Bourdais penalty *Part 2*

[pino]

Due to some "technical problems" the original thread and poll have gone so please let's continue the discussioon in here. I won't add a new poll again as I believe we don't need it ;) Sorry for the inconvenience :(

[ArrowsFA1]

Given the poll results the majority here clearly felt it was an absurd penalty.

For the second time this season Felipe Massa has been gifted undeserved points by un-appealable decisions. Is it any wonder there are questions about the stewards and, worse still, the FIA's influence on the championship outcome?

[Valve Bounce]

Given the poll results the majority here clearly felt it was an absurd penalty.

For the second time this season Felipe Massa has been gifted undeserved points by un-appealable decisions. Is it any wonder there are questions about the stewards and, worse still, the FIA's influence on the championship outcome?

No!! :rolleyes:

[MAX_THRUST]

A Championship fairly won is far sweeter than a championship that has been influenced by the FIA and poor stewardship. If Massa wins will he ever be happy knowing he had additional assistance in winning.

In a way now I hope Kubica and BMW win it. Just for being consistent.

[Dave B]

For the sake of completeness I'll post links to the screencaps I made:

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00189.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00190.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00191.jpg

These I believe clearly show Bordais hugging the kerb as Massa turns across into him. Where else was he supposed to go?

He could have driven over the kerb, I suppose, but ask Lewis how that works out!

[PolePosition_1]

For the sake of completeness I'll post links to the screencaps I made:

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00189.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00190.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00191.jpg

These I believe clearly show Bordais hugging the kerb as Massa turns across into him. Where else was he supposed to go?

He could have driven over the kerb, I suppose, but ask Lewis how that works out!

Nicely found.

I agree, as an Alonso fan, I was really pleased with the race, but seeing these stewards make decisions such as that and the Hamilton one, it just ruins it. I'm totally fustrated by it all.

[pino]

And for the sake of completeness, before the thread disappeared the poll results were :

55 voted the penalty was unfair
3 voted the penalty was fair

:p :

[seppefan]

Bet Bourdais feels good about the support he gets from Toro Rosso. All they really cared about was the fact that Vettel gets anothe point. At least Mclaren fight for Hamilton even if you might not agree they should fight particular penalties. THey are a team whwereas Berger was too much of a drip to fight. Well would you if you are trying to keep a customer car. Politics, oh how they are ruinning our sport.

[leopard]

You might forget that starting from Belgian GP onwards, penalty is the in-thing of stewards :)

[Viktory]

I was worried Massa was the one who was gonna get the penalty. So this one really surprised me. Bourdais definitiely did not deserve a penalty (nor did Massa in my opinion).

[leopard]

And for the sake of completeness, before the thread disappeared the poll results were :

55 voted the penalty was unfair
3 voted the penalty was fair

:p :


You might forget that starting from Belgian GP onwards, penalty is the in-thing of stewards :)

[MAX_THRUST]

Martin Brundell said we are heading into a Nanny state. He is right. Everything that happns we expect a penalty.

So why did Massa not get a penalty for going off track and overtaking Webber on the Pit Lane red and white striped area????

Must be because the Ferrari was red and couldn't be seen.

Really if we want people to think the sport is far things need to change, the bourdais penalty really is very sad for those who love sport.

[Knock-on]

And for the sake of completeness, before the thread disappeared the poll results were :

55 voted the penalty was unfair
3 voted the penalty was fair

:p :

I would like to know is apart from ioan, who thought the penalty was fair and why?

[MAX_THRUST]

I didn't need to look at the pictures to see the penalty was fair. Now that I have, how can anyone in there right mind think it was.

The FIA must sort this out, surely the penalty should be over turned. STR don't want to upset the engine supplier, and part of the deal being struck is Bourdais is told to shut up and gets a drive next year. If he opens his mouth and moans he will be gone. Not based on fact....

[Hondo]

Although this appears to be a Ferrari bias, it really isn't anything of the kind. It just so happens that a McLaren or Ferrari is in the vicinity when these things happen. Coincidence, that's all. I believe the real reason for poor stewardship is so, at the end of the season, Max, as head of the FIA, can take full responsibility for the poor decisions and have himself well and truly spanked for being naughty.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[Knock-on]

I didn't need to look at the pictures to see the penalty was fair. Now that I have, how can anyone in there right mind think it was.

Apparently a couple of die hard Ferrari fanatics agree with the FIA but the rest of the true Tifosi and racing fans in general disagree.


The FIA must sort this out, surely the penalty should be over turned.

The FIA will overturn the penalty, stop handing out spurious penalties to aid Ferrari and Max will retire next year.

Pigs fuelled and ready to fly.


STR don't want to upset the engine supplier, and part of the deal being struck is Bourdais is told to shut up and gets a drive next year. If he opens his mouth and moans he will be gone. Not based on fact....

I can't see STR rocking the boat too much.

[Knock-on]

Although this appears to be a Ferrari bias, it really isn't anything of the kind. It just so happens that a McLaren or Ferrari is in the vicinity when these things happen. Coincidence, that's all. I believe the real reason for poor stewardship is so, at the end of the season, Max, as head of the FIA, can take full responsibility for the poor decisions and have himself well and truly spanked for being naughty.

Then again, I could be wrong.

:laugh:

You've been a naughty, naughty boy max with all these decisions.

Now, bend over and assume the position.

:laugh:

[ioan]

For the sake of completeness I'll post links to the screencaps I made:

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00189.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00190.jpg
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00191.jpg

These I believe clearly show Bordais hugging the kerb as Massa turns across into him. Where else was he supposed to go?

He could have driven over the kerb, I suppose, but ask Lewis how that works out!

Where are the screen captions of the moment of the contact? Showing half evidence = no evidence at all.

[Bagwan]

Blue light .
Was the blue light on ?
What does a blue light mean ?
Does it mean you let a car behind past ?

If Bourdais got a blue light at the end of the lane , he was obligated to leave Massa the right of way .
The screen caps show clearly that Massa was at a higher rate of speed .

The Singapore race has been mentioned , but the entry and exit from the pits at that track were very dangerous , with both having the exitting or entering driver on the fast line with little sighting of on coming traffic .

Here we have more view .

So , Bourdais must have known he was coming .
He must have known the Massa was faster .
He may have had a blue light directing him to give way .

Felipe would have known all of the above , too .

Therefore , Massa likely expected him to back out , and took the line to which he was entitled .


Anyone got a picture of that blue light ?

By the way , I am not one who voted in the poll .

[fizzicist]

Where are the screen captions of the moment of the contact? Showing half evidence = no evidence at all.

King Knut speaks... ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

What does a blue light mean ?
Does it mean you let a car behind past ?
If you're about to be lapped then the blue flag means exactly that. Drivers have a few corners to let the car lapping them through.

I don't think the blue light at the exit of the pitlane has exactly the same meaning as the blue flag. My understanding was that it is used as a warning of an approaching car(s), just to make the driver aware (as he can't see over the pit wall) that he may be entering the circuit into traffic. It's not an instruction, just information for the driver.

As Bourdais said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71360): "For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was."

[Daniel]

The roll was actually 70 something to 3 when I last saw it :p i was one of the 70 if anyone is wondering!

[SkyTom]

last i saw it was 3 agree, 86 disagree!

[pino]

By the way , I am not one who voted in the poll .

I can start a new poll for you if you wish...or you can post here whether you agree with stewards or not ;)

[MAX_THRUST]

But it was okay for Massa to drive along the painted chevron area of the pitts to pass Webber risking the safety of any car that may have been coming out of the pitts at that moment. There is no way the team told him to go that way.

Massa was dangerous on Sunday.....Three incidents as I saw it. Two involved collisions the third very nearly, why wasn't Webber penalised ofr forcing Massa onto the Pitt Lane exit??????

To many wrong decisions being made. Hope Bernie and the teams insist on parrity in future.....but I doubt it.

[pino]

last i saw it was 3 agree, 86 disagree!

Sorry but I do sleep in night time :p :

[Daniel]

Max thrust. Can I get some of those silver and red tinted glasses?

[ioan]

King Knut speaks... ;)

King Knut or not I stared several times to the replays of that move and at the moment of the contact Bourdais wasn't on the kerbs, not even close to them, he was close to the middle of the track, and this only means that Massa gave him more than enough place while Seb overestimated his cars cornering abilities on cold tires and with a heavy fuel load.

[Bagwan]

I can start a new poll for you if you wish...or you can post here whether you agree with stewards or not ;)

Well , Pino , I am not sure .
If this blue light thing is cleared up , maybe I will have the evidence I need .

Clearly , this was two drivers vying for the same piece if tarmac .
Massa , unfortunately , was as bent on making up time and position as Lewis was in Spa .
He should have given more space and waited to get him at the exit of the turn .
Conversely , Bourdais perhaps should have lifted , knowing Massa had him with the speed he had over Seb . If he had a blue light , it negates the idea a decision was on offer .

If I see the light that he saw the light , then the see-saw falls on Seb .

[ioan]

If you're about to be lapped then the blue flag means exactly that. Drivers have a few corners to let the car lapping them through.

I don't think the blue light at the exit of the pitlane has exactly the same meaning as the blue flag.

I think that the blue light and the blue flag have exactly the same meaning, give way to the faster car.

[ioan]

But it was okay for Massa to drive along the painted chevron area of the pitts to pass Webber risking the safety of any car that may have been coming out of the pitts at that moment. There is no way the team told him to go that way.

Massa was dangerous on Sunday.....Three incidents as I saw it. Two involved collisions the third very nearly, why wasn't Webber penalised ofr forcing Massa onto the Pitt Lane exit??????

To many wrong decisions being made. Hope Bernie and the teams insist on parrity in future.....but I doubt it.

Everything Massa does is wrong. Why? Cause he's called Massa and not Hamilton!
Everything Hamilton does is correct. Why? Cause he's called Hamilton!
Everything Bourdais does is corect if it involves Massa and wrong if it involves Hamilton. Why? Not so difficult to guess.

The day I see a sensible explanation from you or even a try, instead of a load of gratuitous bitch!ng about the FIA, the Stewards, Max or Ferrari i'll know you turned it on.

[gravity]

Everything Massa does is wrong. Why? Cause he's called Massa and not Hamilton!
Everything Hamilton does is correct. Why? Cause he's called Hamilton!
Everything Bourdais does is corect if it involves Massa and wrong if it involves Hamilton. Why? Not so difficult to guess.

The day I see a sensible explanation from you or even a try, instead of a load of gratuitous bitch!ng about the FIA, the Stewards, Max or Ferrari i'll know you turned it on.

Arguing for or against what a dirver does, based on their name is laughable. Come on ioan, u know better than that! :rolleyes:

Then u go on to ask for a sensible explanation from someone else? HAHA

[Knock-on]

I think that the blue light and the blue flag have exactly the same meaning, give way to the faster car.

Care to back that up with fact?

;)

[Dave B]

But it was okay for Massa to drive along the painted chevron area of the pitts to pass Webber risking the safety of any car that may have been coming out of the pitts at that moment. There is no way the team told him to go that way.

Massa was dangerous on Sunday.....Three incidents as I saw it. Two involved collisions the third very nearly, why wasn't Webber penalised ofr forcing Massa onto the Pitt Lane exit??????

To many wrong decisions being made. Hope Bernie and the teams insist on parrity in future.....but I doubt it.

I posted some grabs (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/cap00180.jpg) of Massa which show his left-hand wheels just about on (not over) the white line.

What he did may have been questionable from a safety point of view, but he broke no rules. Maybe the rules should be changed to avoid a repeat, that's a seperate discussion, but Felipe did nothing illegal.

[Dave B]

I think that the blue light and the blue flag have exactly the same meaning, give way to the faster car.
The blue light alerts the car leaving the pits to a faster one on the track, and warns the driver to take care.

However Bordais was well and truly past the end of the "blend" line and therefore racing Massa on the track, as he was entitled to do.

[ioan]

Care to back that up with fact?

;)

No. Why should I? Do you ever bring facts to the discussion? I certainly don't remember them.

[Dave B]

No. Why should I? Do you ever bring facts to the discussion? I certainly don't remember them.

Don't worry, you wouldn't be able to anyway as you're wrong:



39.2 During the race, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the light at the end of the pit lane is green and on their own responsibility. A marshal with a blue flag and/or a flashing blue light, will also warn the driver if cars are approaching on the track.

Source: the rulebook (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf)you're so fond of telling others to look through.

Nothing in that about giving way.

[Tonieke]

No. Why should I? Do you ever bring facts to the discussion? I certainly don't remember them.

No but you put it in your signature..noone else does ! ;-)

[ioan]

And what exactly means a blue flag, Dave?

[Dave B]

When exiting the pits it is to "warn the driver if cars are approaching on the track".

If you have a more credible source than the FIA's own regulations as to the meaning of a blue flag at the exit of a pit lane, please feel free to provide a link.

[ioan]

No but you put it in your signature..noone else does ! ;-)

So what? :confused:
I can put in my signature whatever I want as long as it isn't offensive.
Or maybe you feel offended? Anyway I couldn't care less! :D

[gravity]

And what exactly means a blue flag, Dave?

Depending on how its presented, it could mean different things. If its held out, it warns the driver of cars approaching on track. If it is waved, it warns the driver that he needs to allow the faster car to pass as he is about to be lapped.

The flashing blue light in the pits is NOT meant as a waving blue flag. Especially since the approaching car was racing for position.

I'd understand the issue if the collision occured before turn 1 (as the car exiting the pits might have turned in front of the car on track) but this incident occured after the apex of turn 1. How does that have anything to do with the pit entry/exit?

[ioan]

When exiting the pits it is to "warn the driver if cars are approaching on the track".

If you have a more credible source than the FIA's own regulations as to the meaning of a blue flag at the exit of a pit lane, please feel free to provide a link.

No, but i appreciate it more when someone gives the full explication rather than only half of it, like the 3 pics you posted that mean nothing, as they don't show the moment when the cars made contact, still it didn't stop you from claiming that Massa pushed Bourdais on the kerbs.

[Knock-on]

When exiting the pits it is to "warn the driver if cars are approaching on the track".

If you have a more credible source than the FIA's own regulations as to the meaning of a blue flag at the exit of a pit lane, please feel free to provide a link.


opan should perfectly well know what the Blue flag means as I pointed it out to him a month or so ago.

He was unaware that there is different meanings between Practice, qualifying and the race itself.

Even after posting the "facts" from the FIA regulations (apparently something I never do ;) ) ioan continued to argue that the FIA regulations were in fact wrong :laugh:

For ioans benefit.


39) THE RACE

39.2 During the race, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the light at the end of the pit lane is
green and on their own responsibility. A marshal with a blue flag and/or a flashing blue light, will also warn
the driver if cars are approaching on the track.

[ioan]

ioan continued to argue that the FIA regulations were in fact wrong :laugh:

Really? I'm not aware of continuing anything on that subject.
And if remember right (and I'm sure I do), it was a discussion about what lapped drivers have to do when shown the blue flag and not about the meaning of the blue flag.

So, get your facts right. Or call them fiction, a much better fitting name in fact! :laugh:

[salmo]

And what exactly means a blue flag, Dave?
You seem to be confusing "blue flag" with "blue light", I guess because they are the same color. As Dave has shown in the FIA rule book, they are NOT the same thing. The flashing blue light at pit exit is merely "to warn drivers leaving the pit lane if cars are approaching on the track". Nothing about giving way or letting them pass. It is very different from a blue flag. (When is a car fighting for position ever show a blue flag anyway?)

Yes, Bourdais was shown the blue light to warn him that Massa was approaching. All race long, we saw cars exiting the pits under the flashing blue light, and fighting for position in Turn 1, and somehow they all managed to avoid contact except for Massa.

[gravity]

Marshalls are supposed to hold the blue flag out to warn the lead driver that another car is approaching. This does not mean that he has to give way. You prob won't see this flag shown very often in an F1 race, but it is shown regularly at less prestigious races (like your local derby). The flashing blue light at the pit exit is to be treated as a stationary blue flag.

When the approaching car is coming up to lap another car, the car in front is shown a waved blue flag. This means that he has to give way to the faster car.

[Dave B]

No, but i appreciate it more when someone gives the full explication rather than only half of it, like the 3 pics you posted that mean nothing, as they don't show the moment when the cars made contact, still it didn't stop you from claiming that Massa pushed Bourdais on the kerbs.

Fair point, I did promise to post more so here they are. Apologies for the crappy quality as I've just done them in somewhat of a hurry.

In batches of five as I'm limited by the forum software. Click for full-size versions.


http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji001t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji001.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji002t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji002.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji003t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji003.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji004t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji004.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji005t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji005.jpg)

[Dave B]

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji006t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji006.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji007t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji007.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji008t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji008.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji009t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji009.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji010t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji010.jpg)

[Dave B]

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji011t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji011.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji012t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji012.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji013t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji013.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji014t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji014.jpg)

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji015t.jpg (http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji015.jpg)

[Dave B]

To me that shows that Bordais was tight to the kerb until Massa made contact with him, after which both cars drifted out towards the left of the track.

It's also apparent that the incident happens well after the end of the "blend" line, so they were racing for position.

[ioan]

You seem to be confusing "blue flag" with "blue light", I guess because they are the same color.

:laugh:

39.2 During the race, drivers leaving the pit lane may only do so when the light at the end of the pit lane is
green and on their own responsibility. A marshal with a blue flag and/or a flashing blue light, will also warn
the driver if cars are approaching on the track.

I think you are confusing me with your mates.

[jens]

And for the sake of completeness, before the thread disappeared the poll results were :

55 voted the penalty was unfair
3 voted the penalty was fair

:p :

Obviously stewards will continue giving unfair penalties until they have finally made it into the record books by being the only ones, who support a decision and everyone else being against it. ;)

[ioan]

To me that shows that Bordais was tight to the kerb until Massa made contact with him, after which both cars drifted out towards the left of the track.

It's also apparent that the incident happens well after the end of the "blend" line, so they were racing for position.

To me it shows that when they made contact Bourdais had half of the track at disposal, so it isn't that Massa didn't give him enough place, as you are implying, based on I don't exactly know what but not on your own screen captures.

Let's say that I stick with what I can see, and that is Bourdais driving his STR into another car that already overtook him and who gave him half the track to keep clean of a collision.

Go back to the US Le Seb, F1 isn't for you, finesse is needed when racing a heavy f1 car on cold tires, not only balls.

[Dave B]

:laugh: I think you are confusing me with your mates.
Are you going to address any of the points raised, or just lash out as normally happens when you're backed into a corner?

[ioan]

Obviously stewards will continue giving unfair penalties until they have finally made it into the record books by being the only ones, who support a decision and everyone else being against it. ;)

I didn't see STR complaining about it either. Funny eh?

[Dave B]

I didn't see STR complaining about it either. Funny eh?

Maybe that's becuase (a) they know where their engines come from and (b) it turns out that since Spa you can't appeal a drive-through penalty.

[Dave B]

To me it shows that when they made contact Bourdais had half of the track at disposal, so it isn't that Massa didn't give him enough place, as you are implying, based on I don't exactly know what but not on your own screen captures.
I don't usually resort to capitals, but....

WHAT?!

"Half the track at his disposal"? He was on the racing line. To one side there was a kerb, to the other a Ferrari.

Pray tell: how exactly was he supposed to use the other half of the track?

Just a thought, you do know that Massa's car is the red one, and Bordais' is blue/dark red, don't you? That might explain a lot... :dozey:

[ArrowsFA1]

Let's say that I stick with what I can see...
http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji015t.jpg

What do you see :confused: :eek: :crazy:

[SGWilko]

No, but i appreciate it more when someone gives the full explication rather than only half of it, like the 3 pics you posted that mean nothing, as they don't show the moment when the cars made contact, still it didn't stop you from claiming that Massa pushed Bourdais on the kerbs.

I seem to remember MS being very aggressive out of the pits at USA in '05 against RB, I remember that race as it was the only race the red cars had any hope of winning fair and square that year. ;)

[yodasarmpit]

Ioan, be the bigger man and accept you have made a mistake.
We all make mistakes from time to time, but sometimes you just have to accept you are wrong.

On this occasion it's clear that Seb B did nothing wrong and was unfairly penalised.

[Robinho]

2 things - 1 Seb has no track left, Massa has taken the usual racing line with no regard for there being a car alongside.

2, and you might like this, despite the inflammatory headline, Sir Charles of Whiting issued pre-race direction on more than one occasion, "that the car exiting the pits has right of way" see here;

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/170462-0/bourdais_fuji_penalty_against_fia_advice.html

Fair enough Massa seemed to have nearly effected a pass on Bourdais, but in doing so it was MASSA who had more than half the track to his disposal at the point of impact, having started wide, headed for the apex and hit the thing parked on it - he had plenty of room to run out alongside Seb and take the inside for the next corner, rather than attempt to run him off the road or force him into braking mid-corner

having then spun out i don't think there would have been any need to call Massa for the incident and penalise him further, but to penalise Bourdais is plain idiocy.

finally (point 3 of my 2 point rant!) why did they review the event after the race, rather than during it when there were stil 16 laps left (over 20 mins), i though that option was reserved for matters in the closing laps when there wouldn't be time - i would presume that it was due to a Ferrari complaint rather than the stewards doing it off their own back, and as such they had to give Ferrari a chance and Torro Rosso, to argue their cases, rather than just looking att he incident and deciding for themselves - purely conjecture on my part, but it would fit the circumstances IMO

[Caroline]

why did they review the event after the race, rather than during it when there were stil 16 laps left (over 20 mins)

This seems a valid question to me. Some incidents get examined during the race and others don't. Surely they had all the evidence they needed from on board cameras, telemetry etc?

[yodasarmpit]

why did they review the event after the race, rather than during it when there were stil 16 laps left (over 20 mins),
If one were to be cynical, one could suggest that they were waiting to see if a penalty would benefit Massa, on this occasion it did and a penalty was applied.

As I say, one would need to be very cynical to suggest such a thing.


In truth they most likely felt that 20 minutes was insufficient time to properly evaluate the incident.

[hmmm - donuts]

I didn't see STR complaining about it either. Funny eh?

Well they don't want to jeopardise their supply of Ferrari engines do they?

[zilly]

From the FIAs point of view

Lap 50: Trulli and Bourdais pit. Massa posts a 1m18.893s. Bourdais rejoins just behind the Brazilian, the cars touch and Massa spins.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressinformation/f1pressinfo/japan/Pages/race_facts.aspx

[hmmm - donuts]

Since they already appeared to be clear of the line that delineates the pit lane exit, I'd assumed that Bourdais had already rejoined when Massa attempted to overtake. Since Massa was overtaking then Bourdais must have rejoined in front of Massa.

[Bagwan]

Dave , that first shot shows Massa along side of Bourdais , with the blend line just in the background .
That shows the maneouver to have started before the line ended .

The final picture in the series shows Massa three quarters of his car ahead , with Bourdais at least a car width off the curbing .

Sebastian rejoined with Massa beside him .
Though technically that blue light only tells of an approaching vehicle , it stands as a warning , and , as such , must be seen as telling the driver he is responsible for re-entering safely .
Massa saw no light , and entered the corner obviously expecting Sebastian to give way .
It simply should be that the obligation for drivers upon re-entry is with the driver re-entering .

[zilly]

Dave , that first shot shows Massa along side of Bourdais , with the blend line just in the background .
That shows the maneouver to have started before the line ended .
What pictures are you looking at!



Sebastian rejoined with Massa beside him .
If so, massa would have passed Bourdais well before the apex with the extra speed he could use having the wider line starting from the outside of the track.

[pino]

Japanese GP Footage (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html) this might help a bit ;)

[Bagwan]

Vettel and Webber moved to 6th and 8th as a result , so I guess it wasn't all bad for the stable(s) .
The Bourdais pout will hurt , potentially , the aerodynamics , so they may have some work to do before the next race .

After a fair bit of thought , after a long read of all your opinions , I vote for it being a fair penalty .

Essentially , if you exit the pit lane , having just seen the blue light , and a guy gets all the way beside you , you had better lift , as he has the right of way .
That driver , unlike yourself , has had no cautionary warnings about your approach , as he is at racing speed with warmed tires , potentially on the racing line .


Though I believe the penalty correct , there is an underlying issue that needs to be addressed in regards to the track itself which should easily deal with this .
Tracks should not be designed so that the pit exit or entrance is on the fast line . EVER !
Singapore is the worst example I've seen in years , but this issue would not occur if the pits ended farther away from the corner , or the corner went the other way .

[yodasarmpit]

Japanese GP Footage (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html) this might help a bit ;) Great footage, the F1 administration really need to produce more of this stuff after every race.

The flat spots on Hamiltons front tyres after the first corner, ouch.

[Bagwan]

Japanese GP Footage (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html) this might help a bit ;)

Thank-you , Pino .
The last view shows Massa crossing the blend line at the pit exit ahead of Bourdais just as it starts .

Case closed .
Thanks to all for coming out .

[zilly]

Well I got that wrong, I thought Massa was better than that.

[jjanicke]

Blue light .
Was the blue light on ?
What does a blue light mean ?
Does it mean you let a car behind past ?

If Bourdais got a blue light at the end of the lane , he was obligated to leave Massa the right of way .
The screen caps show clearly that Massa was at a higher rate of speed .

The Singapore race has been mentioned , but the entry and exit from the pits at that track were very dangerous , with both having the exitting or entering driver on the fast line with little sighting of on coming traffic .

Here we have more view .

So , Bourdais must have known he was coming .
He must have known the Massa was faster .
He may have had a blue light directing him to give way .

Felipe would have known all of the above , too .

Therefore , Massa likely expected him to back out , and took the line to which he was entitled .


Anyone got a picture of that blue light ?

By the way , I am not one who voted in the poll .

BLUE LIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was for position. Since when is a fight for position determined via a blue flag (or fncking light)?????

Let's just fncking BLUE LIGHT the field and let Massa thru. (p.s. nothing against Massa but the decision are all going his way this year)

[jjanicke]

King Knut or not I stared several times to the replays of that move and at the moment of the contact Bourdais wasn't on the kerbs, not even close to them, he was close to the middle of the track, and this only means that Massa gave him more than enough place while Seb overestimated his cars cornering abilities on cold tires and with a heavy fuel load.

Keep staring then, because there's no way you could make that decision if the staring blur didn't kick in.

[jjanicke]

I think that the blue light and the blue flag have exactly the same meaning, give way to the faster car.

Get your facts straight. In a race the blue flag has nothing to do with "give way to the faster car."

In a race the blue flag only means that lapped traffic needs to give way to the "lapper".

[fizzicist]

Just to add to the debate here, note that in an overtaking situation, the car on the racing line on corner exit is well within their rights to keep the racing line and force the car on the outside to either back off or use run off area. We saw this at the Japanese grand prix itself at other points.

So Massa is on the outside, Bourdais is on the racing line and Massa fails to allow room for their being two cars (note that in the published screengrabs the cars are a long way to the inside of the corner considering they're on the exit of the corner).

As has been said elsewhere, Massa was just downright dangerous at Fuji.

For the record, I'm no great fan of Bourdais I thought some of his on track behaviour in champcar was poor, but he's been robbed here. However, the root of my objection is that a sport I've always loved is being ruined and made to look a farce by ludicrous decisions such as this.

[ArrowsFA1]

Japanese GP Footage (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html) this might help a bit ;)
It's quite extraordinary that the official F1 website, not the FIA, have produced this footage under the heading Japanese Grand Prix footage - what do you think?.

As for "case closed" I agree. Massa assumed he could take the line he wanted through turn 1. He was at fault.

[schmenke]

The stewards decision was probably correct, albeit marginal. This is, however, yet another example of what in previous years would have been considered a racing incident :mark: . 2008 shall be known as the "year of the stewards" :down:

[jjanicke]

Really? I'm not aware of continuing anything on that subject.

I am. I was part of the discussion. You are wrong with your memory.

[jjanicke]

Ioan, be the bigger man and accept you have made a mistake.

Don't hold your breath. Sorry, but it true.

[Easy Drifter]

Robiho beat me to a point I was going to make. I think even ioan would have to admit this one through his Ferrari coloured blinkers.
Massa still had HALF of the track left to the outside. He probably could have completed the pass without cutting down.
The rule always has been the car attempting a pass is the one who is responsible to make it cleanly. This was not lapping. It was a fight for position. It may not be in the rule book but it is what racing is all about.
Massa broke that rule.
I know I am harping on this but stewards need to have racing experience as well as an ability to read the rule book. They do not have to be ex F1 drivers just people with some sort of a clue as to what happens in a race.
I watched over a 100 events on all types of tracks before I raced. I got my eyes opened very quickly once I started driving. I wasn't the greatest but I did win my class in both production cars and sports racing and held lap records.
Massa screwed up. Seabass (who I do not like) was in the right!
Ioan you can be very right and sensible when it does not invove a Ferrari. If it does Ferrari drivers are all angels and the rest devils out to destroy the almighty red cars.
Better change my signature icon!

[jjanicke]

Thank-you , Pino .
The last view shows Massa crossing the blend line at the pit exit ahead of Bourdais just as it starts .

Case closed .
Thanks to all for coming out .

Bag assuming you are correct in your opinion that Massa beat Bourdais to the "blend line", where in the FIA rule book does it give the turn to the driver based on when they passed the blend line? In fact the only thing I could find regarding the "blend line", which is actually called the "second safety car line", has boting to do with passing during a race and only to do with passing during a safety car period.

Anyway as far as I know the rules (I'll admit I don't know them perfectly, but did look it up) Bourdais was well within his right to protect his position. So the only question is whether or not it was avoidable contact, and if so, who was at fault. Not who passed the blend line when!!!

So based on that assumption do you feel Bourdais was at fault for Massa's spin? (I believe your answer will still be yes, but at least from the right point of view)

[woody2goody]

Bag assuming you are correct in your opinion that Massa beat Bourdais to the "blend line", where in the FIA rule book does it give the turn to the driver based on when they passed the blend line?

As far as I know the rules (I'll admit I don't know them perfectly, but did look it up) Bourdais was well within his right to protect his position. So the only question is whether or not it was avoidable contact, and if so, who was at fault. Not who passed the blend line when!!!

So based on that assumption do you feel Bourdais was at fault for Massa's spin? (I believe your answer will still be yes, but at least from the right point of view)

The blend line means absolutely nothing.

With regards to the official FIA/FOM footage, it's interesting how absolutely no-one has any footage onboard from Bourdais' car. They may not have had a camera on the Toro Rosso but I thought all of the cars carried working cameras these days?

With Felipe taking the wider line, surely it would have been easier and faster to have gone wider round the outside of Bourdais? Add to the fact Bourdais would probably have had worse traction than the Ferrari and it's pretty clear to me he would have got past the Frenchman before the next corner if he hadn't have hit him.

Sebastien sums it up for me when he said:

'He was going to pit 3 laps later, and would have finished behind us anyway, so why did he do something like that?' (By the way the quote isn't exact in case anyone wants to be picky :) )

[ioan]

Maybe that's becuase (a) they know where their engines come from and (b) it turns out that since Spa you can't appeal a drive-through penalty.

a) they have a contract and they are paying for their engines
b) it was always the case, it's in the rules, you should know it better than me

[ioan]

I am. I was part of the discussion. You are wrong with your memory.

Prove it. I doubt you can however.

[ioan]

- 1 Seb has no track left...

Didn't see him put a wheel in the grass, so he had enough place left for him on the track.



Fair enough Massa seemed to have nearly effected a pass on Bourdais, but in doing so it was MASSA who had more than half the track to his disposal at the point of impact

At the moment of the impact each had half the track at disposal. So I don't see where are you seeing that it's Massa's fault, Unless you are a tad biased against him.

[ioan]

Well they don't want to jeopardise their supply of Ferrari engines do they?

Because Ferrari will likely throw away those tens of millions they get for the engines from Red Bull?
Or because you think Ferrari aren't ethical enough to respect their contract?

Last I checked none of these was the case.

[ioan]

Keep staring then, because there's no way you could make that decision if the staring blur didn't kick in.

Bla bla bla. Now, next time say something that makes sense and adds to the debate, please.



Get your facts straight. In a race the blue flag has nothing to do with "give way to the faster car."

In a race the blue flag only means that lapped traffic needs to give way to the "lapper".

I bet the "lapper" (whatever that actually means) is the faster car! Ah those logic problems! :rolleyes: :laugh:

[ioan]

As for "case closed" I agree. Massa assumed he could take the line he wanted through turn 1. He was at fault.

:laugh:

[ioan]

Sebastien sums it up for me when he said:

'He was going to pit 3 laps later, and would have finished behind us anyway, so why did he do something like that?' (By the way the quote isn't exact in case anyone wants to be picky :) )

Because he was way faster.

[ioan]

Anyway, justice was done and after watching the video provided by Pino ( thanks Pino :up: ), it's obvious that justice was done and I can serenely look forward to next week end's race knowing that justice has been done!

As for all the armchair "experts" who think that the stewards was wrong, and this even after there is evidence that they weren't, fell free to continue being unhappy. :D

[ArrowsFA1]

At the moment of the impact each had half the track at disposal.
The evidence simply does not support that opinion.

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji015t.jpg

[ShiftingGears]

The evidence simply does not support that opinion.

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji015t.jpg

DON'T SAY IT IT'S NOT TRUE! Bourdais had half the track at his disposal!*







*For exceptionally small values of half.

[Dave B]

I bet the "lapper" (whatever that actually means) is the faster car! Ah those logic problems! :rolleyes: :laugh:

You can't state that you don't understand something then claim it logically supports your arguement :crazy:

According to the rules, Massa was racing for position on the same lap as Bordais. Therefore if he was in the faster car it's up to him to pass the Toro Rosso - blue flags don't come into it.

If Bordais had been a lap down - which Massa may have mistakenly assumed - then he would have been guilty of blocking and thoroughly deserved a penalty. But he wasn't.

[Bagwan]

Massa crossed the line first .
The line at the end of pit lane is a line that the driver exitting must not cross .
The line at the end , straight across , delineates the end of that zone .

Therefore , Bourdais entered the track behind Massa .

Since that is a fact , then it was Bourdais who was making a pass .
It was Massa , who had seen no flags or lights , blue , green or purple , who had the right of way over a driver who's responsibility was to enter the track safely .
Had Sebastian crossed the line ahead , I would see it the other way .
I suspect that the FIA would have seen it that way as well .

Like I said , case closed .

[Dave B]

Like I said , case closed .
Pet peeve of mine, people who end their posts with "Case closed", "End of", or "FACT!".

No, it's your opinion and - according to the poll on the previous thread - very much a minority one.

[Bagwan]

Pet peeve of mine, people who end their posts with "Case closed", "End of", or "FACT!".

No, it's your opinion and - according to the poll on the previous thread - very much a minority one.

Ah , Davy , didn't realize you were so sensitive .

It might be a minority opinion , but I believe it to be based on fact .
I believe it to be what closed the case for the stewards in the situation .

The minority can be in the right , you know .

[ioan]

Massa crossed the line first .
The line at the end of pit lane is a line that the driver exitting must not cross .
The line at the end , straight across , delineates the end of that zone .

Therefore , Bourdais entered the track behind Massa .

Since that is a fact , then it was Bourdais who was making a pass .
It was Massa , who had seen no flags or lights , blue , green or purple , who had the right of way over a driver who's responsibility was to enter the track safely .
Had Sebastian crossed the line ahead , I would see it the other way .
I suspect that the FIA would have seen it that way as well .

Like I said , case closed .

Baggy, you're talking to deaf ears!
Only hate and adulation function around here, cognitive processes are closed out.

There is plenty of evidence both about the exiting process and about the moment of the collision that Le Seb made a mistake, but you can't change people's sentiments, not if they aren't willing to make a step towards trying to reason.

[ioan]

The minority can be in the right , you know .

Not here. The minority must be bashed and laughed at, even if they have facts and logic on their side.

[ioan]

The evidence simply does not support that opinion.

http://www.btccinfo.co.uk/forum/bordaismassa/fuji015t.jpg

Contradicting the very picture you are posting is at list a sign of huge denial, if not something worse.
You hate Ferrari, fine, but don't let that stop you from thinking straight.
Maybe you only need a new pair of glasses. Anyway I'm very sad after reading your post. :\

[Robinho]

Didn't see him put a wheel in the grass, so he had enough place left for him on the track.



At the moment of the impact each had half the track at disposal. So I don't see where are you seeing that it's Massa's fault, Unless you are a tad biased against him.

ok, i'll play, they had some track each at their disposal (half each according to your view), so why is it Bourdais fault? unless you are a tad biased against him?

i've actually never said its Massa's fault - i don't think its clear enough (even in the new Footage on F1.com) to call either way, and its probable that either could have done something to avoid the incident, however i don't think Massa helped himself, i do think he could have easily passed the car, despite wherever you think Bourdais may have been on the track.

there is enough doubt in either direction for me to say there is absolutley no need for a penalty.

[Bagwan]

Baggy, you're talking to deaf ears!
Only hate and adulation function around here, cognitive processes are closed out.

There is plenty of evidence both about the exiting process and about the moment of the collision that Le Seb made a mistake, but you can't change people's sentiments, not if they aren't willing to make a step towards trying to reason.

I don't believe that , Ioan .

It's debate , my friend .
I look forward to hearing what Dave and the others have to say about the fact that it was Bourdais who was behind , making the pass , or , not , as it happened .
Cognitive process is not suspended , but rather , the whole story of why the penalty was given was not told .

I certainly wondered what Felipe was thinking , driving in so tight to Bourdais , but after Pino's entry of the clip showing he crossed the line first , it showed me that the decision was right .

Most here are looking at the issue with the moment of contact being the crux . I believe the moments before to be the determining factor .

One thing I never expect is to have all agree with my opinion , but I feel that the stewards likely used the same logic to arrive at thiers .

[ioan]

I don't believe that , Ioan .

It's debate , my friend .
I look forward to hearing what Dave and the others have to say about the fact that it was Bourdais who was behind , making the pass , or , not , as it happened .
Cognitive process is not suspended , but rather , the whole story of why the penalty was given was not told .

I certainly wondered what Felipe was thinking , driving in so tight to Bourdais , but after Pino's entry of the clip showing he crossed the line first , it showed me that the decision was right .

Most here are looking at the issue with the moment of contact being the crux . I believe the moments before to be the determining factor .

One thing I never expect is to have all agree with my opinion , but I feel that the stewards likely used the same logic to arrive at thiers .

Reading all those previous posts I'm pretty sure nothing will change.
Good luck though!

[ArrowsFA1]

Massa crossed the line first .
The line at the end of pit lane is a line that the driver exitting must not cross .
The line at the end , straight across , delineates the end of that zone .

Therefore , Bourdais entered the track behind Massa.
The line at the end of the pitlane marks the end of the pitlane and the beginning of the track. The moment Bourdais crossed that line his pitlane limiter was off and he was racing, and at that point he was ahead of Massa. The one and only thing he could not do between there and the end of the blend line was cross the blend line.

Massa was ahead at the end of the blend line but would have been aware of the Torro Rosso's position given that he would have seen it exit the pitlane to his right.

Bourdais kept to the inside and "did everything I could not to run into him".

Massa took the corner as if Bourdais was not there. Had he altered his line slightly he still would have emerged from the corner ahead.

That's why I maintain that Massa, not Bourdais, caused an avoidable accident.

[Robinho]

STR co-owner Gerhard Berger, meanwhile, has stepped in to defend his driver Bourdais &#8211] had given him two centimetres more space, they both would have effortlessly made the corner,” the ten-time grand prix-winner is quoted by F1SA as having told Dutch website racefreaks.nl.

“It is a matter of fact that nothing particularly happened to either of them. Two cars touching each other is nothing peculiar in the world of racing.”

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/170533-1/f1_authorities_losing_the_plot_over_penalties.html

so Toro Rosso have not just accepted the penalty and kept quiet after all, as some here have claimed, in support of their arguement that the penalty must have been right.

as for Bagwan's point that Massa was ahead entering the corner, i can see that has some validity on it maybe not being Massa's fault, but i still don't think it puts any onus on Bourdais and gives weight to the penalty that was awarded.

i still say racing incident, too clsoe to call either way to gove out penalties.

case closed ;)

[Knock-on]

Really? I'm not aware of continuing anything on that subject.
And if remember right (and I'm sure I do), it was a discussion about what lapped drivers have to do when shown the blue flag and not about the meaning of the blue flag.

So, get your facts right. Or call them fiction, a much better fitting name in fact! :laugh:

It was a discussion on what a driver should do when shown a Blue flag.

I pointed out that it was different between practice and the race and you disagreed saying that it was the same.

I posted the regulations and you maintained that you stand by your opinion meaning you dispute the regulations.

Just to refresh your memory:

From this thread:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128769&highlight=blue+flag

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514324&postcount=39

ioan

The blue flags mean that a driver that is being lapped has to get off the racing line, not to lift on the racing line.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514335&postcount=41

Knockie

Wrong again.

During practice, it means to give way.

In the race, it is to allow someone to pass at the earliest moment.

You do not have to move off the racing line but merely let them pass.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514343&postcount=42

Ioan

It means the same thing during practice and during race.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514349&postcount=43

Knockie

Stop talking rubbish.

Find the regulations at http://www.fia.com

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514359&postcount=44

Knockie


Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that
he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during
practice and the race.
At all times :
- A stationary fl ag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits
if traffi c is approaching on the track.
During practice :
- Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you.
During the race :
- The fl ag should normally be shown to a car about to be
lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the
following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514415&postcount=45

ioan

I stay by my opinion, it means he has to move of the racing line as soon ASAP, not to slow down, thus the use of the word "opportunity".
I hate it when English speakers don't (or don't want to) understand their own language.

---------------------------------------------------------------

You were incorrect in the use of the flags and when I posted that they have 2 different used you stuck with your opinion even though I posted the FIA regulations that you were wrong.

It’s called facts ioan, something you seem to have very little grasp of.

[ioan]

ok, i'll play, they had some track each at their disposal (half each according to your view), so why is it Bourdais fault? unless you are a tad biased against him?

Because he was behind and because he is the one moving away from the inside of the corner, as per photo evidence, and not Massa who was on the racing line and was going towards the outside in order to take the optimum line into the next corner.

Why should I feel biased against Bourdais?
Because I don't agree that it was Massa's fault?
I have no feelings re Bourdais, as I don't have any towards Fisi, Sutil, Rosberg, Piquet and a lot of other drivers.
I support the 2 Ferrari drivers, out of support for Ferrari, Nick Heidfeld, Vettel and a bit Alonso. I have a problem with Hamilton's arrogance, but he is a top driver for sure.
These are my general feelings about F1 drivers that are now in F1. If I criticize any of the others is based on what they did in the race we are talking about. And on occasions I criticize also those that I support.
It's called trying to be objective, and I don't pretend that I manage to do it every time, but I try. However I get the impression that many others around here don't even try, not even a little bit to put themselves in both situations before giving a verdict.

[Bagwan]

The line at the end of the pitlane marks the end of the pitlane and the beginning of the track. The moment Bourdais crossed that line his pitlane limiter was off and he was racing, and at that point he was ahead of Massa. The one and only thing he could not do between there and the end of the blend line was cross the blend line.

Massa was ahead at the end of the blend line but would have been aware of the Torro Rosso's position given that he would have seen it exit the pitlane to his right.

Bourdais kept to the inside and "did everything I could not to run into him".

Massa took the corner as if Bourdais was not there. Had he altered his line slightly he still would have emerged from the corner ahead.

That's why I maintain that Massa, not Bourdais, caused an avoidable accident.

Fair enough , but Bourdais was in a "controlled" area , therefore not able to race , as you say .
And , as you say , Massa could have altered his line . I think it would have been the smart thing to do .

I must point out that if Bourdais was about .01seconds ahead of where he was when he crossed that line , I would likely have the opposite opinion .

[ArrowsFA1]

Contradicting the very picture you are posting is at list a sign of huge denial, if not something worse.
The picture speaks for itself.

You hate Ferrari, fine, but don't let that stop you from thinking straight. Maybe you only need a new pair of glasses. Anyway I'm very sad after reading your post. :\
Do stop banging on about "hate" :rolleyes: This "hatred" is your invention, a lazy one at that, and the glasses comment...childish.

[Robinho]

Because he was behind and because he is the one moving away from the inside of the corner, as per photo evidence, and not Massa who was on the racing line and was going towards the outside in order to take the optimum line into the next corner.

Why should I feel biased against Bourdais?
Because I don't agree that it was Massa's fault?
I have no feelings re Bourdais, as I don't have any towards Fisi, Sutil, Rosberg, Piquet and a lot of other drivers.
I support the 2 Ferrari drivers, out of support for Ferrari, Nick Heidfeld, Vettel and a bit Alonso. I have a problem with Hamilton's arrogance, but he is a top driver for sure.
These are my general feelings about F1 drivers that are now in F1. If I criticize any of the others is based on what they did in the race we are talking about. And on occasions I criticize also those that I support.
It's called trying to be objective, and I don't pretend that I manage to do it every time, but I try. However I get the impression that many others around here don't even try, not even a little bit to put themselves in both situations before giving a verdict.


i don't agree its Massa's fault (entirely) either, so we agree, its just not all Bourdais fault either - they were both in the same place at the same time with space to avoid each other, no one swereved towards the other, no one was out of control and neither car was ever fully ahead of the other.

no bias on my part, i have no particular favour for Bourdais, other than i think it would be harsh if he lost his drive after some decent performances this year. Similarly no bias against Massa, i quite like the little guy, sometimes i don't agree with him, but on the whole i think he's ok, its just i don't support him, therefore there are other i prefer, bourdais not being one of them.

IMO Massa was never able to fully take the racing line as Bourdais was on the apex. Massa moved fro teh outsdie of the track to the inside and then would have been heading for teh outside at the exit.

Bourdais started on the inside, by default as he had exited the pits and couldn't move over as there was a car already their (Massa).

IMO they both had a right to be inhabiting pretty much the same bit of track, but not the exact same piece of tarmac at the same time. i think Massa could have done more and left Bourdais some more room, perhaps, Bourdais could have done the same, but IMO i think he had less track to his dosposal, and by your very definition, the corner was opening out and the natural line is towards the outside of the exit.

i stand by my feeling that there should have been no penalty either way, or they both should have been penalised for runnning into each other. i cannot see enough from what i've seen or the points raised to suggest that one driver was wholly in the wrong, and thtas what i think the evidence should show to justify a penalty, there should be no doubt

[ArrowsFA1]

Fair enough , but Bourdais was in a "controlled" area , therefore not able to race , as you say .
I agree it was controlled in the sense that Bourdais could not move across the circuit beyond the line to his left, but he was perfectly entitled to race the moment he disengaged the pit-limiter on his Ferrari engine.

And , as you say , Massa could have altered his line . I think it would have been the smart thing to do.
I do think that the new higher cockpit sides may have played their part. Massa would have seen Bourdais exiting the pits, and been aware he was alongisde approaching the corner, but drivers do seem to have lost some periferal vision and this may have been a factor.

[ioan]

The picture speaks for itself.

yes, and it says that Bourdais had 2 car widths at disposal and still he colided with the Ferrari, while the ferrari did continuously leave him more and more room since the entry of the corner.



Do stop banging on about "hate" :rolleyes: This "hatred" is your invention, a lazy one at that, and the glasses comment...childish.

Sorry, but no. I don't stop believing in what I think is the situation. Your hatred for Ferrari is more than documented and it was in the public domain since last year when McLaren were proven to be cheaters and liars and when you started the mudslinging against Ferrari no matter the evidence at hand.

You may say that my view is childish but that won't change the FACT that you hate Ferrari.

[ioan]

i don't agree its Massa's fault (entirely) either, so we agree, its just not all Bourdais fault either - they were both in the same place at the same time with space to avoid each other, no one swereved towards the other, no one was out of control and neither car was ever fully ahead of the other.

no bias on my part, i have no particular favour for Bourdais, other than i think it would be harsh if he lost his drive after some decent performances this year. Similarly no bias against Massa, i quite like the little guy, sometimes i don't agree with him, but on the whole i think he's ok, its just i don't support him, therefore there are other i prefer, bourdais not being one of them.

IMO Massa was never able to fully take the racing line as Bourdais was on the apex. Massa moved fro teh outsdie of the track to the inside and then would have been heading for teh outside at the exit.

Bourdais started on the inside, by default as he had exited the pits and couldn't move over as there was a car already their (Massa).

IMO they both had a right to be inhabiting pretty much the same bit of track, but not the exact same piece of tarmac at the same time. i think Massa could have done more and left Bourdais some more room, perhaps, Bourdais could have done the same, but IMO i think he had less track to his dosposal, and by your very definition, the corner was opening out and the natural line is towards the outside of the exit.

i stand by my feeling that there should have been no penalty either way, or they both should have been penalised for runnning into each other. i cannot see enough from what i've seen or the points raised to suggest that one driver was wholly in the wrong, and thtas what i think the evidence should show to justify a penalty, there should be no doubt

Not imposing a penalty is something I could have lived with as I did with other racing incidents in the past.

What I can't live with is the continuous and not factually supported blabbering that it was Massa's fault because he cut off Bourdais. I know it isn't your view, but it's the view held, in this thread and in the previous (now vanished) thread about this penalty, by the large majority of posters, no matter the evidence.
It's got as far that they contradict the pictures they actually post themselves.

My question is? Can't we reason a bit about a situation before starting to fight about nothing.
I can accept that opinions aren't always the same, but only if there is proof that some kind of reasoning went into the process that had this opinion as a result. And I'm not talking about you, as I always read your opinions and usually try to answer them in a detailed way because you do the same. It's about the majority.

[Bagwan]

I agree it was controlled in the sense that Bourdais could not move across the circuit beyond the line to his left, but he was perfectly entitled to race the moment he disengaged the pit-limiter on his Ferrari engine.

I do think that the new higher cockpit sides may have played their part. Massa would have seen Bourdais exiting the pits, and been aware he was alongisde approaching the corner, but drivers do seem to have lost some periferal vision and this may have been a factor.

That "sense" made it so he couldn't enter the track across the line .
In the sense , does it not show he was not fully on track ?

He was under the control of the pit exit rules , therefore , not fully on track .
Felipe entered the corner ahead . Is that not true ?

[ArrowsFA1]

You may say that my view is childish but that won't change the FACT that you hate Ferrari.
I said your "glasses" comment was childish. Apologies for that but the rest of your post angers me.

Yup, I criticised Ferrari. Guilty. I wasn't alone in doing so. What you need to learn though is that criticism does not equal "hate". Hate is a fanboy term used on forums as flamebait. It's lazy and offensive because it's inaccurate, certainly in my case. Heck, if I "hated" Ferrari I wouldn't give a toss who was at fault in the Massa/Bourdais incident. They were both powered by Ferrari after all :laugh:

I'm going to say no more on this, and I'll be more than happy for the mods to delete the posts relating to this personal exchange, but I was not going to allow accusations of "hatred" stand uncorrected.

[ArrowsFA1]

In the sense , does it not show he was not fully on track?
He was under the control of the pit exit rules , therefore , not fully on track .
My understanding is he was fully on track and racing once the limiter was off. While those exiting the pitlane cannot cross the blend line, those racing down the straight are not restricted. They can cross the same blend line because it is part of the track.


Felipe entered the corner ahead . Is that not true ?
Felipe was ahead as both cars crossed the end of the blend line.

[Mickey T]

I bet the "lapper" (whatever that actually means) is the faster car! Ah those logic problems! :rolleyes: :laugh:

the Lapper clearly means the car overtaking to go a lap in front of a slower car (or more laps in front of a slower car). this is the only time the blue flag is relevant.

they do not show a blue flag (or light) to a driver when he is racing another car for position, as was the case in japan.

to pretend to think otherwise is symptomatic of you dancing around a subject rather than admitting you're are wrong, when you so clearly are wrong.

i don't think it really has anything to do with bourdais exiting the pits. it is about bourdais having the inside line on the corner and still being penalised.

on this logic, if hamilton has squeezed down into raikkonen on the left-hand part of the spa chicane, then raikkonen would have been penalised, not hamilton!

and, if you don't agree with that, then you might be the one with logic issues, ioan...

[Daniel]

:dozey:

[ioan]

I'm going to say no more on this, and I'll be more than happy for the mods to delete the posts relating to this personal exchange, but I was not going to allow accusations of "hatred" stand uncorrected.

Why should the mods delete it when it's only the truth?
I have nothing against my views being known and everything against them being censored while I didn't swear or call anyone any names.

[ioan]

the Lapper clearly means the car overtaking to go a lap in front of a slower car (or more laps in front of a slower car). this is the only time the blue flag is relevant.

they do not show a blue flag (or light) to a driver when he is racing another car for position, as was the case in japan.

to pretend to think otherwise is symptomatic of you dancing around a subject rather than admitting you're are wrong, when you so clearly are wrong.

i don't think it really has anything to do with bourdais exiting the pits. it is about bourdais having the inside line on the corner and still being penalised.

on this logic, if hamilton has squeezed down into raikkonen on the left-hand part of the spa chicane, then raikkonen would have been penalised, not hamilton!

and, if you don't agree with that, then you might be the one with logic issues, ioan...

I know what he meant with "lapper". I was sarcastic.

[jjanicke]

At the moment of the impact each had half the track at disposal.

Prove it. None of the evidence presented so far corroborates your claim. Since I won't hold my breath on your providing any evidence to support your claim does anyone else have a good picture of this apparently 50/50 track split?

[jjanicke]

Fair enough , but Bourdais was in a "controlled" area , therefore not able to race , as you say .
And , as you say , Massa could have altered his line . I think it would have been the smart thing to do .

I must point out that if Bourdais was about .01seconds ahead of where he was when he crossed that line , I would likely have the opposite opinion .

Bag all fair if this ""controlled" area" no racing rule exist. I combed the sporting regs yesterday and the only mention of the line in question is related to SC car periods and what cars can pass what cars when entering and exiting the pit during a SC. The longitudinal line is not allowed to be crossed when exiting the pit, the transverse line (at the end of the longitudinal line) only comes into effect when the SC is deployed. So I can't believe that Bourdais was not allowed to race.

So again I believe this means Bourdais and Massa were allowed space to race into and out of turn 1.

[zilly]

Prove it. None of the evidence presented so far corroborates your claim. Since I won't hold my breath on your providing any evidence to support your claim does anyone else have a good picture of this apparently 50/50 track split?

Their still trying to download it from Ioans imagination :D

[Roamy]

I can just say that I would love to have raced with you guys who think Seb was wrong. I would have had a puntfest with you guys!!

[jjanicke]

The problem at hand is much bigger than just this penalty. HAM's penalty for pushing KOV and RAI wide is clear. MAS's penalty for punting HAM from way back is clear. BOU's penalty makes no sense and has the potential the change the entire game of F1. Absolutely no more passing because of the potential of penalty if you touch, ridiculous!!!

If you start calling foul when no foul was committed the sport will die. The stewards got penalty happy, and it shows. F1 needs better stewardship, as has been evident at several events this year. Perhaps they should have 2 full time stewards and 1 local guest steward. But guest stewards at each event does not allow for consistent regulation.

[gravity]

Japanese GP Footage (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html) this might help a bit ;)

Thanks for that link! That last onboard shot across Massa's cockpit where u can see Seb leaving the pits across Massa's cockpit must be the key evidence that the stewards based their decision on. Just before Massa hit brakes, he was moving must faster than Seb. The speed difference neutralised after Seb got behind Massa's line of vision...
From Massa's POV, he would assume that he had a bigger lead on Seb than was the case. Just imagine the Red Bull in the background moving back at the same rate after it left Massa's vision and u'd get a pretty good idea of where Massa thought Seb was as he turned into the corner. If anyone was to blame for MAKING the contact, it would be Seb as he was slightly behind Massa as they both started braking.

The fact that anyone got smacked with a fine for this incident = stupid decision.

[Knock-on]

I can just say that I would love to have raced with you guys who think Seb was wrong. I would have had a puntfest with you guys!!


You know it Uncs :D

Damn FIA is turning F1 into a Commie sport.

Fancy a game of Golf with Max's nuts :laugh:

[Robinho]

but in the interest of fairness, your view that Arrows hates Ferrari, is only that, your view, not fact. You may be able to back up your opinion with comments and posts that lend weight to your arguement, but its still not facts, still opinion.

and whilst you might disaggree with Arrows (regularly) its still very harsh to accuse people of hating someone. its only sport, we have favourites and we dislike some, often quite irrationally, but i would never say i that i hate a team, or driver. there are some that i enjoy seeing beaten, but thats not the same.

Arrows, IMO, has never spoken out against Ferrari, any stronger than you have about McLaren or Hamilton, and whilst your opinions are well documented here, i don't think you hate either. you may have no respect for them and may love to see them fail or beaten, especially by your team, thats about being a fan, but i would also suspect, somewhere deep under there you actually respect the competition, and would rather narrowly beat your arch rivals than romp home against a bunch of nobodies

Hate should reserved for murderers, genocidal dictators, paedophiles, investment bankers and the like

[Garry Walker]

Nonsense. This penalty is an embarrassment to F1. They were fighting for a position, Massa did not give any room and SB refused to back down. Isn`t this the point of F1? Now the stewards who have no racing experience and who are generally morons start penalizing drivers for it. Just simply awful.

The whole penalty giving system is really stupid. You have very inconsistant decisions and penalties for things that have always happened.
Last race there were 3 penalties. Two of them were 100% not worth of being penalized and one was barely (massa vs hamilton).

My dissapointment in F1 is getting bigger and bigger. Why watch artificial "racing"?

[Knock-on]

but in the interest of fairness, your view that Arrows hates Ferrari, is only that, your view, not fact. You may be able to back up your opinion with comments and posts that lend weight to your arguement, but its still not facts, still opinion.

and whilst you might disaggree with Arrows (regularly) its still very harsh to accuse people of hating someone. its only sport, we have favourites and we dislike some, often quite irrationally, but i would never say i that i hate a team, or driver. there are some that i enjoy seeing beaten, but thats not the same.

Arrows, IMO, has never spoken out against Ferrari, any stronger than you have about McLaren or Hamilton, and whilst your opinions are well documented here, i don't think you hate either. you may have no respect for them and may love to see them fail or beaten, especially by your team, thats about being a fan, but i would also suspect, somewhere deep under there you actually respect the competition, and would rather narrowly beat your arch rivals than romp home against a bunch of nobodies

Hate should reserved for murderers, genocidal dictators, paedophiles, investment bankers and the like

Ahhh, a voice of reason. :up:

I dislike using the word hate on here. It just seems so OTT.

Can we please leave the word out and not use it to make attacks on people as personally I find it distastefull to say the least.

[Bagwan]

Bag all fair if this ""controlled" area" no racing rule exist. I combed the sporting regs yesterday and the only mention of the line in question is related to SC car periods and what cars can pass what cars when entering and exiting the pit during a SC. The longitudinal line is not allowed to be crossed when exiting the pit, the transverse line (at the end of the longitudinal line) only comes into effect when the SC is deployed. So I can't believe that Bourdais was not allowed to race.

So again I believe this means Bourdais and Massa were allowed space to race into and out of turn 1.

I guess , in a way , it comes down to common sense .
Why is the blend line there in the first place ?

It is a line that the drivers on one side cannot cross .

Is it not obvious that this is to counter the idea of someone with lesser speed sliding in , in front of a car on track at a much higher rate ?
As such , would it not make sense then that , had Bourdais gotten to the end of that blend line before Massa , he would have been perfectly within his rights to take the corner as he saw fit ?
He certainly was not within his rights to move over in front of Felipe before the end , and the perpendicular line at the end shows us clearly that Felipe reached that line first .

The exit of the pits gives the inside to the exitting driver , and Bourdais was able to hold Massa out with less speed , even though Felipe had just completed his fastest lap of the race .
This is a recipe for disaster .

[Bagwan]

I can just say that I would love to have raced with you guys who think Seb was wrong. I would have had a puntfest with you guys!!

What ?
The Tucson wrangler's too old to race ?

You'd be roped and tied before the first corner , cowpoke .
Both you and pouty Sebastion .

[ioan]

Prove it. None of the evidence presented so far corroborates your claim. Since I won't hold my breath on your providing any evidence to support your claim does anyone else have a good picture of this apparently 50/50 track split?

Open your eyes man, the pictures tell the whole story, if you want to see it, but that's another story and you are unrecoverable IMO.

[ioan]

Their still trying to download it from Ioans imagination :D

Really? How funny you are, NOT!

[ioan]

but in the interest of fairness, your view that Arrows hates Ferrari, is only that, your view, not fact. You may be able to back up your opinion with comments and posts that lend weight to your arguement, but its still not facts, still opinion.

and whilst you might disaggree with Arrows (regularly) its still very harsh to accuse people of hating someone. its only sport, we have favourites and we dislike some, often quite irrationally, but i would never say i that i hate a team, or driver. there are some that i enjoy seeing beaten, but thats not the same.

Arrows, IMO, has never spoken out against Ferrari, any stronger than you have about McLaren or Hamilton, and whilst your opinions are well documented here, i don't think you hate either. you may have no respect for them and may love to see them fail or beaten, especially by your team, thats about being a fan, but i would also suspect, somewhere deep under there you actually respect the competition, and would rather narrowly beat your arch rivals than romp home against a bunch of nobodies

Hate should reserved for murderers, genocidal dictators, paedophiles, investment bankers and the like

Sorry but Arrows should be mature enough to take on the chin after all his posts against Ferrari since the spygate started.
If he doesn't well he's got a problem, he's not able to own up to his own actions, and that is sad.

[ioan]

Nonsense. This penalty is an embarrassment to F1. They were fighting for a position, Massa did not give any room and SB refused to back down. Isn`t this the point of F1? Now the stewards who have no racing experience and who are generally morons start penalizing drivers for it. Just simply awful.

The whole penalty giving system is really stupid. You have very inconsistant decisions and penalties for things that have always happened.
Last race there were 3 penalties. Two of them were 100% not worth of being penalized and one was barely (massa vs hamilton).

My dissapointment in F1 is getting bigger and bigger. Why watch artificial "racing"?

Penalties are handed out way to easily these days, it improves the show by adding an element of unpredictability. I sure am not for this, but I bet the shows sells better in this shape.

[ArrowsFA1]

Sorry but Arrows should be mature enough to take on the chin after all his posts against Ferrari since the spygate started.
If he doesn't well he's got a problem, he's not able to own up to his own actions, and that is sad.
Oh, I take it on the chin alright. It's part and parcel of being part of a forum like this, and I've been here long enough to know that :s mokin: But the use of "hate" angers me. I don't "hate" anyone, least of all an F1 team :laugh: I know what I feel towards Ferrari ioan, and it's not "hate" by any stretch of the imagination so you're absolutely wrong about that.

[CaptainRaiden]

Penalties are handed out way to easily these days, it improves the show by adding an element of unpredictability. I sure am not for this, but I bet the shows sells better in this shape.

So, now you're trying to defend the inane penalties? It improves the "show"?? Ah, the death of racing.

Massa better win this championship, or else he'll be known as the guy who couldn't do it even with the help of the trigger happy FIA officials, because they were trying to sell more tickets and improve the "show" by handing out ridiculously absurd penalties.

[ioan]

Oh, I take it on the chin alright. It's part and parcel of being part of a forum like this, and I've been here long enough to know that :s mokin: But the use of "hate" angers me. I don't "hate" anyone, least of all an F1 team :laugh: I know what I feel towards Ferrari ioan, and it's not "hate" by any stretch of the imagination so you're absolutely wrong about that.

I really hope you know what you say and it's true. :)

[ioan]

Penalties are handed out way to easily these days, it improves the show by adding an element of unpredictability. I sure am not for this, but I bet the shows sells better in this shape.
So, now you're trying to defend the inane penalties? It improves the "show"?? Ah, the death of racing.

What part of:

I sure am not for this...
you don't understand? :rolleyes:



Massa better win this championship, or else he'll be known as the guy who couldn't do it even with the help of the trigger happy FIA officials, because they were trying to sell more tickets and improve the "show" by handing out ridiculously absurd penalties.

Let's see, wow even Massa was punished, several times this season, so just cut the crap, will ya?!

[tintop]

I can just say that I would love to have raced with you guys who think Seb was wrong. I would have had a puntfest with you guys!!

Of course Seb would have been right in every other road racing series on the planet - in fact, he was in the right according to F1 regulations as well, but that is besides the point.

[Wilderness]

Wow, it's exchanges like these I no longer visit this forum or watch F1 as it's become just another NA$CAR. No thank you.

[jjanicke]

Nonsense. This penalty is an embarrassment to F1. They were fighting for a position, Massa did not give any room and SB refused to back down. Isn`t this the point of F1? Now the stewards who have no racing experience and who are generally morons start penalizing drivers for it. Just simply awful.

The whole penalty giving system is really stupid. You have very inconsistant decisions and penalties for things that have always happened.
Last race there were 3 penalties. Two of them were 100% not worth of being penalized and one was barely (massa vs hamilton).

My dissapointment in F1 is getting bigger and bigger. Why watch artificial "racing"?

GW and I agree (for once)!!! :)

[BDunnell]

Wow, it's exchanges like these I no longer visit this forum...

Me too — which makes me a hypocrite for breaking my own rule.

Seriously, this forum is becoming increasingly unreadable by anyone who is a genuine F1 enthusiast, and I think it's a great shame.

[jjanicke]

Open your eyes man, the pictures tell the whole story, if you want to see it, but that's another story and you are unrecoverable IMO.

For some reason you are the only one that sees a picture where MAS has half the available track and BOU has half the available track.

The picture I see is MAS trying to apex without regard for BOU. I suspect I'm not the only one with that opinion.

Regardless my position has nothing to do with MAS. I feel this was a racing incident. BOU had every right to race for the position. There was no need for a penalty. HAM and MAS penalty's were warranted under the regulations. BOU's wasn't.

[jjanicke]

I guess , in a way , it comes down to common sense .
Why is the blend line there in the first place ?

It is a line that the drivers on one side cannot cross .

Is it not obvious that this is to counter the idea of someone with lesser speed sliding in , in front of a car on track at a much higher rate ?
As such , would it not make sense then that , had Bourdais gotten to the end of that blend line before Massa , he would have been perfectly within his rights to take the corner as he saw fit ?
He certainly was not within his rights to move over in front of Felipe before the end , and the perpendicular line at the end shows us clearly that Felipe reached that line first .

The exit of the pits gives the inside to the exitting driver , and Bourdais was able to hold Massa out with less speed , even though Felipe had just completed his fastest lap of the race .
This is a recipe for disaster .

Let me ask you this. Had BOU and MAS been in the exact same position entering the turn without BOU having just pitted, what would your opinion of the penalty be? Racing incident? Avoidable collision? Ultimately I see this as the crux of our disagreement. Are there different rules for a driver on track after exiting the pit vs. a driver on track.

If racing incident, then why is it any different (in accordance with the regulations) that BOU was entering from a pit stop? There are no rules that limit a drivers ability to race when exiting the pit. Their only limit is what part of the track they are allowed to use for racing.

[jjanicke]

Let's see, wow even Massa was punished, several times this season, so just cut the crap, will ya?!

When did MAS receive a questionable penalty?

[schmenke]

Penalties are handed out way to easily these days, it improves the show by adding an element of unpredictability. I sure am not for this, but I bet the shows sells better in this shape.

I don't want to see a "show"; I want to see a race :dozey:

[jas123f1]

Wow, it's exchanges like these I no longer visit this forum or watch F1 as it's become just another NA$CAR. No thank you.

Really :D Are you sure that you don't visit this forum ...

[Bagwan]

Let me ask you this. Had BOU and MAS been in the exact same position entering the turn without BOU having just pitted, what would your opinion of the penalty be? Racing incident? Avoidable collision? Ultimately I see this as the crux of our disagreement. Are there different rules for a driver on track after exiting the pit vs. a driver on track.

If racing incident, then why is it any different (in accordance with the regulations) that BOU was entering from a pit stop? There are no rules that limit a drivers ability to race when exiting the pit. Their only limit is what part of the track they are allowed to use for racing.

If there was no pit , he would be free to race , as I think the stewards saw it .
If Bourdais slid out , and Massa pinched , it has to go down as racing incident .
Bourdais slid , and Massa pinched , so both were at fault , but Massa seemed to expect him to back out , which is consistent with him feeling he had the right of way , which seems to be consistent with the way the stewards saw it .

[ShiftingGears]

Does anyone on this forum think that, Massa's or Bourdais' fault or not, there should've been a penalty handed out for this racing incident?

[Mickey T]

It was a discussion on what a driver should do when shown a Blue flag.

I pointed out that it was different between practice and the race and you disagreed saying that it was the same.

I posted the regulations and you maintained that you stand by your opinion meaning you dispute the regulations.

Just to refresh your memory:

From this thread:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128769&highlight=blue+flag

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514324&postcount=39

ioan

The blue flags mean that a driver that is being lapped has to get off the racing line, not to lift on the racing line.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514335&postcount=41

Knockie

Wrong again.

During practice, it means to give way.

In the race, it is to allow someone to pass at the earliest moment.

You do not have to move off the racing line but merely let them pass.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514343&postcount=42

Ioan

It means the same thing during practice and during race.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514349&postcount=43

Knockie

Stop talking rubbish.

Find the regulations at http://www.fia.com

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514359&postcount=44

Knockie



http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514415&postcount=45

ioan

I stay by my opinion, it means he has to move of the racing line as soon ASAP, not to slow down, thus the use of the word "opportunity".
I hate it when English speakers don't (or don't want to) understand their own language.

---------------------------------------------------------------

You were incorrect in the use of the flags and when I posted that they have 2 different used you stuck with your opinion even though I posted the FIA regulations that you were wrong.

It’s called facts ioan, something you seem to have very little grasp of.

if ioan's true to form, expect him to keep tossing out snide, illogical, desperately parrying retorts to others while ignoring the facts you've contained.

by ignoring you, he can carry on with his signature that he backs his opinions up.

but you, and everybody else, should know this by now.

i might be mistaken (and i'll stick my hand up if i am) but didn't ioan complain about montoya dangerously passing schumacher around the outside once?

[jjanicke]

Does anyone on this forum think that, Massa's or Bourdais' fault or not, there should've been a penalty handed out for this racing incident?

I don't think there should have been a penalty.

[ShiftingGears]

Nonsense. This penalty is an embarrassment to F1. They were fighting for a position, Massa did not give any room and SB refused to back down. Isn`t this the point of F1? Now the stewards who have no racing experience and who are generally morons start penalizing drivers for it. Just simply awful.

The whole penalty giving system is really stupid. You have very inconsistant decisions and penalties for things that have always happened.
Last race there were 3 penalties. Two of them were 100% not worth of being penalized and one was barely (massa vs hamilton).

My dissapointment in F1 is getting bigger and bigger. Why watch artificial "racing"?

Totally agreed.

F1 has been the victim of its own dumb rules, and certain mediocre stewards.

Shame, because otherwise it's been a great season.

[jjanicke]

if ioan's true to form, expect him to keep tossing out snide, illogical, desperately parrying retorts to others while ignoring the facts you've contained.

by ignoring you, he can carry on with his signature that he backs his opinions up.

but you, and everybody else, should know this by now.

i might be mistaken (and i'll stick my hand up if i am) but didn't ioan complain about montoya dangerously passing schumacher around the outside once?

Love it. You wouldn't happen to be talking about this move? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giZu7-A2yS0

:)

[gloomyDAY]

You can actually see Felipe turn into Bourdais in this footage.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

[Easy Drifter]

Thankfully the Chinese Gp is only a few days away and the totally incompentent stewards will give us something new to fight about. It has gone past sensible arguing.
In my useless opinion as a former marshall, steward, senior race official and a 10 year professional driver it was a FREAKING NORMAL RACING INCIDENT.
Sorry (no I am not) for shouting.

[CCWS77]

Seriously, this forum is becoming increasingly unreadable by anyone who is a genuine F1 enthusiast, and I think it's a great shame.

The forum is just a refelection of the nonsense that is F1.


Interesting that everyone who likes the penalty justifies it by inventing reasons which say Bourdais was not allowed to race for one reason or another. Firstly, such rules don't seem to actually exist in the rulebook. Second, even if they do, that is an indictment of the bad governance of F1 that opposess actual on track racing. Third, even if the rules do exist and are okay and so Bourdais was not allowed to race and should have yielded, he still did nothing wrong since every photo clearly shows him on the right third of the track leaving 2/3 on the left for Massa.

[tintop]

The forum is just a refelection of the nonsense that is F1.


Interesting that everyone who likes the penalty justifies it by inventing reasons which say Bourdais was not allowed to race for one reason or another. Firstly, such rules don't seem to actually exist in the rulebook. Second, even if they do, that is an indictment of the bad governance of F1 that opposess actual on track racing. Third, even if the rules do exist and are okay and so Bourdais was not allowed to race and should have yielded, he still did nothing wrong since every photo clearly shows him on the right third of the track leaving 2/3 on the left for Massa.

The argument for the penalty is ridiculous and 95% of the people on the thread agree with you, as do the teams etc. Some people just can't stand the truth and will twist and contort an uncomfortable argument to suit their "perspective".

[ioan]

I don't want to see a "show"; I want to see a race :dozey:

I'm with you on this one. Someone should sack Bernie and than Max. Not easy at all, even impossible!

[ioan]

if ioan's true to form, expect him to keep tossing out snide, illogical, desperately parrying retorts to others while ignoring the facts you've contained.

by ignoring you, he can carry on with his signature that he backs his opinions up.

but you, and everybody else, should know this by now.

i might be mistaken (and i'll stick my hand up if i am) but didn't ioan complain about montoya dangerously passing schumacher around the outside once?

Go ahead, post personal attacks, that's all you know.

[ioan]

The argument for the penalty is ridiculous and 95% of the people on the thread agree with you, as do the teams etc.

I didn't read any comments where the teams say that Bourdais was unfairly punished. You seem good at making up things.

[Dave B]

I didn't read any comments where the teams say that Bourdais was unfairly punished. You seem good at making up things.

James Allen said in his ITV column (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254) words to the effect that the overwhelming majority of people he spoke to in the paddock disagreed with the penalty - page isn't loading for me at the moment so I can't quote his exact words yet.

[ArrowsFA1]

I didn't read any comments where the teams say that Bourdais was unfairly punished. You seem good at making up things.
Nick Heidfeld:

"I did not see the race in full, I only saw the highlights quickly afterwards, but the one on the start with (Lewis) Hamilton was for me not worth a penalty at all. It is just racing. What did he do (wrong)?
"The other one with (Sebastien) Bourdais was also not understandable. The one that is acceptable, maybe arguable, but you can at least follow what they may be thinking, is the one that (Felipe) Massa got for turning around Hamilton. In my view it does not need to be given, but okay it could be. The other two I don't understand."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71423

[ArrowsFA1]

James Allen said in his ITV column (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254) words to the effect that the overwhelming majority of people he spoke to in the paddock disagreed with the penalty - page isn't loading for me at the moment so I can't quote his exact words yet.

Of the professionals I quizzed at the track, 99% were saying that this was in no way an offence by Bourdais – but it gives Massa another vital point in the championship, to go with the six he gained at Spa.
He also says:
the team managers I spoke to after the race all said that FIA race director Charlie Whiting had briefed them in Singapore and again in Fuji that the car exiting the pits has right of way. So once again, the stewards have gone against the advice Charlie has issued to teams...If the teams cannot believe the race director, what hope have the rest of us and the wider public got? The FIA styles itself as the referee in this sport, but surely it cannot afford to keep sending out such mixed messages.

[Dave B]

I've got the quotes from James' article (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254): (edit: and note that Arrows beat me to it!)


He might argue that he had his front wheels in front, but the team managers I spoke to after the race all said that FIA race director Charlie Whiting had briefed them in Singapore and again in Fuji that the car exiting the pits has right of way.



Of the professionals I quizzed at the track, 99% were saying that this was in no way an offence by Bourdais – but it gives Massa another vital point in the championship, to go with the six he gained at Spa.


I still maintain that even though it was Massa's fault, neither driver should have been punished as it was a racing incident, the like of which we've seen many many times before.

[ArrowsFA1]

Sorry Dave, we must have been reading & posting at the same time :p

[fizzicist]

Go ahead, post personal attacks, that's all you know.

QED...

[CaptainRaiden]

What part of:

you don't understand? :rolleyes:

The part where you call it a show. You say you're not for these penalties being handed out to improve the "show", but you find it easy to agree with the stupid and ridiculous Bourdais penalty, just because that helps your favorite driver gain some extra cheap points?? Isn't that a wee bit contradicting? :rolleyes:

Also, where is this two cars length of track that you keep saying Bourdais has? What about the 20 cars length of track available to Massa's left? Oh yeah, I can exaggerate too.


Let's see, wow even Massa was punished, several times this season, so just cut the crap, will ya?!

When were the other penalties handed several times to Felipe Massa this season Ioan?

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm with you on this one. Someone should sack Bernie and than Max. Not easy at all, even impossible!

And hire who? Jean Todt?

[PolePosition_1]

Ah , Davy , didn't realize you were so sensitive .

It might be a minority opinion , but I believe it to be based on fact .
I believe it to be what closed the case for the stewards in the situation .

The minority can be in the right , you know .

You may consider it as facts. But majority of people don't, and considering there isn't a rule in the rulebook with regards to who crossed the line first, I'd say its subjective.

[PolePosition_1]

The problem at hand is much bigger than just this penalty. HAM's penalty for pushing KOV and RAI wide is clear. MAS's penalty for punting HAM from way back is clear. BOU's penalty makes no sense and has the potential the change the entire game of F1. Absolutely no more passing because of the potential of penalty if you touch, ridiculous!!!

If you start calling foul when no foul was committed the sport will die. The stewards got penalty happy, and it shows. F1 needs better stewardship, as has been evident at several events this year. Perhaps they should have 2 full time stewards and 1 local guest steward. But guest stewards at each event does not allow for consistent regulation.

Huh? How can you call Hamilton's penalty clear? That has no precedent or common sense. Later in the race we saw Kubica force Kimi onto the run off area, didn't see a penalty then. In majority of previous GP we see drivers being forced wide, no penalty then. In Japan, we saw Heikki touch Kimi, we saw Nakijyma (can't spell) break DC suspension, no penalty.

[truefan72]

If one were to be cynical, one could suggest that they were waiting to see if a penalty would benefit Massa, on this occasion it did and a penalty was applied.

As I say, one would need to be very cynical to suggest such a thing.


In truth they most likely felt that 20 minutes was insufficient time to properly evaluate the incident.

yeah which in it of itself is a complete failing of the stewards.

You are running a race under 120 minutes and 64 laps, it should not take 16 laps/26 minutes to analyze a situation given all of the data, technology and most obviously their own eyes/video available. The decision should come down within 3 laps of the incident.

The only time they feel they can't adjudicate a stop/go penalty or 10sec penalty is if the race is under 5 laps per their own bloody regs. So according to them it takes about 5 laps to figure out the penalty. In this case they couldn't get it done within 16 laps or even an hour after the race, meaning it practically took them an entire race to figure out the penalty.

Just on sheer incompetents alone, these stewards should be fired.

The second level of absurdity was to wait till after the race to hand out what everyone though was going to be a penalty to massa. Giving him a chance to race, and actually commit another infraction; gaining an unfair advantage driving outside the designated circuit in the Webber incident ( pushed or not pushed, that didn't matter in their Spa decision). everyone pretty much thought that it was going to be a massa penalty without taking away his points ( which would have been bad enough)

The third level of utter madness was to actually penalize the victim for the audacity of holding his line and having a ferrari crash into you recklessly. As if to intimate that being involved in an incident with a ferrari be it your fault or not, you will get penalized. As was the phantom call on LH at the start to try and even out the damage.

complete and utter nonsense

btw I'm surprised that ioan didn't know the difference between the flashing blue lights in the pits and blue flags waived by marshals.

If he really didn't know about that then that's really odd for someone who espouses an air of virtuosity in terms of regs etc. It's one of the easier aspects of F1 racing to understand.

But if he does know the difference but chooses to engage in an argument all to vindicate his fav driver then that's even more sad.

had to remove him from my ignore list for these thread pages just to see it for myself exactly what he's been arguing about. oh well...

[PolePosition_1]

"FIA race director Charlie Whiting had briefed them in Singapore and again in Fuji that the car exiting the pits has right of way.

So once again, the stewards have gone against the advice Charlie has issued to teams, as they did with the penalty for Hamilton in Spa (where Whiting had told McLaren he thought Hamilton had acted fairly).

If the teams cannot believe the race director, what hope have the rest of us and the wider public got?

The FIA styles itself as the referee in this sport, but surely it cannot afford to keep sending out such mixed messages.

It confuses the public and makes some of them think that these things are being done for Ferrari’s benefit.

Of the professionals I quizzed at the track, 99% were saying that this was in no way an offence by Bourdais – but it gives Massa another vital point in the championship, to go with the six he gained at Spa.

And like Hamilton’s penalty at Spa, this one cannot be appealed as it was a 25-second penalty added to race time, in lieu of a drive-through during the race.

But the incident happened on lap 51, some 16 laps from the end. The stewards had 20 minutes to consider their verdict.

Ironically it took them only 15 laps to award the penalties for Hamilton and Massa at the start, so they could have arrived at a conclusion before the end of the race."

Wise words by Mr James Allen for once

[truefan72]

Huh? How can you call Hamilton's penalty clear? That has no precedent or common sense. Later in the race we saw Kubica force Kimi onto the run off area, didn't see a penalty then. In majority of previous GP we see drivers being forced wide, no penalty then. In Japan, we saw Heikki touch Kimi, we saw Nakijyma (can't spell) break DC suspension, no penalty.

:up:

[Robinho]

If there was no pit , he would be free to race , as I think the stewards saw it .
If Bourdais slid out , and Massa pinched , it has to go down as racing incident .
Bourdais slid , and Massa pinched , so both were at fault , but Massa seemed to expect him to back out , which is consistent with him feeling he had the right of way , which seems to be consistent with the way the stewards saw it .


which flys in the face of the race dircetors advice, that cars leaving the pits have the right of way

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/170462-0/bourdais_fuji_penalty_against_fia_advice.html

all of which still leaves me in the "not enough evidence either way" camp. too much doubt to start handing out penalties here.

[Mickey T]

Go ahead, post personal attacks, that's all you know.

ok, back that up with evidence, as per you sig. otherwise, you're reinforcing my comment.

and, while you're at it, refute the detailed argument i was talking about.

[ArrowsFA1]

An intriguing snippet from Adam Cooper's article (http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1812) on Autosport this week:

Bourdais is managed by Nicolas Todt, as is of course, Felipe Massa. The suggestion was that Todt Jr had a quick word in the ear of his secondary driver who, in effect, took the rap so as to give his stablemate a helping hand. Is that how it really happened? It's hard to imagine, but if I told you who came up with that idea, you wouldn't believe me.
:crazy:

An intriguing snippet from Adam Cooper's article (http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1812) on Autosport this week:

:crazy:

Bollocks, and as usual it comes from the internal Mclaren magazine and Lewis fan-club known as Autosport.

Autosport, let us not forget, was the publication that white-washed over the Mclaren admission of guilt in December last year.

Scum with typewriters.

[woody2goody]

yeah which in it of itself is a complete failing of the stewards.

You are running a race under 120 minutes and 64 laps, it should not take 16 laps/26 minutes to analyze a situation given all of the data, technology and most obviously their own eyes/video available. The decision should come down within 3 laps of the incident.

The only time they feel they can't adjudicate a stop/go penalty or 10sec penalty is if the race is under 5 laps per their own bloody regs. So according to them it takes about 5 laps to figure out the penalty. In this case they couldn't get it done within 16 laps or even an hour after the race, meaning it practically took them an entire race to figure out the penalty.

Just on sheer incompetents alone, these stewards should be fired.

The second level of absurdity was to wait till after the race to hand out what everyone though was going to be a penalty to massa. Giving him a chance to race, and actually commit another infraction; gaining an unfair advantage driving outside the designated circuit in the Webber incident ( pushed or not pushed, that didn't matter in their Spa decision). everyone pretty much thought that it was going to be a massa penalty without taking away his points ( which would have been bad enough)

The third level of utter madness was to actually penalize the victim for the audacity of holding his line and having a ferrari crash into you recklessly. As if to intimate that being involved in an incident with a ferrari be it your fault or not, you will get penalized. As was the phantom call on LH at the start to try and even out the damage.

complete and utter nonsense

btw I'm surprised that ioan didn't know the difference between the flashing blue lights in the pits and blue flags waived by marshals.

If he really didn't know about that then that's really odd for someone who espouses an air of virtuosity in terms of regs etc. It's one of the easier aspects of F1 racing to understand.

But if he does know the difference but chooses to engage in an argument all to vindicate his fav driver then that's even more sad.

had to remove him from my ignore list for these thread pages just to see it for myself exactly what he's been arguing about. oh well...

Good post thumbs up to you my friend :)

An intriguing snippet from Adam Cooper's article (http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1812) on Autosport this week:

:crazy:

Bourdais was adamant that Massa was at fault for the incident.

"For me it's very clear. Yes, I exit the pits, yes I'm supposed to be careful and I was," he said. "I stayed inside and I didn't push him out, I didn't overshoot the corner.

"I did everything I could not to run into him and he just squeezed and turned and behaved like I didn't exist, like I wasn't there. What am I supposed to do?

"I've been in this position many, many times and I never had any incidents. It's just a little bit of respect, you give each other room and then everything goes right, but if you don't for sure it's going to be an incident."

The Frenchman added that he would have behaved differently to Massa had he been the one challenging for the title.

"I've been in this position many times, especially the position he is in fighting for championships and you just don't take unnecessary risks like this," said Bourdais.

"You've got everything to lose and nothing to gain. He was going to pit in three laps, I was ahead of him and he was going to finish behind us anyway. Why would you even think about doing something like that? I don't understand."

Despite feeling he was blameless in the incident, Bourdais wasn't surprised to receive a penalty.

"No, because every time I get called to the (stewards) meeting rooms, one way or the other it goes against me," he said.

"I don't know why, I don't know what I've done. I don't think I have done anything wrong on this one and unfortunately it ruins the weekend, takes away three points for the team and gives Felipe another point - I am really happy for him, obviously!

"I don't know what I was supposed to do basically. I could have unrolled the red carpet and given him the corner. That is the only thing I could have done."

Yep, really sounds like Bourdais taking the wrap. Not.

[Daniel]

Hey dude don't poke holes in people's flimsy conspiracy theories please.

[ioan]

I see that the horde got to the point where they are taking James Allen's articles as base for what the stewards should do. :laugh:

You know what I think of James Allen? Than you know what I think of theories based on his words! :rotflmao:

Cheers! :D

[schmenke]

..... which is consistent with him feeling he had the right of way ..

"right of way..."? I thought they were racing. :mark: Perhaps the FIA should next consider placing traffic signs on the circuits...

[PolePosition_1]

I see that the horde got to the point where they are taking James Allen's articles as base for what the stewards should do. :laugh:

You know what I think of James Allen? Than you know what I think of theories based on his words! :rotflmao:

Cheers! :D

Ioan, it could just be that I'm not biased. Just because I don't like James Allen, it doesn't mean I'm going to disagree with him just because its him saying it. If I think he's wrong, I'll say he is wrong, if I think he is right, I will say so.

Maybe you should try going for a neutral approach and putting personal feelings a side :)

[Dave B]

I see that the horde got to the point where they are taking James Allen's articles as base for what the stewards should do. :laugh:

You know what I think of James Allen? Than you know what I think of theories based on his words! :rotflmao:

Cheers! :D

Good grief. Do you remember asking:


I didn't read any comments where the teams say that Bourdais was unfairly punished. You seem good at making up things.

Arrows and myself provided the link to Allen's article as a credible source that there was in fact such an opinion in the paddock. That's the only reason it was posted, in direct response to a question which you asked - after accusing another member of making things up.

Now that you've been proved wrong - yet again - don't go twisting events to suit your own agenda.

[ArrowsFA1]

I see that the horde got to the point where they are taking James Allen's articles as base for what the stewards should do. :laugh:
Allen, like Adam Cooper, is reporting what he was told.

[PolePosition_1]

Arrows and myself provided the link to Allen's article as a credible source that there was in fact such an opinion in the paddock.

DC is also baffled as to why Bourdais was penalised.

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=David_Coulthard&id=44285

"The penalty that particularly mystified me was the Sebastien Bourdais one.

I saw his pit exit collision with Felipe Massa as a standard racing one. Sebastien had every right to be there, every right to be defending his position.

I think we need more transparency in some of these decisions, more explanations as to the reasons for the penalties."

[fizzicist]

James Allen may be an irritating commentator, with an appalling line in banter but read a few of the biographies he's written and the autobiographies he's ghost written.

He knows his stuff.

[Dave B]

So if I'm counting correctly, the following have so far publicly said they feel the penalty was wrong or at least questionable:

Jackie Stewart
Niki Lauda

David Coulthard (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=David_Coulthard&id=44285)
Nick Heidfeld (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71423)
Mark Webber (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71436)

And according to James Allen, 99% of the paddock (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254)

Plus we've got drivers like Button, Alonso, Hakkinen, Heidfeld and Raikkonen calling for an overhaul of the way penalties are judged.

Anybody want to stick up for the FIA?

[tintop]

I didn't read any comments where the teams say that Bourdais was unfairly punished. You seem good at making up things.

Oops, another swing and a miss for you, kind of like "cars exiting from the pits never have the right of way", and confusion with all things blue. ;)

[jjanicke]

Huh? How can you call Hamilton's penalty clear? That has no precedent or common sense. Later in the race we saw Kubica force Kimi onto the run off area, didn't see a penalty then. In majority of previous GP we see drivers being forced wide, no penalty then. In Japan, we saw Heikki touch Kimi, we saw Nakijyma (can't spell) break DC suspension, no penalty.

Section 16.1 of the sporting regs: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 5-2008.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf)

16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by
any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to
the race director for investigation) which :
- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.
Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving
more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

Granted I wouldn't have expected a penalty for HAM turn 1 incident, but the regs do provision for it, unlike BOU incident.

[jjanicke]

I see that the horde got to the point where they are taking James Allen's articles as base for what the stewards should do. :laugh:

You know what I think of James Allen? Than you know what I think of theories based on his words! :rotflmao:

Cheers! :D

What about all the other non-James Allen point of views? You focus on one when many were provided. Weak, very weak! Imagine going to court with this type of argument. Ouch!!!

[woody2goody]

Plus we've got drivers like Button, Alonso, Hakkinen, Heidfeld and Raikkonen calling for an overhaul of the way penalties are judged.

Anybody want to stick up for the FIA?

You'd find it hard to get many more respected drivers than these. It proves that the drivers want to race. They don't want racing incidents penalised because they know that those things usually even themselves out during a season.

Also Nakajima hit Alonso in Valencia, Hamilton hit Alonso in Bahrain, Kubica forced Kimi off at Fuji, Hamilton forced Glock off in Italy.

Think about if the new tendancy to be penalty-happy had been around a few years ago. We wouldn't have had great scraps between Coulthard/Schumacher, Schumacher/Wurz, Montoya/Schumacher, Kubica/Massa.

[MrJan]

Anybody want to stick up for the FIA?

The name's Ioan :D

Never have I known anyone with their head so deep in the sand, he's like the anti-Knockie :p : Anyone who defend's a McLaren driver is automatically a huge McLaren fan who know nothing about the sport yet anyone who defends a Ferrari driver is a decent chap and clearly knows his stuff.

As for the incident, I think that Seb perhaps had a little slide due to cold tyres and clipping the kerb but there was nothing dangerous or intentful in it and basically a racing incident. In hindsight I think that Massa might wish that he'd not taken the line so much and allowed a little space, Bourdais was never going to stay in front for more than a lap. To give any kind of penalty for this incident is, IMO, crazy.

[Easy Drifter]

Don't worry. Once Jean Todt relaces Mad Max and TGF is brought in as new Race Director and chief and only steward any car that gets within 10 metres of a Ferrari will receive a 30 second stop and go and if it happens a second time the driver will be banned for 1 year. :vader:

[jjanicke]

The name's Ioan :D

Never have I known anyone with their head so deep in the sand, he's like the anti-Knockie :p : Anyone who defend's a McLaren driver is automatically a huge McLaren fan who know nothing about the sport yet anyone who defends a Ferrari driver is a decent chap and clearly knows his stuff.

As for the incident, I think that Seb perhaps had a little slide due to cold tyres and clipping the kerb but there was nothing dangerous or intentful in it and basically a racing incident. In hindsight I think that Massa might wish that he'd not taken the line so much and allowed a little space, Bourdais was never going to stay in front for more than a lap. To give any kind of penalty for this incident is, IMO, crazy.

Couldn't agree with you more, other than MAS ultimately didn't stand a chance to stay ahead of BOU (as he still had to pit once more) and therefore compromised is his race with the inadvertent collision. And In hindsight MAS is glad that he came down on BOU, and BOU got the penalty, otherwise he would be 6 pts behind HAM and not 5.

[jjanicke]

Don't worry. Once Jean Todt relaces Mad Max and TGF is brought in as new Race Director and chief and only steward any car that gets within 10 metres of a Ferrari will receive a 30 second stop and go and if it happens a second time the driver will be banned for 1 year. :vader:

I know you're joking. But seriously Todt might not be a bad replacement for Mad Max. Love him or "hate" ;) him, Todt did everything he could to protect and advance his organization while running Ferrari F1. If he takes the same attitude to running the FIA and F1, it very well could be a fantastic turn around for the better.

[janneppi]

You know what, I'm done with this thread, new race this weekend, don't wan't to have these silly threads to crowd the new silly threads. Sorry for those who had a meaningful discussion hidden here, but most of this is just ridiculous repetition of of the same arguments and old grievances.