Did NASCAR make the right call giving Tony the win?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Interesting. I have been on the road all day and looking forward to what people thought of Talladega and the unusual events that are plate racing and .....you guys have said NOTHING?

So let me suggest NASCAR made the right call in not giving Regan Smith the win but I suggest no one can blame him for trying since the unofficial and somewhat official people at NASCAR have allowed "Anything goes" on going below the yellow do not pass line at Dega and Daytona. The rule is clear and was read clear in the driver's meeting but lets face the reality NASCAR has made some goofy judgements on this score in the past.

Tony blocked but I don't think could necessary be blamed or punished for it. It was his perogative as leader. If Smith and Menard had pulled out coming off of 4 rather than waiting to hit the trioval, they may have pulled it off.......

[MD24]

Interesting. I have been on the road all day and looking forward to what people thought of Talladega and the unusual events that are plate racing and .....you guys have said NOTHING?

We did, the thread was deleted

[carracing]

Sorry I missed the thread - did it get too heated? I'm a Tony fan, but even I was left scratching my head at the end of the race... I saw the official statement from NASCAR about the rule today but I hate that Tony's only win this year will remain tarnished in so many eyes. :(

[Mark in Oshawa]

The thread was deleted? For the love of GOD why? What the hell is wrong with just editing stupid comments and having an intelligent discussion?

[RaceFanStan]

Interesting. I have been on the road all day and looking forward to what people thought of Talladega
and the unusual events that are plate racing and .....you guys have said NOTHING?.......

We did, the thread was deleted

Sorry I missed the thread - did it get too heated?
I'm a Tony fan, but even I was left scratching my head at the end of the race... :(
Yes, I guess it probably got real heated when I applauded NASCAR for making the right call.
I went to go back to the thread and post some more to it but it was gone. :eek:
I'm the NASCAR moderator, I searched for it but whoever deleted it erased it completely. :s

[Mark in Oshawa]

Stan....I would be demanding answers then. If we cant have an intelligent discussion about one of the most interesting finishs all year, then this board is on life support. The free exchange of ideas and having a discussion of where NASCAR maybe is their own worst enemy when it comes to rules interpretation is something I was hoping espeically after reading the lead story on NASCAR.com today.

It was good to see Smoke break through and get his win...but I feel bad for Regan Smith. He deluded himself into thinking you could pass there on the last lap.....and he perhaps had reason for that delusion.....

[harvick#1]

read my sig.

if Dale Jr made the pass, then it would've been deemed legal and he was shoved down, cough cough 2003 ;)

for all the Anti-nascar fans, the race finally gave tehm the valid point that Nascar = WWE

[colinspooky]

The troubleis with the yellow line rule is this.

If you allow passing under the yellow on the last lap, where would that legally start? Back stretch? In the turns? 100 yards from the line, 200, 237, 369 yards? Even if you decide a distance, you would find yourself arguing one day about "did he go under the yellow line 2 inches too early?"

Tough one to call, so best just keep it to no passing under the yellow.

That said, you have the forced down problem, and to be honest, that is such a fluid problem, it can never be fully legislated for, so best use the "decide individually" reasoning, no other way unless you have full telemetry in the cars.

And lord knows that is never going to happen - they still haven't heard of fuel injection and low profile tyres that don't explode every 20 laps.

etc etc etc.

My view - Tony wins.

Controversial mind.

:rolleyes:

[harvick#1]

http://www.thatsracin.com/topstories/story/19584.html


Mike Helton
"This is your warning: race above the yellow line. If, in NASCAR's judgment, you go below the yellow line to improve your position, you will be black-flagged. If in NASCAR's judgment you force someone below the yellow line (in an effort to stop him from passing you), you may be black-flagged."


thanks Helton for sounding like a real jackass. so even though Tony dive bombed to block Regan from getting underneath, it was not enough evidence to black flag Tony also.

I guess since every driver was allowed to slam draft again in the corners, Nascar just sort of threw the book away, but when Regan makes a pass after being forced to the apron, they quickly change the rule to keep a Chaser in front and win :rolleyes: morons

[Meaux]

Yes

[Mark in Oshawa]

Harvick. The rule is you cannot pass under the yellow. Period. Get OVER IT!!!! As for Tony forcing him down, that is BS too. If Regan had half a lick of common sense he would have tried to go outside BEFORE they hit the damn tri-oval. He had Menard, Burton and Amirola back there and they all would have gone with him. He went down there because a lot of the drivers figured NASCAR would let it go in the last lap. THAT is NASCAR's fault but it doesn't excuse Smith. He did what he did because all the drivers were fooled into thinking anything can go on the last lap.

When NASCAR makes stupid decisions and makes up dumb excuses to justify it, they make things worse later on. Giving Jr. a break on this a few years back or Benson in the truck race last year at Daytona on something like this was stupid and wrong. The rule states you cannot pass under the yellow. PERIOD. What they did Sunday was to FINALLY make the right call.

This pity party for Regan Smith is a pile of BS. You guys are always looking for the conspiracy and that is fun and all but none of you are Regan Smith fans. This is all about raising hell about something that was done you didn't agree with years ago.

NASCAR isn't blameless for allowing people to think it was legal but they finally read their own damn rule and enforced it.

IF you want to discuss how inconsistent they are that is fine, but stop the fiction Regan Smith got screwed. They followed the rules the way they should always do. If it was Jr. Down there I would be arguing the rule the same way and I am a Jr. Fan. If your boy Harvick was in Tony's position, I have a feeling your wonderful defense of Smith would be awfully damned quiet......

[harvick#1]

IF you want to discuss how inconsistent they are that is fine, but stop the fiction Regan Smith got screwed. They followed the rules the way they should always do. If it was Jr. Down there I would be arguing the rule the same way and I am a Jr. Fan. If your boy Harvick was in Tony's position, I have a feeling your wonderful defense of Smith would be awfully damned quiet......

no it wouldn't, in all honesty Regan got to the inside of Tony before being forced down, just look at the replay, Tony came down on him and Regan would've spun him out if he didn't move down below, then Tony kept on the apron until after teh tri-oval.

the IRL wasn't afraid to penalize the leader for blocking second place in the final laps, this is a valid point in how Nascar protects its top drivers, if the theory was the other way, Tony would've yelled at Nascar he was forced low and they would've granted him his wish. Tony was mad he got schooled by a rookie by getting to the inside before forcing him on the apron and played the whining card in which he forced upon himself.

Helton can't enforce a rule if his life depended on it, the entire field should've been black flagged for bump drafting in the corners (I thought that was a safety rule)

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

There is a aurgument that maybe tony did move down on him. So i can get you thinking there. But i dont know if there was a whole lot of contact.

Where did it come up about it being legal to pass on the last lap anyway?. Just from NASCAR's passed leniency?.

Ive never been a fan of the yellow line rule, they aways used to pass down there why the hell not now.

[harvick#1]

There is a aurgument that maybe tony did move down on him. So i can get you thinking there. But i dont know if there was a whole lot of contact.

Where did it come up about it being legal to pass on the last lap anyway?. Just from NASCAR's passed leniency?.


the CTS race at Daytona when Benson drove below the line and passed someone, Hunter said "anything goes on the last lap"

[Lee Roy]

Ive never been a fan of the yellow line rule, they aways used to pass down there why the hell not now.

Safety. Racing below the yellow line was fine down the straights, but it became a crisis when they got to the turns and everyone below the yellow line had to merge back into the pack.

From what I heard, it was the drivers who asked for the rule.

HEY, MY 5,000TH POST. I've really got to get a life.

[dwboogityfan]

I don't have a problem with the yellow line rule but in this instance I do think Regan was forced down by Tony. If they were penalising Regan they should have penalised Smoke as well and given Paul Menard the win. It could have made the world of difference to Regan's career which likely could see him out of a drive at the end of the season.

[jeffmr2]

I'm with the 59% of racefans who voted that Regan should have been the winner at nascar.com
It just seems to me whenever there are difficult circumstances at the race end requiring a judgement call by nascar they get it horribly wrong- jr at michigan and Biffle in Kansas last year spring to mind.
I love my nascar racing but some decisions made do destroy the sports credability i reckon.

[tstran17_88]

Yes...unless your last name is Earnhardt...then no! :p

[oldhippie]

yes

[jslone]

Yes Tony should have won the race,But no to the fact of putting Smith to 18th,thats a bunch of crap.Nascar should have allowed him to stay in second place.Tony did the blocking like the good driver he is.Smith knew the rules and tried to advance his position.Also the spotters should have been in quiestion.Where were Smiths spotters?

[Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left]

I still cant make up my mind. Ive watched it a few more times and still cant decide if NASCAR made the right choice or not. At least they made a choice and didnt let him go to the podium and then penelize him.

Part of me thinks that when tony started coming down, and theres a bit of contact what would have happened if Smith hadnt moved?. What would have happened if when Tony moved down on him he turned right into the quater panel and spun Tony out?. Would we all be saying "Smith won by cheating like Vickers did a couple of years ago"???.

[Lee Roy]

Restrictor Plate racing sucks. This is why I rarely watch any of it.

[harvick#1]

I don't have a problem with the yellow line rule but in this instance I do think Regan was forced down by Tony. If they were penalising Regan they should have penalised Smoke as well and given Paul Menard the win. It could have made the world of difference to Regan's career which likely could see him out of a drive at the end of the season.

thats only in hockey where they penalize both guys for tripping and diving (which is it, it can't be both)

Tony clearly came down on Regan to block, but Regan was already there and Tony pushed him to the apron. Nascar I'm sure was sayin, Regan or Tony, thats an easy choice.



tstran17_88Yes...unless your last name is Earnhardt...then no! :p :

sad but true, Nascar wouldn't have enough balls to penalize Jr if he did that, oh wait, 2003 rings a bell :mark:

[RaceFanStan]

The point some people seem to be missing is that Smith ADVANCED his position !
Forced below the yellow line or not it was Smith's decision to keep going for the pass !
Smith's penalty is valid & he has no reason to cry, he broke the rule, it's simple really !

Furthermore the anti-Stewart people need to get over it, Tony Stewart WON !!! http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

I expect any driver who had done the same thing would have gotten the same penalty.
Moaning about driver favoritism seems to surface any time some people's favorite driver didn't win. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[Cindy_AL]

We did, the thread was deleted

:eek: The only thread I was currently subscribed to got deleted. I was wondering what happened.

Think it was confusing watching it on TV and wondering who won? Imagine being on pit road without any commentator, seeing 2 teams celebrating. Being the Tony hater I am, of course I was hoping he wouldnt win and we could experience the typical sarcastic post race interview after Tony finished 2nd again at Dega. :laugh: As much as I hated it, I did force myself to visit victory lane to take some pictures. Guess my love for photography is greater than my hate for Stewart. (it also made up for it when I was in the background of the Victory Lane show on Speed Channel)

Hated to see Jr get wrecked. Especially after all of the free Amp's I consumed by his hauler. ;) We were fortunate enough to be given some very special hats from a person we met last spring from his team. They are the "Chase" team hats given to all of the teams who made it into the Chase. Pretty cool. :D

For those who have been around here for awhile, you will be happy to know that I didnt step on Jeffypoo. Hated that he was caught up in a wreck too. :(

I was gonna post a few pics..... any preferences?

[MD24]

For those who have been around here for awhile, you will be happy to know that I didnt step on Jeffypoo.

:D

[ms0362]

It was a sorry race. I didn't care what the call was at the end,,,,,what?,,,we had maybe 10 cars running around without damage? I'm sick of restrictor plate racing.

[Old3Fan]

I wish someone would enter the rule on this thread. I think the rule is that you cannot pass under the yellow line but if by accident or being forced below the line you do pass you are supposed to let the passed one go back by you and then you are not pentalized.

[carracing]

What doesn't help is when you are watching the broadcast and the announcers don't really know the NASCAR rules and throw out things like "the yellow line doesn't count in the last lap" or "anything goes in the last lap" - or whatever they said (I don't have the direct quote). It plants ideas in fans' heads and makes them get all pissed off. As always, it ain't over until the fat lady sings, so once France gets out there and decrees his final opinion on the matter, there's no use in debating it.

Personally - as a Tony fan, as a NASCAR fan, etc. - I view this year as a TOTAL and utter wash. NASCAR had better clean up their act for 2009. True fans are starting to drop like flies and those fly-by-night "trendy" fans who demanded the sushi and wine tasting at the speedways have already moved on to bigger and more popular things. Time to get the core fans back and the way to do that is to get back to basics - and some REAL racing and REAL rules.

[Lee Roy]

What doesn't help is when you are watching the broadcast and the announcers don't really know the NASCAR rules and throw out things like "the yellow line doesn't count in the last lap" or "anything goes in the last lap" - or whatever they said (I don't have the direct quote). It plants ideas in fans' heads and makes them get all pissed off. As always, it ain't over until the fat lady sings, so once France gets out there and decrees his final opinion on the matter, there's no use in debating it.

Personally - as a Tony fan, as a NASCAR fan, etc. - I view this year as a TOTAL and utter wash. NASCAR had better clean up their act for 2009. True fans are starting to drop like flies and those fly-by-night "trendy" fans who demanded the sushi and wine tasting at the speedways have already moved on to bigger and more popular things. Time to get the core fans back and the way to do that is to get back to basics - and some REAL racing and REAL rules.

I'm looking forward to the way it used to be. I could drive over to Dover or down to Richmond, on race day, buy a good ticket, see the race, and get home at a reasonable time. I'm happy that NASCAR outstripped all other forms of racing in the US, but I think I was happier in the day when it wasn't so popular.

[slorydn1]

I know I'm late having been MIA but I gotta go there on this one.

The rule states if you go below the yellow line and advance your position you WILL be black flagged.

If you force someone below the yellow line you MAY be black flagged.

By rule, Tony won the race.Period

But the rule SUCKS.

I said that when Jeff Gordon dumped Kevin Harvick in the 2002 Daytona 500 just before the entrance to turn 1 causing the big one. The reason why he did it? Because Harvick blocked him down and he had only two choices. Go below the line, lift, and lose a ton of positions, or hold his line and dump Harvick. He did what he had to to keep from getting penalized (either by NASCAR or self imposed by lifting).

I said that when Tony Stewart was penalized in the 2001 Pepsi 400 in the closing laps after being smacked down below the line (I wanna say the offender was Sterling Marlin but I don't remember for sure). Does anybody remember the video of Tony Stewart all up in Gary Nelson's grill after the race with Joe Gibbs straining to hold him back?

I said that when Kenny Wallace had his 1st decent finish in a long time wiped out at Talledega in 2003 when he got
pushed down below the yellow line in the tri-oval on the last lap (in exactly the same spot Regan Smith was in this year).

If the rule had been effect pre-2001:

Rusty Wallace would have won at least 1 Daytona 500;
Jeff Gordon would be two wins shorter ('97 and '99 500's) when he passed on the APRON going into turn 1 (Wallace was one victim and I think Elliot was the other)
Dale Sr would not have had win #76 (his left side tires were in the GRASS down the backstretch on one of those final laps when he went 18th to 1st in the 2000 Winston 500 (and the million $ fan would have been PISSED, remember the no bull 5?)

The rule is in place for "safety reasons". Riiigght. If you believe that I have some swamp land in central Florida for sale, too.

If its such a safety concern, show me video of just one big wreck, at either Daytona or Talladega, that was caused by someone going down there to make a pass. Show me one, just one, and I'll shut up for good. Some of you on here have large video collections so this shouldn't be to hard to do, if there is one.

If its such a safety concern, why is it not the rule at EVERY TRACK? Why, on 32 weekends every year, do I have to listen to an announcer almost apologize for a great pass we just saw, painfully explaining that its not out of bounds to do that here at Track X, only Daytona and Talladega?
If its such a safety concern, impose it everywhere (please don't, i'm being sarcastic because I don't believe it is).

I've already given an example of one caused BY the rule.

Going forward, what message did nascar send to Regan Smith? What they said to him, and all the other drivers, is the next time somone comes towards you like that, put them in the fence and drive on. It almost worked for Gordon in '02. Harvick and most of the rest of the field was torn up, Gordon was leading on a late race restart when he was spun out of line by Sterling Marlin causing the damage that Sterling was penalized for fixing during the red flag. If that didn't happen Gordon would have easily won, all of his competition was taken out in the big wreck.

The only the the rule has accomplished was that it has given NASCAR another tool for managing the outcomes of the races, right up there with freezing the field..Nascar gets to say who goes where, instead of the racers deciding that on the track

Pull those belts tight because next years plate races will be very interesting.

[harvick#1]

holy **** long time no see :wave:

you also forgot in 03 when Jr got punted below, he was never black flagged and still advanced his position :p :

[slorydn1]

holy **** long time no see :wave:

you also forgot in 03 when Jr got punted below, he was never black flagged and still advanced his position :p :

I didn't forget, just didn't think it was germane to the point I was making. This brings up another subject, which is selective enforcement, another issue for another day!

:beer:

[Mark in Oshawa]

They enforced the rule as it is written. Tony wins. Now we can have another conversation on how dumb the rule is. I personally think they should'nt have the yellow line until 100 yards before the start of the corners. Let them run down there on the straights and trioval. That said...they don't and these lines are there because it is only at these races the whole pack runs inches apart for lap after lap. I never saw an accident from a guy running down there and getting caught on the apron either but I think the potential is frightening.

I dislike plate racing more and more year after year.....and the way NASCAR has manipulated the rules at times (and refuses to print a simplified log book for fans and press) says to me they reserve the right to change things and the hell what we think. That said...as I posted, they actually enforced the rule as it is written. Now if they did that a few times in the past......maybe we are not having this argument.

[RaceFanStan]

For those of you who may not know the reason for the yellow line rule @ restrictor-plate tracks ...
it should be called the "Jeff Gordon Rule" because NASCAR got tired of being accused of favortism ...
Jeff Gordon used it to dominate passing @ restrictor-plate tracks ...
it was impossible to prevent Jeff Gordon from passing another driver by going below the yellow line ...
so they made the rule to give the other drivers a chance. :s

[harvick#1]

I never saw an accident from a guy running down there and getting caught on the apron either but I think the potential is frightening.

talladega 1999, Skinner was trying to block Stewart. Mike pushed Tony to the apron and they both managed to go into the grass, they spun and took out about 15 cars

[Lee Roy]

talladega 1999, Skinner was trying to block Stewart. Mike pushed Tony to the apron and they both managed to go into the grass, they spun and took out about 15 cars


Yep. The cars running below the yellow line at Talladega and Daytona was crazy. I remember a number of times things happened. Wasn't that bad crash that Elliott Sadler had in turn 3 at Tally a result of cars being below the yellow line?

It definitely was a safety issue.

It's one of the problems caused by that stupid plate racing. I hate it. MR. FRANCE, TEAR DOWN THAT BANKING AT TALLADEGA AND DAYTONA!!!!!!!!

[slorydn1]

Yep. The cars running below the yellow line at Talladega and Daytona was crazy. I remember a number of times things happened. Wasn't that bad crash that Elliott Sadler had in turn 3 at Tally a result of cars being below the yellow line?

It definitely was a safety issue.

It's one of the problems caused by that stupid plate racing. I hate it. MR. FRANCE, TEAR DOWN THAT BANKING AT TALLADEGA AND DAYTONA!!!!!!!!

The Elliot Sadler 2003 Wreck in Turn 3 was Sadler deciding he needed to get from the middle lane to the low lane and the guy on low lane said I'm not getting penalized for you and he got hooked in the left rear. The car on the inside held his line.

The 1999 'dega issue between the 31 and 20 was the 31 was blocking. His block ran them both down there (and on into the grass) causing the wreck, not the fact that the 20 was trying to pass down there. That one would have happened even if the rule had been in place because those 2 (especially Skinner) would not have given an inch, and we would have heard He's below the line, and He blocked me down there for a week after. So, lets outlaw blocking, too. Yet another judgement call for NASCAR to make.....

[harvick#1]

you may get blackflagged for blocking as per Mr. Helton. thats a serious joke,

the IRL was not afraid to take the win away from Helio for blocking Justin in the closing laps of the race.

the part were they drive below the yellow line isn't bad, its the blocking that gets all the drivers injured. I also thought slam drafting wasn't allowed anymore, but Nascar didn't care, so much for safety, I guess they think the car is so safe that no one will ever get hurt in it :rolleyes:

[bowers]

I know it's been a while but that was the worst decision I've seen in racing in my entire life. The yellow line doesn't really play a factor into how I see it, as Tony forced Regan down there... it's 100% obvious, clear as crystal... if someone is refuting that I have a bone to pick with them. Should Tony have done that... of course he should have. Should Tony have wont he race? No was in hell!

What's worse was that Regan got shuffled down to something like 19th place after all that. I could possibly stomach giving him 2nd after a rightuous WIN, but demoting him for that??? The message from NASCAR is now to wreck the field instead of using common sense when it comes to a close Talladega finish. Not even being a Regan fan I e-mailed the team, and they politely replied saying we agree to disagree with NASCAR and that they appreciated my views on it.

As someone said earlier if it was Jr. no way would it have been Tony's. There would've been a riot had they treated Dale like they treated Regan. It's a shame NASCAR made that senseless decision and it made me lose a whole bunch of respect of the officiating after that race.

[muggle not]

Regan is a good kid and i would have loved to see him win the race. However, the rules state that Tony is the winner. If we are going to fault anyone, fault the current rules.