Rise of the Phoenix?

[Nappy]

GreenPrixUSA

Well, the rumors have been flying.
The good news is, some of what you may have been hearing is true.

GreenPrix USA is a new race series debuting in 2009 that will be utilizing the Reynard and Panoz Champ Cars. GreenPrix USA's founder is media mogul Ben Johnston. Ben has also acquired ownership of the Cooper Tires Atlantic Championship, powered by Mazda, where he has also been a competitor in past years. The Atlantic Series will be sanctioned under IMSA in 2009. GreenPrix USA's ultimate goal is to bring back premiere open wheel racing at all levels that reflects the purest racing values that the fans and drivers love. Also, to provide a platform for all green initiatives involved in automotive performance. The first race of the 2009 season for the GreenPrix USA Cars and the Atlantic Series will be March 13-15 in Savannah, Georgia on St. Patrick's Day weekend.

GreenPrix USA will be environmentally focused through the development of racing criteria coupled with green technology that will include: use of ecologically designed/friendly fuel sources, cut-back/regulation of GHG emissions and overall reduction of energy and petroleum displacement. GreenPrix USA will also provide corporate partners the opportunity to feature, showcase and develop their Green initiatives in the racing market and utilize the knowledge to impact the consumer market.
If you are interested in being notified of new developments with respect to the GreenPrix Series, please send us an email request to do so. You will get only very relevant emails, and only when there is something of substance to tell you. You will be free to unsubscribe at any time, and we guarantee that your email address will be held in strictest confidence.
[email:3b00agpx]Info@GreenPrixUSA.com[/email:3b00agpx]

[garyshell]

Ah, yes. Just what we need. Another open wheel series competing for sponsors, fans and venues. Didn't we do this once before? It's Deja Vu all over again. This time though it has a nice shiny new coat of "green" paint. What a joke. There is nothing "green" about this series at its start, only the HOPE of it becoming somehow more "green".

Anyone seen any Vegas odds on the longevity of this series? I give it less than one year from today. My usual bet of a six pack of GOOD beer goes to the first taker willing to risk the same. I will be really surprised if they do one race. Remember the best way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a large one. Let's hope Mr. Johnston knows that. The likelihood of him garnering any REAL sponsors is somewhere between slim and none. Hello, Ben, it's the economy stupid. This is not the right time to be floating this sort of initiative. Not that there ever would be a "right time".

IMNSHO,

Gary

[Chris R]

Well, they are recycling cars :p

Anyway - sounds like high-end club racing to me - the only relevant thing to this board is that they are using old champ cars.

Doubts to the success of the concept aside, not sure this is any kind of anything to the IRL or AOWR in general - kind of like grand prix masters etc.

[downtowndeco]

This is a no go from day one. People do not spend their entertainment dollars based on PC causes. They spend their money based on how much ENTERTAINMENT they get for each dollar they spend. Period, end of discussion. They may get a green investor or two but this is going nowhere.

Of course, it will give the CCF a series to cheer for. Perhaps they should just name it "NOT TONY GEORGE"S SERIES" & get it over with. : ).

[NickFalzone]

I agree with Chris, from the article at least I don't see GreenPrix as a top-tier series that would compete with IRL. They're saying in 2010 they'll be racing with older CC tubs. In fact, I'd say this is good news for open wheel fans, more decent quality road course racing to check out. In the odd chance that it actually takes off and they have a new spec for 2013-15, then I'd be annoyed to have 2 competing series. But that looks like a longshot at best.

[dataman1]

I spoke to a person who attended the Atlantics banquet when this guy announced ownership. My source overheard that the series will own the cars and engines and people with cash can rent one for the season. Show up at the track with your firesuit and helmet and jump in. Oh, I forgot, the check has to clear the bank first. If true this is no threat to ICS and just a way to use old tubs. I give it a 35% chance of making it.

[beachbum]

Sounds like another reincarnation of the American Indycar Series. Bet it won't last as long.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5279/is_199806/ai_n24342096

[Chamoo]

Ah, yes. Just what we need. Another open wheel series competing for sponsors, fans and venues. Didn't we do this once before? It's Deja Vu all over again. This time though it has a nice shiny new coat of "green" paint. What a joke. There is nothing "green" about this series at its start, only the HOPE of it becoming somehow more "green".

Anyone seen any Vegas odds on the longevity of this series? I give it less than one year from today. My usual bet of a six pack of GOOD beer goes to the first taker willing to risk the same. I will be really surprised if they do one race. Remember the best way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a large one. Let's hope Mr. Johnston knows that. The likelihood of him garnering any REAL sponsors is somewhere between slim and none. Hello, Ben, it's the economy stupid. This is not the right time to be floating this sort of initiative. Not that there ever would be a "right time".

IMNSHO,

Gary

So what are the official terms of the bet?

[garyshell]

So what are the official terms of the bet?

Official terms

1. Number of bets: Only available to one other forum member, first come first served.
2. Amount of wager: One 6 pack of premium beer of the winners choosing, with a $10 cap on price.
3. Delivery of winners "prize": Payable by a check, to avoid sending beer through the mail. Too messy!
4. Text of bet: The Greenprix series will not exist as a viable series (actually holding sanctioned races) one year from today. Oct. 20, 2008.


Gary

[Sandfly]

Yep ,, you guys are right. Never gonna work.. Nothing to see here... just keep moving along. Guy doesn't know what he is doing... old cars ,, rent-a rides.. nothing good happnin there...

[SarahFan]

Official terms

1. Number of bets: Only available to one other forum member, first come first served.
2. Amount of wager: One 6 pack of premium beer of the winners choosing, with a $10 cap on price.
3. Delivery of winners "prize": Payable by a check, to avoid sending beer through the mail. Too messy!
4. Text of bet: The Greenprix series will not exist as a viable series (actually holding sanctioned races) one year from today. Oct. 20, 2008.


Gary


I'll take the bet Gary..... not becuase i believe in the series....but because I'm a gambler and i think the guy has dough to keep it afloat for at the very min two seasons

[Cart750hp]

God no! Not another feud and waste of money. Is Forsythe involved in this? I won't be surprised if he is...

[garyshell]

I'll take the bet Gary..... not becuase i believe in the series....but because I'm a gambler and i think the guy has dough to keep it afloat for at the very min two seasons


Done. He might have the dough, but where is he going to find the ride buyers? We'll resume this conversation a year from today.

Gary

[Claus Hansen]

Betting is fun...
Anyone taking my bet on Indycar's having a 18 grid for the first race in 2011 ?
Still, at least the are trying to run a nice looking chassis !

[seppefan]

I do not see this as a distraction to the IRL or US OW racing. In the UK Formula Palmer Audi is a arrive and drive series and it has allowed a large number of drivers to race cheaply and some have gone on to greater things ( Justin Wilson ) The new FIA Formula 2 will be similar.
If this is cheap enough to attract grids of a minimum of 18 then I think it will be a feeder series allowing drivers experience of 700 bhp cars and allowing IRL team managers the chance to check out the talent. In no way can it compete with the IRL and I do not think it is trying to. If it is then forget it as it will not work but if it is a cheap rent a drive option then I feel it has a chance. I do not see it taking major sponsors as it needs to be cheap enough ( as is Palmer & F2) . Cheap is the passport here.

[dataman1]

God no! Not another feud and waste of money. Is Forsythe involved in this? I won't be surprised if he is...

I bet Forsythe would be happy to sell his DP01's.

[indycool]

What Gary said.

The guy apparently has two series now and I don't note anything about Vicki O'Connor, who guided the Atlantics through all its other rough times and good times. I don't see any seasoned racing people involved. And, as others have said, how many people are going to "arrive and drive?" And how safe is THAT going to be?

[garyshell]

I do not see this as a distraction to the IRL or US OW racing.


You may not see it as a distraction to US OW racing, but I think the principles involved do. Either that or they have an over exuberant PR department. Witness this quote from the first post:


GreenPrix USA's ultimate goal is to bring back premiere open wheel racing at all levels that reflects the purest racing values that the fans and drivers love.

Sounds like they have larger aspirations to me.

Gary

[nanders]

Official terms

1. Number of bets: Only available to one other forum member, first come first served.
2. Amount of wager: One 6 pack of premium beer of the winners choosing, with a $10 cap on price.
3. Delivery of winners "prize": Payable by a check, to avoid sending beer through the mail. Too messy!
4. Text of bet: The Greenprix series will not exist as a viable series (actually holding sanctioned races) one year from today. Oct. 20, 2008.


Gary

Why wait? Gary, just let me buy you some beer now. :)

[garyshell]

Why wait? Gary, just let me buy you some beer now. :)


Otay! Your bar or mine?

Gary

[Sandfly]

You'll note the 1st race is at Roebling Road, very definately a club track, and possibly a harbinger of their plans; AIS anyone?. They haven't mentioned engines (unless I over looked it skimming through the blurb), it won't be Cosworths on their budget. So what will it be? Stock block chevys? That'll be interesting adapting them to the DP01s. This is a bush league rich guy effort. I'm predicting 14 cars max on the grid for the first one. No doubt whatsoever they'll have fun doing it, but it ain't professional racing.


Your information is wrong. There is no Atlantic or GP race scheduled or planned for Roebling Road, which is definatley a club track. But never mind. Pay this series no attention...

[Marbles]

It'll be fun to check out for sure. I don't know why some folks here seem to get their back up over this type of thing. Whatever. Plenty of room in North America for motorsport, just not enough sponsors. Sink or swim.

I don't care if it's Formula Vee or Formula One as long as the racing's good. It'd be nice to see that Panoz again. Maybe they can get a nice lease price from Cosworth on all those dusty engines as well. What else are they doing over there anyways?
:)

[anthonyvop]

The Island Track has been refurbished and will be used by the Atlantics and the Greenprix next Spring.

[Miatanut]

They haven't mentioned engines (unless I over looked it skimming through the blurb), it won't be Cosworths on their budget. So what will it be? Stock block chevys? That'll be interesting adapting them to the DP01s.

Why wouldn't they be Cosworths? The Cossie is the engine of choice for vintage racing modern F1 cars, on account of it's a reasonable size and it doesn't take an army of engineers to keep the thing running. It might be an XD instead of an XFE, but since the XFE got detuned, and they are going to detune it even further, it might be cost competitive with an XD.

[FIAT1]

Ah, yes. Just what we need. Another open wheel series competing for sponsors, fans and venues. Didn't we do this once before?

Gary

Agree, we need a new open wheel series as much we needed one in 1996.

[anthonyvop]

Agree, we need a new open wheel series as much we needed one in 1996.

Couldn't agree more.

We are fine with our, so called, premier formula racing series using a chassis deign that is nearing 10 years of age and boat anchors for motors.

[garyshell]

Couldn't agree more.

We are fine with our, so called, premier formula racing series using a chassis deign that is nearing 10 years of age and boat anchors for motors.

Both of which are in the process of being replaced.

So I take it you think this new "series" is a good idea?

Gary

[MDS]

My boyfriend (Half Asian, half Irish so he's Irasian or Asianish) and I are talking about going to Savannah for St. Patrick's Day. They get like 400,000 people that weekend so its a great time to host a race. If I get a chance to make it over to the Island for the race I'll post some pictures to see what kind of event they put on.

[bennybigb]

Maybe this is where we will see Marty Roth race next year.

I think it will be great to see the Champ Cars racing again, even if it is in a Jr. racing format.

The IRL refuses to race at a number of great road courses, perhaps GP will be able to help fill the void. I think the people of Cleveland, Houston and Portland would love their races back.

Go Green Prix!!

[indycool]

Where has the IRL "refused to race", Benny?

[SarahFan]

Where has the IRL "refused to race", Benny?


louden and las vegas in 2009

[indycool]

"Refused" is a far cry from "didn't work out right now for BOTH parties."

[SarahFan]

"Refused" is a far cry from "didn't work out right now for BOTH parties."

both asked for races in 2009... so it seems it would work for them

[Miatanut]

Both of which are in the process of being replaced.

I'll believe it when I see it. The schedule keeps sliding, and the latest is they have concluded they need it to be high downforce, eliminating anything to get excited about.

I don't think GreenPrix is the answer, but there is definitely a market out there for somebody who wants to run a low downforce, high power, open wheel road racing series.

In other words, a series which in no way competes with the IRL.

[bennybigb]

I don't think GreenPrix is the answer, but there is definitely a market out there for somebody who wants to run a low downforce, high power, open wheel road racing series.

In other words, a series which in no way competes with the IRL.

HA!! Nicely put!

I don't know why all the IRLers are getting upset about Green Prix. The IRL will still be the same series it always has been. Big circles and air boxes.....YAWN.

[garyshell]

HA!! Nicely put!

I don't know why all the IRLers are getting upset about Green Prix. The IRL will still be the same series it always has been. Big circles and air boxes.....YAWN.


Can't speak for the "IRLers", but this AOWR fan is not real excited to see another round of the saga of two AOWR series competing for sponsors, fans, venues, drivers or viewers. Especially one with this hair brained idea of a "arrive and drive" series trying to go head to head with the existing series. And don't give me that tired old, "well they are going after a different market" BS. The quotes from their own PR, and the latest suggestion that they would be happy to go to Surfer's Paradise if the IRL leaves, disprove that notion.

But for the sake of argument, let's say they want to "co-exist". Didn't we just have that experiment? It didn't work. Look, when the IRL first came out of the box, I said the same thing. We didn't need a second series then. And I think the same is true now. Just because the wrong series won the war, and I agree with that notion, doesn't mean another war is needed. Despite the fact that my favored series didn't come out on top, I am not going to support another round of battles. No one is set to win in that scenario.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

If and that is a big if this series gets off the ground I worry about the quality of the drivers. It is a pay to drive so there may be some totally incompentent drivers that would make Marty and Milka look like superstars. Is there any testing time or are we going to see some idiot who has never driven anything a street stock sedan hopping into one of these things with no testing time, at the first race.
Have they got approval from the ASN or will it be totally outlaw?
I have a nasty feeling that Formula Atlantic will be toast as well.

[indycool]

Yes, Ken, both asked about races in '09. It's my understanding that scheduling didn't fit for '09 but Loudon's on the front burner for the IRL for '10.

There are a lot of questions to be answered other than "I wanna have a race." There are, for both sanctioning body and track, schedule, TV, weather, money and other things to be decided. Main reason I heard from both sides was schedule.

I can't buy a Ferrari right now but that doesn't mean I REFUSED to buy one.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This sounds like the naive ramblings of a guy with too much money on his hands.

First off, the world and the US in particular does NOT need yet another race series. Period. The economy is going through coughing up one big ole hair ball and this dumb@ss wants to start a race series using recycled chassis and engines and putting a "Green" tag on it?

Second of all the market for name drivers is limited. They all with the exception of PT have gigs and PT I am sure will laugh when he hears about this show. Don't even go into the lack of owners who have the money to risk on something like this, even if the economy wasn't tightening up.

This is a fantasy league going to reality with little respect to what the market needs or requires. In short, it is a business model with great aspirations and little grounding in reality. Hate to see someone waste his money...but he is wasting his money.

[SarahFan]

Yes, Ken, both asked about races in '09. It's my understanding that scheduling didn't fit for '09 but Loudon's on the front burner for the IRL for '10.

There are a lot of questions to be answered other than "I wanna have a race." There are, for both sanctioning body and track, schedule, TV, weather, money and other things to be decided. Main reason I heard from both sides was schedule.

I can't buy a Ferrari right now but that doesn't mean I REFUSED to buy one.

but if you bought a ferrari it would certainly work for ferrari...

again.... both wanted dates on the 2009 schedule..... the IRL isn't running at either

[indycool]

But it would bankrupt me. That doesn't work.

[SarahFan]

But it would bankrupt me. That doesn't work.


adding an oval or two would certainly have a appeased a few loyalist ....instead we will see 1/2 full stands at the 25k seat .6tv rated belle isle

perfect!

[indycool]

Time will tell.

[Miatanut]

Can't speak for the "IRLers", but this AOWR fan is not real excited to see another round of the saga of two AOWR series competing for sponsors, fans, venues, drivers or viewers. Especially one with this hair brained idea of a "arrive and drive" series trying to go head to head with the existing series. And don't give me that tired old, "well they are going after a different market" BS. The quotes from their own PR, and the latest suggestion that they would be happy to go to Surfer's Paradise if the IRL leaves, disprove that notion.

But for the sake of argument, let's say they want to "co-exist". Didn't we just have that experiment? It didn't work. Look, when the IRL first came out of the box, I said the same thing. We didn't need a second series then. And I think the same is true now. Just because the wrong series won the war, and I agree with that notion, doesn't mean another war is needed. Despite the fact that my favored series didn't come out on top, I am not going to support another round of battles. No one is set to win in that scenario.

Gary

I don't agree. Do ALMS and NASCAR get in each other's way? This would not need to be any different. A series starting from scratch, completely focused on open wheel road racing, with zero connections to Indy. Another series which revolves around Indy and is currently having problems with it's core fan base because it has strayed away from the all-ovals formula by adding "street race parades". Freed from the pressure of trying to be all things to all people, the IRL could go back to what it does best, while the new open wheel road racing series could focus on what it does best. Some fans will watch both.

[indycool]

When we hear about things like grid, schedule, money, etc., guess we'll know how viable it is or isn't. IMO, the Atlantics could continue with the right breaks because of their history but the hodge-podge of old Reynards and DP-01s might be better suited for the vintage set to be viable.....if, indeed, the money is there to even run them.

[garyshell]

I don't agree. Do ALMS and NASCAR get in each other's way? This would not need to be any different. A series starting from scratch, completely focused on open wheel road racing, with zero connections to Indy. Another series which revolves around Indy and is currently having problems with it's core fan base because it has strayed away from the all-ovals formula by adding "street race parades". Freed from the pressure of trying to be all things to all people, the IRL could go back to what it does best, while the new open wheel road racing series could focus on what it does best. Some fans will watch both.


Wow, you sound just like Tony George did back in 1996. I didn't agree with him then, I don't agree with you now.

ALMS and NASCAR. Are you freakin' kidding me? Saying those two are as different from each other as ICS and "Green" Prix, is the most ridiculous thing that has been said thus far in this thread.

"Same fans will watch both." Didn't you learn a thing from the last 13 years?

Gary

[Chris R]

When we hear about things like grid, schedule, money, etc., guess we'll know how viable it is or isn't. IMO, the Atlantics could continue with the right breaks because of their history but the hodge-podge of old Reynards and DP-01s might be better suited for the vintage set to be viable.....if, indeed, the money is there to even run them.

I think the vintage guys are exactly who this is aimed at - guys who get a taste for speed but either do not have the heart or cash to race their vintage F-1 car and keep it "original"..... They might be talking the big talk right now - but I think that is what this is really about (don't forget vintage guys tend to be vintage guys because it is "real" and "pure" racing - or at least harkens back to that era (which may be viewed with rose colored glasses in some cases..)....

[Sandfly]

I think the vintage guys are exactly who this is aimed at - guys who get a taste for speed but either do not have the heart or cash to race their vintage F-1 car and keep it "original"..... They might be talking the big talk right now - but I think that is what this is really about (don't forget vintage guys tend to be vintage guys because it is "real" and "pure" racing - or at least harkens back to that era (which may be viewed with rose colored glasses in some cases..)....

keep quessing Tony fans.. nobody has it right yet. Better yet, just ignore this whole thing and save your energy. It really will have no bearing on the IRL, or ride buyers, or vintage racing....so why worry about it?

[anthonyvop]

Both of which are in the process of being replaced.
One can only hope.

So I take it you think this new "series" is a good idea?
Gary

Somebody has to bring top tier Formula Racing to the US. I am not saying this is it but it could be a start.

[garyshell]

Somebody has to bring top tier Formula Racing to the US. I am not saying this is it but it could be a start.


I'm not really sure that long in the tooth Reynards and DP01s (though that WAS a nice car) with detuned Cosworths, driven by rent a ride rich guys and all run out of the same operation qualifies as "top tier".

Or even a "start".

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Or even a "start".

Gary

But lets be clear here. The true motivation to those that would support this series is that it is not run by TG. That's it.

[garyshell]

But lets be clear here. The true motivation to those that would support this series is that it is not run by TG. That's it.


It's always an "us versus them" argument for you, isn't it? While I agree there would be a certain constituency among their possible supporters that feel that way, I am in no way ready to suggest it is the ONLY constituency. As mentioned before there are likely to be a group of vintage folks (both drivers and fans) who will be interested.

Hell, if it turns out that all the PR fluff about its "ultimate goal is to bring back premiere open wheel racing at all levels that reflects the purest racing values that the fans and drivers love", turns out to be just PR fluff and its REAL goal is to be nothing more than a "arrive and drive" series which doesn't represent a challenge to competing for sponsors, venues or teams, then I'll watch too.

Gary

[Chris R]

But lets be clear here. The true motivation to those that would support this series is that it is not run by TG. That's it.
You may be right - but I don't think so - this one is not about the IRL. I really think this is just a guy using old Champcars in an effort to create a niche in a significantly different area of the motor-sports spectrum than the IRL. Like Gary, I doubt this thing makes it far, and I am pretty sure it will never see "real" television. I seriously doubt the efficacy of his plan in this economy.

Anyway, to the defenders and haters of TG alike - I really do not think Greenprix represents ANYTHING to the IRL.... At the most it will cause some people to attend one of their races instead of an IRL race that is less convenient (i.e. - if Greenprix were to ever come to NJMP I would probably drop any thoughts of ever going to see the IRL 5 hours away in Watkins Glen - but if both come to NJMP I'd go to both...)

[NickFalzone]

That would be nice if they had a race or two in the NY/NJ area. IndyCar, forget about it, and NASCAR, no thanks. I do not see it any differently than a vintage series or Atlantics, which sounds like it's going under anyway. But if they want to rebrand it as "CC is no longer dead" and get some of the diehards, then I guess that's an ok business approach. No one says they have to be honest in their marketing or press releases.

[indycool]

If they rebrand it as "CC is no longer dead", they better bring more money than Kalkhoven and Forsythe.

[anthonyvop]

I'm not really sure that long in the tooth Reynards and DP01s (though that WAS a nice car) with detuned Cosworths, driven by rent a ride rich guys and all run out of the same operation qualifies as "top tier". It's more like Skip Barber on steroids.

And the IRL is?

Right now there are 4 formula series that have superior cars and technology.

F1
GP2
A1GP
Superleague

Doen't say much about a series when 3 "ladder" series are above the US's top series.

[anthonyvop]

But lets be clear here. The true motivation to those that would support this series is that it is not run by TG. That's it.

Really?

And how did you come to that conclusion?

[NickFalzone]

And the IRL is?

Right now there are 4 formula series that have superior cars and technology.

F1
GP2
A1GP
Superleague

Doen't say much about a series when 3 "ladder" series are above the US's top series.

And which of those actually run 200+ mph on ovals? Oh yeah, none. They're all road course-specific cars, not comparable. Regardless of the Honda/Dallara technology, it's a solid spec that has run its course and within 2 years will have a successor. Is this other series offering a new spec in that timeframe, or any? No.

[indycool]

Agreed, Nick.....and it's just Anthony's opinion about the "ladder."

[downtowndeco]

Let me clarify. I was talking about the "fans" that are rah rahing this potential series, not the investors. IMO the investors are just trying to make a buck and there is nothing against that. But I can't take any "fans" who think this is a good idea seriously, can you Gary? You know their motivation.



It's always an "us versus them" argument for you, isn't it? While I agree there would be a certain constituency among their possible supporters that feel that way, I am in no way ready to suggest it is the ONLY constituency. As mentioned before there are likely to be a group of vintage folks (both drivers and fans) who will be interested.

Hell, if it turns out that all the PR fluff about its "ultimate goal is to bring back premiere open wheel racing at all levels that reflects the purest racing values that the fans and drivers love", turns out to be just PR fluff and its REAL goal is to be nothing more than a "arrive and drive" series which doesn't represent a challenge to competing for sponsors, venues or teams, then I'll watch too.

Gary

[garyshell]

Let me clarify. I was talking about the "fans" that are rah rahing this potential series, not the investors. IMO the investors are just trying to make a buck and there is nothing against that. But I can't take any "fans" who think this is a good idea seriously, can you Gary? You know their motivation.

Do I? Do you? Are you lurking on the old "crapwagon" sites and taking what they might be saying as the opinion of ALL the potential fans of this series? (I have no idea what is or is not being said there. I quit looking MONTHS ago.) The point is, it is much to early to tell WHO the fans might be, because we don't know yet what the series even is. If it doesn't try to position itself as a rival to ICS, then I might be a fan too.

As I said before in your rush to judgment, you are turning this into another of your "us versus them" arguments. I am having none of it. Until I know what this series is beyond the PR fluff we have seen thus far, I am reserving further judgment beyond my initial claim that it won't be around a year from now based SOLELY on it being an arrive and drive business model.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

I'm going by the guys who have posted here in support of this new series. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that their only motivation is to see "Green" race cars. BS.


Do I? Do you? Are you lurking on the old "crapwagon" sites and taking what they might be saying as the opinion of ALL the potential fans of this series? (I have no idea what is or is not being said there. I quit looking MONTHS ago.) The point is, it is much to early to tell WHO the fans might be, because we don't know yet what the series even is. If it doesn't try to position itself as a rival to ICS, then I might be a fan too.

As I said before in your rush to judgment, you are turning this into another of your "us versus them" arguments. I am having none of it. Until I know what this series is beyond the PR fluff we have seen thus far, I am reserving further judgment beyond my initial claim that it won't be around a year from now based SOLELY on it being an arrive and drive business model.

Gary

[Chris R]

Who wouldn't want to see a Champcar turn its wheels in anger once again, or a CanAm car or a turbo F-1 or a Group c, or a.... People can be "excited" about Greenprix with no thought whatsoever about TG or the big picture of AOWR in general....

Also, a formula is a formula. The only cars that are CLEARLY technologically above an IRL car are F-1 cars and ALMS prototypes... I think all the other formulas mentioned are not much different from the IRL in that they are spec chassis and engines that all have rev limiters, carbon chassis and appropriately advanced aero-dynamics for their purpose... They amy be newer - but that does not necessarily mean better....

[bennybigb]

Good Point Chris R.

I would support Green Prix because I love Champ Cars, not because I hate TG (I do, but so do most people). I would also love to see turbo F1 racing again, or GTP cars. How sweet would that be!

Racing was so much cooler in the 1980s

[anthonyvop]

And which of those actually run 200+ mph on ovals? Oh yeah, none. .
"YAWN"


They're all road course-specific cars, not comparable. Regardless of the Honda/Dallara technology, it's a solid spec that has run its course and within 2 years will have a successor. .
You can hope


Is this other series offering a new spec in that timeframe, or any? No.
the DP01 is a generation and a half ahead of the IRL Dallara Chassis. The Reynard is of the same generation as the Dallara.

[indycool]

1. Sorry 200 doesn't register with you.
2. Already in process....it will.
3. Please explain to us how far ahead the DP01 is ahead on ovals and even what the major difference might be on a road course. If the Dallara is slower, you already said 200 doesn't mean anything, so I guess slower doesn't mean anything, either. Doesn't compute, anthony.

[NickFalzone]

"YAWN"


You can hope


the DP01 is a generation and a half ahead of the IRL Dallara Chassis. The Reynard is of the same generation as the Dallara.

Fair enough, though the Dallara has had many updates along the way. Interestingly the times of the Dallara in 08 were fairly competitive with CC times at the same tracks like Edmonton. Today's Australia practice times were 2-3 secs off last year's DP01 times with top IRL times same as bottom CC times, so it's an exaggeration to say the IRL cars are so off the pace on the roads/streets. Handling and shocks may lead to some problems, but the speed is good for cars that are not road specific designs.

[CCWS77]

Just the fact that some people have thier panties all in a bunch over this shows they think it might not actually be so irrelevant.


Fair enough, though the Dallara has had many updates along the way. Interestingly the times of the Dallara in 08 were fairly competitive with CC times at the same tracks like Edmonton. Today's Australia practice times were 2-3 secs off last year's DP01 times with top IRL times same as bottom CC times, so it's an exaggeration to say the IRL cars are so off the pace on the roads/streets. Handling and shocks may lead to some problems, but the speed is good for cars that are not road specific designs.

Um, IRL is 4 or 5 seconds off the pace. If you want to start comparing the fastest IRL to slowest CC's that were off the pace, you better be careful not to lose your rose colored glasses when comparing Atlantic to the IRL at Edmonton or else you might be in for a shock.

[garyshell]

Good Point Chris R.

I would support Green Prix because I love Champ Cars, not because I hate TG (I do, but so do most people). I would also love to see turbo F1 racing again, or GTP cars. How sweet would that be!

Racing was so much cooler in the 1980s


Who wouldn't want to see a Champcar turn its wheels in anger once again, or a CanAm car or a turbo F-1 or a Group c, or a.... People can be "excited" about Greenprix with no thought whatsoever about TG or the big picture of AOWR in general....


I'm going by the guys who have posted here in support of this new series. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me that their only motivation is to see "Green" race cars. BS.


Ok, I'll oblige you. You are wrong! See the two quotes above your's. Am I saying that ALL of those who have posted on this subject are not TG haters. Of course not. But you, on the other had are trying to say that they all are. You are wrong. Some of them, including me are in the same camp as Chris R. I would love to see those CCWS cars again, just like I'd love to see Can Am cars again. Not in the context of the old CCWS cars in a series trying to compete with ICS, or the CAN-AM cars in a series trying to compete with ALMS. No, I don't want to see that. But in the context of a vintage series, or a exhibition series, or some other minor role in the grand scheme of things, hell ya. That's why I, unlike you, am waiting to see how this really plays out before I start hating it.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

Just the fact that some people have thier panties all in a bunch over this shows they think it might not actually be so irrelevant.



Um, IRL is 4 or 5 seconds off the pace. If you want to start comparing the fastest IRL to slowest CC's that were off the pace, you better be careful not to lose your rose colored glasses when comparing Atlantic to the IRL at Edmonton or else you might be in for a shock.

They're not 4-5 secs, they're 2-3 secs off last years pace of a supposedly generation and a half newer car. I see 34s from Will and 31s from last year's qualifying. And once again, Atlantics, Formula cars, or whatever road-racing cars you want to bring up are not a direct comparison. I'm not suggesting that the IRL is a great street racing car... but for a spec that was primarily designed for oval-racing, it has done reasonably well on the old cart tracks. And as has been said many times before, no one in attendance can tell a few secs per lap difference from the stands, so until we get back to the point where the cars are trying to break track records, just enjoy it for the competitive racing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Listen. For anyone to say the current IRL chassis was an oval only chassis is a bit of a joke. First off, the cars are NOT offset. The only adaptation the cars ever had to have to run road racing was wing packages and where the fuel buckeye sat depending on the course. THATS IT. So spare me all this rot about how the IRL cars are not doing too bad for an oval specific design. They were designed to race period by people who know damned well that sooner or later they would be run on road courses. If the IRL never had any intention of running road courses EVER (which was the theory in 95), why didn't the rules laid for this formula allow for offset suspension, weight jacked to the left and asymetrical layouts that would make them far more adaptable to turning left all day?

The DP01 was 3 seconds faster than the current IRL cars at Edmonton due to their horsepower and yes...their more modern design. That doesn't mean this IRL car is inferior really as a racing car since they do race well and are entertaining. Faster isn't always better. That said, spare me this fiction they were an oval only design "adapted". The DP-01 I am sure would run like jack the bear on ovals and likely wouldn't give up anything to the IRL car. Why? SImple...that Cossie has about 100 to 150 more ponies...duh!!!

Now getting back on topic, this new "green" series is an interesting concept made by someone who doesn't really understand the pitfalls of what he is going into. Maybe someone like Forsythe or Kalkoven should give him a call.....and tell him to forget the whole idea.

[weeflyonthewall]

"Refused" is a far cry from "didn't work out right now for BOTH parties."

"BOTH" is a copout. George has demonstrated his lack of flexibility for years.

[indycool]

Baloney.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC....you and I can disagree for days on Tony and his willingness...but I would suggest for you to say Tony's strategy of stone walling was a willingness to work with CART/CCWS is a bit of a farce. His theory of "I have the money and the playpen" worked in hindsight....so spare me the PR spin that Tony was a willing guy for a merger. He wanted it..on his terms..and in the end he did get it.

[indycool]

You're right that we could disagree for days....and there's no point in doing that any more.

[pits4me]

Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.

[indycool]

I didn't like to see the Trans Am go away and I would not like to see the Atlantics diminished or go away. Surfers is thousands of miles away on a channel I don't get, they apparently want to focus on this as a North American series and I have no idea of the financial feasibility of the deal.

[downtowndeco]

Again, you have CCWS management to blame for that, not TG.


Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.

[garyshell]

Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.


Again, you have CCWS management to blame for that, not TG.

Another us versus them argument, huh? Why am I not surprised? A few FACTS you might want to consider.

#1. CCWS mangement did not own the Atlantic series. Gerry Forsythe did.
#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.

Gary

[CCWS77]

If you want to end the US vs THEM stuff then the first step is to accept facts and not act as propoganda spokesmen. We can start by not making up numbers. Power is more then 4 seconds behind last year not 2-3. The slowest CC's were faster then IRL pole.

FYI Atlantic was around 4.5 second slower then IRL pole at Edmonton. Realistically, the IRL as a series is halfway inbetween the speeds of Atlantic and CCWS, not equal to CC. If you really want to accept that and use rationalizations about how it doesnt matter or that the IRL is oval focused, I guess that is a matter of opinion. but that is kind of weak since this is racing

I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore, argue which cars are faster in racing doesnt matter, and fail simple tasks of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch and claim those who attend a racing event would never be able to tell the difference. Just what kind of racing fans are you?

[ShiftingGears]

I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore

It was Bernie who got the Canadian Grand Prix removed from the '09 schedule, not the North American fans.

You are talking about the most powerful and modern open wheel cars that race in North America, right?

[indycool]

Not a matter of hoping something dies, CCWS77. Matter of skepticism based on past history.

And road and street courses are just plain slower than ovals. A few miles an hour here or there on those courses makes little difference, IMO. 50-mile-an-hour hairpins are 50-mile-an-hour hairpins. Maybe your stopwatch tells you 48 or 53. Big deal. I go that fast on my way to work.

And four seconds slower on one of those courses is just about one sip of cold beer.

[NickFalzone]

If you want to end the US vs THEM stuff then the first step is to accept facts and not act as propoganda spokesmen. We can start by not making up numbers. Power is more then 4 seconds behind last year not 2-3. The slowest CC's were faster then IRL pole.

FYI Atlantic was around 4.5 second slower then IRL pole at Edmonton. Realistically, the IRL as a series is halfway inbetween the speeds of Atlantic and CCWS, not equal to CC. If you really want to accept that and use rationalizations about how it doesnt matter or that the IRL is oval focused, I guess that is a matter of opinion. but that is kind of weak since this is racing

I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore, argue which cars are faster in racing doesnt matter, and fail simple tasks of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch and claim those who attend a racing event would never be able to tell the difference. Just what kind of racing fans are you?

You're of course missing the real point, which is that the vast majority of open-wheel fans want 1 series and all the good stuff that comes along with it like full 22-28 car grids, guaranteed 18-20 races per season, big at track attendance, good tv numbers, sponsors that can focus on one series, variety of tracks from ovals to streets, all the best drivers, etc. If all you've got in your bag is that we should have 2 series again because the current one is not as technologically ahead as you'd like, then I think you've got a very weak argument. Even F1 is scaling back technology, and CC was nowhere near F1 so I guess they should have thrown in the towel too. Another 8-10 years of a split series (both spec btw) because one (currently) has an older chassis, would be a sad situation indeed.

[-Helix-]

And the IRL is?

Right now there are 4 formula series that have superior cars and technology.

F1
GP2
A1GP
Superleague

Doen't say much about a series when 3 "ladder" series are above the US's top series.

So in other words all four of the series you mentioned aren't good enough for you, but this "GreenPrix" is? Why does it matter if they race in the U.S. or not? Strictly road/street formula racing is not going to work in the U.S. The IRL will always be superior because Americans like AMERICAN Open Wheel, not the European version. If you like European Open Wheel more, watch one of those four series you think is so much better.

Just some friendly advice. I don't want you to get your hopes up about this GreenPrix because there's no way it survives. (At least if it tries to be bigger than it's vintage racing fate)

You'd think Americans would've learned this by now after TWO bankruptcies by the amigos trying to do the same thing.

[downtowndeco]

#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.

Gary

Well, yes and no. You're lucky the IRL agreed to take it on this year to get the "merger" done. If it doesn't fit in the IRL's schedule from here on out it can hardly be called the IRL's fault. They agree to run a race there this year, and to negotiate future contracts. That's it.

[CCWS77]

Not a matter of hoping something dies, CCWS77. Matter of skepticism based on past history.
Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.



You're of course missing the real point, which is that the vast majority of open-wheel fans want 1 series and all the good stuff that comes along with it
An established buisness needs to continually defend itself against competitors. That is totally different then having one organization split apart into a damaging civil war. If you (or Tony George!) are basing the success of the IRL on the idea that there is a monopoly of only 1 series then clearly you have failed to yet escape from the damaging mindset of the split. Scorched earth for anything that is not under the control of Indianapolis!



If you like European Open Wheel more, watch one of those four series you think is so much better.

Wow you guys are infuriating. So the same crowd that wants to maximize the number of races they get to see in the US and cares little for keeping Surfers has no problem telling others to go take a hike all over the globe. hypocrytes

[ShiftingGears]

Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.


It's pretty damn obvious.

Look at how successful the last 13 years of American open wheel racing was when they had two series competing for the same fans.

Not very successful.

[indycool]

CCWS77:

1. What ug said.
2. Where do you want control of it? Ansan?
3. IRL's made it clear that its focus is North America, particularly the U.S., as the heir to the 90-odd-year-old U.S. National Driving Championship. Unlike its bankrupt predecessors, it has left no hint that it wants to globetrot.

[garyshell]

If you want to end the US vs THEM stuff then the first step is to accept facts and not act as propoganda spokesmen. We can start by not making up numbers. Power is more then 4 seconds behind last year not 2-3. The slowest CC's were faster then IRL pole.

First, since I was the one calling for an end to the us vs. them arguments I assume this was directed to me. My suggestion was directed at one of the ICS stalwarts, and I made no mention of any numbers. So, I fail to see how I am acting as a "propaganda spokesman". You seem to be mixing some comments from different folks in your admonishment to me.


FYI Atlantic was around 4.5 second slower then IRL pole at Edmonton. Realistically, the IRL as a series is halfway inbetween the speeds of Atlantic and CCWS, not equal to CC. If you really want to accept that and use rationalizations about how it doesnt matter or that the IRL is oval focused, I guess that is a matter of opinion. but that is kind of weak since this is racing

Yes it is racing, but not drag racing mind you, where top speed is the all important number. To me, and I dare say a lot of other folks, the relative speed between the participants in a given race or series is a hell of a lot more important than the relative speed between two different series. I do not give a damn if the IRL car is four seconds slower than a Champ Cat, just like I didn't give a damn if an Champ Car was 4 seconds slower than an F1 car back when I never watched the IRL.


I'm at a loss on motivations of those of you who would hope the new race series dies, don't want to see the most powerful and modern open wheel car in north america run anymore, argue which cars are faster in racing doesnt matter, and fail simple tasks of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch and claim those who attend a racing event would never be able to tell the difference. Just what kind of racing fans are you?

Well then let me explain some of those motivations. No one, I repeat no one, is calling for this new series to die. What IS being called for is a hope that when the details of this series emerge, it is clear that it is not trying to shoe horn its way into the same marketing space as the ICS. You DO realize that racing is a business don't you? And that the last twelve years have throughly disproved the theory that good old "King George" had that two series could fill that single marketing space. I am not happy that he was the eventual winner given this flawed theory. But I am sure as hell not going to be happy with someone else trying to prove the theory all over again.

As for your "simple task of measuring who is faster on a stopwatch", I challenge YOU to measure who is faster without your damn stop watch. THAT is what is important. How many folks do you see at the track or sitting at home on their couch timing the cars with a stop watch? You do it. I do it. But how many others do it? And if you can't make that measurement without your stopwatch, then guess what, it doesn't matter. Because only a very very minuscule number of folks track side will ever notice the difference. And to suggest in some way that this makes those fans less of a race fan, puts the question in your lap, what kind of race fan are YOU??? The kind of fans WE are are ones who notice the difference in speed between the cars in front of us on the track on that day. Because that is all that REALLY matters to someone who wants to see folks race against each other on the track. WE want to see Dario and Graham duke it on going into a corner. We want to see Helio and Tony dice for position as they play a high stakes game of chicken seeing who can brake latter at the end of a high speed straight. The only "fans" who worry about the speed between Champ Car and F1 are stat geeks. Just what kind of fans are those?

Gary

[garyshell]

Skepticism is fine. I have no idea what will happen either. There is more then skepticism here. There is the vibe that anything that might possibly compete with the IRL is bad.



An established buisness needs to continually defend itself against competitors. That is totally different then having one organization split apart into a damaging civil war. If you (or Tony George!) are basing the success of the IRL on the idea that there is a monopoly of only 1 series then clearly you have failed to yet escape from the damaging mindset of the split. Scorched earth for anything that is not under the control of Indianapolis!


Another series that wants to try to compete with the IRL is bad. Let's be clear about that. The past twelve years proved, definitively that two series cannot survive in a single market space. There are simply not enough sponsors, venues, drivers, TV networks or fans.

Let's also get some historical facts straight. The IRL was not born of one organization splitting apart, as your statement above implies. It was born of a brand new series (the IRL), as I said before, "shoe horning" its way into the existing market space of another series (Champ Car). Again, I am not happy that the eventual winner of that war was the series that barged in. But it did win. And you seem to suggest that we should welcome with open arms another battle for the market. That is asking us to ignore what transpired over the past twelve years. Some of us learned from that mistake. Clearly other have not.

Gary

[garyshell]

Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.


Again, you have CCWS management to blame for that, not TG.


#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.


Well, yes and no. You're lucky the IRL agreed to take it on this year to get the "merger" done. If it doesn't fit in the IRL's schedule from here on out it can hardly be called the IRL's fault. They agree to run a race there this year, and to negotiate future contracts. That's it.

I never said it was the IRL's fault. I was correcting your saying that it was CCWS fault. If it doen't fit in the schedule any more that it that is the fault of the ICS and the Surfer's Paradise principles. That has, zero, zilch, nada, to do with the CCWS management.

Gary

[-Helix-]

Wow you guys are infuriating. So the same crowd that wants to maximize the number of races they get to see in the US and cares little for keeping Surfers has no problem telling others to go take a hike all over the globe. hypocrytes

Uh. WE'RE the hypocrites? You just kinda proved that you CCers are. You want the IRL to race halfway around the world and focus on international markets yet you can't support a series that isn't American based?

You're the ones that love European style racing, so doesn't it seem logical to "take a hike"? Us AOWR fans already have a series with a formula that has proven to be the preferred style of Americans.

[CCWS77]

Another series that wants to try to compete with the IRL is bad. Let's be clear about that. The past twelve years proved, definitively that two series cannot survive in a single market space.
Gary

maybe


Uh. WE'RE the hypocrites? You just kinda proved that you CCers are. You want the IRL to race halfway around the world and focus on international markets yet you can't support a series that isn't American based?

You're the ones that love European style racing, so doesn't it seem logical to "take a hike"? Us AOWR fans already have a series with a formula that has proven to be the preferred style of Americans.
Your insistence that certain types of Indycentric racing are "American" and other types are "European" and should be banished is part of the basis of the whole damn 12 year war. By excising all elements of the European style from the IRL (such as surfers), you make it MORE LIKELY that another series will be invented to fill that gap, not less. Futhermore you seemed to have missed the fact that NASCAR exists. THAT is the essence of the fundamentally American style racing to which you prefer - NOT INDYCAR. I question the sanity of the idea of duplicating that but just with a different style of car.

It seems to me the split continues until this point is resolved, even among everyone who is in ICS fan. You may be arguing with me, but clearly there is vast difference of opinion even between Garyshell and Helix there. Even ICS seems undecided on the point since at times they concede to morphing into CART II and other times they retreat to thier midwest oval centric ideas like in this case viewing Surfers as expendable and not part of the core of what ICS is. Just becase there is 1 series does not mean these problems are solved. The insistence they should be swept under the rug and mean nothing is truely maddening. Imagine the split never existed and all those years are erased. I would still be arguing the exact same thing, that ICS should be distancing itself from the NASCAR style and should better fill that "european" style in north America or else you risk those european series crossing the sea and stealing your market share anyway when you leave an obvious gap like that.

[indycool]

Those European series have their own schedules where they are. Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

Your explanation of what the IRL seems to be doing seems critical of it, as if you don't like it, but accurate and I don't think the IRL has ever said any differently: It's an ovalcentric series which has added some road and street courses centered around the Indianapolis 500 and run primarily in North America. When all those European series start running ovals, let us know.

[garyshell]

maybe


Your insistence that certain types of Indycentric racing are "American" and other types are "European" and should be banished is part of the basis of the whole damn 12 year war. By excising all elements of the European style from the IRL (such as surfers), you make it MORE LIKELY that another series will be invented to fill that gap, not less. Futhermore you seemed to have missed the fact that NASCAR exists. THAT is the essence of the fundamentally American style racing to which you prefer - NOT INDYCAR. I question the sanity of the idea of duplicating that but just with a different style of car.

It seems to me the split continues until this point is resolved, even among everyone who is in ICS fan. You may be arguing with me, but clearly there is vast difference of opinion even between Garyshell and Helix there. Even ICS seems undecided on the point since at times they concede to morphing into CART II and other times they retreat to thier midwest oval centric ideas like in this case viewing Surfers as expendable and not part of the core of what ICS is. Just becase there is 1 series does not mean these problems are solved. The insistence they should be swept under the rug and mean nothing is truely maddening. Imagine the split never existed and all those years are erased. I would still be arguing the exact same thing, that ICS should be distancing itself from the NASCAR style and should better fill that "european" style in north America or else you risk those european series crossing the sea and stealing your market share anyway when you leave an obvious gap like that.


Maybe? You must be kidding... maybe??? So you think the solution to the problems, and yes there are problems, is to start another series? Oh, yes that is going to fix things, just like it did when the idiot grandson had the supreme vision and started a new series back in 1996.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

[downtowndeco]

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

[Rex Monaco]

Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

Because fans on both coasts of the US would rather have visited Montreal than Indianapolis to see a North American F1 race, and they did.

Let F1 run Long Beach in 2010 and then compare their attendence numbers with the ICS 2009. (Oh wait, then you would spin that as evidence that the ICS shouldn't be on street courses. LOL)

And if you are going to use Indianaplois as your gauge for the popularity of American style racing, then NASCAR draws a larger crowd than the Indy 500. So that must prove that the ICS should running fenders and carburators!

[garyshell]

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.


And don't pretend that your missives here aren't the equivalent of the Yankees gloating over the fact that they forced the Confederates to surrender.

Gary

[garyshell]

And if you are going to use Indianaplois as your gauge for the popularity of American style racing, then NASCAR draws a larger crowd than the Indy 500. So that must prove that the ICS should running fenders and carburators!


Are you SURE about that? As I recall, the indfield is not open for the NASCAR crowd, and if so I really doubt if they draw higher numbers.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war.

Except in this case, it was the confederate master that beat the union. And although these teams are now his slaves, someday those teams will rise up and fight that master. It's only a matter of time. When the series is healthy and making money, they will want more money and more control.

[Rex Monaco]

Are you SURE about that? As I recall, the indfield is not open for the NASCAR crowd, and if so I really doubt if they draw higher numbers.

Gary

You might be right, I was thinking TV ratings.

[Chris R]

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

and some will be thinking someone is out to get Tony George and the IRL.

There are extremist fans who will never let go of whatever side of the "split" they were on - but most of us understand it is over and it is time to move on. I understand where you are coming from but I think you are lumping far too many people into the extremist category....

[garyshell]

and some will be thinking someone is out to get Tony George and the IRL.

There are extremist fans who will never let go of whatever side of the "split" they were on - but most of us understand it is over and it is time to move on. I understand where you are coming from but I think you are lumping far too many people into the extremist category....


And downtowndeco fails to recognize that his replies here consistently put him in the other extremist category.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

And don't pretend that your missives here aren't the equivalent of the Yankees gloating over the fact that they forced the Confederates to surrender.

Gary

GMA break. Some of these guys come in here trying to do nothing other than poking the snake with a stick & we're not suppossed to respond or comment?

You've most certainly have not looked the other way or let things go when you've disagreed with anything I've posted. Every time I've got to hear about it. You should follow your own advise and allow others to have an opinion. Oh, I forgot. As long as it's "TG is an idiot grandson" it's OK, right?

[garyshell]

GMA break. Some of these guys come in here trying to do nothing other than poking the snake with a stick & we're not suppossed to respond or comment?

You've most certainly have not looked the other way or let things go when you've disagreed with anything I've posted. Every time I've got to hear about it. You should follow your own advise and allow others to have an opinion. Of that's right, as long as it's "TG is an idiot grandson" it's OK, right?


Did I say you shouldn't respond? No. I said don't pretend that your attitude here is absolutely no different from those you denigrate. You are just on the opposite side. You do your fair share (or I dare say more than fair share) of prodding that snake at every opportunity.

Yes I called him an idiot grandson, I thought that in 1996 and think so today. But, if you look at my replies in threads here you will see I am just as critical of the CCF crowd.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

Garyshell states that the NASCAR race closes the infield. How did the F1 seating differ from the Indy 500 configuration?

I remember that F1 was sold out the first couple of years at Indy and I beleive that NASCAR still sells out too. When is the last time the Indy 500 officially (or truthfully) sold out?

[indycool]

Rex, the NASCAR race at Indianapolis has no GA tickets in the infield. The Indianapolis 500 does. The Indianapolis 500 has ALWAYS had a higher attendance than the Brickyard 400 and that is ONE of the reasons. The place has about 260-270,000 seats for those races.

For the F1 race, MOST of the seats were used, but T3 oval and well into the north short chute were blocked off because it was nowhere near the course and didn't apply. Temporary seating was built at the esses in the infield. The race drew an estimated 100-125,000 after a bigger gush (150,000 or so) the first year. Ticket prices were pretty much the same as the other two races, with some seats better for the road course and some not as good and prices showing those. At the attendance estimated, the Speedway was STILL among the top three in F1 attendance every year.

As is the case with many Sprint Cup races these days with the big TV contract, a look at the Brickyard 400 crowd the past few years would NOT indicate a sellout for some time.

[Miatanut]

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

QFT! :up:

[pits4me]

I didn't like to see the Trans Am go away and I would not like to see the Atlantics diminished or go away. Surfers is thousands of miles away on a channel I don't get, they apparently want to focus on this as a North American series and I have no idea of the financial feasibility of the deal.

C'mon, Trans-AM was an entirely different situation. Like Roger Elliott's North American Super Touring Car Championship in 95-96, it eventually succommed to NASCAR'S wish to dominate stock car/saloon car racing in the US. Leveraging corporate sponsors and factory participation.

Atlantic's on the other hand has survived as the premier development racing series in North America. It now sits as the top rung of the Mazda ladder.

The Surfers TV coverage this weekend just demonstrates the lack of respect ICS gives it as an international motorsport event. These types of events are critical to the global branding of IndyCar and the sponsors it supposedly relies on for survival revenue. Even the current champion is from Australasia. Go figure.....

[downtowndeco]

I don't think Surfers is nearly as important to a series as you think it is. It couldn't save CART or CCWS, nor could races in Mexico, Holland, Germany or Canada.

The IRL is a US based series and will best served to focus on races here.


C'mon, Trans-AM was an entirely different situation. Like Roger Elliott's North American Super Touring Car Championship in 95-96, it eventually succommed to NASCAR'S wish to dominate stock car/saloon car racing in the US. Leveraging corporate sponsors and factory participation.

Atlantic's on the other hand has survived as the premier development racing series in North America. It now sits as the top rung of the Mazda ladder.

The Surfers TV coverage this weekend just demonstrates the lack of respect ICS gives it as an international motorsport event. These types of events are critical to the global branding of IndyCar and the sponsors it supposedly relies on for survival revenue. Even the current champion is from Australasia. Go figure.....

[Miatanut]

...Like Roger Elliott's North American Super Touring Car Championship in 95-96...

The best racing I ever saw anywhere. Period. :(

[Miatanut]

You mean all 8 cars? Oops, forgot, I think they started 12 once.

Yes, and I used to rip on CCWS about 16 cars, but NATCC was flat-out racing all the way! Smoke coming off the tires in the braking zones. Even though they were FWD, they would move around in the turns because they were cornering at the limit, trying to maintain momentum.

Great stuff!

[Rex Monaco]

At the attendance estimated, the Speedway was STILL among the top three in F1 attendance every year.

And yet you used it's attendence numbers as your example of how Americans don't except 'European style' racing.

[downtowndeco]

American aren't what filled the grandstands. Much of the crowd were international visitors.


And yet you used it's attendence numbers as your example of how Americans don't except 'European style' racing.

[ShiftingGears]

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

Damn right!

[Rex Monaco]

American aren't what filled the grandstands. Much of the crowd were international visitors.

Well since the Indianapolis tourism dollars were higher for F1 than either the Indy 500 or BY400, we know they weren't Hoosiers.

But I'm not certain they were all rich foriegners flocking to the midwest to partake of Americana.

But if large percentage of them were Canadian, then you got your justification for holding Indycar events in Canada.

[downtowndeco]

I never said they were all from outside the U.S. But a lot of them were.

Whether they were Canadian or not I don't know.


Well since the Indianapolis tourism dollars were higher for F1 than either the Indy 500 or BY400, we know they weren't Hoosiers.

But I'm not certain they were all rich foriegners flocking to the midwest to partake of Americana.

But if large percentage of them were Canadian, then you got your justification for holding Indycar events in Canada.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

American aren't what filled the grandstands. Much of the crowd were international visitors.

Also, some American CART/CC fan did NOT attend because they chose not to give TG any money. I would have been to all the GP's but for that reason.

[Lee Roy]

I attended all but the last Formula One races at Indy (and I live on the east coast). There were a lot of international visitors at those races. There were also a lot of US citizens like myself there. That is, I had no problem traveling all the way to IMS to see F1, but I wouldn't bother to cross 16th Street to see an Indy 500, and I'm not particularly interested in traveling all the way to Indy for the B/Y 400 when there are better NASCAR races much closer to home.

And I am totally ambivalent about Tony George. He's never done anything to me.

[indycool]

Rex, I imagine the F1 crowd spent more per capita in tourism dollars but I don't know that it exceeded either the Brickyard 400 or Indianapolis 500. An economic impact study a few years ago showed the "500" and "400" ahead of the F1 race, which was fifth, with the Super Bowl and Daytona 500 also in the top five.

Yes, I used that number in respect to F1 attendance. F1 events don't come close to the Indianapolis 500 or Brickyard 400 in attendance.

[pits4me]

I don't think Surfers is nearly as important to a series as you think it is.

Its not my opinion. The global business community thinks very highly of the Surfers race. You'll be surprised by the response you get from some of the team owners who were there last week.

Then there's the fans that follow many professional race drivers from that geographic area. If overseas TV is an important revenue component to a series then its good business practice to race in that vicinity.

Why does the ICS race in Japan?

[indycool]

The ICS races in Japan obviously because of its relationship with Honda. Secondarily (and I can't remember where I read this), outside of the U.S., there are more hits on the Speedway website from Japan than any other country.

Yes, I'd be very surprised if the business-oriented owners who lose money by going to Surfers might like the race, but can't afford the tab.

And for AMERICAN sponsors which are not factors of consequence in the "global business community," it's a throwaway.

[IMSA]

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

Do you really think that "GreenPrix" will compete with the IndyCar Series????

Do you know Ben Johnston??? His background in racing (should not take long to find out -very little). Business background?? (other than is own PR BS?)

This guy has NO experience in forming, running a race series. He DOES NOT have the $$$ to run a series. The best you will see is an "Executive Drive" type deal, not a professional race series.

I hate to see the Atlantic Series go away, but it will. Paul G. has a ton more money that Johnston ever thought about having.

TA will go the same way Trans-Am went --down the drain.

[CCWS77]

Maybe? You must be kidding... maybe??? So you think the solution to the problems, and yes there are problems, is to start another series? Oh, yes that is going to fix things, just like it did when the idiot grandson had the supreme vision and started a new series back in 1996.

Gary

The ICS was started using a core component from CART - the Indy 500 - by someone who was a CART insider, with the specific intention of destroying CART. Thus it was a civil war. That was what was so damaging. The idea that because the civil war was won this grants immunity to all future challenges is a head in the sand attitute.

A brand new series from scratch is not the same at all. If the ICS is operating well and with all its core components and players intact, then there is no reason to break a sweat at all when some newcomer comes along. If the ICS is hemoraging away important components that others are collecting (such as the Surfers or other races, a fleet modern racecars, support series), well don't blame the ones who aquire them and save them from death. They weren't stolen from under the IRL's feat like happend in 1995. We have people right in this thread advocating the IRL to discard some of these components of itself - but then shocked, somehow absurdly are shocked, that someone else might come along and build something with those components

[garyshell]

The ICS was started using a core component from CART - the Indy 500 - by someone who was a CART insider, with the specific intention of destroying CART. Thus it was a civil war. That was what was so damaging. The idea that because the civil war was won this grants immunity to all future challenges is a head in the sand attitute.

No one suggested granting immunity. I said it was a stupid idea to start another series based on the discarded components of the war between CCWS and IRL. Explain to me how using "discarded" components is "a brand new series from scratch". By using these components it is positioning itself in direct competition for the same viewers, teams, drivers, fans and most important... sponsors. We tried that for twelve years, it didn't work. Why is there a new found hope that it will miraculously work now? Tell me who's head is in the sand, with that brainstorm.

Gary

[Easy Drifter]

If the series gets even off the ground it will not threaten anyone. It is to be, as I understand, it arrive and drive with all the cars looked after by the organizer. You will rent a ride race by race and will not have your own shop or crew but those supplied by the organizer.
In other words basically rent a drive rich racers. I highly doubt if any real pros will take part.
Who the heck is going to want to watch Richie Rich the 17th race? If he was any good he would be in one of the other pro series.

[Miatanut]

If the series gets even off the ground it will not threaten anyone. It is to be, as I understand, it arrive and drive with all the cars looked after by the organizer. You will rent a ride race by race and will not have your own shop or crew but those supplied by the organizer.
In other words basically rent a drive rich racers. I highly doubt if any real pros will take part.
Who the heck is going to want to watch Richie Rich the 17th race? If he was any good he would be in one of the other pro series.

Exactly!

It is simply a new vintage racing series, with the distinction that, rather than having a half dozen or so arrive and drive outfits providing the majority of the cars taking part, there is just one providing all the car. But, because the cars are former CCWS cars, some people get their knickers all up in a knot over it. There is zero overlap with the IRL.

Zero.

[speeddurango]

Seeing the current situation of Indycar and their ***** cars, I would be greatly interested in another open wheel series, business wise it may sound stupid to some people, but I'm a motorsport fan and at the very least, there's 2 more years before Indycar has a new chassis, so there's at least something proper to watch.

[garyshell]

Seeing the current situation of Indycar and their ***** cars, I would be greatly interested in another open wheel series, business wise it may sound stupid to some people, but I'm a motorsport fan and at the very least, there's 2 more years before Indycar has a new chassis, so there's at least something proper to watch.

At what price? Didn't we learn ANYTHING from the past twelve years? It was a really stupid idea when the IRL was formed, and it would be an equally stupid idea for another open wheel series to be formed to chase the same fans, venues, driver and sponsors.

Gary

[indycool]

PROPER to watch? Sheesh.

[Miatanut]

At what price? Didn't we learn ANYTHING from the past twelve years? It was a really stupid idea when the IRL was formed, and it would be an equally stupid idea for another open wheel series to be formed to chase the same fans, venues, driver and sponsors.

Gary

You're not getting this.

They would NOT be chasing after the same fans. It's an arrive and drive vintage racing series. It will appeal to people, like myself, who enjoy vintage racing. It will also appeal to people, like myself, who were CART fans, and when that was gone we were fans of the next closest thing, until that became a shadow of its former self and there wasn't another interesting product out there. These people, like myself, see no appeal in the current technical specifications or management of the IRL, so we will never become IRL fans. Never. The latest news is that they have decided the high-downforce formula is the way to go, including on ovals. In other words, if there was any hope of something decent around the corner, that hope has now been dashed.

Along comes somebody who wants to run an arrive and drive vintage series with some appealing equipment. As with other vintage racing, most of the tab will be paid by the competitors. Like most vintage races, they will take out an insurance policy so they can have spectators, they will charge for tickets to help defray their costs, and the spectators can watch some rich guys having fun with their expensive (and nice sounding) toys and remember the good old days when we saw these cars racing when they were new.

Everybody wins.

[garyshell]

You're not getting this.

They would NOT be chasing after the same fans. It's an arrive and drive vintage racing series. It will appeal to people, like myself, who enjoy vintage racing. It will also appeal to people, like myself, who were CART fans, and when that was gone we were fans of the next closest thing, until that became a shadow of its former self and there wasn't another interesting product out there. These people, like myself, see no appeal in the current technical specifications or management of the IRL, so we will never become IRL fans. Never. The latest news is that they have decided the high-downforce formula is the way to go, including on ovals. In other words, if there was any hope of something decent around the corner, that hope has now been dashed.

Along comes somebody who wants to run an arrive and drive vintage series with some appealing equipment. As with other vintage racing, most of the tab will be paid by the competitors. Like most vintage races, they will take out an insurance policy so they can have spectators, they will charge for tickets to help defray their costs, and the spectators can watch some rich guys having fun with their expensive (and nice sounding) toys and remember the good old days when we saw these cars racing when they were new.

Everybody wins.

Oh I get it all right. At first blush I thought it was exactly as you laid it out. And in that context I thought (and still think) it was a good idea. I am a HUGE fan of vintage racing. It is one of my favorite forms of racing. But then I heard noises about the new series saying they would be happy to run at Surfer's Paradise if the IRL decided not to run, and then my skeptic radar started going off, and I smelled a rat.

I fully admit I might be wrong, it is much to early for EITHER of us to sum up the intentions of the series. But I am pretty sure there are those, unlike you, who see this as the second coming of CART. Or at the very least hope it to be such. (I sense a hint of that hope in your first paragraph, but take you at your word that you see this as a vintage series.)

If it turns out this is no more than an arrive and drive, rich boy hobbyist series in the vein of the other vintage series around the country, then hats off to 'em and sign me up for tickets. If, on the other hand, this is a back door attempt to reconstitute another civil war, include me out. Because if it IS a back door, then they will be fighting for the same sponsors, venues, drivers and teams. Only time will tell.

Gary

[indycool]

What Gary said.

They have announced they're going to run. Bill Tempero did that with the AIS years ago and they ran for several years with absolutely no impact on the series that fielded Indy cars, regardless of who sanctioned what at the time. They deliberately did NOT compete and I don't think the ALMS is, either. They're different marketing and business plans and kinds of races, just like NASCAR is. IMO, the Green Prix can do what it has to do, draw those who have an interest and go their own way without anyone getting their panties in a wad. It will not be a threat to anything else out there and there is not a fourth Civil War in the making.

[Miatanut]

(I sense a hint of that hope in your first paragraph, but take you at your word that you see this as a vintage series.)

Gary

You're seeing something that ain't there.

My hope was that GF and KK would remodel the Atlantics with turbos and less downforce so it could go back to being one step away from F1, like it was in the '70's. An open wheel road racing series for young hotshoes trying to make it to the big time. With this guy now in control, I see zero chance of that happening and I wonder if Atlantic will even be around five years from now.

If somebody wanted to create a new series to compete against Tony's, first step is they would need to find some Sheikh with about a half a billion dollars to blow on it, and even then, the last couple of those haven't exactly set the world on fire.

This is an arrive and drive vintage racing series with the high-downforce cars we've known the last few years. I personally prefer the vintage races with the old, no downforce, bias ply-tired cars of my childhood, although I do enjoy the F-5000's. They have so much torque that even though they have some downforce, they're all over the place.

I do hope that at some point, somebody remodels and existing series or starts a new series for low-downforce, high power, cost-effective, open wheel road racing. I don't think it would take long to take off.

[garyshell]

You're seeing something that ain't there. Like I said, I do take your word for that.


My hope was that GF and KK would remodel the Atlantics with turbos and less downforce so it could go back to being one step away from F1, like it was in the '70's. An open wheel road racing series for young hotshoes trying to make it to the big time. With this guy now in control, I see zero chance of that happening and I wonder if Atlantic will even be around five years from now.

If somebody wanted to create a new series to compete against Tony's, first step is they would need to find some Sheikh with about a half a billion dollars to blow on it, and even then, the last couple of those haven't exactly set the world on fire.

I too, wanted to see a low downforce, high torque, tails out series for Atlantics.


This is an arrive and drive vintage racing series with the high-downforce cars we've known the last few years. I personally prefer the vintage races with the old, no downforce, bias ply-tired cars of my childhood, although I do enjoy the F-5000's. They have so much torque that even though they have some downforce, they're all over the place.

Can I get an AMEN! I love those beasts and the old Can-AM stuff. About 15 years ago I went to an incredible Can-AM reunion at Watkins Glen. I got to meet Denny Hulme and tip a few with Brian Redmond.


I do hope that at some point, somebody remodels and existing series or starts a new series for low-downforce, high power, cost-effective, open wheel road racing. I don't think it would take long to take off.

Again I gotta say AMEN. As I am sure you remember, this is NOT the first time you and I have been on the same side of the low downforce, high-power, make the drivers work for it, style of racing discussion!

Cheers!

Gary

[CCWS77]

Atlantic, Star Mazda, Indy Lights all specifically copy what Indycar (or ChampCar) were doing. There was no chance under the previous owners that any of these series were going to start with a radical new formula. That becomes more likely with a new owner not affiliated with the IRL, not less. The IRL has already said the new car will be high downforce. If you dream of a low downforce high power series then start praying to Ben Johnston.

[garyshell]

Atlantic, Star Mazda, Indy Lights all specifically copy what Indycar (or ChampCar) were doing. There was no chance under the previous owners that any of these series were going to start with a radical new formula. That becomes more likely with a new owner not affiliated with the IRL, not less. The IRL has already said the new car will be high downforce. If you dream of a low downforce high power series then start praying to Ben Johnston.

Pray for him to once again fragment AOWR into two camps at a time when the economy is already causing serious issues. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pray he fails, if that is his plan. I'd love to see a low downforce high power series but not at the expense of the distinct possibility of it destroying AOWR in the process.

Gary

[garyshell]

Official terms

1. Number of bets: Only available to one other forum member, first come first served.
2. Amount of wager: One 6 pack of premium beer of the winners choosing, with a $10 cap on price.
3. Delivery of winners "prize": Payable by a check, to avoid sending beer through the mail. Too messy!
4. Text of bet: The Greenprix series will not exist as a viable series (actually holding sanctioned races) one year from today. Oct. 20, 2008.


Gary


I'll take the bet Gary..... not becuase i believe in the series....but because I'm a gambler and i think the guy has dough to keep it afloat for at the very min two seasons


Ding... dong... :D

I wonder what happened to all the cars he bought?

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ding... dong... :D

I wonder what happened to all the cars he bought?

Gary


Gary... your slow man

ive referenced this a couple times in the last few months...

[garyshell]

Gary... your slow man

ive referenced this a couple times in the last few months...


Not slow, just patient. Look at item #4 in the quoted text, then look at the calendar.

Gary

[SarahFan]

I know what it says gary.... this aint rocket science man....

just pass along an address and i'll send off a six pack

[garyshell]

I know what it says gary.... this aint rocket science man....

just pass along an address and i'll send off a six pack


Well, we need to deduct the price of a good rootbeer...

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=680046&highlight=rootbeer#post680046

Gary

[SarahFan]

Well, we need to deduct the price of a good rootbeer...

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=680046&highlight=rootbeer#post680046

Gary


the rootbeer is all good..... I'll wait to collect that in person someday.... bound to happen

[garyshell]

So Ken, or anyone else, did you hear what became of this guy and/or all the chassis he bought? I know he was thwarted at the last minute in his attempt to buy engines. But that was the last I heard of this story.

Gary

[garyshell]

the rootbeer is all good..... I'll wait to collect that in person someday.... bound to happen


And I'll do the same with the beer bet. But we will have to meet somewhere off track as the likelihood of finding a GOOD beer :beer :o r rootbeer :beer :( a clear stipulation in both bets) at any track falls somewhere betwixt slim and none.



Gary

:beer:

[SarahFan]

So Ken, or anyone else, did you hear what became of this guy and/or all the chassis he bought? I know he was thwarted at the last minute in his attempt to buy engines. But that was the last I heard of this story.

Gary

no clue.... I've been way too focused on the TV ratings to pay attention to anything else...

BTW who won the championship?

[garyshell]

no clue.... I've been way too focused on the TV ratings to pay attention to anything else...

BTW who won the championship?

Damn it man, warn me when you are going to go into Henny Youngman mode, so I can put down the can of diet coke BEFORE I read these... ok? For those of you under 40 (or should that be 50?) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Youngman)

Now, I gotta go find that can of screen wipes. Jeesh... :s mokin:

Gary

[nanders]

You guys drug me back from the dead.

[garyshell]

You guys drug me back from the dead.

It's alive! It's ahhlive!! It's ahhhhhlive!!! :vader:

Gary