OFFICIAL: BMW Sauber confirm Kubica and Heidfeld

[Giuseppe F1]

Guess Alonso is staying at Renault then:

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71185

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BMW confirm Heidfeld, Kubica for 2009

By Pablo Elizalde
Monday, October 6th 2008
09:27 GMT

The BMW Sauber team will retain both Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld in the 2009 season, the German squad announced on Monday.

The team said Christian Klien will stay on as a test driver.

"We see Nick and Robert as a strong driver pairing and Christian as an experienced test driver," said BMW motorsport boss Mario Theissen.

"We are in no doubt that we will again achieve our ambitious aims with them in the team's fourth year."

The announcement ends weeks of speculation regarding the future of Heidfeld, who was yet to be confirmed at the team.

The confirmation also closes to door to Fernando Alonso, who had been linked with a move to BMW. Now the Spaniard has Renault and Honda as his only options for 2009.

[Roamy]

I would imagine that Heidfield's extension has a clause "subject to Alonso"

[FIA]

I guess it's mainly because Alonso probably had a clause saying that if he won a race with Renault he would stay on another year.

[truefan72]

hmm, abit surprising by BMW. I think that heidfeld may be on a very short leash over at BMW and may not last through 2009.

If they were not going to get Alonso, they should have waited till the winter to make up their minds about Heidfeld. See how the last 3 races play out and then weigh their ioptions after that.

I've never understood the rush to resign drivers during the season. Especially when there is absolutely no fear of Heidfeld being scooped up by another team to BMW's detriment.

I'ts been a very "normal season" so far.

[F1boat]

I think that Fred should stay at Renault, but I hoped that Nico will advance to BMW :(

[ioan]

What people are missing is that BMW are planning to win races and battle for the title next season.
So if they can't get Alonso than they should hold on to Heidfeld.
Or do you think there is better drivers than Heidfeld that aren't contracted to a team out there? I don't think so.

The BMW move is a very logical one.

[F1boat]

ioan, Nick is solid, but in my opinion Nico is a better and faster driver.

[Nikki Katz]

While this is the result I was expecting, I wasn't expecting them to announce this for a good few months yet. I'm sure Alonso would rather stay at Renault than risk Honda, so there's probably going to be very little other movment. Probably all new at Toro Rosso and possibly a new driver to be Alonso's number 2, but that's it.

[ioan]

ioan, Nick is solid, but in my opinion Nico is a better and faster driver.

Based on what? One good race that he should have won?

[Bagwan]

Much as I like Alonso's driving , I don't think there was ever any real chance of him ending up at BMW .
He wouldn't fit , in the controlled atmosphere , just like he didn't fit with McLaren .

He fits where he is , and Nick fits in the BMW seat like a glove .
The character of Robert came out a while ago , and the tables have been more even of late , with the two of them relatively closer .
Kubica can learn a lot from Nick , who has worked it out quietly behind the scenes , and found the speed again .

It's that "no i in team" thing .

I don't think the two drivers had much respect for each other at the start of the season , but they do now .
And , I think that's why they were re-signed .

I think perhaps Dr. Mario might even have learned that drivers need to know what they are doing next year a little earlier , so they can keep focussed for the last few races . Although , that does seem a little far fetched .

Anyway , I think it was a good move .

[F1boat]

Based on what? One good race that he should have won?

You can say the same about Nick. Honestly, from what I see Nico is younger and hungrier for success and definetly has a brighter future, unless Heidfeld surprises me.

[Areez2006]

I wonder what this means we can expect from Heidfeld next year?

[ShiftingGears]

You can say the same about Nick. Honestly, from what I see Nico is younger and hungrier for success and definetly has a brighter future, unless Heidfeld surprises me.

I haven't seen anything from Nico that would suggest that he is worthy of a better team.

[Valve Bounce]

What people are missing is that BMW are planning to win races and battle for the title next season.
So if they can't get Alonso than they should hold on to Heidfeld.
Or do you think there is better drivers than Heidfeld that aren't contracted to a team out there? I don't think so.



bunsen???

[ShiftingGears]

bunsen???

Yeah. I mean if he went to Honda, Alonso wouldn't have a chance against Buttons smooth driving style which will see him excel without traction control.

Right?

[Hawkmoon]

There are a couple of things that come out of this for me.

Firstly, that a 2 time champion, only 1 year removed from his last title, is not beating teams off with a stick. Has Alonso's antics with McLaren damaged him to such an extent that an average jounrneyman like Heidfeld is a preferred option?

Secondly, if Alonso isn't damaged goods, then it would seem that BMW have gone the way of McLaren and will base their team around Kubica with Heidfeld backing him up. McLaren have done this with Hamilton/Kovalainen and I think we can expect Renault to do the same thing with Alonso if he stays.

I think the front running teams will all structure their driver lineups around the No.1/No.2 idea. With the exception, quite ironically, of Ferrari who showed how successful that methodology can be during the Schumacher Era. They have 2 genuine No.1s which seems to be working for them.

[Valve Bounce]

There are a couple of things that come out of this for me.

Firstly, that a 2 time champion, only 1 year removed from his last title, is not beating teams off with a stick. Has Alonso's antics with McLaren damaged him to such an extent that an average jounrneyman like Heidfeld is a preferred option?

Secondly, if Alonso isn't damaged goods, then it would seem that BMW have gone the way of McLaren and will base their team around Kubica with Heidfeld backing him up. McLaren have done this with Hamilton/Kovalainen and I think we can expect Renault to do the same thing with Alonso if he stays.

I think the front running teams will all structure their driver lineups around the No.1/No.2 idea. With the exception, quite ironically, of Ferrari who showed how successful that methodology can be during the Schumacher Era. They have 2 genuine No.1s which seems to be working for them.

Kube man is fast, and I have the feeling that Nick is better than his results indicate; and the most important aspect is that the two make a good team.

My opinion is that Alonso will not make a good pairing with Kube man, especially if he gets beaten.

Alonso will fit into Honda with anyone they can name - as the will be rear gunners at best anyway. Or he can remain at Renault where he knows his team mate will not challenge him on the track - ever.

[ShiftingGears]

There are a couple of things that come out of this for me.

Firstly, that a 2 time champion, only 1 year removed from his last title, is not beating teams off with a stick. Has Alonso's antics with McLaren damaged him to such an extent that an average jounrneyman like Heidfeld is a preferred option?

Secondly, if Alonso isn't damaged goods, then it would seem that BMW have gone the way of McLaren and will base their team around Kubica with Heidfeld backing him up. McLaren have done this with Hamilton/Kovalainen and I think we can expect Renault to do the same thing with Alonso if he stays.

I think the front running teams will all structure their driver lineups around the No.1/No.2 idea. With the exception, quite ironically, of Ferrari who showed how successful that methodology can be during the Schumacher Era. They have 2 genuine No.1s which seems to be working for them.

I don't think BMW like the idea of being an interim measure for Alonso, who likes the possibility of that Ferrari seat in 2011.

[truefan72]

I wonder what this means we can expect from Heidfeld next year?


The usual get outclassed by Kubnica for the first 5-6 races until, once again, his job is on the line, then he will start producing some decent results, Kubica will once again start complaining about "team support and seriousness of a WCC challenge" He'll get is act together and then once again leave Heidfeld behind, who will find something else about the car he doesn;t like and why he can't perform to his abilities.

We will be having the same discussion about Heidfled next year.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think BMW like the idea of being an interim measure for Alonso, who likes the possibility of that Ferrari seat in 2011.

Ferrari would have to give very careful consideration to hiring for 2011. Just supposing that Kimi and/or Massa does well at Ferrari in 2009 and 2010, possibly winning the WDC in one of those years, even if one of the two departs F1 for greener pastures in, say Hurling or Gaelic Football just for arguments sake, Ferrari would retain the other and I just cannot see Alonso in the same team as either Kimi or Massa.

Alonso needs someone like Jr or Fisi or Kovi as a team mate - someone who would just be happy to be racing in the same team and offering full support to the "better" driver. Team principals are not deaf or blind - they all can see the difficulty of having Alonso in the same team as another good driver like Hamilton.

[Areez2006]

to truefan:

I hope not; I would really would like to see Heidfeld get that first win...I know he was to be absolutely gutted to see three drivers get their first wins this season.

[jens]

It looks like some people here are seeing things a bit different than me. It is said like Alonso has a damaged image and that's why he is not wanted. If I have understood the driver market correctly, then it was BMW, who actually made an offer to Alonso for 3 years! But Alonso refused the offer, because he wanted a one-year deal (to see if he can get to Ferrari or wherever for 2010, which would appear to be the best choice then), not for 3 years without contract termination clauses, which would be too risky.

Since Alonso has turned the offer down, it's a logical choice for BMW to continue with current drivers. I think some here expected Alonso's official announcement before the teams themselves confirm their drivers. Well, I think for teams the situation, who is available and who is not, is clear already before official announcements.

And finally I may add that Marko Asmer won't continue as BMW's test driver and his future is unclear...

[ioan]

It looks like some people here are seeing things a bit different than me. It is said like Alonso has a damaged image and that's why he is not wanted. If I have understood the driver market correctly, then it was BMW, who actually made an offer to Alonso for 3 years! But Alonso refused the offer, because he wanted a one-year deal (to see if he can get to Ferrari or wherever for 2010, which would appear to be the best choice then), not for 3 years without contract termination clauses, which would be too risky.

Since Alonso has turned the offer down, it's a logical choice for BMW to continue with current drivers. I think some here expected Alonso's official announcement before the teams themselves confirm their drivers. Well, I think for teams the situation, who is available and who is not, is clear already before official announcements.

Exactly.

[keysersoze]

I don't see what all the fuss is about Nick remaining in the team. With the 3rd or perhaps the 4th best car on the grid, he has amassed 56 points, and is only 8 points behind his much-heralded teammate.

I'd say BMW clearly have the most RELIABLE driver pairing on the grid, and only the Ferrari duo are QUICKER.

Nick is better than a "perfect #2," a title Fisichella kinda had when he was with Fernando; he is a #2 that can bag some serious points, a guy who is better on race day than he is in qualifying.

[pettersolberg29]

I don't see what all the fuss is about Nick remaining in the team. With the 3rd or perhaps the 4th best car on the grid, he has amassed 56 points, and is only 8 points behind his much-heralded teammate.

I'd say BMW clearly have the most RELIABLE driver pairing on the grid, and only the Ferrari duo are QUICKER.

Nick is better than a "perfect #2," a title Fisichella kinda had when he was with Fernando; he is a #2 that can bag some serious points, a guy who is better on race day than he is in qualifying.

Couldn't agree more. He is only 1 point behind Kimi, the WDC in a Ferrari, and about 3 ahead of Kovalainen in a faster McLaren.

He's done well if you ask me!

[jens]

This raises a question that if even a "disappointing Heidfeld" can be so high up in the standings, what could he do, when he is on the top of his game? :D If BMW has a top car in 2009, Nick could have a realistic shot at the title even if he lacks a tenth or two in terms of "raw pace".

[ioan]

Heidfeld is a bloody good driver! the problem is that, forum members judge drivers based on literally nothing (unless you can say that bias acconts for something in reality).

[Dave B]

I think Nick is a decent solid driver who occasionally needs a kick up the backside to make him perform. He was complacent at Sauber when Villeneuve wasn't exactly a threat, but the moment Kubica arrived and showed what the car was really capable of he had to raise his game - and he did, for a while.

[Allyc85]

Good move by BMW. Theyve got the raw speed of Kubica while theyve got the reliability of Heidfeld to bring in the constructor points.

Anyone thinking of Nico going to BMW must have been dreaming, BMW would have to pay ALOT of money for him.

[samuratt]

Here in Spain the rumour mill says that Alonso was offered a three year deal. That must hurt to those who say Alonso's image is damaged... :D

He turned it down, not just because the contract was not flexible at all, but for some other reasons like:
- Kubica told him about the atmosphere there...
- BMW inability to develop a car during the seasson

Fernando is playing the waiting game. He has a contract with Renault already signed, if nothing betters comes out (Ferrari) he will saty with them. And right now the Renault maybe faster than the BMW, and with new regulations and some engine develpment, Renault look like a better prospect for next year. Only the KERS is the question mark here.

And I know you will call me crazy, but don't rule out the 2009 Ferrari possibility until the new seasson starts... They are very pissed off at Maranello since they are 2nd to both titles while having arguably the best car on the grid.

[truefan72]

to truefan:

I hope not; I would really would like to see Heidfeld get that first win...I know he was to be absolutely gutted to see three drivers get their first wins this season.

listen, I would love for Heidfeld to win a GP, which would cap a solid F1 career. And staying at BMw gives him a fighting chance. But strictly from a cosistency and peak performance stance, Heidfeld all too often needs outside motivation to get the job done, which is really irritating.


It looks like some people here are seeing things a bit different than me. It is said like Alonso has a damaged image and that's why he is not wanted. If I have understood the driver market correctly, then it was BMW, who actually made an offer to Alonso for 3 years! But Alonso refused the offer, because he wanted a one-year deal (to see if he can get to Ferrari or wherever for 2010, which would appear to be the best choice then), not for 3 years without contract termination clauses, which would be too risky.

Since Alonso has turned the offer down, it's a logical choice for BMW to continue with current drivers. I think some here expected Alonso's official announcement before the teams themselves confirm their drivers. Well, I think for teams the situation, who is available and who is not, is clear already before official announcements.

And finally I may add that Marko Asmer won't continue as BMW's test driver and his future is unclear...

If Alosno turned a 3 year offer down and was looking for a one year deal then I can see why BMW ended the discussion. It is good to know that they did make the offer and Alonso should have realizied that BMW are not into being a placeholder for his departure to Ferrari..if that does indead materialize. It's a gamble that might not pay off for him. I think that if Ferrari can pry Vettel out of his RBR contract, they would probably take him over Alonso, and if Kubica's price is right, they might even take a look at that direction.


I think Nick is a decent solid driver who occasionally needs a kick up the backside to make him perform. He was complacent at Sauber when Villeneuve wasn't exactly a threat, but the moment Kubica arrived and showed what the car was really capable of he had to raise his game - and he did, for a while.

and that essentially is the problem with Nick. A very likeable driver with a solid career, but lacking something that would take him to the top. A few years ago, I though it was inevitable that heidfled would be a GP winner and WCC challenger. That's never materialized.


Here in Spain the rumour mill says that Alonso was offered a three year deal. That must hurt to those who say Alonso's image is damaged... :D

He turned it down, not just because the contract was not flexible at all.

By not flexible do you mean that Alonso wasn't going to accept a decent contract from a class outfit and that the flexibility he looked for was an ability to leave that team for a Ferrari contract after 1 year. And by that accord would that mean that BMW should have accepted his services for one lame duck year with his lack of passion for the team as he would be simply biding his time throughout the season until Ferrari offer him the contract, then finishing up the year not really caring becuase he was going to leave anyway and might even have left the team during the season in an amicable split as they saw no need to continue the charade?

Why would any team enter into such an agreement?

[ioan]

And I know you will call me crazy, but don't rule out the 2009 Ferrari possibility until the new seasson starts... They are very pissed off at Maranello since they are 2nd to both titles while having arguably the best car on the grid.

Are they going to hire Alonso as their team manager? :confused:

[ioan]

listen, I would love for Heidfeld to win a GP, which would cap a solid F1 career. And staying at BMw gives him a fighting chance. But strictly from a cosistency and peak performance stance, Heidfeld all too often needs outside motivation to get the job done, which is really irritating.

For a so called "unmotivated" driver he's only 1 point behind Kimi, and only 8 behind Kubica.

If motivating him means not shafting him in order to give Kubica the first BMW win, than I agree with you.

[truefan72]

For a so called "unmotivated" driver he's only 1 point behind Kimi, and only 8 behind Kubica.

If motivating him means not shafting him in order to give Kubica the first BMW win, than I agree with you.


canada was an intriguing situation And I would have handled it differently if I was in thiesens shoes, but that's all subjective.

Heidfelds problems were evident before Kubica joined the team and are really a matter irrespective of his teammate. I'd say BMW have been more than generous to him over the years in providing him with a decent seat, while more accomplished drivers have been dismissed or not renewed by teams with better credentials than him.

take a good look at his career and look at the trends
solid but unspectacular, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Heidfeld

[aryan]

Quick Nick is a bloody good driver. He has struggled this year in quali, but the fact that he has 56 points, just 8 behind his much-talked-about teammate and right there with Kimi is a testament to his race craft.

Seriously, he normally finishes a number of places ahead of where he starts, and he is a very consistent driver as well. What's not to like about him?

If the 2009 BMW is able to get heat into its tyres a bit quicker, he can easily beat Kubica. He is a top notch driver who has been under-rated all his career.

[aryan]

- BMW inability to develop a car during the seasson


BMW's main objective in 2006 was to establish the team and get the personnel and the drivers right. They did.

BMW's main objective was to become competitive and be 'up there'. They did. They were easily the 3rd best team on the grid.

BMW's main objective in 2008 was to win a race. They did. After that, their 2008 season was done. They were 0.5 sec a lap slower than Ferrari/McLaren and behind them in Championships, so it was not conceivable that they could fight for the championship this year. Instead they allocated all their resources to the 2009 car.

Every other team has been developing this year's car and the 2009 car in parallel. BMW has shifted its focus from Canada completely to 2009. There is a good chance that they would be a major force in 2009.

Kubica moans about not developing this year's car, because somewhere in his mind, he thinks he would have been able to fight for WDC if BMW had done that. He is a racing driver and doesn't see the big picture. BMW managers do. They rightly decided it's best to focus on 2009, than to try to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari this year. I can understand why Kubica is upset, bu seriously, the team made the right decision.

If the 2009 BMW is fast, as in really fast, BMW's decision would pay huge dividends. We'll have to wait and see.

[ioan]

Quick Nick is a bloody good driver. He has struggled this year in quali, but the fact that he has 56 points, just 8 behind his much-talked-about teammate and right there with Kimi is a testament to his race craft.

Seriously, he normally finishes a number of places ahead of where he starts, and he is a very consistent driver as well. What's not to like about him?

If the 2009 BMW is able to get heat into its tyres a bit quicker, he can easily beat Kubica. He is a top notch driver who has been under-rated all his career.

Right!
I have to think very hard trying to remember some of his errors, during his whole career.

[samuratt]

By not flexible do you mean that Alonso wasn't going to accept a decent contract from a class outfit and that the flexibility he looked for was an ability to leave that team for a Ferrari contract after 1 year. And by that accord would that mean that BMW should have accepted his services for one lame duck year with his lack of passion for the team as he would be simply biding his time throughout the season until Ferrari offer him the contract, then finishing up the year not really caring becuase he was going to leave anyway and might even have left the team during the season in an amicable split as they saw no need to continue the charade?

Why would any team enter into such an agreement?


Who told you the contract was decent? The deal was three years long with no possibility to change that. Why would you want that? has BMW shown any capability to build a great car? No at all. And furthermore, it seams that they where not offering a goo salary too, so sumarizing:

BMW wanted Fernando, and he did not wanted them. I think it is very easy to understand.

[samuratt]

BMW's main objective in 2006 was to establish the team and get the personnel and the drivers right. They did.

BMW's main objective was to become competitive and be 'up there'. They did. They were easily the 3rd best team on the grid.

BMW's main objective in 2008 was to win a race. They did. After that, their 2008 season was done. They were 0.5 sec a lap slower than Ferrari/McLaren and behind them in Championships, so it was not conceivable that they could fight for the championship this year. Instead they allocated all their resources to the 2009 car.

Every other team has been developing this year's car and the 2009 car in parallel. BMW has shifted its focus from Canada completely to 2009. There is a good chance that they would be a major force in 2009.

Kubica moans about not developing this year's car, because somewhere in his mind, he thinks he would have been able to fight for WDC if BMW had done that. He is a racing driver and doesn't see the big picture. BMW managers do. They rightly decided it's best to focus on 2009, than to try to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari this year. I can understand why Kubica is upset, bu seriously, the team made the right decision.

If the 2009 BMW is fast, as in really fast, BMW's decision would pay huge dividends. We'll have to wait and see.

So in three years BMW hasn't shown any ability to develope a car during the seasson, will be able to do it when required. That is anyone guess.

I remember a lot of teamss concentrating on new years cars, and failing to develope anything fast enough...

[PolePosition_1]

For a so called "unmotivated" driver he's only 1 point behind Kimi, and only 8 behind Kubica.

If motivating him means not shafting him in order to give Kubica the first BMW win, than I agree with you.

I'm with you on this one Ioan, I think BMW have made a sensible decision. People are underestimating how well Nick is doing this season based on his poor start to the season. He's been solid, in last 5 races, scoring just 1 point less than Kubica. In many respects he's a victim of early season reputation, in same way Massa's "inconsistant" label has stuck, despite him being one of the most consistant drivers this year.

I would have loved to have seen Alonso go to BMW, but hope that he stays at Renault know, and with an obvious improvement, have hope they can maybe be more challenging next year. Alonso has scored the 2nd most points out of anyone in the past 5 races, second only to Hamilton, highlighting how strongly Renault have come on.

[ioan]

I'm with you on this one Ioan, I think BMW have made a sensible decision. People are underestimating how well Nick is doing this season based on his poor start to the season. He's been solid, in last 5 races, scoring just 1 point less than Kubica. In many respects he's a victim of early season reputation, in same way Massa's "inconsistant" label has stuck, despite him being one of the most consistant drivers this year.

I would have loved to have seen Alonso go to BMW, but hope that he stays at Renault know, and with an obvious improvement, have hope they can maybe be more challenging next year. Alonso has scored the 2nd most points out of anyone in the past 5 races, second only to Hamilton, highlighting how strongly Renault have come on.

IMO both Heidfeld and Massa are bashed around here for the same reason, because they managed to beat drivers who's fans can't take on the chin.

Heidfeld beat Webber at Williams and since that he's continuously bashed, no matter his achievements. If he's better than Kubica than it's not enough, if he's behind Kubica than he's past it. Go figure!

Massa was very close to Kimi last year and equal to him most of last season untill he had to play 2nd driver. He clearly bested Kimi this season. Everyone was talking about how Kimi is better than MS and it turns out it isn't the case, and the common denominator is Massa, so he's got the hate that was previously directed against MS. Add to it the fact that he was intelligent and accepted MS's help, while Kimi refused it, and you get the whole picture.

I've posted around here since a long time, and quite a lot too, and I know that 99% of the people around here are basing their opinions on their feelings, nothing else. I'm not the most objective either, I have to acknowledge it.

[jens]

I've posted around here since a long time, and quite a lot too, and I know that 99% of the people around here are basing their opinions on their feelings, nothing else. I'm not the most objective either, I have to acknowledge it.

Don't worry, everyone is biased - it's only natural and in human nature. :) 'Feelings' can be described as a positive asset too as with feelings people show they actually care about F1 and what's going on there. ;)

[samuratt]

I'm not the most objective either, I have to acknowledge it.

That maybe the most objective sentence I read in a long long time! :up:

[tintop]

I dunno, I guess that the short-term options weren't that exciting, but I think that even with a relatively better car in 2009, Nick will have trouble in qualifying. It's not just that Kubi outqualifies him 13-3, it's the magnitude of the difference in many cases (10 places this week!! - always with excuses).

[ioan]

I dunno, I guess that the short-term options weren't that exciting, but I think that even with a relatively better car in 2009, Nick will have trouble in qualifying. It's not just that Kubi outqualifies him 13-3, it's the magnitude of the difference in many cases (10 places this week!! - always with excuses).

Stop bitching without knowing the facts.
Kubica got into Q2 only in 14th place and he was only marginally faster than Heidfeld.

[pettersolberg29]

We all know Bob is a better qualifier than Nick, but today Kubica was not 10 places better than Nick - they just both went for the wrong tyres and Kubica just survived, Nick just missed out.

Lets see what they can do tomorrow - points aren't out the question for both. I assume Nick will go for his one-stopper which he resorts to when qualified low, and this could shoot him up to low points.

[gravity]

Stop bitching without knowing the facts.
Kubica got into Q2 only in 14th place and he was only marginally faster than Heidfeld.

Did Kubica outqualify Heidfeld? Was there a large gap between them (starting position wise, not time)?

I agree with you that the end result didn't show a true reflection of how close they were time wise, but it doesn't mean that Tintop is incorrect wrt his statement. Who was the one bitching without facts, btw?

[markabilly]

"We are in no doubt that we will again achieve our ambitious aims with them in the team's fourth year."

.


Yes, they are hoping they "will again achieve our ambitous aims" which as demonstrated this year, is to be also best runner up behind Mac and Ferrari.

Dumb move. Dumber langage to use in the announcment

If they had taken FA last year, they would be directly competing toe to toe for the WDC and WCC this year, instead of having the Kube run behind the winners and hoping scoop up enough crumbs in the form of points in second, third, fourth and sixth places to win a wdc if Massa and Hamster hand it to him by crashing out

[tintop]

Stop bitching without knowing the facts.
Kubica got into Q2 only in 14th place and he was only marginally faster than Heidfeld.

Just the facts ma'm, 13-3 Kubica over Heidfeld in qualification, Kubica 10 places in this race.

In the 13 races that Kubica outqualified Heidfeld he bettered him by an average of 5.5 places; Heidfeld outqualified Kubica by an average of 3 places in 3 races.

[tintop]

We all know Bob is a better qualifier than Nick, but today Kubica was not 10 places better than Nick - they just both went for the wrong tyres and Kubica just survived, Nick just missed out.

Lets see what they can do tomorrow - points aren't out the question for both. I assume Nick will go for his one-stopper which he resorts to when qualified low, and this could shoot him up to low points.

Oh, I know it happens to top drivers occasionally and Heidfeld has been blocked, gotten off late in previous qualifying sessions etc. But over the balance of the season he is really a substandard qualifier, which hasn't hurt BMW too much, now in solid 3rd place, but if they expect to challenge for 1 or 2 next year, he can't continue to be 4-5 spots behind Robert on average.

[ioan]

Just the facts ma'm, 13-3 Kubica over Heidfeld in qualification, Kubica 10 places in this race.

In the 13 races that Kubica outqualified Heidfeld he bettered him by an average of 5.5 places; Heidfeld outqualified Kubica by an average of 3 places in 3 races.

Felipe has outqualified Kimi by a similar margin, still I don't see you complaining about Kimi's contract extension. Why this anger against Heidfeld? is it because he's German? Or because his beard? i really don't see why you don't complain about other but chose to pick a certain driver for nothing important, really, they don't give points for qualifying these days.

[tintop]

Felipe has outqualified Kimi by a similar margin, still I don't see you complaining about Kimi's contract extension. Why this anger against Heidfeld? is it because he's German? Or because his beard? i really don't see why you don't complain about other but chose to pick a certain driver for nothing important, really, they don't give points for qualifying these days.


Wow, when you are factually incorrect, you tend to resort to poo flinging fairly easily. I've got nothing against Heidfeld or zee Germans for that matter, lived there and work with them every day. I think that Kimi gets a pass being WDC and all, he can race well enough to compensate for his lack of qualifying pace, Heidfeld, not so much. I really think some itrospection on this issue would be more helpful than slinging false accusations of bias.

[pettersolberg29]

Good point ioan.

Heidfeld has outperformed Kovalainen in a McLaren, but out of Nick and Kova, I would imagine that almost everyone here seems to think Nick has done worse.

Nick, in a poor season, has beaten Kova, Alonso (although poor car) and almost bettered Kimi before Fuji.

[ioan]

Good point ioan.

Heidfeld has outperformed Kovalainen in a McLaren, but out of Nick and Kova, I would imagine that almost everyone here seems to think Nick has done worse.

Nick, in a poor season, has beaten Kova, Alonso (although poor car) and almost bettered Kimi before Fuji.

I almost completely agree with you, the "almost everyone seems to think" part is however a bit difficult to accept! ;)

Cheers! :)

[ShiftingGears]

Good point ioan.

Heidfeld has outperformed Kovalainen in a McLaren, but out of Nick and Kova, I would imagine that almost everyone here seems to think Nick has done worse.

Nick, in a poor season, has beaten Kova, Alonso (although poor car) and almost bettered Kimi before Fuji.

You would imagine that, but I don't believe it. I don't think many at all would disagree with the statement that Kovalainen has done a lesser job than Heidfeld.

[pettersolberg29]

Really? Fine, my mistake.

But no-one is ripping Kova apart like Nick and I don't know why. Is it 'cos he's young?

[woody2goody]

You would imagine that, but I don't believe it. I don't think many at all would disagree with the statement that Kovalainen has done a lesser job than Heidfeld.

I certanly don't. I think Nick's done a great job in most of the races to say that due to his poor qualifying he's ended up starting with a heavy fuel load in most of the grands prix.

Nick will be back near the very front next year.

[markabilly]

With these two, beemer will never be at the top. This says it all:


4. Alonso Renault (B) 1:35.769 1:35.461 1:36.927
5. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:35.623 1:35.216 1:36.930
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:36.238 1:35.686 1:37.083
7. Heidfeld BMW Sauber (B) 1:36.224 1:35.403 1:37.201
8. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:35.752 1:35.386 1:37.685
9. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:36.104 1:35.715 1:37.934
10. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari (B) 1:36.239 1:35.478 1:38.885
11. Piquet Renault (B) 1:36.029 1:35.722
12. Kubica BMW Sauber (B) 1:36.503 1:35.814

[truefan72]

Good point ioan.

Heidfeld has outperformed Kovalainen in a McLaren, but out of Nick and Kova, I would imagine that almost everyone here seems to think Nick has done worse.

Nick, in a poor season, has beaten Kova, Alonso (although poor car) and almost bettered Kimi before Fuji.

not true, there was an entire and lengthy thread on folks down on Kovy (including myself) for not really living up to his full potential given the fact that he is driving one of the four fastest cars on the grid. Heidfelds problems pretty much come from his head. he tends to toil around unless his job is under threat and only really performs when pressured. Most question his hunger and the fact that he hasn't won a GP yet.

The only reason BMW confirmed him for 2008 was to provided Kubica with the safety of a solid #2. I think Heidfeld has intrinsically accepted that role and all the trappings that come with it.

[markabilly]

The only reason BMW confirmed him for 2008 was to provided Kubica with the safety of a solid #2. I think Heidfeld has intrinsically accepted that role and all the trappings that come with it.


And that applies to not only Nicky but Beemer has accepted the safety of being a solid #2 for the entire team.......and all the trappings that come with it..............."no doubt that we will again achieve our ambitious aims with them in the team's fourth year" as sayeth Beemer

but it will not matter, as F1 will soon all have spec ferrari engines, and beemer will sell the team to somebody in China......

[Tumbo]

remember that BMW have put on hold any further development of their 08 car for quite some time to focus on their challenge next yr - unsurprising that the cars are down on the rest of the pack, Kubica was ratehr disappointed and made comments on this earlier in the yr as he felt it stymied any chance of a WDC

[truefan72]

remember that BMW have put on hold any further development of their 08 car for quite some time to focus on their challenge next yr - unsurprising that the cars are down on the rest of the pack, Kubica was ratehr disappointed and made comments on this earlier in the yr as he felt it stymied any chance of a WDC


and he probably turneed out to be completely correct.
If they had continued along their development and actually competed for titels in front of their sights not ones in the future, they hjust might have pulled this off.

So thumbs down to the BMW braintrust for casting aside a legitimate chance at the WDC and maybe the WCC this year to focus on next years car and competition.

[ioan]

BMW were right, they didn't have the chance to fight for the championships this year.
Since when know the drivers better than the engineers if they can or can't get more out of a certain car?

[truefan72]

BMW were right, they didn't have the chance to fight for the championships this year.
Since when know the drivers better than the engineers if they can or can't get more out of a certain car?

when with 2 rounds to go their #1 driver is still in strong contention to win the WCC and with a bit more development could have hauled in a bunch of points to challenge for the WCC, givne how often 1 of the 2 macs or Ferrari's didn;t finish in the points.

They made that decision I think half way through the season.

If they had continued their development they could have won in Japan, as their car was imminently better than renaults. Making the title race even closer.

IMO they should have thrown everything into trying to win it this year. They had an excelelent chance, but blew it to focus on their future instead. The best teams fight for what they can now and worry and worry about the next season as an aside or after the season ends ( both macs and ferrari's as well as all the other teams with means, usually have another group of engineering working on next years car)

But simply giving up on a valid title shot is inexcusable.

Last year with 4 races to go it and miles away from the WCC Ferrari could have easily conceded the WDC championship and started focusing on 2008. Instead they kept their heads down and plugged away, and with luck,opportunity and pace Kimi won.

Anything can happen, but surely if you don't try, nothing will.

[gravity]

I agree with you there. Throwing away yr current opportunity to win championships in favour of developing for a future one is madness. The counter argument, however, is that if Ferrari had thrown in the towel last year and rather concentrated on this year's championship, they might have won both 2008 titles with 3 races to go (and maybe still have won last year's ch'ships?).

We're all experts at what-ifs and hind-sights :)

[markabilly]

Today's race was just more confirmation of the beemer screw up.....FA running a car that is clearly inferior to the Beemer.......and where oh where were our little boys Nicky and the Kube.......well duhhhhh.

All the excuses don't change the facts.

[markabilly]

and he probably turneed out to be completely correct.
If they had continued along their development and actually competed for titels in front of their sights not ones in the future, they hjust might have pulled this off.

So thumbs down to the BMW braintrust for casting aside a legitimate chance at the WDC and maybe the WCC this year to focus on next years car and competition.
They never had a legit chance at a WDC title with those two drivers....

Today's race was just more confirmation of the beemer screw up.....FA running a car that is clearly inferior to the Beemer.......and where oh where were our little boys Nicky and the Kube.......well duhhhhh.

All the excuses don't change the facts.