Ecclestone wants standard F1 engine

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71225


I want Bernie and Max gone =(

[ArrowsFA1]

So would this effectively mean a return to the Cosworth kit-car? Everyone buying an off the shelf engine?

Can't see major manufacturers going for that.

[ioan]

Who's going to produce the engine?
And what are the big manufacturers going to do? Leave the sport?!

Seriously I think this will be followed by a less outrageous proposition comming from Max that everyone will quickly accept!

[truefan72]

this is utter rubbish from Bernie

That's the fastest way to completely kill off F1.

He and Max are effectively destroying F1.

Trust me if they continue down this path, they can count me out.

I lost interest in F1 before for a few years and am pretty close to losing it with all the proposed changes, gimmicks and biases.

I hope LH wins it this year, cause I am not sure I will be a fan of the sport after 2009

[Valve Bounce]

Who's going to produce the engine?
!


Ferrari, of course; who else?

[Hondo]

Standard CPU, standard engine, customer chassis, no electronic aids, slick tires,...blah blah blah. Bernie ought to let Tony George have his USGP back for his role in the CART breakup. What's going on now in F1 is nothing more than an admission that CART had it right all along.

Sort of like Windows anything being an admission that Apple had it right with the Mac all along.

Perhaps it would be better to let Max and Bernie's version of F1 die and see what rises from the ashes.

[MAX_THRUST]

Agree with Valve Bounce. Ferrari will get it.........

[cosmicpanda]

If anything, this will improve the viewing for us.

As it is, it was nice before the engine freeze to get the occasional press release saying "we've put a few more horsepower on the engine, now it'll be brilliant," but it was never noticeable in the race. Williams in 2006 (?) got up to 20,000 revs in the Brazil GP, I think, and we only noticed because of the graphic shown on TV.

If they hadn't told us about it, we wouldn't have noticed it.

The teams will have plenty to work on with the aerodynamics next year, KERS, slick tyres, and as always, the chassis.

[V12]

Just wait till human cloning is perfected and we'll have a "standard driver".

On a serious note, this would be the final straw that personally makes me stop watching altogether. I'd literally rather watch the thing die and see what comes of that, than watch that farce.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one. So let all the corporate sponsors and partners stick that in their pipe and smoke it.

[ioan]

Ferrari, of course; who else?

I might follow it then. :D

[Dave B]

We've already got A1GP for stunts like that.

F1 is supposed to be an arena where teams and manufacturers can showcase their talent and technology.

I hate to sound melodramatic, but a standard engine would effectively be the end of Formula One.

As ever with these two, I can only hope - as Ioan has already said - that it's a bargaining position to force the teams to accept a compromise.



Has anybody got anything hard I could bang my head against? :s

[V12]

On another serious note - does anyone else find themselves patronised and insulted when they come out with comments like "nobody watching would notice" when talking about standard engines and all that rubbish.

I'm interested in what engine developments have been done. I'm interested in when an engine breaks 20k rpm. It's a story. It's a talking point. I'm just using the engine thing as an example but the same could be applied to anything (tyres, chassis, teams switching engines, etc). When you reduce it to standardised machinery then it literally becomes what my school friends always derided it as when I started watching: a bunch of cars going round in circles.

I'm sick of being made to feel like, because I am interested in all various facets of the sport, technical and human, my opinion matters less than some fair-weather fan who has just decided to watch in the past year because they read about Lewis Hamilton's diamond encrusted helmet in The Sun or something. :mad:

[Valve Bounce]

Just wait till human cloning is perfected and we'll have a "standard driver".

.

I can just imagine 20 Lewis Hamilton's on the grid, all arguing as to who should start on pole. :p :

[Dave B]

On another serious note - does anyone else find themselves patronised and insulted when they come out with comments like "nobody watching would notice" when talking about standard engines and all that rubbish.
Yes. Me for one.

I consider myself intelligent enough to broadly understand the technology of motorsport, the strategy, the physical demands on a driver and so much more. I accept completely that F1 must reach out to a wider audience, but this constant dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common denominator is an insult.

I'm honestly waiting for the day when the drivers are replaced by celebrities and Simon sodding Cowell judges their performance before opening up the phone lines so we can vote at £1 a pop who we want to win. :dozey:

[ArrowsFA1]

On another serious note - does anyone else find themselves patronised and insulted when they come out with comments like "nobody watching would notice" when talking about standard engines and all that rubbish.
I thought along similar lines when Max was asked about "Ferrari International Assistance". He said no-one noticed when Raikkonen was penalised in Monaco because it was Ferrari. 1) It was noticed. 2) There was no fuss because it was a clear rule breach over which there could be no debate.

[I am evil Homer]

One engine might....just might.....make sense if they completely relaxed the aero and chassis rules to enable manufacturers to innovate. But they won't so it's a pointless idea.

[Areez2006]

To everyone arguing, I don't understand why everyone is up in arms! F1 racing did not start around the great depression, so imagine if it did! There were times when there weren't even championships held because of outside forces (WW2). There are things in the environment that forces things to change, so people sometimes have to adjust even when they do not want to. Im a college student, and I do not want to spend less but find myself forced to because of this economic crisis we are going through. It is essentially the same thing with F1. Imagine Redbull, Force India, STR, and Williams leaving the field...hmm, now we have Ferrari, McLaren, BMW, Toyota, Honda, and Renault. That's a 12 car field (and a very real possibility). I have not really heard reports of people knocking on F1's doors for entry. Porsche and Audi have not expressed interest right now, but maybe they might consider if costs were reduced. I don't know where I stand on common engines, but I definately know I don't want to see 12 cars rolling around on a track. THAT would be the death of F1.

[V12]

I just believe that artificially restricting any component on the car is just....well I just can't reconcile with it at all. I've accepted the standard ECU as I feel the ends justify the means, the single tyre has already pushed me to the edge, and now this.

I strongly believe the teams will adjust and cut their cloth accordingly. If they can afford to spend a few million on some aero development that gains them 0.1 of a second, they will, if they can't, then they won't and they'll be a tenth of a second slower - that's it.

The onus has to be on the individual teams to manage their spending - either they can afford to do something, or they can't. One thing I *would* welcome is scrapping prize money and replacing it with a completely even distribution of funds among the teams, but I'm sure there's too many vested interests at play to ever make that a reality :rolleyes:

Some teams might go to the wall, there may be a few years of much smaller grids than we'd like, but the whole financial thing is relative, and while it might take a few years for the whole thing to correct itself (like the worldwide financial situation as a whole), if everybody suffers the same financial hit, then relatively speaking we are all back where we started anyway.

But.....to be honest right now I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing implode and die on it's arse and see what grassroots movement(s) emerge from the ashes.

[Rusty Spanner]

I'm not sure Bernie really wants a standard engine because he knows that would make the sport less appealling to manufacturers.
What Bernie really wants is to reduce costs because he knows that unless they are brought under control F1 will loose manufacturers and teams. Without the manufacturers and the money they spend on marketing themselves and F1 the sport is commercially less valuable. And hey if Bernie can get the rules changed to reduce costs there will be less pressure on him and the banks who own F1 to give a greater share of the sports commercial income to the teams.

[Rusty Spanner]

I'm not sure Bernie really wants a standard engine because he knows that would make the sport less appealling to manufacturers.
What Bernie really wants is to reduce costs because he knows that unless they are brought under control F1 will loose manufacturers and teams. Without the manufacturers and the money they spend on marketing themselves and F1 the sport is commercially less valuable. And hey if Bernie can get the rules changed to reduce costs there will be less pressure on him and the banks who own F1 to give a greater share of the sports commercial income to the teams.


Having said all that just maybe a standard engine would be the lesser of possible evils in order to see F1 through what is definitely going to be a very difficult period for it.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I don't quite disagree with Bernie. We need racing competition, not spending competition. I'd hate to see Toyota pay their way to a GP win one day the way they did in Champ Car and IRL.

[jens]

Standard engines for 2010? I guess a few years after this we will have standard chassises, after all. :o Probably the idea of standard engine has risen after Bernie & Co have realized the engine freeze plan hasn't worked properly as some engine manufacturers have gained an advantage during the last two years, when they were not supposed to.

And finally what is the obsession everyone in different threads have with Toyota's budget and them being as the "Kings of Money Spending". Apparently the budgets of all six factory teams are quite similar, which means that some of those "high spenders" do inevitably have to lose.

[PolePosition_1]

As already stated, I don't think Bernie is very serious with this suggestion. I think he's just playing a game, helping force the FOTA into making a proposal which can be accepted.

And to be fair to Bernie, him and Max have to make an effort, as I can't see the FOTA making definititive decisions at any reasonable pace, simply because shared power doesn't work. Each have their own interests at stake. So I would describe this, and Max's statement regarding urgent need to make financial cuts are play tactics into making the teams move forward on their proposals.

If they were serious, and believed in this, I would be saddened, but I have quite a lot of respect for both these men, and I'd like to believe that these statements are simply play tactics.

[ioan]

On another serious note - does anyone else find themselves patronised and insulted when they come out with comments like "nobody watching would notice" when talking about standard engines and all that rubbish.

Yep, they obviously take the F1 fans for idiots.

I don't say that there aren't any, there are those who just watch a F1 race every now and than.
But to generalize like that is stupid cause as soon as F1 will have problems and the spectacle is low, like it was when MS dominated, only the real F1 fans stick to the TV to fill Bernie's pockets.

[hmmm - donuts]

Right now it seems that everything Bernie or Max wants is against the ethos of Formula 1. F1 should be best technology, innovation, as well as the best drivers. Restricting teams to a standard engine, and no doubt in future a standard chassis, virtually does away with the idea of a constructors championship. I reckon that restricting engine configuration to a V10 was bad enough. Personally I'd like to see V8s, V12s, V16s, etc. and the chance for constructors to be genuinely innovative. In the past we have seen the likes of the Brabham fan car, the 6 wheeled tyrrel, Lotus ground effect machines, etc and the ethos of F1 was to gain an advantage by exploiting the available technology. OK, some of these innovations were distinctly dodgy, but were nonetheless interesting. Now it's getting more and more lke A1GP. Not what F1 should be about.

Regards

[christophulus]

I can see both sides of the argument. With the current financial problems, I can see manufacturers being tempted to stay in the sport if it's made cheaper. But then again I can't see the major companies agreeing to have a rebadged Ferrari (or whoever makes it) engine in the back of their car, essentially being told what to do.

I agree with the thinking that F1 needs to be financially viable, but whether this is the right way to do it I'm not so sure..

[Ian McC]

I agree with the thinking that F1 needs to be financially viable, but whether this is the right way to do it I'm not so sure..

Some point down this line it will cease to be F1 and just become another motor racing series, to be the ultimate racing series isn't going to be cheap, part of F1 is about being at the edge of technology.

[AndyRAC]

Right now it seems that everything Bernie or Max wants is against the ethos of Formula 1. F1 should be best technology, innovation, as well as the best drivers. Restricting teams to a standard engine, and no doubt in future a standard chassis, virtually does away with the idea of a constructors championship. I reckon that restricting engine configuration to a V10 was bad enough. Personally I'd like to see V8s, V12s, V16s, etc. and the chance for constructors to be genuinely innovative. In the past we have seen the likes of the Brabham fan car, the 6 wheeled tyrrel, Lotus ground effect machines, etc and the ethos of F1 was to gain an advantage by exploiting the available technology. OK, some of these innovations were distinctly dodgy, but were nonetheless interesting. Now it's getting more and more lke A1GP. Not what F1 should be about.

Regards

I'm inclined to agree with this. When I first started watching F1 - we had the Turbo v N/A, then shortly later they were all N/A but V8, V10,V12- now look, all V8 engines. I understand the 'need' for cost cutting - but standard engines? No, sorry, it's bad enough with a control tyre. The top divisions of Motorsports should not be like this. It should be engine, tyre, fuel, etc, suppliers all against each other. Who was it who said competition improves the development of technology?

[Daniel]

i think if anything should be standardised it should be the chassis. I could care less if the cars all looked the same or similar but I do think the engines being standardised is better than nothing but a standard chassis would be better and would reduce costs a lot more. Whether the engines or chassis are standard or not it will always be the pinnacle of motorsport by nature. Call me silly but it just doesn't bother me as much as the two tyre regs and silly qualifying format and fuel rules.

[ioan]

i think if anything should be standardised it should be the chassis. I could care less if the cars all looked the same or similar but I do think the engines being standardised is better than nothing but a standard chassis would be better and would reduce costs a lot more. Whether the engines or chassis are standard or not it will always be the pinnacle of motorsport by nature. Call me silly but it just doesn't bother me as much as the two tyre regs and silly qualifying format and fuel rules.

You silly! :p :

[Jag_Warrior]

Just wait till human cloning is perfected and we'll have a "standard driver".


Please don't give Bernie & Max any ideas.

IMO, it's time for both of them to develop the next generation of leaders for F1 and get ready to pass the torch. They're both out of touch... well, maybe not Max, as he seems to like being touched (rather hard).

[nigelred5]

Personally I think it's a stupid idea. Remove the manufacturers and Their financial investment and what's left? Where"s the money for chassis development coing to come from?

I have to say, the 70's were great racing, but the majority of the teams were actually privateers with the exception of Ferrari and Lotus and the later addition of Renault. a single engine supplierwouldn't only upset the F1 applecart, it would set it on fire.

[wmcot]

Some point down this line it will cease to be F1 and just become another motor racing series...

And they'll rename it IRL-Europe!

Each year, I appreciate the ALMS and LMS series' more and more...

[wmcot]

I can just imagine 20 Lewis Hamilton's on the grid, all arguing as to who should start on pole. :p :

And we'd have Peter Windsor interviewing 20 Anthony Hamilton's! :eek:

[ShiftingGears]

And we'd have Peter Windsor interviewing 20 Anthony Hamilton's! :eek:

Oh, by that stage we'll have 20 Peter Windsors too.

Yay.

[wmcot]

Oh, by that stage we'll have 20 Peter Windsors too.

Yay.

Wow! Taking it a bit further, we might have 20 channels of 20 Peter Windsors interviewing 20 Anthony Hamiltons...It boggles the mind!

[Hawkmoon]

I don't think the "standard" engine will be made by any one manufacturer. I think the intent is to have the design of the engine given to the manufacturers for them to build. Everybody will have to build the same thing but Ferrari will still be powered by Ferrari and McLaren still powered by Mercedes etc. There won't be 20 Ferrari engined cars on the grid.

It's stupid idea any which way and a pox on Bernie's knob for even thinking about it.

[Dave B]

Oh, by that stage we'll have 20 Peter Windsors too.

Yay.

We've already got 248 Jeremy Clarksons per square mile (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DMuO-8S_0Wg)... in the world :p

[ioan]

I don't think the "standard" engine will be made by any one manufacturer. I think the intent is to have the design of the engine given to the manufacturers for them to build. Everybody will have to build the same thing but Ferrari will still be powered by Ferrari and McLaren still powered by Mercedes etc. There won't be 20 Ferrari engined cars on the grid.

It's stupid idea any which way and a pox on Bernie's knob for even thinking about it.

LOL! That really would be the stupid idea of the century in F1. Having 5 different production lines for the same engine. Cost cutting a la Ecclestone.
Or maybe the manufacturers will only produce the badges?

[AndyRAC]

LOL! That really would be the stupid idea of the century in F1. Having 5 different production lines for the same engine. Cost cutting a la Ecclestone.
Or maybe the manufacturers will only produce the badges?

What about each Manufacturer making a different part of the engine??? He he... :s mokin:

[V12]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71277


"Toyota motorsport president John Howett has warned Formula One chiefs against making any knee-jerk reactions to try and bring costs down dramatically because of the worldwide financial crisis."

Finally a voice of comparitive reason. I don't agree with everything that he says, but he appears to have his head screwed on a little more than most....


"I think that the danger is that a knee-jerk reaction could be catastrophic," he said at the Japanese Grand Prix. "In the end, if we have pressure, we will be told that's the budget and we will survive.

...

"Very simplistically, if we get told this is the budget for competing in this year, next year we will compete and we will do the best available job that we can within that.

Which is basically what I was saying...if teams find their budgets decreased, surely they can restrict their own spending accordingly, without the need for artificial budget caps (unenforceable) or any of this standard parts rubbish.

[Knock-on]

To everyone arguing, I don't understand why everyone is up in arms! F1 racing did not start around the great depression, so imagine if it did! There were times when there weren't even championships held because of outside forces (WW2).

Ummm, actually F1 was formulated in 1946 with the first non championship race that year and the first Championship was in 1950 starting at Silverstone.

I think you mean GP Racing which was in the late 19th century with the first race called a GP in 1901.

[Knock-on]

There are areas of cost that can be cut but this is a lame brained idea.

F1 is about building your car and racing it.

Why would Ferrari, McLaren or Toyota want to be involved with a sport where they race around with a Ford engine?

Answer: They wouldn't and would find a series where they can showcase their technology ergo the next F1.

[wedge]

Why would Ferrari, McLaren or Toyota want to be involved with a sport where they race around with a Ford engine?

Answer: They wouldn't and would find a series where they can showcase their technology ergo the next F1.

Toyota are using Chevy engines in NASCAR because they don't have a homogolated pushrod V8.

[ioan]

What about each Manufacturer making a different part of the engine??? He he... :s mokin:

And supply the other teams with faulty ones! :laugh:
Imagine a grid of broken down F1 autos! :rotflmao:

[FIA]

Bernie will die of old age soon and Max wil be gone by next year so I wouldn't worry.

[ShiftingGears]

Bernie will die of old age soon and Max wil be gone by next year so I wouldn't worry.

Just because Max promises he is going to quit in 2009, doesn't mean he will.

[Big Ben]

I´m sure Mr Burns came up with this idea purely for the sake of the sport. if I were involved in F1 whenever this old man opens his month I would think if my money were safe.

[Big Ben]

I´m sure Mr Burns came up with this idea purely for the sake of the sport. if I were involved in F1 whenever this old man opens his month I would think if my money were safe.

[Dave B]

NOOOOO!

Is this the FIA calling teams' bluff, or are they deadly serious?



FIA announces standard engine tender

By Jonathan Noble Friday, October 17th 2008, 07:42 GMT

The FIA is to open the tender process for a standard engine in Formula One from 2010, in a move that could drive manufacturers away from the sport.

Mosley wrote to teams last week telling them that he was considering introducing standard engines as a way of driving down costs. It comes ahead of a team principals' meeting in Geneva next week to discuss urgent cost cuts.

It was widely believed that Mosley's threat was simply a way of forcing through other changes, because of the hugely controversial nature of stipulating manufacturers run a standard engine.

However, in a shock statement issued in Shanghai on Friday afternoon, the FIA announced that it was to open the tender for a standard supply of engines - suggesting the plan was going ahead.

Full story:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71456

[ArrowsFA1]

Is this the FIA calling teams' bluff, or are they deadly serious?
I only hope that John Howlett was right when he said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71281) "...the negotiating stance historically in Formula One has been to put an extreme proposal on the table and then that encourages the teams to move in a direction, so we may just be, at the moment, purely in a negotiating tactic."

However, having put this out to tender it does seem as if Max is intent on using the FPA (http://www.formula-palmer-audi.com/) model for the future of F1.

:down:

[Daniel]

I personally don't have a problem with it though I think a single chassis would be better.

[ShiftingGears]

Dreadful. I hope Max and Bernie go away.

They talk about saving F1. If you standardise everything and take away the innovations...is it still F1?

Atrocious.

[F1boat]

This is very bizzare idea. F1 should not be a spec series.

[ArrowsFA1]

Formula One manufacturers will still be able to build their own engines when standard power units are introduced from the start of 2010, the FIA has confirmed."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71459

That makes everything alright then :rolleyes: It's beginning to sound more like NASCAR than anything else :laugh:

[Knock-on]

It just reminds me of the pillage of Hobbiton by Saruman at the end of the LotR.

[Daniel]

IF it makes for good racing then I'm happy :)

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71459

That makes everything alright then :rolleyes: It's beginning to sound more like NASCAR than anything else :laugh:

Yeah. As it stands the only thing that will set F1 from other open wheel series is the quality of the drivers. And the manufacturers, and even they aren't guaranteed.

[ShiftingGears]

IF it makes for good racing then I'm happy :)

Whilst I see where you're coming from, I think that F1 is, in essence, about technical innovation. F1 with standard engines, is not, in essence, F1. It just makes it a step closer to IRL, A1GP, and every other spec series. It's important that F1 retains this technical innovation. It's integral to F1 racing.

There is a balance between spectacle, innovation, and cost, but really, it's going to be skewed beyond a sensible balance.

To make F1 more economically affordable, the FIA is treating dandruff with decapitation. Or to put it another way, they are 'saving' F1 by destroying it.

[Daniel]

Innovation doesn't make the spectacle any better

[ShiftingGears]

Innovation doesn't make the spectacle any better

The innovations allowing the teams to have their own strengths and weaknesses as the season progresses is part of the spectacle. For me.

F1 is ultimately a sport. Whilst there should be a balance between on-track spectacle and technical innovation, it should incorporate the best of both.

If you want to know where a quest for spectacle completely kills the sporting aspect of a series, look at NASCAR. F1 should not be NASCAR without fenders.

[ArrowsFA1]

Bernie doesn't see (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71492)) why the manufacturers would leave the sport in the light of the new MAXCAR formula, but were they consulted?

Max is (was?) due to meet with FOTA after the Chinese GP (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71222)) to discuss cost cutting measures but has unilaterally gone ahead regardless :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

I don't think it should become NASCAR or anything. I just don't see a single engine kills the sportingness of it all. It might help the lesser teams to get just that bit closer. The chassis will still dictate who wins though.

[ioan]

Bernie doesn't see (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71492)) why the manufacturers would leave the sport in the light of the new MAXCAR formula, but were they consulted?

Max is (was?) due to meet with FOTA after the Chinese GP (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71222)) to discuss cost cutting measures but has unilaterally gone ahead regardless :rolleyes:

It strikes me how often he said "I hope" and "money"! Must be in his blood by now.

[ioan]

The innovations allowing the teams to have their own strengths and weaknesses as the season progresses is part of the spectacle. For me.

F1 is ultimately a sport. Whilst there should be a balance between on-track spectacle and technical innovation, it should incorporate the best of both.

If you want to know where a quest for spectacle completely kills the sporting aspect of a series, look at NASCAR. F1 should not be NASCAR without fenders.

:up:

[BDunnell]

I don't think it should become NASCAR or anything. I just don't see a single engine kills the sportingness of it all. It might help the lesser teams to get just that bit closer. The chassis will still dictate who wins though.

I instinctively don't like the idea of standardising engines. Smaller components, OK, but this would just be too fundamental a step-change in F1 (despite the fact that the Ford DFV almost created a single-engine formula by itself). And, perhaps most crucially, would it cast doubt on Ferrari's participation?

[BDunnell]

The innovations allowing the teams to have their own strengths and weaknesses as the season progresses is part of the spectacle. For me.

F1 is ultimately a sport. Whilst there should be a balance between on-track spectacle and technical innovation, it should incorporate the best of both.

If you want to know where a quest for spectacle completely kills the sporting aspect of a series, look at NASCAR. F1 should not be NASCAR without fenders.

Very good post.

[Dave B]

I just don't see a single engine kills the sportingness of it all. It might help the lesser teams to get just that bit closer.

Have a look at the Q1 and Q2 times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Japanese_Grand_Prix#Qualifying_2) from last week's GP at Fuji. It's hard to imagine how the cars could be much closer.

The top 17 cars are covered by one second, about the same amount of time it takes to actually say "one second"!

[Daniel]

I mean in terms of race pace. What are the gaps by the end of the race? :)

[Knock-on]

I mean in terms of race pace. What are the gaps by the end of the race? :)


I’ll do the top 10 finishers for the first 5 races

Aus 18 seconds apart from Naka who had been lapped so the spread was approx 0.3 seconds a lap.

Malay 18 seconds or 1.5 seconds a lap

Bahrain 77 seconds or 1.35 seconds a lap

Spain 53 seconds or 0.8 seconds a lap

Turkey 76 seconds or 1.3 seconds a lap

So, it works out that of the 10 ten finishers, there is almost 1 second a lap difference on average between the best and the worst.

That seems pretty close to me.

[Daniel]

For the top ten. Then there are a bunch of guys who are paying a lot of money to finish a fair way back and not get a lot of coverage.

[ArrowsFA1]

So, it works out that of the 10 ten finishers, there is almost 1 second a lap difference on average between the best and the worst.
I wonder how that compares with other series...?

[Giuseppe F1]

Doesnt a standard engine also mean that alot of people will end up losing their jobs and being made unemployed as teams will no longer have the need for many of their engine team?

[ArrowsFA1]

Doesnt a standard engine also mean that alot of people will end up losing their jobs and being made unemployed as teams will no longer have the need for many of their engine team?
A pont made by, again, John Howlett of Toyota:

"Obviously the social issue is what will happen to the motor sport infrastructure and it goes beyond teams. The UK, in particular, I think has a multi-million dollar motor sport industry which could be destroyed and that, I think, should be something that people do worry about and take into consideration."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71277

[Tazio]

While they are at it I think they should just make all cars R.C. ;)

[truefan72]

another stellar move by F1 that will ensure it's demise

Toyota, Honda, BMW and probably Renault will leave the sport.
Ferrari of course will try and wijn the engine tender, which of course will ensure that McLaren depart the sport.

So by 20011 we will have RBR, STR, Ferrari and Williams running in an 8 car series, with maybe Ferrari adding a B-team.

By 2012 F1 will reverse the single engine series but by then the damage will be done as most teams will have formed their breakaway series.

Hopefully LH will win the WCC this year and I can then feel less guilty for not bothering to watch F1 anymore. Because as things stand,I am about 70% on the way of not bothering with F1 anymore.

Maybe I'll get into LMS next year.

[Daniel]

I personally don't see the big issue. Ferrari didn't leave when the silver guys won the tender for the ecu's. F1 will go on as before, the uber psycho purists will complain and the cost of being a competitive team will go down and the competition will be a bit closer. Perhaps i'm wrong and this will totally ruin F1 but I just don't see the big deal. Ferrari aren't going to quit and neither will the silver guys.

[wmcot]

IF it makes for good racing then I'm happy :)

Wait until they standardize the chassis and gearbox to save even more money - then you'll be watching F1GP!

As for me, the technology is part of the F1 fabric. It's what makes the series different (or used to.) If you want to watch close racing and don't care about the technical differences, watch NASCAR, IRL, A1GP or any of a dozen series.

Personally, I find myself moving into the ALMS racing series. They have numerous chassis and engine manufacturers, many specs of engine type, several tire suppliers, different racing fuels, and probably more technology than F1 has at the moment (not to mention lots of overtaking!) Oh yeah, penalties are usually enforced within 1 or 2 laps of questionable driving, too.

[Daniel]

I agree that GT cars are better than F1 cars. To be honest I don't care for all the manufacturers and associated faff. I want good drivers and a variety of teams able to field good cars.

[Hondo]

They could save themselves lots of bickering by just adopting the old CART specs and regulations, but drop the turbos. Want to buy a chassis? Ok. Want to build your own? Ok. Build an engine or buy one, either is fine.

[gloomyDAY]

They could save themselves lots of bickering by just adopting the old CART specs and regulations, but drop the turbos. Want to buy a chassis? Ok. Want to build your own? Ok. Build an engine or buy one, either is fine.CART, the best OWR series ever.

I'm pretty much fed up with F1. I'm going to Laguna Seca tomorrow to watch the ALMS. GT racing it is, and I don't feel a shadow of remorse.

[wmcot]

CART, the best OWR series ever.

I'm pretty much fed up with F1. I'm going to Laguna Seca tomorrow to watch the ALMS. GT racing it is, and I don't feel a shadow of remorse.

I'll be watching both, but I bet I'll enjoy the ALMS race more!

[ShiftingGears]

I don't think it should become NASCAR or anything. I just don't see a single engine kills the sportingness of it all. It might help the lesser teams to get just that bit closer. The chassis will still dictate who wins though.

But technical innovation is integral to the sport of F1, and this just shuts another avenue whereby teams can get a competitive advantage.

What Bernie and Max are trying to do is 'save' F1 by effectively killing it.

[ShiftingGears]

CART, the best OWR series ever.

I'm pretty much fed up with F1. I'm going to Laguna Seca tomorrow to watch the ALMS. GT racing it is, and I don't feel a shadow of remorse.

CCWS had great potential. All it needed was marketing, and proper management, and it could've been much more than it was.

It was a perfect alternative to F1. If management was competant, there would've been less street circuits, higher calibre drivers, and CCWS would still exist. Some of the circuits were excellent, and had variety that F1 still misses.

Assen - http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GBUscnMxwiM&feature=related
Road America - http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9QX4DKt0H9g&feature=related
Mont Tremblant - http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=L7T0BEIMnPU
Surfers Paradise - http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfLM5W4XcM&feature=related

What there needs to be is a spec racing series that is cheap, spectacular (power >>> mechanical grip >>>> aerodynamic grip), and without gimmicks. So F1 audiences have an alternative if they don't like the technological battles.

But F1 should not try to be a spec racing series. Because then it won't be F1. Other series must fill that void. At the moment there is not that excellent alternative like CCWS was, because imo:
IRL cars are slow, and ovals are boring.
NASCAR is spectacle for spectacles sake, caution flags make the racing before the last 10 laps irrelevant, and ovals are boring.
A1GP is a joke.
Soccer League is a joke.
Feeder series are, by definition, second rate.

[speeddurango]

huh?

[Hondo]

CART was a great series, especially from the aspect of no driver aids. Teams could build their own chassis and engines if they so desired and had the money. Most of the customer chassis were also competitive. I think CART was more of a drivers skill series and F1 was more of a technology series where driving skills alone were not enough. The F1 driver also needed to be able to understand and properly use the technology to his advantage. I think JV always fought the technology and was able to get away with it to some extent until slick tires were banned. If Max and Bernie want to do away with the technology aspect of F1, they may as well adopt the CART format. In addition, adopting the CART format might result in some American teams wanting to play.

[V12]

Wow...well as someone who's always traditionally been against the huge manufacturer involvement in F1 that we've seen since the turn of the millennium, here they could actually do some good for once.

If they don't get to continue building their own cars, I hope they all withdraw and leave Bernie and Max's 2010 series formerly known as F1 spluttering on its knees and dying a horrible, painful death, I am sick to death of the snobbish attitude displayed by them and some others in believing that the fans are so thick not to care about differences in technology that have been a key, irremovable part of the sport's fabric since its inception in the late 1800s.

It's NOT all about "the show", and you DON'T measure how good or enjoyable a series is as inversely proportionate to the speed differential between fastest and slowest. That's a very shallow viewpoint.

I *may* watch in 2009, but to be honest that's more just to check out the ad free coverage the possibility of The Chain again. Come 2010 I'm done unless a complete 180 is done.

If I was in charge of the ACO or the Panoz ALMS organisation I'd be rolling a fat one to celebrate right now, and probably giving Max and Bernie a call to thank them in advance for all the new fans they've generously donated.

If someone can step into the breach and offer motor racing fans a single-seater/driver, multi chassis/engine/tyre, non-homologated, bull****-free motor racing series, they will probably make themselves a hell of a lot of money by anyone other Bernie Ecclestone's standards.

[wmcot]

I'll be watching both, but I bet I'll enjoy the ALMS race more!

Told you so!

I watched them both and the ALMS at Laguna Seca was far better.

If you want just one example - there were dozens of lead changes throughout the 4 classes! :)

[wmcot]

Wow...well as someone who's always traditionally been against the huge manufacturer involvement in F1 that we've seen since the turn of the millennium, here they could actually do some good for once.

If they don't get to continue building their own cars, I hope they all withdraw and leave Bernie and Max's 2010 series formerly known as F1 spluttering on its knees and dying a horrible, painful death, I am sick to death of the snobbish attitude displayed by them and some others in believing that the fans are so thick not to care about differences in technology that have been a key, irremovable part of the sport's fabric since its inception in the late 1800s.

It's NOT all about "the show", and you DON'T measure how good or enjoyable a series is as inversely proportionate to the speed differential between fastest and slowest. That's a very shallow viewpoint.

I *may* watch in 2009, but to be honest that's more just to check out the ad free coverage the possibility of The Chain again. Come 2010 I'm done unless a complete 180 is done.

If I was in charge of the ACO or the Panoz ALMS organisation I'd be rolling a fat one to celebrate right now, and probably giving Max and Bernie a call to thank them in advance for all the new fans they've generously donated.

If someone can step into the breach and offer motor racing fans a single-seater/driver, multi chassis/engine/tyre, non-homologated, bull****-free motor racing series, they will probably make themselves a hell of a lot of money by anyone other Bernie Ecclestone's standards.

I'll still watch (it's better than most other things on TV) but I just won't be as passionate. The whole demise of F1 reminds me of the Can-Am series I watched as a kid. The cars were powerful, faster than F1 cars at the same tracks, and unlimited as far as innovation went...the they started adding more and more rules and the series died off...sound familiar? :(

[AndyRAC]

As a Motorsport fan of many disciplines - this is just wrong. F1 is meant to be the 'pinnacle'. Standard parts are fine for the junior classes, even for minor/small parts, but not for engines, chassis, tyres. Where is the technology improvement going to come from, it's bad enough now with them all using V8 engines. Sorry, there must be better ways to cut costs than standardising parts. Try cutting the ridiculous entry fee and the fee to stage a race.
MotoGP has just gone to a standard tyre supplier, thanks to Bridgestone - wrong move there as well, have Michelin upset everybody that much?? The top tiers of Motorsport should be a test of rival Manufacturers of tyres, engines, etc
Fine, standardise everything - just don't call it F1.