in that one ? You are the one posting ridiculous conspiracy theories that cannot be backed up even by the sector times.
He ended up over 5 seconds behind Hamilton & Vettell in the end not 2.2 as he could barely keep it on the track. He gambled on slicks gained a place & nearly 3 in the end it was a brave gamble that paid off gaining him a point.

[tintop]

Hold on just a second now .

That table shows Trulli was 2.2seconds faster through the final sector , even though , when he got there it would have been wetter .
Could there be something to this ?

Part 2

I'm sure Glock lost some time getting passed, but I didn't see the race. Looks Like he was passed by 2 cars for position on the last lap (Vet + Ham - who were within a second of each other - so both passed in Sector 3?) and maybe some lapped cars also passed him "I really don't know where Lewis overtook me because four cars past me left and right, left and right. I was just concentrating to keep the car on the track. That was the only way. "

That will tend to slow you down a bit more especially if you are fighting to stay on the black stuff.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71968

[yodasarmpit]

Actually, it DID pay off for Glock, and nearly paid off for Trulli - .

Sorry, I should have said it didn't pay off as much as it could have.

[Bagwan]

Part 2

I'm sure Glock lost some time getting passed, but I didn't see the race. Looks Like he was passed by 2 cars for position on the last lap (Vet + Ham - who were within a second of each other - so both passed in Sector 3?) and maybe some lapped cars also passed him "I really don't know where Lewis overtook me because four cars past me left and right, left and right. I was just concentrating to keep the car on the track. That was the only way. "

That will tend to slow you down a bit more especially if you are fighting to stay on the black stuff.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71968

That's a reasoned response .
Thanks for that .

I recall all those around him giving him a pretty wide berth , 2 on one side , 2 on the other .
Hardly surprising they were going by , against dries , but I don't recall them hindering his line .

One little slip can lose you that time in the wet , I guess , but Jarno must have had an amazing last one if he did it in the wetter conditions .


The slow times do fit with the "he slowed down" scenario .
I point to it and get harassed .

Touchy winners .

[Easy Drifter]

I have no idea how many of you have raced in the rain but it is bl---y hard to keep it on the black stuff even with wet tires. Actually if it is pouring it is easier as the inevitable oil has disappeared. Very damp to slightly wet is almost impossible on dries that have lost temp.
It is like driving with almost bald tires on ice that has a thin layer of water on it. Grip zilch!
And yes I have raced in the rain (and sometimes in the dark to boot).

[Bagwan]

Hell , Drifter , that's when the party starts out there .

Trick is , though , getting that damned mini-van back end to swing out wide for me with that stupid stomp it again pedal for the e-brake !

Sometimes it's ditches filled black ice all the way to the groceries and back , with 2 mini-vans worth of vision the whole way .

I'd give both Jarno or Timo a go any day , for the cost of the groceries .

[cali]

Most fun topic of the whole forum - keep on going guys :D

[tintop]

I have no idea how many of you have raced in the rain but it is bl---y hard to keep it on the black stuff even with wet tires. Actually if it is pouring it is easier as the inevitable oil has disappeared. Very damp to slightly wet is almost impossible on dries that have lost temp.
It is like driving with almost bald tires on ice that has a thin layer of water on it. Grip zilch!
And yes I have raced in the rain (and sometimes in the dark to boot).

I've done a lot of rain racing and when cars in faster classes are passing you (especially on either side of you) I think you can tend to lift a bit, especially if you have little grip and or they throw up crap on your wind screen. Glock also had some points in the bag and couldn't possibly challenge non-dry tire guys so it would make sense that he give up a little time when they passed him. Again, I didn't see it, but his statements seem to indicate that he was pushing as hard as he could - and he felt sorry for Massa.

[Easy Drifter]

Hi Bagwan. I do not not known where in Canada you live but I am right on Georgian Bay in Ontario's snowbelt. For the last couple of years I have been driving our Co. GMC 3/4 ton van on no weather tires. Is that ever fun in the white stuff. I felt like a dirt track sprint car driver. Now have a Cobalt. My grocery store is 20 k. one way. (sold the Co.)
I have also winter rallied in Int'l open road events plus stages but at least the cars were properly equipped.

[jso1985]

Had you read the entire thread , you might have noticed that I made fun of it earlier .

If you re-read your post , you might see why I see it as ironic that you dredge the past in your last sentence , and tell me to "get over it" in your second .

Please pay attention .

I noted that there time difference in the final sector was larger than might be normal , when at the same time , the conditions should have worsened .

Glock should not normally be 2.2 seconds slower in better conditions .
That's in a sector time frame of 22.8 -25 seconds .

I don't believe he was paid by anyone to be so slow , but it does seem a bit stark .

Maybe Trulli is more talented/got better handling out of his set-up? in wet conditions things can change a lot, even if the conditions were worse the 2,2 secs could be explained that Glock nearly lost the car somewhere in sector 3 while Trulli didn't.
or Glock slowed down quite a lot once he lost his 4th place and noted the 7th place driver was way behind and Trulli kept on "running" since webber was probably close to him.

nothing stark or strange to me.

A big shame for me, my least favourite driver was going to lose the championship thanks to my two favourite drivers!.

[Roamy]

It was announced today that Timo Glock and Hekki Kovalien will trade seats next season. Also Di Montezemolo horse whipped Mosely into abandoning any idea of spec engines. RB scored the girl from Ipanema and promptly traded his travel luggage to Bruno Senna. And yes McCain won the election here in the states albeit David Duke voted 17 million times.

More news at 11

[CNR]

Yes he drove a better final sector than Glock ! just get over it

It only came down to the final corner because of the stewards fixing it for Massa to still be involved on the final race anyway.


you talk about the stewards fixing it for Massa

Do not forget that if lewis was not in that team that macheats would have been banned from racing this year after spygate.

FIXING IT FOR LEW_SER

[wmcot]

It's going to be a LOOOOOONG off-season... ;)

[jens]

Wow, this must be the first ever rain-gamble that has actually paid off for Toyota. :D Although they got it a bit wrong in the beginning, when Trulli was called in at least a lap too late.

Toyota has also participated in clarifying the WDC winner - should be proud now or what? :p :

By the way, to those who are stunned why Glock lost by 2 secs to Trulli in the last sector - it doesn't matter, because Hamilton finished ahead of Glock by 6 seconds anyway.

[wmcot]

I was thinking of opening up a Paranoia Forum, but everyone started questioning my motives...

[bowers]

well, i was reading. it just seemed that, instead of a conspiracy theory, the bleeding obvious needed to be stated. Occum's Razor (the hypothesis containing the fewest assumptions will almost certainly be the correct one) and all that.



My bias? Against whom? Against what? i take up a contrary position to you, ergo i am biased? god, what is it with this site and the inability to think before posting? try Occum's Razor again. you're making assumptions other than the obvious one: you're wrong.

I admit it. i am biased. biased against people who don't think before they post.

if you knew glock was setting fast times, you had access to F1's site or some other live timing site, in which case you could see his splits with his team mate. trulli had no interest in slowing down on the last lap, neither did glock.

dry tyres work reasonably in light wet, until they lose temperature (and, of course, until the standing water becomes more prevalent), then you are in a no-win downward spiral. the cooler weather and the standing water and the lower lateral grip levels and lighter brake loads all conspire to drag the tyre temp down and you cannot get it back again.

i suspect this is what happened to toyota as the rain got heavier.



the way hamilton moved for RK left a door ajar for vettel, who did a superb job to take it. a superstar of the future.

and, wow. on the second last lap RK was gambling on a safety car? i know kubica and he's not that stupid. I know Mario Theissen and he's not that stupid, either...

...that leaves one of you.

I'm stupid for having an open mind on this subject? Some of us know Toyota are stuggling with the new KERS system, maybe information from McLaren on that system is why you pull a move like that, who knows there are many highly feasable reasons as to why and why not (I'm not really suggesting the entire Toyota corp. is getting paid off, there are individuals with lots of power in the sport that could PERHAPS have had a say in things). Like I said if you read what I've been saying I haven't gone on record and said this IS WHAT HAPPENED. Look at the amount of discussion going on, anyone that falls on the conspiracy side is in the minority. It's looking more and more like the opposite actually to me though (not a consiracy) yet I'd love to see Glocks split times to put the nail in the coffin (maybe not all the way though).

It is true that my father (who rarely watches F1) and myself both looked at each other and immediately thought something may be askew with that ending. It was almost too exciting to be true. There is room to make an argument here from either side. We need split times basically.

P.S This razor theory you found out about just says it's usually right. There's a key word there.

[bowers]

FFS Markabilly, he was just trying to stay on the road!

he said later he had no idea he was the keystone in the title race, so how that translates into helping hamilton i have no idea.

his lap time was no different to his team mate's and, given nobody else was on dry tyres, he's the only valid comparison.

Toyota didn't make a mistake by leaving him on dry tyres. It might have made him look silly at the end, but Toyota moved up one place because of it and that extra point is worth serious money. It was a very smart move.

Oh, and last point in Kubica unlapping himself: real good thinking, because in a race where he struggled to pass a braking point, he was thinking that in half a lap he could catch and pass Kimi, Alonso and Massa to get back on the lead lap? Please, people, think a bit before posting!

how can so many people look reason and reality in the face and come up with conspiracy?

only possible answer: because you want to.

why? because it's easier than doing what Massa so classily did: sucking it up and losing with dignity.

He is to be applauded. some folks here should be derided. if only the mods would let us...


Calling for people to be booted in this discussion is just downright low, get over it, there's something to talk about here obviously, you are are aren't you. And lets say there is actually a conspiracy here... are those that believe there is a conspiracy going to think your evidence of 'well Glock didn't know he was the conerstone in the championship' would buy it??? That statement was a small waste of bandwidth... along with the statement to get rid of people from the forum (it's a public forum, you don't like it? Too bad... I personally think calling for a booting is crossing the line so I must voice that, but like I said it's a public forum). You can go ahead and bask in the glory of Hamilton winning and you can applaud him (as Massa has), but to expect everyone will act the same is ridiculous when it's a one point championship. It's already been a highly controversial championship, why can't it be now?

[Valve Bounce]

I'm stupid for having an open mind on this subject? Some of us know Toyota are stuggling with the new KERS system, maybe information from McLaren on that system is why you pull a move like that, who knows there are many highly feasable reasons as to why and why not (I'm not really suggesting the entire Toyota corp. is getting paid off, there are individuals with lots of power in the sport that could PERHAPS have had a say in things). Like I said if you read what I've been saying I haven't gone on record and said this IS WHAT HAPPENED. Look at the amount of discussion going on, anyone that falls on the conspiracy side is in the minority. It's looking more and more like the opposite actually to me though (not a consiracy) yet I'd love to see Glocks split times to put the nail in the coffin (maybe not all the way though).

It is true that my father (who rarely watches F1) and myself both looked at each other and immediately thought something may be askew with that ending. It was almost too exciting to be true. There is room to make an argument here from either side. We need split times basically.

P.S This razor theory you found out about just says it's usually right. There's a key word there.

You should have stopped after the first two words of your post!! :D

[Jag_Warrior]

And the CIA shot John F Kennedy.
Good grief. Charlie Brown.

Let me fix that for you to make it more believable.


And the FIA shot John F Kennedy.
Good grief. Charlie Brown.

[Easy Drifter]

See my post under the flexible wings thread. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

See my post under the flexible wings thread. ;)

Mine too!

[Mickey T]

I'm stupid for having an open mind on this subject?

No, for not giving worthy consideration to what you were about to post.



Some of us know Toyota are stuggling with the new KERS system, maybe information from McLaren on that system is why you pull a move like that, who knows there are many highly feasable reasons as to why and why not (I'm not really suggesting the entire Toyota corp. is getting paid off, there are individuals with lots of power in the sport that could PERHAPS have had a say in things). Like I said if you read what I've been saying I haven't gone on record and said this IS WHAT HAPPENED. Look at the amount of discussion going on, anyone that falls on the conspiracy side is in the minority.

couple of points. you KNOW toyota is struggling with KERS? you work for them, do you?
is this back pedalling or front pedalling? i don't quite know what you're trying not to say here, but if you're implying senior toyota personnel are on the take from mclaren, that's a big allegation backed up by, well, nothing.



It's looking more and more like the opposite actually to me though (not a consiracy) yet I'd love to see Glocks split times to put the nail in the coffin (maybe not all the way though).

yet more proof that you're not thinking or reading before posting. the split times are already on this thread. page four. examine them, then think, then post.



It is true that my father (who rarely watches F1) and myself both looked at each other and immediately thought something may be askew with that ending. It was almost too exciting to be true. There is room to make an argument here from either side.

watching the splits during the last lap, it was clear they would both catch glock.
what room to make an argument? that reality does not exist?
existentialism lives, and it's secretly ruling Formula One?



We need split times basically.

you have them. read them. they're already here!



P.S This razor theory you found out about just says it's usually right. There's a key word there.Calling for people to be booted in this discussion is just downright low, get over it, there's something to talk about here obviously, you are are aren't you.

when did i call for people to be booted?
your every written word makes you more worthy of what i actually said should happen: that the moderators should allow us to treat you with derision.




And lets say there is actually a conspiracy here... are those that believe there is a conspiracy going to think your evidence of 'well Glock didn't know he was the conerstone in the championship' would buy it??? That statement was a small waste of bandwidth...

No? fancy me thinking that the words directly from the man at the centre of your personal storm would be relevant to this thread.
i apologise. profusely.

I will, in future, endeavour to remember that you prefer to remain in ignorance and sprout ludicrous theories based in fairyland than actually hear what the main players had to say.

he was actually happy that 1) he gained a place and 2) didn't crash.

in spite of what you think, he did a great job for his team to bring that car home at all.




along with the statement to get rid of people from the forum (it's a public forum, you don't like it? Too bad... I personally think calling for a booting is crossing the line so I must voice that, but like I said it's a public forum).

not what i said. you're not even taking it out of context. you're inventing a word that i didn't use.

the word i used was, as explained, derision

de·ri·sion /dɪˈrɪʒən/ [di-rizh-uhn]
–noun 1. ridicule; mockery: The inept performance elicited derision from the audience.
2. an object of ridicule.



You can go ahead and bask in the glory of Hamilton winning and you can applaud him (as Massa has), but to expect everyone will act the same is ridiculous when it's a one point championship. It's already been a highly controversial championship, why can't it be now?

what are you on about?

i have said plenty of times that i don't like hamilton as a human being, so don't make me to be some lewis lover.

it has been a highly controversial championship, you're right. most of that has been because of off-track decisions which contrived the one-point finale.

why would you want the last race to be controversial?

why can't you just accept that it was dramatic and leave it at that?

[cali]

what are you on about?


Maybe drugs?? :bandit:

[Daniel]

So because you don't agree with someone you feel the mods should allow you to be derisive towards someone. How's about you just respectfully disagree rather than be rude and dismissive? You don't have to agree with someone but at least respect them and their opinion. If he was being racist or something equally unacceptable then I might join in and show some disrespect but i think this thread is perfectly fine. Perhaps it's wrong perhaps it's right.

[PolePosition_1]

I can't believe there is 4 pages on this topic.

The 2.2s can most likely be put down to a simple error. Driving on dry tyres on a wet track, its a 90% chance of a slip up somewhere.

I'm gutted Massa lost out too, but no point trying to find any excuses. Lewis won it fair and square.

[Valve Bounce]

I can't believe there is 4 pages on this topic.

The 2.2s can most likely be put down to a simple error. Driving on dry tyres on a wet track, its a 90% chance of a slip up somewhere.

I'm gutted Massa lost out too, but no point trying to find any excuses. Lewis won it fair and square.


My post #86 is relevant!

[Mark]

Did anyone see Glocks driving after Hamilton overtook him? He was squirming about all over the place, he was lucky to stay on track!

[Valve Bounce]

Did anyone see Glocks driving after Hamilton overtook him? He was squirming about all over the place, he was lucky to stay on track!

I noticed that. It actually looked as if his car had broken something, he was going so erratically.

[Daniel]

Or perhaps the FIA had pushed the button to rig the title as they did last year ;)

[PolePosition_1]

Or perhaps the FIA had pushed the button to rig the title as they did last year ;)

I was slightly suprised to see Bernie on the grid walk, talk about how hard it is to have a title to come down to the wire year after year, implying it was fixed. Was said in a jokingly manner of course, but still, the mind does wonder at times, especially with this years penalties.

[Knock-on]

I can't believe there is 4 pages on this topic.

The 2.2s can most likely be put down to a simple error. Driving on dry tyres on a wet track, its a 90% chance of a slip up somewhere.

I'm gutted Massa lost out too, but no point trying to find any excuses. Lewis won it fair and square.

Sorry, I've just sobered up and had a right old laugh reading this crap.

Typical Troll doing some fishing and must be overjoyed with his catch.

ROTFLMFAO!!

:laugh:

It's a conspiracy I tell you. Toyota cant connect their KERS up without using McLarens Soldering Iron so stayed out on Drys to gain an extra place while helping Lewis.

Clear as mud :D

[V12]

Lewis Hamilton is set to become the first billionaire sports star on the back of his world championship win, according to some UK newspapers.

Timo Glock is set to become the second.

;) :p

[555-04Q2]

FFS people. We have a new champion. I would have loved for my man Massa to have won, but he did'nt. No conspiracy theories are needed. Well done Lewis. Now lets look to 2009 and the return of slicks!!!

[I am evil Homer]

you talk about the stewards fixing it for Massa

Do not forget that if lewis was not in that team that macheats would have been banned from racing this year after spygate.

FIXING IT FOR LEW_SER

What the loser that's now WDC....okay.....

[ioan]

Sorry, I've just sobered up and had a right old laugh reading this crap.

:rolleyes:

Finally you know what I feel when I read your posts.

PS: I promised myself not to get involved in such debates till next season, but the way you treat fellow forum members made me brake my self-promise. I hope I won't have to do it another time before March 2009.

[Daniel]

This is shocking. This forum is supposed to be all about free speech without being nasty or personal and that's all gone out the window. I don't entirely agree with the OP's thoughts but I do respect his right to say these things without getting accused of being a troll and people saying that the mods should allow them to ridicule the OP. When something questionable happens to your driver I hope you people get exactly the same treatment you bunch of so and so's.

[BDunnell]

Do we seriously think Glock is an out-and-out liar? Certainly not! Therefore, I don't see there's anything much to say here. He says there was nothing he could do and I believe him.

[ioan]

This is shocking. This forum is supposed to be all about free speech without being nasty or personal and that's all gone out the window. I don't entirely agree with the OP's thoughts but I do respect his right to say these things without getting accused of being a troll and people saying that the mods should allow them to ridicule the OP. When something questionable happens to your driver I hope you people get exactly the same treatment you bunch of so and so's.

:up:

Time for me to continue my hibernation.

[BDunnell]

This is shocking. This forum is supposed to be all about free speech without being nasty or personal and that's all gone out the window. I don't entirely agree with the OP's thoughts but I do respect his right to say these things without getting accused of being a troll and people saying that the mods should allow them to ridicule the OP. When something questionable happens to your driver I hope you people get exactly the same treatment you bunch of so and so's.

OP?

By the way, your post seems to have moved. It was definitely above my last one when I looked before!

[Knock-on]

:laugh: @ ioan and Daniel :laugh:

Dear o dear boys. Is that the best you have

You accuse people of making personal attacks by making ..... personal attacks.

Enjoy the hibernation :D

As for this silly conspiracy theory. I don't mind if people post this sort of stuff. I consider it Trolling because of it's absurdity and reserve the right to have a good old laugh at it.

Sorry if my decision to regard this accusation against Toyota as absurd incurs your wrath but that's life.

As for the personal comments by you 2, well, you're entitled to your opinion as am I :p

[BDunnell]

Whatever the personal views being expressed, can I just point out that there is no evidence at all for the very serious and frankly, outlandish accusation contained in the thread title? This seems to be going past some people.

[Daniel]

Whatever the personal views being expressed, can I just point out that there is no evidence at all for the very serious and frankly, outlandish accusation contained in the thread title? This seems to be going past some people.
I agree. But people are happy to accuse Max, the FIA and Ferrari of corruption without evidence and they don't get such treatment. Why should Glock and Toyota be any different? I've said I don't agree with the thoughts of the person who started the post but why oh why can people just not respect them?

[Daniel]

:laugh: @ ioan and Daniel :laugh:

Dear o dear boys. Is that the best you have

You accuse people of making personal attacks by making ..... personal attacks.

Enjoy the hibernation :D

As for this silly conspiracy theory. I don't mind if people post this sort of stuff. I consider it Trolling because of it's absurdity and reserve the right to have a good old laugh at it.

Sorry if my decision to regard this accusation against Toyota as absurd incurs your wrath but that's life.

As for the personal comments by you 2, well, you're entitled to your opinion as am I

I've not made any personal attacks on you on this thread :confused: Can you provide some evidence? Some links perhaps? :)

[BDunnell]

I agree. But people are happy to accuse Max, the FIA and Ferrari of corruption without evidence and they don't get such treatment. Why should Glock and Toyota be any different? I've said I don't agree with the thoughts of the person who started the post but why oh why can people just not respect them?

This is true, but two wrongs don't make a right. I wish no-one would make unfounded allegations of corruption just because it fits in somehow with their opinions.

[janneppi]

Time to get back to the topic guys.

If you feel the thread is stupid, or a troll, don bleebinging post in it then. If you feel some is a troll,don't feed him/her, it only make's you look like an bleebing bleeb in the process.

[Mark]

Don't forget that all the ECU's are made by McLaren, they will have sent a secret signal to Glocks car to make the engine go slow on the last lap.

It's true I tell you :bounce:

[Valve Bounce]

I agree. But people are happy to accuse Max, the FIA and Ferrari of corruption without evidence and they don't get such treatment. Why should Glock and Toyota be any different? I've said I don't agree with the thoughts of the person who started the post but why oh why can people just not respect them?

Because it are just a road a codwarrop! :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

This is true, but two wrongs don't make a right. I wish no-one would make unfounded allegations of corruption just because it fits in somehow with their opinions.

I agree. We're all guilty of saying things before we've though them through sometimes though aren't we?

[Daniel]

Because it are just a road a codwarrop! :rotflmao:
Racist! Racist! :p

[MAX_THRUST]

Ofcourse Iaon speaks to everyone properly.....

I don't like loosers especially bad loosers. Get a grip with all the points given to Ferrari this year, and with the huge fine that was hit on Merc they still cant beat Lewis.

Get over it now, Lewis won. Take it like a man like Ferrari and Massa have.

[Knock-on]

:rolleyes:

Finally you know what I feel when I read your posts.

PS: I promised myself not to get involved in such debates till next season, but the way you treat fellow forum members made me brake my self-promise. I hope I won't have to do it another time before March 2009.

:laugh:

Well ioan old fruit, if my having a laugh at this sort of nonsense offends you, then so be it.

Have a nice nap and try not to break your promise again ;)

[Knock-on]

Time to get back to the topic guys.

If you feel the thread is stupid, or a troll, don bleebinging post in it then. If you feel some is a troll,don't feed him/her, it only make's you look like an bleebing bleeb in the process.

I have PM'd you but why should you erase my posts which as far as I can see breaks no forum rules and leave others up that do?

Then you let others drag topics off course and pick me up when I'm trying to justify my opinion as to the thread :confused:

I think you have a problem with me and if so, I suggest you stick it where the sun doesn't shine... only if you do of course. :p

[wedge]

Not sure if this was mentioned but Glock drove the last lap like a lapped backmarker, not a driver fighting for points position a la Schumi/Hungary/2006

[PolePosition_1]

Not sure if this was mentioned but Glock drove the last lap like a lapped backmarker, not a driver fighting for points position a la Schumi/Hungary/2006

All due respect, Schumacher wasn't 20+ s a lap off pace in Hungary 2006. And Schumacher was dirty and unsporting in his defending in Hungary 2006.

[Ian McC]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/57241/Lewis-race-fix-shock-/

Hmm, shame they called you 'somebody' and not named you, that's just rude!

Surely British tabloid journalism at it's worst?

[Robinho]

ok lets entertain the idea for a moment.

IF Mclaren paid off Toyota, who is paying who?

are we talking Ron Dennis/Martin Whitmarsh/Norbert Haug agreeing to part with team money, the organisation, or individuals fortunes?

if it was a transfer of technology, that we a) don't know that Mclaren have got any good at, and b) don't know that toyota are struggling with are we seriously expected to think that maybe in the last 3 laps of an incredibley important and tense race they found time to contact Toyota, or Glock's management, secretly, offer some "deal" cash or otherwise, in return for giving up a hard won place, get that deal agreed (given that it would have to be secret there can be no paper trail, so no contract, and no way of holding Mclaren to it, as you can hardly come out and say, "we let you win the champ and didn't get our £x millions or Kers technonlgy, so we're suing you!".)

on top of this, contact the driver, over the FIA monitored radio and deliver a secret message that Glock would understand to slow down, but that the FIA haven't noticed or investigated, and no other teams, team members or any contempary connected with F1 has actually suggested or complained about.

all at the same time, managing to coreograph the move to coincide with Trulli also losing exactly the same amount of time on the last lap, and still gain points as a result of the original tactical decision?

wouldn't it have been easier to contact toyota earlier and ask them to follow any tyre strategy that Mclaren do in the case of rain to make sure they stay in front - which would of course go completley unnoticed?

where is the Ferrari outcry, Flavio's outrageous accusations, Alonsos dark mutterings, FIA's investigations - sorry, no smoke, absolutley no fire, probably COS IT WAS RAINING SO HARD AT THE END OF THE RACE!

[Ian McC]

I can't believe that (apart from Daily Star readers) anyone would take any of this seriously!

[MrJan]

Don't forget that all the ECU's are made by McLaren, they will have sent a secret signal to Glocks car to make the engine go slow on the last lap.

It's true I tell you :bounce:

Oi, stop trolling :p : :D

[wedge]

All due respect, Schumacher wasn't 20+ s a lap off pace in Hungary 2006. And Schumacher was dirty and unsporting in his defending in Hungary 2006.

Only the last lap where Glock lost it. Makes no difference, IMO, it's the last lap for godsake!

Kimi did everthing right to fend off Lewis at Spa.

And the only thing Schumi did wrong in Hungary 2006 was not giving up his position when he overshot the chicane. Tactically poor as he should've changed to slicks, everything else was near perfect from a racer's POV.

[Dave B]

I can't believe that (apart from Daily Star readers) anyone would take any of this seriously!
There are no Daily Star readers: they just look at the pictures.

[Knock-on]

Oi, stop trolling :p : :D

Careful. A particular Mod will come down on you for such personal insults and question whether you are a decent human being ;) :laugh:

[MrJan]

There are no Daily Star readers: they just look at the pictures.

And with the sort of pictures you get in the Star who can blame them? :cheese:

[Mark]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/57241/Lewis-race-fix-shock-/

Hmm, shame they called you 'somebody' and not named you, that's just rude!

Surely British tabloid journalism at it's worst?

Fame at last! At least someone reads the forums :laugh:

[Bagwan]

Fame at last! At least someone reads the forums :laugh:

Props to the man at the top !

You know , this is quite amazing , to have the site named , but , also a little scary at the same time .
Will we see more conspiracy theorists flock to the site here ?

It think it may have been a conspiracy , put forth by the Daily Star , to discredit the forum and flood it with theorists , for it's constant ridicule of the finest British press . That MI5 agent , his hooker wife , and Martin Brundle are all likely involved .

Timo did not act alone . Look to the grassy knoll .

[Dave B]

Does anybody else get a ton and a half of script errors on the Daily Star page? :s

[Triumph]

Ahh, more sour grapes. It's very unfortunate for all you anti-Hamilton fools that you have picked him to hate. You couldn't have picked a worse prospect for suppression. It's a repeat of the Senna/Schumacher resentment, but now with extra bile.

And for all the half-wits outside this forum that can't see past the race issue - which I'm sure plays a significant part in all this resentment - Lewis is as much white as he is black, so I don't see how there could be a problem with him anyway.

[Daniel]

The daily scrag didn't actually show any racial abuse at all. Once the helmet goes on Lewis could be of any racial background and I think it'll be a very very small amount of people who make issue with it. Why are people anti-hamilton fools just for not supporting him? :confused:

[Triumph]

I didn't say that. Read again. I was addressing those who hate him. I didn't say 'all you non-Hamilton-supporting fools' did I?

Also I made no reference to the Daily Star as perpetrating the race issue. Read again. I was addressing everywhere but this forum, to encompass ALL accounts of race-related bile that are out there.

[Daniel]

Fair enough but what were you referring to and why post in this thread if it wasn't directed at someone on this thread? I have yet to see someone who hates Lewis on this forum. I don't like him but I don't hate him......

[Triumph]

I was referring to the numerous accounts of racist abuse that have been directed at Lewis throughout the racing season.

I was posting about the anti-Hamilton situation because it is an entirely relevant point, related to the thread's subject. The fact that I addressed issues outside this forum and separated certain issues from this forum is entirely in keeping with the intended purpose for internet forums.

The hate situation is subjective. I'm sure you don't live in a world where everything is literal. I certainly don't. There is certainly a far greater level of resentment for Lewis than could reasonably be explained by the fact that people are jealous of his ability.

[Mark]

A driver being disliked is nothing new just look at MS one of the most hated drivers ever by some and that was nothing to with race. Nor is some Spanish fans hurling abuse. They don't hate him because he is black but because he is opposition to thier favourite driver.

[philipbain]

Obviously the best way to punish the Spanish authorities for the repeated racist incidents involving Spanish fans that have blighted F1 over the past year or so would be to strip Spain of both of thier GPs! Lets face it, from a racing perspective it would be no great loss, both Barcelona and Valencia being pretty poor for actual racing, both races were precessions this season. Then the Spanish fans would time to reflect on how they are responsible for them not being able to follow thier hero on the track in thier own country.

[Dave B]

Obviously the best way to punish the Spanish authorities for the repeated racist incidents involving Spanish fans that have blighted F1 over the past year or so would be to strip Spain of both of thier GPs! .
That would be a massive over-reaction to a tiny minority of bigots. The Spanish authorities and the circuit management acted quickly on the incident in testing, and we've not seen a repeat.

To paint the whole of Spain as racists due to the actions of maybe half a dozen "fans" is simply not fair.

[Triumph]

A driver being disliked is nothing new just look at MS one of the most hated drivers ever by some and that was nothing to with race. Nor is some Spanish fans hurling abuse. They don't hate him because he is black but because he is opposition to thier favourite driver.


Yes I agree. The Schumacher (and Senna) comparisons are down to an entirely different aspect of Lewis Hamilton.

Unfortunately the incident in Spain is just a tiny part of it, but let's not dwell on that. Maybe I shouldn't have brought up that particular subject, but it's very difficult to ignore.

[Triumph]

Regarding Spain as a whole, and what should be done about things that happened there, let's look to the most prominent Spaniard in all of this, Fernando Alonso.

He went as far as to say that he didn't want Lewis Hamilton to win the world championship, which sounded like a case of sour grapes at the time, but in the post-race interviews at Interlagos he congratulated Lewis on his victory, which was a nice gesture and very much to Alonso's credit.

There's a bit of envy amongst drivers, but none of the overt hate that prevails in the outside world.

[Tazio]

Actually I happen to know that Glock got hit by an unusually powerful cosmic ray in that last corner! :eek:

I'd be happy to give an exclusive interview to the Daily Fish-Wrap!

You don't have to resort to creating news for your own paper! :)

I will insist on a sizable cash retainer of course! ;)

[Allyc85]

Why is this thread still going? No one in F1 has questioned Glock over the last few laps, yet a load of muppets on a forum drag out 7 pages making up absolute rubbish!

[Easy Drifter]

Tazio: Will you take your retainer in Zimbawean currency? :D

[Tazio]

Tazio: Will you take your retainer in Zimbawean currency? :D SIZE MATTERS!!!!!! :eek:

[Ian McC]

Why is this thread still going? No one in F1 has questioned Glock over the last few laps, yet a load of muppets on a forum drag out 7 pages making up absolute rubbish!

Because we read it in the Star, so it must be true :p

[Easy Drifter]

Let's see. 1,000,000. Zimdawean = about 50 cent Cdn. or 41.23 US. Oops 45 no 41 cents Cdn. Oh gosh now 39 cents.

[patnicholls]

Why is this thread still going? No one in F1 has questioned Glock over the last few laps, yet a load of muppets on a forum drag out 7 pages making up absolute rubbish!

Hopefully everyone's gone quiet on the issue after Robinho hit the nail on the head in post #112 with a well-timed blast of common sense :p

Oh, and from the archives of two-wheeled action, another example of changing weather conditions and contrasting tyre choices creating a *bit* of drama, from MotoGP at Donington in 2000:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PMd_KYErxFk

[Tazio]

Hopefully everyone's gone quiet on the issue after Robinho hit the nail on the head in post #112 with a well-timed blast of common sense :p
Fun Police! :)

[Valve Bounce]

Strange!! nobody has blamed Max so far!

[Easy Drifter]

No, it was the Demented Midget controlling the weather not Mad Max.

[Somebody]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/57241/Lewis-race-fix-shock-/

Hmm, shame they called you 'somebody' and not named you, that's just rude!

How d'y'think *I* feel, being equated with that "bleebing bleeb"?


Surely British tabloid journalism at it's worst?
Oh yes - but that's no surprise. It *is* the Daily Star.

[Mark]

Strange!! nobody has blamed Max so far!

Because it goes without saying it is his fault...

[Valve Bounce]

""I want to meet Hamilton and his father to tell them they deserved the title," Massa told Italian newspaper Gazetta dello Sport.

"I re-watched the race on TV: for Lewis that last lap was a drama, he was locking the wheels everywhere as he was trying to recover," added Massa, who also dismissed out of hand wild conspiracies that the Toyota driver may have moved over to help Hamilton.

"Glock didn't let himself be overtaken on purpose," said Massa."

I guess this is what we all want to hear, and this just about stops this stupid thread in its tracks.

When you really think about it, Hamilton, as a rookie last year, nearly won the WDC and but for some stupid decisions by his team, would have. Then, in his second year, he won the championship, being the youngest driver ever to do so.

Can't we, as a forum, just congratulate him on that and leave the stupidity out of the equation.

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh said at the team's Woking factory this week: "Felipe Massa drove brilliantly to win the Brazilian Grand Prix.
"I'd like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the quality of his driving throughout the season and the impressively sportsmanlike way he handled the disappointment of finding out at the last minute that he hadn't won the drivers' world championship."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72022

Perhaps the final word on all the other nonsense should go to Timo:
"People who think I would decide the championship or I would let Lewis past, they have not a real idea about racing."

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72022

Perhaps the final word on all the other nonsense should go to Timo:
"People who think I would decide the championship or I would let Lewis past, they have not a real idea about racing."

Hopefully this can be put to bed now.

[bowers]

Hopefully this can be put to bed now.

Because people are open to the fact that a conspiracy occured means people don't know anything about racing??? Ooook.

[bowers]

Wonder if Trulli was paid also, so Glock didnt look stupid. This dispells any theory.. Both Toyota's last lap times were 8-10s off the leaders.. argument closed.


Amazing that these times were found but I would ask to see this screen versus the same screen 1 lap before it.

I would like to compare the last 2 lap times of Glock. I still firmly believe you don't just lose 20 seconds (if you include the gap to Lewis at the finish line) on the last lap out of nowhere... but perhaps if he lost 10 seconds the lap before this case would be closed for me personally. That would be substantial proof that his car was falling off miserably (not just falling off miserably over the course of 1 lap).

[bowers]

Amazing that these times were found but I would ask to see this screen versus the same screen 1 lap before it.

I would like to compare the last 2 lap times of Glock. I still firmly believe you don't just lose 20 seconds (if you include the gap to Lewis at the finish line) on the last lap out of nowhere... but perhaps if he lost 10 seconds the lap before this case would be closed for me personally. That would be substantial proof that his car was falling off miserably (not just falling off miserably over the course of 1 lap).

These times were gathered from another forum:
Timo Glock's last 6 lap times:
Lap 66 1:17.992
Lap 67 1:18.897
Lap 68 1:18.816
Lap 69 1:18.688
Lap 70 1:28.041
Lap 71 1:44.731

Jarno Trulli's last 6 lap times:
Lap 66 1:19.113
Lap 67 1:20.528
Lap 68 1:20.188
Lap 69 1:22.428
Lap 70 1:33.539
Lap 71 1:44.800

As you can see there was a huge drop off in performance over not 1 lap, but infact 2 which would dispell a last lap slowdown from Glock...
this wont dispell the case by anymeans, but it shoots down the theory for me.

For all you morons that were having a go at me, I once again never stated I believed there was a conspiracy I was merely open to it possibly happening. And for all those who think conspiracy's can't happen... COME ON!

[bowers]

No, for not giving worthy consideration to what you were about to post.



couple of points. you KNOW toyota is struggling with KERS? you work for them, do you?
is this back pedalling or front pedalling? i don't quite know what you're trying not to say here, but if you're implying senior toyota personnel are on the take from mclaren, that's a big allegation backed up by, well, nothing.



yet more proof that you're not thinking or reading before posting. the split times are already on this thread. page four. examine them, then think, then post.



watching the splits during the last lap, it was clear they would both catch glock.
what room to make an argument? that reality does not exist?
existentialism lives, and it's secretly ruling Formula One?



you have them. read them. they're already here!



when did i call for people to be booted?
your every written word makes you more worthy of what i actually said should happen: that the moderators should allow us to treat you with derision.




No? fancy me thinking that the words directly from the man at the centre of your personal storm would be relevant to this thread.
i apologise. profusely.

I will, in future, endeavour to remember that you prefer to remain in ignorance and sprout ludicrous theories based in fairyland than actually hear what the main players had to say.

he was actually happy that 1) he gained a place and 2) didn't crash.

in spite of what you think, he did a great job for his team to bring that car home at all.




not what i said. you're not even taking it out of context. you're inventing a word that i didn't use.

the word i used was, as explained, derision

de·ri·sion /dɪˈrɪʒən/ [di-rizh-uhn]
–noun 1. ridicule; mockery: The inept performance elicited derision from the audience.
2. an object of ridicule.



what are you on about?

i have said plenty of times that i don't like hamilton as a human being, so don't make me to be some lewis lover.

it has been a highly controversial championship, you're right. most of that has been because of off-track decisions which contrived the one-point finale.

why would you want the last race to be controversial?

why can't you just accept that it was dramatic and leave it at that?

-Toyota are struggling with KERS as they've been saying they likely wont be running, nor will they be pressured into running it, in 2009.
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/166933-0/no_date_set_for_toyota_kers_debut.html


- The split times supplied on this thread previously were quite useless as it was based on the final lap only. To get a real sense of "Glock-gate" you'd need to ideally look at the split times from the previous laps times (I thought that was obvious, my bad). As you can see I found only unofficial lap times that favour the "non conspiracy" side of the argument.

- For the umpteenth time you have made the wrong assumption that I actually agreed there was a conspiracy, after I flat out told the forum I was entirely partial on the matter (a few times).

-fine you don't like Hamilton... just don't expect everyone to take Lewis winning as well as you and Massa have then

- So as I understand it, because you think you are so "superior" that you want to earn the special forum right to mock/ridicule other forum members and that it should be encouraged???
Perhaps it's time I give you a definition:

con·de·scend (kŏn'dĭ-sěnd')
con·de·scend·ed, con·de·scend·ing, con·de·scends

1.To descend to the level of one considered inferior; lower oneself.
2.To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.
3.To write words closely followed by definitions of that word because you think people are too dumb to know what they mean (relax dude, we all have Google... it's ok)

Am I being condescending then?

[bowers]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/57241/Lewis-race-fix-shock-/

Hmm, shame they called you 'somebody' and not named you, that's just rude!

Surely British tabloid journalism at it's worst?


Hahaha that's pretty cool.

[Valve Bounce]

Can you believe this guy, anyone?

[wmcot]

Whatever the personal views being expressed, can I just point out that there is no evidence at all for the very serious and frankly, outlandish accusation contained in the thread title? This seems to be going past some people.

Unfortunately, evidence is in short supply on most of the posts in the F1 forums!

[Mickey T]

Perhaps it's time I give you a definition:

con·de·scend (kŏn'dĭ-sěnd')
con·de·scend·ed, con·de·scend·ing, con·de·scends

1.To descend to the level of one considered inferior; lower oneself.
2.To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.
3.To write words closely followed by definitions of that word because you think people are too dumb to know what they mean (relax dude, we all have Google... it's ok)

Am I being condescending then?

no, you're being a dill.

the reason i included the word and the definition is that, for reasons best known to yourself and your agenda, your responses utterly ignored the word i actually used and replaced it with words that mean something entirely different.

one of two things might have happened:

you thought they meant the same thing, in which case you should be thanking me for taking the time out of a busy schedule to help broaden your limited understanding by appraising you of the actual meaning of the word "derision" and, therefore, its lack of relationship with the words you interpreted it to mean (ie, "booted off").

or you used the more-dramatic "booted off" in place of "derision" because it turned you from a conspiracy-chasing ignoramus into somebody unfairly slighted in an attempt to garner sympathy on these forums as somebody who'd been unfairly victimised.

i consider you extremely fairly victimised, with your own written evidence showing you to be a recidivist of motorsport and racing ignorance being the sole catalyst for it.

you have google to help you with definitions of big words you don't understand? and you didn't use it the first time around when you were trying to figure out what "derision" meant? Again, it doesn't make you a victim.

[Mickey T]

- For the umpteenth time you have made the wrong assumption that I actually agreed there was a conspiracy, after I flat out told the forum I was entirely partial on the matter (a few times).


Really?




Because people are open to the fact that a conspiracy occured means people don't know anything about racing??? Ooook.

The FACT that a conspiracy took place?

while you're googling through a dictionary, run this word through it...

[Daniel]

He said open to. Why must every sentence on this forum be deconstructed and then used as evidence to say that someone said something they didn't intend to say? Yeah it could have been worded better but what do you want to have an argument about? What the OP actually meant to say or what you think the OP said?

I would say i'm open to the possibility that something happened. Perhaps fact was the wrong word to use but anyhoo time to move on.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't understand why you guys even bother to continue with this silly argument. I think both Massa and Glock have stated their points and its time to believe them and move on.

I remember once, a few years ago in the South of France at my then local Kart track, it began to rain before the start of a club championship race.

Most drivers opted to put wets on.

I gambled on staying on slicks, since the rain was not heavy and I could see a break in the clouds coming in.

There I was, thinking that this would be a moment of tactical genius that would live long in the annals of the Saint Cyprien Kart Track history.

Well, I did think that until the start.

The wind dropped, the rain kept falling and I don't think I dared touch the throttle at all after my opening lap, which I had spent the best part of understeering in tyres.

Conclusion -

Slicks on a wet track don't work.

No conspiracy.

Just hard luck on Massa, who would have been a truly deserved champion.

[wedge]

Slicks on a wet track don't work.

No one told that to Michael Schumacher at Spa in 1995

[Allyc85]

But slicks and grooved slicks behave in totally different ways, its been mentioned so many times in wet/dry races!

[Bagwan]

Hold on a minute !

Let's take stock here .
We have someone who just prompted all these guys in the F1 paddock , including those directly involved in the final gripping championship moments , to comment on his conjecture on this forum , in our midst .

Thanks , Bowers .
It's been fun to look at this .

You didn't deserve the hassle some gave you , but , with the season full of controversy as it has been , I think you might understand from where all the frustration at the mere thought of your controversy theory comes .



Myself , I thought the sticky point was going to be that issue Lewis had with replacing the steering wheel .
Hey , come to think of it , maybe that guy who insisted that Lewis get it back in place was from Toyota , to make sure Glock and his team got the payout for doing the deed in the final moments .
Damn , that's it . No wonder everyone is paying so much attention to this , and running around denying , when it was only a mere thread on some obscure F1 website , of which there are hundreds , maybe thousands .

OK , maybe not .

Thanks , Bowers .
It's been fun .

[bowers]

Hold on a minute !

Let's take stock here .
We have someone who just prompted all these guys in the F1 paddock , including those directly involved in the final gripping championship moments , to comment on his conjecture on this forum , in our midst .

Thanks , Bowers .
It's been fun to look at this .

You didn't deserve the hassle some gave you , but , with the season full of controversy as it has been , I think you might understand from where all the frustration at the mere thought of your controversy theory comes .



Myself , I thought the sticky point was going to be that issue Lewis had with replacing the steering wheel .
Hey , come to think of it , maybe that guy who insisted that Lewis get it back in place was from Toyota , to make sure Glock and his team got the payout for doing the deed in the final moments .
Damn , that's it . No wonder everyone is paying so much attention to this , and running around denying , when it was only a mere thread on some obscure F1 website , of which there are hundreds , maybe thousands .

OK , maybe not .

Thanks , Bowers .
It's been fun .

Well I appreciate the laid back attitude, and it really is something more people need take to heart (and I sometimes lose track of that).

It was a mere suggestion (that has become almost a movement now), and to some F1 fans, just suggesting this may have happened is worthy of saying something like "you know nothing about racing" or whatever. I'm pretty pleased with my motorsports knowledge, I even race stock cars myself so it's amusing when people say such things to me... just so happens a number of people love to say it (it's the easiest way out of a discussion... the thing little kids do in the sandbox)

The "Glock-gate" theory is more a business based conspiracy than a racing based theory. It has little or nothing to do with racing actually and is based more around dollars or some other form of power (for example knowledge). Some may disagree and think it's an entirely racing issue, but that has less of a basis than one solely based on the business aspects of F1. If you are in agreeance to the theory (which I actually am not) it doesn't mean you don't know anything about racing... it's the people that didn't question it for 1 second that actually don't seem to know much about F1 as a business.

[bowers]

Really?




The FACT that a conspiracy took place?

while you're googling through a dictionary, run this word through it...


Wow you are really just aching for an argument aren't you... hmm... it was fairly obvious what I meant (as Daniel said, it could've been worded better but you obviously can see the point I was making). If you want to disect my sentences for your arguments go right ahead, it only makes me look better.

[bowers]

Unfortunately, evidence is in short supply on most of the posts in the F1 forums!

Actually I feel this thread has lots of evidence that has been scraped up. 90% of it against the theory I'd estimate.

[bowers]

no, you're being a dill.

the reason i included the word and the definition is that, for reasons best known to yourself and your agenda, your responses utterly ignored the word i actually used and replaced it with words that mean something entirely different.

one of two things might have happened:

you thought they meant the same thing, in which case you should be thanking me for taking the time out of a busy schedule to help broaden your limited understanding by appraising you of the actual meaning of the word "derision" and, therefore, its lack of relationship with the words you interpreted it to mean (ie, "booted off").

or you used the more-dramatic "booted off" in place of "derision" because it turned you from a conspiracy-chasing ignoramus into somebody unfairly slighted in an attempt to garner sympathy on these forums as somebody who'd been unfairly victimised.

i consider you extremely fairly victimised, with your own written evidence showing you to be a recidivist of motorsport and racing ignorance being the sole catalyst for it.

you have google to help you with definitions of big words you don't understand? and you didn't use it the first time around when you were trying to figure out what "derision" meant? Again, it doesn't make you a victim.

Ok I apologize for saying you were aiming to get people booted. it's not what you said, I wrongfully assumed so and it wasn't the case (perhaps if you use English suited to a public F1 forum and not a scholarly debate it'd reduce such incidences).

That does not make it okay to wish for a ruling to be made to mock/ridicule people that disagree with your statements. It's one of those "I'm better than you" superiority complex kind of statements and it's not on.

I do not feel victimized by you actually (in the case you're referring to), it was actually a case of me victimizing you for making such an outlandish statement. Why would I be calling for sympathy when I don't actually believe, nor did I ever fully believe, there was a conspiracy???

I do feel unfairly victimized however when you make such comments as 'ignoramus'. Just because I don't have a "Word of the Day" calender on my wall means I can be insulted? Give me a break.

[Bagwan]

Well I appreciate the laid back attitude, and it really is something more people need take to heart (and I sometimes lose track of that).

It was a mere suggestion (that has become almost a movement now), and to some F1 fans, just suggesting this may have happened is worthy of saying something like "you know nothing about racing" or whatever. I'm pretty pleased with my motorsports knowledge, I even race stock cars myself so it's amusing when people say such things to me... just so happens a number of people love to say it (it's the easiest way out of a discussion... the thing little kids do in the sandbox)

The "Glock-gate" theory is more a business based conspiracy than a racing based theory. It has little or nothing to do with racing actually and is based more around dollars or some other form of power (for example knowledge). Some may disagree and think it's an entirely racing issue, but that has less of a basis than one solely based on the business aspects of F1. If you are in agreeance to the theory (which I actually am not) it doesn't mean you don't know anything about racing... it's the people that didn't question it for 1 second that actually don't seem to know much about F1 as a business.

There have been lots of conspiracies that have proven to be absolutely true .
It's the theoretical aspect that doesn't always hold .

Last year we had a conspiracy that nobody thought could be as true as it appeared in the end .

As Murray said , "F1 is if spelled backwards ." .
If something as mind-blowing as having Glock paid off were to happen , it would happen in F1 .
We must not forget that it is , with all the cash floating through the paddock , the most fertile of ground for a conspiracy .

All concerned were quick to deny .
They all seem pretty edgy about it all .

After last year , and earlier moments of questionable stewarding this year , any question at all seems to get all and sundry into rather a tizzy . Any suggestion of impropriety here has been met with rather venomous response .

You're alright .
You started a debate .



OK , now , who's got some captures comparing the angles of the steering wheel , so we can determine if it was properly affixed ?
Or , will it be swept under the carpet like so many other McLaren improprieties , just to make a British world champion ?
The Queen's in on it , too , as there's no way they'll investigate the issue , now that she's officially congratulated him ..........or will they ?????????????

[bowers]

There have been lots of conspiracies that have proven to be absolutely true .
It's the theoretical aspect that doesn't always hold .

Last year we had a conspiracy that nobody thought could be as true as it appeared in the end .

As Murray said , "F1 is if spelled backwards ." .
If something as mind-blowing as having Glock paid off were to happen , it would happen in F1 .
We must not forget that it is , with all the cash floating through the paddock , the most fertile of ground for a conspiracy .

All concerned were quick to deny .
They all seem pretty edgy about it all .

After last year , and earlier moments of questionable stewarding this year , any question at all seems to get all and sundry into rather a tizzy . Any suggestion of impropriety here has been met with rather venomous response .

You're alright .
You started a debate .



OK , now , who's got some captures comparing the angles of the steering wheel , so we can determine if it was properly affixed ?
Or , will it be swept under the carpet like so many other McLaren improprieties , just to make a British world champion ?
The Queen's in on it , too , as there's no way they'll investigate the issue , now that she's officially congratulated him ..........or will they ?????????????


Would be interesting to see all the Lewis fans that believed in something fishy after Spa and immediately shot down the possibility of anything going on in Brazil wouldn't it.

[Valve Bounce]

Had the title been: "Did Glock slow down on purpose to let Hamilton win?", I suspect the discussion would not have been so heated.

But as it stands, the title of this thread insinuates bribery on the part of McLaren and this is libelous.

Now we have both Massa and Glock explaining what really happened, and the author of this silly thread still tries to defend his argument. Now how stupid is that?

[Easy Drifter]

Bowers: Let it go. I do not think anyone thinks it was arranged. Outside of the dollars involved for points in the championship the logistics of setting it up in the heat of a race and communications made it impossible. Valve Bounce and I agree that your thread heading was provocative. I have read posts by you on other threads and appreciate your thoughts.
Please just drop it.
Besides you are giving the rest of us 'Crazy Canucks' a bad name. :D

[Ian McC]

Would be interesting to see all the Lewis fans that believed in something fishy after Spa and immediately shot down the possibility of anything going on in Brazil wouldn't it.

No not really. The Spa thing was to do with possible poor judgement on behalf of the stewards, what you're suggesting here is a conspiracy involving two teams at the least.

[TMorel]

I thought he was refering to the conspiracy theory about Kimi deliberately giving up a win by driving into the wall at Spa during the rain.

[Jag_Warrior]

Would be interesting to see all the Lewis fans that believed in something fishy after Spa and immediately shot down the possibility of anything going on in Brazil wouldn't it.

Spa smelled like a 5 day old flounder totally off ice, IMO. But nothing was ever suggested about any of the teams in that case, as far as I know. It was all to do with the stewards.

Nothing against your original question. But as several have mentioned, considering this situation developed in the last few moments of the race, how exactly would McLaren have negotiated an acceptable bribe to Toyota? I mean, it's not as if they had an hour or two to hammer out an agreement. How would the need to slow have been communicated to Glock without the FIA picking up on it?

Me, I love a good conspiracy theory. But in order for a conspiracy to work, there must be time enough for ample planning on how to pull it off. In this case, there was not.

I'll tell you what I did expect though: a stewards' decision penalizing Hamilton for something or another. I suspect that's why he drove what seemed to be the most (overly) cautious race that I can remember from him. If not for the steering wheel not being secured, I figured they'd get him for groping a grid girl... surely he must have done something! :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

If Glock had wanted to finish behind Hamilton, he need only have pitted for wet tyres along with everybody else.

[truefan72]

If Glock had wanted to finish behind Hamilton, he need only have pitted for wet tyres along with everybody else.

:up:

[Valve Bounce]

If Glock had wanted to finish behind Hamilton, he need only have pitted for wet tyres along with everybody else.

:up:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If Glock had wanted to finish behind Hamilton, he need only have pitted for wet tyres along with everybody else.

Thank the lord! Common sense has returned to the forum!

Best post of the year! :D

[bowers]

If Glock had wanted to finish behind Hamilton, he need only have pitted for wet tyres along with everybody else.


Extremely good point, and its a bit of a wonder why it has taken so long for someone to express it. However there is always, always a way around anything if you believe in a conspiracy. I've already stated that I don't think there was a conspiracy but it wouldn't be too hard to come with an explanation as to why the Toyota's pitted... they would've wanted to be in the points but didn't expect to stay ahead of Lewis at the end so Glock slowed or whatever.

You could even say why didn't they just sabotage their own car so that they didn't finish the race, but in the end you can always argue back on forth on this one like most conspiracy theories, from landing on the moon, to JFK, to Elvis. You can argue forever.

[bowers]

Had the title been: "Did Glock slow down on purpose to let Hamilton win?", I suspect the discussion would not have been so heated.

But as it stands, the title of this thread insinuates bribery on the part of McLaren and this is libelous.

Now we have both Massa and Glock explaining what really happened, and the author of this silly thread still tries to defend his argument. Now how stupid is that?

Did you read over the question mark!?!?!? DUH!

[bowers]

Bowers: Let it go. I do not think anyone thinks it was arranged. Outside of the dollars involved for points in the championship the logistics of setting it up in the heat of a race and communications made it impossible. Valve Bounce and I agree that your thread heading was provocative. I have read posts by you on other threads and appreciate your thoughts.
Please just drop it.
Besides you are giving the rest of us 'Crazy Canucks' a bad name. :D

I don't think it was arranged! I think people should go through the 4 or 5 instances in which I've stated this and get it right.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Extremely good point, and its a bit of a wonder why it has taken so long for someone to express it. However there is always, always a way around anything if you believe in a conspiracy. I've already stated that I don't think there was a conspiracy but it wouldn't be too hard to come with an explanation as to why the Toyota's pitted... they would've wanted to be in the points but didn't expect to stay ahead of Lewis at the end so Glock slowed or whatever.

You could even say why didn't they just sabotage their own car so that they didn't finish the race, but in the end you can always argue back on forth on this one like most conspiracy theories, from landing on the moon, to JFK, to Elvis. You can argue forever.

I can see why questions may have been raised in the immediate aftermath of the race, but now all the facts have come to light, the matter is no longer worthy of discussion IMO.

[Valve Bounce]

Did you read over the question mark!?!?!? DUH!

So!! your point being...............

But your "DUH" sounds familiar!

[PSfan]

If Glock had wanted to finish behind Hamilton, he need only have pitted for wet tyres along with everybody else.


Well... If Hamilton hadn't let Vettel by, then Glock wouldn't have had to slow down to let Hamiton finish 5th :p

[ArrowsFA1]

I've already stated that I don't think there was a conspiracy...
Why raise it then :confused:

[Knock-on]

Why raise it then :confused:

I'm going to start a new thread.


Max being paid off by the Mafia

I don't believe it, have no evidence to support it and it makes no sense but nothing like a good bit of Trolling :)

[airshifter]

Well... If Hamilton hadn't let Vettel by, then Glock wouldn't have had to slow down to let Hamiton finish 5th :p


They must have had it worked out so if any other driver got past Hamilton, then one of others in front already would give up a position. Simple eh? :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

They must have had it worked out so if any other driver got past Hamilton, then one of others in front already would give up a position. Simple eh? :laugh:

Let me know when it's Rubens's turn. :D

[bowers]

So!! your point being...............

But your "DUH" sounds familiar!

Hmm... I dunno, why do you suppose I used a question mark? I reitterate... DUH!

[bowers]

Why raise it then :confused:

... it's called a forum. You discuss stuff in a forum. That's what people like you and me do!

[Easy Drifter]

By forum rules I can not say what I think of you and your opinions.
I will just say you rank, in my opinion, some where lower than a snake's belly.
In my opinion you have absolutely no compression of motor racing.
Have you ever competed at any level outside of illegal street races?
You started a very evocative thread with no real purpose except to create unneeded contreversy.
The thread had died a very natural and sensible death until you had to shoot your mouth off again.
Unfortunately every country has idiots.

Mods: Please accept I toned this down from my original thoughts.