Ugh...Lewis!?

[Areez2006]

Okay, I can understand that Massa caused the spin, but the entire situation could have been avoided. I mean the aggressive first corner move was unwarranted, and he could have probably regained the lead later or on the next lap. Did that entire pre-race meeting Ron was talking about go entirely out of his ear? All he has to do is finish behind Massa. But either way, the only positive I can see coming from this is that he HAS to learn a lesson from this. Please, just bring the car home in China and Brazil...

[ShiftingGears]

Well, the only thing he needed to do was to not do anything stupid, and, well, he did.

[F1boat]

Lewis is too aggressive. Got what he deserved.

[ArrowsFA1]

...But either way, the only positive I can see coming from this is that he HAS to learn a lesson from this. Please, just bring the car home in China and Brazil...
I agree :up: It's not a time for 'win or bust' because as we saw today it was bust! I admire Hamilton's desire to win races but with the championship at stake he needs to learn when it's time to take the points on offer.

[christophulus]

Perhaps it's good in a way that Hamilton had this experience today - he didn't lose out too much, and it might just put him in the right frame of mind for the final races

[F1boat]

I agree :up: It's not a time for 'win or bust' because as we saw today it was bust! I admire Hamilton's desire to win races but with the championship at stake he needs to learn when it's time to take the points on offer.

I fail to understand Hamilton. He was so calm and smart in Singapore and today was idiotic. He IS very young and will mature with time, BUT McLaren obviously prefered him to Fred as their top-driver AND he has to deliver. You know, I CAN see Kubica winning this championship...

[F1boat]

Perhaps it's good in a way that Hamilton had this experience today - he didn't lose out too much, and it might just put him in the right frame of mind for the final races

Yes, maybe. He has to.

[ArrowsFA1]

He IS very young and will mature with time...
I think this is often forgotten, or ignored. Aside from how/why he found himself at McLaren he very quickly became a race winner then WDC challenger. At no time has he been out of the spotlight. He still has a lot to learn, but he is learning right at the very front of the grid where his every move is scrutinised and judged. Ok, so he's in a top team so should expect that, but that doesn't alter the fact he's only in his second season.

Sometimes, given some of the comments you see, you'd think that he's a seasoned veteran with numerous WDC wins behind him.

That doesn't excuse the kind of error he made today, but it does perhaps go some way to explaining it.

[Lalo]

I couldn't stop cheering Massa when he made Hamilton spin. He got what he deserved.

My question is: would have Hamilton had to make the drive-through penalty without the incident in the chicane? Remember he previously pulled Kimi off the track on turn one.

Well done, Felipe!!

[christophulus]

He still has a lot to learn, but he is learning right at the very front of the grid where his every move is scrutinised and judged. Ok, so he's in a top team so should expect that, but that doesn't alter the fact he's only in his second season.

Sometimes, given some of the comments you see, you'd think that he's a seasoned veteran with numerous WDC wins behind him.

That doesn't excuse the kind of error he made today, but it does perhaps go some way to explaining it.

It's refreshing to see someone being less harsh on Hamilton without blindly supporting everything he does, yes he makes mistakes but he is only young.

To put it in perspective, let's not forget that Massa has been in F1 continually since 2004, has been personally "tutored" (of sorts) by Schumacher and still has some pretty questionable races.

[rublazar2]

We must not forget he did the best move of the race: just in the last lap, overtaking Fernando.....

[Lalo]

We must not forget he did the best move of the race: just in the last lap, overtaking Fernando.....

Fernando was goo leting Hamilton go ahead of him. All Alonso didn't need was another incident, and knowing the englishman...

[F1boat]

We must not forget he did the best move of the race: just in the last lap, overtaking Fernando.....

this was extremely childish IMO.

[christophulus]

this was extremely childish IMO.

Quite sensible actually. If someone had retired on the last lap, Hamilton would only move up the order (and claim the points) if he was on the same lap as the leader.

[F1boat]

He was, what 12th? It was dangerous to Fernando! But the Spaniard fortunately is too smart to accept such petty games.

[ioan]

We must not forget he did the best move of the race: just in the last lap, overtaking Fernando.....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
This comment is a killer!
:rotflmao:

And me thinking that Fernando was sorry for lewy so he let him unlap himself! :D

[jens]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but I would like to talk about another thing - I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I don't recall anybody ever getting penalized for running wide into a corner. This is puzzling and a hard one to understand. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.

It looks like FIA is starting to penalize driver errors. Well, I don't remember Räikkönen getting penalized for hitting Sutil at Monaco for one... DC should have got a racing ban a while ago. Etc.

Will FIA create a new rule that a driver isn't allowed to brake late, hence justifying the penalty on Lewis? (Like the Spa stuff). If we combine this to the ridiculous penalty offered to Bourdais, it's all looking weird, what's going on.

[ioan]

Quite sensible actually. If someone had retired on the last lap, Hamilton would only move up the order (and claim the points) if he was on the same lap as the leader.

FGS Fernando let him by in order to avoid any problems that might have been caused at that point by Lewy's overheated li'l brain.
And if he was 1 lap down he would still get points if in a point finishing position. ;)

[ioan]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but... I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I'm pretty sure nobody has ever got penalized for running wide in Turn1. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.

Will FIA create a new rule that a driver isn't allowed to brake late, hence justifying the penalty on Lewis? (Like the Spa stuff)

So, we should let stupidity ruin everyone's race from now on.
If you let such behavior unpunished it won't take too long before it becomes a habit.

[Valve Bounce]

Perhaps it's good in a way that Hamilton had this experience today - he didn't lose out too much, and it might just put him in the right frame of mind for the final races

Well, yes he did. Before today, all he had to do was finish ahead of Massa to be in a really strong position to win the WDC. By brawling with Kimi, and with Massa gaining 1 point today, now he must finish ahead of one of the Ferraris on the last two races to win the WDC.

[Dave B]

And if he was 1 lap down he would still get points if in a point finishing position. ;)
Yes, but he wasn't in a point-finishing position. By giving himself an extra lap he gave himself the admittedly slim chance of making up places if there were any incidents ahead of him.

[christophulus]

Well, yes he did. Before today, all he had to do was finish ahead of Massa to be in a really strong position to win the WDC. By brawling with Kimi, and with Massa gaining 1 point today, now he must finish ahead of one of the Ferraris on the last two races to win the WDC.

He did lose out, but if for example, Massa and Hamilton hadn't made contact, Hamilton would have got the drive through for turn 1 and finished out of the points, and Massa might have been top 3, so it could've been a lot worse for Hamilton than it is.


FGS Fernando let him by in order to avoid any problems that might have been caused at that point by Lewy's overheated li'l brain.
And if he was 1 lap down he would still get points if in a point finishing position.

You think Hamilton would have deliberately knocked Alonso off? At the rate the FIA are going they'd probably have given him a pretty severe penalty, not really worth it. I don't think there's much bad feeling between them at the moment.

Also, Hamilton would have finished the race having completed 66 laps if he'd stayed behind Alonso. The 11 drivers in front would have started lap 67. Even if they had all retired they'd still have completed more laps and thus earned the points.

[jens]

So, we should let stupidity ruin everyone's race from now on.
If you let such behavior unpunished it won't take too long before it becomes a habit.

Everyone has made stupidities. Several drivers should have got a race ban and a strip of superlicence by now if they were treated as strictly as Hamilton.

In the beginning of 2007 Sutil crashed into someone in Turn1 for the first three races in a row. Any penalties? I guess not. And this is just one example.

[woody2goody]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but I would like to talk about another thing - I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I don't recall anybody ever getting penalized for running wide into a corner. This is puzzling and a hard one to understand. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.

It looks like FIA is starting to penalize driver errors. Well, I don't remember Räikkönen getting penalized for hitting Sutil at Monaco for one... DC should have got a racing ban a while ago. Etc.

Will FIA create a new rule that a driver isn't allowed to brake late, hence justifying the penalty on Lewis? (Like the Spa stuff). If we combine this to the ridiculous penalty offered to Bourdais, it's all looking weird, what's going on.

It seems to me that soon we no-one will be able to do anything at the start of the race. All those who say Hamilton deserved the penalty know for a fact if it happened to their favourite drivers they would be furious.

He just locked his brakes up. He didn't hit anything or put anyone out of the race, or even cause any retirements at the back. And to be honest, even if he did he shouldn't receive a penalty.

Also, Bourdais' penalty after the finish was also ridiculous. You can't penalise anyone for that incident. It was just simply an accident. It seems to me that the FIA always think someone is to blame for every single incident/collision that takes place.

Bourdais took the inside line, he was a net 30 seconds in front of Felipe at the time, and Felipe misjudged the gap. He wasn't necessarily to blame but he could have given Seb a bit more room.

I can't imagine how the poor guy must feel. He was running 4th in Australia when the car let him down, he was 3rd in Belgium before a last lap downpour, he qualified 4th at Monza when his team-mate won the race, and now this!

Potentially that's 16 or 18 points he has lost this year.

Funny how Massa gained another point in the process, despite costing two drivers a large amount of points during the Grand Prix.

Well done to Alonso he drove brilliantly :)

[Bradley]

You think Hamilton would have deliberately knocked Alonso off?.

Not deliberately Alonso.

Hamilton deliberately knocks everybody off who happens to be in his nabourhood on the track ...

It becomes time that he gets bitten back, like today by Massa.

[F1boat]

You think Hamilton would have deliberately knocked Alonso off?

I don't know, maybe yes.

[donKey jote]

Not deliberately, no, but he was locking wheels all over the place so Alonso did the right thing: wave him past and stay out of potential trouble :)

[jens]

It seems to me that the FIA always think someone is to blame for every single incident/collision that takes place.

Well, it seems that Coulthard is an exception in the rule. His incidents are never even investigated! :p :

[christophulus]

(Do you think Hamilton would have knocked Alonso off?)

@Bradley and F1boat..

I very much doubt Hamilton would be that stupid. I get the feeling that the press has overstated the "rivalry" between these two. To suggest that he would deliberately have taken out Alonso is fairly cynical, not to mention very unfair. Hamilton isn't a dirty driver, aggressive yes, but he wouldn't do something like that.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

All these penalties dished out these days - it's laughable. Yes it was a dumb move by Hamilton but that's the nature of standing starts - they better begin every race under the safety car in future if they want to punish this sort of thing.

But even more laughable was Bourdais being penalised for exiting the pit lane. In years past nobody would have batted an eyelid at that - again it's the nature of the beast when timing brings about such a collision - but it's got to the point now where everything has to be 'investigated' and penalties levied for the slightest incident.

[ioan]

You think Hamilton would have deliberately knocked Alonso off? At the rate the FIA are going they'd probably have given him a pretty severe penalty, not really worth it. I don't think there's much bad feeling between them at the moment.

I think that Hamilton is such a stupid and unstable driver that Alonso did the most logical thing when, after seeing Lewis lining up for a pass, he just pulled over and let him go by.




Also, Hamilton would have finished the race having completed 66 laps if he'd stayed behind Alonso. The 11 drivers in front would have started lap 67. Even if they had all retired they'd still have completed more laps and thus earned the points.

Not sure I follow your logics there.
If another driver retired before the end of the last lap than they sure would only have had completed 66 laps, exactly like Hamy, and given that they retired they would have been classified behind the ones that actually finished the race, even if 1 lap down.

[Daniel]

Not deliberately, no, but he was locking wheels all over the place so Alonso did the right thing: wave him past and stay out of potential trouble :)

That's why Alonso has 2 titles already, would have had another if McLaren hadn't have put him out in the cold and could be a contender if his car was better earlier this year. The guy is a great driver and with a great car and team behind him he'll continue to do well for a long time.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Lewis doesn't seem to have the brains to be a consistent championship contender. When you think about it he should have already wrapped it up by now considering how bad the Ferrari's have been in the wet and how erratic Massa and Kimi have been at times but he just keeps on doing silly things and making needless mistakes. Sure the incident with Massa was mostly Massa's doing but a more complete driver wouldn't have given Massa the opportunity and that's where Fernando and Lewis differ.

It's the mark of this guy that when Louise "I'm a tactless moron" Goodman asked him if he was going to play it safe that he said he was going to go out and win. Lewis is a good driver, he's won races, he's won them convinvingly and there's no need for him to go out and prove anything. If he wins this title no one's going to think he's doing a Richard Burns and winning because others make mistakes. As a driver in the car banging in lap times I have huge amount of respect for him, but as a driver who has to make judgements in regards to passing other cars and pacing himself for the title he's probably got one of the worst heads on his shoulders that an F1 driver could have.

If Lewis goes out and does the bare minimum and wins by a point or two then I'll have a lot more respect for him. But if he goes out and needlessly wins races or pushes too hard regardless of whether he wins the title or not I really don't see Lewis ever becoming a complete driver who is able to win championships in dominant fashion. Sure he's young but he's pigheaded and just doesn't seem to learn and these aren't hard lessons in my view.

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis doesn't seem to have the brains to be a consistent championship contender.
Two years, twice in contention for the WDC might suggest otherwise :)

[Daniel]

Two years, twice in contention for the WDC might suggest otherwise :)
Argh!!!!! Brainfart! I meant champion :mark:

[christophulus]

I think that Hamilton is such a stupid and unstable driver that Alonso did the most logical thing when, after seeing Lewis lining up for a pass, he just pulled over and let him go by.

I'd disagree with your view on Hamilton, but let's just agree to disagree.


Not sure I follow your logics there.
If another driver retired before the end of the last lap than they sure would only have had completed 66 laps, exactly like Hamy, and given that they retired they would have been classified behind the ones that actually finished the race, even if 1 lap down.

My reading of the situation would be that as LH crossed the line before FA took the chequered flag, he would have begun lap 67, therefore finishes on the same lap as the leader. If people retire on the final lap, he can overtake them and claim the points.

If he crossed the line after FA took the flag, he would have been classified as one lap down. Even if the whole field after Alonso failed to complete their last lap, Hamilton couldn't move up the standings because he's a lap behind the rest.

I don't know how well I've explained that, but either way it didn't change the result

[ShiftingGears]

Kubica has the coolest head on him, out of the championship contenders.

[ioan]

I'd disagree with your view on Hamilton, but let's just agree to disagree.

It's fine by me.




My reading of the situation would be that as LH crossed the line before FA took the chequered flag, he would have begun lap 67, therefore finishes on the same lap as the leader. If people retire on the final lap, he can overtake them and claim the points.

If he crossed the line after FA took the flag, he would have been classified as one lap down. Even if the whole field after Alonso failed to complete their last lap, Hamilton couldn't move up the standings because he's a lap behind the rest.

I don't know how well I've explained that, but either way it didn't change the result

I understand what you mean, I just don't agree with it.

[Dave B]

I understand what you mean, I just don't agree with it.
You should check that rulebook you're always referring people to: christophulus is correct.

By unlapping himself Lewis was in a position to take advantage of any mistakes or failures by those ahead of him, no matter how unlikely that may have been.

[jas123f1]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but I would like to talk about another thing - I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I don't recall anybody ever getting penalized for running wide into a corner. This is puzzling and a hard one to understand. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.

It looks like FIA is starting to penalize driver errors. Well, I don't remember Räikkönen getting penalized for hitting Sutil at Monaco for one... DC should have got a racing ban a while ago. Etc.

Will FIA create a new rule that a driver isn't allowed to brake late, hence justifying the penalty on Lewis? (Like the Spa stuff). If we combine this to the ridiculous penalty offered to Bourdais, it's all looking weird, what's going on.
Hmm???
Lewis is not yet worthy as champion – again he made one of those “rookie mistakes” he still is doing at regular intervals and this time my opinion is that even Kovy should be penalised because it really was he who push Kimi out of the track.. driving from left side to right side as he would being alone on the track... it was thanks Kimi nothing happened ..

Imo it was dirty driving (and stupid) of both McLarens in the first corner.. go and stop would be more fair than only drive trough .. first went Kovy to right and gave Lewis pace to pas him, then push he Kimi out of the track after Lewis who went out in front of Kimi - Lewis was driving too fast on the right side of the track … and it resulted that he drove out on the track on left side.. in first corner … From left to right and out with smoking tyres… all cars behind him … it’s really should be penalised harder than only drive trough and the same to Kovy .. I think those guys must be little bit cooler in the future – before they cause an accident..


Massa’s penalty was ok imo - he should understand “when it's over” and don't try even when it's impossible...


:)

[FIA]

Kubica said that there are things in common between bowling and F1, well when it comes to Lewis Hamilton it is. Except the skittles are more expensive in F1.

[Robinho]

i've said it before this season, and i have a feeling i'll be seeing it again - if a MclAren does something even slightly questionable, even a toe over the line into a grey area, they can expect to be punished for it, and after last season i don't think they can have any complaints - they know they will be treated harshly, and as a result need to keep in the clear when they can't be judged.

unfortunately (for them) they don't seem to be able to do this, but fortunately, neither do anyone else, and the precednets being set by the harsh (but ultinately not suprising) penalties being handed out this year are having to be followed for others.

whatever Lewis may say i think his biggest strength is also his biggest weakness, he is an out and out racer who will go for the win first then consider the options. he, at the moment, cannot control his instincts, so when given the situation such as turn one, he will always go for it. it might not always work out, but i don't think he will be able to change, to train out your instincts is near impossible, however irrational they may seem when you look back. today looked just like China and Brazil last year, when all he needed to do was carry on and pick up the piecesnLewis went balls out to win the race in the first lap.

it might be a comendable attibute for a racer, but it does not help him much when discretion may well have been the best course.

as for the penalties, it was again harsh, but not without some reason for hamilton. a stone cold definate avoidable collision by Massa and something inexplicable for Bourdais (i'd call that 50/50)

:wave:

[Tazio]

FGS Fernando let him by in order to avoid any problems that might have been caused at that point by Lewy's overheated li'l brain.
And if he was 1 lap down he would still get points if in a point finishing position. ;)
I agree whole-heartedly. It looked comical to me. LH smokin' his tyres trying to get Fred into a dice.
Fred didn't take the bait, and practically parked the Renault to let LH through. :p :

[mstillhere]

\ he didn't lose out too much, and

He might have not lost that many points today but he lost last year's championship by one. So, we will not know exactly until the last race.

[tinchote]

I understand what you mean, I just don't agree with it.

The situation he is mentioning has already happened in the past. In Magny Cours 1997, Ralf Schumacher was 7th and a lap down with one lap to go. MS was first and allowed him to unlap himself. During the last lap DC crashed with Alesi when running 5th, and because he was still running, Ralf was able to overtake him and finish 6th, getting a point in the process. Had he not unlapped himself he would have finished behind DC, and out of the points.

[Dave B]

Lewis forcing Kimi off the track:

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/sport/gallery/2008/oct/12/formulaone-lewishamilton/pack1-2996.jpg

Oh wait, that's Kovy.

[COD]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but I would like to talk about another thing - I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I don't recall anybody ever getting penalized for running wide into a corner. This is puzzling and a hard one to understand. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.



Hamilton only got a away with it without damage because Kimi was awake and made a move to avoid Hamilton. Kimi lost a lot of places because of that. Had I been Kimi, I would have helpped Massa by letting Hamilton crash and retire. But unfortunately Kimi is a gentleman racer unlike Hamilton. The penalty was well desreved, he should have received same in Monza allready.

And Hamilton complaining that Massa only got same penalty even though he hit Hamilton.... Well, had Lewis done the same Kimi did in turn 1, there would have been no contact, he would only have lost a place, but that arrogant b***rd couldn't handle that

[F1boat]

Many years ago one Bulgarian commentator said that young drivers are very fast and make silly mistakes, so they lose the championship. They win later, when they are not as fast, but are more constistent and matured. Maybe he was right...

[ioan]

The situation he is mentioning has already happened in the past. In Magny Cours 1997, Ralf Schumacher was 7th and a lap down with one lap to go. MS was first and allowed him to unlap himself. During the last lap DC crashed with Alesi when running 5th, and because he was still running, Ralf was able to overtake him and finish 6th, getting a point in the process. Had he not unlapped himself he would have finished behind DC, and out of the points.

Thanks for the example. I can't believe that the rule are so stupid that a non finishing car can be classified in front of a finishing one that was one lap down on the leader, well in F1 anything is possible.

My apologies to christophulus and Dave.

[jens]

Thanks for the example. I can't believe that the rule are so stupid that a non finishing car can be classified in front of a finishing one that was one lap down on the leader, well in F1 anything is possible.


It's actually not stupid at all, it's very logical. What ultimately counts, is the amount of laps anyone has driven. If a race lasts 63 laps and two drivers have both completed 62 laps, then why should the one be higher, who covered those laps slower? The one, who managed to go faster, managed to get to the 63rd lap too, but retired. Besides this, the lapped guy didn't get a chance to complete 63rd lap and maybe he would have retired too, so how does he deserve to rank higher?

Or imagine a backmarker getting lapped 3 times and completing 60 laps out of 63. And does he deserve to position higher than the one, who completed 62 laps? :confused:

[tinchote]

Thanks for the example. I can't believe that the rule are so stupid that a non finishing car can be classified in front of a finishing one that was one lap down on the leader, well in F1 anything is possible.

My apologies to christophulus and Dave.

But if you think about it, it's perfectly reasonable (or the least absurd, if you want). We have the principle that when the leader finishes, no one can start a new lap; then, if RS had finished behind MS, he would have completed 71 laps instead of the full 72. DC crashed in the middle of his 72nd lap, so he in that situation he would have certainly been half a lap ahead of RS.

[makt]

massa... just a drive threw for pushing Ham back to last?????
If that had been Ham on massa, then the Fia would have parked him up for at least 10 secs, or made up an amount of time to guarantee points for the red team.. Ferrari fix.

[ioan]

But if you think about it, it's perfectly reasonable (or the least absurd, if you want). We have the principle that when the leader finishes, no one can start a new lap; then, if RS had finished behind MS, he would have completed 71 laps instead of the full 72. DC crashed in the middle of his 72nd lap, so he in that situation he would have certainly been half a lap ahead of RS.

Sure, but than one of them doesn't get the chance to show if he can or not finish the last lap. I find this highly unfair, especially for the constructors championship where a faster but much more unreliable car can score points and a slower but reliable one is denied that chance.

At least I learned something new about F1 today.

[christophulus]

Thanks for the example. I can't believe that the rule are so stupid that a non finishing car can be classified in front of a finishing one that was one lap down on the leader, well in F1 anything is possible.

My apologies to christophulus and Dave.

No problem, and thanks to everyone who explained it so much better than I did! :up:

[Hawkmoon]

I'm not surprised that Hamilton was penalised becuase the stewards have painted themselves into a corner with their questionable decisions this year and probably figured being consistently stupid was better than being inconsistent.

We've got to such a state that James Allen was questioning whether Massa should be penalised for passing Webber in the pitlane exit. The sad thing is that we probably wouldn't have been all that surprised if a penalty had been forthcoming. Anybody so much as puts a wheel on the grass these days and the stewards start reaching for their rule book. I'd hate to see what these guys would have done to Villenueve and Arnoux at Dijon '79. Probably ban the pair of them for life!

As for Hamilton, the lad doesn't like getting passed off the line does he? He effectively ruined his race regardless whether he was penalised or not because he flat spotted his tyres so badly that they wore through to the canvas. He was destined for the back of the field whether Massa hit him or not. The strange thing is, he knew he was going to have to pit yet still chose to fight with Massa. Entertaining? Undoubtedly. Smart? Not even close.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not surprised that Hamilton was penalised becuase the stewards have painted themselves into a corner with their questionable decisions this year and probably figured being consistently stupid was better than being inconsistent.

We've got to such a state that James Allen was questioning whether Massa should be penalised for passing Webber in the pitlane exit. The sad thing is that we probably wouldn't have been all that surprised if a penalty had been forthcoming. Anybody so much as puts a wheel on the grass these days and the stewards start reaching for their rule book. I'd hate to see what these guys would have done to Villenueve and Arnoux at Dijon '79. Probably ban the pair of them for life!

As for Hamilton, the lad doesn't like getting passed off the line does he? He effectively ruined his race regardless whether he was penalised or not because he flat spotted his tyres so badly that they wore through to the canvas. He was destined for the back of the field whether Massa hit him or not. The strange thing is, he knew he was going to have to pit yet still chose to fight with Massa. Entertaining? Undoubtedly. Smart? Not even close.

The flat spotting was dumb. But I doubt many drivers would've expected a banzai move exiting that chicane.

The FIA needs permanent race stewards, who know what they're doing.

[mstillhere]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but I would like to talk about another thing - I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I don't recall anybody ever getting penalized for running wide into a corner. This is puzzling and a hard one to understand. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.

It looks like FIA is starting to penalize driver errors. Well, I don't remember Räikkönen getting penalized for hitting Sutil at Monaco for one... DC should have got a racing ban a while ago. Etc.

Will FIA create a new rule that a driver isn't allowed to brake late, hence justifying the penalty on Lewis? (Like the Spa stuff). If we combine this to the ridiculous penalty offered to Bourdais, it's all looking weird, what's going on.

Your story is interesting, but let;s see Kimi's side of the story:

"I got a pretty good start and got into the first place,” said Raikkonen. “But then braking into the first corner I was trying to turn in and there was first one McLaren and then a second, and I think they both hit me and I had nowhere to go. I needed to go straight and I lost many places and got some damage in the front, but luckily enough I was able to get back on the circuit, but then I was all the time behind people.”

[mstillhere]

Hamilton made a mistake in Turn1, but I would like to talk about another thing - I'm expressing my concern about the penalty. Yes, I have questioned Hamilton and the "fairness" of the penalties before, but I mean... I don't recall anybody ever getting penalized for running wide into a corner. This is puzzling and a hard one to understand. Even Kubica said in the press conference that he braked late for Turn1 and if guys ahead hadn't run wide, there could have been a collision. Besides, also Kovalainen ran wide in Turn1 and forced the Ferraris to take avoiding action too.

It looks like FIA is starting to penalize driver errors. Well, I don't remember Räikkönen getting penalized for hitting Sutil at Monaco for one... DC should have got a racing ban a while ago. Etc.

Will FIA create a new rule that a driver isn't allowed to brake late, hence justifying the penalty on Lewis? (Like the Spa stuff). If we combine this to the ridiculous penalty offered to Bourdais, it's all looking weird, what's going on.

Your story is interesting, but let's read Kimi's side of the story:

"I got a pretty good start and got into the first place,” said Raikkonen. “But then braking into the first corner I was trying to turn in and there was first one McLaren and then a second, and I think they both hit me and I had nowhere to go. I needed to go straight and I lost many places and got some damage in the front, but luckily enough I was able to get back on the circuit, but then I was all the time behind people.”
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-raikkonen-rues-first-corner-dramas/)

So, there was double contact with kimi's car and actually McLaren got lucky (not picked on) since only one of their pilots got punished. it could have been worse.
PS It's not over until when it's over.

[ShiftingGears]

Your story is interesting, but let's read Kimi's side of the story:

"I got a pretty good start and got into the first place,” said Raikkonen. “But then braking into the first corner I was trying to turn in and there was first one McLaren and then a second, and I think they both hit me and I had nowhere to go. I needed to go straight and I lost many places and got some damage in the front, but luckily enough I was able to get back on the circuit, but then I was all the time behind people.”
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-raikkonen-rues-first-corner-dramas/)

So, there was double contact with kimi's car and actually McLaren got lucky (not picked on) since only one of their pilots got punished. it could have been worse.
PS It's not over until when it's over.

Kimi only came into contact with one McLaren. He clarified it. The link is on this forum. And, from the replays, it's pretty obvious that only Kovalainen came into contact with Kimi.

The stewards penalised the wrong driver.

[Tazio]

Lewis' comments about incident at turn one:

"Disappointingly, I didn't make a great start but I slip-streamed Kimi and went up the inside.
I braked a bit late -
but so did everybody. A lot of cars went wide at turn one and I just went a bit wider than everyone else.
But you can't undo the penalty or change today's result".

Weak! :down: But reasonable! :up:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display.var.2459943.0.Massa_refutes_Hamilton_shunt _charge.php

[mstillhere]

Kimi only came into contact with one McLaren. He clarified it. The link is on this forum. And, from the replays, it's pretty obvious that only Kovalainen came into contact with Kimi.

The stewards penalised the wrong driver.

What's the link again?

[Areez2006]

Many years ago one Bulgarian commentator said that young drivers are very fast and make silly mistakes, so they lose the championship. They win later, when they are not as fast, but are more constistent and matured. Maybe he was right...

I guess we'll find out in Brazil (maybe China ;) ...)

[ShiftingGears]

What's the link again?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=544790#post544790

Ferrari official press release. Shouldn't be hard to find.

[nigelred5]

Thanks for the example. I can't believe that the rule are so stupid that a non finishing car can be classified in front of a finishing one that was one lap down on the leader, well in F1 anything is possible.

My apologies to christophulus and Dave.

It's not that hard to understand. Why should a car be awarded more points that completed less race distance? The race is through once the leader finishes the final lap. Once the leader completes the race, everyone behind is on their final lap. You don't get to go around again.
If the retiring car had already completed lap 66 and after starting lap 67 retired, on lap 67, he has covered more race distance. Hamilton was a lap down. Once the leader crossed the line, that was Hamilton's final lap. He doesn't get the opportunity to complete that last lap as the race is over, nor is he awarded more points if a car ahead covered more race distance but retired after the leader comleted the race. Hamilton in essence did not complete the race either. What if he had been 2 laps down but still running? Would he deserve points in your mind, even if he had been lapped twice by the field, including by the car that retired, but he was still running?

Hamilton and McLaren knew the importance of trying to get on the lead lap. Had it been Raikkonen in the lead, I doubt Ferrari would have been as gracious giving Hamilton his lap back. Kimi could have held Lewis up more, but he still had to get by FA and RK.

Personally, were it not for the manufacturers champoinship on the line, I would have pitted Raikkonen to advance Massa as far into the points as possible.
€€

[Hawkmoon]

The flat spotting was dumb. But I doubt many drivers would've expected a banzai move exiting that chicane.

The FIA needs permanent race stewards, who know what they're doing.

I agree he wouldn't have expected the contact but he left absolutely no room for Massa, not that he really had to, and contact was the result. Again, why was he even putting his car in that position? He had no need to pass the Ferrari as he was coming in to change the tyres he had killed at the start. Sure he's a racer but this wasn't smart driving. I think he just couldn't resist getting one over Massa when he should have been thinking damage limitation for the championship.

The same thing happened at Interlagos lat year. He made a poor start, lost a place to Alonso then tried to get the place back and ran off the circuit. All he had to do was fall in behind the Spaniard, finish and win the title. Throw in Hungary this year when he got all stroppy with Massa at the start after the Brazillian jumped him off the line and I think Hamilton doesn't react well to being beaten into turn 1. It's cost him 1 title, will it cost him 2?

[mstillhere]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=544790#post544790

Ferrari official press release. Shouldn't be hard to find.

I did not read anything where he says that Lewis did not hit his car. He mentioned earlier that both Lewis and Kovi hit his car. Kimi talks about Kovi hitting it but he did not say Lewis did not hit his car. Did I miss it?

[ShiftingGears]

I agree he wouldn't have expected the contact but he left absolutely no room for Massa, not that he really had to, and contact was the result. Again, why was he even putting his car in that position? He had no need to pass the Ferrari as he was coming in to change the tyres he had killed at the start. Sure he's a racer but this wasn't smart driving. I think he just couldn't resist getting one over Massa when he should have been thinking damage limitation for the championship.

He didn't need to pass Massa because he was already in front of him. He put the car in that position because it was the racing line, and was assuming that Massa wouldn't try such a high risk passing attempt. Hamilton made a major error in the race - having Massa crash into him was not it.

[ShiftingGears]

I did not read anything where he says that Lewis did not hit his car. He mentioned earlier that both Lewis and Kovi hit his car. Kimi talks about Kovi hitting it but he did not say Lewis did not hit his car. Did I miss it?

Well, it is out there. Also, look at the replay.

[mstillhere]

Well, it is out there. Also, look at the replay.

It's out there? I love it :)

The replay does not show anything when Lewis was behind Kimi. It's impossible to tell. Do we have any other footage showing what happened when Lewis was behind Kimi?

[ArrowsFA1]

I did not read anything where he says that Lewis did not hit his car. He mentioned earlier that both Lewis and Kovi hit his car. Kimi talks about Kovi hitting it but he did not say Lewis did not hit his car. Did I miss it?
Kimi said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71369) : "I was trying to turn in and there was first one McLaren and then a second and I think they both hit me and I had nowhere to go."

The FIA needs permanent race stewards, who know what they're doing.
I'm thinking it should be simpler than that. There should be one permanent steward, similar to the role Brian Bernhart has in the IRL. He's not an anonymous official, unavailable to the drivers or the teams. Far from it. He's involved in the driver briefings so that any issues can be openly discussed and decisions explained.

It won't prevent there being disputes over decisions because that will always happen, but it will provide badly needed consistency and accountability, as well as remove this absurd situation we have where drivers and teams have no idea what is or isn't acceptable, and even if they ask they can't be sure that the answer they get can be relied upon.

The FIA's random use of different stewards at different races, aided by Max's assistant, is making a mockery of the sport and unduly influencing the outcome of the chmapionship. That has to change.

[Dave B]

Thanks for the example. I can't believe that the rule are so stupid that a non finishing car can be classified in front of a finishing one that was one lap down on the leader, well in F1 anything is possible.

My apologies to christophulus and Dave.

Blimey. We've both apologised and admitted a mistake within the space of 24 hours. There's hope for our relationship yet! :D

Anyway, Kimi being hit. He initially said that both McLarens hit him but later, in Ferrari's press release, only one was mentioned.

I can't post a link to it as it's in my inbox, but here are the quotes:


Stefano Domenicali: His car was not quite right after the collision with a McLaren at the first corner and then he was nearly always having to fight in traffic.

Kimi Raikkonen: On top of that, the car was not quite right as I was hit by one of the McLarens: the steering was a bit light and there was other damage as well.
I don't think that Kimi was being dishonest, the opening lap of any race is so busy that he probably did think he'd been hit twice.

[ioan]

... Hamilton doesn't react well to being beaten into turn 1. It's cost him 1 title, will it cost him 2?

Hopefully!

[slinkster]

I'm confused by the whole saga because in my experience of F1 the first corner of a race is always a cause for concern in terms of safety. It's the only time there's that many cramming into one space fighting for position and it's never a suprise to see people being pushed wide, some making contact etc.

I understand why Hamilton's behaviour at the start was highlighted and he admitted that his move at the start wasn't sensible. He seems to be struggling under the pressure cooker that is F1, but again this is to be expected at this stage of the season- not that it's an excuse nor that it should go unpunished - just that we've seen it a hundred times in the past with no penalties or this amount of conflict and drama.

I only managed to see the highlights - Was Hamilton's penalty specifically relating to Raikkonen being pushed wide? Because from what I can see, and as others have pointed out- this was Heikki not Hamilton. It's confusing.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think Hamilton doesn't react well to being beaten into turn 1...
I'm not sure there are many drivers 'happy' about being beaten at any point on the circuit :)

Turn 1 is always a pressure cooker because 1) it's as bunched up as the field gets, 2)because it offers drivers an opportunity of making up places that is denied them most other times, 3) they're carrying quite a bit of fuel on cold tyres.

Risk and reward. Sometimes the kind of move Hamilton tried pays off (see Massa in Hungary), sometimes it doesn't, but never before has a driver been penalised for trying.

Oh, no, wait...Hamilton was penalised for forcing Kimi off-track.

Oh, no, wait...that was Heikki.

[Dave B]

I only managed to see the highlights - Was Hamilton's penalty specifically relating to Raikkonen being pushed wide? Because from what I can see, and as others have pointed out- this was Heikki not Hamilton. It's confusing.
I believe, and I'm trying to find the facts, that his transgression came under the catch-all offence of "causing an avoidable accident".

[Dave B]

I'm confused by the whole saga because in my experience of F1 the first corner of a race is always a cause for concern in terms of safety. It's the only time there's that many cramming into one space fighting for position and it's never a suprise to see people being pushed wide, some making contact etc.
Exactly. Pick any race from the collection of DVDs on my shelf and I can pretty much guarantee some first-corner shenanigans. I have never known it to be punished.

[Ranger]

I believe, and I'm trying to find the facts, that his transgression came under the catch-all offence of "causing an avoidable accident".

I think it was under 'dangerous driving' which is a punishable offence. Which is absolutely rubbish when:
1. No contact was made between Kimi and Lewis at the start of the race.
2. There must be more than 100 similar incidents resulting in contact in the fairly recent past which were not investigated, yet alone penalised

Lewis was mistaken in being so aggressive at the start considering his championship position, but a drive-through penalty? Farcical.

As a non-Lewis fan, if he loses the title by less than 5 points to Massa, I will attribute that to the farcical, arbitrary nature of the stewards who have undercut one of the best seasons in years.

[Dave B]

I think it was under 'dangerous driving' which is a punishable offence.
Thanks for clarifying.


Which is absolutely rubbish...

As a non-Lewis fan, if he loses the title by less than 5 points to Massa, I will attribute that to the farcical, arbitrary nature of the stewards who have undercut one of the best seasons in years.
Totally agreed :up:

[Harm Kuijpers]

Well, he outbraked himself yes... BUT, how many times have we seen this type of incident at the start of a GP in the past? I have, many times... and how many times did a driver get a drive thru? Once, Lewis Hamilton.

I didn't believe the FIA was favouring Ferrari before, and having a hard time believing it still, but come on! The fact that Lewis got as bad a penalty as Massa did for pushing him off the track on purpose just boggles me...

[F1boat]

Harm, Lewis possibly ruined Kimi's race, at least he ruined his excellent start. He got what he deserved. About Massa's accident, I have my thoughs about it and I am happy with it, despite the penalty.

[ArrowsFA1]

Harm, Lewis possibly ruined Kimi's race, at least he ruined his excellent start.
Well it's not Hamilton's job to make Kimi's race easier :) Lewis positioned his car on the inside to take the position back from Kimi. That's what racing drivers do except he overdid it, braked too late and flat-spotted his tyres but he didn't hit Kimi or drive him off the road.

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2008jpn4/image/l__o9t7405-2

[Knock-on]

Well it's not Hamilton's job to make Kimi's race easier :) Lewis positioned his car on the inside to take the position back from Kimi. That's what racing drivers do except he overdid it, braked too late and flat-spotted his tyres but he didn't hit Kimi or drive him off the road.

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2008jpn4/image/l__o9t7405-2


That is a pretty damning photo.

Kimi was still on track and Lewis was clearly ahead of him.

Has anyone got the video?

[jens]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSH-fyG9Nfs

Quite an interesting video from Massa's onboard. Also this gives us an explanation, why did Hamilton drop from 3rd to 7th - he ran wide in Turn2 too. Due to flatspotted tyres or what?

[Dave B]

Well it's not Hamilton's job to make Kimi's race easier :) Lewis positioned his car on the inside to take the position back from Kimi. That's what racing drivers do except he overdid it, braked too late and flat-spotted his tyres but he didn't hit Kimi or drive him off the road.

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/picture_free.php/dir/2008jpn4/image/l__o9t7405-2
There's a very similar one in the Guardian, which I posted yesterday. Again it shows that if the stewards really felt a penalty was justified they could have at least got the right McLaren.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/sport/gallery/2008/oct/12/formulaone-lewishamilton/pack1-2996.jpg

[pino]

After watching the race again and the start severall times, I must say that if someone deserved a penalty, that one was Heikki and not Lewis. I missjudged after the 1st time I watched...still it was a "crazy start" by Lewis :s

[ArrowsFA1]

There's a very similar one in the Guardian, which I posted yesterday. Again it shows that if the stewards really felt a penalty was justified they could have at least got the right McLaren.
You really have to wonder how the stewards come to these decisions :crazy:

We're told that they have more evidence than us to base their judgements on. I'd love to know what it is.

[Dave B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSH-fyG9Nfs

Quite an interesting video from Massa's onboard. Also this gives us an explanation, why did Hamilton drop from 3rd to 7th - he ran wide in Turn2 too. Due to flatspotted tyres or what?
Interesting video :up: It shows just how poor Lewis' start was, and he clearly causes Kimi to move towards the left of the track. Heikki then arrives and nudges the Ferrari.

I can only come back the point that I've seen similar behaviour a hundred times and it's never been penalised until Fuji 2008. And even then the stewards picked the wrong McLaren :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

You really have to wonder how the stewards come to these decisions :crazy:

We're told that they have more evidence than us to base their judgements on. I'd love to know what it is.

Exactly. It's entirely possible they made the right call, but a simple press release along with the evidence they used would go a long way to clearing this up. The stewards' reputation is in tatters after Spa, they really can't afford to continue to be seen as biased.

[Daniel]

What about the fact that Lewis rather dangerously chopped his own team mate? I bet Heiki wasn't expecting the chop. I think Lewis instigated the whole thing. The penalty is debatable but if there was a penalty to be handed out Lewis should have got it.

[pino]

What about the fact that Lewis rather dangerously chopped his own team mate? I bet Heiki wasn't expecting the chop. I think Lewis instigated the whole thing. The penalty is debatable but if there was a penalty to be handed out Lewis should have got it.

Daniel go an watch the start again, you will see that Heikki only cares to close the door to Kimi, when He could've taken the leading insted of. Watch the reply and then come back here and tell me I am wrong if you dare... :hmph: ;)

[mstillhere]

Kimi said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71369) : "I was trying to turn in and there was first one McLaren and then a second and I think they both hit me and I had nowhere to go."

I'm thinking it should be simpler than that. There should be one permanent steward, similar to the role Brian Bernhart has in the IRL. He's not an anonymous official, unavailable to the drivers or the teams. Far from it. He's involved in the driver briefings so that any issues can be openly discussed and decisions explained.

It won't prevent there being disputes over decisions because that will always happen, but it will provide badly needed consistency and accountability, as well as remove this absurd situation we have where drivers and teams have no idea what is or isn't acceptable, and even if they ask they can't be sure that the answer they get can be relied upon.

The FIA's random use of different stewards at different races, aided by Max's assistant, is making a mockery of the sport and unduly influencing the outcome of the chmapionship. That has to change.

James Allen wrote: "He (Lewis) lunged down the inside with his front wheels locked up and pushed Kimi wide". For your reference: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254

[slinkster]

I think it was under 'dangerous driving' which is a punishable offence. Which is absolutely rubbish when:
1. No contact was made between Kimi and Lewis at the start of the race.
2. There must be more than 100 similar incidents resulting in contact in the fairly recent past which were not investigated, yet alone penalised


Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's typical I miss the dramatic races.

I can see why Hamilton's start would be flagged up, especially after seeing the Massa-view video but I'm just still not sure if a penalty was necessary. I've seen far worse. What shocked me more, to be honest, was the way he seemed to swerve out towards Heikki at the start. :(

What a miserable state of affairs.

[ioan]

You really have to wonder how the stewards come to these decisions :crazy:

We're told that they have more evidence than us to base their judgements on. I'd love to know what it is.

Telemetry data about everything that is being done with the car.

[Knock-on]

Telemetry data about everything that is being done with the car.

Apart from who the driver is apparently ;)

[Robinho]

i'm glad that Massa video shows what happened to Lewis further round the 1st lap.

i was sure he exited turn 1 in 3rd and then they started quoting 7th - i didn't think i was seeing things but as usual Mr allen completley missed it, and the replays never went that far.

it looks like he just overcooked it and ran wide in his eagerness to recover - had he relised it was Kubica nand Alonso in front and the ferraris were behind he might have played it a bit more cautious - unless he was wheel to wheel with Alonso or Trulli at that point?

[atrlpz]

You can see the start from the Massa´s cam and the air. Hamilton is thirth y go away fighthing with Alonso. Massa is behind. http://parrillafi.blogspot.com

[atrlpz]

You can see a vid form the air and from Massa. And see why Hamilton pass from thirth place in turn 1 to seventh. http://parrillaf1.blogspot.com

Hamilton fighting against Alonso. 2007? 2008? Nobody knows!

[ShiftingGears]

James Allen wrote: "He (Lewis) lunged down the inside with his front wheels locked up and pushed Kimi wide". For your reference: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254

...which isn't illegal. Pushed does not mean "physical contact"

[Harm Kuijpers]

James Allen wrote: "He (Lewis) lunged down the inside with his front wheels locked up and pushed Kimi wide". For your reference: http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=44254
I remember an Austrian Gp once with MS and JPM when something similar happened, albeit not during the start...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liBhETp8IGA

MS tried to overtake JPM, who brakes far too late and both went off the track.

I don't remember either getting a penalty. So why did Lewis get one?

[ArrowsFA1]

I don't remember either getting a penalty. So why did Lewis get one?
Perhaps as history is divided up into 'periods' so too is F1 :)

[ioan]

I remember an Austrian Gp once with MS and JPM when something similar happened, albeit not during the start...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liBhETp8IGA

MS tried to overtake JPM, who brakes far too late and both went off the track.

I don't remember either getting a penalty. So why did Lewis get one?

JPM would have deserved a penalty too, that wasn't racing anymore that was all about who has the biggest balls and the smallest brain. Such dangerous brain farts should be punished.

[jas123f1]

Daniel go an watch the start again, you will see that Heikki only cares to close the door to Kimi, when He could've taken the leading insted of. Watch the reply and then come back here and tell me I am wrong if you dare... :hmph: ;)

To be honest - the only reason that they didn't crash was that Kimi was braking and gave space to both McLaren .. both McLaren was driving absolutely too fast on the left side of the track and both went out of track on right side - thanks to Kimi nothing happened .. both should have been penalised with stop and go. Kimi was driving in normal way and in maximum speed and braking that late as possible Lewis started to brake long way earlier but still wasn’t able to keep the corner ..and the same with Kovy

http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr129/Jas123F1/F1/Japan-start.jpg

[Areez2006]

Perhaps as history is divided up into 'periods' so too is F1 :)

I think you might be right about that one...we could be entering into an era where the Stewards think they have more influence than they should.

[woody2goody]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's typical I miss the dramatic races.

I can see why Hamilton's start would be flagged up, especially after seeing the Massa-view video but I'm just still not sure if a penalty was necessary. I've seen far worse. What shocked me more, to be honest, was the way he seemed to swerve out towards Heikki at the start. :(

What a miserable state of affairs.

Makes me quite sad all this interfering and penalties and whatever.

It still shouldn't be a penalty against Hamilton, but I think he may have given Kimi the smallest of taps before Kimi was forced wide. I do think he showed quite a bit of disregard for his team-mate when he swerved in front of him.

I've come to the conclusion that BOTH Hamilton and Massa were desperate at Fuji. Lewis was desperate to beat Felipe, hence the start, but Massa was so desperate to stay infront of Lewis he resorted to T-boning him. Massa probably didn't know about Lewis' tyres, and thought that if he gets past that Massa's championship is done.

[ArrowsFA1]

I believe, and I'm trying to find the facts, that his transgression came under the catch-all offence of "causing an avoidable accident".

I think it was under 'dangerous driving' which is a punishable offence.

Just found this (http://www.fia.com/japangp/documents/JPN_08_Document_24.pdf) FIA document which says Hamilton "forced a driver off the track" in breach of Article 16.1 of the 2008 Sporting Regs (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf).

Article 16.1 of the regs says:
"Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which :


- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;

- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

[Dave B]

Just found this (http://www.fia.com/japangp/documents/JPN_08_Document_24.pdf) FIA document which says Hamilton "forced a driver off the track" in breach of Article 16.1 of the 2008 Sporting Regs (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf).

Article 16.1 of the regs says:
Good find. I particularly like the part which says, "Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race".

I still wonder why Lewis was penalised straight away and yet the Massa/Bordais incident was investigated after the race. How strange.

[Knock-on]

Good find. I particularly like the part which says, "Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race".

I still wonder why Lewis was penalised straight away and yet the Massa/Bordais incident was investigated after the race. How strange.

It wasn't even Lewis that forced him off but Heikki. If HK wasn't behind Lewis and alongside Kimi, then he could have cut across across and taken the place.

However, it was obviously a penalty for Lewis because it was HK that pushed him wide :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

It wasn't even Lewis that forced him off but Heikki. If HK wasn't behind Lewis and alongside Kimi, then he could have cut across across and taken the place.

However, it was obviously a penalty for Lewis because it was HK that pushed him wide :rolleyes:

Indeed.

There's a growing feeling - rightly or wrongly - that the FIA is massively biased towards Ferrari. It's probably just paranoia but some of the recent stewards' decisions have done nothing to undo that perception.

The FIA missed a golden opportunity to demonstrate transparency after recent penalties and yet still haven't made available any of the evidence they apparently used. Even the footage which was eventually released was provided by FOM, not the FIA.

[Daniel]

But then again you have to admit Lewis did instigate the happenings at turn 1.

Transparency? FIA? Shurely shome mishtake?

[COD]

Here are all the incidents from many angles.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html
As everybody with clear vision can see, Hamilton first almost takes his teammate out, then brakes so late that he has no chance of making the turn. Only Räikkönen's quick avoiding manouvre makes sure that Hamilton and him don't have a crash. The Kovalainen- Räikkönen incident occures only as a result of Hamiltons idiotic move.

[Dave B]

But then again you have to admit Lewis did instigate the happenings at turn 1.
I've never denied that Lewis made an absolute balls-up of his start and that his late braking forced Kimi to take avoiding action. It was a howler of a move which I thought he'd grown out of.

What I don't agree with is that he made contact with Kimi nor forced him off the track - that was Kovalinen.

What I also take issue with is the hundreds of times I've seen poor judgement at turn one of lap one, and this is the first time I can remember it being penalised.

Hey ho, nice to have a reasoned debate. :)

[Daniel]

I agree but if Lewis didn't do what he did then I doubt Heiki would have made contact with Kimi and forced him off so the root cause is Lewis. So much for Lewis' finesse with the brake pedal :p Not sure I agree with the penalty but whatever. The stewards and the FIA don't care so neither do I :)

[Knock-on]

I agree but if Lewis didn't do what he did then I doubt Heiki would have made contact with Kimi and forced him off so the root cause is Lewis. So much for Lewis' finesse with the brake pedal :p Not sure I agree with the penalty but whatever. The stewards and the FIA don't care so neither do I :)

Lewis outbraked himself. It was a bone head move and not too mature.

However, he didn't do anything more than what happens at most GP's. He outbraked himself but didn't take anyone off.

It was HK that barged Kimi off track and I don't think you can penalise another driver for something going on behind him.

[Daniel]

If he causes what happens behind him then why not?

[Tonieke]

If he causes what happens behind him then why not?

I don't see any reason why you can blame Lewis for Heiki also overshooting the corner !

[Tonieke]

and if you look again at the F1 site footage..even Robert overshot the 1st corner....not as bad as the McL's but still.....forcing Fernando to make a move to avoid contact !

[Daniel]

Knockie said you can't penalise a driver for what happens behind him. I said if he causes it you can. If you can't be bothered to read the posts don't reply to them tonieke

[Tonieke]

Knockie said you can't penalise a driver for what happens behind him. I said if he causes it you can. If you can't be bothered to read the posts don't reply to them tonieke

I am not goin to lower myself to your level of showing respect towards other forum members....that is all I am goin to say ! Makes no sense to keep posting on here if all you get in return are personal attacks over and over by some !

[Daniel]

Huh? Read the post again and reply properly this time please. Knockie might disagree with me but at least he understands my posts and replies appropriately

[Tonieke]

Huh? Read the post again and reply properly this time please. Knockie might disagree with me but at least he understands my posts and replies appropriately


well ya you asked a question "If he causes what happens behind him then why not?" and I replied I don't see any reason why Lewis was to blame for Heiki overshooting the corner too" you tell me what was so bad in that for you to post that last sentence in your reply to me ?

[Daniel]

I give up. I really do. You take things far too literally.........

[Tonieke]

I give up. I really do. You take things far too literally.........

don't worry Daniel..you will no longer have to feel annoyed by my posts !

[Knock-on]

Knockie said you can't penalise a driver for what happens behind him. I said if he causes it you can. If you can't be bothered to read the posts don't reply to them tonieke

I agree that in some instances you can penalise the driver infront for causing an incident such as if he brake tests the driver behind but how you can penalise a driver infront for going too fast and overshooting a corner is beyond my comprehension :confused:

It was the driver behind Lewis that pushed Kimi off.

[jas123f1]

Here are all the incidents from many angles.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html
As everybody with clear vision can see, Hamilton first almost takes his teammate out, then brakes so late that he has no chance of making the turn. Only Räikkönen's quick avoiding manouvre makes sure that Hamilton and him don't have a crash. The Kovalainen- Räikkönen incident occures only as a result of Hamiltons idiotic move.

Right analysed - and therefore Lewis get his penalty - however - i think Kovy should get a penalty too - because he loosed his head as well as Lewis - there was some kind of follow me (Lewis) and he did - how stupid it was, those guys must learn that racing is something other than pushing out competitors from the track and the same for Massa too (it was more like before) - disappointing - pushing out Lewis was unnecessary and stupid.. and it is very difficult to me to understand why Bourdais get his penalty ??

However I hope Massa will win next race so we have a nice situation in Brazil.. :)

[N. Jones]

Even though I'm a little late to the discussion I believe Lewis is equally a little too aggressive and needs to think of the big picture - going for the win doesn't always guarantee you the championship.

[ArrowsFA1]

Right analysed - and therefore Lewis get his penalty - however - i think Kovy should get a penalty too - because he loosed his head as well as Lewis
You're onto something there. If you accept Hamilton should have been penalised - and I don't - then there are any number of other instances where drivers should have received exactly the same penalty.

The fact that they haven't - this is the first time I can remember a driver being penalised in those circumstances - raises genuine and valid questions about the decisions of the stewards.

I think the official F1 website recognised that with their "what do you think" video that pino has posted. For them to do that was unprecedented. The FIA had already got itself into a right old pickle where stewards decisions are concerned, and Japan merely highlighted the undue influence they, and therefore the FIA, are having on the outcome of this years championships.

[COD]

Views of other drivers about Hamilton's driving:

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/170552-0/f1_rivals_round_on_under-fire_hamilton.html

[jas123f1]

You're onto something there. If you accept Hamilton should have been penalised - and I don't - then there are any number of other instances where drivers should have received exactly the same penalty.

The fact that they haven't - this is the first time I can remember a driver being penalised in those circumstances - raises genuine and valid questions about the decisions of the stewards.

I think the official F1 website recognised that with their "what do you think" video that pino has posted. For them to do that was unprecedented. The FIA had already got itself into a right old pickle where stewards decisions are concerned, and Japan merely highlighted the undue influence they, and therefore the FIA, are having on the outcome of this years championships.

If every one would start driving as Lewis do - it wouldn't take very long before we have an big accident.. I agreed with Kubica that Lewis goes over the line between fair driving and dirty driving too often, he is too hot and loos his head - as now in Japan – he made a poor start and loosed his place to Kimi and every one can see how he was reacting… he push Kimi out of the track – no doubts there .. Earlier this year he hit Kimi on the pit line and destroyed both’s race.. He push Timo Glock out of the track in a speed of 240 km/h.. he make his mistakes too often and don’t even care..

He must learn to accept that he loose if he make mistakes – every one do - the fact that he is young and it’s only his second season in F1 doesn’t excuse him at all – he is driving in the highest racing series and must grow up and take it cooler.. He is telling to every one who like to listen that he is better and cooler driver today than last year, when he loosed everything of the same reasons - I hope he has NOW learned the lesson – even if i have my doubts.. After saying that.. i like also say that he is a great talent and good driver and fighter - but must be cooler..

However he deserves all penalties has got and imo he can be lucky that he didn’t get harder than only drive trough in Japan and actually nothing when he push out Timo .. and in Japan should also Kovy deserved a drive trough … that’s my opinion of it.. :)

[wmcot]

Here are all the incidents from many angles.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html
As everybody with clear vision can see, Hamilton first almost takes his teammate out, then brakes so late that he has no chance of making the turn. Only Räikkönen's quick avoiding manouvre makes sure that Hamilton and him don't have a crash. The Kovalainen- Räikkönen incident occures only as a result of Hamiltons idiotic move.

Good video! If you watch it closely you can see that LH came within inches of hitting Kimi and the only reason he didn't was that Kimi took action to avoid him. Therefore, he DID force Kimi off the track to avoid an accident. The fact the HK made contact with KR should be looked into also. In fact, you could penalize LH for the way he forced HK to the inside (lucky they didn't collide) before the KR incident.

Those that argue that it is a normal racing incident or a normal first corner incident probably think that the Kamakaze pilots in WWII were just "landing incidents!" :)

[F1boat]

Good video! If you watch it closely you can see that LH came within inches of hitting Kimi and the only reason he didn't was that Kimi took action to avoid him. Therefore, he DID force Kimi off the track to avoid an accident. The fact the HK made contact with KR should be looked into also. In fact, you could penalize LH for the way he forced HK to the inside (lucky they didn't collide) before the KR incident.

Those that argue that it is a normal racing incident or a normal first corner incident probably think that the Kamakaze pilots in WWII were just "landing incidents!" :)

Well said. I think that because some people here like the aggresive approach of Lewy, they tend to tolerate his dangreous attacks. However, I can not and BTW I hate his style ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Those that argue that it is a normal racing incident or a normal first corner incident probably think that the Kamakaze pilots in WWII were just "landing incidents!" :)

Please!

Lewis locks his front wheels, goes wide. Does not force Kimi off the track! It's a racing incident, sometimes that happens when drivers race.

[ArrowsFA1]

Please!

Lewis locks his front wheels, goes wide. Does not force Kimi off the track! It's a racing incident, sometimes that happens when drivers race.
It seems that some would rather they didn't :dozey: That's the problem with recent stewards decisions. Nick Heidfeld has already suggested he's worried that from now on any mistakes on track put him at a risk of facing sanction. Given the consistent inconsistency of the rulings no-one knows where they stand. Even when the FIA Race Director issues a directive (driver exiting pits has right of way) it's ignored by the FIA stewards :rolleyes:

[555-04Q2]

From what I understand, rule # 13.1 states that if a driver forces another driver off the track, he can be punished with a drive through penalty. Going by that stipulation, Hamilton should have got at least 5 or 6 drive through's as he forced more than one car off the track. I dont agree with the penalty Hamilton got, it was a first corner incident which happens all the time. What Massa did to Hamilton was punishable though, but not Hamiltons first corner incident IMO.

Why no penalty for ignoring blue flags for two laps?

If the FIA were truly anti-Mclaren, that appalling disrespect of a fellow competitor should alone warrant the removal of a super-licence.

Funny how the Mclaren supporters round here have nothing to say about that.

[Dave B]

Why no penalty for ignoring blue flags for two laps?
This is the first I've heard of it. Which McLaren and when?

[woody2goody]

Well said. I think that because some people here like the aggresive approach of Lewy, they tend to tolerate his dangreous attacks. However, I can not and BTW I hate his style ;)

Wasn't exactly dangerous, there have been so many occasions where this has happened before. There used to be 8-10 car pile-ups that received no penalties, even a year or two ago. Yes, Hamilton is aggressive, but I don't think I've seen any F1 driver being consistently dangerous.

What about what Schumacher used to do? He was a legend of the sport but used to punt people off the track, force people onto the grass at high speed, and also commit the odd risky overtaking manoevre. And Senna did it too.

[ioan]

This is the first I've heard of it. Which McLaren and when?

Hamilton, obviously :D , blocked Trulli for 2 laps even when showed the famous blue flag.

[ioan]

Well said. I think that because some people here like the aggresive approach of Lewy, they tend to tolerate his dangreous attacks. However, I can not and BTW I hate his style ;)

Interesting enough the same people don't tolerate other driver's aggressive approach when Lewy is the one at the receiving end! :)

[ioan]

Hopefully he will not try to skip Friday's drivers meeting:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71441

[555-04Q2]

This is the first I've heard of it. Which McLaren and when?

It happened. Hammy either wasnt expecting the blue flags as he doesnt normally get them as he is usually running at the front passing backmarkers, or he just plain ignored them.

[Dave B]

Hamilton, obviously :D , blocked Trulli for 2 laps even when showed the famous blue flag.
Well as you didn't provide a source I've just googled and seen that apparently Glock was moaning that his team mate was blocked.

Strange that Trulli hasn't mentioned it, nor Toyota, and very strange that as blue flags are relayed to the team that McLaren didn't issue any instructions to Hamilton.

Or could it be that Glock's mistaken?

[Dave B]

Thinking more about this, there are only two possibilties:

1) It never hapenned, Glock's talking rubbish.

2) It did happen, and the stewards are even more incompetent than we thought becuase they didn't even investigate it, let alone penalise Hamilton.

[ArrowsFA1]

Hamilton, obviously :D , blocked Trulli for 2 laps even when showed the famous blue flag.
And you know for a fact the blue flag was shown because... :confused:

[Robinho]

Hamilton, obviously :D , blocked Trulli for 2 laps even when showed the famous blue flag.


sounds interesting, presumabley you have the evidence to show Hamilton passed 3 waved blue flags without letting Trulli past - which of course results in an instant penalty.

if you do, why has no-one mentioned it in the sport, the press or on the forum for a week, and why didn't the stewards do something, as this is clearly an easily proven breach in the rules.

if he did this i'll join you at the front of the queue in condemnation for Hamilton.

alternatively it could just be made up - and until someone provides me with evidence to the contrary i'll stick with that view, from what i saw, when the marshalls showed a blue flag, Lewis let Trulli past.

[woody2goody]

Thinking more about this, there are only two possibilties:

1) It never hapenned, Glock's talking rubbish.

2) It did happen, and the stewards are even more incompetent than we thought becuase they didn't even investigate it, let alone penalise Hamilton.

From what I remember of the footage, I don't think Lewis blocked Trulli in the sense of going by 3 blue flags, but he didn't get out of the way as quickly as he maybe should have (i.e. got in his way a bit). I don't reckon it was intentional though and it didn't affect Jarno's race too much.

[Hawkmoon]

It seems the issue for the other drivers, or at least Mark Webber, is not Hamilton outbreaking himself into Turn 1, but rather moving around in the breaking zones.



"There was also no way he was going to make the first corner. But that is not illegal to outbrake yourself. We want to have a bit of a chat about moving around in the braking areas. I am not smashing Hamilton but it is about how you move on. Tiger Woods learns. Roger Federer learns. And Lewis is going through that."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71441

Hamilton does seem to move around alot when fighting with other cars. Perhaps he's trying to emulate Schumacher and Senna in both the goods ways and the bad.

[ShiftingGears]

I think everyone here is making a judgement based on the assumption that blue flags were shown. This may not have been the case.

[Ranger]

You only have to concede if there are blue flags shown.

Nowhere does Jarno Trulli mention that there were blue flags for those 2 laps.

It's a pain in the arse but Lewis did nothing illegal, unless there is evidence it was shown.

[Hawkmoon]

The blue flags, or lack there of, aren't really relevant. Either Hamilton was running last, as Trulli said, when the Italian tried to lap him so Hamilton shouldn't have needed the flags to tell him to move over or Hamilton wasn't running last but nor was he racing Trulli for position so he must have known that he was being lapped and moved over.

Either way, blue flags or not, Hamilton must have known that he wasn't racing the Toyota and moved over. If he didn't know then McLaren did and they should have told him to let Trulli through.

Malllen, you're right, it wasn't illegal if the flags weren't shown but it wasn't fair either. Hamilton screwed his own race all on his lonesome. He did need to mess with Trulli's race.

[Tazio]

This begs a much more meaningful question!
Upon letting JT through did LH kinda like flip him the bird or, well, you know :p :

[mstillhere]

From what I remember of the footage, I don't think Lewis blocked Trulli in the sense of going by 3 blue flags, but he didn't get out of the way as quickly as he maybe should have (i.e. got in his way a bit). I don't reckon it was intentional though and it didn't affect Jarno's race too much.

But do you people hear yourselves? 3 differet drivers 3 are complaining about Lewis driving and you are there defending him still? He did not get out the way fast enough? Trulli was stuck behind him for TWO LAPS not two seconds. TWO LAPS!!! Not intentional? For TWO LAPS??? Yes it was intentional. Of course. Let me tell you: the guy is losing it. He's totally cookoo. He is not even listening RD who in Japan told him to let Kimi go if it were the case. He did not listen. He had to show off. His ego is so huge that he thinks he is the best. He is the only one who knows anything about F1. He's got the balls!! He's blind and deaf to anyone else's view or suggestion. I know someone here would say: But that's what champions do. Lewis to date is not champion. He's a driver who has won a couple of races. Period. The real champions are those pilots who are able to use their racing skills together with their intelligence while keeping their cool on the track. Sadly enough Trulli, Kubica, and Webber are not the only ones who are complaining about Lewis: Alonso, Kimi did as well as you all know. But I know. They are all jealous and crazy. But hey, if you like it like that don't be surprised and don't complain when Lewis is going to be punished again, and again and again by the stewards and by his own "colleagues". Alonso alreday said it. If he can, he'll help Massa winning the chmpionship. Kimi too, naturally. I bet you Webber and Kubica are also considering to do the same.

[janneppi]

mstillhere, for god's sake, use the "enter button" once in a while. That's nearly impossible to read. ;)

[mstillhere]

mstillhere, for god's sake, use the "enter button" once in a while. That's nearly impossible to read. ;)

Point well taken. I can barely read it myself :)

[Ranger]

But do you people hear yourselves? 3 differet drivers 3 are complaining about Lewis driving and you are there defending him still? He did not get out the way fast enough? Trulli was stuck behind him for TWO LAPS not two seconds. TWO LAPS!!! Not intentional? For TWO LAPS??? Yes it was intentional. Of course.
The lapped Fisichella held up Webber in Monaco 2006 for not two, but six laps, causing him to lose 10 seconds to the leaders he was otherwise in touch with.

Was that intentional? No.

Was it because the marshals were bog slow in realising that a title winning car could be lapped by a midfield car? Yes.

In situations like that, the driver has no obligation to let a faster car past. Hence, Lewis did nothing wrong in that situation unless I see evidence that there were blue flags during those two laps, and at the moment I see none.

[mstillhere]

The lapped Fisichella held up Webber in Monaco 2006 for not two, but six laps, causing him to lose 10 seconds to the leaders he was otherwise in touch with.

Was that intentional? No.

Was it because the marshals were bog slow in realising that a title winning car could be lapped by a midfield car? Yes.

In situations like that, the driver has no obligation to let a faster car past. Hence, Lewis did nothing wrong in that situation unless I see evidence that there were blue flags during those two laps, and at the moment I see none.

Well apparently professional F! drivers don't feel that same as you do. And I

know that we all feel we know so much more than they do. However, I am

not aware anybody complaining about Fisichella's driving. They are

complaining about Hamilton's driving unless you are saying that everybody is

unfairly picking on Lewis because he is so successfull and everyone is very

jealous. I don't think yours is a good example since Fisichella has been rarely

punished if ever. On the other hand Lewis is being punished all the time. And

interestengly enough the complaints are noy even coming from Ferrari.

[wmcot]

Please!

Lewis locks his front wheels, goes wide. Does not force Kimi off the track! It's a racing incident, sometimes that happens when drivers race.

OK, he didn't force Kimi off, Kimi chose to go off to avoid being run into - is that better? I suggest you watch the video again and notice the position of the cars. Tell me where Kimi could go except off the track? Perhaps Kimi should have held his line and taken Lewis out - can you imagine the uproar over that?

(BTW if you "go wide" and there is a car outside of you, you do take that car off the track - unless Lewis can hop over other cars without touching.)

[ArrowsFA1]

But do you people hear yourselves? 3 differet drivers 3 are complaining about Lewis driving...
So what are they actually saying?

Jarno Trulli:

"I don't comment on Lewis' driving because honestly I can comment only on what happened to me. In the end I don't want to get involved in any speculation or discussions. He has done some good things and some bad things, as has every driver. It is difficult to judge. I would feel it is unfair to talk about him. It is better to discuss it with him and tell him, as I will do tomorrow. I will go in the drivers' briefing and I will say to Charlie, this is what happened and I believe Lewis could have handled it in a different way because it was not fair. But I am not going against anyone. I am not the kind of person who, if I don't get on with them, I make it a war of words. I just want an easy life without fighting; I just want to make the sport fair for everyone. I don't care if you are driving a top team car or the last car, I expect everyone to be treated the same."
Mark Webber:

"I think he is always going to be under the spotlight, that is the problem with Lewis. He is always under this light, which he would not necessarily want - he just wants to win his first world title. Being under this spotlight for various other reasons – whether they are the politics of the sport, his skin, or whatever it is I don't know. I think there have been a few occasions where he has learned. Michael was doing this stuff when he had all this experience under his belt, Lewis is still in only his second year of F1."
Contrast those comments with the kind of rubbish (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130127) that the media produce to make a story.

The drivers aren't out to "get" Hamilton. The Friday briefing with Charlie Whiting is a perfectly normal place for these kind of issues to be raised. It's not the first time a driver will be quizzed about his driving by his peers, and it certainly won't be the last.

Fortunately Trulli and Webber are doing what they can to correct some of the media's more fanciful stories, but the media will continue to do what they do best.

[ioan]

I like how Hamy fans question Glock's and Trulli's integrity when they dare to voice they anger about the best thing since sliced bread. :rolleyes:
Pathetic.

[wmcot]

Wasn't exactly dangerous

There are several drivers who share the track with Lewis who would disagree with you...

[ArrowsFA1]

I like how Hamy fans question Glock's and Trulli's integrity when they dare to voice they anger about the best thing since sliced bread. :rolleyes:
Pathetic.
I believe it is Glock's comments about the existence of blue flags that is being questioned given that there is no mention of blue flags by anyone else anywhere else.

But this is all being discussed thoroughly in another thread (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130124).

[ShiftingGears]

OK, he didn't force Kimi off, Kimi chose to go off to avoid being run into - is that better? I suggest you watch the video again and notice the position of the cars. Tell me where Kimi could go except off the track? Perhaps Kimi should have held his line and taken Lewis out - can you imagine the uproar over that?

(BTW if you "go wide" and there is a car outside of you, you do take that car off the track - unless Lewis can hop over other cars without touching.)

Kimi went to turn in, and Lewis was there. He could've stayed on the track if Kovalainen was not there. A mess up by Hamilton, but not deserving of a penalty.

[leopard]

Point well taken. I can barely read it myself :)

But don't use the button too often. :)

[Ranger]

Well apparently professional F! drivers don't feel that same as you do. And I

know that we all feel we know so much more than they do. However, I am

not aware anybody complaining about Fisichella's driving. They are

complaining about Hamilton's driving unless you are saying that everybody is

unfairly picking on Lewis because he is so successfull and everyone is very

jealous. I don't think yours is a good example since Fisichella has been rarely

punished if ever. On the other hand Lewis is being punished all the time. And

interestengly enough the complaints are noy even coming from Ferrari.

I think mine was a good example because it was exactly the same situation as Hamilton and Trulli last Sunday. So yes, on that point I am defending Lewis because there is nothing so far, not even Trulli's words, that prove him guilty of anything when Trulli was coming up to lap him.

In the context of my previous comment, I didn't defend or condone the other incidents Hamilton was involved with, don't pretend I did.

[Knock-on]

I like how Hamy fans question Glock's and Trulli's integrity when they dare to voice they anger about the best thing since sliced bread. :rolleyes:
Pathetic.

I think it's pathetic that people jump on a sound bite in the media and use it without any proof.

However, a quick check of last weeks race shows it to be untrue.

[Daniel]

Thing is drivers don't accuse others of ignoring blue flags everyday. Not saying that's proof but it's certainly enough in my opinion for me to think it's possible Lewis did do that.

[Knock-on]

Thing is drivers don't accuse others of ignoring blue flags everyday. Not saying that's proof but it's certainly enough in my opinion for me to think it's possible Lewis did do that.

Daniel

I've provided proof in the other thread that he wasn't behind him for 2 laps but a few corners prior to pitting.

That was the only point in the race that it could have occurred.

I cannot comment about the flags being shown but if Lewis had of ignored 3 blue flags, do you seriously think the FIA would have ignored it and Toyota wouldn't have appealed to the Stewards?

[ArrowsFA1]

Suggestions from some quarters that the drivers' briefing would turn into a showdown between Hamilton and his rivals proved wide of the mark, as the matters that were due to be raised about aspects of his driving were swiftly dealt with.
It is understood Jarno Trulli did raise with Whiting the issue of Hamilton holding him up when he was lapping the McLaren in Japan, but the response was simply that it was the responsibility of teams to inform their drivers they were being lapped.
Sources have also revealed that Mark Webber chose to privately clarify the remarks he made yesterday about issues raised by Hamilton's first corner antics in Japan. Webber made it clear that he never suggested Hamilton was an on-track danger, as his comments had been interpreted in some publications.
David Coulthard said that the briefing had been totally normal, as the issues raised by what happened in Japan were reviewed as they usually are after each event.
"Obviously there were some conversations about understanding stewards' decisions," said Coulthard. "It was a normal drivers' briefing, and on we go with the race weekend."
The Red Bull Racing driver said there was no feeling of an anti-Hamilton feeling among the drivers about his driving.
"I did not sense anything," he said. "No one raised any point on that. I think it had all been built up in the press conference on Thursday."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71493

A lot of fuss over nothing then.

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71493

A lot of fuss over nothing then.

No...

But...

But...

But..........

There just must be....

[mstillhere]

So what are they actually saying?

Jarno Trulli:

Mark Webber:

Contrast those comments with the kind of rubbish (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130127) that the media produce to make a story.

The drivers aren't out to "get" Hamilton. The Friday briefing with Charlie Whiting is a perfectly normal place for these kind of issues to be raised. It's not the first time a driver will be quizzed about his driving by his peers, and it certainly won't be the last.

Fortunately Trulli and Webber are doing what they can to correct some of the media's more fanciful stories, but the media will continue to do what they do best.

So you pretty much like to read what's convenient for you. The media instead makes stuff up. As I said, Lewis way of driving is reckless, dangerous

and he is creating his own demise. If it's ok with you it's defenitely ok with me. :)

[mstillhere]

But don't use the button too often. :)

I could not help it :)

[mstillhere]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71493

A lot of fuss over nothing then.

The fact he keeps in getting hit with punishments is also made up by the press, right? No, wait, that's the FIA's conspiracy against McLaren and Lewis instead.

[gloomyDAY]

Hamilton better win it this time around.

My pickem's are kaput!

[ArrowsFA1]

The media instead makes stuff up.
Mark Webber has made clear that they do.

[wmcot]

Kimi went to turn in, and Lewis was there. He could've stayed on the track if Kovalainen was not there. A mess up by Hamilton, but not deserving of a penalty.

You left out a bit - It should be that Kimi went to turn in and Lewis was there, but totally out of control with all four wheels locked and sliding wide.
I don't think any driver would do anything different but to avoid someone sliding toward your racing line with wheels locked and out of control. That's where the dangerous driving part comes in!

[ArrowsFA1]

Mark Webber has made clear that they do.
Just so it is crysal clear - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7675413.stm

[jjanicke]

Lewis is too aggressive. Got what he deserved.

For that matter MAS was too aggressive too, essentially causing 2 spins.


I couldn't stop cheering Massa when he made Hamilton spin. He got what he deserved.

My question is: would have Hamilton had to make the drive-through penalty without the incident in the chicane? Remember he previously pulled Kimi off the track on turn one.

Well done, Felipe!!

It's unfortunate that we find ourselves with this type of F1 fan. Cheering for the guy who, arguable, commited the only penalty in Japan. Sad day for F1. :(


Fernando was goo leting Hamilton go ahead of him. All Alonso didn't need was another incident, and knowing the englishman...

ALO had nothing to lose letting HAM by, and HAM had everything to gain getting back onto the lead lap. Unfortunately nobody DNF'd on the last lap and it ended up not helping HAM.


this was extremely childish IMO.

Are you referring to HAM passing ALO just before the penultimate lap? If so, would you call M.SCH childish for doing the same? (because M.SCH did exactly that, giving his team the chance of maximum points and it paid off with a couple DNF's on the penultimate lap)


FGS Fernando let him by in order to avoid any problems that might have been caused at that point by Lewy's overheated li'l brain.
And if he was 1 lap down he would still get point
s if in a point finishing position. ;)

As much as you often appear to rant and rave on about your F1 intelligence this shows you lack of F1 knowledge.

[jjanicke]

I agree he wouldn't have expected the contact but he left absolutely no room for Massa, not that he really had to, and contact was the result. Again, why was he even putting his car in that position? He had no need to pass the Ferrari as he was coming in to change the tyres he had killed at the start. Sure he's a racer but this wasn't smart driving. I think he just couldn't resist getting one over Massa when he should have been thinking damage limitation for the championship.

The same thing happened at Interlagos lat year. He made a poor start, lost a place to Alonso then tried to get the place back and ran off the circuit. All he had to do was fall in behind the Spaniard, finish and win the title. Throw in Hungary this year when he got all stroppy with Massa at the start after the Brazillian jumped him off the line and I think Hamilton doesn't react well to being beaten into turn 1. It's cost him 1 title, will it cost him 2?

Are you saying MAS had no room when he punted HAM? If so I would watch the footage again. MAS had nothing but room. He oversteered into the chicane, corrected, and in doing so left the door wide open for HAM.

[jjanicke]

I think it was under 'dangerous driving' which is a punishable offence. Which is absolutely rubbish when:
1. No contact was made between Kimi and Lewis at the start of the race.
2. There must be more than 100 similar incidents resulting in contact in the fairly recent past which were not investigated, yet alone penalised

Lewis was mistaken in being so aggressive at the start considering his championship position, but a drive-through penalty? Farcical.

As a non-Lewis fan, if he loses the title by less than 5 points to Massa, I will attribute that to the farcical, arbitrary nature of the stewards who have undercut one of the best seasons in years.

It was "pushing another driver off the track". 2008 Sporting regs specifically call it out. That said, how many time have we seen a driver get pushed off the track without penalty? A lot!!


What about the fact that Lewis rather dangerously chopped his own team mate? I bet Heiki wasn't expecting the chop. I think Lewis instigated the whole thing. The penalty is debatable but if there was a penalty to be handed out Lewis should have got it.

Since when has the "schumacher" chop been penalized? Never, to my recollection!


To be honest - the only reason that they didn't crash was that Kimi was braking and gave space to both McLaren .. both McLaren was driving absolutely too fast on the left side of the track and both went out of track on right side - thanks to Kimi nothing happened .. both should have been penalised with stop and go. Kimi was driving in normal way and in maximum speed and braking that late as possible Lewis started to brake long way earlier but still wasn’t able to keep the corner ..and the same with Kovy

Probably best to revisit the video (not still photos). HAM brakes much later than RAI into turn 1. Than, as any competitive athlete should do, KOV went for the gap left by RAI getting out of the way of HAM. No penalties should have been served for turn 1.


Good find. I particularly like the part which says, "Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race".

I still wonder why Lewis was penalised straight away and yet the Massa/Bordais incident was investigated after the race. How strange.

The MAS/BOU incident was really not an incident. It was only in the minds of the stewards, and in this case it's the only opinion that mattered.

[jjanicke]

Why no penalty for ignoring blue flags for two laps?

If the FIA were truly anti-Mclaren, that appalling disrespect of a fellow competitor should alone warrant the removal of a super-licence.

Funny how the Mclaren supporters round here have nothing to say about that.

HAM ignored blue flags? It couldn't have been KOV, as HAM was the only one lapped in Japan.


Hamilton, obviously :D , blocked Trulli for 2 laps even when showed the famous blue flag.

Hmm, ALO was the only person to lap HAM. How did HAM block TRU. TRU wasn't anywhere near the lead!!!

[jjanicke]

So you pretty much like to read what's convenient for you. The media instead makes stuff up. As I said, Lewis way of driving is reckless, dangerous

and he is creating his own demise. If it's ok with you it's defenitely ok with me. :)

By that logic your most favorite driver of all M.SCH and many others drive reckless and dangerous.

The infamous SCH chop. The Monaco Q3 stunt. MAS punting HAM from way back, ....

HAM is racing, what do you want him to do. "No I insist, after you Kimi".

[ShiftingGears]

You left out a bit - It should be that Kimi went to turn in and Lewis was there, but totally out of control with all four wheels locked and sliding wide.
I don't think any driver would do anything different but to avoid someone sliding toward your racing line with wheels locked and out of control. That's where the dangerous driving part comes in!

He was sliding wide, and it was a massive cock up by Hamilton, but I just think it's a racing incident that can happen, and shouldn't be penalised.

[mstillhere]

Just so it is crysal clear - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7675413.stm

There you go:
"Webber feels an accident could take place unless Hamilton tempers his style"

http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=formula1/08/10/17/AUTO_Chinese_Webber.html

Furthermore, for clarification, what I posted was what several pilots have said about Lewis but for some reason you seem to be focusing only on Webber.

I was not talking only about Webber. I was talking about Webber, and Kimi, and Alonso and Kubica. All drivers that you don't seem to, conveniently, be paying any attention to and who all complain about Lewis driving style.

Oh, wait, and Trulli too. I almost forgot.

[ShiftingGears]

I like how Hamy fans question Glock's and Trulli's integrity when they dare to voice they anger about the best thing since sliced bread. :rolleyes:
Pathetic.

Nobody said they were lying.

[ArrowsFA1]

All drivers that you don't seem to, conveniently, be paying any attention to and who all complain about Lewis driving style.
It had been reported that the Friday driver briefing was going to be taken up with criticism of Hamilton's driving, and yet according to DC "It was a normal drivers' briefing...no one raised any point on that."

It's a media storm in a teacup.

[mstillhere]

It had been reported that the Friday driver briefing was going to be taken up with criticism of Hamilton's driving, and yet according to DC "It was a normal drivers' briefing...no one raised any point on that."

It's a media storm in a teacup.

As I said you mention the quotes that work for you and I mention those that work for me. What's undeniable is that Hamilton has been punished again, and again, and again.

And I know, now you are going to say: "But that was unfair, and you blame the judges, the stewards, the track, the tires, etc. etc. etc. What can I say?
If if it would have been once, twice. Maybe. But it has not. So.....

For the record: You mentioned; Webber, Coulthhard.
I mentioned: Trulli, Kimi, Kubica, and Alonso not liking Lewis driving

Let's see if we are going to add more nmaes to the list after today's race

[ArrowsFA1]

What's undeniable is that Hamilton has been punished again, and again, and again.
No disagreement there :up:

[Daniel]

Daniel

I've provided proof in the other thread that he wasn't behind him for 2 laps but a few corners prior to pitting.

That was the only point in the race that it could have occurred.

I cannot comment about the flags being shown but if Lewis had of ignored 3 blue flags, do you seriously think the FIA would have ignored it and Toyota wouldn't have appealed to the Stewards?

Well excuse me for posting on a phone and not checking every post and not being able to view vision F1 on my phone before making my perfectly reasonable statement :)

I never accused Lewis of ignoring blue flags. Just like you say "Wouldn't Toyota have complained" I said "Drivers don't say these things for no reason".

Chillax :)

[Areez2006]

Okay, I can understand that Massa caused the spin, but the entire situation could have been avoided. I mean the aggressive first corner move was unwarranted, and he could have probably regained the lead later or on the next lap. Did that entire pre-race meeting Ron was talking about go entirely out of his ear? All he has to do is finish behind Massa. But either way, the only positive I can see coming from this is that he HAS to learn a lesson from this. Please, just bring the car home in China and Brazil...

lol...I don't know how many people quote themselves, but I guess I just need to get this point across. I think he definately brought the car home, but in the amazing fashion of pole, fastest lap, and win.

[winer]

Hamilton says he is unliked because he is winning:
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/081019074254.shtml

He he wasn't such a horse's patoot, he would understand that it is his driving tactics that make people dislike him.

[Daniel]

For me it's more his persona that I don't like. His driving tactics are not great but it's his persona I don't like at all. There have been drivers who have been successful and uncompromising before and they've been liked and loved. Lewis is just too arrogant and cocksure for a lot of people.

[gravity]

He does have a point though. If he wasn't winning, the press wouldn't be on his case in the same way.
I remember Sato and Nakajima Snr getting involved in a lot (if not more?) incidents than Lewis. I don't recall their incidents getting headline coverage week-in, week-out.

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis is just too arrogant and cocksure for a lot of people.
Perhaps they wouldn't feel that if he wasn't winning as much ;)

Fact is, like Schumacher and Senna before him, Hamilton divides opinions. Hero or villain, it doesn't really matter because sport thrives on such characters.

[winer]

Lewis is just too arrogant and cocksure for a lot of people.

True. And I believe this attitude is reflected in his driving.

[jas123f1]

Probably best to revisit the video (not still photos). HAM brakes much later than RAI into turn 1. Than, as any competitive athlete should do, KOV went for the gap left by RAI getting out of the way of HAM. No penalties should have been served for turn 1.

Ok - I tog an extra look on the video …. And I can see that Lewis was braking more or les whole the way from the place there the white "exit line" from the pit to the right side of the track - you can see smoke from his tyres whole the way .. :)

So we can say that the penalty was right judged ..