McLaren: A team that does not win in 10 years

[mstillhere]

I am not too sure how thrilled Mercedes is having to put so mach money and resources in the McLAren team. The results achieved by McLaren are way less than flatering. In fact, if we compare the numbers of the two teams, we see an incredible difference:

FERRARI
World championships won: 15 (the last one: 2007)
Number of GP won: 206
Pole Positions: 200
Number of fastest laps: 212

McLaren
World championships won: 8 (the last one: 1998)
Number of GP won: 161
Pole Positions: 138
Number of fastest laps: 135

This year, like last year, McLaren seems to be poised to win the world championship. However, last year at this time Lewis was 21 points ahead.This year he's 7. So, mathematically the chances for him losing again are greater this year that they were last year. In case McLaren and Lewis win this year, this victory is not going to put McLaren in the lead of world championships -like many forget - and it is not going to make Lewis better that MS, either. Both McLaren and Lewis are way far from that. Way far.

[ShiftingGears]

Do you make this thread every six months?

[Hawkmoon]

Well, Ferrari went 21 years without a driver's title and 16 with out constructor's title so McLaren have a ways to go to match Ferrari in that department.

I desperately hope that McLaren continues on their championship-less path for many years to come but I don't really see your point.

[Rollo]

The logic to this thread fails in principle.

Firstly you're comparing a car company to a racing team. Ferrari in principle IS NOT an automobile manufacturer. The reason Ferrari exists is to go motor racing; that's it. They happen to sell motor cars to subsidise their operations, they do not sell cars as their primary aim.

Secondly, what's to say that MB have had a "terrible" run anyway? Personally I'm not aware necessarily of what's come out of the R&D department (even though some people will disagree - 7G Tronic anyone?) but anything they've learnt from motor racing will most certainly have been ploughed back into the road cars if it made things cheaper or better to produce.
Also and in relation to this - that's 8 years of media exposure that they've had. An F1 car is an expensive billboard and even if you know nothing of the drivers, or of the championship results, you will have seen and heard of their exploits on track.

Please rubbish Renault, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Ford who Jaguar between them have only amassed 6 titles. That's a truly pathetic effort.

Thirdly, boo to McLaren for not actually existing until 1963. How dare they not accumulate titles for the 13 years that they weren't in existance. And how crap are Mercedes for insensitively withdrawing from motor racing for 40 years after they car killed 82 people at Le Mans? How utterly rude. They shoudl have been producing engines just so you could compare equal statistics.

[gloomyDAY]

Do you make this thread every six months? :rotflmao:

[Rollo]

I am not too sure how thrilled Mercedes is having to put so mach money and resources in the McLAren team.

I think you are sure...

According to news published by the Spanish "AS.COM" site and other German newspapers, Mercedes is not too happy with RD and the way he manages McLaren.(http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/mercedes-medita-tomar-control-mclaren/dasmotfm1/20080104dasdaimot_7/Tes).

Umm... Hmm... The Milky Bars are on me :D

[Tumbo]

wow, i knew that some ppl didn't like mclaren but this is beyond petty.....hmmm so using ur statistics we have had since 1999 when the macs last had a driver's title how many world champions???? ummm 3 from 2 manufacturers from how many cars on the grid (22)?????? i'm more interested in where a company sits consistantly rather than outright titles but best of luck to u.............still trying to understand the point of this thread?! um maclaren should stop since they haven't won????????????applying this logic u have 2 manufacturers and 2 cars on the grid for the championship (technically 3 but MS has left)

and as pointed out prior if you are looking at no of grand prixs won/number of fastest laps/number of titles how about u also give us data on number of grand prixs entered ;)

[mstillhere]

Do you make this thread every six months?

No, I simply want to remind people who Ferrari is, every now and then. It is simply unfair making Ferrari the laughing stock of F1. True, Ferrari is having a rough year this year having Kimi's poor perfomance as a clear example. But let's not forget that Ferrari has technology and creativity second to no one. Its engines and design are the envie of the world. RD himself would love to have one, and closely succeeded last year. Unfortunetely all these fenomenal assets have been misused by the Ferrari's personnel. But that does not justify the other team's fans to ridicule such a successfull team. I truly beleive that it is F1 that needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1. Ferrari have nothing to prove anymore, to anyone. Ferrari is a well recognized and succefull brand. No man and woman with a passion for sports/exotic cars can miss a Ferrari when they see one. Not the same can be said for a McLaren. And that speaks volumes for a team that has such an unpararelled record. So, if you want to critize Ferrari sure go ahead, but Ferrari has shown historically that has been able to get itself out of crisis times and times again obtainig the respect of the whole world and beating one record after the other. McLaren is far from that. Kimi's 10 fastest laps this year are a clear example of that too. So, true Ferrari are having problems this year - and they are still second, BTW - but McLaren is not this marvelous winning machine either. Again so far 10 years have gone by and no world champion title as yet.

[gloomyDAY]

No, I simply want to remind people who Ferrari is, every now and then. It is simply unfair making Ferrari the laughing stock of F1. True, Ferrari is having a rough year this year having Kimi's poor perfomance as a clear example. But let's not forget that Ferrari has technology and creativity second to no one. Its engines and design are the envie of the world. RD himself would love to have one, and closely succeeded last year. Unfortunetely all these fenomenal assets have been misused by the Ferrari's personnel. But that does not justify the other team's fans to ridicule such a successfull team. I truly beleive that it is F1 that needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1. Ferrari have nothing to prove anymore, to anyone. Ferrari is a well recognized and succefull brand. No man and woman with a passion for sports/exotic cars can miss a Ferrari when they see one. Not the same can be said for a McLaren. And that speaks volumes for a team that has such an unpararelled record. So, if you want to critize Ferrari sure go ahead, but Ferrari has shown historically that has been able to get itself out of crisis times and times again obtainig the respect of the whole world and beating one record after the other. McLaren is far from that. Kimi's 10 fastest laps this year are a clear example of that too. So, true Ferrari are having problems this year - and they are still second, BTW - but McLaren is not this marvelous winning machine either. Again so far 10 years have gone by and no world champion title as yet.Grow a pair! We know who Ferrari is, so spare us the history lecture. McLaren and Ferrari are neck and neck. Both teams have had their fair share of embarrassment this season. Why do you even watch F1? I'm sure you wouldn't like to see Ferrari's rolling around the track all by themselves.

[Rollo]

I truly beleive that it is F1 that needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1. Ferrari have nothing to prove anymore, to anyone. Ferrari is a well recognized and succefull brand.

You have missed the point.

Ferrari is a racing team NOT a car company. Enzo set his Scuderia up in 1929 firstly to provide funds for amateurs to go racing, then took over Alfa Romeo's competiton department in 1938. When the Allies rebuilt the factory in 1946, included were the facilities to build car which they did... to pay for going racing.

Il Commendatore intended his company to be a racing team from the outset and to this end, it needs somewhere to race; that being F1. But the FIA do not care who races in their categories. The 1981 South African GP also disagrees with your claim.

Ferrari's whole point, heart and soul is to go motor racing. If they were to stop, then, according to Enzo's wish, quite rightly they should be disbanded immediately.
Brand schamnd... Ferrari isn't a "brand" - Feh! You call yourself a fan. Go learn yourself some respect for the Scuderia. :D

[mstillhere]

Grow a pair! McLaren and Ferrari are neck and neck..

That applies to this championship, not to the overall Ferrary accomplishments. From that perspective McLaren is way behind.



I'm sure you wouldn't like to see Ferrari's rolling around the track all by themselves.

You are correct, I don't like it a bit. However, one thing is critizing the team because of their various problems, an other is when I read McLaren fans deriding - not critizing it - Ferrari when Ferrari is everithng but an amatorial team. Incident happen and unfortunately, we know that humans are not perfect, and we saw in Malaysia how damaging it can be. However, I did not see anybody on this forum making any supportive comments about how horrible that mechanic must have felt. It was all hahhahahaah what a jack ass. I find that heartless.
I have been one of the most outspoken critics of Ferrari. And Ian has done his part too. So, I am not a fanatical Ferrari's supporter. However, some people in this forum need to show a better understanding of the misfortune of others remembering that "was goes around comes around". And McLaren's fans should know better than anyone else how quickly things can change. And still, they are behaving like if nothing has ever happened, like if McLaren is this incredible team that has being ruling F1 for ever. Just the opposite. If a team has been ruling that would be Ferrari, not McLAren not winning a championship in ten years.

[ioan]

Firstly you're comparing a car company to a racing team. Ferrari in principle IS NOT an automobile manufacturer. The reason Ferrari exists is to go motor racing; that's it. They happen to sell motor cars to subsidise their operations, they do not sell cars as their primary aim.

What? Interesting idea, I bet that LDM and FIAT will happily disagree with you.
Ferrari might have started as a race driver and than as a race car builder, but they developed into a highly profitable sports car manufacturer, like Porsche did for example.
Unless you believe that Porsche exists to go motor racing.

[ioan]

No, I simply want to remind people who Ferrari is, every now and then. It is simply unfair making Ferrari the laughing stock of F1. True, Ferrari is having a rough year this year having Kimi's poor perfomance as a clear example. But let's not forget that Ferrari has technology and creativity second to no one. Its engines and design are the envie of the world. RD himself would love to have one, and closely succeeded last year. Unfortunetely all these fenomenal assets have been misused by the Ferrari's personnel. But that does not justify the other team's fans to ridicule such a successfull team. I truly beleive that it is F1 that needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1. Ferrari have nothing to prove anymore, to anyone. Ferrari is a well recognized and succefull brand. No man and woman with a passion for sports/exotic cars can miss a Ferrari when they see one. Not the same can be said for a McLaren. And that speaks volumes for a team that has such an unpararelled record. So, if you want to critize Ferrari sure go ahead, but Ferrari has shown historically that has been able to get itself out of crisis times and times again obtainig the respect of the whole world and beating one record after the other. McLaren is far from that. Kimi's 10 fastest laps this year are a clear example of that too. So, true Ferrari are having problems this year - and they are still second, BTW - but McLaren is not this marvelous winning machine either. Again so far 10 years have gone by and no world champion title as yet.

Don't lose your time man.
On this board Ferrari are the bad ones and McLaren are the good ones, no matter who steals from the other one.

I'll own up to having criticized Ferrari for the rather rough patches they had this season, but the extent to which some people go against Ferrari is silly to say the least (see those threads where people acuse LDM and are "Oh so happy" that Bernie talks rubbish about Ferrari).

[ArrowsFA1]

...that does not justify the other team's fans to ridicule such a successfull team...
Much of the criticism of Ferrari this year has come from one of their most vocal supporters on this forum.

[ioan]

Much of the criticism of Ferrari this year has come from one of their most vocal supporters on this forum.

As I said I own up to it, and I'll also point out that it's because of their racing mistakes and not for the sake of bashing LDM or Ferrari in general.

[jens]

Maybe mstillhere should have waited until the end of the season before creating this thread?!

[Daniel]

Rollo. That's a load of rubbish. Ferrari's F1 campaign fully funds itself with merchandise, sponsorship and other revenue streams none of which include the sales of road cars.

[Daniel]

I forgot to ask if there was a point to this thread other than blind McLaren hatred? :mark: Really I do hope Lewis badly stubs his toe and can't race anymore this year but it would appear that Lewis is going to win despite driving for a team that is apparently so crap. Food for thought Mr OP?

[mstillhere]

Don't lose your time man.
On this board Ferrari are the bad ones and McLaren are the good ones, no matter who steals from the other one.

I'll own up to having criticized Ferrari for the rather rough patches they had this season, but the extent to which some people go against Ferrari is silly to say the least (see those threads where people acuse LDM and are "Oh so happy" that Bernie talks rubbish about Ferrari).

Oh, I am fully aware of that and so is every one else. But that does not deter me from expressing my own opinion. They can argue as much as they want with me and you and opinions in general. But all that stops when they look at the numbers. No one can argue with that. Ten years without a title is hard to argue with. And once again it's not over until when it is over.

[mstillhere]

Much of the criticism of Ferrari this year has come from one of their most vocal supporters on this forum.

That shows that we are not fanatics. We have shown that we are capable of objective views on the diffrent matters. Can't say I have seen the same from the McLaren's fans. Whatever they do and say is as good as gold. Pleeeease.

[mstillhere]

Maybe mstillhere should have waited until the end of the season before creating this thread?!

No, I could not. The voices in my head would not stop screaming. I had to do it now. Besides, I did not wanna jinx it :)

[mstillhere]

: Really I do hope Lewis badly stubs his toe and can't race anymore this year but it would appear that Lewis is going to win despite driving for a team that is apparently so crap. Food for thought Mr OP?

And so it did last year. The difference again is that Lewis at this point in the championship last year was ahead of a massive 21 points. Now it's seven. What makes you beleive that it is so hard for Ferrari to bit Lewis? It's not like he's ahead of 40 points. Let's be realistic here. If you think Ferrari is going just to sit down and let him win I think you don't really know what Ferrari is capable of.

[ShiftingGears]

That shows that we are not fanatics. We have shown that we are capable of objective views on the diffrent matters. Can't say I have seen the same from the McLaren's fans. Whatever they do and say is as good as gold. Pleeeease.

It's humourous, because you say something which contradicts a point you try to make, which is ironic.

Heehee!

[Rollo]

Rollo. That's a load of rubbish. Ferrari's F1 campaign fully funds itself with merchandise, sponsorship and other revenue streams none of which include the sales of road cars.

Would you like to substantiate this claim? Do you have access to or know something that I don't? In which case, please provide the links to support your claim.

[F1boat]

Don't lose your time man.
On this board Ferrari are the bad ones and McLaren are the good ones, no matter who steals from the other one.

I'll own up to having criticized Ferrari for the rather rough patches they had this season, but the extent to which some people go against Ferrari is silly to say the least (see those threads where people acuse LDM and are "Oh so happy" that Bernie talks rubbish about Ferrari).

ioan, it is obvious that I like Ferrari more than McLaren Mercedes. Yet I disagree with LdM and have the right to be happy that Bernie answered him so well.

[Daniel]

You substantiate your claim first Rollo :)

[ioan]

ioan, it is obvious that I like Ferrari more than McLaren Mercedes. Yet I disagree with LdM and have the right to be happy that Bernie answered him so well.

I know, and you have the right to be happy, and I have the right to disagree with Bernie's childish comments.

[Knock-on]

I know, and you have the right to be happy, and I have the right to disagree with Bernie's childish comments.

In what way were Bernies comments so different from Luca's?

[Robinho]

That shows that we are not fanatics. We have shown that we are capable of objective views on the diffrent matters. Can't say I have seen the same from the McLaren's fans. Whatever they do and say is as good as gold. Pleeeease.


Rubbish - several of "US" McLaren fans have criticized the team and spoken out against the matters of last year or Lewis mad moment in Canada to name a couple of things, and i for one don't need a history lesson on the great and glorious F1 career of Ferrari - i think most are quite aware of it.

i take it by "we" you mean all Ferrari fans - by association you are all now the same and think alike on everything, right? just like anyone else who supports another driver/team? how terribley objective of you, thanks for speaking for the entire Scuderia.

Ferrari are not immune from criticism, from Ferrari fans, F1 fans or rival fans just because they've got a big history and recent sucesses, and it might surprise you and few others to realise that a lot of the F1 fans, on the boards and elsewhere, even in the UK, have a soft spot for Ferrari. i certainly have had i the past, but i've always followed drivers more than teams in F1 and you always have a favourite out of the guys at the top in any given period. for me that does not include Ferrari now, or any time in the very recent past, but before then i rooted for Prost, Mansell, Berger, Alesi, Alboreto etc. that might not made me a Tifosi, i haven't got "that" feeling that makes Ferrari run through my veins, but i don't think that means i am incapable of forming opinions.

if you love Ferrari, great, be passionate about it, love the team and whoever is lucky enough to drive for them, but don't patronise the rest of us who choose to look elswhere - there are a number of teams on the grid, not just one, and no single one of them is F1, just a part of it. sure because of their history Ferrari are undoubtedly a large part of F1, but that doesn't devalue any of the other teams currently competing right now.

If Mclaren win this year i will be happy, i won't be unhappy if Massa wins, and next year if Ferrari and McLaren both struggle next year and we see Toyota, Honda and BMW in a 3 way fight at the front i won't be here reminding supporters of others how useless thay must be and how long its been since they won something, i'll be enjoying the racing in F1, the sport i'm a fan of!

[truefan72]

Rubbish - several of "US" McLaren fans have criticized the team and spoken out against the matters of last year or Lewis mad moment in Canada to name a couple of things, and i for one don't need a history lesson on the great and glorious F1 career of Ferrari - i think most are quite aware of it.

i take it by "we" you mean all Ferrari fans - by association you are all now the same and think alike on everything, right? just like anyone else who supports another driver/team? how terribley objective of you, thanks for speaking for the entire Scuderia.

Ferrari are not immune from criticism, from Ferrari fans, F1 fans or rival fans just because they've got a big history and recent sucesses, and it might surprise you and few others to realise that a lot of the F1 fans, on the boards and elsewhere, even in the UK, have a soft spot for Ferrari. i certainly have had i the past, but i've always followed drivers more than teams in F1 and you always have a favourite out of the guys at the top in any given period. for me that does not include Ferrari now, or any time in the very recent past, but before then i rooted for Prost, Mansell, Berger, Alesi, Alboreto etc. that might not made me a Tifosi, i haven't got "that" feeling that makes Ferrari run through my veins, but i don't think that means i am incapable of forming opinions.

if you love Ferrari, great, be passionate about it, love the team and whoever is lucky enough to drive for them, but don't patronise the rest of us who choose to look elswhere - there are a number of teams on the grid, not just one, and no single one of them is F1, just a part of it. sure because of their history Ferrari are undoubtedly a large part of F1, but that doesn't devalue any of the other teams currently competing right now.

If Mclaren win this year i will be happy, i won't be unhappy if Massa wins, and next year if Ferrari and McLaren both struggle next year and we see Toyota, Honda and BMW in a 3 way fight at the front i won't be here reminding supporters of others how useless thay must be and how long its been since they won something, i'll be enjoying the racing in F1, the sport i'm a fan of!


:up: brilliant

like you, I'm more of a fan of drivers than teams. I was a big fan of Berger(the driver) and enjoyed his time at Ferrari and exhauled their great 1-2 at monza. Liked them when they had Alboreto and Alesi also.

was not a fan of McLaren during the Senna,Prost years as I was not a a fan of either by that time. Used to like Alonso in his early Renault days as he challenged the Ferrari's and won his first championship. (grew wiery of him by the 2nd campaign)

Was a willams fan when they had Hill and Villeneauve, was not a williams fan with mansel and piquet. Was a williams fan again with Montoya. Enjoyed BAR with Button and Sato ( just feel sorry for Honda now)

Liked Senna when he was at Brabhams back in the day, and so on and so on...

also form some reason liked Osella and Jordan during their yellow days, purely irrational.

so your comments ring true for me as well.

excellent post!

[Tallgeese]

Michael Schumacher+Ferrari, = the reason why McLaren-Mercedes, BMW-Williams, & everybody else couldn't win until a young Fernando Alonso behind the Renault R25 R26 did what no body else could do. Let's face it, when I was watching F1 from 2000 - 2004 it got boring because Schumacher was too dominant, & even McLaren-Mercedes & BMW Williams looked hapless with his onslaught. That all being said, the unexpected happened, & Schumacher was ousted by Renault.

It must be remembered that after Senna won in 1991, McLaren won its next title in 1998, so it's not new, but the fact is, today (more than ever) McLaren-Mercedes is looking like the title-favourites, & Ferrari are slipping into the pre-Schumacher mode. Remember, before he joined, Ferrari's pit crew were no better than the clowns at Singapore..... oooooooh wait, they were Scuderia!

[Rollo]

You substantiate your claim first Rollo :)

Fine then. Just don't give me a TL :D R after it.

Something for you to consider:
http://www.hoovers.com/ferrari/--ID__59581--/freeuk-co-factsheet.xhtml

In late 2006 Fiat S.p.A. bought back the 29% stake owned by Italian bank Mediobanca. The move brought Fiat's stake in Ferrari to 85%. Piero Ferrari, son of Ferrari's founder, owns 10% of the company. Mubadala Development Co. of The United Arab Emirates owns 5%.
Becuase Ferrari SpA is a subsidiary, it's not required to publicly disclose its accounts. So then the nearest documentary evidence has to come from leaks.

Exhibit A - Press Release to the Financial Accounts:
http://www.duread.com/attachment.php?aid=185
- read the PDF - go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on...

Why is a an SpA being represented at the FIA World Council? Even the footer of the document credits this company as being Ferrari SpA. An SpA FYI is an Italian company or Società per Azioni.

Exhibit B -
http://www.duemotori.com/news/sales/23643_2007_balance_sheet_a_record_year_for_Ferrari .php

In the year of Ferrari's 60 year anniversary, beautifully topped off by our seventh Constructors' World title in nine years in Formula 1 and our sixth Drivers' title in the last eight years of the World Championship, all of the main economic indicators were up to excellent levels.

Ferrari's revenues (turnover) increased from the 1,447 million euro recorded in 2006 to 1,668 million euro in 2007, a jump of 15.3%.
A total of 6,465 road cars (i.e. track cars excluded) were delivered to end clients, an increase of 14% on 2006.

Two problems:
1. Why would they bother to note that the company had won a Constructor's Title if they were a manufacturing concern?
2. As a corollary - why make the distinction between "road cars" and "track cars"?

Exhibit C -
http://www.ferrari.it - Il sito ufficiale Ferrari
In the section maked "Racing"

Racing will always be fundamental to Ferrari and the Scuderia has never even once thought of pulling out.
Strong words eh?
Yet somehow I still can't find any evidence to suggest that it's anything other than a single company.

Short of finding an actual balance sheet, it's reasonable to conclude that the SpA is a single entity (even my most hated of "resources" wikipedia only credits the existance of Ferrari SpA in both the entries for both Ferrari and FIAT). And to that end if Ferrari themselves admit that "racing will always be fundamental" one must conclude that its point is to go racing.

Manchester United's point is to win football matches, titles and tournaments; they sell tickets, merchandising and advert space. The point of Man Utd is not however to sell they sell tickets, merchandising and advert space.
Ferrari's point - the very reason for its existance - is to go motor racing. They might sell road cars, advert space and even collect money from other revenue sources but those things are not the point of the Scuderia. McLaren, Williams, Force India even are also motor racing teams; their point is also to go motor racing - not to sell road cars.

To suggest that Ferrari is a "car company" denies the very point of its existance. It is a racing team, and quite a successful one as well, there's nothing wrong with that at all; just because they happen to have vast revenue streams, this still does not change this point.

I still dare you to prove otherwise. So far I've had precisely no actual evidence to counter my claim at all.

[ShiftingGears]

Fine then. Just don't give me a TL :D R after it.

Something for you to consider:
http://www.hoovers.com/ferrari/--ID__59581--/freeuk-co-factsheet.xhtml

Becuase Ferrari SpA is a subsidiary, it's not required to publicly disclose its accounts. So then the nearest documentary evidence has to come from leaks.

Exhibit A - Press Release to the Financial Accounts:
http://www.duread.com/attachment.php?aid=185
- read the PDF - go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on...

Why is a an SpA being represented at the FIA World Council? Even the footer of the document credits this company as being Ferrari SpA. An SpA FYI is an Italian company or Società per Azioni.

Exhibit B -
http://www.duemotori.com/news/sales/23643_2007_balance_sheet_a_record_year_for_Ferrari .php


Two problems:
1. Why would they bother to note that the company had won a Constructor's Title if they were a manufacturing concern?
2. As a corollary - why make the distinction between "road cars" and "track cars"?

Exhibit C -
http://www.ferrari.it - Il sito ufficiale Ferrari
In the section maked "Racing"

Strong words eh?
Yet somehow I still can't find any evidence to suggest that it's anything other than a single company.

Short of finding an actual balance sheet, it's reasonable to conclude that the SpA is a single entity (even my most hated of "resources" wikipedia only credits the existance of Ferrari SpA in both the entries for both Ferrari and FIAT). And to that end if Ferrari themselves admit that "racing will always be fundamental" one must conclude that its point is to go racing.

Manchester United's point is to win football matches, titles and tournaments; they sell tickets, merchandising and advert space. The point of Man Utd is not however to sell they sell tickets, merchandising and advert space.
Ferrari's point - the very reason for its existance - is to go motor racing. They might sell road cars, advert space and even collect money from other revenue sources but those things are not the point of the Scuderia. McLaren, Williams, Force India even are also motor racing teams; their point is also to go motor racing - not to sell road cars.

To suggest that Ferrari is a "car company" denies the very point of its existance. It is a racing team, and quite a successful one as well, there's nothing wrong with that at all; just because they happen to have vast revenue streams, this still does not change this point.

I still dare you to prove otherwise. So far I've had precisely no actual evidence to counter my claim at all.

I don't see how you've proved your point that Ferrari exist to go racing. It once was, I would like to know how you could prove/disprove that statement now.

[truefan72]

I don't see how you've proved your point that Ferrari exist to go racing. It once was, I would like to know how you could prove/disprove that statement now.

c'mon now are you arguing for arguments sake are are you just being willfully ignorant of a well laid out case for his point.

Ferrari are a Racing outfit first and foremost. Just like williams, and mclaren.
Selling cars was a by-product of their success. their rumored budget is about $500 million for the F1 team alone
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/18/fia-to-cap-f1-team-budgets-for-2009/

and that doesn't include any of their other racing enterprises or their foray/investment into A1GP. Couple that with their revenues generated from F1 and it's easy to see that the SF team is the central purpose of Ferrari.

Any business that invests hundreds of millions of dollars for 17 years with no success in a particular department, would eventually cut their losses and focus on their core business. But racing is Ferrari's core business and that's why they remained in F1 when many other teams would have folded shop and moved on. Their main purpose is to race.

[mstillhere]

Rubbish - several of "US" McLaren fans have criticized the team and spoken out against the matters of last year or Lewis mad moment in Canada to name a couple of things, and i for one don't need a history lesson on the great and glorious F1 career of Ferrari - i think most are quite aware of it.

i take it by "we" you mean all Ferrari fans - by association you are all now the same and think alike on everything, right? just like anyone else who supports another driver/team? how terribley objective of you, thanks for speaking for the entire Scuderia.

Ferrari are not immune from criticism, from Ferrari fans, F1 fans or rival fans just because they've got a big history and recent sucesses, and it might surprise you and few others to realise that a lot of the F1 fans, on the boards and elsewhere, even in the UK, have a soft spot for Ferrari. i certainly have had i the past, but i've always followed drivers more than teams in F1 and you always have a favourite out of the guys at the top in any given period. for me that does not include Ferrari now, or any time in the very recent past, but before then i rooted for Prost, Mansell, Berger, Alesi, Alboreto etc. that might not made me a Tifosi, i haven't got "that" feeling that makes Ferrari run through my veins, but i don't think that means i am incapable of forming opinions.

if you love Ferrari, great, be passionate about it, love the team and whoever is lucky enough to drive for them, but don't patronise the rest of us who choose to look elswhere - there are a number of teams on the grid, not just one, and no single one of them is F1, just a part of it. sure because of their history Ferrari are undoubtedly a large part of F1, but that doesn't devalue any of the other teams currently competing right now.

If Mclaren win this year i will be happy, i won't be unhappy if Massa wins, and next year if Ferrari and McLaren both struggle next year and we see Toyota, Honda and BMW in a 3 way fight at the front i won't be here reminding supporters of others how useless thay must be and how long its been since they won something, i'll be enjoying the racing in F1, the sport i'm a fan of!

Actually "we" is referring to Ioan and I. My post is mainly directed at the McLaren fans in this forum.
This post is for those people who are trivilizing a team that has won, and won,and won and won again, becoming the most successfull team in F1's history. Way more successfull than McLaren. You don't need a history lesson? Great. But many do. What bothers me is the short memory of some of these people. They are forgetting, conveniently, when Kimi and the other guy were driving for McLaren and components of their cars were literrally falling apart. Mirrors, flaps, engines breaking down at each race and so on. Now that was funny. Was not? Speaking of clowns... If anything, I would have expected more understanding from these people when teams go through tough times. But I guess I was wrong. Being gracious in victory is one of the best qualities I value in a person. But I guess RD teachings have gone a long way among the McLaren's fans with the results we all know now.
You were able to critize McLaren? Great. But you are just one of the very few honest and objective enough enough to point out what McLaren does wrong whenever is the case. But the majority of McLaren fans don't care. There is this fanatical, blind support for their team a team that cannot do wrong and worse yet don't miss a chance to ridicule Ferrari. I guess the long drought is making these fans way too impatient. And understandingbly so. 10 years is a long wait for a team that's supposed to win every year. Right?

[ShiftingGears]

Maybe mstillhere should have waited until the end of the season before creating this thread?!

I suggested that six months ago :D

[Daniel]

c'mon now are you arguing for arguments sake are are you just being willfully ignorant of a well laid out case for his point.

Ferrari are a Racing outfit first and foremost. Just like williams, and mclaren.
Selling cars was a by-product of their success. their rumored budget is about $500 million for the F1 team alone
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/18/fia-to-cap-f1-team-budgets-for-2009/

and that doesn't include any of their other racing enterprises or their foray/investment into A1GP. Couple that with their revenues generated from F1 and it's easy to see that the SF team is the central purpose of Ferrari.

Any business that invests hundreds of millions of dollars for 17 years with no success in a particular department, would eventually cut their losses and focus on their core business. But racing is Ferrari's core business and that's why they remained in F1 when many other teams would have folded shop and moved on. Their main purpose is to race.

No success? What about all those titles? What about all the money that F1 earns them through TV money? Through merchandising? Through sponsorship?

Couple that with the fact that Ferrari as a road car manufacturer turns a handsome profit while the Fiat group is only just starting to turn a profit from it's Fiat arm and is losing masses of money through Lancia and Alfa Romeo daily. Fiat wouldn't be ploughing millions and millions into F1 if it was a losing business when just a few years back they were quite literally at deaths door and it was looking like it was going to have to get rid of a few of it's marques.......

[Tonieke]

msstillhere....I can only say this to you...go count all the threads started on this forum lately bashing McL (and there drivers)....and go count does started about Ferrari (and maybe not include those started by ferrari "fans" themself) and you will see there also is an incredible difference !

[truefan72]

No success? What about all those titles? What about all the money that F1 earns them through TV money? Through merchandising? Through sponsorship?

what are you talking about man,

I am refereing to the 17 year drought that they had with no titles and explaining that if they truly were a car manufacturer, they would have cut their losses and exited the sport in the midst of them taking losses fiscally for all those years, especially the 6 or 7 when they weren't very competitive.

Alls I'm saying is that a car manufacturer would have folded the "F1 program" and concentrated on their core business of selling cars instead of subsidizing a loosing propostion both in performance and revenue.

Many car manufactures did just that with most recently spyker going away.
A company the size of Honda and Toyata can afford to throw money away in F1 due to their sheer size where their F1 budgets represent probably less than 0.5 percent of their revenue.

All those points you make simply strengthen the argument that they are a racing tieam first and foremost



Couple that with the fact that Ferrari as a road car manufacturer turns a handsome profit while the Fiat group is only just starting to turn a profit from it's Fiat arm and is losing masses of money through Lancia and Alfa Romeo daily. Fiat wouldn't be ploughing millions and millions into F1 if it was a losing business when just a few years back they were quite literally at deaths door and it was looking like it was going to have to get rid of a few of it's marques.......


It is only witihn the last decade that Ferrari's car sales are equal or slightly exceed the revenue that the F1 team brings in, but I dare say that even if they don't sell another car ever again, they would probably remain in F1

btw I am sure that a few years back when fiat were in dire straits, the discussion of axing Ferrari from F1 probably came up, but the fact that that never happened and probably with willing suitors knocking on the door, or the SF team probably willing and able to go about business on their own, left Fiat in a postion where it would have been foolish to get rid of Ferrari vis-a-vis the F1 team.

[Daniel]

what are you talking about man,

I am refereing to the 17 year drought that they had with no titles and explaining that if they truly were a car manufacturer, they would have cut their losses and exited the sport in the midst of them taking losses fiscally for all those years, especially the 6 or 7 when they weren't very competitive.

Alls I'm saying is that a car manufacturer would have folded the "F1 program" and concentrated on their core business of selling cars instead of subsidizing a loosing propostion both in performance and revenue.

Many car manufactures did just that with most recently spyker going away.
A company the size of Honda and Toyata can afford to throw money away in F1 due to their sheer size where their F1 budgets represent probably less than 0.5 percent of their revenue.

All those points you make simply strengthen the argument that they are a racing tieam first and foremost




It is only witihn the last decade that Ferrari's car sales are equal or slightly exceed the revenue that the F1 team brings in, but I dare say that even if they don't sell another car ever again, they would probably remain in F1

btw I am sure that a few years back when fiat were in dire straits, the discussion of axing Ferrari from F1 probably came up, but the fact that that never happened and probably with willing suitors knocking on the door, or the SF team probably willing and able to go about business on their own, left Fiat in a postion where it would have been foolish to get rid of Ferrari vis-a-vis the F1 team.

Fiat were in far better shape back in the 80's and early 90's when they weren't winning anything. So they could afford to haemmorage money in F1. Plus the amount of investment required was nowhere near as silly back then.

You can say what you want about Ferrari's past but right here and right now the road car division is successful in it's own right and doesn't need the Formula 1 team to survive. The same can be said in reverse.

What I'm saying doesn't strengthen the argument that Ferrari makes road cars to fund racing as it used to do in Enzo's day. It doesn't do that at all. It shows that Ferrari's F1 campaign is profitable in it's own right and Ferrari could close their road car factories down and still stay in F1 and be just as competitive.

[Rollo]

It shows that Ferrari's F1 campaign is profitable in it's own right and Ferrari could close their road car factories down and still stay in F1 and be just as competitive.

Which is the very point of Ferrari itself. I think I started with this:

Ferrari in principle IS NOT an automobile manufacturer. The reason Ferrari exists is to go motor racing; that's it. They happen to sell motor cars to subsidise their operations, they do not sell cars as their primary aim.

58 years in Formula One and numerous title would also support this.

[Robinho]

Actually "we" is referring to Ioan and I. My post is mainly directed at the McLaren fans in this forum.
This post is for those people who are trivilizing a team that has won, and won,and won and won again, becoming the most successfull team in F1's history. Way more successfull than McLaren. You don't need a history lesson? Great. But many do. What bothers me is the short memory of some of these people. They are forgetting, conveniently, when Kimi and the other guy were driving for McLaren and components of their cars were literrally falling apart. Mirrors, flaps, engines breaking down at each race and so on. Now that was funny. Was not? Speaking of clowns... If anything, I would have expected more understanding from these people when teams go through tough times. But I guess I was wrong. Being gracious in victory is one of the best qualities I value in a person. But I guess RD teachings have gone a long way among the McLaren's fans with the results we all know now.
You were able to critize McLaren? Great. But you are just one of the very few honest and objective enough enough to point out what McLaren does wrong whenever is the case. But the majority of McLaren fans don't care. There is this fanatical, blind support for their team a team that cannot do wrong and worse yet don't miss a chance to ridicule Ferrari. I guess the long drought is making these fans way too impatient. And understandingbly so. 10 years is a long wait for a team that's supposed to win every year. Right?

actually i don't see a lot of people "trivializing" Ferrari's acheivements - i do see a lot of people who don't really care as they support someone else, or enjoy a healthy rivalry with a team who they are directly competing with and as such won't miss an opportuniuty to get at the opposition, knowing full well all it does is probably wind rival fans up a bit - it chnges nothing from a sporting angle.

i certainly don't think there are that many "blind fanatics" on either side of the red and silver divide who think there team can do no wrong - i'd certainly expect any fan to attempt to defend their team and their point of view in most circumstances, yet most fans will accept defeat (in theory, if not in person ;) ) under other circumstances when something stupid happens - see Hamilton running up Kimi's rear, McLaren nicking drawings and info, Ferraris pit blunders or Massa's spinning top impression at silverstone. sure fans will look for reason to justify these problems, issues or errors, but some things are in the end indefensible even if there are mitigating circumstances.

finally, i'm seeing a lot of what you seem to have an issue with in your own post - you are certainly trivializing McLarens acheivements as one of the most successful teams in F1 history (albeit behind Ferrari in all time lists) and seemt o not be wanting to miss an opportunity to ridicule Mclaren, for past indiscretions and failures as well as current one, and indeed what you hope to be a future failure in not picking up any titles this year (again, yes we know)

i'm struggling to see what you hope to acheive - surely the point of any arguement is the hope of turning the other party, but ultimately you would probably not want to be involved in arguing with someone who was weak willed enough to be likely to change their point of view just because of your words - i'm certainly not arrogant (enough) to think i can change peoples minds more than maye once or twice if they have a view opposed to mine.

do you want all us McLaren, or Wiliams, or Renault or other fans to turn round and say "you know what, your right, Ferrari ar the most successful team, and as such i feel i should support them and not any of the try hard upstarts who turn up with the gall of wanting to compete in the top class of the sport"?

of course a lean period makes a fan crave success, but its not like McLaren have been winless and struggling to get out of Qually 1 for years, they are often in the top 4 teams at least and more recently have been competitive at the very front, and without them and their fans Ferrari would have looked very silly joshing round winning all the titles they had to compete hard for against Mika, Kimi, Montoya, Alonso, Hamilton etc.

Vive La Difference and all that ;)

[gravity]

I am not too sure how thrilled Mercedes is having to put so mach money and resources in the McLAren team. The results achieved by McLaren are way less than flatering. In fact, if we compare the numbers of the two teams, we see an incredible difference:

...

This year, like last year, McLaren seems to be poised to win the world championship. However, last year at this time Lewis was 21 points ahead.This year he's 7. So, mathematically the chances for him losing again are greater this year that they were last year. In case McLaren and Lewis win this year, this victory is not going to put McLaren in the lead of world championships -like many forget - and it is not going to make Lewis better that MS, either. Both McLaren and Lewis are way far from that. Way far.

You start off saying how Mercedes isn't thrilled... etc. If they were proven to be the best performing engine on the grid and were consistantly losing, then I'd understand if they were unhappy. Do they have the most powerful engine in the field? McLaren is competing against Ferrari for race wins (and last time I checked, they were ahead in the points race).

Oh! But u were talking about past years...
If you wanted to post something which is historically informative, perhaps you would want to mention Williams? I remember when McLaren, Ferrari and Williams were the top 3. McLaren were ahead of Ferrari in "all time wins". Not a bad achievement that. Williams had the best start/win ratio of any team in F1 history at the time. Also, not a bad achievement.

All is not lost. Ferrari are still in the hunt for this championship. The way you have come across in this post makes me think that you are doubting your teami. You see chinks in their armour and it concerns you greatly... to the point where you need to keep reminding people of how good Ferrari USED to be. Come on dude, cheer up! Ferrari might still win a race or two yet!

Your argument of "last year at this time Lewis was 21 points ahead.This year he's 7. So, mathematically the chances for him losing again are greater" is interesting. Using that theory, McLaren has a better chance of winning the championship if they were 21 points behind Ferrari? There are so many counter-arguments to that that it would need a thread of its own.

[mstillhere]

Your argument of "last year at this time Lewis was 21 points ahead.This year he's 7. So, mathematically the chances for him losing again are greater" is interesting. Using that theory, McLaren has a better chance of winning the championship if they were 21 points behind Ferrari? There are so many counter-arguments to that that it would need a thread of its own.

Let me ry this again. This year ferrari has a greater chance to beat McLaren and win the championship than last year since the gap between between Lewis and Massa this year is only 7 points to last year's 21 points.

[TMorel]

Let me ry this again. This year ferrari has a greater chance to beat McLaren and win the championship than last year since the gap between between Lewis and Massa this year is only 7 points to last year's 21 points.

So what you're saying is, that last year there was more of a gap and they still won, so if this year they DON'T win, then they're a huge bunch of losers who choked?

[truefan72]

What I'm saying doesn't strengthen the argument that Ferrari makes road cars to fund racing as it used to do in Enzo's day. It doesn't do that at all. It shows that Ferrari's F1 campaign is profitable in it's own right and Ferrari could close their road car factories down and still stay in F1 and be just as competitive.

That's what I am saying. Scuderia Ferrari is first and foremost a racing enterprise, pretty much strong enough to finance itself in its racing endeavors.
I also never said that the car sales were there to support the SF team. I said they were a profitable by product of their racing heritage and prowess.

So I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me here.
Ferrari is a racing enterprise with a successful car sales division.

[VkmSpouge]

Let me ry this again. This year ferrari has a greater chance to beat McLaren and win the championship than last year since the gap between between Lewis and Massa this year is only 7 points to last year's 21 points.

A correction for you; at this stage last season with three races to go Hamilton's lead on Raikkonen in the championship was 13 points not 21. Splitting hairs of course as your point remains the same.


But the majority of McLaren fans don't care. There is this fanatical, blind support for their team a team that cannot do wrong and worse yet don't miss a chance to ridicule Ferrari.

You know I have never seen the difference in how either teams' fans react on this board? Both Ferrari and McLaren have fans who are capable of being very objective and dishing out (sometimes quite harsh) criticism of their favourite team. Both Ferrari and McLaren also have fans who are blind and rarely see a fault with them. You have those types of people in any group of fans in any sport.

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe mstillhere should have waited until the end of the season before creating this thread?!

Nah, he'll probably create two or three more just like this one before the end of the season.