Questionable Non-Penalties?

“In the next driver meeting, Jarno Trulli will ask [Hamilton] why he blocked him for two laps when he was a lap down,” added Toyota's Timo Glock – who also found himself on the receiving end of the McLaren-Mercedes star's aggression in the Italian Grand Prix at Monza last month – in an interview with German broadcaster RTL. “Jarno lost one-and-a-half to two seconds, because Hamilton would not obey the blue flags.”

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/170552-0/f1_rivals_round_on_under-fire_hamilton.html

Please, those who believe the FIA are out to get Hamilton & Mclaren, why no punishment?

[ioan]

:) ;)

[yodasarmpit]

Well if Hamilton failed to yield to, 3 I think it is, blue flags then he should have been penalised.

[Dave B]

As I posted on t'other thread, there are two possibilities:

1) It never happenned. Glock seems to be the only one complaining, neither Trulli nor Toyota mentioned it at all in their post-race comments, and nobody else noticed it at the time. Do you honestly think there wouldn't have been a ten-page thread about it by now if anybody here saw it on Sunday?

2) It did happen, and by failing to even investigate it the stewards are even more hopeless and incompetent than any of us dared to imagine. If Hamilton ignored blue flags for two whole laps then not one of his fans will defend those actions.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well if Hamilton failed to yield to, 3 I think it is, blue flags then he should have been penalised.
:up:


Trulli is upset about the way Hamilton behaved when the Italian tried to lap him during the Fuji race - claiming he lost valuable seconds that cost him the chance of beating Nelson Piquet's Renault for fourth place.
"I am definitely unhappy," Trulli told autosport.com about his views on Hamilton's driving in Japan. "I was leading the race, he was lapped and for two laps he held me up. This cost me 1.5 seconds, which if we are going to put it back on my second pitstop could have given me the chance to stay ahead of Renault after the stop.
"I am not saying I would have finished in front, but sometimes thing like this can change a lot. Lewis did not even watch the mirrors because he came back on the track right in front of me and he held me up for two laps. And probably he should have paid more attention because he was more or less out of the race. He was dead last and I don't understand why."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71441


2) It did happen, and by failing to even investigate it the stewards are even more hopeless and incompetent than any of us dared to imagine. If Hamilton ignored blue flags for two whole laps then not one of his fans will defend those actions.
:up:

From Jarno's comments it would seem that he felt he was held up, but he makes no mention of blue flags being ignored so presumably they were not being shown to Hamilton.

[woody2goody]

:up:


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71441


:up:

From Jarno's comments it would seem that he felt he was held up, but he makes no mention of blue flags being ignored so presumably they were not being shown to Hamilton.

That could be the only explanation, because otherwise I think a penalty should have been dished out. Having said that, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that maybe he wasn't penalised because he was right at the back.

If he did block the Toyota he potentially cost Trulli a point or two. He could potentially have got 3rd. He probably wouldn't have, but if I remember he came out of his stop quite close behind other cars, which depending on being blocked or not, he may have remained in front of.

[MrJan]

I thought the rule was 5 flags but to be honest it's inexcusable if it went on for 2 laps and flags were waved.

How far behind Lewis was Jarno? Sometimes the marshalls think that the driver is not being held up, especially as McLaren is a top team, although you'd have thought that Toyota would get more help at Fuji :D

[ArrowsFA1]

That could be the only explanation, because otherwise I think a penalty should have been dished out. Having said that, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that maybe he wasn't penalised because he was right at the back.
If that's the case then, as Dave said, the stewards are even more hopeless and incompetent than any of us dared to imagine.

I thought the rule was 5 flags but to be honestft it's inexcusable if it went on for 2 laps and flags were waved.
Inexcusable and incredible. Blue flags are one of the most obvious warnings a driver will get, and don't the drivers get a light in the cockpit now as well? The team would certainly be aware if blue flags were being shown to their driver, and you can bet McLaren would have told Hamilton to pull over to the side of the circuit, stop the car, get out and wave a cheery wave at Jarno to wish him well as he went by so as to avoid yet another FIA penalty :laugh:

[ShiftingGears]

There is no conspiracy, the stewards were just awful.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71436

[Ranger]

Yep. No blue flags = no applicable penalty.

[Marshall]

There is no conspiracy, the stewards were just awful.


BINGO!

[ioan]

Maybe they just thought that one penalty was enough for Hamy boy for one race. Funny eh?
As funny as how people are making up excuses like maybe he wasn't shown any blue flags and other things like that. :rotflmao:

[ArrowsFA1]

Maybe they just thought that one penalty was enough for Hamy boy for one race. Funny eh?
As funny as how people are making up excuses like maybe he wasn't shown any blue flags and other things like that. :rotflmao:
Well perhaps the FIA will find those blue flags. Perhaps they're just waiting until Saturday evening to announce they've decided to penalise Hamilton again by putting him to the back of the grid for Sunday's race :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

The drivers don't just get blue flags: they get a blue warning light in the cockpit, instances of which are logged.

So if there's an accusation that Hamilton ignored blue flags for two whole laps it'll be easy enough to prove.

As I've said before, if Lewis did ignore blue flags then I won't defend him. What I won't do, however, is take Glock's word for it when nobody else watching the race noticed. That's not a slur on Glock's integrity, I would just like some evidence that this acually happenned.

I'll watch the race again later and see if I can spot these mystical flags, shouldn't be hard to spot if they were waving for two whole laps.

[Dave B]

Sadly it's impossible to tell from the TV coverage: all we see is Trulli passing Hamilton, not the lap or two before.

So I still await some evidence that Lewis ignored blue flags.

[Knock-on]

“In the next driver meeting, Jarno Trulli will ask [Hamilton] why he blocked him for two laps when he was a lap down,” added Toyota's Timo Glock – who also found himself on the receiving end of the McLaren-Mercedes star's aggression in the Italian Grand Prix at Monza last month – in an interview with German broadcaster RTL. “Jarno lost one-and-a-half to two seconds, because Hamilton would not obey the blue flags.”

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/170552-0/f1_rivals_round_on_under-fire_hamilton.html

Please, those who believe the FIA are out to get Hamilton & Mclaren, why no punishment?

Can you tell me what laps they were on?

[Knock-on]

Sadly it's impossible to tell from the TV coverage: all we see is Trulli passing Hamilton, not the lap or two before.

So I still await some evidence that Lewis ignored blue flags.

It's OK Dave, I've just had a butchers and it's horsecrap :D

The only time during the race was laps 19 to 21.

On lap 19, Trulli was still a few seconds behind.

Lap 20, he closed but was still not sufficiently close by any stretch of the imagination. Lap time 120.3

Lap 21 he closes further but not sufficiently to be impeded. 120:1

Lap 22, he finally closes up on Lewis on the 2nd half of the Lap but I can't tell if he overtakes and pits or sits behind and pits.

I also can't tell about any blue flags.

What is obvious is he was only in a potential situation to overtake for a few corners.

Thanks to vision F1

[Dave B]

It's OK Dave, I've just had a butchers and it's horsecrap :D
Good research :up:

I notice that yet again it falls to us to do the legwork as once again an accusation is tossed around with no evidence. :uhoh:

[Knock-on]

Good research :up:

I notice that yet again it falls to us to do the legwork as once again an accusation is tossed around with no evidence. :uhoh:

It's not a problem.

They bowl 'em and I'll bash 'em for 6.

[MrJan]

Good research :up:

I notice that yet again it falls to us to do the legwork as once again an accusation is tossed around with no evidence. :uhoh:

But you can't say anything unless you have hard facts!!! :eek: Even if it's your opinion you still need to back it up to show that it is infact your own opinion :p :

[Knock-on]

But you can't say anything unless you have hard facts!!! :eek: Even if it's your opinion you still need to back it up to show that it is infact your own opinion :p :

:confused:

I posted the facts and provided a source that has been used on here quite a few times.

So, what is the opinion?

[Robinho]

if Hamilton ignored blue flags he rightly should have been punished.

however, i didn't notice any blue flags during the race, neither did the stewards, the race driector or apparently Toyota, as Trulli doesn't mention Blue flags, nor did Toyota complain to the stewards you'd assume, seeing as no investigatuion was brought forward.

the only coment about blue flags was Glock, who was unlikely to see them either seeing as he wasn't in Trulli's or Hamiltons car.

i'm sure Trulli lost a little time behind Hamilton, but if no flags were waved and no message was sent to tell him to move over why would he?

generally the burden of proof ought to be with the accuser, so those making the accusations please provide this proof, if it exists i will gladly condemn Hamilton for being an ignorant ass for ignoring the flags and the FIA for being too incompetent to mete out an easy penalty.

this isn't about other complaints, its not about moving in braking zones or late moves. each incident should be subject to its own investigation, and several on here have agreed Hamilton has done some pretty silly things this year, but perhaps not everything he's been accused of ids perhaps fair - seems to me to be a case of throw enough mud and some of it is sure to stick.

this event is a non-entity without some documentary evidence of blue flags, something that ought to be easily found (by the teams and the FIA, if not by anyone here) if it exists.

[MrJan]

:confused:

I posted the facts and provided a source that has been used on here quite a few times.

So, what is the opinion?

Not directed at you Mr On :) More a regular posting Ferrari fan who always requests facts but who I have never seen provide a link himself and asked for links when I said something was my own view :D

[Dave B]

As funny as how people are making up excuses like maybe he wasn't shown any blue flags and other things like that. :rotflmao:
Any evidence* yet to back up the allegations in this thread?

* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence

[Knock-on]

Not directed at you Mr On :) More a regular posting Ferrari fan who always requests facts but who I have never seen provide a link himself and asked for links when I said something was my own view :D

Sorry Mr Yeo. My bad!

[Knock-on]

Any evidence* yet to back up the allegations in this thread?

* http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence

I believe evidence can be made up of the 3 undisputable elements.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conjecture

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fantasy

Along with a pair of these.

http://img.radio.cz/pictures/zabava/ruzove_brylex.jpg

[ioan]

Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't have an IQ test for forum members or at least a ban for those that can't prove to be at least 10 years old?! :rolleyes:

[Knock-on]

Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't have an IQ test for forum members or at least a ban for those that can't prove to be at least 10 years old?! :rolleyes:

Come on, it was light hearted. No need for attacking peoples intelligence or age ;)

Really ioan, if you nail your flag to something that is unsubstantiated and is then proved to be false, you should really just fess up and accept you were mistaken.

[MrJan]

Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't have an IQ test for forum members or at least a ban for those that can't prove to be at least 10 years old?! :rolleyes:

Lead the way then, where's your proof to be over ten? Stop with the sarcastic comments and take a long look in the mirror.

I didn't see the race so haven't actually seen the incident but assume that the stewards have a reason for not issuing a penalty (they seem penalty happy at the minute so must be something valid behind it). The only thing I can think of is that blue flags/lights/movies weren't shown and Lewis didn't know he was being tailed. If there was a flag then he should have let Jarno pass, no doubt about it.

This is only my assumption but without a statement from the stewards we can really only go on what we assume to have happened. Afterall the people who think Lewis was out of order seem to only be going on the assumption that he was shown a flag but for some reason the FIA chose not to punish him. Two sides to the story, neither is the right one at the minute, only what we take from it :)

[yodasarmpit]

Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't have an IQ test for forum members or at least a ban for those that can't prove to be at least 10 years old?! :rolleyes:
If you actually take the time to read this thread you will see everyone agrees, that if Hamilton failed to yield to a set of blue flags he should have been penalised.

No one disputes that, however simply don't know if he was shown blue flags.

[Knock-on]

If you actually take the time to read this thread you will see everyone agrees, that if Hamilton failed to yield to a set of blue flags he should have been penalised.

No one disputes that, however simply don't know if he was shown blue flags.


From the information from the drivers briefing, it appers he wasn't shown any Blue flags.

From the data I posted, he wasn't held up for 2 laps but may have been for a few corners just before he pitted but as it appears no blue flag was shown, he did nothing wrong.

However, with the current Stewarding situation, I wouldn't be surprised.

[PSfan]

It's OK Dave, I've just had a butchers and it's horsecrap :D

The only time during the race was laps 19 to 21.

On lap 19, Trulli was still a few seconds behind.

Lap 20, he closed but was still not sufficiently close by any stretch of the imagination. Lap time 120.3

Lap 21 he closes further but not sufficiently to be impeded. 120:1

Lap 22, he finally closes up on Lewis on the 2nd half of the Lap but I can't tell if he overtakes and pits or sits behind and pits.

I also can't tell about any blue flags.

What is obvious is he was only in a potential situation to overtake for a few corners.

Thanks to vision F1

Please re-watch lap 2 for the that race to see why watching the dots is useless for this kind of argument... Hamilton was spun out and the whole field passed him before he could get moving, but on vision it takes almost the whole lap before the last car in the "main" group gets past Hamilton's dot, so in other words, IF Hamilton was holding up Trulli, you won't see it watching Vision...

[Knock-on]

Please re-watch lap 2 for the that race to see why watching the dots is useless for this kind of argument... Hamilton was spun out and the whole field passed him before he could get moving, but on vision it takes almost the whole lap before the last car in the "main" group gets past Hamilton's dot, so in other words, IF Hamilton was holding up Trulli, you won't see it watching Vision...

Sorry PS but you can see immediatly when he is hit by Massa and drops back.

I also suggest you check the laptimes for the Toyota. '20.3's, '20.1's and then pit on the next lap.

Or are we saying that Lewis held him up for 3 laps now now?

The onboard telementary is not really something you can argue with.

[Mickey T]

how about no penalty for team orders today for ferrari?

i know most teams would have done it (though BMW didn't), but it's still illegal.

[BeansBeansBeans]

how about no penalty for team orders today for ferrari?

i know most teams would have done it (though BMW didn't), but it's still illegal.

Although it was obvious to everyone, it can't really be proved.

It's a ludicrous piece of legislation anyway.

[gm99]

how about no penalty for team orders today for ferrari?

i know most teams would have done it (though BMW didn't), but it's still illegal.

Well, it wouldn't have made much sense for BMW today, as Kubica would have been out of contention for the WDC regardless of whether he finished fifth or sixth as long as Hamilton was ahead of him.

[PSfan]

Sorry PS but you can see immediatly when he is hit by Massa and drops back.

So I guess the incident between Massa and Hamilton happened at the first the start finish line, by watching Visionf1 Hamilton is passed by PK at the first corner, and by the time he gets to the S corners that the incident actually occurs, only Rosberg is left to pass Lewis...


I also suggest you check the laptimes for the Toyota. '20.3's, '20.1's and then pit on the next lap.


Lap 17 Trulli did a 1:19.6
Lap 18 He did a 1:19.5
Lap 19 He did 1 1:20.3
Lap 20 He did a 1:20.1
Lap 21 He pitted... But was still held up for most of that lap as well...

So guess who was in front of him on laps 19 -> 21...


[quote="Knock-on":6llaey10] Or are we saying that Lewis held him up for 3 laps now now?

The onboard telementary is not really something you can argue with. [/quote:6llaey10]

And neither are the lap times... but hear you are... arguing that Hamilton did not lose trulli some .6s a lap over those three laps where the stats clearly prove he did...

[Robinho]

So I guess the incident between Massa and Hamilton happened at the first the start finish line, by watching Visionf1 Hamilton is passed by PK at the first corner, and by the time he gets to the S corners that the incident actually occurs, only Rosberg is left to pass Lewis...


I also suggest you check the laptimes for the Toyota. '20.3's, '20.1's and then pit on the next lap.


Lap 17 Trulli did a 1:19.6
Lap 18 He did a 1:19.5
Lap 19 He did 1 1:20.3
Lap 20 He did a 1:20.1
Lap 21 He pitted... But was still held up for most of that lap as well...

So guess who was in front of him on laps 19 -> 21...




And neither are the lap times... but hear you are... arguing that Hamilton did not lose trulli some .6s a lap over those three laps where the stats clearly prove he did...

i don't think we are claiming that Trulli wasn't behind Hamilton, nor that Trulli was likely slower as a result, only that there was no reason for Hamilton to move over for the sake of it when no blue flags were shown

[yodasarmpit]

As Robinho says, absolutely no one here is disputing these facts, the only issue under contention is "was he shown a series of blue flags?"

[PSfan]

i don't think we are claiming that Trulli wasn't behind Hamilton, nor that Trulli was likely slower as a result, only that there was no reason for Hamilton to move over for the sake of it when no blue flags were shown

Please re-read knock-on's posts regarding this subject:


It's OK Dave, I've just had a butchers and it's horsecrap :D

The only time during the race was laps 19 to 21.

On lap 19, Trulli was still a few seconds behind.

Lap 20, he closed but was still not sufficiently close by any stretch of the imagination. Lap time 120.3

Lap 21 he closes further but not sufficiently to be impeded. 120:1

Lap 22, he finally closes up on Lewis on the 2nd half of the Lap but I can't tell if he overtakes and pits or sits behind and pits.

I also can't tell about any blue flags.

What is obvious is he was only in a potential situation to overtake for a few corners.

Thanks to vision F1

and



From the data I posted, he wasn't held up for 2 laps but may have been for a few corners just before he pitted but as it appears no blue flag was shown, he did nothing wrong.


From re-watching the race, or at least that segmet of it, I can tell you that Massa did indeed serve his drive through... however regarding the blue flags, I believe Hamilton was eventually shown some... why? because I did error in a previous posting in this thread regarding when Hamilton did let Trulli by, which was just prior to the first corner so Hamilton was indeed only in the way for some 2 complete laps, but on those two laps Hamilton had stretched out a gap from Trulli on the start/finish straight, suggesting that when he did let Trulli by, it was because he was told to, or it finaly sunk in that he was holding up the race leader...

[ShiftingGears]

Although it was obvious to everyone, it can't really be proved.

It's a ludicrous piece of legislation anyway.

Yep. The legislation essentially means do it, but don't make it too obvious.

Imagine if the stewards enforced that rule as tightly as they did for the "gaining an advantage" rule. Yikes.

[wmcot]

how about no penalty for team orders today for ferrari?

i know most teams would have done it (though BMW didn't), but it's still illegal.

Can anybody name a team that wouldn't have done the same thing in the same circumstances?

If we're going to complain about Kimi letting Massa past, we also ought to check into Heikki's "retirement" (read as free new engine for Brazil.)

Neither one is a big deal and they certainly aren't new strategies.